Olmert: W. Bank residents can expect 'dramatic improvements'

What guarantees would Israel have that it wouldn't happen again? All the Israeli's that were killed would have to be resurrected. That's just as fantastic as your unrealistic "What if's". Pre '67, that's a deceptive way of saying '49 Armistice Lines. Tell it as it is, not the way you fantasize. Just think of it as "No way, just a hashish dream"

Israel WAS at all of those parameters, and was attacked anyway. Reverting to them would be fruitless. Didn't work in the first place. Only a fool would think that adapting them again would be of any value........."If Israel would withdraw from the West Bank (and not reoccupy Gaza as the case may be) to its pre-1967 borders, taking with it all of its illegal settlements, outposts, segregated roads, etc., and demolish what has been built so far of its wall, Israel would then be in the strongest position ever. The world would see how much Israel desires peace by these gestures and Israel`s image in the eyes of the world would be vastly improved. As things are, it couldn`t get much worse. Isn`t that a more pragmatic idea than the outdated dream of a Greater Israel?"

Here's a bit more information regarding Iran acting as puppeteer, pulling Hamas' & Hezbollah's strings...Today's HaAretz..."Last update - 16:25 24/06/2007 PA intelligence chief: Iran aided Hamas in takeover of Gaza Strip By News Agencies Palestinian intelligence chief Tawfiq Tirawi on Sunday accused Iran of close involvement in Hamas' violent takeover of Gaza, saying Tehran funded the Islamic militants and trained hundreds of them. Tirawi said the battle for Gaza earlier this month had been carefully orchestrated and was a joint program with Iran. In implied criticism of Syria, he noted that Hamas' leadership is based there, and said that a month before the Gaza fighting, the Syrian-based Hamas leaders and the heads of the Hamas military wing met in an undisclosed Arab capital. In this meeting, Tirawi said, they discussed all the details of the operation.

Hamas is regional, so is Hezbollah, both funded and controlled by Iran. Surely you knowthat Hamas was being trained in Iran?. In effect, the functions of both organizations are interchangeable. Don't be too confident, you're sealing with terrorists. BTW, suddenly you've taken on the aspects of another writer, whose name starts with "B". Same continuous strings of postings and methadology of writing, arguing with everyone, contesting everyting. Methinks, you are both one and the same. Oh well, we do have charachters that write under 3-4-5 psuedonyms.

You remind me of the Twin Towers. I reminded you of them in my earlier post. I also agreed with you wholeheartedly about the danger of Al Quaida. What I am - was - saying is that Hamas is not Al Quaida, Hamas is a regional organization, and they are not likely to be occupying Connecticut or bombing it in our lifetimes. However much you may want to, you cannot equate Hamas with Al Quaida in terms of danger to us.

You "know of it", I went through it. Big difference. Al Quaida has established cells worldwide. Most of the shipping containers arriving in the U.S. aren't inspected. Customes claims it checks out about 3%, leaving 97% capable of transporting a weapon. It's not necessarily Hamas, it's also Al Quaida. The world well knows that Hamas is directed & funded by Iran, which is desperately working on obtaining nuke capability. Thhey're also shopping around for old Russian nukes..Your town, as are many others, is in imminent danger of being nuked. Don't forget they destroyed the Twin Towers, hit the Pentagon etc. Don't be too smug!

.....and it has nothing whatever to do with Hamas attacking Connecticut with nuclear weapons in suitcases, which you seemed to think might happen! It isn't a question of being smug, it's a question of being practical. Soviet Russia was a world power. Like us. Does Hamas and the Palestinians come into that league? If you were speaking of Al Quaida, that would be a different matter, obviously. But you are talking about the Palestinians and their organisations. Not very likely, is it?

Declaring the same for residents of Sderot. "Olmert: W. Bank residents can expect 'dramatic improvements'"

The Palestinian's have been doing it to THEMSELVES for 60 years. Refusing peace, attacking again & again. They could have had a state in 1948, under the UN Partition Plan, they elected to go to war instead. Their very actions have caused their isolation. The played follow the leader and their leaders was blind and deceptive. Promised Pali's conquest, loot & land, delivered despair, misery and deprivation. All the while shearing their sheep for all the money they could steal and hide in foreign bank accounts. Yasser Arafat was a master thief. His widow lives in luxury while the suckers he left behind remain improverished. New leaders have replaced Arafat, following in his thieving footsteps.

Suggest you read up on the Cuban Missile Crisis, the U.S. was quite scared of Russina Subs launching ICBM from offshore the U.S. or from Cuban waters. People were buy and digging shelters like mad. New Nukes are a lot smaller, portable and potent. It's been stated that they can be fitted into a suitcase. During WW2, Germany had U-boats cruising Americna waters. Don't be too smug, there's nothing new under the sun, what you could have been done 50-60 years ago, can most certainly be done now, faster and better.

"As for the ten years you mention, this conflict between Israel and Palestine has been going on for forty years as it is now. And as for breaching human rights, hasn`t Israel been doing that to the Palestinians for forty years now?"

Your "If's" have already taken place, long ago. Israel was at it's 1948 borders when Arab armies attacked. Revised borders were set by the 1949 Armistice. In 1956, while Israel was at the '49 borders, Egypt closed the Suez, Israel, France & England, went to war to re-open the Suez. In 1967, while Israel was at '49 borders, Nasser gathered Arab armies, declaring he was going to attack Israel, Israel struck first. Arabs lost more land as a results. 1973, while Jews were at prayer on their holiest day, Yom Kippur, Arabs Pearl Harbored Israel, a sneak attack. The pre-67 borders are a deceptive way of stating '49 borders. The 49 borders never held in the first place and are no guarantee of peace. Pre '67 also means returning the Golan, which Syria used a launch site for her attacks.. Simply put, reverting or returning land would be of no avail, Israel has already experienced the old borders, they didn't work.

My home "glowing in the dark", as you put it, due to someone's ICBMs is not something that is likely to cause me to lose any sleep. The only person capable of bringing destruction to America, in my opinion, isn't any Arab nation but that incredible idiot George Bush. The harm he's done to his own country can't be easily rectified. (I don't live in Hartford, anyway. Where do you live, then?)

I did not deny that the conflict has been going on for longer than forty years, nor did I ever state that. You are assuming what I know and don't know. But I was suggesting that if Israel withdrew to pre-1967 borders it would win a great deal of support from Europe and also recognition from Arab countries. Saudi Arabia has already made this offer. Obviously Israel refused it, and why? More land grabbing? Your post was interesting until you just had to call the Palestinians "pigs". Then, you lost my attention. Gratuitious insults to Palestine are meaningless in my opinion. I won't make the obvious retort about "pigs", either.

"What you call the Israeli occupation is not illegal by any means" Now, KUTW, you'll have to do better than that! The Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and until recently Gaza has been declared illegal by the the International Court in the Hague, and you know it! It is a shame and a scandal before the world, and has been rightly condemned by most of Europe and of course the Arab countries. Israel has the right to exist, did you ever read a post by me declaring otherwise? Attacks on Israel itself are against the very international law that Israel scorns. Israel must obey that law itself also with regard to its treatment of Palestinians.

Before giving Abbas cudos and support, Tell him to help release Cpl. Shalit or at least tell us where he is!

Hartford is in range of ICBM's. Don't be too smug. Nobody want a nuke war. If so, your own home will glow in the dark, without having to illuminate it with electricty.

The "Conflict" has been going on for a lot longer than 40 years. I suggest you check a few facts. Try "Wikipedia's Timelines Israel Arab Conflict". After you've done that, review the Arab riots of 1929 & 1936, where they killed Jews in Hebron, raped the women and forced the survivors to flee. Then, you can go back just a bit further, read of the Arab attacks on Tel Hai. "Breaching Human Rights", of course you itend to discuss the Arabs attacking Israel on 5/15/48, attacking the Jewish State, as established by the UN Partition Plan, in hopes of conquering it and adding it to the Palestinian State that had been allocated by the very same partition plan, instead losing the Arab state they would have had if they weren't being such pigs. Again, check out the references I suggested, get back to me if you require further clarification.

I saw the fly in the oitment. You said (Islamization) is bad for the West; just the West? not bad for them, poor people (and women)? Or just a Freudian slip?

The islamaization part was under the heading "fly in the ointment", meaning NOT good...... Nothig in the scenario painted was meant as "good". Just some palusible conjectures on how a regular Arab person somewhere in the world may view the unfolding events, along with some predictions...we'll see if right or wrong... PS according to Tosefta the Fatah led government becomes officially illegitimate after 30 days. let's take his word for it. I still suspect that the palestinian people - most of them - are not likely to quibble on official dates, and may regard the whole thing as shoddy from day 1. Then there is the rest of the muslim world watching - and weighing this exercise in democracy. If Gaza goes Islamist, guess who will be blamed (hint: not necessarily hamas...). Good column in The Guardiant yesterday by Beaumont....

From your point of view, does Israel have the right to defend itself? Are attacks on Israel and the murder of Israelis in accordance to international law? Does Israel have the right to exist? What you call the ?Israeli occupation? is not illegal by any means. Read the UN resolutions on the matter.

My first name is my own birth name, Paul Harris, but I really don't understand what it has to do with the discussion in hand. Perhaps you could enlighten me on this? As for the ten years you mention, this conflict between Israel and Palestine has been going on for forty years as it is now. And as for breaching human rights, hasn't Israel been doing that to the Palestinians for forty years now?

This will go out soon. Logical but faulty. OK about Olmert. He is incorrigible. Dreaming however. Islamic Gaza - food to eat? Hmm. Bad for the West? Bad soul in you!!!! Bad for the people!!! Talibanising is good? For all women except you! Wild beards are your thing???

where the territorial extend of the "Jewish Homeland" is set out in the Mandate Text, or even where in that text it is stated that the "Jewish Homeland" would actually *be* a territorial entity? As for "liberating" it in 1967, so sorry, but you are dead-set wrong. The Israel High Court of Justice ruled time and time again that the Gaza Strip was under belligerent occupation, with the IDF commander gaining his authority over the land via Article 42 of the Hague Regulations. Even Sharon's Disengagement Plan stated that the Gaza was occupied, and then claimed that the Plan would end that state of occupation. Sorry, Paul, but you can't "occupy" your own sovereign territory. It simply ain't possible, so your claim is a nonsense. As one would expect, of course, from a fruit-loop like you; you state something out of ignorance, and then carry that ignorance as a shield of honour. Sad, I know, but very, very true.

