Olmert to Haaretz: Two-state solution, or Israel is done for

every thing that is happening in this world today is scripture. let it happen and then watch the seven vials pour out. jews will sell out their own nation that GOD gave them

Let's have a palestinian state as far as possible aweay from Israel, for example in the Northern sinai, possibly with a rail connection to East Jerusalem.peace with moslims means defeat. Jochai Rubinstein

Romans 11.1,2 1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew... 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Jacob is Israel. God is going to save Israel. The whole world is going to have big trouble. Not only Israel, but everybody on earth.

Again, I say, a minority population can be protected under a constitution. Jews in Israel can and should be protected no matter what the demographics. It's called a constitutional democracy ruled by law. Theocracies are doomed to the ash heap of history.

Olmert should resign.

Olmert is right. To those opposed to a 2-state solution, I say this: if the West Bank were to be incorporated into Israel, demographics would leave the Jews as a minority in Israel. That is where the South Africa analogy of the minority ruling the majority would come into play, and cost Israel a lot of support perhaps even in America. Is that in Israel's interests?

A two state solution would be viable, if you could get the powers that be (i.e. Hamas) to accept that. THEY, NOT ISRAEL, are the only obstacle to a two state solution.

I think, Olmert is very courageous and thinks very clearly. The point is, if the Arabs ever would be satisfied with the two state solution and stop terrorism. But Israel should do something, so that the whole world stops making a hobby of Israel bashing and hating. The Arabs have a great weapon, namely the ages old antisemitism, which is so endemic in worldscale. To change the rules of the game, that is what Israel should do.

Mr. McFarlan, I'm also from middle East , but an outsider, from Turkey,not jewish ,born muslim, so I try to explain the situation to another outsider. Israel has nothing to do with SA . The situation is bad , unjust etc. But, this is not an apartheid system as it was in SA. (Today the situation in SA is worse than it is was before, but that is another story) There are three kinds of Arabs regarding the problem , 1)the Arabs , who are Israeli citizens 2) Arabs who live in occupied territories and 3) refugeees .What olmert meant was, as far as I can think of, when all these Arabs would be Israeli citizens in a single state, all arabs would have a right to vote and they would very soon outnumber the Arabs and unless an system of apartheid would be implemented, and because that can't happen, Israel would cease to exist. This is a very clear demographic problem. An arabic majority and millions of jewish minority never makes a democracy. This would be an outright jok

The settlements are the result, not the cause-- If you want a truer idea of cause and effect, all you had to do is read the following-- Let's do it the easy way...Google "TIMELINES ISRAEL ARAB CONFLICT" Wikipedia, Answers.com & Concise Britannica....It?ll give you the facts you?re so obviously lacking. Arabs disrespected all agreements and violated them?Particularly the UN Partition Plan which set ups two states, one Jewish and the other Arab? Violating treaties, brings to mind the 1949 Armistice Agreement, which Nasser broke in 1956 when he blocked the Suez to Israeli shipping... 1967 - Nasser massed his armies on Israel's borders blaring that he was going to attack Syria was to be his partner in the attack?Prior to that Syria hade been shelling towns & villages in Northern Israel as a softening up tactic...... 1973 ? Yom Kippur War, Japanese style Pearl Harbor sneak attack, resulting in the destruction destruction of the attacking Egyptian & Syrian forces Treaties and Laws are a two way street...When one party to them refuses to abide by them, as the Arabs have, the other party isn't obliged to go along with it...

What about a confederation -like the one proposed for Cyprus- that will allow free move rights and limited residence rights; This would minimize the extremists effectivness

Israel will not be finished until God Almighty says she is finished. Olmert needs to be fired as Israel's leader. Where's Netanyahu when you need him? He would never sell Israel out.

he and those that follow him might occasionaly say they are our leaders or mention G-D but their actions say they do not believe G-D.our prophet isaiah describes the present situation well in isaiah 28:14-15 o scoffers who rule this people who are in jerusalem,because you have said,we have made a covenant with death,and with the grave we have made a pact.the overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by,for we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception.isaiah goes on to say they will be trampled by the overwhelming scourge as it passes though.

Those who speak with the Palestinians are speaking to themselves.Hamas was elected by the majority of the Palestinians to eliminate the Jewish State.If that is not a massage for the Government of Israel this Government must be deaf.Abbas can't change realities.The fact that those who elected Hamas with a majority votes are the real voice of the Palestinians. What Abbas and his Palestinian-Kadima party can do for them? Starve them to death to make them change their minds! No wonder the Israeli-Kadima finds a partner in the Palestinian-Kdima.Both speak the same language.Both are politicians of self-interest. Both are hungry for Jobs.Partners of convinience.Two wooden legs that can reach no where near Two State illusion. As for the Arab States that were present in Annapolis,they did not even show their faces. They were there to frighten Israel with their presence.Another voice from another majority.As for Dr Rice she finds her tablet and gave it to Israel to swallow.

http://imeu.net/news/article007134.shtml

Mark Lincoln # 13 Interesting post. There was an interview earlier this month that I missed that you may have also. Inline with what you have said. It can be found at http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/929439.html follow th efollowing link, Ehud Olmert to Haaretz: Israel must espouse unilateral separation - withdrawal to lines of its own choosing. Title of the article is ?Maximum Jews, minimum Palestinians?

Joshua's generation set the legal precedent for lands Israel was to inherit. G-d told Joshua: ?Now..go over this Jordan..to the land which I am giving to..the children of Israel.? (Josh. 1:2b) ?Every place..the sole of your foot.. treads upon I have given you, as I said to Moses." He clearly gave Israel the OPPORTUNITY to have everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River?But Joshua did not exercise the full option. He didn't conquer Lebanon, Syria, or modern Iraq. "Even tho David later drove the Jebusites from My beloved city; because Joshua did not defeat them I will allow a false peace that divides Jerusalem." "I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone, for all..who would heave it away..will surely be cut in pieces, tho all nations of earth..gather against it.? (Zech. 12:3) "A day is coming when My Son of David (Messiah) will stand on the Mt. of Olives.."[Zech. 14] to rescue & restore Israel. http://www.shilohouse.org

Olmert has commited treason against Israel and all the entire Jewish Nation in the world. He should be driven out of the country immediately. He is the worst leader our Jewish people have had since the re-birth of our Nation Israel.

You are right to say that Muslims hate Jews and non-Muslims (Christians and others). This is because their Quranic god teaches them so. However, you are wrong to say that Judeo-Christians, that is, Jews and Christians hate Muslims. This is because the Judeo-Christian Holy Bible contains GOD's Ten Commandments of "Thou shalt not..." written by GOD's own finger on tables of stones. Exodus 20:1-17. The Holy Bible also teaches that we should love our GOD with all our heart, mind and soul, and we should also love our fellowmen as ourselves. Hence, the commands of the Quran are an Antithesis to Judeo-Christian GOD's Ten Commandments and GOD's teachings in the Holy Bible. It is between darkness and light. As Mark Gabriel, PhD, tells in his book, "Culture Clash," the Muslims are victims too in the world of darkness of Islamist-Jihadism. The world would be better off if they know the Light of the World and the Prince of Peace.

Was a nation resurrected after more than 2,000 years only to be given away in 60? "Have I no power to deliver?" (Isa 50.2) "The children will say again in your ears, the place is too small for me" (Isa 49.20) "I will lift My hand to the nations, they shall bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters on their shoulders" (Isa 49.22)

Olmert is a coward, and a Immoral person. If the rest of Israel is as moraly corrupt as he is.They should negotiate with Iran for a good deal to surrender.

The other thing that attracted non-Palestinian Arabs to Jewish Palestine was the human rights they could enjoy there under the Jewish govt which were (and still are) far greater than they had in other Arab states or now have in the PA and, I feel sure, than they would have in a Palestinian state. That's why, of course, Israeli Arabs, including those in East Jerusalem, are dead scared of ending up, in the context of a peace agreement, under Palestinian rule. You see, Rick, there is so much you can learn when you take the blinkers off.

Your jaundiced view of history and your one-sided view of justice beggar belief and are cannot be comprehensively responded to in this forum. Suffice for now to make the following points: 1) The State of Israel was declared in May 1948 in accordance with a resolution of the UN (interestingly enough the USSR was one of the "yes" votes) in November 1947. 2) The day after the state was declared 6 Arab armies invaded with the view of "pushing the Jews into the sea". 3) The 1948 war was a result of the Arab states' not accepting the UN resolution. 4) A few short years before 1947 there was, in fact, a Jewish majority in what became Israel. During the 40s and right up to the UN resolution there was a large-scale Arab immigration (Yasser Arafat's family included) who were attracted to Palestine by the economic miracle the Jews had wrought (and which the Palestinians could have had also had they concentrated on building their own state rather than destroying the Jewish one).

Two states, we already have three states. A Hamas terrorist state in Gaza and a PLO Fatah terrorist state in Judea and Samaria, and Israel itself which contains a significant growing Arab minority that is aligned with the two Arab terorist states. Israel is one of the few countries in the world which espouses policies that will lead to its own destruction.

And Shabat Shalom to you. S

Here is my proposal: 1. A Palestinian State with a King is to be called Jordan. 2. A Palestinian State with a President is to be called Abbastan. 3. A Palestinian State with authoritarian Islamo-Fascists is to be called Gazastan. 4. A State formerly known as Lebanon to be called a State of Confusion. 5. The Jewish state to be called Israel. All to be funded with generous spending money in perpetuity by the world community.

Kath.I wish you are right but you are not. Israel is terrible in diplomacy specially if the Left on the helm.The left have a fixation on diplomacy to the point of madness.They never want to learn from life because they think that life in for the common man.Do and stop talking is needed by Israel.The building of settlements created facts on the ground.Costly,but it is the future.Facts on the ground are signs of danger to the enemies. It is amazing how many facts on the ground the Israeli Left have created for the Palestinians? And isn't that the danger now ? The Palestinians Authority,Oslo,Camp David,so many meetings & dialouges all over the world from Madrid to Camp David all with the kinds of Arafat a common lier. My main concern;a Gov.that speaks the Truth without fear and reflect the true aspirations of the Jews.The world is not a kind place.Jews are hated.Don't hide that under the carpet. A Jewish State without faith will ends up a Home Diaspora & worse.

Who on earth needs a leader like Olmert.He is the most uninspiring person to have led Israel ever.This loser who appears to be involved with financial cronyism and worse announces that Israel might be finished unless his brand of negotiation tactics are followed.Israel needs lections now to get rid of the gang of losers who have kidnapped the reigns of power.They should be cast out : elections now !!.

From what I read I thought that Dorothy had come from Kansas. She appears to think that Tosefta is Oz while he's just another slick side-show.

hey guys the countdown of ur dream country has begun last year when u lost the war aginst us i bet u knw who we r we are the men of god so prepare urself for the next round and say bye bye to the worlddddd bye the way we didnt hear anything abt our soldiers who fought against you last war cz we are mennn but i am still reading reports abt ur pussy soldierss haha who scream and see hizbollah in their dreams :):):)

Olmert is smarter than I thought. He knows that Palestinians will never live up to their agreements so any agreement made will be null and void. Olmert knows that Israel could never allow a so called Palestinian state, a Fatahstan if you will next to Israel exist. First, Israel must crush Hamastan with all of Israel's might. I sugest 500 Merkavas 40,000 soldiers, the elite reservist and call them for one month. Than Israel must employ humane methods to route Hamas. The civilians must clear out when this occurs. To prevent casualties to innocents and Israeli soldiers ,D9 catpillers must be utilized to clear out Hamas terrorist and Hamas snipers. Naturally, Israeli Air support will play a role supporting armor and infantry assaults. One month is needed to do this properly and the Hamas must surrender every last pistol and fugitive or the operation will continue till every crevice in Gaza is searched for illegal weapons, suicide belts, Kassams and terrorist. Good luck Israel! God bless!

The desparate, and the ones who are not risk takers. To some, or perhaps to many, the freedom of choosing is quite terrfying. Humans are by nature conservative. Suffice it to say that democracy has never been imposed by wars or revolutions. Democracy tends to be evoluttionary in nature. Shabat Shalom, Cipora

So we're playing a game of hypotheticals, knowing that it would never come about. In that ideal world the Arab Palestinians would commit themselves to living peacefully in Israel as citizens, with all the privileges and obligations citizenship entails. They would then have the choice of taking up this citizenship which is already enjoyed by nearly a million Arab Israelis who live far better than and are treated much better than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East, or selling up and moving to Jordan/Palestine and becoming citizens there. Which do you think they'd prefer (hypothetically, of course)?

