PA Chair Abbas lays out first precise demands for Palestinian borders

i IS 40 YEARS SINCE THE 6 DAY WAR!! iSRAEL HAS GIVEN UP THE sINAI 3 TIMES--and all they got was a fake peace with Egypt. Egypt wanted the land and the OIL - they also knew they could not defeat Israel -So Carter's presure won,Begin had no choice .There was no country of Palestine , no gov't etc It was just land -Jews etc had lived there also - So why is it nowto be a State at the expense of Israel???

"Jordan can use the population, has lots more room than Israel---" Are you saying that it is Israel's goal to push all the Palestinians out and into Jordan? Maybe they'll leave voluntarily. What the heck if they don't, Israel can always bring out its hunk of junk tank the Merkava or maybe an F16 or two. Then there's the problem of what to do with over a million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens. Sterilization maybe? End of the Palestinian question.

...but all good things must come to an end! This post will conclude my correspondence with you as Daybreak and as Truth. Thanks for writing!

Jordan can use the population, has lots more room than Israel---It could become a major industrial power, similar to Israel---It needs educated people, and there are plenty among the Palestinian's who have nothing better to do that wage war...

You need lessons in honesty. Moreover, your presence on Talkback is pointless. Please show me one post you have written in which you demonstrate any knowledge of the subject on which you are writing. There are some posters whom I disagree with vehemently but I acknowledge their knowledgeability. You are not among them, which is no doubt why you spend half your time on Talkback seeking reassurance and attention from other posters who share a certain point of view about Israel and the Palestinians that you pretend to share but are in fact in no position to form an informed opinion about either way.

It is a start. More reasonable than "we are going to push you into the sea"

should be part of Jordan? Can't be...that the Palestinians should move into Jordan now and leave the West Bank to the Israelis? But I have read that Jordan is already 70% Palestinian population, what's left would be overwhelmed. Actually, they are all Arabs of the same descent, but the problem might be, is there room enough in Jordan? Every inch of the middle east is claimed, built on, lived on, claimed again...If I were a Palestinian living in the WB or Gaza, I would try my best to get into Jordan, actually...

Sorry for scattering it about like buckshot... (can buckshot be fatal if someone is shot with it?) ...but you do see my point; you ask me for something, and when I do get it, I am desperate for you to see it...so I put it everywhere. Another thing...can you write something like 30-30-30-30 when a subject is finished with? Because otherwise I just keep going on and on about it...sometimes you say, Final!

...the fakers you were discussing, recently someone said that Victor Hardman and Paul Harris are the same and quoted a post they said proved it, something about addresses. I think it was Viper said that Paul was pretending to be an Israel and he was Victor Hardman in Ireland...but I don't know the truth of it. Post-Its are a good idea, and I understand what you're saying about refuting what ballistic says, and her not providing sources...however, with all this, I still dislike racist namecalling, and I don't think that Misha- whoever-it-was should have used the word macacca...I googled macacca too, and it has many meanings, but unfortunately, since the Senator Allen comment, it seems to have only one meaning in use now. In fact, Misha in a post to me admitted right up front that he wanted to be insulting. But...insults are one thing; racist names are another.

"No, that`s not a personal attack on you; it`s a verifiable statement of fact" It's your opinion; and you know what they say about opinions, don't you?

I don't need any lessons on Talkback. I've been here quite a while now. But thank you anyway.

I seen your response twice before, not including this, which makes it three times-- I've replied twice---Let's try and keep it in one string if at all possible---

Forget memory, use a post-it note or scrap paper to retain the info...I know less now than I did before--I still have that string to Steve, I'll check it again---Not every suspicious poster requries a check, some out themselves when they write, making it obvious that they'e fakers--- Just yesterday, I ran across someone who wrote four posts, two from Las Cruces and two from "Seatle"...Same fellow two separate states and couldn't spell Seatle properly---

Palestinian's have received more than adequate consideration, it's called "JORDAN", land stolen from the Jews by the British and Given to Emir Hussein to create a Kingdom---

By this time I'm certain that you're aware that I won't tolerate out and out lies--I'm not corressponding, I'm refuting lies and distortions---I can understand various positions in a matter, but you can't tell me black is white and insist you're correct If I can see the color is black---When I ask her/it, to send proof of the statement, it heads for the hills---I'm certain you know that I'll always give a proof of link for any of my statements---

Scattered across the Internet, what you've used so many words to get from me what I meant about the West Bank on a mpa...you see the West Bank here?? http://www.teachinghearts.org/dr0imapisrael.gif

By the way, if you want a quick lesson in how things actually operate on Talkback, as opposed to your fantasies and lies, look at the constant personal attacks on Jeff Northridge in any thread and the relative absence of personal attacks in his responses.

Playing dumb is a polite phrase for what you are doing. In my post #413, of several DAYS ago now, I quoted Hannah to you, as follows: "clearly you are a very uneducated, unread, illiterate, true-believing, and, even worse, American dolt." But it doesn't matter, does it, Silvienne, that you are "referring to personal attacks on individual posters" and that that is exactly what that is and you've known that now for days. You don't care about the truth and have been ignoring it, stretching it, denying it, and violating it for the whole interchange with me and you'll keep on doing so in your posts and in your discussion with me because that is how you operate. No, that's not a personal attack on you; it's a verifiable statement of fact.

Well, you've proved my point. Called me "dumb", "need to take a course on whatever" in one post! Never mind. Hannah hates Israel and says so often and loudly. I am referring to personal attacks on individual posters simply because they are supporting Palestinians. Personal abusive insulting attacks on individuals. Not generic hating Israel posts like Hannah's.

Is the ghost of Assad!

I already have shown you such a post, Hannah's, so don't play dumb. It is worse than the one you point to. As to your evidence for three times the number of Palestinian posters, you need to take a course on statistics if you think that is evidence "just from counting them in various threads."

..about asking "Steve of Minneapolis" a Jewish question, because tonight I was reading a Talkback in which I saw a post from you to him requesting a reply and with a few Hebrew words in your post...now, he'd posted elsewhere in the talkback, but hadn't responded to you.... Typical of me, I can't remember now which talkback it was, but if I see it again I'll send you the link. Did you ask "Israeli Guy" the Jewish question, and did you get no response? Is that how you know he isn't? And then, somewhere else, I remember recently a woman pro-Israel poster saying to a guy who had a Jewish name, you're no Jew, and he posted back to her, Do you want the number of my (two Hebrew words)...See what I mean, she must have been testing him out too, but, typical, I can't remember what talkback that was in either... Do you know Shakespeare's "Othello", Ben...in which Othello says, "I remember a mass of things, but not distinctly"...that sums up my mind perfectly! Regards

My thoughts run away with me so much, it's difficult to remember to keep the subjects grouped together in their respective posts... I agree that the Jews have lived in what Christians call the "holy land" for thousands of years, ever since they were the Israelites, in fact, or the "children of Israel", as the Bible calls them. I was actually reading Judges in the Old Testament the other day and saw a reference to "Schem" (not spelled right) which I know is now Nablus. So that is many thousands of years of history in this region. But my point is that the Palestinians have lived there for several hundred years; at least, they were living there in 1922 when an Israeli state was first thought of...therefore, they deserve consideration, and not to be pushed aside as if they had no rights at all. Of course, that's only my opinion, and I know you don't agree with it.

"If you wish, I`ll send you copies of a couple of letters that were exchanged" Do you mean posts, or actual letters? If you dislike her so much, why bother corresponding with her? As you say, I've noticed and read some of it...

There are others beside "Israeli Guy" who attempt to deceive---When in doubt, I ask one simple question that ANY Jew would know the answer to---For instance, I asked Steve, of Minneapolis that very question, because he claimed to be Jewish, even though all of his writings are anti-Israel---Any true Jew would have come back with the answer, it's as simple as 1-2-3---As of this writing, unless it's posted elsewhere and I haven't run across it, all I hear is a vast silence from Steve---Guess what that tells me---???

Daybreak was being gentle, I have worse names that I can think of for Ballistic---She lies, and deceives--I've caught her time and again, so many times, that in fact, it's become rather boring---She has no scruples and will descend to any depth to put her point across---Surely, you must have noticed some of my correspondence with her---She makes claims and accusations, and when asked to back them up, she runs for the hills---Most of it is pure nonsense that she's made up on the spur of the moment--- If you wish, I'll send you copies of a couple of letters that were exchanged---I personally don't care if she's a hottentot or a Martian, I do care that she's an out and out liar---

Do me and yourself a big favor--Try and keep each post to a single topic, don't chain them together--Palestinians didn't exist until the Roman Emperor made up the name---It was intended as an insult and it was a designation for Gaza, not Judea & Israel---The Jews have ALWAYS, since time immemorial, lived in the area---When Rome took Jews captive, many still remained---The so-called Palestinian's are drifters that came into the area within the past few hundred years---Most came as laborers to work the farms of absentee Arab landlords, later they also came to work Jewish farms--- If Palestinin's had had any sort of civilization, there would be vestiges of their presence, dating back at least to the time when the Romans conquered Israel---that's what the coins, antiquities and TELS would have substantiated---Despite my repeated requests, NOBODY has given me valid information where they can be located----They don't exist because there never, ever was a land designated as Palestine..

I honestly assure you I wasn't trying to be "cute"..I'm far too old to ever be cute in any way; I thought you knew that... I can understand that you see the Jolly Roger of Israeli Guy from a distance..Jasmine Murphy said she posted from London, which I doubted, for the same sorts of reasons that you know Israeli Guy isn't one. However, of course, it may be true; I don't know. Yes, a home isn't the same as a public facility, so probably my question was a bit daft. My thoughts are not always easy to arrange or to articulate well. Regards

It's my assertion that there are about three times more pro-Israeli posters as there are pro-Palestinian posters just from counting them in the various threads. In one thread I counted, out of 12 posters, 2 were pro-Palestinian, other 10 were pro-Israel. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/911863.html you'll see my post commenting on it. The worst abuse I've seen so far is a pro-Israeli poster calling Ballistic, who is an African-American woman, "macacca", which as she said, is a racist slur. Show me a post from a pro-Palestinian poster that you consider contains a personal abusive attack on a pro-Israeli poster for an actual example of what you mean, please.

"In my post #423 I queried you concerning statistics---I guess you been so busy posting you haven`t had the time to respond to my requests--To refresh your memory and accelerate your response, here it is again" Ben, if you asked me something, when would I ever not reply to it???? The difficulty is to get me to stop talking/writing...But, what was my assertion...post #388 was me to Katherine someone about slagging off posts...did you mean in another thread/string? I posted in this thread to Daybreak examples of pro-Israeli abuse posts. But as for ancient coins or artifacts, are these supposed to support the fact that Palestinians lived on the land thousands of years ago? Because they didn't...the Israelites lived in the holy land in ancient times...

?We don`t know whether "Israeli Guy" is an Israel or whether Jasmine Murphy is a Jew?--- 1-YOU don?t know, I do, he?s sailing under false colors, and we can see his Jolly Roger from quite a distance---It?s really easy to detect a faker---Jasmine Murphy, there are Jews in Ireland, one was the mayor of a major Irish city--- ?You wouldn`t consider this to be racist or "anti" if someone posted it the reverse way around..."Jews on occasion when invited, non Jews anytime" 2- Of course not, my home is a private facility, not public---You have your friends, I have mine--- Does it also mean you`d believe a Jew over a non-Jew at any time, over any matter?--- 3. This doesn?t enter into it, it wasn?t discussed---I believe according to credibility, this isn?t a Court of Law---What does this have to do with the price of tea in China..??? A rather silly question, if you ask me--- I suppose I`d better answer my own question, much as I`ll dislike the answer 4- Of course you?ll dislike the answer, you were trying to be cute---

What is your point? I specifically told you I'd posted to condemn at least one pro-Israeli poster who was unkind. I haven't seen you do the same for any on the other "side," though they have been brought to your attention. Now where is the evidence for your statement that there are three times as many pro-Israel posters here as pro-Palestinian? If you don't have any evidence don't bother to reply. I don't have any interest in more evasions from you.