There is something terribly wrong with a PM and his staff promising the illegal residents of the West Bank (under the 4th Geneva convention) they are going to receive better security. This is not only unlawful it is totally out-rageous and it reflects the moral corruption going on inside of Israel and the WB and the Palestinian territories today that must end. Dutch

IS YOUR FIRST NAME TOTALLY IMPRACTICAL? NOT ONLY WOULD THIS TAKE AT LEAST TEN YEARS TO ACHEIVE IT WOULD COST AROUND $2 TRILLION AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WOULD BREACH THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF ALL THE PEOPLE LIVING OVER THE 1949 ARMISITICE LINE !!

What does betel nut have to do with the discussion? Why do you ask if Lakshmi is chewing it? Would you like to ask me if I am having a cup of tea? How does the customs of our countries enter into this? Of course, if anyone here dared to make some cultural slur to you about Israelis, we'd all be anti-semitic, now wouldn't we?

You are quite wrong to think that no-one cares about the Palestinians killed in Gaza during the factional fighting. They are now engaged in what appears to be a civil war, and eventually they will arrive at a settlement. You also refer in a snide manner to Hamas being elected by Palestinians. Hamas has acted as a provider of social services to the people during its history, and this fact will attract loyalty. When the IDF kills Palestinians, it is done during an illegal military occupation of the Palestinian lands.

"Hamas is a Palestinian Resistance Movement engaged in a liberation struggle"... Yes...international law (which Israel ignores when it suits them, which is most of the time) states quite clearly that armed resistance to an illegal occupation is lawful. The West Bank (and formerly Gaza) is being illegally occupied by the Israeli military. Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, Hamas is not interested in invading England, I don't think...and Europe, America and India are safe from them too!!!

"If Iran goes after Israel, Tehran as we know it will be gone...." Tehran, Equalizer, won't be the only place that is gone following such an event. Israel is surrounded by Arab enemies, and is a very small country. Pakistan has nuclear capability. Israel might be gone one minute after Tehran, you know...unless, of course, it manages to drag in America to the war...

....your remark to Lakshmi, that is. "Hamas to present Lakshmi with destroyed Hindu states in India after the West Bank"? Isn't that a rather silly comment to make? I don't expect Hamas to be occupying England any time soon, either. Or America for that matter. Hamas has interest only in Palestine...not Hindu states, not British towns, not American cities....it's regional, Sam...

The Bush engineered coup in Palestine was the death knell of the Saudi peace initiative." - Mark L Be that as it may, to claim that Bush engineered the Hamas coup is an extreme exgeration, it seems. Tosefta See Mark, even the totally `blind` may crush the `vampire on the bloody prawl in constant need of Bush blood`. As soon as there is the foot of the pedal anywhere in the world, & it may be actually recognized that Bush is not the `vilain` his bloodsuckers portraing him to be, you get unusually nervous, which is evident right away in your posts.

With reference to your lengthy reply to Clickfool, what about this oh-so-simple solution: If Israel would withdraw from the West Bank (and not reoccupy Gaza as the case may be) to its pre-1967 borders, taking with it all of its illegal settlements, outposts, segregated roads, etc., and demolish what has been built so far of its wall, Israel would then be in the strongest position ever. The world would see how much Israel desires peace by these gestures and Israel's image in the eyes of the world would be vastly improved. As things are, it couldn't get much worse. Isn't that a more pragmatic idea than the outdated dream of a Greater Israel?

All stick and no carrot never works.Make Abbas a hero in his peoples eyes,that would help alot.Not acting is not an option.Regards

Surprise, surprise, I also don't smoke. But back to the issue: "Then how can one negotiate with someone who doesn`t accept your existence?" - Smadar You don't. Indeed, Hamas wanted Abbas to carry out the negotiations. They didn't want to negotiate with Israel, but were willing to let Abbas do it and then put the deal to a referendum. Sounded beautiful to me. But if there is a deal now (which I actually doubt very much), Hamas is not obligated to run a referendum and will probably prevent one. Moreover, 30 days from now the new government will stop being legal. Things will look illegitimate. The same negotiations that were ideal a week ago will now be unacceptable. Three cheers to Olmert and Bush.

Well, Bob, you've got it...two great minds speaking to a pipsqueak mind such as your own. This past week has presented an important and new dynamic, and if you are unable to get it, please don't blame me. In the meantime, there is much to consider and much to discuss with folks not so dragged down with primitive and propagandized thinking such as you seem to be. Thanks for the memories.

IT WAS LIBERATED IN 1967!!

I have not idea whatsoever regarding the zionist screed which you seem to be babbling. Seriously, Danite, if it is impossible for you to come with some, or even one, argument of substance, it will not be long before I will not be answering your silly posts addressed to me.

You are wrong in this one: the electricity is off in Gaza. Fuel also, of course. Please do apologize when you are clearly found to be in the wrong.

Oh Chanah, you only believe in that what fits into your old-fashioned idea of a homeland for refugees from European anti-semitism. Somehow or another, I do understand you, even though I would disagree with you on all points. However, while I need to do no research whatsoever regarding your opinions (as I know it comes from your un-examined heart); you do need to look into current events (upon which I base my posts) before you can call me 'nuts'...was that the word? (Please do modify your insults.)

Hello Dana, Nice to hear from you. I believe Slowman is doing a slow job today and your post must have come up late. The Pals may indeed see Abbas as a lackey of the US, and when the opportunity presents itself will rid itself of Fatah again. Just to correct a couple of inaccuracies: 1. It is not clear that Fatah was planning a coup. Why Hamas staged their own coup is also not clear, although one can theorize. Perhaps we will find out in the future. 2. The emergency government is not illegitimate. It is in the President's power to dismiss the government and to rule for 30 days of emergency. Abbas chose to rule thru a new government, which is also legal. His problem will start when the 30 days are over. In fact, he cannot extend the 30 days without Hamas votes. This is when we will be able to talk about illegitimacy and a dictatorship. But so far, we can only say that Bush and Olmert undermined Palestinian democracy when they did not like the result of the elections. That was indeed foolish, but typical.

Hello Tosefta again, I'm not one to have any significant sin in may past, and actually I've been described prudish. (surprise,surprise...didn't even try a cigarette, etc.) Now back on topic... But concerning my statement regarding Hamas not delivering after accepting the Prisoner's Document, I meant they are not accepting the Quartet's 3 conditions of renouncing violence, disarming and acceptance of Israel. Then how can one negotiate with someone who doesn't accept your existence? Abbas just fixed this problem, and now he's a partner for Israel. I believe that both the Israelis and Palestinians have learned from the vast mistakes of the past and I'm hopeful we'll see a return to serious diplomacy, even with the Bush administration.

You just enjoyed the most incredible, enlightening experience of your life. Congratulations to you.

There are two reasons why Hamas is so popular among Palestinians: 1) they preach unadulterated hatred towards Israel and call for its destruction, and 2) through its social services arm it has improved life for the Palestinian people already. Add to this the fact that Fatah is seen as incredibly corrupt, and you have a recipe for success. What makes it easier for them? Financing from Iran. That same financing from Iran has increased Hezbollah's popularity among the Lebanese, even those that previously did not support them, as Iranian money helps Hezbollah help the Lebanese recover from last summer's war.

It's an x-ray machine, ya nitwit. It'd be clad in very heavy duty shielding. It's a perfect place to position yourself if you want to stop a bullet blowing a great big hole in the side of your torso. The damn thing would probably stop a RPG, fer crying out loud. Why WOULDN'T you use it for cover, considering it'd make a very good one-person pillbox with an excellent field of fire?

Actually, big ones: efox: "Palestinians can build a state behind the fence or they can attack Israel." Hmmm, what is "behind" the fence in the West Bank is not "Israel". They'd be attacking an occupation force on non-Israeli land. efox: "Palestine can build a state behind the fence and behave like civilized people" It isn't civilised to built a fence thru land that doesn't belong to you, and then pretend this means some of it does now belong to you. Even less so when you threaten to "destroy utterly" anyone who wants to challenge that land-grabbing. efox: "Israel controls its borders" You are talking about the "fence" efox, and the "fence" in the West Bank is not on any Israeli border. Israel (and you) want to pretend that the fence is the border, when it clearly is not; the land on the western side of that fence is not Israeli territory. That ol' zionist trick; create "facts on the ground", and then pretend that lends legitimacy to the land-grab. Pathetic.

CJK: "if Gaza is still occupied Maybe Israel should help liberate it." Cipora, turn the question on its head; if Gaza is NOT occupied then Israel has no right to "liberate it". The use of armed force is covered by the UN Charter (the Charter Israel agreed to abide by, remember) and is spelt out in Article 52. You use force for *self defence*, Cipora, not for "wars of liberation". If you want to "liberate" a country then you go to the UN and get a Resolution authorizing the use of force. You don't just Go It Alone, coz you end up looking like George W Bush. Yet Israel *is* planning on going back in: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/871802.html How can Barak justify this? Why, Article 2(i)(1) and 2(i)(3) of the Disengagement Plan. Troops were only "redeployed", not "withdrawn" and so Barak can just deploy them back again. Precisely BECAUSE Sharon never relinguished the authority under Article 42, Hague Regs, that ends occupation.

....in an x-ray machine....the kind of logic and self preservation which we have come to expect from Hamas! great pic--should go down for a press award!

"The Bush engineered coup in Palestine was the death knell of the Saudi peace initiative." - Mark L I actually don't understand why Bush never endorsed the Saudi initiative, the competitor of his roadblock named Roadmap. Be that as it may, to claim that Bush engineered the Hamas coup is an extreme exgeration, it seems. You might say that the Bush-Olmert policies produced the coup (I tend to agree) is one thing. But to "engineer" it? An unintended consequence of a bad policy is more like the typical work Bush does.

Olmert: W. Bank residents can expect 'dramatic improvements' Yeah, right. He's made the announcement, and got it into the papers. His job is now done; when it comes time to *impliment* these improvements the Israelis will simply shout "security concerns! security concerns!" and they just. will. not. be. done. And THEN Israel will have the hide to turn around and wonder why the Palestinians are tossing out the moderates and replacing them with the militants. Why-ever not, when the moderates have proven time and again that they just can not "moderate" the harsh conditions that Israel has imposed upon the Pals for decade after decade. This is what passes for "leadership" in Israel. Pathetic.

Only by force, and only by IDF Hamas can be desarmed and its reprentatives must be arrested or sent to abroad forever.