You made comment about the hate you see on the forum from Israelis. If someone came along wanting half your home and your neighbors were pushing you into agreeing to it, or pushing you out of your home completely, you'd be pissed off too. Look at all of the land the surrounding Arab nations have. They can't even offer a piece of that to their fellow muslem brothers in Palestine? You think Israeli's have hate? The whole muslem/Islam agenda regarding Israel is based on hate. How many Islamic terrorist groups are there that are bent on Israels's destruction? Do you see Israeli terrorist groups running rampant all over? Israeli suicide bombers? No! The Islamic fundamentalists are brain washing their children with hate propoganda towards Israel! Iran's president publicly declares Israel's destruction! Yaser Arafat encouraged terrorism all the time. Fatah was his terrorist creation. Now you know who the real haters are. I'm not even Israeli and I can see that!

It probably would have been fairer (and wiser) to read a less one-sided publication than Ha'aretz before reaching conclusions. One should always listen to the other side of an argument put in a rational, researched manner.

""Think Logically...Israel left Gaza unilaterally, left it besieged, flew sonic boom sorties every night...and somehow they expected Gaza to be peaceful?"" Think logically...Israel left Gaza unilaterally, pulled out all its soldiers and all its settlers behind the 1948-67 lines according to the UN resolutions and the demands of the Arab States.The very next day Gaza militants started launching missiles at Israel on a daily basis,digging tunnels under the '67 lines in order to enter Israel and kidnap its soldiers,one of which is still in their hands... Can Israelis trust the Palestinians that if they pull out from the West Bank and E.Jerusalem behind the 67 lines they won't be attacked on a dayly basis,their 18 years old conscript soldiers kidnapped etc?This time 15-20 km from the center of Tel Aviv where 60% of Israel population lives? Think logically Ibrahim. Shalom/Salaam

Bosnians are Europeans, they are whiter in complexion, just as most Jews are who originated in Europe. Palestinians at least the majority of them have the olive complexion. Olmert doesn't, Livni doesn't, Shamir never did, Begin didn't, Ben Gurion didn't. Oh wait, those are the so called founders of Israel :), a state built on Palestinian Arab lands.

" What people want is security, economic and political, but not necessarily democracy." (C) Yeah. Ignorants or stupid people, extremists, and opportunists. Maybe you'll find some additional categories. These groups are not distributed equally among nations. Some countries got more of them. That's where your "not necessarily" applies.

The worldly means to negotiate solution for the Middle East will fail to act with justice. The energy of the whole world drained to this area for genuine solution will prove insincere political input in religion infested environment and ends with disaster. The Jews themselves are blind and grope in darkness in the land. The Muslims are open unbelievers who claim property that is not theirs glorying in sheer numbers without faith and wisdom, setting up their own standards by manipulating and distorting the Biblical facts in their favor. The time of travail for the whole world seems to be in sight. Time must end for deceit to make gains by cosmetic civilization. The murderers of the King of the Jews (the Religious and Political Organizations that act without regard for the Commandments) are now to prove they have succeeded to eliminate the defenseless believers who supplement the voice of their consciences... Thus having overcome their own conscience first and the external witnesses of the believers secondly they might think of having secured greatest achievement in history ?. How long would it last if this is successfully achieved? Thus the Prince of peace and his household receive the full treatment from their worldly host, for when the words have exhausted, actions speak. Then comes the time for the world rulers to give accounts for their deeds and take recompense from the Master. None shall be called to repentance to receive grace at that time but sure judgment and fire awaits the world?s victors! Hapless journey?s end.

more of your calling the kettle black blisteric? with apologies ! the day doris cadigan makes sense the sun will go araound the earth!

You are a real idiot. Why don't you move to another planet?

Olmert took a big risk in saying that. He said things that are taboo in Israel. The arabs always spoke about destruction of Israel and tried to kill israeli jews during 60 years. And now, the prime minister of Israel speak of the destruction of Israel. He will risk anger from large parts of israeli people and may have to leave power. Then Netanyahu will be back soon.

The israelis have no choice. I know they are dragging there feet to give the palestinians indian reserves, that if they can hold out only another 50 yrs that instead of returning 7 percent of palestine back to the righful owners, they can return 2-3 %. Jews do not be greedy, this peace benifits you the most. You know you stole the land, and the world is about to legitimize you officially. Take the deal and run, dont be greedy or your going to lose it all. One day, the pals will quit negotiating and say that they want equal rights and want to be israelis. One day, and soon, they will all speak your language. You will have no choice. Especially in the face of a Ghandi type rebellion.

The worldly means to negotiate solution for the Middle East will fail to act with justice. The energy of the whole world drained to this area for genuine solution will prove insincere political input in religion infested environment and ends with disaster. The Jews themselves are blind and grope in darkness in the land. The Muslims are unbelievers who claim property that is not theirs glorying in sheer numbers without faith and wisdom. The time of travail for the whole world seems to be in sight. The murderers of the King of the Jews (the Religious and Political Organizations that act without regard for the Commandments) are now to prove they have succeeded to enslave the defenseless believers ... Very soon the believers will be butchered in mass to silence the voice of protest against the noble deeds performed by the world leaders for peace ?. Thus the Prince of peace and his household receive the full treatment from their worldly host, for when the words have exhausted, actions speak. Then comes the time for the world rulers to give accounts for their deeds and take recompense from the master. None shall be called to repentance to receive grace at that time but sure judgment and fire for world?s victors!

Toesefta, one can feel it in each single sentence of his posts to us, he would so desperately love to have us on his side. It is almost tearing him apart.... Long way to go, peterchen, long way to go....:)

Where have you been? Hope all is well and I am glad to see you back.Regards

who might this stronger and capable entiy be? extremism is NOT strength. so if you refer to hamas; you're sucking up to the wrong bunch. strength comes from internal fortitude. arafat had it, and so does abbas. abbas may not enjoy the same popularity as arafat, for various reasons including arafat's charisma. but what you and so many in this blog fail to understand is that olmert's reference is NOT towards abbas' personal strength; but rather to his ability to unify the palestinians under his leadership... which is impossible as long as the palestinians of gaza are held imprisoned in the virtual captivity of the hamas leadership without any freedom to choose otherwise. they are the prisoners of hamas. and please spare me the "elected government" line of crap, because the circumstances that existed then no longer exist, and even when they did...hamas did not win with a "popular vote"...they won much like "bush" did this last time around.

Why can't Israel be a homeland for Jews and also a country where jews are a minority? Just enact a constitution that allows for both jews and arabs to live there in peace - like New York City, and set it up so these laws can't be easily changed.

I came to pretty much the same conclusions when I began reading Harretz about 3 years ago. Seems like the peace train for two states is moving forward, but I would really like to see a one-state solution with democracy for all. Let the haters move to New York, Moscow, or Mecca.

just to reduce your arrogance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_inaugurations this will explain that new president of USA will take place of Bush on January 20th of 2009

How about minorities slaughtered by Muslim states? Is that peace loving because its called religion of peace?

and a few other little matters, like changing the name of the State to `Palestine`, changing the flag and the National Anthem, etc... It does not require Olmert`s cowardness & the rest of his attributes. It seems to me I remember some overtures to that effect from Israeli Arabs not long ago. Some little attempts to test the waters. They were quickly shut down, but the seed was planted. The division (ar authonomy) of Israel within is an ace up the Arab sleve that had not been fully played yet. It is waiting to be played but exectly how it will be planned to be played will depend on the situation of the two states & core issues resolution. Only if the `two states` situation will not be resolved in the relatively near future, or the negativity will increase, this card will be `played` as is in the intifada like style. Obviously is where the right of return greatly helps such scenario, after which it is goodby Israel as the Jewish state-two sates or twenty states makes no difference.

I hope you are doing well. I despise the Palestinian behavior, lobbing primitive rockets at Israel. Israel should respond...but not with wanton violence and mayhem. Not with callous blockades and declarations that noone will starve in Gaza. Gaza is a powder keg of misery and frustration...Israel left Gaza in a such a way that nothing but chaos could possibly result. To you it sounds like I am blaming everything on Israel...but that is just your knee jerk need to defend everying Israel. Think Logically...Israel left Gaza unilaterally, left it besieged, flew sonic boom sorties every night...and somehow they expected Gaza to be peaceful?

is now a Palestinian refugee able to freeload off the UN. special deal for Arabs only Arabs born in Arab countries for generations are also 'Palestinian refugees". No citizenship from their Arab brothers for Pals born there either. You would scream apartheid if others did that to Arabs

" include every Jew who has ever lived in or probably ever set foot in Israel" Care to give your sources for that piece of nonsense? Hundreds of thousands study for years in Israel they do not have citizenship.Where do you have the evidence to back up your assertions??

Does Alan Dershowitz approve? Has Olmert joined the antisemitic camp?

Israel violated the Oslo agreement from the moment it was signed. They agreed to not to "change facts on the ground." Build more settlements or expand settlements, but they never stopped. The first Intifada was all about Pals becoming aware that Israel was never going to abide by the Oslo agreements.. My oh my, I know these sites are not `world beaters` but neither should they be the circus arena either. Care to elaborate why Arafat did not sign one at Camp David & done with all the settlement expention right there & then. I will give you a clue, the same reason why Abbas was `dancing` around joint statement all the way to Annapolis, having his `doubts` half an hour before its reading. It is not the settlements that threaten the `moderated` Arab leader, it is always the same `damn if you do & damn if you dont` peace agreements with Israel. If it is not the total peace agreement the Arab way of course, but that is when those `damn Israeli peace breakers` always come in & interfere.

Hello Silvienne and Lakshmi, Please give me your feedback on my media listing on this conflict. I feel the the Not So nice facts about Israel is well doneand I love the soundtrack to it. Indeed, I am making a CD of it. (Be sure to turn up the sound track on your computer.) I love the Palestinian voice and music and of course I was very disturbed by the other videos but they are realistic and I found myself crying with the cruel and tragic circumstance the Israelis have thrown the Palestinian people into. It offends me morally and I will never accept it from. Indeed, I am so morally outraged. I feel I can't put it into words anymore. I just want to kick them out of Palestinian lives. They have pushed their stay and their cruelty towards the Palestinian people beyond human limits and I can't take it anymore. Dutch P.S. My media piece and your feedback is appreciated: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_25526.shtml

Let's imagine the nightmare of the one-State solution comes true: frontiers of Israel are opened, and the State is flooded not only with a massive Palestinian refeugees influx, but also with neighbouring Arabs migrating and looking for better jobs in the advanced Israeli economy (just like they do in Europe). A new Knesset is elected, obviously in the democratic 'one man - one vote' way: the result is a Parliament with an Arab majority. The next day, the newly elected legislators vote on two issues: abrogation of the 'law of return' for Jews, and a few other little matters, like changing the name of the State to 'Palestine', changing the flag and the National Anthem, etc. End of Israel, end of Zionism, and the Jewish People again the only one without a homeland. Let Israel divorce the Palestinians, let them build their own Nation outside Israel and welcome their brothers in it. I support Olmert & Abbas.

Start protesting please, my Israeli brothers and sisters. You deserve better than an idiot who de facto adopts Ahmadinejad's discourse, threatens his own citizenry and lacks both reason and accountability, wisdom and serenity.

You're right, your eyesight is faulty - you forgot all about the Oslo agreements where Israe agreed not "to change facts on the ground." Which mean building no more settlements. Settlements continued from the moment Israel signed the agreement. Palestinians started the first Intifadah because they saw Israel taking over the west bank. I'm sorry you didn't see that part. I't important to guard against selective perception.

What you aren't aware of, I guess, about Oslo is that Israel violated the Oslo agreement from the moment it was signed. They agreed to not to "change facts on the ground." Build more settlements or expand settlements, but they never stopped. The first Intifada was all about palestinians becoming aware that Israel was never going to abide by the Oslo agreements.

Silvienne, The preconditions are as they stand and yes israel would be in default if it weren't for the goodwill of the UN and the US and EU. But people are tired of carrying Israel and if it doesn't get with it and make itself legal --it will lose it's place in the Middle East. My children won't have anything to do with Israel and it isn't anything I have said but Israel's call to violence and the desire to dominate the Palestinians and illegally occupy their land, and baby boomers like myself want military aid to Israel cut and indeed the rest of the world as it doesn't reflect democratic values, plus the older people who once supported it like my parents have gone to their grave (RIP) and others are checking into assisted living arrangements..... In addition, the new wave of American immigrants don't know where Israel is -let alone care and they are focused on sending the wealth and technology to their countries. So in more ways than one Israel is in big trouble Dutch

Hello Ballistic , Thank you for pointing out mindlessness of Victor Hardman's post whether it is by Paul Harris or Richard of London (that's the other name he uses.) Can you believe this man has a law degree or should I call it an outlaw degree as he can't stand laws that stand in his way of greater Israel. Especially, the British Mandate promise to the Zionists on how far their borders would extend. It's like the portrait of Doreen Gray, it never changes. Except he is no Doreen Gray and life and laws have changed. Dutch

Churhillian leadership, that is what I like.. Is it a plane ? No. is it a bird? No. It's super Ehud. I think that from this moment on political leadership has sunk to a new low. A comment such as this betrays the make up of this man. His bags are packed and ticket to the US booked. All he has to do is arrange the fees for his university lecture circuit.

