Olmert rejects U.S. proposal for final status 'shelf agreement'

Peter S to Maureen: "Can't admit you are an apologise for global jihad and their agenda?" Perhaps she's waiting for your admission that you are an "Israel, right or wrong" supporter!

"Maureen is broken down white loser of the type that fills the world" Now Danite, how does your comment contribute to the discussion? Or is free-for-all abuse the order of the day?

Dear Sol - The quotation of Ben-Gurions saying you can find in Nathan Goldman:"The Jewish Paradox", I don't have the page no. at hand sorry. Another few quotations that might surprise you: MORDECHAI BENTOV:"This story about the danger of being exterminated is entirely an invention and alter it was blown uip in order to justify the annexation of Arab territories".(Le Monde June 3rd, 1972). MENACHEM BEGIN:"In June of 1967 once again we had to make a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in Sinai were no proof that Nasser reakky was about to attack us. We must be honest to ourselves. We decided to attack him". (NYT August 21st, 1972). MOSHE DAYAN:"Our farthers reached the borders that were approved in thr UN Partition Plan from 1947 (56%). OUr generation reached the borders from 1949 (78%). Now the generation from the Six DAy War has been able to make it to Suez, Jordan, and the Golan Heiights. This is not the end".(London Times June 25th, 1968.

Ok, give us the exact source of your quote or did you just scrounge it off of some anti-israel site and ssumed it was accurate and in context.

Olmert has actually made a right decision. He told Rice straight that he belives that an off the shelf final status agreement is only going to agree to concesion after concesion from Israel. Abbas cant sell proposal 1 so back to the drawing board Israel gives more. Abbas cant sell improoved proposal 2 so go back again and get more. It keeps happening untill Israel give up virtualy the whole country to Abbas then Hamas make friends with Abbas again and they say they didnt have a say in the deal so we go back again and do more deals this time there will be no more Israel to go back and negotiate with. Rice & Livni are bad news for Israel and for a change Olmert showed some guts and made a decision thats in Israels interests not arab ones.

Zionists - take a break - put aside your hypocrisy for a moment, and read your own history. For a beginning I'll draw your attention to the words of David Ben-Gurion:"Why would the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I should never make deals with Israel. It is natural: We have taken their land, True, it was given to us by God, but to them what does it matter? Our God is not theirs. Our origin is ancient Israel, true - but two thousand years ago, and to them what does it matter? There has been antisemitism, Nazis...But were they guilty? They just see one thing: We came here and stole their land". And the land grab goes on - for how much longer. As I see it Israel is very, very slowly digging its own grave.

Fox hello I apologize for dismissing your proposal. I was remiss in reading it properly,sorry. What you put out certainly makes good sense. Does is seem outlandish?not at all,and that is why went back to reread your post today Monday,and my reaction to it.Obviously I misunderstood in my reply. The concept would be beneficial to the Palis with all the miles/kilometers of empty space mainly uninhabited track of land going a begging.That it would not be ceding land,but forming an economic zone.Ideal in every respect. Wonderful,if only..But!Would Egypt go for it? doubt it. When I replied,I feared the mention the stretching twenty five kilometers from Rafah,and that flummoxed me!And why I jumped to the wrong conclusion.Ultimately a very good proposition,but how to convince Egypt and implement it eh? Thanks again Fox my pal

Danite hello As you say this Maureen is an all time loser and cannot keep away from our Haaretz. She left and promised not to return,but,could not keep away for too long.As Haaretz is a good site for our detractors and she sure is one of them.And now back to begin with her usual hateful diatribes. Do we care,or does Peter SM? Not likely. Nice to see you back here again Danite and wishing you. The very Best

Chris'(The one time Jew) For your information Ashkelon which is one of the two largest desalination plants?Seawater Reverse Osmosis? and produces much of the needed electricity for Israel's inhabitants,additionally for the Gazans,who benefit from it and would be doomed without it.So, stop demonizing Israel by falsifying information.. You need to research your knowledge before uttering rubbish. Just a small addendum:Ashkelon's achieved project in Desalination success the largest in the world notable in 2006,and won the global award of the year.Better still,just "Google"it and look under "Ashkelon" it is all there. Don't come back with silly stories about the supposed highest kidney failure incidences..If so, the Israelis suffer equally,believe me I know of it when visiting hospitals. Where you get your wrong information am amazed and it is beyond belief?