With all due respect, I think it's important to teach the Palestinians that they can't get something for nothing. Let them start with Gaza, and if they can behave then reward them with more. They need to learn how to behave first.

Too much talk about. It is a time to completely seal the border between Gaza and Egypt. IDF can do it alone: how many times we need to discuss it.

They'll have to try to govern it. They probably won't have the luxury Iran has of dictating to their citizens. They'll have to improve people's lives to keep their power and popularity, or be vulnerable to attack by their enemies. It's hard to see how they can do that if they keep up the attacks on Israel. It's not clear to me how this will unfold.

Dino hello I hardly think that Hamas is getting help from the Saudis.After all they are Wahabis,more inclined to support the Sunnis rather than Shiites.But,who knows with their lot.One day they chose one side againt the other then they change tack.Funnylot these Arabs... P/S very slow haaretz today...

The subject of Leprechauns and Unicorns is also being raised, not as a serious subject mind you. There is already a large multinational force in Israel and it is called Palestine.

Fatah is run by a guy who wrote his dissertation on the use of Holocaust Denial to legitimize Israel. This is not a person who could be trusted then and this is not a person that can be trusted now. This is someone who is an expert liar with the goal of repeating the holocaust he would happily edit from recorded history. Hamas, is even worse. There is nothing to negotiate and nothing to talk about. Palestinians can build a state behind the fence or they can attack Israel. Palestinians can build a state behind the fence and then attack Israel and Israel can take it as a declaration of war and destroy them utterly. Or, Palestine can build a state behind the fence and behave like civilized people. This seems the least likely option on the list. There is nothing to talk about, there is nothing to negotiate. Israel controls its borders and has no obligation to provide any money, food or water to Palestinians. If the Palestinians want to be friends they should stop trying to kill Jews.

"3. The Saudi offer. Olmert may end up accepting, although I doubt it." - Tosefta The Bush engineered coup in Palestine was the death knell of the Saudi peace initiative. The intent of both the Bush Junta and the Olmert regime is to ensure that there will be no possibility of a peace settlement between the Palestinians and Israel. They have succeeded because now there can be no 'partner'' and thus no peace. Any 'peace' made with Abbas following his seizure of dictatorial powers (declaring in effect the constitution null and void and appointing his new government for life himself) will lack legitimacy to the majority of Palestinians. Fatah will not be able, without opposition, of doing any different than it has in the past, which is corrupt government. We are getting the neocon spin right now, but when reality sets in. . . The flower strewn parades awaiting Abbas and his partners George and Ehud, will be forgotten.

What is there to talk about? Want a state? Stay on your side of the fence and make one. If a Palestinian State attacks us, we have the right to take it as a declaration of Total War, answerable with the complete annihilation of that state. Thus far you have demonstrated nothing resembling the ability to manage autonomy. Given greenhouses, you stripped them for weapons. Given street signs you tore them down for weapons. You can not sustain your own utilities, roads or hospitals without a steady supply of external aid. You say you are farmers but you don't know how to grow enough to feed yourselves, let alone preserve your exports. There is nothing to talk about, there is only action to be taken. Stay on your side of the fence and build something instead of destroying for once and then, you will be treated like a state, if you really want that.

"Word is that the new war minister(Barak) is contemplating a ground invasion of 20,000 troops of Gaza in the next few weeks." Do not worry: nobody will sent the troops there. Who needs it when Hamas does all the job?!

"Why on earth would you hold Hamas responsible for these deaths? Many of the dead were also Hamas members. Such is the nature of such armed confrontations." - Hannah "It has obviously escaped your concern that Israel is overall responsible (and should be accountable) for developments in GS" In my post #86 I asked who is responsible for the death of 100+ Palestinians in Gaza, and I got two wonderful answers: 1. Hannah: When people fight,nobody is responsible even if killed are not a collateral damage but are the targets. My memory reminds me that this criterion is not applicable to Israel. 2. JJ: Israel is responsible for EVERYTHING that Hamas does in Gaza, so Hamas is not a democratically elected government as it assumes responsibilities for its actions? It is just great! Now, dear lawyers, could you please tell me how do we call the people, who are not responsible for their actions? If you have problem answering, consult your doctor.

"Olmert: W. Bank residents can expect 'dramatic improvements" - Haaretz Like when he ordered a major reduction in checkpoints in the West Bank and the number actually went up?

Just give us more weapons. We are moderate and good. We aren't a threat. You can trust us.

They had Egypt and Jordan and Syria, not enough for them so they took Lebanon. Then they wanted Israel, Israel offered them several large chunks, Judea, Samaria and Gaza, not enough, they attacked again wanting more, so Israel decided not to let them have all of Judea and Samaria, but Gaza remained on the table. Finally, Israel forced Gaza on them, so the Palestinians launched attacks and more attacks and more attacks. So they have Gaza now but will they make it a state? No of course not, because they never wanted a State. What they want is Israel destroyed and for that reason, there is Nothing left to Talk about.

FIRST, talks must take place between Hamas & Fatah, leading to a firm agreement between them. Meanwhile they're busy shooting at each other and tossing fellows from rooftops, execuations in the streets, etc. Since Hamas' objective is to DESTROY Israel and she refuses to change her goals or recognize Israel, as it stand an agreement between Israel & the PA would lack one participant, Hamas. Since all factions aren't in agreement with one another, peace at this point is impossible.

Plz tell me there are some citizens of israel, who stand by shin bets move in 1987 too support hamas :P

where Israel thinks it may end up looking bad in the near future is empty promises. "could expect dramatic changes for the better" Really? When? When pigs fly is my guess.

Oh you mean the same status quo since this all started decades ago.

the israeli government and people are bent on national suicide, if i didnt have family in israel i would say the hell with them and go on with my life in the U.S., we in America whose hard earned money and incessant lobbying are crucial to Israel's existence will soon become ambivilant to the corrupt and idiotic state of Israel if they dont act like they give a damn about themselves

Alas, I cannot interject in a more timely manner these days. My special haaretz diet also calls for 5posts/day on average. Doing OK so far, but need more therapy. Ultimate cure: sudden peace - I'm really motivated now! will respond to alerts of course, on an emergency basis (am on west coast time now and for the foreseeable future). Thanks for the link - it will come in handy when I can no longer avoid our friend - who realy thinks he has a winning argument in the RoR (am still learning so the process has its uses for me). I do realize that these 'debates' are just for show - mostly to prove that THEY were in the wrong and that THEREFORE there's no need to talk anymore. It's an argument to advance nothing and to justify a negative. And like you said - at the end with all the references in the world it'll degenerate into aimless discussions about what was or wasn't on people's minds. Still it motivated me to look at some taba summaries, so I understand the parting comments better now

This time I agree with you. A free Palestinian state in the WB - no Gaza and no Hamas - perhaps some kind of economic federation with Jordan, with isrel as an economic partner. If Lebanon was anywhere near sane it could join forces with such a plan - lo and behold a veritable paradise on earth that would attract investments, tourists and create a good life for all of us in the region. As for Hamas and Gaza - well, they would then have to make their choices - either rot in hell or join the club under very specific conditions. No more war, no more bloodshed.

Isdrael was stupid enough to let them get away with it. It should have been an all or nothing deal with egypt when we returnerd their other lands. Mow Egypts regects have become Israels burden.

You mean the Jewish People has returned to its Homeland and has claimed their right of national self determination on part of the land of israel dont you?

As you are trying to tar Israel and whitewash Hamas? Right Lakshmi? I think Sam and Canada have a far deeper understanding of the situation that you have.

Crap - if you read the article in Haaretz (rather more reliable than BBC which chooses what to report and quote) it says that a ground invasion is a plausible option is qassam rocket attacks on Israel continue. You and Hannah make a fine pair of spinners. By the way, Abbas requested that Israel cease supplying fuel - not cut off electricity.

It was Abbas who requested that Israel cease supplying fuel - not electricity.

Good idea Tim. Put an international peace keeping force on the Israeli side - then the Palestinians can carry on killing each other as they have been. Brilliant idea- jeez, why didn't I think of it?

"On Thursday, Olmert and Livni were begging for an international force to come to rescue them?" To rescue whom? Excuse me? Are you nuts? Is that why hundreds of Palestinians are scrambling at the Erez crossing hopin to cross over into Israel to escape these viscious madmen Hamas? Or why the Tunisian diplomatic mission in Gaza crossed over into Israel fot eh same reason (no diplomatic ties between Israel and Tunisia by the way). From what exactly did Israel need rescuing?

It is funny that you mentioned obsession. Do not you think that posting like a 10 comments on every single thread looks like obsession? So, just following the lines of your logic why is it that you are obsessed with a tiny country hundreds of miles away? Why do not you warn Pakistanis about a nuclear threat coming form your country or tip off noble Kashmiri freedom fighters on moves of Indian occupation forces?

It is interesting that everything Israel is supposedly about to offer Abbas (tax money release, roadblock easing, talks etc) were the things Abbas asked for beofre hamas got elected, and certainly after, even before the unity government was formed. So let's look at this through say, Arab in the Street eyes: 1. Israel refuses to empower Abbas by giving him some progress he can deliver to the people. 2. Palestinians lose hope that Israel is really interested in a nything other than creeping annexation. They vote Hamas into power in democratic elections 3. Israel undermines the new government, encouraging a fatah takeover. Unity government is shunned 4. Fatah is encouraged to take on Hamas in a coup to depose the elected government. Fatah fails. 5. In the west bank Fatah declares a new government, unelected by the people, appoints US supported PM with no power base. 6. Israel/US to offer illegitimate government goodies it refused to give before when they were legitimate, cf. see #1. 7. Hamas accomplishes by armed struggle what diplomacy could not. Conclusion: democracy works only if it produces the results desired by your enemy (US is viewed as the Pal`s enemy now, thanks to Bush). Elected governments get no respect. The only thing that works is force. Hamas is right. My prediction: hamas will work hard to pacify Gaza, establish law & order. Take on the clans. Stop quassams, give no excuse for Israel to invade. Manage to free Johnson, getting kudos. Conclude shalit negotiations. Pals see as role model. Hamas gains support in WB. Abbas seen as another ak propped up illegitimate ruler. Fly in the ointment: Gaza goes Islamic. Sad for the people, but there is food to eat. Bad for the West. Rack up another one to the Bobsy twin clowns.