"You really ought to concentrate why the `Israeli Guy" falsely claimed to be a Jew" We don't know whether "Israeli Guy" is an Israel or whether Jasmine Murphy is a Jew. "Non-jews on occasion, when invited---Jews at anytime, just knock on the door..." You wouldn't consider this to be racist or "anti" if someone posted it the reverse way around..."Jews on occasion when invited, non Jews anytime" Does it also mean you'd believe a Jew over a non-Jew at any time, over any matter? I suppose I'd better answer my own question, much as I'll dislike the answer. Still, you've told me what I wanted to know...

You are referring to "sickening stream of blatantly anti-semetic posts here", and I am referring to personal attacks, such as: "you are stupid, vile, hateful, disgusting, a bitch"..sort of stuff. Would you give me an example of a post that you consider "blatanly anti-semitic", so I can read it and tell you what I think?

"Wrong, Mr. Forest. Your condescencion drips venom from your fangs. Your Palestinian-favoring bone needs scratching, and not all who post here are easily categorized. Of course, that wouldn`t fit into your neat little boxes, so just ignore reality, neh?" Post from a pro-Israeli/zionist to a pro-Palestinian. Nice, yes?

#435 Are the current occupiers of "Israel" the real indigenous people of the Holy Land? No. How can Europeans be indigenous in the Middle East? They should all go back to their original homes -- in Poland, Russia, and other parts of East Europe. And one day they will. The indigenous people of Israel (and the whole of Palestine) are Palestinians and the Middle Eastern Jews, who lived together for centuries as sisters and brothers until Zionism was created.

In my post #423 I queried you concerning statistics---I guess you been so busy posting you haven't had the time to respond to my requests--To refresh your memory and accelerate your response, here it is again--- #388 Silvienne Name: * BEN JABO City: USA State: Do you have any actual statistics that you`ve compiled to justify your assertion???--Actually, I see an awful lot of pro-arab threats and distortions of historical fact--- I`m still waiting for anyone to supply a few items that I`ve requested, time and again--- Sites of Palestinian "TEL", ANCIENT COINS, ARTIFACTS.---The must be of Roman era in Palestine or before---Piles of donkey or camel dung aren`t acceptable---Just maybe, YOU can let me know where to find the things I`ve been so desperately searching for---

Non-jews on occasion, when invited---Jews at anytime, just knock on the door... You really ought to concentrate why the 'Israeli Guy" falsely claimed to be a Jew---We have so many that assume obviously false Jewish type names to do their postings, not having the courage to use a name indicative of their true ethnicity---

By the way, (regarding my previous post to you), "Ashkenazic" means European Jew, so you can't fall back on your we mean Zionists not Jews line here. In addition, let me mention this. When a pro-Zionist poster made what I considered a very unkind comment to Indrajaya at the time of the earthquake in her country I posted (under the name of Trust, which I was posting under at the time) a response to the pro-Zionist poster saying I thought his post was "sickening." You of course do the opposite, and just try to pretend as if the sickening stream of blatantly anti-Semitic posts here are no problem; yours is the typical tactic of just accusing one side of evil, which is typical of small-minded people everywhere. I've spoken out against bigotry on both sides.

Where is your evidence that there are three times the number of pro-Israeli posters here as pro-Palestinian, Silvienne? You want to see racist, try this: "As opposed to your diluted, mongrelized zionists (through Khazar, aka Ashkenazim blood )." Posted by Hannah 15/07/07. Check the lineage of the accusation that Jews are mongrels with impure blood. That is classic racism. My larger question to you, Silvienne, is do you feel any constraint whatever to respect FACTS and not make up whatever you feel like in your posts?

Joe, In a perfect world you would be right. However, as recently as 2006, Hamas leaders have stated IMPLICITLY that ANY *peace* deal is just PHASE 1...that they intend to take ALL the land via whatever means necessary. Hamas has, to Western media said one thing, but to Arab media quite a different thing. Fatah has also done essentially the same thing. Their main strategy is that in order to crate a bulwark for future attacks, they must make peace, taking what they can get for now, with the ultimate goal of destroying Israel piece by piece, if necessary. This two faced mindset is indemic to the Palestinian leaders How can Israel negotiate with the likes of that? Keep in mind this is the LEADERS of the Palestinians talking...not a few people on talkbacks suggesting it. Israel has made enough attempts at peace with the Pals, to NO avail. Heck, Israel gave back ALL Sinai to Egypt, yet, with all their checkpoints THROUGHOUT Egypt, Hamas still manages to smuggle missiles into Gaza.

It sounds like a good deal so long as everyone's security is guaranteed. I think both sides want peace, the outline for a deal are clear, it's time to do it. Iran has said they will support whatever the Palestinians agree to, and my guess is that will be the attitude of all surrounding countries. People are tired of war and want to move on. It's time.

I am not going to be hosed, as you put it (such good terms you use!) but as you see I have been gnawed by several zionists here, and lastly, I have posted a question to Ben Jabo concerning his post #426, and I really would like an answer from him to my question.

I don't quite see the point of your post. Jasmine Murphy was telling Israeli Guy he's no Israeli, I was telling her she's no Jew. Do you really want to take sides on this one? You write this: Any Jew, regardless of nationality or country of origin is welcome in my home, to sleep in my bed and eat at my table" To be clear on this: you are referring to only Jews, is that right? And simply because they are Jews?

This thread, calling himself Star of David, #399. Good example of a personal attack from a person I know nothing about and have never posted to. Pointless, except for the purpose of slinging abuse. Still, if it makes "Star of David" feel better, then we won't stop him.... Thanks for writing again! (and again...)

#399 to me from "Star of David". Again, no content, no reason for writing, except the desire to post a personal attack. Very silly. And yes, I am from both London and Connecticut. You, also, have provided me with an excellent example of an abusive personal attack post from zionists. Thank you for the example!

personal attack you made on me, calling me "remarkably simple-minded". Now, where was the need for that? Can you explain? If you want to know about my place of residence and England, you can ask me. You don't need to call me "remarkably simple minded". You just gave me a good example of what I mean by personal attacks by zionists.

I'm speaking of personal attacks. Here, I'll give you examples of what I've read from zionist posters: "jew haters antisemite burn in hell you dont deserve to be alive stupid filthy arab mental defective spewing hateful bitch...." for a start. Seen all of those from zionist posters. Lakshmi I haven't seen post personal attacks, although she has been called a "Paki" by a zionist poster, which is the exact equivalent of the "N word" to Pakistanis. Mark Lincoln and the Master Race? Never saw that, but it isn't the same as a personal attack against one person. No, I don't think they are telling the truth, so there's no need for your sarcastic comment.

My dear Daybreak, we are speaking of proportionality here. There are three times the amount of pro-Israeli posters here as there are pro-Palestinian posters. And I have never seen a racist term used by any pro-Pal. Whereas, I have seen "dirty arab", "paki", "macacca" used by pro-Israelis. Everything in proportion, my dear.

Fed Up to Ivar:"You just utter piffle.Akram can each you manners to begin with.How are things in miserable Estonia?I`ll bet you are dying to be rid of the many Muslims who have overran your country.But,please don`t come whining here to us now will you? Boo Hoo !!" Now, there's a profound and thought-provoking post. Did you just step out of kindergarten, Fed-Up?

I hope that if the government enters peace talks with the Palestinians that involve return/exchange of land, it will be wise enough to see to it that Palestine will not become a base for anti-Israeli warfare. This must be a condition of any peace deal. 100% security vs. land and property arrangements. One of the reasons that Clinton's plan did not work was because Arafat refused to declare the end of the conflict. It seems that there is now Palestinian leadership, supported by other Arabs, that is willing to do it. Whether it has the means and power to carry it out is a very serious question. I am sure it will be addressed before any withdrawal takes place. The principles of security and return of parts of occupied lands are fundamental for any peace deal. A positive approach, involving give and take, is preferrable to a nuclear war. With Iran continuing uninhibited in the development of nukes this might be the only other alternative.

Colonization is outdated. Since the 1900s, in fact. If Israel doesn't realise this, and quick, the settlement programme will put an end to all peace plans.

"I`m REALLY getting sick of the people DEMANDING Israel do this or that for peace" Ah, really? I'm getting sick of the Palestinian people having no state of their own and losing more and more land every day. So, you tell me: what would you like to see as the future of the Palestinian people? Crouched behind the separation wall, hiding in lockdown in the WB, starving in Gaza, every day getting killed by the IDF? What would be your plan for them? Do you have one? (They are not going to disappear, either) Therefore, Israel had better deal with the situation.

"Peace comes to the peaceful" Ivar. War comes to the peaceful Ivar. How many men of peace taken from their Homes and died in WWl & WWII. ? How peace was won after the last two World Wars? Isn't that to convince you that no Peace can be won with out WAR to sweep away the excrements of humanity. "Stealing the neighbors property on the pretex of security" Ivar When the West Bank was under Jordaian Control with Jordaian flag hoisted all over the place; those whom you call 'neighbors' never raised a fingure and never claimed a title to anything that was called Palestine ? Why now ? Isn't it because those 'neighbors' are people of hate and double face ragbags ? Trying to build a country with lies ? "fig leaf" Ivar. Jews used 'fig leafs'to save themselves through out the ages.That was the only what was left to them in the nasty world before they have their State.Israel the only shield that can save them. Now,go and look in your History Book and burn your Dictionary.

And PLEASE DO tell me.. How did Israel 8STEAL* anything? They miraculously won a war they didn't want in 1967, and in that victory they captured land which theArab states AND the Palestinians REFUSED for 20+ years to even negotiate for return of. In fact, Egypt REFUSED to take Gaza back even though Israel offered it to them. So get off your IGNORANT hose and get some education on the TRUE situation in the region.

Ivar..PLEASE DO tell me this... 1. Why should Israel withdraw to the 67 borders after a war NOT of its wanting? 2. Why should Israel withdraw after 40 YEARS waiting for a true peace partner? 3. Do you SERIOUSLY believe the PA, either Hamas OR Fatah REALLY want peace when they a. Rfuse to disavow the ultimate goal of the destruction of Israel b. Say 1 thing to Western press/reporters, and a totally opposite to their compatriots c. STILL use Suicide bombers to do their dirty work as a means to show that if the negotiations don't go the way THEY want that more suicide bombers will attack. 4. Why should Israel believe the Pals really want a fair and ust peace when only Israel is expected and held to the Oslo agreements/accords. Certainly, the PA hasn't upheld a single principle of the accords. 5. Why should Israel give up a city, Jerusalem, which was 2/3 Jewish for 300+ years PRIOR to 1948? I'm REALLY getting sick of the people DEMANDING Israel do this or that for peace..

You just utter piffle.Akram can each you manners to begin with.How are things in miserable Estonia?I'll bet you are dying to be rid of the many Muslims who have overran your country.But,please don't come whining here to us now will you? Boo Hoo !!

abbas already has a "palestinian" state. he should be negotiating with jordan where he and his people have come from. but of course they dont want them. the jordanians know from experience what trouble makers these people are. these "palestinians" as they cal themselves should all be deported. much like any other soverien country does when there illegal immigrants in their borders. especially when they are terrorists.

Don't let Ben Jabo hose you down with his usual BS about maps and coins. Ben Jabo has NO evidence he has ANY relationship to those DARK SKINNED people living there long ago except his say so. If that is the standard, well, then, I am King Tut's long lost niece and therefore I am entitled to bring all my homies from all over the world and take over Egypt where my people once lived. How do you think that would fly? That is really the weakest argument. They should just fess up and say 'nobody wants us and we have been thrown out from other countries for the bad behavior of our brethren and now we would like to live here in peace'---they would be respected more for truth than BS. Then come the threats--if you don't bomb Iran for us, we will, and if anybody objects we will nuke em. If you don't like our trouncing the neighbors, you are antisemitic. If countries complain about, they are Nazi's. Let's kill all the Arabs. Why? Because they we want land and they object. Regards.