"BORTDER ONLY EXIST BETWEEN SOVEREIGN STATES" Wow! That means Mandated Palestine never had borders.

Eric, you are saying that most Israelis wouldn't agree with the policies of their governement. Honestly, then I am wondering who voted those people into office, and why were they voted in there....??? I'm afraid, in a democracy the voter has indeed a certain responsibility for his actions.

Laura, the message I got from your response: Israel should only act, if everything is served on a silver plate to her, if the other side has solved all its problems. Laura, I'm afraid that's not exactly the way this world is working. At least not in Switzerland.

Philippe, if I'm not too wrong informed, Israel made exactly 2 attempts for peace over the past 15 years (since the PLO accepted Israels right to exist), namely Oslo and Camp David. 2 attempts in 15 years. Do you have any idea, how many attempts Tony Blair had to make during his 10 years of governement with regard to the Northern-Ireland conflict...??? Maybe 100...??? Philippe, if you really want to achieve peace, you got to work hard for it. You can't just walk away offended if it didn't work out the first time.

ISRAEL IS BASED ON THE 1922 MANDATE NOT ANY OTHER TREATY IS GUARANTEED BY THE 1924 ANGLO-AMERICAN CONVENTION AND WAS CARRIED TO USA STATUTE IN 1925! ARMISTICE LINES ARE NOT BORDERS CONTRARY TO THE MYTHS CIRCULATED BY THE ARABS !! BORTDER ONLY EXIST BETWEEN SOVEREIGN STATES PEACE TREATY 1995 ISRAEL- JORDAN

Howdy Labhras; "1, Have you moved to Israel or is Hamas attacking Penn Valley." No, but Israel is an ally of the U.S. and she is under attack by our mutual enemies. "2, Are the Goddammed Rockets coming from the Occupied Gaza." No, they are primarily coming from the northern third of a completely unoccupied Gaza Strip. Who is responsible and to blame gets shifted around between about half-a-dozen Palestinian militant/terrorist groups depending on the local "plausible-deniability" lottery. (Wheel of Fortune--Gazan style.) Israel can do a lot more to neutralize the rocket threat, but the Israeli government hasn't done much since last summer to acquire, develop, or deploy a viable anti-rocket system (which are available now). However, that's internal Israeli politics and none of my business, but if I were a resident of Sderot or Ashkelon, I would be asking some serious questions of the Israeli politicians.

I saw the devastation carried out by IDF bombers in Beit Hanoun and Lebanon 2006, on Australian T.V.! By the way Peter, you read Haaretz, the BBC also reported the Israeli "technical or human error." How about you read the news, but not in Australian right wing 'no news' rags! Cherio.

Maureen is a broken down white loser of the type that fills the western world.Regards

Howdy Tosefta; And exactly who is going to "remove" Hamas from the Gaza Strip? It can't be done except by force. The PA can't do it, Egypt won't do it, and the UN still can't figure out who's in charge in the Gaza Strip much less pass an UNSCR with any teeth to it. Israel could do it, but she is more concerned with stopping attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip and not with reconquering the place so that it can be handed back to the PA two days later. Besides, any attempt by anybody to "remove" Hamas from the Gaza Strip would necessarily entail tremendous casualties (mostly Gazan noncombatants) and the NGOs would go ballistic. The carnage would even turn my battle-hardened stomach. "Removing" Hamas is not a viable option just so that the survivors (if any) can vote on a referendum which has yet to materialize.