When Hamas in 1992 delcared that the Oslo contracts are not binding to them only a few correspondents like Robert Frisk noticed. Bill Clinton wanted the nobelprice - he failed. Israels leades failed great. If they want in to GAZA - the Fatah government is history in weeks not years. There is only one solution to accept Hamas - it would have been far better to accept it a year ago when they won the election.

I like your conviction but your anonymous Muslim blogger who definitely never lived in both countries to compare proves absolutely nothing. I am sure if you go ask people from Kashmir who are 99 % Muslims I doubt very much they would call India the best and theirs. You can try to paint India in bright colors but everybody knows that at least two PM of India were murdered by Sikhs. The AirIndia plane with more than 300 people was bombed by Sikhs. There are Muslim riots every year. It is in India Muslim rioters call raping a Hindu woman a Jihad. Just on Feb28 2002 in Gujarat 80 people were reported to be burnt a life. There are plenty of people form India in Canada that one can talk to which I have been doing for a while and all of them tell a story 180 degrees different from yours. Repeat Hamas is involved in power struggle and makes no secret that its goal elimination of Israel or freeing Palestine from the river to the sea and there is nothing noble about that.

Well, my friend Lakshmi, there will be several (not many) self-defeating steps taken by so-called Israel and the USofA before this entire event works through to its inevitable conclusion. Just to repeat myself, zionism today is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Because of this, I'm not worried about the positive outcome for the Palestinian people.

Wrong, Gil, they don't need our banks, they need our watches. That's what makes us impregnable.

Duncan, let's just hope and pray that it will never have to come thus far. Because I'm afraid that the consequences would become a hellish nightmare for both sides. I think I will leave it with that.

Palestine!!! Most people are confused in describing what is actually a Palestinian. It is my opinion, Israel has made a big mistake in clearing AZA of his people. You don't earn any golden points internationally for this move. Let the arab people supply water and electricity and food, it is not Israel's responsibility and nobody will thank you for your efforts. Will arabs do the same for you? It is a sad situation that there seems to be no suitable leader (like in the older generations) to deal with this messed up situation! Your politians are wrong and gone soft!!!

Now the Pals have learned what it is like to live without Israel and killing one another. The problem, though, may be the clans, not only the al-aqsa murderers brigades.

duncan - you have a point Tomorrow I?m going to push the button! What is a nuke if you don?t use it? (Dr. Strange Love)

This problem was started by Irak. They have been discussing for a long time now trying to get Irak not to get nuclear power. Irak was at it undercover till somebody found it out. This means its intention is not good.

Hello. I agree with you as well. Let?s hope the pals in the West Bank have learned the lesson.

Maybe Israel should help liberate it.

I agree with you if Israel uses nukes Israel will be a pariah maybe even 100 years. and It goes without saying that the first option is diplomatic. The question is what should Israel do if (as I suspect) that the diplomtic option will fail and a conventional military option is not feasible. Then Israel is left with a choice either pre-emtive nuclear strike and live with the downside it becomes a pariah for a 100 years. or die with its good name intact in the west . I would say that the first option is by far the most preferable. after all while there is life there is hope. As for being a pariah for 100 years, I think jews can cope with that. After all for almost 2000 years Jews were a parih and had to live with the stigma of deicide until the vatican council rehabilitated the Jews. another 100 years or so is not much historically. Duncan

Swiss (Dino) it is good for you to know as a Swiss,that SHVITSER-LAND isn't a targeted by Iran, They need your Bank!!!

Yes, the Hamas are deadly but let us not forget who the Fatah truly are. They are the direct decendants of the Mufti Of Jerusalem who was Arafat's mentor and who was a great bosom buddy of Adolph Hitler. The Mufti and his 20,000 muslim murdering soldiers was responsible for the elimination of Jews, Serbs and Gypies in the Balkans during WW2. So brutal was he that he even surprised the SS with his efficiency at murder. I frankly hope they both kill each other off . . . the world might be a better place without Fatah and Hamas. Good riddance! If there is any decent pal in Gaza he should get out quickly.

When describing sins of the past it doesn't mean that the future will remain bleak too. People can learn from their mistakes, even Olmert. As far as your statements: 1. "Prisoner`s Document. More than this, unfortunately, [Hamas] couldn`t deliver." I don't knoe what you mean here. Olmert refused to accept this delivery. There was no need for more. The Europeans decided they would look at "actions", not formal statements. 2. "issuing of the decree against armed groups, etc. could pave the road to a new partner" Olmert has already said that the new government is a partner. He is waiting to see if they are stable. In any case, the decree seems to be ONLY against Hamas. Big mistake; he should dismantle all militias, including his own. Israel can insist now. 3. The Saudi offer. Olmert may end up accepting, although I doubt it. In any case, the Saudis will not negotiate directly with him, and this may be all that Olmert wanted. We are yet to see if Olmert has any intention to grab less the "wall". When we see a sign to it, I will be more optimistic about him. But he cannot do it. Too weak politically. There will probably be new elections in Israel within a year. We have to see what the result is. In any case, Olmert is probably on his last legs.

israel and tarring hamas,it did get to you didn't it ? Well that happens when one engages systematically in telling tales.

sequel to all this.Word is that the new war minister(Barak) is contemplating a ground invasion of 20,000 troops of Gaza in the next few weeks.

Because the two state solution is no longer the conversation of the Arab Islamic world is it?

Yes, I agree, that Fatah should have one and only one single command structure. And then engage in internal discussions as to whether this organization sanctions terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians, or labors to prevent them, thus signaling peace with Israel.

Has stability been shaky and therefore you were not here to bash, bash and bash; demonize, demonize and demonize the Jewish state?

Yes, I do understand what you are saying, Danite. As you western zionists squat, illegally, as alien intruders in the the heart of the Middle East, it must be very difficult for you to understand, much less trust, the people whose lands you have stolen.

Hello Tosefta, You've highlighted well the developments concerning the PA's unity gov't evolution and Hamas's involvement in the political realm up to the point of recognizing the Prisoner's Document. More than this, unfortunately, they couldn't deliver. Therefore, it's just possible that Abbas's new PA gov't and issuing of the decree against armed groups, etc. could pave the road to a new partner for negotiations with Israel. That is, if Hamas & co. remain quiet like they've already suggested in the past. All could be wishful thinking on my part,(certainly has happened many times before) but really to dismiss and say we have no partner, perpetuates this misery in the region. Further, you seem to lack any faith in Olmert, but what about his statement to the Saudis, something to the effect: " The king will be surprized with what I have to offer." With me this spells, very much close, to the peace proposal of the Camp David 2000 offer by Ehud Barak. So what's wrong with this?

I see you are back, spitting at our faces just because we are Jews living in our forfathers' and formothers' homeland, or perhaps just because we are alive....?

HANNAH YOU AND THE OTHER MISCREANTS TO THIS COLUMN ARE LIKE THE PUNTER AT THE DERBY WHO BETS ON A 1000-1 SHOT BECAUSE THEY ONLY HAVE A DOLLAR. HAMAS ARE ALL TIME LOSERS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CALCULATE THE RESULT CORRECTLY. ABBAS WAS NOT NO2 TO ARAFAT FOR NOTHING !! THEY HAVE LOST BEFORE THE RACE BEGINS

Thats the way they are between them Hannah, now do you understand why we are not comfortable with them??

Spare me your tendentious nonsense will you? Tosefta has declared Abbas irrelevant to any thing not me.If you dont believe me ask him.He said that ONLY Spain and their 'revolutionary plan" LOL can work.Toseftas issues are very deep Lahbras, you seem to share them.Sorry your the dreams you attactched to hamas are coming to naught but their you go fools making bigger fools out of fools.This must be hard for you Iunderstand.

I am sure that there are many people and governments the world over who are pleased to see egg on the faces of so-called Israel/USofA, as we are witnessing today. That, however, is not the definition of a 'strategic alliance'. Please be very careful with your words when it comes to Iran, as this real axis of evil, (namely, the USofA/IL) plans their military attack on Iran (September, I understand the date to be), and their propaganda machine is currently being revved up.

Don`t mean to be cynical however I`m really more curios about what new excuse for not negotiating the spin masters will come up with. Perhaps a Hamas "terrorist" attack originating from the west bank? WB = Abbas. terror =WB. terror = Abbas. Partner for peace = man who can stop terror. Abbas won`t stop terror, hence is no partner for peace... Don`t really see israel giving up the west bank. Being dragged kicking and scraming, yes, but whos gonna do it?

It is Abbas, and not the zionist state, who has demanded a stop to electricity delivery to Gaza. It was not clear to me whether or not electricity has already been cut off. (Source: BBC)

Israel has offered and is offering the Palestinians a 2 state solution - A Jewish state and Palestinian state. The Palestinians refuse. They use whatever territory they have to move up and attack Israel. If the Palestinians insist on settling all of the West Bank and Israel proper, then Israel may as well do it first.

I hope that quy in the picture has the good sence to make shure that machine is off.

Duncan, I'm afraid if Israel will refrain from using nukes (and not just one...), the Iranian response might cost more than a few Israeli lives. And if she is using nukes against the Iranian people in a pre-emptive strike, Israel will become the "paria" of the world for a long, long time. So, if I would be Israeli, I would still try to take the diplomatic route. And very much so.

They could be posted inside Israeli territory that is convenient for Palestinians.

Gina hello Now that I read your post to our dear KUTW, I'll add this about what Abass should do(apart from what you have already mentioned)and it is to additionally get rid of his Fatah's "Al-Aksa-Martyr Brigade" that kill,and arrest anyone from Fatah who may collude with Israel are killed summarily.Joseph E explained in his post and I was unaware it happened today in Hebron.That is the problem over there.Be it Hamas,Fatah et al,there are also many other factions+tribes+clans+influential families who rule the roost and interfer daily.There's the RUB!

On Thursday, Olmert and Livni were begging for an international force to come to rescue them. And, now, they have swiveled 180 degrees. The events in Gaza and the ensuing verbal flailings of the zionist leadership indicates a complete lack of imagination and intelligence, in both senses of that word.

An inspiration to Hamas admirers? "taking position" LOL

nternational Community to Iran: UN Resolution 1737 Ambassador Wolff: "Iran's pursuit of a nuclear weapons capability constitutes a grave threat and demands a clear statement from the Security Council. Today, we are placing Iran in the small category of states under Security Council sanctions, and sending Iran an unambiguous message that there are serious repercussions to its continued disregard of its obligations and defiance of this important body." [more | Statement by Secrethttp://www.state.gov/p/nea/ci/c2404.htm

Hannah, don't worry, I'm not jumping on any bandwagon. If you read my posts, I'm pleading for a stra- tegy of de-escalation, not escalation when it comes to the conflict with Iran. And don't ask me through which channels exactly the weapons are going into Gaza. But it can hardly be denied, that there is a strategic alliance between Iran and Hamas. And if it's only "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" factor. The question would be, whether Hamas gets more (financial) support today from Iran of from the Saudis. I assume it's the Saudis, but I have no proof for that claim.