Israel WAS behind it's borders on 5/15/48,when the Arabs attacked, they lost the 1948---That resulted in the Rhodes Armistice Agreement, which the Arabs violated when Nasser closed the Suez to Irael shipping in 1956, resulting in the '56 War, and the loss of more land by the Arabs---In 1967, Syria & Egypt attacked again--(If you wish, I'll post the entire sequence of events for your perusal) Once again, the Arabs lost---Then we proceed to the 1973 Yom Kippur sneak attack by Egypt & Syria, reminiscent of teh Japanese sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, where they lost once again---Get in through your noggin, Arabs just don't want Jews around no matter what the borders are---Don't forget, all you have to do is ask, I'll gladly sent your information from "Neutral Sources" that don't have any axe to grind---

Akram, you talk of "peace for peace", yet it seems you've never consulted the term even in the dictionary. Peace comes to the peaceful. Gunslingers meet their early retirement in boot hill. Rave on! The world knows the bellicose and the warmonger shamed by his all too revealing "security" fig leaf. For peace to come to Israel, Israel will have to accept dealing with its "security" from its own side of the 1967 borders. Stealing the neighbor's property on the pretext of "security" has worn too thin, and too small to serve any longer as a fig leaf to cloak thievery.

"Where is the voice of Israel" Cipora Hear it Cipora from Chick . And join us with your Voice:Jordan is Palestine. Now is the time:"Not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Regards.

Chick. Thank you for the statistics 'Jordan is Palestine' and there is NO other solution. Only fools believe on 13% of the land Israel can have a future ! I have been saying that even for my donkey. History is there to prove it. If the Government of Israel will ignore it, it is a Sin and will pay for it. Time the Government will say that with its Louder voice.

Kath. The age of the Children Intifatha has gone. Thank G-d. What Abass said in such a pomp and cermoney is what the World heard before from many loud mouths. As you said the counting from Zero really and trully started NOW. Israel must use the opportunity. Hamas declared War by words of mouth,only few weeks ago. Abass declared War by his 'demands'. Israel reply must be 'you want it ? Come and take it !. Only War can bring Peace. That is all there is in History. The Country that won many Wars will win the last War. Things has to go this way Kath, when one trying his luck with liers. And the Truth can only show its face when lies burst. Is that Wisdom ? May be.. If only Olmert burst..

Only He,who is peace gives peace!

Where does Abbas get off yapping about his "demands"? He's in no position to make any kind of demands,it should be the other way around. Israelis will no doubt shrug off the threat of a 3rd intifada,this is old hat to them..actually I thought the 2nd intifada was still ongoing. He makes demands that he knows cannot be accepted by Israel which indicates he prefers the status quo.

Allow me to tell you why---It is the land of our forefathers, dating back 5768 years by the Hebrew Calendar---All our prayers are directed to Jerusalem---Any Jew, regardless of nationality or country of origin is welcome in my home, to sleep in my bed and eat at my table--I, have at times, hosted war wounded for the weekend so they shouldn't be lonely in the hospital, of course they were ambulatory enough for me to bring them home--- Unlike the Arabs, we don't have inter-factional bloodletting---- Unlike the Arabs, we direct our prayers to Jerusalem, Arabs don't---Jerusalem is our Holiest place, to the Arabs it's of recent interest and they only direct their prayers to Mecca---These are the reassons we refer to it as "Ours"---

Whether or not it is clear to us, everything is unfolding according to GODS will, not ours. The Bible speaks of God hardening hearts and hiding things from peoples eyes so that His great plan works as HE wills. I think this is what is going on now, so have no fear! GOD is in control!

Do you have any actual statistics that you've compiled to justify your assertion???--Actually, I see an awful lot of pro-arab threats and distortions of historical fact--- I'm still waiting for anyone to supply a few items that I've requested, time and again--- Sites of Palestinian "TEL", ANCIENT COINS, ARTIFACTS.---The must be of Roman era in Palestine or before---Piles of donkey or camel dung aren't acceptable---Just maybe, YOU can let me know where to find the things I've been so desperately searching for---

So,why is the United States hosting this sellout in Annapolis?

Part Two: to infiltration from the East. Does anyone doubt such infiltration would not occur? Would the United States come to the aid of Israel should it again be invaded? Probably not since that might hurt our "image" in the Arab world. Infidel Israelis, Americans and Europeans will not dissuade those sworn to destroy Israel. President Bush had promised former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon he could expect U.S. support to maintain defensible borders. In the plan now being discussed, Israel's borders would be indefensible. In all of this, the United States is trying to prop up Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. But Abbas is a figurehead, manipulated by the terrorist organization Hamas, which virtually controls the Palestinian territories thanks to democratic elections. Caroline Glick writes in the Jerusalem Post: "Over the past week, Abbas announced his adherence to maximal Palestinian demands from Israel. These include the full transfer of sovereignty over the Temple Mount to the Palestinians; the complete surrender of Judea and Samaria to the Palestinians; and an Israeli acceptance of the so-called 'right-of-return' that would force Israel to accept millions of foreign Arabs as immigrants within its truncated borders." Why should anyone expect anything else when the real intensions of Israel's enemies can be summed up in the "phased plan" for the destruction of Israel expressed in 2000 by Palestinian Minister of Supply, Abd El Aziz Shahian: "The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent arrangement, based on the premise that the war and struggle on the ground is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land ? for the Palestinian people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the '65 revolution." The "'65 Revolution" refers to the founding of the PLO and the publication of the Palestinian Charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel through armed struggle.

There is a saying in the Talmud, "Tifasta meruba,lo tifasta, tifasta me'at, tifasta." That's what we should tell Abbas. If you want it all, you'll get nothing. If you want to compomise, maybe you'll get something.

SELLING ISRAEL DOWN THE RIVER. Paraphrazing by Cal Thomas: That's why next month's announced "Middle East Summit" in Annapolis, Md., should be viewed as one more installment payment in the sellout of Israel and of American interests in the Middle East. While the United States continues to struggle to shore up democracy in Iraq, the Bush administration ? like administrations before it ? proceeds in undermining the likelihood that the region's first democracy will endure. At every negotiating session, Israel is pressured into making concessions for "peace" and receives more war in response. Mostly this is because of the wishful thinking in the West that has replaced sound policy. Why should the Palestinians make concessions when they are drawing closer to their objective of eradicating Israel by throwing stones and bombs and stonewalling negotiations? In an address to the Israeli Knesset, President Shimon Peres reaffirmed the flaw in Western thinking: "?even if there are some who express doubt at the ability of the Palestinians to achieve peace, the impression must not be created that Israel has doubts regarding the need and the willingness to achieve full peace." So it's not about hard bargaining resulting in the preservation of Israel with defensible borders and the cessation of terrorist attacks, it's about "impressions"? No wonder Israel's enemies are emboldened as never before. While details of a "joint declaration" by Israel and the Palestinians on a final status agreement remain secret, some information has leaked. One report has Prime Minister Ehud Olmert preparing to divide Jerusalem by allowing Arab East Jerusalem to come under Palestinian control. The holy sites, now administered by Israel and open to all (which was not the case when Jordan controlled East Jerusalem prior to 1967), would be internationalized. For 40 years, Israel has provided security for the holy places. It is doubtful an international force would do as good a job protecting these sites from terrorists (think the Taliban and the destruction of ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan and regular attacks on Christians, their churches and schools in heavily Muslim nations). According to one report, "the drafters are planning to call for a withdrawal by Israel to the 1967 lines," thus making Israel more vulnerable than ever to heavily armed Arab states and Palestinian enemies and leaving it completely exposed.

Like it or not, most Americans don't read Haaretz or other mideast news sources. They read AP or McClatchy or NYT, or other US sources and form their opinions based on those sources.

Have we done with this article which at the end of the day Abu Mazen the "mouse"will get nothing out from Olmert,and ssmae old,story. The latest on the BBC was that now Haniyeh is deciding to embrace Abass.As if this was not premeditated owing to the oncoming convocation in the US.If the palis think that Israel,or their citizens will accept such ridiculous demand(DEMAND NO LESS)Hurrrumph! they will still have to begin to count from zero and never even reach number one. The objective is so much not as the asking that I find offensive,coming from the everlasting BEGGAR TOO...

"Abass lays out first " Kath. What do you expect ? When Olmert is always fast asleep. Time for others to wake up. Or we end up all waking up in Palestine.

Haven't seen the Ziff book. Khalidi quote is p. 28 of his _Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness_ (New York: Columbia Univ. Press, 1997). Said by most accounts brilliant, but an English professor, and not judged by adherence to truth. They're more praised for creativity and persuasiveness. Same with other fields like psychology. Even poli sci seems less fussy about facts. By contrast physicists and historians, like Khalidi, receive more pressure to stick with objective truth. King Hussein of Jordan excused Nasser in 1967 saying everyone should know he hadn't meant all those dire threats. Saddam's Info Minister was notorious. Imams used to regularly deny Jews had anything to do w/Temple Mount. In ME perhaps expectation of truth is different.

Lynn. But He already have one Dead Zone in Gazza !! How many 'Dead Zones' does Abass needs ? I suggest that he goes to the Zone of the living in Jordan.

Here is one recent non-abusive post from a pro-Palestinian poster: "clearly you are a very uneducated, unread, illiterate, true-believing and, even worse, American dolt...." (posted by Hannah, 09/10/07). But I guess Silvienne has just missed Hannah's posts in this vein for, oh, how long now?

There is no point to answering you. Just keep in mind that the issue was about illegals. The question of legal residents did not come up. Honestly, I have no idea why the average person would want to move to Gaza, but tat is an entirely different issue. p.s. I am not all others, but you consder very many to be fools--nearly all others.

You worry about one or two roads beween the West Bank and the Gaza Strip carving Israel into pieces. I presume that anyone who worries about that is equally upset about the many roads, fences and checkpoints that are carving the West Bank into many more and much smaller pieces.

"The more you read these threads, the more you`ll notice that the pro-Palestinian posters really don`t write very much abuse, threats, or namecalling." It's the old master-slave thing where one group claims supremacy over another group and treats them like their nothing. This time when the slaves rose up they were met with attack helicopters instead of nooses.

There is NO WAY!

I can only repeat Sandman's message to you: "and how do explain How the Vietamese communists countinue today a policy of neo-colonization nibblling away at Cambodia by annexing sizable portions of its border, costlines and islands through illegitimate treaties with their puppet regime in Phnnom Penh. Their latest method is a "development Triangle" scheme that involves flooding three northeastern provinces of Cambodia and three southeastern prvinces of Loas with Vietnamease settlers. Nor that Vietnamese army has established coffee, cashew and rubber plantations in the Laotian provinces- the latter vovering more than 7,000 hectares. China and Tibet, Russia and the occupation of 3 Japanesse islands, Indosesia and Boreno, and and and But Jim knows "its no longer the rule " victors to retain land. What nonsense there JIMBO

You're remarkably simple minded. Why do you write CT as your place of residence when you come from Britain? Same sort of reason and explanation for me.

Your lists of the crimes of Israel are hearsay. Most of them can be disputed. If you're a man of conscience you should blush to believe undocumented lies. Meanwhile the crimes of the Palestinians are clear for all to see. Their main crime is the continued violence, which feeds the state of war. Part of you knows that as well as I do. But you flip flip flip and you write with whichever of your Jekyll/Hyde character is currently uppermost.

You have to read authentic Mideast News from Israel to get the proper perspective and what Palestinians are insisting upon now is becoming a 'bottomless barrel of goodwill gestures'. Ahmad Querei or Abu Mazen is known through his Book as a 'Holocaust Denier' and if one can believe in his change of heart is quite another thing. Apart from that he is obviously too weak for HAMAS who is waiting patiently in the wings. However, the truth is that the Palestinians, who as you must know are simply Arabs, have their undisputed Goal of the final 'destruction of the State of Israel'in mind and Israeli Leaders have to watch out for those many goodwill gestures which may ultimately become an unwarranted and dangerous gamble. Be aware that Palestinians want the Whole Area for their New State of Islamic Palestine and this is only the First Step towards gaining their ambition.

Not very much abuse or name-calling from pro-Palestinian posters? Liar. Try Hannah (whose posts you have already seen many times), for starters.