I'm sorry you know nothing about the History of the Americas and less about the Jews...In the Columbus fleet,everybody,including the Admiral and the "priests" that sailed in each Caravelle,WERE JEWS...The Sepharadi Jews(Spanish and Portuguese) call the Discoveries,AS FUGAS,MEANING THE FLIGHTS OF THE JEWS FROM THE INQUISITION...Jews perished in the Alamo.Jews crossed the Delaware with Washington,and financed his Armies...Jews built America side by side with all other Americans...Jews fought the Civil War both in the Union Army and the Rebel Army.Judah Benjamin,a Jew,was the Defense Secretary of the Confederacy,and later its Treasurer...Jews never exploded buses to kill Americans,or engaged in terror,like the pals...Jews built up American Medicine,Dentistry,Holliwood,and even Las Vegas...Jews fought in WWl and WWll,side by side with Gentiles...Half,or more,of the American Nobel Prizes are Jewish...rabid anti-semites and islamofacists,don't build anything.They destroy.

Personally, if it's kosher I plan to celebrate with two all beef patties, lettuce, onion, pickle, special sauce on a sesame seed bun. Haven't decided on the dessert, Tofutti maybe. But understand, Israel is GOING to nuke Iran. Only choices left after all the failed, wimpy diplomacy are neutron bomb: http://www.neutroniran.blogspot.com/ or H-bomb: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6835 If demented isolationists sit on their hands, Israel will soon have no option left except H-bomb, which will kill more Iranians than neutron bomb. Your blunder. Don't get me wrong. Either way I'll celebrate that another Holocaust was averted. And with neutron bomb I'll have more to celebrate as the war killed fewer Iranians. I'm thinking something holistic, maybe granola for the ground campaign. But if you're too squeamish to stomach neutron bomb, back Israel into a corner and then it's H-bomb on Tehran. Go for it! It'll be YOUR FAULT.

"Olmert agree several months ago to launch talks...on the condition that these deal not with...Jerusalem, permanent borders and the refugees" - Then what the hell are they going to talk about then!? "Israel has paid a price for its mistakes in negotiating with the Palestinians" - Israel has paid a price for NOT negotiating with the Palestinians. For years it has ignored Abbas and now suddenly with Hamas in the wings they're suddenly best friends. When Israel dismantled its settlements in Gaza it refused to work with the PA to establish an easy transfer of authority. The result was a void in effective authority in Gaza and look what we have today. Israel quite whining, you made your bed so lie in it.

In order to work the plan must address all the outstanding issues in order for it to bring hope to Palestinians, including refugee resettlement in the region and compensation. More importantly it must include a target of a negotiated carefully staged implementation agreement. The agreement has to take into consideration the fact that at the starting point the ability of the Palestinians to carry out major steps is non existant. The steps must be graded so that as each side alternate steps, the steps lead into the formation of a functioning Palestinian state with a single police force and central control. The last step of that negotiated agreement must be the agreed final status. Only when both sides are commited to this process can there ever be trust that the results can be attained.

S...please always keep in mind that any reference i make to israel or israeli in the context of a single entity; i am NOT refering to its individual citizens, but rather to its government and the powers that determine its policies; the two may not always be the same. so please accept my apology, S; and rest assured that i am fully aware that israel's actions do not all reflect the wishes and opinions of most israelis. and thank you for allowing me to make that distinction.

I have heard jews say many times that the palestinians should go live in arab land that israel is a jewish state and hell bent on keeping a jewish majority.What if we said to jews leave canada and the US because we do not follow your religous doctrine.I think we would be called anti semites and bigots.You ask for what you do not give.Palestinians have as much right to return to their homes as you have to live in the americas.Your all for promoteing equality here were we are a melting pot of humanity.Even though you killed off 14 million people.Tell me what the cry would be if we had quotas on jews.Or if we forced you to leave from our ancestorial land.You want your jewish state void of palestinians,then expect like treatment.And dont compare your state to iran and iraq.Their are more jews in power over here at a ratio of 99 to 1 over the aboriginal people,so tell me why you feel that you deserve our hospitality,why you treat palestinians like dogs.Do onto others as you want done to you

A prediction: Israel will continue to do everything it can to avoid serious negotiations with the Palestinians while continuing to build illegal "settlements" (colonies, actually) on Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. So much for peace...