Hello Jeff, I heard on the radio people who don't change their opinions didn't show brain growth in an US study whereas those who were more opened to different opinions or who changed their opinions show brain growth. Did it ever occur to you that parrotoing the Israeli line maybe bad for your health and perhaps theirs too? I imagine it's already a public health problem in Israel whether people recognize it oe not with so many saying "I told you so" and "it's just like the Palestinians to miss an opportunity. " Can you imagine the kind of mass robotic thinking that implies? Dutch

Stephen I am not a sycophantic,but a realist. I am neither the sort of person who needlesly has become obseqious,never have and never will.When I praise Klaudia it is purely when I read the truth and nothing else. Perhaps you follow other sycophant but I do not follow blindly and only see sense where it is clearly the truth.If you want to use ad-hominems it is okay I do not mind in the slightest.By the way,I also praise Tzfonit,who has different perspectives that do not correspond quite as Klaudia's So what! You follow your way,and I will do my best in the interest of MY PEOPLE AND ISRAEL...OUTSIDERS LIKE YOURSELF HAVE NO SAY IN THE MATTER AND NO PERSONAL EXPECTATIONS AS OURS.

Howdy Lakshmi; "...,what`s the difference between `precondition` and `israel`s demonstrating its peaceloving intentions`!" One of the conditions for admission to the UN is to be a "peace-loving state". However, the evidence presented by the applicant state to satistify that condition can be anything and that particular evidence cannot itself be used as a condition according to an ICJ ruling. In other words, the evidence could have been replaced by something else entirely that would have served equally well to have convinced the General Assembly that the conditions contained in Article 4 of the UN Charter had been met by the applicant state. If something happens to the original evidence later, it cannot in-and-of-itself be used to nullify the state's admission. One would have to follow the rules for suspensions or expulsions of a state from the UN instead.

Johnny The State of Israel is finished." NO I DON'T THINK SO! Undoubtedly, that is what Ehud Olmert told to his sons, and both of them abandoned the land of Israel.(Johnny W) If you think so,by the fact of Olmert's who told his sons,and both of them abandoned the land.Then perhaps he is preparing a place in the U.S to join them in advance. And if that is the case,good riddance,and the sooner the better,for all our ISRAEL. With his latest words he has become a TRAITOR PAR EXCELLANCE. Let the elections begin as soon as possible and then we may get a more patriotic Israeli leader who will not sell our country down the drain...

Not all Muslims are bad by a long run. But if the handful of Arab rulers, cleric nutcases leading the prayers & educational system when the mind begins to really form, are the difference makers, it does not help much. Have you followed Arab leaders into what they say, when they say things, to whom, & most importantly what they do as opposite to what they say? They are the ones who set this anti-Israeli machine in motion & maintain it; they will have to answer for its `ineffectiveness` if Israel not only survives but is `untouchable to the Arab sword. The average Muslim crowd (correct, in all of its overwhelming majority) has almost as much impact today on the peace as you & I. I am not even touching off on radical Islam impact by itself. You are saying the peace is very possible. Maybe, but it is also as close to impossible as one Hamas sucessful rocket attack. Why shoud ISRAEL play the daily odds during or inside the peace process? Because the world is desparate for some kind of peace

Michael While all you said about Bush and the photo looking more like a clown as it seems to you,fear not.He is just trying to manipulate and try in his last breath by just proposing his agenda and get some sort of glory in doing this latest.His time is nearly up Michael and many of us know the end result is not going to achieve his wishful thinking... I am confident that Israelis in toto, will never fall for this delusional declaration...

So it's God's land, you say. And you say He will not destroy Israel. I'm sure He will not destroy his land -- he just won't let it remain a Jewish state, which is against everything God stands for. The land was there long before the Jews or the Palestinians arrived, and it will be there long after some or all of them are gone. For sheer arrogance nobody rivals the zionists.

Why it is either peace lovers or war lovers; either majority of radical Islamists or majority of moderates, all Muslims hate Jews or have no bad feeling towards them. Is there something in the middle? How many of your so called moderates who do not actively participate in terror, nevertheless agree with terror`s doctrine & silently pray for the same. How many of so called moderates are not here not there: do not agree with or support terror but simply wish for Israel to disappear & never want to see Israel & Palestine side by side. (meaning if the push comes to shove & there are no means to peacefully undermine & get read of Israel, terror stays. You have said many Muslims are not part of radical Islam, that is very true. They do not plan the killings, they do not kill themselves, they are not wishing every moment for the Jew to be killed. But they do not & will never impede the ones that do, because such traitory is much worse Islamic `crime`.

IN A TRUE LIGHT NEXT TIME AROUND,BROD. SHE DOES TEND TO CHANG HER VIEWS AND HOPEFULY WILL DO SO AGAIN...KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK AND DON'T GIVE IN. I DO LIKE JANE,BUT AT TIMES SHE I DESPAIR WHEN SHE TRIES TO GIVE CREDIT TO THOSE ISLAMIST SHE HOPES WILL CHANGE AND BECOME REAL MODERATES GIVEN THE CHANCE. I FEEL IT WILL TAKE NOT ONLY DECADES,BUT CENTURIES BEFORE WE CAN EXPECT SUCH WONDROUS MANIFESTATION... SORRY FOR THE CAPS.TOO TIRED. BEST REGARDS AND SHALOM

Your figures re Israel's Jewish population sound impressive until one realizes they include every Jew who has ever lived in or probably ever set foot in Israel. The Israelis living in Los Angeles for the most part seem to have no interest in going back to their promised land, but apparently Israel still counts them.

Klaudia, I am very impressed with your vociferous following of passionate sycophants. You should have your own radio show or something. Oddly the same people that deny the existence of "moderate Arab/Muslims" are the ones calling you "realistic." Of course the female Arabs/Muslims widely published (in the west only) fighting for their Quranic equality they wouldn't qualify for existence, apparently. Realism is obviously in eye of the beholder. Peace. Steve

As long as there are no mad bombers on the loose, and no rockets flying in the air; why not? Ten years? Maybe. But there must be consistent work towards the goal that whole time - not just by the Israelis, but by the Palestinians/Israeli Arabs, and everyone else who lives there, as well.

Nothing contradictory about it. Palestine IS illegally occupied by Israel. Israel's crimes in the West Bank (and still in Gaza) are worse then apartheid. The word has 8 letters, begins with a g and ends with an e. The apartheid practiced by Israel is IN Israel, where Jews are the chosen ones, and non-Jews don't have equal rights.

Akram Yes I admit what I said above,and will stand by it.I could have mentioned others who are equally concerned and want the best for Israel without any compromise and will must take it a step at a time and not rush headlong into the an abyss. I commend my post to Klaudia very much,also to Cipora and others,too numerous to mention now. Till tomorrow I wish you,and all my people SHABAT SHALOM

"How can I deny that the Zionists came and started war?" Maybe because they didn't? They didn't riot and kill Muslims in 1920 over a false rumor. They didn't commit the Hebron masscre in 1929. They didn't riot at the Peel commission release in 1936/7. They didn't reject partition and didn't invade 5 Arab countries in 1948. The fact that so many Arabs reacted discriminatorily to the mere presence of Jewish neighbors, even ones who had bought land fair and square; and that the Israelis defended themselves successfully; means to me that the Arabs and not the Zionists started the warring over there. And of course I'm mentioning the Arab Israelis. They're real people too. The non-Israeli Palestinians are not Israelis because they didn't WANT to be Israelis. Again, on them.

Howdy Lakshmi; Article 18 1. Each member of the General Assembly shall have one vote. 2. Decisions of the General Assembly on important questions shall be made by a two-thirds majority of the members present and voting. These questions shall include: recommendations with respect to the maintenance of international peace and security, the election of the non-permanent members of the Security Council, the election of the members of the Economic and Social Council, the election of members of the Trusteeship Council in accordance with paragraph 1 (c) of Article 86, the admission of new Members to the United Nations, the suspension of the rights and privileges of membership, the expulsion of Members, questions relating to the operation of the trusteeship system, and budgetary questions. 3. Decisions on other questions, including the determination of additional categories of questions to be decided by a two-thirds majority, shall be made by a majority of the members present and vot

Look first at your islamic hump before accusing the State of the Jews by the very same Islamic hump you're guilty of and that you pride yourself with , Quote " sabatoging grabbing and separating , arab ...economically strangling , stealing the resources such as water , soil and folklore.' You propose " A secular constitution with equal rights and responsibilities." Islam is against unrestricted democracy but wich proposal you rather exploit to erase Jewish Identity . Quote " palestinians ..natural viagra ...is their weapon of mass destruction ...' No , the arabs Islamic hump is exploited as the WMD wich arabs must get rid off , Arabs may not like that but they have no choice , in fact arabs with their Islamic hump are powerless in the face of Iran nuke threat and shia expansion. Arabs say there is but one G'D while arabs` Islamic hump disrespect the basic mankind morality proned by the Seven Noahides Laws , Therefore the Jihad that Islam preaches is to first restraint from evil , and not to twist the Islamic jihad word in waging armed Jihad against others whether muslims or non muslims ,

Joseph, Perhaps, then, there is a compromise position that will both protect the Jewish state and still grant Israeli citizenship to the Palestinian Arabs. Why are the extremists on both side allowed to completely obscure and undermine any efforts in that direction. I see a possible accomodation. Some common ground. Peace. Steve

Howdy Lakshmi; Article 5 A Member of the United Nations against which preventive or enforcement action has been taken by the Security Council may be suspended from the exercise of the rights and privileges of membership by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council. The exercise of these rights and privileges may be restored by the Security Council. Article 6 A Member of the United Nations which has persistently violated the Principles contained in the present Charter may be expelled from the Organization by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.

. do you think Israel will ever pay the palestinian back for what they diid and still doing to them. took their lands and kills them left and right. as for suicide bomber, these are result from occupation ..... so terror is the result of occupation. ? so why did the arabs attempt to make the birth of the jewish state still born one. there was no occupation then. are they ever going to give compensation for all the terror attack before '67 like the germans did. are they ever going to apologise for sending the great palestinian leader haj amin to visit the gs chambers to mke sure they were working effectively. I think not as the palestinins believe those were the right decisions. duncan

Dorothy You live in the US and have no idea what you are talking about.Referendums are fine,but,the people who should/would decide are not outsiders like you,and Tosefta,but the true Israeli citizens who have to live here. Please think carefully what you wish for from far away in MA/U.S.A Thank you

But, sovereign rights do not give a state the right to categorically deny the full range of political rights to the population of those territories, ... what political rights are denied the palestinians. If anything Israel is too liberal with its rights. It permits parties to stand in elections that state in their manifesto thaat Israel must be wiped off the map. nor to engage in collective punishment, .... what do you call horishima ?the internment of japanese in ww2 ? war in iraq with up to half a million civilins dead nor to exploit the commonwealth property within those areas unilaterally. .... which law is that ?

Jane The only way this will happen is if we find and support those Muslims who do not support the radical factions and work with them in every way possible to create enlightenment and civil societies. They will do the heavy lifting with tools provided by us. The Palestinian issue is a tiny part of that but once settled it will have huge impact in the Muslim world. It will take some time, years, but it will be worth it and do more to protect Israel than any war ever could. It will be a long term commitment and as I said above on many fronts.(Jane) Then Jane please enumerate the moderate Muslims who may have the courage ascribe to them,and why they are still reluctant to come forward and let their voice be heard? Can you please clarify this small problem to us? The answer to that is,you cannot? Note that Cipora has not addressed you,in reply which to me speak volumes..Unless she has and not come out owing to Haaretz? busy dealing not only in this forum,but also with the ?Hebrew respondents?version by the people in Israel? And sorry the Palestinian issue is not a tiny part of that you think it will solve the rest of the Muslim problem.You err by puttint the onus on this aspect alone?.