I do not wish for the disappearence of the Jewish state. In fact i hope for peace and prosperity for the Jewish people. However what is unacceptable is what seems to be this greed for land, or the continued subjugatuion, expulsion and oppression of the Pals for a 3000 yr bible story. You have the Pals killed, evicted and barred from land they have lived on for millenia only to settle it with immigarants from ethopia or were ever you can get them from. Is there no land in Isreal proper ? From what i see there are large empty spaces. Well we all know what happened to the greedy pyhon in the florida swamps that tried to swallow a native allegator.

Sam As though nobody knows about the Taliban,the Russians and the fact of the ancient "bamiyan" statues destroyed by those terrorists Talibans. And she replies like a child herself by telling you not to read children's stories,or if you have any grandchildren?Naive is a very mild word where she is concerned,because she is only here to promote her agenda on the Palis'and disregards anything else. Just sent her a reply,but decided to read yours to confirm what you had written and quite correct it was too.

"Most probably it would be the only chance to prevent an Iranian nuclear bomb, if the U.S. would give the Iranians a non-attack guarantee. " disagree on that. the iranians are quite determined on getting the bomb, because how they are going to get rid of the zionists otherwise. a non-attack guarantee is the best guarantee that Iran will get the bomb. that is why the usa will never give them that. " I think everything should be done in order to prevent a full scale war, because I`m afraid an attack on Iran might not end as lenient for Israel as the attack 25 years ago against Iraq. " the iranins have promised terror attacks if their nuclear capcity is removed. Good to know on advance. Obviously the attcaks on Iran when removing their nuclear option will have to be of sufficient severity tht they are not able to respond with terror on Israel or anyone else. Duncan

lakshmi I have not read Sam's post,but,when it inconveniences you(as you did with me about the true story on "dalkavuks")You replied in the same vein by saying:Children's stories and refered me,and Same to "grandchildren" You are funny lakshmi....

Why on earth would you hold Hamas responsible for these deaths? Many of the dead were also Hamas members. Such is the nature of such armed confrontations. Of course, each of the now-dead was someone's son, etc., and that is sad. Why not try using your head before posting such junk?

Does Hamas give you a list of cliches to answer other posters?

Tosefta I have the whole document and there was no such mention of what you purport he wrote/said. I cannot put out the whole article of course, but can go back and read it again if you wish. I've got it in my "in-box" and can make sure which I am sure wasn't wrong in what I interpretated from his article. The article in question was written this month. Are you reading a diferent one??Unlikely.. Firstly the title was "About Hamastan"and to avoid it.I only managed to put out the last === paragraph which in essense is what he thought and what the alternative is. See you later perhaps

Kim, that's exactly what I had in mind with my post to Cipora. Most probably it would be the only chance to prevent an Iranian nuclear bomb, if the U.S. would give the Iranians a non-attack guarantee. I think everything should be done in order to prevent a full scale war, because I'm afraid an attack on Iran might not end as lenient for Israel as the attack 25 years ago against Iraq.

and you don't have a problem with that?http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/10/20/hezbollah_used_cluster_bombs_rights_group_states/ Also, while Israel targets terrorists, Hezbollah targets all Jews, including women and children.http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1164881992801

far away from israel.You should be warning hapless Lebanon,about the next batch of clusters coming their way.4 million dropped and 1 million left unexploded killing and maiming women and children.It's israel the world has to worry about.Do the good deed for the day.Warn the Lebanese,will you ?

Why do you agree with Ms Kohn that Iran is supply arms to Hamas? Take a look at the map of the area in order to see the difficult logistics involved in that. It is much more likely that these arms are being bought on the very open arms market, and then brought into Gaza. How? By sea, by tunnel, etc.? By who? Hamas, Egyptian Brotherhood? I don't know the answers to these questions, but I can easily see that it would be folly for one state, in this case anti-American Shiite Iran, to transport arms to Hamas through another state, in this case pro-American, Sunni Egypt. Please don't jump on the Iran-is-responsible-for-all-evil bandwagon without thinking it through.

That was a great analysis by Dennis Ross on the West Bank. I hope it is implemented.

If find it passibly odd that, for the first time, I agree with everything in your post.

Maybe they can knock some sense into your head. Or perhaps Hamas is paying you and the money is too good to care about anyone else's life.

Any peace agreement with Abbas is unenforceable since Hamas is in control. In the past Abbas has not kept his peace agreements with Israel. He formed a coalition government with Hamas - for political reasons..However, both are determined to destroy Israel. Abbas has been a figleaf - pretending to be a moderate when in fact, his Fatah members killed just as many Jews as Hamas: http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

You post: "Olmert should remenber that he must go, then we will become a democratic state." Pardon me? Was he not voted into office by you and yours? What on earth could you possibly mean by "democratic"?

You say in you post to Lakshmi: "Israel needs to make no concessions." At this point, it doesn't really matter what so-called Israel does or doesn't do. Each and every possible step now left open to the zionists will result in the unavoidable victory of the duly elected Palestinian government of Hamas.

"The Three State Solution preserves the integrity of a contiguous Jewish homeland - no more talk of "safe passage" for terrorists slicing through Israel`s heart." There definitely won't be two way travel while Hamas is in charge of Gaza.

I agree with you, Raymond. The zionists in the USA and the Middle East have now been effectively neutered. There is now nothing that they can do to avoid total disaster. If they 'help' Abbas, Hamas wins; if they don't help Abbas, Hamas wins.

I agree with you. Allow Gaza to languish in its hollow murderous victories, embellished with the establishment of Sharia law and continued international isolation. Give the West Bank a chance to be involved with a peace plan -- Abbas must arrest those who dispatch suicide bombers, however. And media hatred of the Israeli / Jewish people must cease immediately. From children's programs to adult viewing. Palestinian officials in the West Bank must speak of encourage peace in the media statements.

As Ross says, the siege should be lifted and the West Bank develop. But the main thing is to negotiate peace with the Palestinians (and it all could have been done already). Without a peace agreement, things will blow up again. And the main obstacle for peace are the Israeli demands, because the Palestinians have already come to terms, more or less. But Olmert still has the "wall" as his imagined border. I am not too optimistic here. I don't agree that the goal has to be to make Gaza a model of failure. If a peace agreement with Abbas is made, Israel can go in, eliminate Hamas from Gaza, and give the area to Abbas. The Pals will not be bought by models of success or failure. They want a country of their own.

The present situation is the direct result of the Israeli policy of besieging the Hamas government to death. You can pressure somebody up to a certain limit so he can modify his behavior. But if the pressure continues regardless, the opponent has nothing more to lose and can take desperate action. Hamas modified its behavior as a result of the world`s pressure. It accepted the Prisoners` Document, agreeing that Abbas will negotiate with Israel and the result will be brought to a referendum. This was the basis of the unity government. In addition, voices were heard in Hamas of accepting a state within `67 borders. But Olmert and Bush did not know where to stop. No peace negotiations as long as the Hamas government is in power. They encouraged Abbas to keep undermining the Hamas government, and finally we see what is happening now.

Trying to weaken Hamas by helping Fatah is a fool's game. Both groups are mortal enemies of Israel. Israel shouldn't lift a finger to help Fatah. Any aid given to Fatah will ultimately end up with Hamas.

Hamas is determined to destroy Israel. What peace agreement is possible...Do you see how the agreement between Fatah and Hamas worked out? Hamas is murdering Fatah members in their homes execution style - right in front of their women and children...What kind of peace can you have with these people? http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/06/hamas-is-executing-fatah-fighters-in.html

So now you see the zionist state in role of the little Dutch boy with his finger in the hole in the dyke?? Such an imagination you have.

You forget that today's situation is a direct legacy of Sharon's policies. His chickens have indeed come home to roost.

Egypt has been permitting the PA to smuggle in weapons and terrorists so that they can attack Israel. Egypt has been buying F-16s and arming itself to the nines....for which enemy? You guessed it - Israel. The arab world wants Israel destroyed...for 60 years...The peace accord with Sadat is in name only.

The invaders fled [Gaza] The army of the Jews was defeated The home and the homeland is returning through [Palestinian] blood Not through negotiations, surrender, or promises Allah the Great, be pleased by the sound of thunder...! We will never accept the enemies in the land of our fathers... The invaders fled [Gaza] The army of the Jews was defeated The home and the homeland is returning through [Palestinian] blood Not through negotiations, surrender, or promises... Let the enemies leave the entire land! And take their holy books, which are all black! Our flag was raised and spread out, O Jihad...! The invaders fled [Gaza] The army of the Jews was defeated The home and the homeland is returning through blood [Hamas website, February 2006] http://www.pmw.org.il/tv-hamas.htm

I believe, however, we should help Israel. It is a matter of humanity and also goes on our own interest. When Iran gets those nuclear weapons, the entire Europe will be under threat. It is best to help the Israelis because they are in the front line of this war.

One-third of the democratically elected Palestinian parliament, plus 11,000 Palestinians (including children) are currently being held in zionist jails. And you worry about Shalit?? Have you no sense of proportion, let alone justice?

I guess Tosefta needs to grow up also. He seems to be suggesting compromise on Israel,s side which could lead to an end to the occupation. Regards.

grandchildren?

Arabs and pro-Palestinians keep threatening Israel to dismantle and to settle for their existence as individuals in Arab countries or elsewhere. You don't have a hope in hell that that will ever happen.

I totally agree with you. However, I'm afraid after the events of last week, it might take quite some time till the Palestinians will speak with one voice again. But as I stated in my post, the bloody days of Gaza still might end in something positive, if Abbas restores law and order in the West Bank, and Israel shows some good will. In the end, it would then be the choice of Hamas and the people in Gaza, whether they wanna jump on the (West Bank) train. Hopefully they will.

"The only thing in life that is certain, is the fact that nothing is certain". One more old Swiss saying.