"What does religion have to do with the sovereign Israel? Our country it is,religion notwithstanding." (Kath') Kath', thanks for reminding me that you are Israeli. Israel defines itself as the Jewish State. Judaism is the only religion associated with the Jewish people. As far as I know, Israel does not welcome practitioners of other religions. Observant Jews (especially orthodox and ultras) are widely reported to have a disproportionate influence over government policies. Don't you think religion has something to do with Israel? Yes, no doubt, Israel within 1948 borders is your country. But consider this. The policies of the Israeli government in the Middle East have a profound effect on the national security of the USA, my country. Palestine means something different for many of us than it does for you. We Americans have paid enough to be entitled to have opinions about Israel, don't you think? And besides, people throughout the world care about Israel and the Holy Land.

the behaviour of the palestinians towards each other is their own doing thay have the choice to do right or wrong nothing more nothing less.If you want to be a peace keeper have compasion for everyone regardless of colour race or religion just remember the words of rab Burns a mans a man for aw that.

It isn't Israels fault that Palestinian boys want to blow themselves up. It is the fault of Islam which glorifies such practices and encourages violance and hatred. No one drove the Palestinians to leave other than the other Muslim countries. And now they blame Israel for that?

Then take you and your brethren home,what are you doing here.In your mind jews have as much right to be here as a palestinian has in israel is that true.Should it be done to you as you do to others.

Can't admit you are an apologist for Global Jihad and their agenda

"When you said to Julia:You cannot know I am sure how saddened the words of your post make me today? Does that imply you are a Jew Thomas?" (Kath') Kath', I am surprised you would ask such a question in regard to my feeling saddened about Israel. Why would that "imply" that I am Jewish? Now you make me curious. But I have answered this question several times already in the last few weeks. Upon reflection now, I think it serves a purpose to leave you (and perhaps others) wondering. Do you mind? I also read your posts -- with interest. P.S. I'm not sure where you live, Kath', but here in the USA there are often close relations between people who were born Jewish and people who were not.

I am with you 101% and it would be foolish taking Danite at face value. He is an Anarchist idiot who just hates the settlers, the religious and the right. He thinks that if he says somethiong to the Antisemites that is a defense of Israel. He was in Israel but could not hack it and now pretends to be an expert. He is just a plain MD- the Yiddish version- with very little education or saichel. Keep reminding us here about the Arabs. You will always have my support.It seems that the women on this site have more brains and can grasp the situation better than the man. Kath, Klaudia, KUTW you, Jasmine Murphy and a number of other ladies both Jewish and non. Keep up the good work and may Hashem bless you and yours.

The CIA Factbook does not give numbers of military men fit for military service for the West Bank. That is why I "extrapolated" an estimate of 525000 for *the West Bank and Gaza* from the CIA Factbook data for Gaza. If the number were only for Gaza, then it wouldn't be an extrapolation.

Thanks for your reply, Mr. Weintraub. There was a delay in my seeing it. From my poor perspective, I agree with your observations about Olmert. But I'm still not clear as to what you would have him do? Is nothing an option? OK, stengthen IDF readiness. But what else -- now? Sure, the Israelis elected him, but you are entitled to have and express an opinion. On the other hand, if you are reluctant to be too outspoken, I probably understand that. As you see, I am a big believer in the free exchange of ideas. That's the only way that people with seemingly irreconcilable positions can ever understand one another and come to some kind of workable accomodation. Hopefully.