Indy does quite well too. I'd put click in that category too and how about Mark Lincoln calling Israel 'The Master race'. Perhaps you think they are all telling the truth and so you discount their diatribes.

I don't know where you get this 'supposed' figure of 50% but I'll go with you. In 1922 we were promised PALESTINE as our homeland by the British. They gave a huge hunk of it to the Arabs, calling it Transjordan --in payment for the tribes helping them in World War two, making the biggest contributor the King. Quite some kickback, wouldn't you say? What is left is much less than the fifty percent you spoke of and the Arabs still want their cut of that. So who is being GREEDY?

A way needs to be found for both peoples to live side by side in peace. Abbas and Olmert both know this, and that Abbas' "demand" is just his opening bid. You can be sure Olmert already has a counter-offer in hand. These negociations are going to be long, hard and emotional for everyone. They shall require compromises which will enrage extremists on both sides. But it's better than unending war, tears and bloodshed. Get used to the give-and-take, so that one day we can all say: Shalom. Salaam.

Good Point Guido. The cost of starting numerous wars IS priceless and thats the Palestinian cost. Then again perhaps we can arrive at a cost for each suicide bomber e.g. 10 square kilometers per attempt and 100 square kilometer per killing. By the way when is France going to give back the pacific islands to the original inhabitants? When will France stop being a colonist? What price did France pay?

Do u have some sort of a jasmine fixation you nincompoop (oops, that's so English). You've been angling for a bite with her across several forums on haaretz. Mate, is this some macho fantasy played out for ha'aretz readers (that's so Australian)? Many people speak and write like many others, man. Chill out (that's so American). Besides, u from London, Connecticut? Dill (english again). Is the bulb beginning to glow yet, Silvienne????

theres already a Zionist state its called America

Indeed, you are absolutely correct, Everyone who is less knowledgable in History should read your Post 164 and to know the TRUTH. PRE 70 AD BORDERS ARE ISRAEL'S UNDISPUTED AND AUTHENTIC BORDERS and not what the people are striving to say. The Palestinians who are Arabs can go back to where they belong in the 'Never Never Land' of the Desert where they actually belong as their very conduct today speaks for itself.

What the Palestinians are proposing doesn't look al that bad from press reports in the US. I guess it depends on how it is being expressed. FROM AP Palestinians open to possible land swap ABU DIS, West Bank - The Palestinians are ready to yield parts of the West Bank to Israel if compensated with an equal amount of Israeli territory, the lead Palestinian negotiator told The Associated Press in an interview Wednesday. Ahmed Qureia, a former prime minister who has dealt with five Israeli prime ministers during 14 years of failed peacemaking, is trying again with No. 6, Ehud Olmert. (more) The link - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071010/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_22;_ylt=AhiX1E0MWJCs18QSRFevRFYUvioA

You are not listening, Joshua. Conquer and keep used to be the rule. But no longer. People the world over are demanding that governments change that attitude. It is a consequence of the rise of the third world. So a government like Burma stomps on its people. And people the world over scream bloody murder. They can no longer hide behind good intentions/propaganda with the internet watching. Hear O Israel....

But there is a flaw in this proposal: SY: "I propose, as a pre-condition to holding any negotiations at all, that the Palestinians commit to five years of no violence." The problem is, of course, that the Isreali settlers will see exactly where their priority lies, because at the end of that 5-year grace period their little "happy time" will end. So what is THEIR incentive going to be during that grace period, Scharker? It is - surely - to grab, and then grab some more, because they can't loose no matter how the Pals respond: 1) The Pals do nothing, in which case the settlers will be bloated with land and wealth when the 5-year grace period ends or 2) The Pals respond, in which case the 5-years-delayed talks get pushed out ANOTHER 5 years, and then ANOTHER, and then ANOTHER. Either way the Pals will end up with nothing. So why should they do nothing? They may as well go down swinging than go down without a fight. Wouldn't you?

Israeli Guy, ignore Jasmine Murphy...she says she's an Israeli yet there she is living in my hometown of London! Time she went home!

"believe me if peace of the whole country depends on a few settlements these pious people would be the first to give up their homes willingly" Because it certainly doesn't look like it, does it, with new outposts being built...

"I`m not a vampire, just an ordinary Israeli monster" Why aren't you living in Israel, then? You're always referring to "our" this and that, shouldn't you be at home?

stop pretending. Nobody is taken in by your kind of rubbish. you`re no Israeli. Why do you always refer to "our" children and "our" land when you don't live in Israel? I'm from London and you use British slang. So you're not taking anyone in with your load of bollocks either, now are you?

Greetings, Bro Antony Dr(Rev) Timothy Tow is my Pastor and the Principal of Far Eastern Bible College, Dr (Rev) Koshy is our lecturer cum pastor of another BP Church. I (sincerely) very happy to meet you, very thrill to meet Messianic Jew. No gentile will understand the extreme joy of a Jew who found his Messiah that he and his people had been waiting for 2 Millenniums. Once a BS leader told us, that when a jew found his Christ, he will be even more fervent than we proud gentile who thought that we are 2nd or 3rd generation Christians. And this messianic jew will love Christ unto death, his zeal will be beyond us. Many people think that evangelicals “worship” jews, actually we simply acknowledge you are still a peculiar people in the L-RD’s heart, an apple of his eyes, a royal diadem (Isa62:3). If G-D’s willing, next year I may be going to Israel with Pastor, which church are you in? you must have a hard time been a Christian there, Baruch HaShem Adonai!

"Palestinians are branded the terrorists, but I have heard more racism and threats in this thread from Israeli citizens than I ever heard from the other side" The more you read these threads, the more you'll notice that the pro-Palestinian posters really don't write very much abuse, threats, or namecalling. Regards

You are a victim of unrelenting propaganda purchased and paid for by the oil monies unconscionably obtained by holding the whole industrialized world hostage! It would definitely be helpful for you to go back to the history books (legitimate ones) and learn about who occupied this land, legitimately!Palestine was a name conferred upon it by the ancient brutal Roman occupiers. Before them it was variously known as Canaan, Judea, Samaria. After the Roman occupation, there were Palestinian Jews and Arabs. The land was stolen FROM the Jews and they bought much of it back at VERY STEEP PRICES!

I'm a Christian,but we don't force anybody to believe in Jesus.I think you're confused with the spanish inquisition and the crusaders-they persecuted the real christians also[they're called heretics].we christian fundamentalists are not many either.I think you're talking about roman catholics.we're different from them.I was raised a catholic,but not anymore.

Hello, Peter! Long time no talk! I have it on good authority (in Israel) that a group of Israelis AND Palestinians are beginning to work together to get a petition going about peace. They are not politicians. They are just plain folk like you and me. Silent majority, huh? Well, maybe so. They don't represent anybody but themselves. But they are beginning to stir. And one of these days, governments will have to listen. These are the people who will bring about peace if anyone does. Best regards, Jim

sought for Palestinian state is consistent with previous media reports, eg. Peres stating earlier that a 100% fulfillment of land exchange was likely with border adjustments based on 1967 boundaries. But the most important statement of Abbas's was, " A border adjustment, on the basis of the same quality and the same amount, we have no objections." There's some flexibility here even before negotiations begin and this is very good.

Not so fast Chaim - don't get worked up. Maybe Olmert is not as much of a fool as you think. In politics leaders must sometimes say things they do not really believe or will have to act on. The situation with Israel is particularly onerous - never in history has a defeated belligerent set the agenda and made the demands that the palestinian arabs do. This only applies to the State of Israel, of course as far as the world is concerned..

Regarding those ancient wars, who said that you had it coming? I didn't. I said that it is time Israel learned an historic lesson: that religion and politics do not mix. Mixing religion and politics was the rule 3000 years ago. But no longer. The Muslem fundamentalists are still practising that principle. But when Israel advocates that the Lord of Hosts will lead her to victory, or that she has rights over a land which belonged to a kingdom which went defunct 3000 years ago, she is falling into the same rut. I want her to wake up and start WORKING for peace instead of just talking about it in the abstract. Let the Islamic fundamentalists have their narrow minded fundamentalism. Israel doesn't need it. She can do better! I expect her to do better! Someday she WILL do better! But, Sigh! How long will it take?

Somehow extra dunams, approximately 210, are needed by Abbas. He wants the dead zone between Israel and the West Bank. Bad idea!!!

Cipora. That reminds me of the voice of the Italians in the days of Garibaldi: "Who would lend me six pennies to buy a rope to hand the Pope instead of Garibaldi" The voice of the people is always the last voice People write history not leaders. That is how Israel survived. P.S My vision: Jordan is Palestine. Am-yesrael-hai.

terrorist acts against their govts, led by none other than ---- Yasssar Arafat! Don't believe me? Fine! you may choose to remain ignorant or just look up Black September when King Hussein of Jordan had to mass murder over 10,000 Arafat led Palestinians for their constant seiges to protect his country! During the 67 Arab, Israeli wars, Israel conquered Jordan! After the wars, Israel offered to return the West Bank & Gaza back to Jordan but the Jordanian govt. refused, as it would bring back the Palestinians! How relieved they were to just dump them on Israel to deal with! NOW THEY OCCUPY ISRAELS LAND! So what does Israel do? THEY MAKE PEACE OFFERINGS TO THE PALESTINIANS! Is there ANYONE who can deny this or the fact that NEVER has a single Arab nation even cared or dared to treat the Palestinians with such human diplomacy? never ever will you mr abbas or any of your prior murderous criminal thugs ever get a stitch of jewish land.take your mythological culture back to jordan!

Well I'd be very surprised if the United States suddenly decides to turn its back on Israel. Because what it comes down to, is that both political parties in the PA are both TERRORIST organizations, its just that one is willing to negotiate and one isn't. But they both have their militant wings, and they both have no problems shooting at Israelis or each other. So it would be really stupid of the US to suddenly decide to turn its back on the one state in the Middle East that actually protects US interests in the region, and turn to a nation that probably wouldn't mind seeing the USA destroyed. Remember, Palestinians were cheering and dancing in the streets on 9-11. So yeah, I'm pretty convinced that United States support of Israel at this point in time is pretty much a certainty, and won't change. So yeah, perhaps this possibility of the US not backing Israel in the United Nations could happen, and maybe Hamas might decide to recognize the Jewish state, but I highly doubt either one.

Abbas tried the'moderate' act. No more shows left for the Palestinians. Time for Israel to turn the table and tell the truth: The truth is lies dosn't pay. The truth is there is no land to give. The truth is land was already given. The truth is Jordan is the Palestinian land that was given in 1922. The truth is Israel can't pay for a Brtish imperialist 'game'. The truth is the Palestinians have no right to govern their own people. The truth is the International Community must feel sorry for the Palestinians and save them from their own rulers as they saved the Iraqi from Saddam. The truth is the Jewish roots in Israel are deep enough to wether all storms. The truth is time to stop rhetoric is now. The truth is Olmert has served his'dumb role' and time for him to bow & leave the show. The truth is Israel must vow Abass is the last Palestinians Actors. The truth is Israel needs a leader who can tell the truth and nothing but the truth andso help me G-d.

to Portray Abbas , AP quote " Abbas left the door open" and " Abbas would be willing " so to portray Arafat terror living legacy as flexible , And "Abbas offered" as if Abbas owns anything at all . As for AP quotin' Abbas claim " of full Israeli withdrawal from all territories captured in the 1967 Six-Day War." , Is twisting the UNSC 242 wording . And AP quote " His aides have said he has agreed in recent talks with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to exchange West Bank land Israel wants to keep in a final peace deal with an equal amount of Israeli land. " , While Olmert from the Kenesset podium during the winter opening session said not such a thing contrary to AP quoting Abbas aides or should i say Meretz/Beilin as Abbas aide , spokesman. AP quoting Haaretz quote from David Baker is correct , This AP report is nothing less than what Meretz/Beilin is always arab brainwashing Israel public opinion whenever , over any airwaves . AP may as well seek an interview with master disaster President Peres who'll say 'to get rid offf the territories' parroting arabs extortions , propaganda , braiwashing , Or better , an AP report as a 2007 rehersal of the Camp David 2000 Summit , All the above when Shin-Bet monitor Fatah double game insurgency in Judea with Samaria , Iran nuke threats looming and Arab League seeking mideast territorial unity , hegemony . And as a death blow to US Road Map , quassams still hit Sderot , And 4 police files against Olmert plus the upcoming Winograde final report , As if not enough , in exchange to keep their protectorat over Mideast arabs ,the US and Britain are selling weapons to Mideast arabs , and they both endorse Arab initiative wich is war with respite called peace to rest , rearm train and again wage war meanwhile persians and arabs keep the pressure by the daily arab urban terror attrition, Example of Egypt this so called 'moderate" US Ally empowering Hamas in Gaza . AP report , yeah right drugg to drowse , Annapolis shmapolis ,opening door to Global Jihad to set foot in the West Bank ,

If Israel, in her at most willing `give or take moods` had left the WB today, tell me Otto what would Israel do after the first rocket had landed in TA. How many dead on both sides would there have been to retake WB? So what amount of `give or take` with the best possible intentions on BOTH sides will accomplish or take care of, if Israel relies on the part of the society that not only can not prevent the simple rocket from being launched, but from the ideological & religious standpoint considered an enemy if it even tried? Please consider that I had given you a very small layer of my shpill to chew at, with at most primitive & common of the examples. The situation (& I of course) could get much more complicated than that.