"Israel is already finished in a way. It`s UN memebership is in default as it has failed to produce two items of its existence (see below) and it is riding on the goodwillwill of others" Two Preconditions of Israel`s existence : (1) a sovereign Palestinian state and (2) the rerurn of refugees" If this is true, Dutch, Israel is indeed in great danger, from within, rather than from anything the Arabs can do. Civil strife over the two UN conditions and Israel's refusal to compromise over the creation of the Palestinian state may well lead to the demise of Israel. Regards

Israel is not important enough to the Americans to be transformed into a watershed focus on future foreign policy. Thus, Olmert is right that pressures on Israel to give the Arabs of the territories the vote should two states not be established will emanate from many American quarters and not be at all easy to refute. American Jewry is not a disciplined Zionist community which can adhere to a line, and many American Jews will not understand the nuances. The American mood has swung against foreign entanglements and it is a mood well rooted in the American experience; neo-cons feel increasingly isolated. The Israel which will take on its adversaries in this scenario will not only have few if any allies in the world, but will be an Israel deeply divided. Is that really a preferable option to Olmert's proposed middle road? Are we headed for another Bar Kochba debacle? Let's not blow it this time.

Why should Hamas be able to take control of the WB? Because they're ruthless and well funded. If the IDF weren't there they'd already own it. But let's not quibble about that. Looking at your logic: How long does it take to get an economy to "blossom"? Surely years. And then for the public to be affected by it at the grassroots level, some more years. With the rest of the Arab world, or at least Hamas, Iran, Egypt and Syria/Hizballah still inciting against whatever would remain of Israel, it would take even longer. Requiring the process to proceed in an orderly, rational fashion meant to insure long-term success isn't trying to "get away" with it. On the contrary, it's the only way to build real peaceful coexistence. And, the faster the PA gets humanistic, the faster the process will go.

Howdy Abu; The two-state is dead? Well, so is the one-state solution. Long live the three-state solution! My plan is going to win the tontine! Namely: 1) Israel including the seamline area and most of East Jerusalem, 2) the Islamic Republic of Palestine (Fatahland) consisting of 92% of the West Bank lying to the east of the security barrier plus a small enclave of predominately Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, and 3) The Islamic Caliphate of Gaza (Hamastan) consisting of 100% of the Gaza Strip as defined by the 1950 armistice line. "I know the Israelis do not like this because the palestinians have natural viagra and this is their weapon of mass destruction and the Israelis are at a disadvantage." Only if Israel is foolish enough to go for your one-state solution idea. Otherwise, the Palestinians can breed themselves into perpetual and abject poverty on their side of the fence as either stateless persons or as citizens of either 2) or 3) above.

otherwise it might die with thirst one day. ..................... I am not worried about the Jewish state dying of thirst, Jews have a long history of surviving over the odds in a hostile environment. (that includes Europe and switzerland who killed more than they saved) Jews were a people long before the Swiss and will remain as such long after Switzerlnd has disapeared. http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-concerningjews.htm The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, ........... The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Haaretz please put this out.Ms Klaudia deserves the ACCOLADE.AND DON'T BE OBSTREPEROUS

Jane, I can see where you are coming from. You seem to think that peace can be achieved even though you well know the Islamist-Jihadists want to usurp Israel's biblical and historic homeland of Judea and Samaria including Israel's eternal and indivisible capital-city of Jerusalem as a first step in the Jihadism against Israel. Thereafter, at a later date, they would want to swallow the whole of Israel as their Manifesto clearly spells out. What does Israel get from all these? Nothing. The Islamist-Jihadists want everything from the Jews including their pants. In clear conscience, how would you like to see this kind of peace? You are right to say Muslims hate Jews and Christians (non-Muslims). This is because their Quran teaches them that the infidels are "impure, inferior, untrustworthy, trying to destroy Islam and enemies of Muslims" (p.50,"Culture Clash Islam's War on the West" [2007] by Mark A. Gabriel, PhD,). Hence, Jihadism will sabotage any meaningful peace you envisage.

Tell thing in truth for the naysayer that should take note and believe in what she tries to explain explicitly. There others here who have befuddled minds to expect there are moderate Arab/Muslims which is a delusion,and it is like trying to walk through a thick fog in desperation and perhaps land in THE MIRE! I will have to leave once again.Too late and you can take over my cudgels until tomorrow if this forum still appears...

Don`t worry, things are going into the "right" direction. ..... feel free not to respond as I will feel free to disagree with anything you say. I am glad you feel things are going in the right direction. Some good news at last from a troubled area. Just be sure to let the hamas and fatah 'resistance' groups know about it though please. duncan

I've never seen a photo of Bush looking more like a clown than this one. Not one of these fools knows G-d. Abbas prays to allah. Bush says G-d and allah are the same, so he prays to the moon god also, not my G-d. Olmert? He must pray to whomever Bush tells him to. The Palestinians deserve no country. If they do, let them go to Jordan. Bush and Olmert are both in the process of destroying their respective countries. May the Lord bring down on their heads what they deserve. We both, Americans and Israeli's are headed for trouble. G-d will not destroy Israel. It is His land. America cannot say that, so here in America, we can expect the Lord to lift His protection and leave us to what we deserve. Both countries are going to experience disaster. This is a Spritual battle being instigated by fools who must think they are more than men!

Arabs always say , Or the former palestine region under arab territorial control or the jews disappear to the sea , The Olmert threat is the same as the arab threat wich first purpose is to cause fear and terror , Olmert choose to surrender to the arabs blackmails and extortions , Instead of pointing to the State of the Jews existential threat by the surrounding hatred , death and destruction , fear and terror promoted by the arab-muslim-world , Olmert divert the subject and rather point to the State of the Jews Democracy , Olmert portray such threat as a moral dilema , When the State of the Jews Democracy is purposedly , designedly manipulated to "Unrestriction" so as to swindle the Jews off their State of the Jews thru such 'Urestricted democracy', In order to promote the gradual arab territorial control of the former palestine region , with the help of the Israeli-arabs representatives and lefties abusing such "Unrestricted" democracy , the Lefties prime interest is to erase any Jewish Identity in the State of the Jews , add the 'nicest' , 'moderate' Israeli-Arab ex-Mk Azmi Bishara accused of treason in time of War , and whom the arabised High Court allowed him to escape from the contry , the State of the Jews Democracy is relieved from any moral dilema because of the nature of such State of the Jews existential threat imposed by within and from the surrouding muslim arab world whom for its interests totally disrespect even the mankind basic morality based on the Seven Noahides Laws , Not everything is democratic in a democracy , this title has been hard earned by the State of the Jews geo-political and moral position .

Hi Warren- You are correct about one thing. The Zionist infiltration started after WWI, not in 1948 but as of 1947, the majority of inhabitants were non-Jewish. Of course, the Arabs resisted the Zionist invasion. There was no Israel to be invaded (unless you leaped to 1967) by 6 or any number of other countries. Can you really deny that the 1948 war was a direct result of Zionists gathering and trying to create a state? Fighting a thief is not invasion. Yes, the Arabs have refused to yield and give up what was theirs. Just as the Jews returned based on a millinia old claim! If the Israelis treated the Pals as human beings, there would have been no need for either intifada. Peace, Rick

Olmert should be investigated for stupidity and not the other stuff. Indeed, he should be removed from his office as fast as possible. What a donkey!

Mr. Zekaria, Absolutely!! Amen

'precondition' and 'israel's demonstrating its peaceloving intentions'! Re: wrong again about the GA's powers.it can by a simple majority susepend israel. Re: 181,Hamas has asked UN to rescind 181.

Particularly this quote ... "We have the capacity to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under." He is saying that Israel will commit suicide while killing as many other people as it can. Basically Israel will still cease to exist and the people around the world that will survive Israel's suicidal "fit" will hunt down and kill every Jew in retaliation for Israel's destruction. So in the end virtually all the Jews will be gone and a much smaller world population will go on with humanity. That does NOT sound like a great future for the Jewish people. Note that both of us are saying the same thing, nukes are for suicide.

Cipora, Tosefta goes into the detail but the bottom line is that things change, people change, especially when their deepest desires- normal life, prosperity- are a real possibility. This is why I ask about referendums. If the people are allowed to speak I believe they will go for the compromises, especially if they are even-handed. At some point you have to let go of the past and see beyond the present extremists on either side. No question there will be risks, but none that are unbearable and none that Israel cannot deal with. For goodness sake! It's late and you might not see this.

Arafat knew his trybe and this was one of his reason of not sighning Camp David agryment. Abas is in danger, has no pawer to deliver. So what is the big fass is about?

you should have added that nations have different backgrounds and different beliefs because of their own different histories.There is no uniformity in an ununiformed societies . Add to that there is nothing abolute. If Democracy or any social system claims to be absolute it must be ingoring social realities. And how you can expect any progress if you shut your eyes and close your ears.My ideal social order summed up 'Va a habta le-ra'acha kamoucha'. Wish to others what you wish to yourself'. Idealism to the extreme & a target we always miss.. Shabath Shalom.

"The State of Israel is finished." Undoubtedly, that is what Ehud Olmert told to his sons, and both of them abandoned the land of Israel.

Sandy, I understand your trepidation but you have no rational reason to equate Hamas and Palestinians. Abbas is doing everything in his power to defeat Hamas. His power base is completely dependant on aid from Israel and the USA. I seriously doubt that he would advocate the obliteration of Israel. You should in general try to avoid such broad race based generalizations. Someone might mistake them for evidence of bigotry. Peace. Steve

Israel has been sabatoging the two state solution since 1967.All this land grabbing and separating palestinian towns by highways skipping arab towns and economically stragling the population in addition to road blocks and stealing the palestinian natural resources such as water , soil and folklore. I think the only viable solution is the one democratic state solution.The USA is the best example.A secular constitution with equal rights and responsibilities. I know the Israelis do not like this because the palestinians have natural viagra and this is their weapon of mass destruction and the Israelis are at a disadvantage. Israel doe snot have many nice choices .They have to chose the least painful solution and fast. Peace

Shari Baby, "Well, it`s been obvious for decades that Israel must return the territories to the palestinians, the Lebanese and syrians." Nothing could be further from the truth. As a matter of fact, if Palestinian Arabs had all the privileges of citizenship that Jewish Israelis had, they would probably be the first ones refusing to return the Golan. That stuff is good farm land, sweetie. Why let the Syrians ruin it with their traditional political mismanagement. Peace. Steve

Warren, Assuming you had your wish and the world agreed on the borders you prefer (the Jewish nation of Israel in the small area to the west of the Jordan River and the Palestinian nation of Jordan in the vast area to the east.) What would you do with all the Arab and other non-Jews that currently live in the Yehuda and Shomrom regions. would they be absorbed into Israel or expelled into neighboring countries, those that don't want to leave voluntarily. Do you have a convenient and humane solution for that obstacle? I believe that ten years from now those will be the borders. Israel and Jordan. Israel will have to decide if it is feasible to allow that high a percentage of their population to be non-Jewish. Mass expulsions will definitely be disfavored by the vast majority of the world's inhabitants. Serbia didn't make any friend trying it. I am sure that the world never thought they would see the USA taking the side of Muslims until the Kosovo/Bosnia crisis. Peace. Steve

If the Arabs hadn't initiated the wars in 1948, 1967 and 1973 and the Palestinians the intifada of 1987 and terrorist war of 2000 there wouldn't have been ANY Palestinians killed (or Jews, for that matter). And Israel would have been able to help the Arab nations become the economic, cultural, social and humanitarian success that Israel became instead of their wallowing in self-induced poverty and hatred.

......and read your history without the bias. By 1948 Zionist Jews (who were then called Palestinians) had been living there for decades they didn't need to infiltrate. And if you call Israel's being invaded by 6 Arab armies "making war" then you have a very jaundiced view of history and of right and wrong. Ten percent of Israel's Jewish population died in that war defending their country! The Pals comemorate Israel's Independance Day as the Nakba (catastrophe) and they're right. But the catastrophe was not Israel's creation but a) the Arab states' refusal to accept the creation of Israel for 6 decades and b) the 700,000 refugees and their descendants being held as pawns by Arab and then Palestinains governments in refugee camps instead of being integrated into their host nations as the 850,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries were in Israel.

I did not make any reference to the Saudis. The rest of your post is just as misleading and manipulative.

There certainly are moderate Muslims all over the world. Resurgent radical Islam is indeed a large, vocal and violent movement but it is not the majority of Muslims. I am not offering a simple solution to a complicated problem but I do believe that we in the west including Israel can get to a place where terrorism is minimal and life will be able to go on without daily fear of attack or elimination. The only way this will happen is if we find and support those Muslims who do not support the radical factions and work with them in every way possible to create enlightenment and civil societies. They will do the heavy lifting with tools provided by us. The Palestinian issue is a tiny part of that but once settled it will have huge impact in the Muslim world. It will take some time, years, but it will be worth it and do more to protect Israel than any war ever could. It will be a long term commitment and as I said above on many fronts.