Something never change. Like the Left and Mark Lincoln. The same water from the same spring. The same undigestable that was already proven unhealthy. "Hamas is hoenst, competent, and fanatic" Mark. Are you talking about Stalin and Hitler? Your descriptions suits all of them. Hitler set the Reichstag on fire, Stalin eliminated the Generals, Hanieyah tried to blow Abass to pieces. Honest to themselves and fanatics to their causes. "The current plan of Olmert seems to be to make things radically worse' Mark. So, in your dictionary Mark, Qassams are apples and oranges that grow in all seasons. "stability is needed" Mark. In this I agree with you mark. You just missed something 'stability of mind with Hamas' is really and truly needed. As your post indicated 'support Hamas and Israel will have peace'. Ofcourse you are right Mark Lincoln for the simple reason because we are all wrong. Every time it sounds like that. Something never change indeed.

If Sadat and Hussein made peace with Israel,why doesn't syria and the pals...I tell you why.... Sadat had to get rid of the russians first...they wanted the Suez,and the Alexandria base...Jordan made a decent peace with Israel,and both are enjoying peace and prosperity...syria doesn't make peace,because who calls the shots in iran...The pals don't make peace,because who is using them are al-quaida and iran...

Thanks for your respond. Cipora will probably be back soon. Do not worry about your spelling, this is INT`L chat forum, not the spelling contest. The main idea of unbias understanding of the situation on the ground, lessons in honesty & relativism are most important, & you are doing just fine.

I agree with Olmert. Step by step. If the Pals sense a fait accompli then they will not act responsibly. Israel is wise to that by now. The US should not exactly be giving advice as to how to manage a conflict right now based on the current mess in Iraq/Iran. When the US starts making progress in her campaign, then she will have the credibility to guide others in the region.

How can peace be ever achieved if Israel is the only country with no membership in Security Council? How can peace be ever achieved if Pal "refugees" are managed by a separate UN egency? Looks like there is a "master refugee" nation and all other refugees in the world are subhumans.

I agree with your post.At last some lucidty from you, I hope it will be habit forming.

I am convinced that the drive for the two state solution is in high gear.Olmert the idiot will of course run interference, but he will be steamrollered eventualy.Many have been waiting for Hamas to hang themselves in order to rush to help abbas.If Olmert stands in the way he will become part of the asphalt.Two states is coming thats for sure,it is timely that Barak made a come back I prefered Ayalon but Barak will do.A re invigorated labor party will a key element in the struggle for israels Liberation form the ME.

I know you don't read well or you would have seen that I quoted from ending of "Strangelove" so obviously I don't need to see it again. Sorry if it's your favorite movie. http://www.neutroniran.blogspot.com/ If neutron bomb detonated far enough above target it does nothing like 50s tests with soldiers amidst regular A-bombs same day. Proposal is to invade AFTER neutron radiation clears in several days. But if you keep ignoring this option, which requires careful planning for ground invasion, H-bomb on Tehran will be only option left. YOU are the one leading Israel to mass slaughter. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6835 As for you wanting Israel to be too distracted securing Haifa, you make good agent for Iran. As Machiavelli wrote, "The injury that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his vengeance." When Israel finally uses enough force, no problems.

How much worth to have a final stutus with one man ?Isn't that as putting all your eggs in one basket? Dr Rice question to Olmert in his last visit to the US; to give an indication as to the nature of peace with the Palestinians.The question was not for Dr Rice benefit.It was on behalf of the Arab Countries and the Arab Countries was asking on behalf of the Palestinians. The Arabs are worry.. very worry they can see the rope is tight and the true eleventh hour is approaching.Olmert reply was excellent 'nay'. The Arabs are suffering from combination of worries in a package marked 'SELF DOUBT'. Their future is uncertain each and every one of them. Their natural response is to turn upon themselves and remain static and hope the future will never come. Israel is walking on a tight rope.Israel is not yet the victor but the task is huge.Israel today is living on the Arab's anxieties. Such a situation can't be resolved in trusting one man his name is Abass.