Tosefta So,Hamas is in charge of Gaza.Situation there is terrible.They are a terror entity not recognized by the majority of the world at large and cannot survive without outside help. So,I am repeating what Denis Ross said. Make the West Bank work -- socially, economically and institutionally -- then hold up a model of success in contrast to the failure of Gaza, where functional unemployment is close to 70 percent. Let Hamas preside over a dysfunctional, lawless state. Create understandings with Jordan and Israel for at least economic confederation and security. And if Hamas still hangs on in Gaza, perhaps there can be a "three-state solution?. Moreover, while West Bank and Gaza Palestinians have much that divides them, they still have a common identity as Palestinians.

Joseph hello I understand your point of view,and personally speaking have no love for Abass because of the Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade affiliated to Abass. I would not trust any of them as far as I can throw them.But,if there is going to be any dialogue,who is there among them we an trust(even a little bit eh?).So Joseph,what would you suggest.It would help my understanding to a degree. Anyway,let us wait and see after Olmert returns from his yet another trip to see G.Wya and what will transpire.What I fervently hope is that "Georgy boy does not ask our P.M to restrain himself further.

What does Spains "revolutionary new plan" have to say here.No doubt had Abbas just listened to spain and you, Hamas would have been allowed to modertae right? After all you have declared Abbas "irrelevant" to decide on such issues.You really do belive the ego driven ludicrous assertions you make dont you!

Omlet proposes to bribe the pals in the WB into submitting to settler plans. They will take your bribes for now but will want true freedom in the end. The Pals will keep fighting for a state. 1st Gaza, then it will be parts of the WB, then it will the the rest of the WB outside the wall , Then it will be to the 67 lines. Then if it is too late the isreali arabs will want their states as well . You cant stop it. Isreal smell the coffe, Just negotiate. Before it is too late.

Let?s hope Gilad Shalit will be back soon.

But there is also no more Israeli excuse for not negotiating a West Bank withdrawal with Mahmoud Abbas, at least if he succeeds to keep the West Bank calm". ... (1)As long as the fatah organisation calls for the detruction of Israel,and has a terror wing the assumption must be that fatah is interested in temporary calm, to renew improved attacks on Israel when it has got what it can out of Israel through negotiations. (2)according to the road map which abbas has signed the palestinins have to dismantle terror groups, so far they have yet to do so. If they do so and and give up gaza the palestinians have a bright future. However I believe that abbas is too weak to do either of those steps. duncan

Perhaps this is the solution. If they continue launching quassams, Israel should retaliate without restraint. The pals in the West Bank may have learned the lesson and be prepared to live peacefully.

I think you could use the Prozac, given your tendency to hallucinate. So far, the Palestinians have proven me right about their habitual knack for failure. And I have no interest in a "Greater Israel," a belief which you attribute to me. In fact, in numerous past posts I have advocated a two-state solution IF THE PALESTINIANS ARE CAPABLE OF EARNING THAT STATUS. So far, they are failing miserably. I think WWACD has got you paranoid, but I don't think it takes that much to do that to you. I'm out for the day, but I leave you in his/her capable hands. Be a good boy.

A DEATHLY HUSH FROM THE LAST CHANCE FOR PEACE QUARTER

The subjected is being raised.

It is in Israels intrests to at least come a deal with Abbas about israeli withdrawl.Implementation needs to be dependant on a number of legitimate demands but the basic process must be started.israel muts try to free itself from this as soon as possible.Why should israel continue to waste billions of dollars every year to shore up 5% of the population at the great expense of the rest of the population.No this madness and waste has gone on long enough.

"Israeli political sources said Wednesday that the Hamas takeover requires that Israel reexamine its ties with the Gaza Strip, and whether it will continue its economic ties, the infrastructure links - providing of fuel and electricity from Israel." - Haaretz As the politicos reexamine the question of ties with Gaza, they will discover to their great sorrow that Israel never relinquished complete control over Gaza, and Gaza is still LEGALLY UNDER OCCUPATION by Israel. The Geneva Convention and other international humanitarian laws place obligations on Israel with regard to Gaza. If Israel does not want to supply electricity, it will have to supply generators to Gaza, at least for basic needs, and then make sure they get enough fuel to operate them. And food and water will need to be provided, as well as access to humanitarian aid. The main indicators of Israeli continued control over Gaza: 1. Israel continues to control Gaza airspace and territorial waters. 2. Israel continues to control the Gaza border with Egypt from the GAZA side, by having its agents the Europeans there to make sure its regulations are followed; including closing the border whenever Israel so desires. 3. Israel reserved the right to enter Gaza at will, for any reason. 4. Israel continues to control population registry. Only those registered as Gaza residents are allowed into Gaza.

Keep on dreaming baby, things have changed over the past week. Your wishful thinking of a Palestinian failure won't help change the reality: It will work exactly the other around, as long as Hamas will not recognize Israel, Gaza will be left alone and the focus will shift quickly to the West Bank. So all-time refuseniks like CHGODMK/WWACD will probably soon see their project "Greater Israel" go down the river. Learn to live with it. Prozac may help....:)

"A government that is not a Hamas government is a partner [for peace]," - Olmert 1. Let us recall that Abbas was elected President in Jan 2005 while Hamas was elected Jan 2006. We had a partner which nobody (especially Sharon) knew about. 2. By the time the Unity Government was established (March 2007), Israel could have negotiated with Abbas (Hamas agreed, even to put the deal to a referendum). There will now be no referendum. Israel will conduct the same negotiations, with the same man, who will be unreliable as far as Gaza, unless Israel re-enters. 3. Not easily foreseeable in advance, but let us recall that it was Sharon who insisted that the Palestinians change their constitution to appoint a Prime Minister with significant powers. He wanted to reduce Arafat's power. It is regrettable Abbas does not have the same old powers. Arab society functions better under a "ruler" (Sultan/Emir/Prez). 4. The sin of the endless occupation is too long to discuss here.

Some would question you about those Arabs who fled Israel in 1947-1948. I would answer to them that they may settle perminently in the countries in which they presently live, as Jews who fled Arab countries in at least the same numbers during the e same conflict have settled in Israel, while others found their place in France, Canada, US and Australia. Keep up your posting, especially along the lines that you suggest. I hear a good number of Israelis think this way.

......opportunity not to be missed: totally right. It is certainly worth a try. However, the Palestinians need to think of all of Palestine. Hopefully PM Fayyad and his cabinet soon have Pal ballots backing them. That would make the task of getting peace, dignity and happiness much easier. To go for peaceful coexistence of two states side by side IS NOT TREASON, but probably THE LAST REALISTIC POSSIBILITY for peace! If Hamas can get it that Israel ALSO needs to exist (though in other borders etc.) and CHANGE its Charta all the better! It's really a reason for crying if basic right of existence not admitted after generations (60 years of existence).

Are you sure of what you are writing this time ? or also doubds ?

Good proposition to return gaza to Egypt . There is only one big problem : Egypt do'nt want them . Do you know that during the Egyptian occupation of this territory [ 1948 - 67 ] those Gazans were not allowed into Egypt !

It has obviously escaped your concern that Israel is overall responsible (and should be accountable) for developments in GS as well as WB since 1948.

WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO GET A HINDU OR CHRISTIAN PRESIDENT ?? LACKEY ARE YOU CHEWING BETEL NUT ?? AND WHO THREATENED TO USE AN ATOMIC WEAPON OVER KASHMIR !!LET ME THINK ?? WHY IT WAS MUSLIM COUNTRY !!

Al Quaeda and the Taliban are also Moslem resistance groups. After The Moslems liberated Afghanistan from the Russians, the radical Moslem Taliban "liberated" the Moslems with a more radical Islam. They destroyed the Buddhist statues. Hamas is radical Islam and if they could get their fingers around Indian Moslems (let alone Hindu Indians) they would impose their radical Islam which is their universal goal. You wouldn't be writing on Haaretz.

Duncan, maybe you wanna have a look again at my earlier post # 37, where I wrote the following: "But there is also no more Israeli excuse for not negotiating a West Bank withdrawal with Mahmoud Abbas, at least if he succeeds to keep the West Bank calm". And that will be his challenge indeed. However, I assmume, it will be a lot easier to achieve that without all the Gaza-ballast, especially when it comes to the firing of rockets, which has been a Gaza-only phenomena. To sum it up: A (Fatah) West Bank state can hardly be made responsible for the (Hamas) Gaza actions. That has changed over the past few days.

no way should israel give in to terrorist they gave the land in good will gaza`one of the biggest exports destination for fruit as the bible say i will bring you back to your own land and the whole world will taste your fruit oh thank you israel for the jaffa oranges we get in austraila and thank you God for fullfilling your prophecy with 100% accuracy ANOTHER PROPHECY FOR THE MUSLIMS YOU WILL LIVE IN THE FATNESS OF THE LAND BUT YOU WILL LIVE BY THE SWORD AND KILL EACHOTHER HO THANK YOU GOD FOR TELLING MOSES THIS WHEN YOU SPOKE TO ISAC ON HIS DEATH BED HO THANK YOU GOD AS I CAN NOT DENY YOU HO GOD THANK YOU FOR SHOWING ME WHAT EVIL RELIGON CAN DO

I agree wholeheartedly. Still, for the sake of formality, we should put the Palestinians to the test. I say make them establish a mini-state in Gaza and show the word that they're capable of doing something constructive. They should be forced to do this, and the reward for doing it right for 50 years will be talks over whether or not they can add the West Bank to their state. Those talks should last for another 50 years, to show the world in this probationary period that the Palestinians can engage in long-term negotiations without resorting to murder. Don't worry, the Palestinians will fail on day-one, and then the world can cease feeding its illusions about Palestinian self-determination.

What is really interesting to read on this forum from Hamas defenders is that they are very much concerned about democratically elected Hamas to stay in power, but they have absolutely no concerns about dozens of Palestinians killed by Hamas in the last few days. I am sure that relatives of those killed will democratically elect Hamas again. Is this correct that if one Palestinian is killed by Israel it is tradgedy, but if 100 of them killed by Hamas - not a big deal? Clickfool, indrajaya and other deep thinkers, please respond

"Thanks" to the Gaza events, a golden opportuni- ty is now presented to Israel on a silver plate: Will the Israeli leadership and public take advantage of it...??? " ..... I am not quite sure what the golden opportunity is here. fatah's charter still calls for the destruction of israel and abbas is too weak to repeal it as it is very popular even with the palestinians of the west bank. Abbas is also to weak to disown and split off the fatah terror orgnisation al aqsa martyr brigades from fatah. If the eu bans hamas because of its terror wing it can hardly claim that fatah is a moderate organanisation when it also has a terror wing. makes negotiating with abbas rather pointless doesnt it ? Duncan

It is Jewish land. The GOD of Abrahaam gave it to them and no one can take it away. This struggle will continue until the very end when the Messiah himself returns to Earth to put a stop to it. No matter how bad anyone wants peace, it will require the Messiah to put an end to it, and he WILL rule. The Arabs are interlopers and will lose in the end.