Where have all the postings gone? Long time passing Where have all the postings gone? Long time ago Where have all the postings gone? Slowman ate them every one When will he ever quit? When will he ever quit? Where have all the censors gone? Long time passing Where have all the censors gone? Long time ago Where have all the censors gone? Gone to party every one When will they ever work? When will they ever work?

Of course something has to be given to Pals. I would insist on assisting them with anything that society requires & than some-after they become the world`s common society. And they will not become such society until radical Islam & Jew hate chapter, when the best & safest offer for Jew is to relocate to Alaska, is in control of the Arab street. And it can not be defeated until it is considered to be normal, righteous behavior, pride & honor of any past humiliations (& there were many) absolutely has to take place before any reconciliations will, & its ranks are constantly filled with so many new hate sermons & new Farfours. Show me the single historical fact when the hard core Arab world had willingly & happily committed acts of pure friendship or beneficial to the state of Israel? When do the people understand that any give or take, no matter how much wanted, envisioned or desired, without stable platform could lead to either nowhere or actually more damaging situations?

In a a new confidence-building gesture to Abbas, Israel agreed Wednesday to grant residency permits to thousands of Palestinians who have been living illegally in the West Bank on expired visitors' visas. Great--ha ha ha--why not give him all of Israel-that'll make him really confident!

... but on Earth, I am afraid, the picture is entirely different. "Israel however did not grant official residency status to another 1,500 Palestinians residing illegally in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. "After Israel had declared the Gaza Strip as a hostile entity, it decided to postpone any decision regarding its [illegal] citizens"." - Tosefta (quoting Haaretz) An Earthling would conclude that LEGAL residents (such as new-born Gaza babies) ARE granted residency by Israel. Our Martian Resident does not get it. "The question is why should Israel grant such papers to Gazans, especially "illegals," when there is no Israeli authority in Gaza to grant such papers..Israel has no obligation to grant papers to illegals, as no other country does." - CJ Cone You have to start from facts, that Israel does have the authority and uses it. Then theorize. Not theories, and then looking for some facts that fit and ignoring those that don't fit. "Tosefta, you really think all are fools" - CJ Cone Really, Cipora. You are not everybody. Not everybody is from Mars with a profound inability to understand Earthly reality.

If a full withdrawal from the land captured by Israel in 1967 would be the outcome, then it is absurd to negotiate with the Palestinians only; and not isolating Syria while taking the Beirut Platform of the Arab League from 2002 as a frame and make peace with each and every Arab state. Talks with the Palestinians only and directly are worthwhile if there is a land swap, and not a dismantlement of the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem and Male Adumim. If that's the price, then take Beirut 2002 and full normalization as the frame.

Mr Lincoln. "Abbs is trying to position his "demands" where Hamas stand" Mark Lincoln Where your post 155# stand from your other posts calling Abass a 'desent man' ? Unless Abass a Hamas spy or his days are numbered. The Palestinians tried their acts in all plots. Now the plot of the naked truth. Will you do the same Mr Lincoln ? No one can servive lies.

Avraham, have you forgotten that you cant get a permit to buy a gun? You cant carry a gun for self-defence unless you live in Judea or Samaria/ are a taxi driver/have an army rank of at least Major General (aluf) or have a jewellery shop. Even regular army officers with years of professional experience can no longer get a gun permit. On the other hand, nearly all the Palestinians have weapons. Most families try to buy an M-16 for about 70,000 shekels. Others make do with Kalachnikovs. Even their children 12-13 upwards have rifles. For them its more important than buying food.

That would be fine if the Arab nations return the lives of Isrealis that were killed when Arabs invaded Israel en-mass............!

Howdy Otto; The only way that a physical connection across 40 Km. of Israeli sovereign territory between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would be possible would be with a tunnel buried below maximum tree-root depth (about 10 m.). Any other option would pose too great of a security risk and allow any two-bit terrorist to infiltrate into Israel proper with impunity. The conditions would be: 1) Israel retains sovereignty over the passage, 2) The PA or its benefactors pay for the construction, maintenance, and operating costs of the tunnel, and 3) the tunnel is rigged for demolition if one single terrorist, weapon, or piece of contraband transits it. If those conditions are unacceptable, then the Palestinians can go around through Egypt and Jordan.

Ben Yabo, Julius Romanof - neighbors: you're cool! Good stuff. BUT: 316 comments offering talk, talk, talk. Do we feel better now having pointed out how abysmal this situation and its participants are? No one has indicated here or in the wider press any intent to organize a (peaceful) public demonstration against the planned decimation of our Land. In a country characterized by so many strikes and public outcries about other issues, this is truly extraordinary - and frustrating. We can blahblahblah from here in the kingdom of Bushwack, but only you in Israel can vote with your feet with our support. Oh yeah, no one has the answer to my earlier question about a class-action suit. Well, I think the answer is that you have to be able to prove damages to all the members of the class. I suppose if Olmert/Abbas are successful in damaging all of us, Israeli and Diaspora, then there might be some interest in doing something about it. Then again, I guess not... 300+ more yadayadaya

I responded to your posting but obviously the Haaretz censor doesn't want anyone to read what I wrote to you. It was nothing libelous. Just the truth.

Tell your stupid stories to the marines. There are no such people called Arab Palis. The real Palestinians are the Jews. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

There are so many responses because of the sensitivity of this issue. There is nothing to worry about. Hashem is in control. Also, a big rabbi, a great rabbi in Israel said Moshiach is coming soon, right after Israel gives to the arabs downtown Bat Yam, eastern Ofakim and western Modi in. This great rabbis name is Rabbi Abbas, ab b b b bas

UOU AND I AGREE ABOUT MOST OF WHAT IS LAID OUT, BUT THE TERROR ATTACKS, AND ROCKETING HAS TO STOP -FOR THIS TO FLY. WOULD YOU AGREE?

Ibrahim, you are correct that there are exreme positions on both sides. Sharon, Rabin, Dayan, and many other Israeli greats realize that the Palestinians have rights. A Jew has no right to impose on a Palestinian that his home is Jordan. If Jews want the Arab world to accept the concept of Zionism, then Jews have to understand that the Palestinians exist and are entitled to independence and dignity. Israel must address the refugee and settlement issues. But my friend, majority of Jews are convinced that the Arabs/Islam/Moslems/Palestinians want the elimination of the Jewish State of Israel from the Middle East. The honor given to the suicide bomber confirms this. If Israel feels that every Arab want her destroyed, how can Israel make the necessary concessions to the Pals?

"If you don`t think that giving up Gaza was a step towards peace then it`s okay.' No Margie,giving up Gaza was about "demographics' Ie, having less Palestinians to deal with.My how stupid you can be sometimes.

No need to say more

Hi Tosefta, In your opinion who has now sovereignty over West Bank?

The Jews, of which you pretend to be one, weren't consulted either---The Partition Plan was to have been based on the Balfour Declaration, which the British bastardized when they gave away most of Palestine to the Emir Abdullah, who later became King Abdullah the first of TransJordan, which changed it's name to Jordan.---Brits paid off Abdullah for his not breaking their hump by not acting against them in The Great War---Before you talk, look at the maps of the British Mandate as it was given to Britain, and how they altered it to suit their needs---Check out Ottoman Empire Maps of the late 1800's, pre-mandate, mandate and post mandate--- You're bellyaching about Palestine, think Trans Jordan, that where the bulk is--

Because if Israel already knows the Palestinian demands, why are they building more Jewish only roads and settlements in the West Bank? They're looking to create facts on the ground so if both parties sit down, Israel can bargain and take more of the West Bank. This is why I believe the summit will fail. I have always agreed with Abbas's proposition, but I can see why groups like Hamas are laughing at him. Either he's blind, or he wants to carve his name in history books as the one who got the Palestinians their state. Sorry President Abbas, we need a viable state, not us being a weaker party at negotiation tables and taking scraps like dogs. Oh well, OFF TO THE ONE STATE SOLUTION.

Cowards the lot of you! Abass is a pimp,he demands?Wow! The mouse is asking the cat what he should eat? What a shame,he will just have to live with his Fatah folowers and rue the day,the sneaky Holocaust denier! Be certain to give him a bit of cheese and keep it the trap ready where he will fall and get caught.

... but on Earth, I am afraid, the picture is entirely different. "Israel however did not grant official residency status to another 1,500 Palestinians residing illegally in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. "After Israel had declared the Gaza Strip as a hostile entity, it decided to postpone any decision regarding its [illegal] citizens"." - Tosefta (quoting Haaretz) An Earthling would conclude that LEGAL residents (such as new-born Gaza babies) ARE granted residency by Israel. Our Martian Resident does not get it. "The question is why should Israel grant such papers to Gazans, especially "illegals," when there is no Israeli authority in Gaza to grant such papers..Israel has no obligation to grant papers to illegals, as no other country does." - CJ Cone You have to start from facts, that Israel does have the authority and uses it. Then theorize. Not theories, and then looking for some facts that fit and ignoring those that don't fit. "Tosefta, you really think all are fools" - CJ Cone Really, Cipora. You are not everybody. Not everybody is from Mars with a profound inability to understand Earthly reality.

Yes, let's start with 1982 Lebanon--Arfat's PLO was pulling cross border raids from the shelter of Lebanon---That's why the IDF went in, to clean them out--Lebanon harbored terrorists, and as such she was responsible for their actions--- All we have to do is going back to 1948, when the Arabs attacked Israel, in defiance of the UN Partition--If you wish, I'll be glad to supply plenty of "IMPARTIAL" information in support of that hard cold factm all you have to do is request it---It will be sent by return mail-- You might always want to check out Tel Hai, 1920, and Arab Riots of 1929 & 1936--

Jews always remained---Those that left, were taken as captives by the Romans--- Will you be good enough to point out any SINGLE TEL, PALESTINIAN COIN OR ARTIFACT THAT PROVES AN ARAB PRESENCE at the Time our Temple was destroyed.--It's a relatively simple request, surely with your expertise, you should be able to come up with something---

Palestinians willing to trade Land for Peace. The Palestinians are willing to trade a Promise of Peace for land of Israel. We have seen what what they do with land given to them. Gaza handed to the Arabs is now a training site for Terrorists, and a site from which to fire Kassam rockets into Israel. The Arabs need additional land in Judea & Samaria so that their rockets can land in parts of Israel which is currently beyond the range of their rockets. The Peace they offer is after the destruction of the State of Israel. When have Arab leaders fulfilled their responsibilities according to the proposed Road Plan for a 2 State Solution? Disarm the Terrorists of their weapons. It was a staged presentation in which old, unfit for use, rifles were turned in. It was done so that they could receive the promised cash bonus, and their name removed from the Wanted Terrorist list. They were now free to attack Israelis without fear of being arrested until they commita new offense-afree ride

Well, no Israeli had the balls to tell arafish, that phony pedophile, where to take a hike. And I assume correctly that little olmert has even less inclination to tell this jerk where to get off. At the Battle of the Bulge the germans demanded the surrender of the town and the U.S. commander, Gen. Mcauliffe eloquently responded, "Nuts!" Israelis would do well to study that.