1. "First would have to come a negotiated and final agreement" - JN Correct. Assuming there is peace at any point, first there will be such an agreement. Not a revolutionary idea but a must. 2. "don`t you think that the Israelis have a vote too?" I prefer that there also be a referendum in Israel. It will help with the settlers. 3. "If the agreement is negotiated with the PA, why would Hamas in the Gaza Strip (Hamastan) be bound by it?" As I say, Hamas will be removed first in order to even allow the referendum. Then the people will decide. It is not an issue for each party to decide by itself.

Olmert agreed several months ago to launch talks with Abbas over "a political horizon," on condition that these deal not with the three core issues - Jerusalem, permanent borders and the refugees Why waste time talking about Jerusalem, borders, and refugees? Maybe Olmert is going to as Abbas for some of his family recipes.

Anti-Semitism! Wrong, I am anti-supremacist/racist Israel! Big difference ScottGuy! The behavior of the Palestinian people toward each other, is the end result of Israel's inhumanity. The world is witnessing the end result (more to come, no doubt) of what happens when human beings are treated as the Palestinian people have been. Tell me ScottGuy, what category do 'Jews' fall into when they follow the belief that non Jews do not have a human soul? Anti-Goy, perhaps?

Come on Dino, you can't make these type of judgement without any historical perspective. I agree that Olmert is not a leader up to the difficult task but in 2000 Ehud Barak agreed on a palestinian state in Gaza, 95% of the west bank (with the 5% being swaped with israeli territory) and even east Jerusalem. He agreed to discuss compensation for the refugees and helping them resettle to the new palestinian state. Wasn't it what everybody was asking for? And we saw the response by Arafat. The elected Hamas parliament also show that the other side will only accept a solution involving the death of Israel. Here in the US we have a say: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

They are just too arrogant! And they are dragging Britain, Australia and other allies down with them! Kind regards.

............who, it appears, we all must suffer as if brilliance was flowing from her very being. It appears that every state department international studies graduate is trying to apply the thesis that got them a good grade in university. It is a pity that because the US is so powerful, the world has to suffer the notions of their fools. In this regard the Osama bin Ladens have a much better handle on the ways of the world than the condolisa rice's.

My question to you is that does Prime Minister Ehud Olmert have any policy other than to do what it takes in order to stay in power as Prime Minister of Israel? I do not know Ehud Olmert, nor do I have any particular admiration for his "talent" of appointing ministers to his cabinet from extreme parties to promote his coalition. The Israelis elected him and it looks to me like he is going to remain in the Prime Minister's residence for quite a while longer. He "inherited" his position on the coattails of General Ariel Sharon, and, in my opinion, not on his own qualifications. Former Congressman Tom DeLay looks great, and I purchased his recent book, NO RETREAT, NO SURRENDER from him. He remains a great friend of Israel and of the Jewish people.

Bruce Last week I went and tried to read the said document.It was mind boggling! So many pages so many provisos,and with the best thing in the world difficult to understand.More simple it would have clarified things and that damned Arafat(MHRIH) wouldn't have gotten the wrong end of the stick--to put it colloquially. Your finger right on the spot....

"So you see, you can get my support, but you have to EARN IT first." With all due respect, I would say that the Palestinians have to EARN an independent state. During Oslo, they used the independence granted to them to arm and incite against Israel, and eventually to start slaughtering Israeli citizens. It boggles the mind that you can't seem to get your head around the idea that Israelis are not willing to go down the same road again. Israeli security must come first. Once Abbas has shown that he can deliver on that, then there is a basis for movement forward, and not until. "And with regard to Olmert, what is your alternative, eternal conflict for Israel...???" Good will is a two-way street, Swiss.

Sensible Very indeed.If only the Palis were as sensible as yourself,things may have turned well for them.No good blaming by saying that Israel takes advantage of their so-called weakness,please. If they find themselves in their present predicament you must agree it is self inflicted,and nothing to do with Israel,that has not only ceded Gaza and the result is plain to see.Subject too boring if it wasn't so sad....