Blaksheep singing in the dead of night while the swiss donkey prepares for transfer out of far-away switzerland. whew, the swiss donkey trying to goose-step and bray at the same time, now that isn't a pretty picture you present to us. hehe what a surprise that you serve up a red-herring displaying your inability to respond as is your trademark. bray donkey bray upon your mystery ship be amazed at the friends you have here on your trip. The Arab Compromise- what is it, where is it!!! bray donkey bray upon your mystery ship.

Ideally, I would advocate the two state solution which now exists - the Jewish nation of Israel in the small area to the west of the Jordan River and the Palestinian nation of Jordan in the vast area to the east. But we don't live in an ideal world, so the next best option is a three state solution - Jordan, Israel and a second Palestinian state to the west of the Jordan. The problem is, you see, that events have proven that Israel is about the only country in the Middle East which actually wants a 2nd Palestinian state. The Palestinians could have had their state in 1948, 1967, (in between when Jordan and Egypt were occupiers there was never any mention of a Palestinian state), 1993 and 2000, but that was never and still isn't what they are striving for - all they and all the Arabs states really want is the destruction of Israel.

Dorothy, I don't know if you had the honor of meeting our resident Martian. She (sounds 'female' although it is difficult to say with birds) needs help in understanding Earthly affairs. Be kind to her and please help. Perhaps one day she could serve as a bridge between us and her species. In the meantime we need to invest effort in her education. I will go thru her post so that you can see the depth of misunderstanding and ignorance we have to contend with: 1. "how it is possible to make peace with people who will not even shake hands with an Israeli, or even a Jew" - Bird Of course the Saudis shake hand with Jews. Lots of Jews in Washington DC. They said they will not shake hands with Olmert who refused to accept their peace plan, so he is not rewarded for nothing. Indeed, Olmert was looking for such a hand-shake photo as a great success for him. The Saudis also said they WILL make peace with Israel once their plan is adopted. Very fair and reasonable position (for Earthlings). 2. "who insist on flooding Israel with so-called Arab refugees" Actually the Saudi Peace Plan is not insisting on the refugees returning. There ought to be a mutually agreed solution to the refugee problem. Compensation is satisfactory. Very fair and mild. 3. "who have been artificially kept in refugee camps for sixty years" Funny that the refugees were kept in camps by Egypt too, but peace with Egypt was signed. (This Bird doesn't know that Earthly knowledge is acquired by observing REALITY.) 4. "how one can make peace with people who want to reverse the decision of the UN of 1947 to acknowledge that the Jewish people had a legitimate right to self determination" I heard that Hamas is asking to reverse this. The Saudis are not wishing to reverse the UN decision. 5. "how one can make peace with people who to this day do not even present Israel on their maps that are taught in schools." Th Bird does not realize that Israeli school maps don't show the Green Line. Does it mean no Palestine or never peace with Syria? A Martian problem of interpreting Earthly reality. From now on you are on your own with respect to the Bird from Outerspace, Dorothy. You will need a lot of humor to carry you through with this important task.

Hi Yechiel- Of course the Palestinians hate Israelis. Even the most innocent among them on the WB suffers daily harassment, abuse and arbitrary limits on travel. Not to mention that Zinists took land that they and their forefathers lived on for centuries, based on a millenia-old claim. You're a little behind the times. Both Egypt and Jordan have recognized Israel. Now you're claiming "from Mecca to Sudan?" You're getting a little over-ambitious, aren't you? Israel is a tiny country with a small military recently humiliated by a far inferior enemy. The odds of Israel getting away with this, even without outside intevention, are miniscule. Please calm down and understand that we are all going to have to learn to compromise and co-exist. The bibilcal days when your people could just slaughter anyone who got in your way, such as the Canaanites, is over. Peace, Rick

From my experience in Israel and afterwards working professionally in a Middle East think tank, I have come to the conclusion that it benefits Israel to try once again to resolve the Arab Israeli conflict. I believe the War Against Radical Islam has created new imperatives and alliances as well as new dangers that must be considered. I also know for a fact that there are plenty of Muslims who believe the same and not all are Islamists. I do not accept that all Muslims hate Jews or other non Muslims just as I know not all Jews and Christians hate Muslims. There is a war going on and passions run high but we all need to take a deep breath and understand that negotiating is better than a never ending state of war and if the countries present at Annapolis work together the terrorists can be marginalized and ultimately defeated. The people who say all Muslims are bad and only war will save Israel are not thinking clearly. It is fear speaking, not rational thought.

and after a two state solution? Why are peole convinced that it will change ANYTHING. Whoever takes over after the assasination of Abbas will keep the land and concesions, repudiate any "peace" agreements and resume attacking Israel, although now from a soveriegn base right next door. Tothe "Palestinians' its neverbeen about "peace" but rather where the next war will start. Didn't we learn that Oslo was a "Trojan horse?"

Howdy Lakshmi; Israel's acceptances of UNGARs 181 and 194 were used as evidence of Israel's willingness to be a "peace-loving state", but they could not be used as preconditions for her admittance to the UN because the ICJ had ruled earlier that only the conditions specified in Chapter 4 of the UN Charter can be used to qualify (or disqualify) a candidate state for membership. Contrary to what you say, the procedure for suspending or expelling a member state from the UN in spelled in the UN Charter in no-uncertain terms. The Security Council must first pass a recommendation to the General Assembly by a vote of at least 9 out of 15 with no vetoes, and then, the General Assembly must pass the suspension or expulsion resolution by a two-thirds majority. Sorry, but there's no legal way to get around the Security Council on this one unless you intend to change the UN Charter first.

Like all anti-semetic bigots doris idea of the "final solution" is for the obliteration of Israel's existence by demographic means. It is of no matter to Doris that her Islamo-fascist Hamas stated just today "that thier is no place for Jew in Mid-East"(AP wire). Nor That 56 member nations of "Organization of Islamic Conference" keeps the UN funding spigot opened wide for the Palestinian causes while providing a loud megaphone for an anti-Isreali and anti-semetic resolutions Durbin. We hear from doris of the right of return of arabs but fail to hear from her about rights of Jewish refugee who were forced to flee Egypt, Iraq, Libya and other Arab countries in 1947-48. If will follow doris's opened ended defination of Palestinian refugees then the refugee Jews forced out Saudi peninula by Mohammed should be allowed to return of Mecca and Medina and arabs should be removed forthwith.

Hello Dino, I notice another round with Peter the Great Fantasizer. I thing Peterchen is really off as a diminutive. You refuse to acknowledge Peter as the Great Fantasizer who came to us straight from the Twilight Zone. Want examples? Peter will solve the Hamas problem by expelling all Palestinians. Brilliantly imaginary. Oh yes, "the victors are the ones who write history", so nobody will know. I don't think even Balaam's ass, the prototype of Peter's visionary types, was capable of more. And the Hizballah hostage problem? Just take 1000 Palestinian prisoners (not enough Lebanese available) and shoot them if the 2 IDF captives are not released. Repeat the process daily. Balaam's ass would have been mighty proud of her descendant.

Israel and the Jewish people in general will benefit tremendously from the fact that Israel (most probably) will not "get away with it" this time. Definitely on the long term. Absolutely no doubt about that.

Jane, it is a mistake to think that everyone wants democracy. Indeed, democracy is a fragile institution, and people will sacrifice it very easily. What people want is security, economic and political, but not necessarily democracy.

When Pals are medically treated in Israel by agreement with the PA, they are not treated the same. Recently a Pal girl died due to Israeli bigotry. Haaretz: Improper treatment including a machine that "is for the treatments the hospital gives Palestinians as part of the agreement with the PA." www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/924564.html. If she were Jewish, she would be alive. Generally, WB Pals go to their own Universities and Hospitals. Your objections seems to be based on race, unrelated to Pal sovereignty. I agree with you re SA. How is this relevant? Peace, Rick

When Pals are medically treated in Israel by agreement with the PA, they are not treated the same. Recently a Pal girl died due to Israeli bigotry. Haaretz: Improper treatment including a machine that "is for the treatments the hospital gives Palestinians as part of the agreement with the PA." www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/924564.html. If she were Jewish, she would be alive. Generally, WB Pals go to their own Universities and Hospitals. Your objections seems to be based on race, unrelated to Pal sovereignty. I agree with you re SA. How is this relevant?

Thanks for the lesson. :) I have to learn tons more.

Hi Polybios- Prior to 1948, the land now Israel was propulated primarily by non-Jews. The British Imperialists had no right to give that land to the Zionists. Is it hard to understand that the non-Jews in the region weren't wiling to give away 1/2 of what they had? Zionists accepted a plan to steal land, nothing more. It was not the Brits to give. How can you deny that the Zionists came and started war? That's as ridiculous as denying gravity. Did the Pals go to Europe? No, they stayed home and were attacked there. I truly cannot fathom how anyone can deny this. Your post ignores citizenship, confusing Pal Israelis and non-Israeli Pals. There are no non-citizen Pals in Israeli parliament, nor are there any non-Israeli Pals holding any post in the Israeli governemnt. WB Pals do not attend Israeli universities, can't eat in Israel, etc. Yet, they're taxed by Israel and their lives are regularly abused bu Israelis. Peace, Rick

Gabe, You should listen to yourself. "They will eventually become part of the Human race but we must give them time so that they can grow at their own pace" Similar sentiments were expressed by the whites about the Black Africans and early American settlers about the native inhabitants. That is a bizarre racial philosophy for this day and age. Jews in America have spent more than two centuries fighting against such bigotry. Why are you trying to undo all their good works? Peace. Steve

Well, it's been obvious for decades that Israel must return the territories to the palestinians, the Lebanese and syrians.

Duncan, instead of exchanging our little differences for the 199th time, I will offer you one more of our old Swiss sayings: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". Looks like the International community feels like it has to "pressure" the Israeli horse into drinking, otherwise it might die with thirst one day. And we really don't want to see that happening, do we, duncan....??? Don't worry, things are going into the "right" direction.

Yaakov, Technically, you are correct. However, in the same vote which you cite, the Eastern side of the Jordan River, which was to be called Palestine, was to be partitioned into a Jewish section and an Arab section. Hence the partition agreement of 1947. You can't pick and choose which part of the vote you would like to recognize. Peace. Steve

This is one post with which I agree. Thank you.

There is only those who love to live with dignity.The rest are all cowards who don't care to live like mice.Only hours like now separted the men from the boys.The stupids of false knowledge from the true believers in faith.You keep claiming knowledge and even made yourself a man of prophesies and all of them were miles away from the truth. How blind ? Didn't Jews survived millions of hours dimmer than now ? No nation accepted Jews as equal;so why the Palestinians?Ask that yourself MrLincoln No country gave a safe home for the Jews;so why the Arabs ?The Jewish home was not a dream of the dreamers but the wisdom of the wise.Not the Jews wanted but what the Jews brought to nothing else will do.And thank G-d they did it and thank G-d they will keep it. Once you said 'before you die you want Israel to have one day of peace'.Not for once you helped Israel to grant you your wish.Your pride in your knowedge prevented you from doing so.And that goes for the like of you.

I know this is too hot but I can not resist it !!!! So Ben, you see it the other way around with Cuba launching kassams on Florida? In that case we must intern all cubans in camps, collect taxes from them and cut off their power and water as we like. Lets not use F16s to bomb them yet... start with baby steps..... GENIUS

WOW. One visit to Washington and Olmert now speaks like Ahmadinejad. What is it with these people in Washington?

Howdy Dutch; You said: "P.S. Two Preconditions of Israel`s existence : (1) a sovereign Palestinian state and (2) the rerurn of refugees." In the first place, Israel's existence stems from her Declaration of Independence on May 14th, 1948, and her successful War of Independence which fought off five Arab armies plus Palestinian Arab irregulars who tried to take her independence away and for no other reasons. You are trying to use Israel's acceptances of UNGARs 181 and 194 as preconditions for her admittance to the UN which has nothing whatsoever to do with her existence. Unfortunately for you, the ICJ (whose decisions are binding on the UN) ruled before Israel's admittance to the UN that only the conditions contained in Chapter 4 of the UN Charter can be used to determine qualifications for membership and no others. In other words, Israel's acceptances of UNGARs 181 and 194 were offered as evidence of her willingness to be a "peace-loving state" but they were not preconditions.