Hi neighbor, I live in Bensalem---Now with that aside, until the investigations into Olmerts financial finaglings and his other underhanded endeavors, have been completed---He shouldn't be allowed to sign anything---The man has no shame---We can assume he's got a tidy nest egg tucked away someplace out of Israel---

if israel can have a right of return, then so can the rest of the world, thats if the rest of the world thinks this is acceptable, the americans can give back the land to the indians and so can canada, autralia can give the land back to the aborigines and so on, does that sound fair to all those in favour of the palestinian land takers and loud mouths ?

what he's DEMANDING is thatIsrael revert to the old "Greenline" of 1949, the 1949 Armistice positions---Which the Arabs violated in 1956, 1967 & 1973---That didn't work then and won't work now--- It's the old story, "Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me"---No more fooling around---

The people will pay the price when Olmert is gone..The security of Israel is no where in all so called 'Peace negotiations' ! Abass 'lays out' is just for grabbing land. There is nothing in it about the first item in Israel Agenda which is SECURITY. Abass is not qualified to guarantee Israel security. Next month in Annapolis Israel must make it clear that talk about Security must be the first item in any agenda. The Palestinians can not guarantee security for themselves, how they can guarantee security for Israel ? Abass must be striped naked in Annapolis. Abass must be turned; either asking asylum in Israel or like Czar before him face 'the night of the long knifes in Gaza'. Annapolis must be the moment of TRUTH for the Palestinians 'politics of lies'. When lies are pushed aside Peace can be negotiated and achieved. Now the Palestinians including Abass are still in the 'politcs of lies'.

Who are you threatening? What are you talking about? You are not Palestinian, you don't have to speak for them. If you really want fight, go in Israel and let's fight IDF.

Unfortunately it's not factually accurate. Ben Jabber: "Israel didn`t grab any territory---she conquered it after having been attacked time and again--- The Arabs decided they didn`t want their share of the Partition Plan and attacked Israel instead" You appear to have omitted the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian villages and the forced migration of thousands upon thousands of Palestinians from the homes they had occupied for centuries.

Nice to hear from you, Cipora, even though we may disagree. Nobody will argue with you about the security needs, and none of us knows what territory will b e offered to the Palestinians in lieu of the settlement blocks, but something has to be given. In any case, if your scenario of Jordan and Egypt does not work out(and I don't think that the two concerned countries are interested), some kind of passage between the West Bank and Gaza will be needed. There was talk about a tunnel or an elevated railroad, but something needs to be given. For Israel's security sake I would also oppose a land concession that would cut the country in two, but I believe that even today's unpopular government would not agree to it. I was glad to read in some other post of yours your support for peace with the Palestinians. I also liked your analysis of the fundamentalist Muslim groups.You showed real knowledge of the topic.

CJK: "The question is why should Israel grant such papers to Gazans, especially "illegals," when there is no Israeli authority in Gaza to grant such papers." The AUTHORITY does not have to be located inside the occupied territory; it simply has to exist. Do the Israelis *have* to supply a travel permit to anyone in Gaza who applies? No, of course not. Does this discretion to refuse such a request prove that Isreael *doesn't* have authority over travel permits? No, of course not. It proves the opposite; anyone who WANTS to leave Gaza needs authorization from the Israelis, and without that authorization the person ain't going nowhere. CJK: "Israel has no obligation to grant papers to illegals, as no other country does" Which proves that Israel has the AUTHORITY to grant those papers, and she EXERCISES that authority every time she says "Yes" or "No". Tosefta is right and you are, frankly, arguing Tosefta's case.

Palestinians.

at the map of the Partitioned of PALESTINE and then come back about irresponsibility. Israel Homeland was suppose to be 50% and today they've been allow to keep up to 78%, don't try to be too GREEDY. will you.

Mr Olmert is also right to say that Negociations should be between our two(Israelis/Palesrinians) parties, and I got the GOOD feelings that each one knows as how much to give and take from each other. They should take the courage to do a good deed for their respective constituents, and do it rather quick, as there is MOMENTUM in Peace presently,and we are definitely tired of this long standing conflict, so non of you two should miss this UNIQUE opportunity. Goodluck to both of you,sensible men. The prompt result of your hard work WILL make MILLIONS HAPPY people in ISRAEL and PALESTINE. Salaam/Shalom

Evident in this first foolish sentence: D: "I always thought that Palestinians demanding things from Israel was funny, I mean if you really think about it, Israel doesn`t have to give them anything." Oh, yes it does. It is dependent on US support to maintain this occupation, and without it Israel will face unbearable pressure to get out without ANY compensatory agreement with the Pals; the worst of all possible worlds for Israel, because it makes the last 40 years pointless. All the US has to do is stand on its hands in the UN SC and there would be NOTHING that Israel could do to prevent UN sanctions bringing her economy to its knees. You are like so many other zionists; you regard US support as unquestioned and unquestioning, and never ask wether there may be a limit to US patience. D: "I mean if you really think about it" Yeah, maybe you should actually try that one day, Drew.

I think first on the agenda must be security.If this can not be dealt with then we can go no further. Olmert is a very weak prime minister the faster he goes the better for Israel. Even Barak is better and he is an idiot.

I agree with you totally....unfortunately, it is very unlikely to happen that way! Radical Islam is basically very anti-semitic and is not going to lie down peacefully. The question is do you make "peace" with these people hoping that eventually the culture of hate will change or do you keep on with the constant to-ing and fro-ing of talks on then off, then violience and bloodshed, then talks again? I think you have to make peace with whomever will make peac with you and deal with the biggots as a seperate issue.

You have your history absolutely right. The early Zionists determined to have a Jewish state with as few Arabs as possible. It isn't hard to find the quotes of the founders of Israel which indicated that the land was to be for the exclusive use of the Jews. Harry Truman, not a Zionist, supported partition because as he said and I paraphrase, "I don't have a large group of Arabs to answer to." The US put pressure on third world countries in the UN to vote for the partition even as several of Truman's advisors cautioned that the partition would lead to major problems in the Middle East. Had the country been allowed to become a bi-national state we well might have the problems we have today.

But there is also the prefix 'honourable'. BTW have you read Abu Sitta's Atlas of Palestine.It is the most detailed, thorough,authentic account of the events of 1948,inEnglish.10 years in the making.Available in all university libraries(reference section).I also saw a moving piece by him 'In praise of Nabka'.Do a search under Sitta Abu and you'll find it in the first page of entries.

The offer to swap land as reported in the US press looks quite reasonable. I guess it is how you want to spin the story.

And ended up as an occupying power as a result. It can only EVER be an occupying power whilst the Palestinians refuse to sign any paper that says Israel can keep it. This article shows that even Abbas - the most compliant Palestinian negotiator Israel will EVERY get - simply will not sign such a document. So what does Israel do, Gilbert? Hunker down behind a wall that gives it a large chunk of the West Bank, and hunker down for the NEXT 40 years? Nothing changes; she will still be "occupying" that land without any legal title to it. Why not accept that reality, and agree to THIS demand of Abbas' if HE accepts that there will be only the most token Right of Return? Israel then gets something for nothing, because she is "giving up" something that doesn't even belong to her, and doing so in order to avoid taking back refugees that she is, indeed, obliged to take back. It's called "diplomacy". Israel really should try it one day.....

are making demands!

llan leave the superpower alone and don't accept its and outside money and weapons. We will be happy to leave Israel alone.

theirs! Hamil,arafat was bribed by israel,how else did he amass that fortune?But now israel is looking at a different player altogether& I don't mean the quisling abbas.Re:Mohamed,he only broke agreements when the other party first did so.In this context,it is israel who is keeping bad faith,both with the Palestinians and the UN !

Mitch you must be getting your facts from talk back radio. Israel has colonised more than three quarters of Palestine and has gerrymandered the rest into small prisons. Israel has no intention of making peace - the latest land seizure in the West Bank by the military is a pointer.

This story is also being reported in the US by AP. Of course the spin is totally different. AN EXAMPLE: HEADLINE: Palestinians open to possible land swap BODY: ABU DIS, West Bank - The Palestinians are ready to yield parts of the West Bank to Israel if compensated with an equal amount of Israeli territory, the lead Palestinian negotiator told The Associated Press in an interview Wednesday. etc. The link - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071010/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

The Zinosist have already colonised the land. A small corridor connecting Gaza and the West Bank - Israel could build a tunnel underneath it or bridges over it, or Abbbas could be allowed to build a tunnel connecting the regions - is not impossible. All this is mere diversion any way. Israel has demonstrated it does not want peace by bombing Syria and grabbing more land in the West Bank this week.

for a 'greater Israel.' It ain't gonna happen! Eventually, Jerusalem will come under international control, the Palestinian people will be no longer live under Israel's brutish occupation, and Zionist immigration to Israel will cease. Most if not all potential Jewish/Zionist immigrants to Israel, are already living peaceful happy lives in their country of origin.

If Abbas can`t deliver meaningful peace for a five year period, then why even talk to him about a "Land for peace" deal? Because outside of genuine, realistic peace on the ground there is `PC` peace, `morally correct` peace, `even fantasising about it helps because it gives impression that we care` peace, `vage attempts at peace that could be enough to be called peace on the way to our other goals behind it` peace. There are so many versions & explanations, you can grab several on any given day & be proud of your knowledge & reasoning.

Abbas does not represent thePalestinian people. Giving your land away to him is like giving your land to Santa Clause. Also, Israel must state up front, Jerusalem is and will never be on the table. There is only one Jerusalem;no East or West. King David and the Jewish people built this city;not Arabs.

Precise demands(demands mind you)! I said in one of my response which did not surface(if at all)is:The mouse is ordering the dinner for the "cat"hurramph! By the way Jacob,I think I'll skip the wine if you don't mind,and in the meantime concentrate on the salad...Bloody rubbish and an unbelievable nerve of Abu Mazen the "holocaust"denier. Let him first amend his thesis,stop his Fatah cohorts,the katyushas and the rest of the inconsequensial demand and go back to his drawing board and even then NO DEAL ESPECIALLY ON WHAT HE THINKS HE WILL GET?NOT THE DEMIZE OF OUR ISRAEL Abu Smazu!!

1967 'borders' never existed. That was a ceasefire line where the armies halted when a panicky world called to Israel to stop its advance in wars started by their greedy opponents. As a border it is totally indefensible and will only lead to more conflict.

e m Wworry not,we are not all foolish enough to fall into this category.Only the other whining ones perhaps who are not on our side of the camp.The whole article stinks and it is a big joke to even having to dicuss it here wasting our breath to this unacceptable notion....

Howdy Tosefta; The CIA World Factbook (which is pretty damned accurate) states that the total land area of the West Bank (as defined by the 1949 armistice line and which would include East Jerusalem) is 5,640 sq. Km. and that the land area of the Gaza Strip (as defined by the 1950 armistice line) is 360 sq. Km. for a combined total of exactly 6,000 sq. Km. It is highly unlikely that Abbas would be including the water area of the West Bank in the Dead Sea in his figure of 6,205 sq. Km. since that would amount to 220 sq. Km. and not 205 sq. Km. The Gaza Strip has no territorial waters since it is not (nor is a part of) a sovereign state. It looks like Abbas is referring to 205 sq. Km. of "no-man's land" which lie on the Israeli side of the Green Line and not on the "Arab" side of it. It doesn't make any difference anyway. There is nothing sacred about a temporary armistice line and those who try to change them into permanent borders without an agreement are the fools.

Joshua And the music plays on... I do not concider them our brothers nor our cousins thank you.They seem to think by sweet words our desires will be assuaged.It will definitely will not. Philosophy truncated or not and stopping at introspection which includes Israel's demize at their convenience is not on the cards thank you Ibrahim...