We are not worried about Hamas.They have behaved honourably throughout the last few years.We in India,have a Muslim president and a Sikh PM.The Muslims of India are by and large content to live there.A Muslim cleric recently composed a song for Muslim schoolchildren:"India our country, the best country in the world!" A Muslim blogger recently posted:"Israel has a long way to go before it catches up with India." Try for some historical understanding,Sam, not get tangled in Platonic hypostasis. There is no uniform Muslim response to events, much as you would like to believe. Repeat:Hamas is a Palestinian Resistance Movement engaged in a liberation struggle and an honourable and noble one at that!

Yesssssssssssssss !!! Hi Kath, that's pretty much what I was preaching here for a long, long time now. Unfortunately it probably took the events of last week to give it a chance. Dennis Ross is correct, you should try it just once by offering people a real perspective, to show them that "good behaviour" will really pay off. People want bread and butter, move around freely, a lovely wife, kids, and having fun on the weekend. I very much doubt that "mainstream" Palestinians (at least on the West Bank) think differently. There is no 100 % guarantee that it will work, but it should definitely be worth a try.

Last update - 12:54 17/06/2007 ,Fatah kills suspected collaborator with Israel in West Bank hospital , By The Associated Press , Palestinian militants on Sunday shot and killed a man they suspected of collaborating with Israel, as he lay on the X-ray table at a hospital in the West Bank city of Nablus,... said the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, which is affiliated with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party... Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades officials confirmed that the organization had killed Jouri. Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel are often shot and killed by militant groups. " , After Condi fixing up to Olmert Jdates with Abbas , did Olmert developed preferences to "talk" with "shaved" partners despite such type of report , Or was Olmert bribed with a Condi Jdate's Guarder , Just so Bush could withdraw US forces from Iraq in cooperation with Iran and Syria on the Back of Jews Homeland ,

1- You forgot 4 million Palestinians dispersed throughout other Arab states, Europe, the Americans, and Australia. All of them are waiting to go back home (surprise, surprise, Palestine!). 2- Jerusalem was given up to the Palestinians pending its final status negotiations (Why do you want to reverse history? Jeruslam is Palestinian. It is not Jordanian, nor Egyptian). 3- The settlements. Right. The ones built after the Oslo accords, and their populations, should be thrown back to Israel proper. Approximately 400,000 people affected. Not our problem, they defied international law by settling on Palestinian occupied lands. 4- Fatah, Hamas, Third Way, PFLP, and all other factions shall have no choice but to let aside their differences, and proclaim the state of Palestine over 100% of the West Bank and Gaza, with possible land swaps. The refugees will either come back to Palestine or have their rights SETTLED fairly, with Israel paying its share. Any other questions?

by both the PA and the Israeli Government. The PA has finally rid themselves of this fanatical entity, they should now concentrate in doing 110% for the Palestinians; and seek valuable helps from the world communities to improve their quality of lives. The kidnapped Hamas members should be well treated rather than using them for "vengence Killings" Show Mercy instead. As for Israel, it is a real opprtunity 2B involv JUST/FAIR Negociations ( as real PARTNERS). Israel now has to make worthwhile concessions,say, according to the valuable Saudi INITIATIVE. The time to help Abbas is NOW, get rid of the road blocks, illegal outposts, allow him to build houses where ex Settlements were, give back all the Pals. TAX REVENUES ($700 ++),& the International aids that are on hold, etc. Remember that people who are fully occupied in building their infrastuctures,free in their movements, and have good foods on their table, in fact HAPPY PEOPLE does not need to FIGHT anybody.Salaam/Shalom

So why didnt he negotiate with abbas BEFORE Hamas was in power??Look at the dummy Olmert, years of avoiding negotiations with abbas have now forced him to negotiate with abbas!!!

Do you think that your "Shadow Monster" Iran gives a rat's ass about the Palis....they just want to widen their influence...a Greater Iran if you will. They will hang the Palis out to dry like Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. Ahmadinejad may act crazy but he know if he goes after Israel, Tehran as we know it will be gone. Sorry to vaporize all your good plans, Ol' Chap.

after they finish with West Bank. Lakshmi to thank them for their pragmatism.

Hello to Cipora & Dino Just a repeat of what Denis Ross said about the present situation.I am paraphrasing his last "paragraph".So here goes. Repetion is Tosefta's "forte",so I am not unduly perturbed in doing it here.I said the same on another forum concerning the fragile process in the P.A versus Hamas. Denis Ross suggests this: Make the West Bank work -- socially, economically and institutionally -- then hold up a model of success in contrast to the failure of Gaza, where functional unemployment is close to 70 percent. Let Hamas preside over a dysfunctional, lawless state. Create understandings with Jordan and Israel for at least economic confederation and security. And if Hamas still hangs on in Gaza, perhaps there can be a "three-state solution?. Moreover, while West Bank and Gaza Palestinians have much that divides them, they still have a common identity as Palestinians.

Of course there is a link between Iran and Hamas, who would wanna deny that. But honestly, I am not really worried that the Turks (Iranians) will knock on the Vienna (Zürich) door next month. I am afraid, unlike Al-Kaida, this is clearly a regional problem that you guys will have to deal with by yourself. The Iranians surely may have their regional aspirations, but first and upmost they don't wanna be attacked (by the way, when has Iran for the last time attacked a neighbour...???). And therefore, if there is any hope for a diplomatic solution to the Iranian nuclear problem, then it will be a "non-attack" guarantee given by the U.S. governement to the Iranian regime. The only alternative is a full out war, which might probably lead to WW3. I don't have to tell you, which route I would take....

Dear Ralph, I can assure you, I am not a "Leftie" in Switzerland, I am pretty much a fiscal conservative centrist. However, in Israel my views on foreign policy might be considered as slightly "Leftie" indeed. Which again says a lot about the different political world-views in both countries.

Don't worry Jamsmine, the Swiss-Dino "Luft- menschen" balloon keeps on flying and flying and he also keeps on watching and giving a (shy) advice once in a while. The only question is: Will someone (in Israel) listen...??? Or will all my efforts just be "good for the cat"....??? "Being good for the cat" in Swiss-German = "Being good for nothing".

A few days ago, I was just as against the idea of Israel intervening in Gaza, and losing Israeli life, as many other posters here. But it has become obvious that something very wrong has occured in Gaza, and that this will impact Israel and US interests in the region. Olmert, characteristically dense, is branding this moment as a new opportunity, when it is clear it is a moment he and Israel have lost. Hamas now has Gaza, regardless of Abbas' statements on the matter. For all intents and purposes, Gaza is lost, and Olmert telling Bush that the West Bank must not be lost is merely a case of stating the obvious. The key lies in whether or not Fatah can effectively fight off Hamas and regain lost ground. So far, Fatah has proven to be ineffective. There are far-reaching consequences for the region in this, far-reaching consequences that Iran will definitely enjoy at the expense of Israel and the US. Surely Olmert can get a clue and not reiterate what we already know.

RAYMONDE SITTING IN SUNNY DUBLIN POINTS US ALL TO AN OLD ARAB CUSTOM!! NOTHING NEW HERE ITS BEEN GOING ON FOR CENTURIES . ABBAS IS ALREADY PLAYING OUT A SPENT MUSICAL COMEDY

In order to believe in good, you must be good yourself. Unfortunately that determination can be made only by a higher being.

Olmert and Bush have no concept of diplomacy, nothing but contempt for diplomacy, and could never see, or take advantage of an opportunity for diplomacy. They have actively pursued this crisis, acting on impulse. Neither anticipated this would be the result of their actions, and neither can possibly make use of it.

West Bank reverting to Jordanian sovreignty and all its citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, becoming Jordanian citizens. And it will be with Jordan that Israel will negotiate and close a peace deal. It is also time Egypt took over the Hamastan (Gaza Strip) and applied Egyptian sovreignty over that territory and Egyptian citizenship to all its residents. The Arab world, Israel and the international community should assist in this undertaking by way of finally bring to a close this problem of the Palestinians. Now is the time. Let's do it.

Olmert should remenber that he must go, then we will become a democratic state.

...keep on believing into the good intentions deep inside the Israeli soul. To believe in the good is the last resort of mankind. Fair enough...???

Whitch planet are you from? Are you reading the same news, listening the same chanels. It is always the same story with the left, they have eyes, they§do not see, they have ears, they do not listen.....

"meanwhile, Israel will have to make many concessions," so says lakshmi. That is where you are wrong. Israel needs to make no concessions.

fatah does not act stupidly,despite Abbas's appointment of a new government hamas will continue to act as if they were the government,which indeed they are.Meanwhile,Israel will have to make many concessions,most important of all consider the Arab Initiative.The Arabs,while supporting Abbas(Egypt,Jordan and Saudi Arabia) continue to stress the need for a unified government.Syria and other in the Arab League support both hamas and abbas.

Why is it so hard to understand that both the US & Israel screwed things up so badly by failing to shore Abbas' ruling when they had a chance to do that. The rest of us understand it, but I suppose we are not stupid politicians, rather just ordinary people with common sense.

These European Luftmenschen believe happily that it is only the Jews of Israel who are under threat and if they mend their ways - become less Jewish, straighten their hooked noses? - all will be well with the Moslems who will be satisfied with the meal provided by gobbling up the Jews. We are only an appetiser for the real thing: the Goths are at the gate of Europe once more, but this time it is in the guise of the Moors of old, the Moslems who have plans to remake the glories of the European civilisation into the shape of the prisons of the Middle East. The fashions of the catwalk will be no more, replaced by the fashions of the hareem. They will shake their heads unbelievingly and blame the Jews if there are any left.