TonyL You have put it all in a nutshell.There is nothing for me to add bar say,thank you for putting out the crux of the matter. Dr.Rice should give up the ghost by trying so many times,words changes only a fraction,but in essence nothing different.I am glad Olmert stood his ground and refused to give in. What else can one add?Nothing at all... Pity Cipora is not with us.She got so fed-up because her responses were not appearing.Of course she is in a huff and don't blame her. She has probably found that Haaretz were having technical problems.Tomorrow is another day after all. Warm Regards

This is a golden opportunity for Bush to achieve something historic (and positive), solving the Israel-Palestine conflict. It can be done while he is still in office: 1. Preparation, as in stage 1 of the Roadmap: Abbas eliminates all militias and Israel removes all illegal outposts, stops settlement activity, and improves the roadblock situation in the West Bank. Gaza not included in the process. 2. Negotiate and conclude a peace agreement within about a year. Implementation can take a few years. Comments: 1. Abbas already outlawed the Hamas militia. (He seems not to be doing anything in practice, though.) Let him also disarm his own Fatah militia and other small ones, all in the West Bank. No excuse why this cannot be done, especially since the official security forces are mostly Fatah people. (By disarming I accept that the weapons will be kept in the PA under independent supervision until the deal is signed and implemented, as was the case with IRA.) 2. Negotiate peace. The negotiations should include all Gaza strip issues, such as safe transit between Gaza and WB. I imagine that The Palestinians will insist on the `67 borders (up to some exchange). Bush should apply pressure on Israel if he wants an agreement during his term in office. When a peace deal is concluded, Israel should move into Gaza and eliminate Hamas, give the territory to the Pals to complete the cleanup. Peace is worth this price. It is OK to have a referendum then. Also have a referendum in Israel. All implementation will start after that. I assume the referenda will be positively received and approved.

I understand. Right now the ONLY sane thing to do is to do what ever is necessary to salvage Abbas. ONLY a successful and quick improvement in the situation of Palestinians can salvage him. That means a REAL prospect of peace coupled with drastic improvements in conditions. Only Israel can provide these things. Fatah is a corrupt and incompetent organization. Hamas is honest, competent and fanatical. The chance to use Hamas to cause Fatah to reform itself is past. Now it will be a duel to the death, which Fatah will probably lose, or a mutual suicide followed by something far worse than Hamas. Abbas has been badly compromised by the failure of the Fatah coup and the subsequent success of the Hamas counter coup. The current plan of the Olmert government seems to be to make things radically worse in the belief that Gazans will blame Hamas while undercutting Abbas in hopes that a civil war will ensue on the West Bank. Stability is needed, not more chaos and hopelessness.

Tell me Thomas What does religion have to do with the sovereign Israel? Our country it is,religion notwithstanding.And you surely must acknowledge this aspect of it....

Thomas When you said to Julia:You cannot know I am sure how saddened the words of your post make me today? Does that imply you are a Jew Thomas? I feel we are not going to have this post out because Haaretz has been having technical problems.But! I sure am curious......

Excellent. You are right on target.

Olmert is right.The "agreement" has to be a "take it leave it deal"...To bargain back and forth over the lives of the Jewish People is a way to disaster...and off course a nonbinding agreement,w'll give them an opportunity to demand each time more...only on agreement is feasable...Let them show performance and good behavior,for at least 20 years,and then w'll talk...And actually,the most humane solution,would be for the "pals" to federate themselves with Israel,after thei pledge allegiance to the State...The ones that don't want it,let them go to the true "palestine",across the Jordan,and live happilly for ever after...