Dear Israelis, please seize this opportunity for peace. While there are difficult and complex issues on both sides, you have control of the most important one ? the settlements. This colonization of the occupied territories is not all your fault. The USA?s unconditional support of Israel has not only allowed this but unwillingly encouraged it. These settlements are the fuel that feeds the worldwide muslin hatred of Israel and the US. There will never be peace until you leave the illegal settlements. Can you not see this? When you do this then the Palestinians will have more success in controlling Hamas. Thus, giving you the peace and security that you seek.

Do you like red hair?

Mark, Jane is a very lovable, pro Israeli moralist but wrong with so called moderate Islam here, where she had simply expressed her wishes & desires, not the touch of reality. Klaudia was able to simply prove it by `playing` the most common of Qs & As that can be played with the `dreamer`: you either can explain the radical Islam defeat you propagate or it is nothing but the `pamphlet` born by your desire, in other words a fig of your imagination. I would have asked you the same Qs & As, but I have learned your political views & targets are so anti-Bush extreme (when anything is in touch with it) they have not a hint of shame in terms of how moronic it will sound, & you will `coldheartedly & with all unholy means` available will spin your way out of it in the blink of an eye.

Please explain how it is possible to make peace with people who will not even shake hands with an Israeli, or even a Jew; who insist on flooding Israel with so-called Arab refugees who have been artificially kept in refugee camps for sixty years; whose official press spews antisemitic, anti-Israeli propaganda non stop. Please explain how one can make peace with people who want to reverse the decision of the UN of 1947 to acknowledge that the Jewish people had a legitimate right to self determination; please tell me how one can make peace with people who to this day do not even present Israel on their maps that are taught in schools. I do not really expect an answer.

Peterchen, we all still remember Dov Weissglas recommending a "little diet" for the Palestinian people a few years ago. Are you now also suggesting a "little diet" for future generations in Israel....??? (South-Africa, South-Africa....) I am not really sure whether they would appreciate your "advice". Forget about it, peterchen, it simply won't happen. I can't and won't believe that there is space in the Israeli peoples soul for your rather "sinister" transfer thoughts. Better keep them for yourself.

Didn't that Zionist zealot assassinate him in front of the whole world? Didn't I read in Haaretz a few days ago where some of your upstanding folks are talking about letting the scum ball out because he is an upstanding, in your face Zionist, thereby indicating Rabin deserved it. Yep, well, folks in glass houses should never throw stones. Regards.

Easy on em. Let em get use to the '2 states or pack it in' proclamation, and then the others can be eeeeeeaaaaasssssssed on em. What are you trying to do, shock em? Say did you post me yesterday? Regards.

Imagine if u.s. towns were being hit daily by e.g. Cuban (90 miles away from Florida coast) rocket kassams and Olmert went to the u.s. with an enforceable roadmap to Bush. No I cannot imagine it.

existence as a member of the UN. Since it refuses compliance it should actually be suspended like former apartheid South Africa,by a simply majority vote in the General Assembly,bypassing the SC where you know the partner in crime will exercise its veto. Regards.

Well, lots of us were sick and tired of you posting as Paul Harris with caps in tow. Now the caps are gone and you are Victor Hardman, but you still post the same ole BS and everybody knows it is you. Dutch's posts make sense. Yours never did. I'll check to see if anybody cares whether your being sick and tired is a concern. Nope, I checked, it is not. Regards.

Hello Dorothy, Thanks for your kind words. If you want to meet on the way to the Golan, you can ask Ronnie Wolman (mytottenham@yahoo.com) for my email so that this can be worked out. I did not ask Ronnie for this service, so please be kind to him and show him this post. As far as a referendum, Israeli law now requires a referendum whenever sovereign territory is to be relinquished. This would apply to East Jerusalem, the Golan, and any territory to be exchanged for the West Bank settlements. A referendum in Israel seems to be guaranteed. As far as the Palestinians, I hope this is demanded from them, or at least new elections when the deal is to be approved. (But I don't believe the present process will lead to a peace deal.)

Exactly what "strategic position", "international standing", and "bargaining power" of Israel are you talking about? You lost your "strategic position" when Hezbollah routed you in spite of millions sent in arms, planes and clusters; Israel had no int'l standing and if not for the US veto pen and US taxpayer titty would have dissolved long ago, and you never had any bargaining power, only the US did. NOw Dubya has finally decided it's not worth being the sole member of the coalition of the willing--problems with Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran all while you whine, but send no money or troops. Say, slap your face twice on each side, look down, look up and then repost. Regards.

The Leftist Humanist elite of which Jane is one would make you believe that the poor Balis just want Land and they would be happy. Well they got that land in Gaza and instead of settling and utilizing it are shooting Qassams from there. But people like Jane do not understand that Logic and will claim that somehow Gaza peasants want Land in Yesh or otherwise they have this gene that makes them kill and maim. It is not Land that makes them crazy but rather it is a people different then them and no amount of Land will fix that. But radical racists and warmongers like you and me are preventing the Arabs from practicing their brand o democracy a la Gaza. And who are we not to allow them to kill and maim Jews. They will eventually become part of the Human race but we must give them time so that they can grow at their own pace and in the meantime lets monitor they progress and we know things will get worse before they get better. You and I must stop being so demanding as the Arab complex will not stand that. Poor fellows will just implode . My fellow Racist and warmonger lets satisfy those murderous clans and Jane. Lets us buy Jane a ticket to Gaza so that she can monitor them in their mosques in the streets . Let her experience the paradise that is Gaza and maybe just maybe she will allow Israel to live and not commit a slow suicide.

All this whining and crying at the mere suggestion of justice being done. The stint of Zionists in Israel gives those in the world who do not know about their history a glimpse into their makeup that might not otherwise be known, what with all the 'antisemitic', 'I am a victim', blah, blah, all BS. The rubber has hit the road as Dubya needs Arab support; he doesn't need Israel whining about what should have been done many, many years ago. Bravo, bravo. Peace train on track. Yessiree. High regards for your right minded, relentless, hardhitting posts. Ballistic.

doris arab palestine is jordan all the phoney refugees are welcome there. there are at least 100 states who should not be members of the un due to their appalling rights records israel is not one of them 1

Duncan: I never maintained that Israel does not have the right to police the specific criminal acts/actors in the territory over which exercises sovereignty. As the sovereign power it has both the power, the right & the duty to do so. But, sovereign rights do not give a state the right to categorically deny the full range of political rights to the population of those territories, nor to engage in collective punishment, nor to exploit the commonwealth property within those areas unilaterally. Olmert is wrong. Israel has practiced a single state, dual (triple?) status solution for 40 years. It has been supported by, by some large part of the overseas Jewish community, and by Israel's closest allies - most particularly my country, the US. This system has been exposed to most conscientious people and is becoming less politically viable. A "two-state" bantustan solution is completely spurious. Where are the moral geniuses who can lead all the people involved out of this quagmire?

Didn't the Moslem Brotherhood assasinate him in front of the world for making peace with israel?

"Circa 1948, Zionists infiltrated what is now Israel and made war" is a false statement. The Zionists accepted partition in 1947. The Arabs rejected it. Then rioted and invaded. For you to twist that into the "Zionists...made war" indicates intellectual dishonesty on your part. And, how many Black Parliament members were there in apartheid South Africa? NONE. Israel has 10 Arab parliament members, and would have 11 except for a certain traitor removing himself from the list by breaking the law and fleeing possible prosecution. The deputy Foreign Minister is an Arab, as is a director of the JNF. Show me something comparable existed in apartheid SA. Road signs in Israel are in Arabic as well as Hebrew and English. Arab Israelis attend ALL major Israeli universities, can eat in any restaurant they wish, get the same medical care as Israelis, and are doctors, lawyers, professors, even police and army officers. Learn some facts before generalizing simplemindedly...

Duncan, you are really ignorant about the native indian. yes I cannot disagree with you that the american screwed the native indian so bad. but now they are paying for it. if the person is even half indian the government pays him/her salery for the suffering they went through. same as the payment you are getting from the german. do you think Israel will ever pay the palestinian back for what they diid and still doing to them. took their lands and kills them left and right. as for suicide bomber, these are result from occupation. so you should know how to end that. It seems that it stoped for a while but it will come back if you keep ocupation.

Am I forgotten again? What about my ideas on the subject......? Dagma

Israel will always belong to the Jews as given to them in Genesis Ch 12,& 28 to Jacob. God owned the land and give it to Abraham, Issac & Jacob, not a Palestinian mentioned. Arabs are all from Egypt, Iran, Syria, Saudia,Iraq, etc. They are intruders, liers, idolators. They do not worship the same God as we do. Allah is not the God of the Holy Scriptures as given by Moses. Saudia, Jordan, Syria, Iran, etc should give them a "state" they have millions of free acres of available space!!

The Israeli right will probably win the next elections as Kadima implodes. Continued oppression and aggression will ensure that there is "no partner' to deal with. And the next president of the US will be unable to risk offending the pro-Israel faction of which every party wins. Jane is correct, peace is the only viable answer, but there are too many people in love with death to ever let it happen. The Israeli right cannot allow peace, for at that point it will have to provide a better Israel instead of peddling fear. The Palestinians have no hope, so there will be a steady stream of angry young men willing to do anything to 'get even.' The death lovers on both sides have a strangle-hold on their nations.

"I think you should leave them alone. Go someplace else and have your "zionism" and al that (not Uganda either, becuase the Ugandans also don`t want an occupation" So Dough, when will you be giving up your piece of land to the Red Indians that you stole from?

So democracy can, and should, be sacrificed at the altar of the Z vision of a "greater" Israel? As it already has been in the "territories." As you feel it should be in Israel. And when & if democracy (such as it is), in my country, the USA, threatens your vision? Is our democracy to be suppressed in favor of a more authoritarian system that supports your goals? The continuing existence of democratic systems is always dependent dependent upon the mutual recognition of the equal rights of all to participate in the system. Some times this is risky and/or scary. Show some courage.

And maybe Jaffa too, as it was no part of Israel, according to the UN Partition Plan...

You are absolutely amazing. The first thing I do when I open any forum is I scan for your posts (& few others but yours first). It is much more pleasurable to deal with all anti-Semitic, malicious Israeli bashing & far left lunacies with your & some other comments in mind. Thank you

I worry about both leaders...but as we know, Israel has a precedent for assassinating prime ministers who speak about peace. The Palestinians have a precedent for assissanting...but not because of pecae.

Circa 1948, Zionists infiltrated what is now Israel and made war. Far more innocent Pals have died than Israelis and all Pals suffer every day while few Israelis are attacked. Compared to the many (now, millions) of Pals who have suffered under the Israeli whip, the relatively few Israelis who have been hurt by terrorism are a drop in the bucket. In the 2d Intifada, 4 times as many Pals died, 18% of them chldren. Only a tiny minority of Pals actually support terrorism or there would be multiple suicide attacks a day. Instead, there are very few. Its true that many celebrate when those who have brutalized them are attacked - a natural reaction, but polls show most Pals want peace. It's the Israelis who have taken land by war. If the Israelis wanted peace, they should have stayed in Europe or come to the US, where they're welcome. That said, nothing justifies attacks on innocents (terrorism), which both sides have done. But many more innocent Pals have suffered.

Radical Islam is the problem. Moderate Islam is the solution Jane, I am afraid Klaudia is right, as ususal. Because she understands the Arab world truism as no one here. Moderate Islam is a myth, a `loud, catchy` term like so many others used, that can `hide` true meanings behind it. Kind of like the loud boom of curch bells, when `where & why` is not as so important as the `royal moment` & the added emphasis. Moderate Islam `softens` radical Islam, `hides` its ugliness. The true, naked ugliness of radical Islam is as such, it would have in the moment united the whole world against it at once, not allowing radical Islam to `sit & bit its moment`, behind all the Arab games in a hopes of someday (no matter when) see to Israeli `liquidation`. This is the Muslim dream, duty & obligation above anythyng else (call it whatever you want-moderate, shmoderate). Show me the moderate Islamist in ACTION: fighting radical Islam or not simply `vomiting` from any thought of Israeli/Jew `proximity`

Ah yes the braying goes on as the swiss donkey misses the point again...what else is new. Bless your heart for you deep love and involvement in trying to "help" Israel survive and have a vibrant future. Shucks, it's so nice to have you on board. oops and then the swiss donkey woke up in a cold sweat dreaming about being surrounded by black sheep. You choose to excite yourself over the potential demise of Israel for following the Right path and basing it on the notion of a one state solution if the Arabs fail to agree to a two-state arrangement. Olmert did not suggest for a moment that such a thing would happen and he merely pointed out why, Israel would cease to be what she is. Politesse and hopeful thinking had him mention two out of three possibilities. You had better hope the Arabs find a way to take the bird in the hand instead of dreaming about the two in the bush and having nothing.