Foolclick Q1. In 1970, when the PLO were nurtured in Jordan, who and which organization staged a bloody coup attempt, whith led to the infamous "Black September" episode, where the Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan and escaped to Lebanon? Q2. In Lebanon, whose militias caused a bloody power struggle that triggered the Lebanese civil war? (A hint for someone blind to reality, like you seem to be: Long before Israel became involved). Q3. Who threw in the towel in the Peace negotiations with the Israelis and started the second Intifada? Israel or the Palestinians? Q4. Whose leadership led to the mushrooming of countless Palestinian militia over the last decade, where a "divide and conquer" strategy was employed to destabilize each one of them enough so that he could consolidate his rule? Q5. Whose corrupt leadership resulted in the squandering of Billion upon Billion of dollars channeled to the Palestinians over the last decade? Where did the money go to

Olmert's latest self-deluding plan will have one inevitable consequence, which is precisely the opposite to what he intends: Abbas and co. will be seen by all Palestinians as incorrigible collaborators with the enemy, and Hamas's "rise" in the West Bank (and don't forget that Hamas won the Jan 2006 elections throughout the Occupied Territories) will be only a matter of time.

"I will assume that there will be some pressure on them to give(most of) the West Bank back to the Palestinians." There might well be, Dino, but it won't happen. The West Bank is part of the Greater Israel project, still in construction. Israel is (with its settlements, arterial roads, army areas of control and walls) at this very moment constructing ghettos on the West Bank - North West Bank, South West Bank, Inner East Jerusalem, Outer East Jerusalem. Ghetto Palestine was always the war criminal, Ariel Sharon's dream and the Israelis are at this very moment implementing it.

Those in power have usually either won a democratic election or staged a military coup d'etat. The irony of the present situation in Gaza is that Hamas has now done both!!!!! and the rest of the world has absolutely no idea what to do about it. If Hamas now adopts a slightly less beligerent attitude towards Israel the disaster for America and her Allies will be even worse.

Cipora, I still have to be convinced on that Al Kaida/Hamas link. There may be indeed some ideological common causes, but while Al Kaida has a global agenda, Hamas clearly doesn't. Or have we ever seen any Hamas bombings against Western (non-Israeli) targets...??? "Thanks" to the Gaza events, a golden opportuni- ty is now presented to Israel on a silver plate: Will the Israeli leadership and public take advantage of it...??? It may be the last chance to save the project of Israel as a Jewish state.

that it is the bastion of democracy,peace and goodwill.That game is over.And so is the dominance of America which kept this artificial state propped up.There are new players in the region.Of the two scenarios,the Abbas led west bank state and the once more unified Palestinian state,I place my bet on the latter.The Abbas project won't last very long.Except for Jordan Egypt and Saudi Arabia the Arab League has clearly said that they support both Hamas and Abbas and even the Saudis are leaning in that direction.

Clickfool, honestly, I don't see things as pessimistic anymore. The Gaza coup was probably the best thing that could happen to the "Geneva plan" supporters. It has to be seen, whether Olmert/Barak would really be willing to "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk", but I will assume that there will be some pressure on them to give (most of) the West Bank back to the Palesti- nians. It will then be up to Hamas, whether they wanna jump on the train, or not. If things calm down and the civil war doesn't proceed, then those were actually quite "good" days for both Palestinians and reasonable Israelis.

The nightmare is the rise of murderous totalitarian ideologies being supported by far left lunatics. Iran is at Europe's doorstep, in Syria, Lebanon, and now in Gaza. Only Israel stands in the way of millions of hard core fanatics with their missiles and death cult with their eyes fixed on Europe.

"Nightmares, nightmares, nightmares..." Over to the East the biggest creature of the night slowly rises up. Israel and America have no-one to blame but themselves.

Change : One Kg Kalashnikov for One Kg of sugar

He wants to make a deal with Abbas, who is a holocause denying terrorists and still has no authority at all?

of the situation here at all. Where are your sources? Hamas was allowed to run in elections including in Jerusalem which was against the Oslo accord. They are part of the Muslim Brotherhood whose aim is to conquer Israel and Europe and then the rest of the world. They throw people of roofs, massacre their own people, by weapons instead of food and call for the destruction of Israel and to kill Jews where ever they are. On the other side while US is not civilized in wars name another country apart from Israel which would drop leaflets before they bomb terrorists to warn the civilians in the area to leave??? Offer to send humanitarian aid to Gaza when the democratically elected leaders call for our destruction. etc..

Israel has terrorists on each of its borders including Sinai, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, and the west bank. then there is Iran supporting, funding and arming them. If Arabs took orders from US there would be peace already. If the Arabs are weak and tired why does it seem that they have all the energy starting mini wars throughout the middle east. Remember they had all the land that they claim to want before 1967 and the PLO charter in 1964 still called for taking over Israel.

Nice message, but I think the Bonehead is just drifting off to sleep at a particularly boring moment. He's using his hands to prop up his lolling head.

Lets see how far Abbas could go in his own way, while ignoring the HAMAS-dominated legislative and his own UNITY GOVERNMENT cabinet members under Saudi Accord Umbrella. Who is the REAL perpetrator of the civil unrest here, HAMAS or FATAH? If he thinks he could get away with this, he is INSANE. This is a long run struggle, BABY, not only a week time or so fighting and then it's over.

Olmert is blinded by denial of his past failures and is now just another puppet of the Arabists in the US State Dept. The Three State Solution preserves the integrity of a contiguous Jewish homeland - no more talk of "safe passage" for terrorists slicing through Israel's heart. Let the Islamo-Facists have their little Hamastan; and if they launch rockets, lob artillery into downtown Gaza City until they sue for peace. Not one single drop of Jewish blood is worth spilling over this third world sewer, no re-occupation or incursions! Screw them, wall it off and walk away.

That's it Shalom, brother, whose name means peace, I am putting you on my list :0) (prayer list, for blessings abundant!!!

The only way a governemnt falls is for the people to turn against it. Israel must make life so hard for the Gaza people that they would wish the Israeli's would be in charge. ONLY then will Hamas fall. To bomb or send aid there is crazy but thats just what the Israel governement is Stupid fools and imbeciles (so that makes the voters the same) It seems amost all Israel's have all lost sight of reality.

The smartest move - MAKE EGYPT TAKE BACK ITS LAND AND PEOPLE - when Israel returned Egypts captured lands - they never should have agreed to hold on to GAZA

""A government that is not a Hamas government is a partner [for peace]," Olmert told reporters as he was leaving for the U.S. on a three-day visit. " A government that is not a Hamas government is no government at all. The head-nodders and stooges that Israel's Uncle Tom has put together for his administration are fit only for rubber-stamping Israeli demands. But perhaps this is what Olmert is excited about.

What will it take to show some kind of effective leadership from Israel? Its Lebanon fiasco emboldened its enemies: that 4,000 rockets can be fired into Israel without being annihilated. Hamas' Gaza can be another front where thousands of rounds can also be launched into Israel. Either you grow calluses on your heart, or BLEED TO DEATH!! ISRAEL NEED SHARON-type LEADERS, NOT bleeding hearts who will allow enemies of the Jewish Homeland to set about achieving their evil agendas.

If the Hamas coup has brought something good, then it is indeed the fact, that the stalemate, which has blocked any progress over the last years, has finally been removed. The Israeli leadership may think now that they have "carte blanche" to take action against Hamas in Gaza, if the rocket attacks don't stop. Fair enough. But there is also no more Israeli excuse possible for not negotiating a West Bank with- drawal with Ahmoud Abbas, at least if he succeeds to keep the West Bank calm. Honestly, if I would be a right-winger in Israel and the U.S., I wouldn't sleep very well those days. Nightmares, nightmares, nightmares...

And direct the path of his every thought. And Lord put your hand upon the leaders of our nations (Israel and the United States of America) and upon our nations; Bless us, that we may be a blessing and to You, the Holy One of Israel, be ALL the Glory, Honor and Praise - Amen

Abbas or Haniyeh want the same for Israel. How come such a disgraced PM as Olmert is allowed to drown Israel again?

like to say; I for one, wish for all to truly see the absolute beauty of His Majesty when they look toward my Savior God, Messiah Yeshua/Jesus/Iesous [Hebrew,English,Greek] according to His Word/teachings and the further teachings of His followers in the Bible. You cannot truly see Him and not Love Him and all that He lived by. No matter where you are or what you're going through, He can put a song in your heart and fill your heart with praise and gratitude. He is just so AMAZING!!! And I Love Him.

His recommendations have helped bring us to Hizbollah on the north and Hamas on the south. Syria and Iran are preparing. And he is now thinking about making concessions, further withdrawals. He does not seem to understand the weakness of our position, and how we must respond to it. No, he wants another maneuver, another trick which will seem to give us something, but rather undermine our security further. We had better get a new Prime Minister soon, one that can face the true situation we are in. A worsening situation.

assistance to move where they will according to whose government they want to abide by. They need to understand the consequences of the choice they make. Isreal should not have to clean up this mess alone and the powers that be do need to step up to bring relief to these people. MOST OF ALL, secular or non-secular, these people and ALL concerned need to have a very clear understanding of the doctrines the extremeists from ALL sides live by. Yes, it is time to "stand behind your Prophet" (as they say in Islam). People interact with others and the world around them largely based on waht they believe about God. The ME, though many are secular, most are somewhat to very religeous and this MUST be confronted; Because for the religeous, religeon will ALWAYS trump politics. And let's face it, we are all looking to the day the Lord will reign and there will be NO division between the two. How many other ways can I say it? What one believes pleases God is of utmost importance to

After every tragedy revealing disastrous mistakes would lead normal people to inevitable conclusions about the nature of the enemy. Not post-Zionists and anti-Semites, they are so obsessed with an unattainable two-state solution, to give clear and obvious falsehood legitimacy, and ensure that the actualization of Jewish rights are blocked by the world community, at all costs. The Palestinians will never have a State, because that is not their goal, their goal (even moderates) are the removal of Israel and the spiritual annihilation of Jewish spiritual supremacy, which is and has always been the only serious threat to inherited false Islamic doctrine.

Fatah has openly stated that they intend to destroy us in stages, while Hamas says that it will do it in one stroke. As far as I can see that is the major difference between them vis a vis Israel is concerned. Oslo was a failure, the withdrawal from Gaza was a failure. When will we realize that the Palestinians don't want a state? What they want is to destroy us.

Olmert thinks his strategy of DIVIDE and RULE is going to work out well this time. ABBAS credibility is no more than what MALIKI has in Iraq this time. He cut his left arms and leg in palestine to joint forces with a failed policy of Israel and the US in Middle East, isolated from his own people. What a sad sacrifice for a more uncertain FUTURE.

Abbas is an amazingly weak leader. Think carefully before planning on him.

How much money would you give to someone that keeps on telling the world that they at are going to kill you? They are lucky with what they are getting - Food, Water, Electricty