Sounds like an offer Israel can hardly afford to refuse.

Sado-macho Lakshmi? Getting pleasure from the threats?

Although I find myself agreeing with you on the facts more often than I do Jeff Northridge, I sometimes question my own judgement in this respect when I read your boorish and childish rants about "blockheads" and "stupid bores". Continuous ad hominem attacks as virulent as yours usually reflect nothing more than inarticulate rage. And why exactly do you expect other readers to accept your ex cathedra pronouncements as to who is/is not capable of understanding your wisdom? Make your arguments and let us decide as readers who is more convincing. Mr. Northridge may be right or wrong on particular issues, but in refraining (by and large) from responding to the personal insults that seem to pass as debate for you he certainly wins the maturity points by a long shot.

Very moving peace but why must the Arab Nations want the 1% that Israel is on. Just take your brethren to Jordan or Saudia and peace will ensue.But your Arab Muslim brethren kill you and enlave no less than what they intend for the Jews after "PEACE" comes.

The beggar knows and is asking the maximum and at the end will get just a KICK IN THE PANTS. The audacity of the man,and never changes with hissame demands and if Olmert is stupid enough then we'll know where he shove Abass and his cohorts at the first opportunity he gets. That is Olmert has any gumption before he squanders any further than he has done up till now.What fool Olmert is and I hope they throw him out without further ado....

I am with you on this. Do not let him/her intimidate you. You are aware that the symbol od Dan was the snake?

Not feeling too well today. I would think that you would be ecstatic with Abb(asses) pronouncements or did he burst your bubble by reiterating his and his predecessors well warn theme or as the Chinese would say (THEIR Salami Tactics). Be well aware that the Orthodox and settlers are not budging even one inch not for you, not for Elmer Fudd and especially not for Abb(ass) And MA CHERIE BLOW yourself. ......and please stop using a FEMALE name.Cobra or Viper would be more fitting

Speaking of handouts....110billion U.S.$ and still countingto israel.Next up an additional 30 billion in military aid.

First of all, it is completely unnecessary. There is no "safe passage" connecting US lower 48 with Alaska - PA doesn't need one either. Nor are the 2 disconnected parts of Oman joined by a "safe passage" (look at a map). Second, no UN resolution or any int'l law can/would require this; it was part of the mad (and discredited) fabtasy of Beilin and Peres; PA has no "right" to this at all. Third, only feasible route is through the sensitive Shikima watershed valley, protected, even Israel doesn't build there - environmental suits would tie any plans up in court for decades. Fourth, nearly impossible to dig a tunnel or deep sunked roadway through active aquifer like this - cost would be 10's of billions, plus billions/yr. more to remediate damage; nobody to pay, and elevated highway cost is more prohibitive. Lastly, its never going to happen with Hamas in control of Gaza, and they are there to stay. PA has ZERO ability to deliver on Land-for-Peace. No PA state, no "passage".

Never heard of such a stupid idea as to cut our country in half,WHAT? I think time has come for Olmert to go join his son and daughter in the US and leave a better P.M to do a decent job before we go a wondering over yonder.What a silly proposition and i was not surprised when I just came and by just reading the headline was enough for me to form an opinion and just hope the Jewish population will rid themselves of this puppet called Olmert,and the sooner the better..

If no one in the Israeli government sees the behavior of Olmert and Ramon as treasonous, subject to impeachment, what is the possibility of a class-action lawsuit against them by Israel-loving Jews in Israel and the Diaspora? There has got to be a way to get the public to stop yakking their heads off for the purpose of showing how "smart" they are and DO SOMETHING to fix this mess -- before it's too late! Yeah, my body is here, but my heart is over there. And when I come back to Israel next spring, I want to speak Hebrew, not Arabic.

NOW THAT IS REAL CUTE.admonishing one of your own SS members.WOW. And we even ceased to be Land Thieves. All with one declaration by you. Are you starting to get scared that Elmer Fudd may actually give Israel away and you will be sent packing back to the States by your Arab "friends". Do not worry it aint gonna happen.

I have noticed you had been chastising the Arab world for not exposing Israel enough. That is not entirely so. They had been playing the same game with Abbas & Pals, they had played 7 years ago with Arafat. Using the chance of US President, at the end of term preoccupied with the historical attempt of reshaping ME, to lean on Israel & `bite the bait`, than `pool the bait` back at the last moment & hang Israel high & dry with the label of `preclusionists` to peace. The problem is not the effort on their part, but the desired effect of the past had not been there, because firstly the card had been played before & generally the entire game of sacrificing Pals to combat Israel had been going on for so long. More so, the world wide pro Israeli forces had also increased & treating the `game` differently, not allowing it to be played so freely. Overall the lack of desired, expedited effect simply makes an impression on the very impatient Israeli haters & basher that it is abandoned. Not so.

From column B. Meanwhile, if you could bring the soup and salad of the day while I look at a whine list. Public procamations of demands are all well and good, but have no real substance till the parties sit down at the table for real negoations. Abu Mazen, leader of the Palestinians, is there to represent his constituancy, hence his maximalist demands. Of course, missing from any of his commentary are the responsibilities he plans on pushing and offering to Israel. Again, not a surprise, nor a big deal. The supposed 'UN backed claims' are just more boilerplate rhetoric, which are held up as holy writ or worthless depending on POV. But at the end of the day, the negotations and whatever paper filings are filed, are meaningless if there is continued violence. Preening and primping for the cameras is nice, but won't bring forth a realistic agreement if Qassams continue to fly at Sderot and suicide bombers wait with jackets ready for the next round.

Palestinians are branded the terrorists, but I have heard more racism and threats in this thread from Israeli citizens than I ever heard from the other side.

Thank you for the invitation but that is not my lifestyle and I am also married so my wife would not approve. Keep dreaming anyways.

Well Jasmine I hope we throw out Olmert if he adheres to this foolish idea and the sooner we get rid him the better for Israel. I hope the citizens are not going to fall into this precipice for which they will surely die.

Intelligent people understand cause and effect. Israeli occupation and oppression is in a large part responsible for the rise in Islamic Extremism. The Israel occupation has used oppression, violence and state sponsored terror against Muslims and Christians for 60 years to advance its expansion. Tenacious love, peace and serious honest negotiation is the only solution. IB in Christ

Every day I see that things are getting worse. For the government of Israel to even lend an ear to what Abbas has to say,let alone demand,is absurdity at its highest level. This excuse for a human being,this man that was the architect of the Munich Massacre,this man that wrote his doctorate on the fact that The Holocaust was a myth..this inept little creature who cannot even keep Gaza under control is going to demand from Israel. And the most absurd part is that Israel is dealing with him..Have they lost their minds..is Olmert in such a hurry to get a Noble Peace Prize and then run to Paris? Maybe someone can tell me...since when does the victor take orders from the loser? Since when do the victors return "all"to the losers? Are we going to have to start over again with the palestinians because we all know in our heart they will not be satisfied until all of the Jews are gone.Remember the brave soldiers who gave their lives for the liberation of Jerusalem? They must be crying in heaven

Suppose abbas goes on a search and destroy against hamas, lets say he kills 5000 of them, and someone asks him what he expects to get for this , what is his answer??? The point being, once there is an agreement then he has something to hit the freaks over the head with,ubtill then he would look like a collaborator and would only weakne his capacity to act.Also even with an agreement implementation can be dependant upon disarming the gangs, but their is no impediment to an agreement per sea.You are putting the cart before the horse.

Those words are very hate filled. You paint with a broad brush. Educate yourself about the realities in the Holy Land, and don't believe everything you see in the news, some is true, some is not, and a lot is deceptive. IB in Christ

Command all strangers to live at peace under Israel's sovereignty or leave for Jordan , Iran or Saudi Arabia . CEASE BEING UN,UK,EU,RUSSIAN,CHINA,USA,ISLAMIC NATIONS , SACRIFICIAL LAMB AND WHIPPING BOY FOR ARAB/ISLAMIC OIL . STOP PLAYING GAMES WITH ISLAMIC TERRORIST MURDERERS WHOSE CONSTITUTIONS DEMAND THE ANNIHILATION OF THE jEWISH PEOPLE . G-D AND HIS WORD WILL NOT CONDONE THIS TREASON , TREACHERY , ABOMINATION OF GIVING AWAY HIS LAND INHERITANCE AND ALLOWING A MOON god IDOLATROUS STATE TO BE FORMED ON G-D AND HIS WORD'S LAND . THIS IS A PRELUDE TO THE JUDGEMENT OF THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH . MAY G-D AND HIS WORD SHOW MERCY IN JUDGEMENT .

Okay folks, is it possible for anybody to be as thick as lakshmi or is it a contrived act???? I mean this one even has the neo-revisionists running for cover to keep a distance. I think ha'aretz should establish a poll on it lol.

Well at least your end game remains normal, I was starting to wonder given the growing hysteria of your posts.Heres a hint, support abbas 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% he is the only way.

We are talking about taba-geneva.lets get on with it already, everybody knows what the deal is.

POOR OVI... BECAUSE OF YOUR KIND OF QUITERS, THE 6 MILLION WALKED IN TO THE GAS CHAMBERS LIKE LAMBS! BUT THAT WAS YESTERYEAR. IF THE 1.5B MUSLIMS DECIDES ON WAR, THEY'LL WIN, BUT NOT MANY WILL SURVIVE TO ENJOY "VICTORY".

... but on Earth, I am afraid, the picture is entirely different. "Israel however did not grant official residency status to another 1,500 Palestinians residing illegally in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip. "After Israel had declared the Gaza Strip as a hostile entity, it decided to postpone any decision regarding its [illegal] citizens"." - Tosefta (quoting Haaretz) An Earthling would conclude that LEGAL residents (such as new-born Gaza babies) ARE granted residency by Israel. Our Martian Resident does not get it. "The question is why should Israel grant such papers to Gazans, especially "illegals," when there is no Israeli authority in Gaza to grant such papers..Israel has no obligation to grant papers to illegals, as no other country does." - CJ Cone You have to start from facts, that Israel does have the authority and uses it. Then theorize. Not theories, and then looking for some facts that fit and ignoring those that don't fit. "Tosefta, you really think all are fools" - CJ Cone Really, Cipora. You are not everybody. Not everybody is from Mars with a profound inability to understand Earthly reality

Howdy Tosefta; The date for the last update to the CIA World Factbook page for the West Bank is given as 10/4/07, but the figure of 220 sq. Km. for the West Bank's water area in the Dead Sea could be several years old. What difference would it make anyway? If the Dead Sea is shrinking, then the water area would simply shift to the land-area column. If Abbas doesn't care about the difference between water and land area, then why doesn't Israel just dangle the prospect of the Gaza Strip being entitled to a 12-nautical-mile territorial limit into the Mediterranian Sea after statehood in exchange for a smaller amount of land in the seamline area? 1 nm = 1.852 Km. and the coastline of the GS is about 40 Km. long so the water area would be about 890 sq. Km. That is twice as big as the 451 sq. Km. in the seamline area. My fields are home construction, animal husbandry, military history, and mathematics which, of course, have nothing to do with reality, now do they?

A legalistic version to establish a country is only worth the paper it is written on. It is the blood and guts of the people that count. IF the Palestinians want to fight the Israelis, man to man (human to human), so be it. The rest of you keep your freaking hands off. The winner gets the land. I don't think that would be very acceptable to the peace-loving Palestinians. They either become a murdering bomber, or let others fight their battles, at least if you watch the history of the last 150 years or so.

i do hope lakshmi that one day you wake up from the comotose, braindead state you'r in. and then you'll find yourself in la la land, because israel be still there, and your pal brothers will still foam in the mouth, living in their "antifada" dream world! can't you see, they can't even "govern" a sliver of a land, let alone a "pal country".... but... you can still dream on in your stupor! ISRAEL IS FOR EVER, AS IT IS THE WISH OF THE REAL G O D!!!

if israel cannot go back to the 181 Partition Line and accept what was given to them(at the time they were happy to get that,became greedy after that!) then harsher measures may be the only solution,as some posters on this thread have already suggested.israel's admission to the UN was premised on their acceptance both of 181 & 194.