""It is a surprise that on the day of Annapolis, they launch more missles at Gaza?"" Somehow you conveniently forget the other side of the story:the Islamist/Jihadist launching missiles at Israel from Gaza every day of the year.Do you think this is OK and Israel shouldn't respond Ibrahim?

come on, for the wellbeing of the jewish people worldwide, a 2 state solution is the only wat out .. a 2 state solution under current conditions means that insted of 10,000 israelis being bombred with missiles next to gaza , a million israelis will be bombarded next to the west bank. somehow I doubt that you would lime to live in a neighbourhood that is being bombarded with missiles or would you ? duncan duncan

Most if not all of your posts are excellent and I read them and rely on them. I think I have very little to add though I do have a viewpoint from the diaspora where many who are loud about it feel no sweat- that they can reject opportunities and make no concessions. They are odious frankly and represent the proverbial vocal minority. I will say that my relatives in the Golan that fall into your "religious settlers" category also know the day is coming when they will have to leave. They will accept. They feel temporary in the Golan. Of course there are variations within this category and probably many who will resist and who have deeper roots. So won't this all, in the end go to referendum? Both sides? I think you have a more viable democracy in the Middle East sometimes than we do. We don't care enough to demonstrate or revolt. So if I pass through Tveria on my way to the Golan where will I find you? your friend, Dorothy

what happened to that peace train you were shouting about ? must have got derailed around henderson. dr rice needs to take some medication for hallucinations in the annanas ! george should have asked clinton for some tips on how to fail whilst really trying!

My appolgies for spyguy as he doesn't know any better because all of the media here is wildly biased against anything to do with Israel. Folks here tend so far left as to fall off the edge!

I think you should leave them alone. Go someplace else and have your "zionism" and al that (not Uganda either, becuase the Ugandans also don`t want an occupation). .... so you want jews to be ethnically cleansed from israel in favour of the palestinians, why do you not call for americans to be ethnically cleansed from amercia in favour of the native americans. ? duncan

is on its way when the suffering of all is recognised and people can live in dignity

Since 1967 Israel has exercised the full panoply of sovereign rights over all of Israel/Palestine - including the "territories". ... the more israel controls palestinian lives, the more check points, walls, control towers, the harder it is for terrorists to get through and kill innocent israeli lives. once Israel starts to relax its control, tnen the suicde bombers start getting through. Hence israel is obligated to act the way it does. duncan

I think that the difference between so-called moderate and radical regimes is an illusion. One should not confuse pro-Western with moderate. From the point of view of Israel, there is no distinction. Indeed, the position of Arab states has not changed one bit. It still remains the destruction of Israel, if not by arms, then by political means. The refusal to shake hands with Olmert, the refusal to meet with Livni, the refusal to allow Jewish Israeli journalists, as opposed to Arab Israeli journalists, to cover Arab states' meetings, proves once and for all that the Arabs are absolutely not willing to accept the legitimacy of the State of Israel.

As a christian Woman I see the Lord's providense in Israel's creation. But how can an 80 year old women like me bear to see the Jews give the Holy Land away to Moslems?

Israel's friends look on in horror as Another arab state which hates Jews, is being planed for creation! How can a sympathetic Anglo-saxon like me see my friends going into such danger!

Olmert made no one forget Teddy in Jerusalem, and he was lucky to attach himself to Sharon. A wonderful success story, in my opinion, of someone with limited political and leadership skills. Smart, but for himself, not the nation. Not a transcendent figure like Ben Gurion or Begin. By no means a Sharon or Rabin in credibility and demeanor. Not even an Eshkol or Shamir.They say leadership matters, and in the state of Israel much more so than anywhere else. And now Israel will pay. American Jews will not abandon Israel, Ehud. They will support and fight for a charismatic Israeli leader that engages and influences them. You are not him, in my opinion, but the wrong man, and at the wrong time. G-d help us all.

Hi Zero- There were a majority non-Jewish people living in what is now Israel before 1948. Who cares what they are called? In 1948, most of them were forced into parts of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (WB) or refugee camps elsewhere. To suggest that these people don't exist because the term "Palestinian" is relatively recent is absurd. Circa 1948, the Zionists infiltrated the area and waged war to create Israel, forcing hundreds of thousands of people to leave land that they and their ancestors lived on for many generatons. Whatever you call them, these people have been treated very harshly and have lost their homes. Who cares if the Jews had an empire in the same place thousands of years ago? Only Jews and some Christians that want the end-time to come sooner. It is people that have a right to justice - not ancient empires.

Israel is already finished in a way. It's UN memebership is in default as it has failed to produce two items of its existence (see below) and it is riding on the goodwillwill of others. Yet it fails repeatedly to shaow any goodwill towards its neigh- bors and respect their right to exist. Existence is not a one way street. How dare the Israeli people say they don't want the refug- ees to return to their home. Perhaps it's time to have them exer- cise their right of return and carry their bad neighborly attitude somewhere else. Now I realize they are the last people who should have been allowed back into the Middle East. They are too tribal for their own good. Some free thinking people they are. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. I know I am ashamed of them. Sick to death, actually. Dutch P.S. Two Preconditions of Israel's existence : (1) a sovereign Palestinian state and (2) the rerurn of refugees. Dutch

The Palestnians hate us fiercly. The Arabs look longinly to the day that Chas Vesholom the Israli Army will be defeated. Our only hope is not to give them land. Instead we should counquer as much as we can, from Mecca till Bagdad till Sudan. We must expell all our enemies. They hate us so fiercely that they give us no rest. When an Israli flag is flying over the Kaaba, then we shall no longer live in fear!

turning Israel into an Apartheid state if no equal voting rights are granted. Olmert understands this danger.

Olmert's apocalyptic comments of today are as thoughtless as his old comments were when he was still a full blooded extrimist mayor of Jerusalem.

but in reality they are protecting land taken illegally from the Palestinians where they built their lovely villas and swimming pools diverting water from the Palestinians. ... Jewish communities in the west bank are built on public land not on land belonging to individual palestinians. if arabs can live in Israel then there should be no reason why Jews cannot live in the west bank. Judenrein environments are out of fashion today. duncan

"The question has always been which scraps of unwanted real estate Israel will decide to toss to Palestinians". So the real estate that the 99% of the Arabs are living on outside of Israel does not consist of slums, perhaps you should take a holiday in Cairo and see how 20 million Arabs are living. Why do you think Israel is different from the rest of the region around her? If the Jews packed up their bags and left, do you really think for a second that the living standards of Arabs would rise (for reference see Zimbabwe). Get real.

Perhaps the Bush administration and the Jewish community should make it clear to Abbas and his thugs in Ramallah to respect people and citizens. .... american policy has long been based on the notion that if there are 2 skunks next to you then you help the skunk that is not spraying in your direction. duncan

in the wake of Annapolis and the stirring resolve of having the Conflict resolved in the Middle East with 'Two States living side by side in Peace", does no-one give a thought to that 'Palestinian Covenant' which calls for the ultimate Destruction of the State of Israel....? Is all forgotten....Hamas in the wings.... militants biding time...lives in jeopardy....that 'Little State of Palestine' in a year...and millions of Refugees wanting to return .... ? Some people csn dream can't they?

to Khalil, why 1948? Why not say, the era of King David if we're picking random years to gauge ownership?

Admittedly, encouraging democratic elections in Gaza was a terrible mistake and was not well thought out at all by the US or Israel. They misread the depth of disgust Palestinians felt towards Fatah and so Hamas got itself democratically elected. Planting seeds of democracy needs to happen bottom up and not top down. The big mistake there and in Iraq was electing national govenment first and working down to dog catchers and local representatives. Just as easily as Hamas was elected and kicked Fatah out the reverse can happen. This is the Middle East after all.

The UN voted for ONE Jewish state and ONE Arab state, Israel and Jordan, respectively.

And do you seriously believe the Palestinians would be willing to wait another 20 years, till the Israelis would finally regard them as "dovish" enough...??? ... I agree that they would not be. However there would not be much the palestinians could do about it as Israel is superior militarily. the most they could do is vote in hamas for the second time. If the Americans are not bloody liars, then Abbas and Fayad are currently doing everything possible to restore law and order in the West Bank. .... Some people say the difference between arafat and abbas is that Arafat ws strong enough deliver his people but did not want to while abbas wants to deliver but is too weak. In the end of the day he is of no more use to Israel than arafat as terror attacks continue unabated. hamas has promised that if Israel moves out of the west bank then they move in. something they are perfectly cabpable of doing with abbas's weak leadership. duncan

Polybios, as always, sounds great in theory, but I'm afraid it's not really in accordance with the "real" world. First, why should Hamas be able to take control of the West Bank after Israel left...??? Doesn't sound logical to me. If the West (as promised) is pumping money into the West Bank and the economy there will start to "blossom", it will rather work the other way around, namely people in Gaza will jealously look up to their West Bank brothers and Hamas lose a lot of support in a very short time. Then you are (badly) underestimating one thing: The "world" has simply gotten sick and tired of this conflict, it has far too many side- effects on other important world-issues (Islamic terrorism, oil etc....). The world sees now a "golden opportunity" with the split between Hamas and Fatah, both Abbas and Fayad enjoy a lot of trust among the world leaders. And I'm afraid that will make it extremely hard for Israel this time to "get away" with it....

Howdy Clickfool; I see. So, your response to Israel's internationally-recognized legitimacy as a sovereign state up to the provisional armistice lines of 1949 and 1950 is to arm the Persians with nukes and launch a conventional, aggressive war against Israel with Arab armies in violation of the UN Charter. What a brilliant idea! Well, you can count out the Arab armies of Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq this time around so all you've got to launch your attack are the Arab "armies" of Syria, Hezbollah, and the Palestinian militant/terrorist groups. Good luck with your plan, but I think that it has a snowball's-chance-in-hell of succeeding especially since the U.S. is committed to come to Israel's aid if she is attacked in such a fashion.

Olmert has told the Arabs how to destroy Israel. Just refuse the two state solution.

Olmert is 100% right on this one!

Why do you make us read a "book" when you could express yourself using less words? Do youthink BS baffles brains? Carters a total idiot,appeasing leftist sob,and you can forget JPost..you can have it,if it suits you.You're always talking about it.

They call it the New Middle East. What is 'New'in this old game of Oil? Olmert needs his head to be examined. No man or any power can bring Peace to the Middle East.This must be the obvious massage caming from the ME.Israel is the only candle in this area of darkness.Blow it &the Middle East will be thrown into total darkness.The evil forces will be injected with a strong evil life If Oil is used to finish Israel,next Oil will be used to finish the rest of the world order.The ultimate massage of the fanatics.Democracy is self-consuming sacrifice.It is the only bastian left to save mankind and NOT Oil. We can see that in the Middle East,Russian & now the evil buds blossoms in Latin America.What Olmert doing now is NOT helping Abbas but digging the man's grave.Hamas is NOT a fringe players.Hamas is the ace in the hands of Islamiphobia.It has clear aims.Abbas will be rolled over for bigger evil causes.Will Israel needs to go down with him ?!

Of course Israel will not be destroyed in 18 months, but the future of Israel as a mainly Jewish state will definitely be destroyed. ... Israel is not intending to annex the west bank, so I am not sure what you mean. duncan

Polybios, 18 months is probably optimistic. In fact I envision taking ten years or so. I suspect that this is going to go on for so long that many Arabs will emigrate and the majority will gradually percolate into Israeli society so much that eventually there will be a de facto "one state solution." At some point in the future it will simple be codified. Intermarriage and family reunification will eventually recreate a grand diverse new Israeli society. Peace. Steve

Palestinian Security Services can't be staffed, trained, or deployed without IDF approval; which just ain't forthcoming. Maybe Jones can poke at that dam? I doubt that Israel's civilian gov't can.