And there is lot of those foolish people in this talk back

Your truncated philosophies stop at the point of introspection that only includes a realization that what others are doing is not in your benefit. Of course, you seem to forget that for you to consider something beneficial is only if all Jews are rubbed out, along with the State of Israel and anyone else you believe does not support your selfish goals. Do not call us your brothers and sisters, because the relationship is estranged when you write the words you do.

Only a short-sighted person would look at a situation that does not give your country security, and accept it. Only a strong people will improve their security, and doing so against those who attacked them is the correct, ethical and right approach. You say the Palestinians were peaceful. Well, they did decide to leave the land at the behest of Jordan, Syria, Egypt and the other Arab powers of the Mideast. It would behoove those countries to accept ALL of the Palestinians into the borders, permanently, and abolish those gulags they have forced them to stay in. Most countries fight wars of protection, and do what they must. Those who say the USA created the jihad haven't got their head screwed on. Long before the attack against the Taliban, the jihad was active. Resisting agiainst aggression will always result in a recruiting situation, until there is a clear-cut winner, or until there is an agreement between two willing countries wanting peace.

"Where did the extra 205 sq. Km. come from? Abbas must be adding in the no-man`s land areas. Wow, he really tries to push things over the cliff by making excessive demands.. Whose sovereignty? The futuristic Islamic Republic of Palestine is not a nation yet and it certainly had no sovereignty over anything prior to 1967." - Jeff N Jeff, you are too gifted for me in your boundless blockheadedness. So I will explain things veeeery cleeearly, I hope, and then let you sink. If the no-man's land is to the east of the Green Line, does Abbas requiring it makes less sense or more sense than requiring any other area in the "disputed" West Bank? (a) More sense. (b) Less sense. (c) More or less the same sense. (d) More is less and less is more Hover through the fog you stupid bore.

You are absolutely right. The Zionist accepted the UN Partiton Plan because it fit with the goal articulated at the first Zionist Congress. (...to establish a Jewish Homeland recognized in law) Rather than continue UN sponsored negotiations and accept the reasonableness of a federal/binational state, the Zionists used their influence (re: US. Europe), to get the desired result. No other middle eastern state voted for Partition. From 1897 onwards, the Zionist employed all manner of scheming, influence peddling, and money to position themselves for Paritioning. While the Zionist have always claimed 'self-defence', it must be understood that although disguised in diplomacy their initial goal was inherently offensive, aggressive and ultimately required violence to achieve the necessary ends of replacing the Mandate population with a Jewish majority. Where murder was required, (ie., Count Bernodatte), the Zionists always hide behind the mantra of false apologies and the cloud of war.

If Abbas can't deliver meaningful peace for a five year period, then why even talk to him about a "Land for peace" deal? As far as Israeli actions, thats a different item. Why don't we see how Israel reacts to five years of no violence from the Palestinians? Give it a try, its never been attemted before. My guess is that you would be pleased by the Israeli reaction.

Jim, Using your incredible logic, every culture, society or nation that ever took over land from someone else should give it back. In Europe, all those who are directly descended from the Celts should be given all of the land they grabbed when their forefathers killed and enslaved to Celts. All of the Americas should be vacated by the current people who live there. For they didn't 'own' that land when they moved in. The Indians should vacate the land because it was all 'owned' by the Spirit of Mother Nature and the animals roamed their territories that they 'owned.' Don't be a simpleton.

as 'photo opportunity' unsubstantial partner . Abbas dictations , example of a precise number for the amount of land he is seeking is not backed up by UN for it would be seen as disregarding "Israel's Natural , Sovereign , Defensible borders" , Abbas statements are public relation as brainwash for arabs to hear rather than a genuine search for Mideast-/stability/peace wich is threatened by Iran's quest for mideast control and arab League quest for territorial unity , hegemony , A transparent , acountable democracies are a must all over the Mideast . Gaza is an example of arabs exploiting democratic notions for anti democratic goals , purposes , ends ,

Beside no Israeli government has a right to make decisions for that land. The entire world Jewish population will make decisions for that land. One Jewish State and more then 50 Islamic countries .Move the fence to the Jordanian borders

It will only be like Vietnam if there is a 'peace movement' in Israel that undercuts what is best for the nation, like in the USA in the 70's. That was quite a disgusting movement in the US, and the result is very easy to read, that the leftists of the world would be hard-pressed to show it was a 'good thing.' The millions of people killed in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos by the communists and totalitarians that took over in those countries, shall weigh against the anti-war crowds' souls when they pass on to the Spirit World. Those whom they indirectly helped kill will weigh heavily.

You are absolutely right. The Zionist accepted the UN Partiton Plan because it fit with the goal articulated at the first Zionist Congress. (...to establish a Jewish Homeland recognized in law) Rather than continue UN sponsored negotiations and accept the reasonableness of a federal/binational state, the Zionists used their influence (re: US. Europe), to get the desired result. No other middle eastern state voted for Partition. From 1897 onwards, the Zionist employed all manner of scheming, influence peddling, and money to position themselves for Paritioning. While the Zionist have always claimed 'self-defence', it must be understood that although disguised in diplomacy their initial goal was inherently offensive, aggressive and ultimately required violence to achieve the necessary ends of replacing the Mandate population with a Jewish majority. Where murder was required, (ie., Count Bernodatte), the Zionists always hide behind false apologies and the cloud of war.

Another popular myth of "Palestinians" is that they are descended from the Canaanites. Fascinating myth and it means that the "Palestinians",but they alone, have been immune to 3500 years of war, conquest, plague and famine (by the 14th century c.e.the region was vastly de-populated by these things). All this while avoiding any mention in the history books! Of course Arab immigration into the British Mandate of Palestine is well documented by texts of that era like the 1938 "Rape of Palestine" by William Ziff.

Dear Nehama, Is it not interesting how elephant in the living room `eludes` so many people? Hamastan at eastern & western walls-you must be dreaming. Remember, it is easier to deal with radical terror if you will pretend it does not exist. Take a look at how it works with `peace at any cost` crowd here, adapt to it than devide, build & resolve anythng your hart desires in a day. I hope you do not mind sarcasm.

You're delirious Jeff. The Saudi plan will do nothing but make it easier for the Arab states to attack the Israelis. Think about how many agreements the Arab groups have made...there is always someone who continues violating it, and the rest just say, 'Well, what can you do?' while they plan a further transgression.

You are correct, Bush rubberstamp Sen. Coleman was never a fit for leftist Minnesota voters and will be out of a job, replaced by Al Franken, come next year. Calculate the sq. km. of the 300 m. road through southern Israel, give Israel an equivalent chunk of the WB, and return the settlement-carved-up sections to Palestine. What could be more fair?

Look at the "martyr's posters" and get real. The Oslo Gang belongs in jail. That the IDF doesn't knock down every structure with a "martyr's" picture on it is to their shame. Giving Isreal to Jewkillers is like giving money to Neo-Nazis. Shameful fools!

Which Jim is here today the smiley face or the scowl face, the mask turns often and at random. "I want Israel to do the right thing and give up its war-like activities against peaceful Palestinians. I do not mean such as Islamic Jihad. They should be put out of business. but by Palestinians who want peace."-Jim now who would that be and who represents them, how many of them are there and where are they? Is it the people who voted in hamas- sworn to Israel's destruction and quotes the protocols in their charter. Is it people who support the PA- who make maximalist demands that are as realistic as an ice-cube giving birth. Tell us all how to identify this critical mass of people that, to quote you again-"Israel who is so used to war that she can no longer see the difference."-Jim I imagine it will be easy for you to identify this silent majority, shhhhhh they're silent eh.

The Palestinians only hope is to isolate Israel, expose her as the belligerent party, and spark large pressure on Israel to comprimise... That is precisely what the Arab world had been doing, especially since they understood how effectively to use Abbas/Hamas split. It does not matter what Israel concedes, how the land will be devided & so forth, if the #1 stumbling block in this copnflict is the sharply risen radical Islam & terror entirely in control of the situation (Pal for sure). Until that is eliminated, you can concede & devide anything you want, nothing will come of it. However, combatting such risen threat is not so simple, any intelligent person understands so. That does not work well with `peace now without borders` crowd. It is no secret the only addaptation in the current situation to continue & promote `peace now` is to completely ignore radical terror & lean on the more susceptible & adaptable piece. Precisely what has been going on & in context with Arab `game` plan.

That's how it goes. One side asks for what it wants. The other side asks for what it wants. They haggle. Eventually they meet somewhere in between. S.O.P. The only news is that Abbas is not asking for the Azrieli Mall.

Shut up you demented freak.I dont care what you have to say get it?? Now blow.

You are living ina fools paradise my friend.best wake up now and get in on the ground level in Kiryat Ono.

Howdy Tosefta; "No-man`s land belong to somebody." Perhaps if it was privately owned previously, but not if it was public land and definitely not in a sovereignty sense if it was still "disputed". "The border is infinitesimally wide,..." What border? Are you referring to the 1949 armistice line? Lines have no width--not even "infinitesimal" width--by definition. "and no-man`s land belongs to one nation or the other." And what "nation" would that be? Israel? Jordan? The Palestinian Territories have not been a part of a sovereign nation since 1917. "The fact that nobody dares step in there for fear of landmines or other does not remove a nation`s sovereignty." Whose sovereignty? The futuristic Islamic Republic of Palestine is not a nation yet and it certainly had no sovereignty over anything prior to 1967. "Nothing foolish about including this which is properly his." That is precisely what is being disputed, i.e., to whom does it "properly" belong?

Please look insulting and condescending words of Dav Zee. Gimmie... gimmie... gimmie... What hypocrisy. The world has become more aware of this type of arrogant Zionism. If we do not consider the other "pigs" or the "enemy," and consider divine reality, that we are brothers and sisters, we may get somewhere worthy of the children of God. Enough blood, death, pain, and suffering have been endured. Everyone in touch with reality and the facts knows that Israeli terror and oppression caused by Zionist expansionism is the root cause of the responses by Palestinians, be it peaceful or violent. Know that violence is not a cure for violence, yet love does beget love, and peace begets peace, and peace and love change hearts and minds. May the love and peace of our Jewish Brother Jesus Christ be will everyone.

terrornator, calm down, you'll have a heart attack. I'm a moderate, mate. I believe israel has a right to exist within its 1967 borders. I think the Arabs really need to sort their act out and enter the new millennium. I hate Ahmedinejad etc. etc. Wow if you hate me this much, you're really going to explode with people likc Clickfool and Tosefta. Chill.

America's a great nation terrornator, and I've met lots of nice, intelligent Americans. Unfortunately there are also people like yourself. Yes the Brits and the French helped screw up the Middle East in the 1930s. But since the second world war, the US has kindly taken over the job of screwing up the Middle East big time. From overthrwoing Mossadeq, to building up the Shah and Savak, to creating the Jihadist movement in Afghanistan, to armming Saddam, to invading Iraq and encouraging Israel to bomb Lebanon to bits, its been a blast, hasn't it. Really mate, if you want to start throwing stones about screwing up the Middle East you shouldn't live in a glass house.

lakshmi has it right. Abbas,Arafat and other Fatah leaders already made agreements with Israel concerning borders and a final settlement and never kept them. This is why OSLO failed. Arabs have never recognized Israel or UN resolutions. Armistice line and 242 are null and void. The Green line, '49 armistice are not relevant since they were refused by Arabs.Jordanians aka "Palestinians" are Refugees that squat illegally on Israel. Madrid,OSLO, Wye Hebron Protocols, Camp David and all UN resolutions have been not observed by Arabs and thus are totally null and void. The myth (dream perhaps) of a Palestinian State a "Pali-Stan" is a dangerous fantasy. Israel cannot afford another Islamic terror state on it's border along with Hamas-Stan, Lebanon and Syria. Israel in fact is now obligated under Geneva to remove Hamas-Stan and reclaim Gaza to uphold civil rights there. Most agreements made by Arabs are broken by Arabs. Mohammad the Prophet also cheated his enemies and broke agreements.