(s)I think it was just a few days ago when I told you that Israel simply doesn`t have the "luxury" anymore to wait for a Palestinian Gandhi on the other side (well, I would say Abbas comes quite close to an Arab Gandhi...). .............. I do not think you have been following very well. Implementation (as opposed to negotiation) of palestianian state follows (not precedes) stage 1 of road map, in which abbas has to take out the terror infrastructure which means there can be no more hamas and fatah terror groups roaming around planning terror attacks against Israel. The last thing America wants is a Palestinian Islamic terror state becoming a force for instabilty in the region along side Israel If Abbas cannot deliver or the palestininians do not let him deliver, then there will be no palestinian state. It is as simple as that. Duncan

I hope I've already made clear that this has nothing to do with whether Israel "considers the Pals dovish enough." It is about whether their society is in fact liberal enough to defend the rights of minorities and women, and to oppose the maximalists in their midst, as vigorously as they resist "the occupation." And who said the Americans (meaning this administration, right?) are not bloody liars? (:o) joke) I'm not saying "reward" them with a 20 year waiting list. I'm saying I want to see real peaceful coexistence on the ground, and not just another "Mission Accomplished" banner going up prematurely, and solely for PR effect. I'm saying the solution may be outlined now, but must also be phased in over time, with a clear goal and even some immediate, tangible, benefits for both peoples; but in a way that will realistically end the problem, not just transform it into an even bigger problem down the road(map).

Warren, So, assuming that Israelis just want to be left alone to live in peace and security, does that mean that you advocate or oppose the "two state solution?" Remember, the Kosovar Serbs would have been perfectly happy to live peacefully without bothering a soul if the @$%$#@ ethnic Albanians would just either leave or alternatively cheerfully accept second class status. How about a "one state solution" with "liberty and justice for all." Oh wait, that's already been done. Oh well... Peace. Steve

The tradition is to assassinate the PM, and to later let the assassin beget a child in prison. This monotheism sh*t sucks, doesn't it?

Israel will continue to exist as a country no matter what. But what kind of state will it become without seperating from the Palestinians? It certainly won't be a democracy! Or does anyone seriously believe the Palestinans will enjoy equal rights in case of a one-state 'solution'?!

Hi Judith- I question the claims of Jews to be special, requiring sanctury or being the most persecuted people on earth. US Jews are hardly persecuted, nor most in Europe. However, I think you make one good point. Israel is arguably not a democracy because of the millions of Pals it taxes and whose life it controls. In the US, we threw the Brits out 200 years ago for the reason - taxation without representation. By spouting extremism, highlighting racial issues and suggesting Israel lower itself to the morality of the Saudis, the one key point in your post is almost lost. Though my friends, the Pals, argue otherwise, it would make no sense to permit millions of Pals now in refugee camps into Israel. This would be a recipe for disaster, not peace. But this because of history, not race or religion. Few non-Pals and non-Arabs want Israel to be destroyed. Use reason instead of racial hysteria and you will make your point more persuasively.

Your double talk is just deafening. What exactly are you trying to tell us? That because of the War of Liberation in 1947 this Islamic Fanaticism arose? What crap!!!! You are not very knowledgeable , are you? Based on your posts i can deduce that you have a problem when it comes to recognizing eveil when it stares you in the face . I will tell it to you in Bold letter so that you can study it.THis conflict is 80 years old MY DEAR. THE ARABS WANT TO ELIMINASTE ISRAEL!!!!THE ARABS THAN WANT TO ESTABLISH A CALIPHATE and ELIMINATE ALL THE INFIDELS.JEWS AND ARABS NEVER LIVED IN HARMONY AS EQUALS , NOT EVEN FOR ONE DAY. Next time you reply to Klaudia make sure you have a clear mind as it would seem that something is clouding it now.

While a two-state solution would be best, Israel does not need it, they can live as they are. Resolution 194 states that refugees can return if they like to live peaceably or they can get compensated. Jewish refugees in Arab nations will be owed more than the Palestinians. Additionally, the crime rate where Palestinians live by themselves is high, imagine when they live with their most hated enemies? One-strike and deportation should allow Right of Return and then Israel can negotiate borders. Palestinians will never be free, because then the Arabs will only be able to look inward to see the flaws of society.

even israel's quest for peace is driven by racism. good news is that Israelis are too right wing they will never OK a viable two state solution, which means one state will be the only solution.

"The options have always been two states or a forced march of Arabs across the border to Egypt and Jordan." I think you know that this is just blustering. Let Israel start expelling a few million people and the USA would close your Bakerstan down in 24 hours. Besides, where would you get the buses? BTW, is the barnacle a wind- or stringed-instrument?

This thread will reach over 1,000, more than Carter. Any talk of peace, two states sends those zealots into a frenzy. Read the posts! Golly day, well, Dubya has grown tired of you guys making the US taxpayer ninny sag with your insistence on hanging tight to it. Donkey parable applies here, two life long donkey friends harnessed together were walking over a very narrow bridge over a deep ravine when 1 donkey slipped and fell over the edge. His friend look at em, cut the harness and said 'ain't no point in both of us going over'. Can you read between lines Nemesis? You know, that's not possible at JPost. Be happy, peace is coming for all who seek it. That peace train is on its very LAST run before being mothballed. Zionists will never get a more specific demand from Dubya or the Arabs. Toot toot. All aboard. What a glorious day--it's about time the US stopped wallpapering over injustice. Regards.

So, I see two 'realistic' options. 1) Take the time to let the PA get stronger and more committed to real peaceful coexistence. That will require changing the Arab/PA education system to eliminate anti-Israel incitement and denial of Israel's right to exist; and enough time for a generation to grow up that has not been poisoned by Saudi, Iranian, or Muslim Brotherhood hate. End result - a PA state that can live in peace with Israel. Or, 2) One state in which the same educational reforms take place, leading to a society whose Arabs/Muslims can truly peacefully coexist with Jews/Christians (not like in Arabia, Gaza, Sudan, Somalia...) and stop considering it their "right" to deny the rights of non-Muslims as in Arabia, Sudan, Somalia, Gaza...). Whether it is to give the PA time to moderate, and to build consensus in the world that that must be done; or to build that consensus within one society; seems to me six of one and a half dozen of the other. Either way, more than 18 months.

Since 9-11, we in the US have been treated to the apocalytic speech of the Bush Administration with talk of mushroom clouds and "You're with us or with the terrorists," ad naseum. Was it George Bush or Louis XIV who said "Apres moi, Le Deluge?" Olmert just spent some time with Bush. Maybe he just picked up a new habit of speech.

Hello sptz- Is surrounding oneself with smart people (IQnicks) wrong? Israel has tried its "iron fist" and the "make them miserable so they will go away" stragies. Neither worked. It's about time someone with intelligence realizes that Greater Israel is a fantasy and that it will have to compromise to ever know peace. Pragmatism must replace idealogy or Israel is facing a tragic fate. The UN Security Council would have imposed sanctions far beyond the sanctions against South Africa but for one thing - the US veto. The violent suppression of the Pals by Israel is worse than the treatment of blacks in South Africa and, when - nor if - Israel loses the automatic US veto, it will be more sanctioned than South Africa. The South Africa analogy is apt because it the best example of the world-wide sanctions Israel will face if it doesn't stop its abuse of the Pals. Peace, Rick

Congratulations on your succint description of Israeli realities! Very few of those who post here have any real understanding of Apartheid and the parallels with Israel and the occupied territories. Like you, I think, I am pessimistic, but one-state is the only possibility.

The trouble is that Hamas and Hezbollah would not be content with even the 1947/48 borders and certainly you know that. Israel will never give up territory won in wars unless the Palestinians are able to neutralize the terror threat and accept the Quartet conditions. Anything else is wishful thinking on your part.

The plan for what a final settlement could look like can be done now. But it will take decades to realize and implement. Why? If Israel were to evacuate the WB anytime soon, Hamas would likely take over, abrogate all prior deals by Abbas (whom-they-call-traitor), and resume the assault on Israel's existence from a better position. Israel will be forced to defend itself - from rockets on the airport, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and/or more suicide bombers - and go back in. So that is a recipe for 'back to square one.' (cont'd)

Alan, What in all creation could possibly give even the slightest relevance to these references to Bosnia. Are you claiming that all Arabs in Israel should return or be expelled to the homes of their 8th and 9th century ancestors?? That is insanity and criminal. Obviously you meant something else though it was apparently obscured in the expression. Peace. Steve

You don't understand. People like Doug don't really want to know what Israelis or Israel are really like. Someone who learns the history of the Israel-Arab conflict from a talkback from as heavily left-wing readership as Haaretz's really just wants to re-enforce their existing prejudices. Its hard to understand that anyone can form the view that's its the Palestinians who just want to be left alone when its they who blow up the buses and the restaurants. Especially when they read that the Palestinian polls show that its not just the crazy minority but the majority of the population which supports terrorism. They don't realise that its the Israelis who just want to be left alone rather than the Palestinians. With a bit of honest research Doug my understand why most Jerusalem Palestinians want to stay under israeli rule rather than under Palestinian.

After all one of the reasons, and maybe thee reason, Arafat could not accept the Clinton parameters and the Camp David offer was that if he accepted he would be a dead man. At least Rabin was a brave man and a man of his word. He faced the risk and paid with his life.

After all one of the reasons, and maybe thee reason, Arafat could not accept the Clinton parameters and the Camp David offer was that if he accepted he would be a dead man.

Howdy Clickfool; The peace treaties between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan removed the tentative nature of the armistice lines between those countries and replaced them (with minor adjustments) with permanent and proper borders. These have been internationally recognized as such. So, there's two down and three to go: the PA, Syria, and Lebanon. Lebanon shouldn't be too difficult because nobody except for Hezbollah seriously contests the Blue Line. The Gaza Strip isn't too bad either because nobody except for Hamas seriously contests the 1950 armistice line. The real flies in the ointment are the determinations of Israel's borders with the West Bank and Syria. And you're still stuck back in 1948? I'm afraid that the world has moved far beyond that insofar as Israel's legitimacy is concerned.

We left Egypt, you are free to leave Eretz Israel.

And do you seriously believe the Palestinians would be willing to wait another 20 years, till the Israelis would finally regard them as "dovish" enough...??? After all the broken pro- mises (not only by Israel !!) of the past...??? If the Americans are not bloody liars, then Abbas and Fayad are currently doing everything possible to restore law and order in the West Bank. Don't you understand what kind of signal you send to "moderate" Palestinians, if you "reward" them with a 20 year waiting-list...??? One more example of Israel playing into the hands of Arab extremists...??? Polybios,shouldnt it be a reason for you to rethink your position if (positive) Israel-critic Swiss-Dino is in the same boat with Ex-Likudnik Olmert and the Israel friends Bush, Sarkozy, Merkel, Brown etc....??? Look, I know it's hard for many Israel supporters to say good-bye to certain "dreams",but sooner or later you will have to anyway,why keep on torturing yourself by post- poning it..

Your people would be in much better conditions if money was spent on people and not weapons to attack Israel. But we can't particularly blame the average pal--you have been indoctrinated from birth to hate Israel, given false, altered history, and kept poor by your own leaders to accomplish their own ends. They do not want peace, or a two state solution. Wake up! You are cannon fodder for your own demented leaders, who wish only to totally destroy Israel and eliminate the jewish people completely.

Bosnia Motherland Of "Palestinians" Just stop for a second and focus on the question that the 'assumers' prefer to avoid. So, what are the origins of the Palestinians in Palestine? and why is it that since the arabs have invaded the area in hte 8-9th century, they never declared Jerusalem as a capital? Why can't Palestinian arab genealogy be defined beyond than just pointing at the olive tree which their grandfather planted in their local village? READ ABOUT: BOSNIA - THE MOTHERLAND OF THE PALESTINIANS at http://www.manfredlehmann.com/sieg176.html

These comments seem perfectly in line with Olmert's strategy (it seems) of rapidly eroding Israel's strategic position, international standing, and bargaining power. Any party that is staying in this coalition is responsible.

HA,HA,HA,HA.......

Judging from the posts of some our allegedly peace loving Jewish friends, I worry for poor Olmert's life. Will be assassinated in the same way as Rabin? Anyone care to add Olmert to their death pool?

All depends on what you believe. If you believe God's word, then you believe that that land was given to the descendants of Abraham through Isaac. Read the book of Genesis for starters. God also said that the land was NOT to be divided. Check out "Eye to Eye" by Bill Koenig. Some very interesting occurrences, food for thought.

Polybios, first thanks very much for your kind words from 10 days ago (on the thread of the killed "settler"). Haaretz had a few technical problems by then, so my response didn't make it through. Just wanna let you know, however badly I am going to "bash" Israels right-wingers over the coming months, you and a very few others should feel excluded, although you are a Jewish conservative. The positive exception to the rule.... But now to the topic: Yes, I am absolutely serious. Of course Israel will not be destroyed in 18 months, but the future of Israel as a mainly Jewish state will definitely be destroyed. Most experts do agree that the next year will indeed be the last chance in order to establish a viable Palestinian state, both people are already far too much entangled in the West Bank. You should be honest with yourself, it will already be extremely difficult to separate today, why should it be easier in 20 years...??? Continued....