Yes, The REAL Issue Here-- Is Israel's (Olmert's, etc.) OBVIOUS intent...to NEVER negotiate...a FINAL peace deal with the Palestinians. Remember: Olmert was pushing his Unilateral program prior to this...& recently he stated that Jerusalem would not be divided. So: Olmert can not be trusted to add any impetus to there being a FINAL Peace Deal...now or ever. AMERICAN Action/Leadership-- Is required here...TO PUSH ISRAEL to do what is needed...to end their refusals to make the kind of peace that is needed/to end all of their games, schemes & scams to prevent it. Moral Issue: This is now a MORAL issue for America! Predicated Upon The Fact: That Palestinians delivered Abbas, as requested...& ISRAEL/WE reneged...& got Hamas. Abbas has shed Hamas...He DESERVES a FINAL Peace Deal! WE Must Deliver-- For HIM to deliver...& "end" Hamas! Let's Eradicate/Marginalize-- HAMAS/extremists...& reliance upon/support for them. The time is...NOW!

...The world is having trouble getting used to the power Israel exercises in the Middle East, to the sword it holds over hopes for world peace. Obviously, the idea "the world" cherishes, that of (conquered) land-for-peace, is anathema to your own Zionist dreams of Greater Israel... The same as you & YOUR world `cherish` radical Islam & its sword as it relates to the world & Israel: blind stare into the unknown, foreign & better to appease substance (That is of course if anti-Semitic or Israeli bashing goals is not the uber name of the game). Anyway, I will give you the benefit of the doubt & consider you the first category, Come back to us with your lecture of shame, original ideas & proposals when Israel is not the target or when the hypocrasy will expire.

I just got a lecture on confronting lies from Cipora. The one that will confront the Antisemites and has an obsession with an Arab called Tosefta. Yet will not confront an Arabist like you for instance and other so called Jews and self hating Jews. It is odd that you claim to live in Tel Aviv and are probably a member of a minority group that immigrated to Israel for the sole purpose of destroying it from within. The Balestinians are not entitled to a single dunam of Historic Eretz Israel and you should be brought up on slander charges if you lived in a Democratic society anywhere or you would at least be ostracized which you probably are. People here traet yoju with kids gloves simply because you live in Israel. I understand the concept of countering lies and I try to counter all of them and not just the fashionable ones ayou and Cipora took on as a crusade.Clickfool and Tosefta are just juvenile mischief makers and a standard insulting remark would be suffifcient but in your case it is more serious as you are a Leftist Internationalist Humanist hell bent on destroying Israel from within and a spoke in the proper defense for the people od Sderot and ALL of Israel.

Extremely intelligent responce to ignorant Etan.

Very good advice to us all.I, for one can appreciate your clear warning, if we do loose this final opportunity to do business with moderate Palestinians Leaders.We will all be loosers.I hope that it will never come to that. I'm afraid some of my friends do not see the dangers , and prefer the Occupation of Arab Territories, which sooner or later have to be given back for OUR real PEACE and SECURITY.Thanks Aaron.Shalom

Howdy Tosefta; First would have to come a negotiated and final agreement between Israel and the PA with nothing left over for later including borders, refugees, the status of East Jerusalem, water rights, etc. If the agreement is submitted to a referendum for approval by the people, then don't you think that the Israelis have a vote too? If the agreement is negotiated with the PA, why would Hamas in the Gaza Strip (Hamastan) be bound by it?

What is "a just and agreed upon manner and in accordance with UN resolution 194"? It is the most confusing clause in the "Arab peace initiative". For example Arafat thought that it grants a "right of return" to 1 million Arabs from Lebanon. I think this is still confusing "creative Pals" who are looking for any excuse to make their dream of Israel's destruction more attractive.

Howdy Aaron; In the first place, the Gaza Strip is no longer occupied by Israel (brutally or otherwise) and neither are Areas A & B in the West Bank. The total Palestinian population in the Palestinian Territories is closer to 4 million (1.4+ million in the Gaza Strip and 2.5+ million in the West Bank). The Gaza Strip and the West Bank just got a permanent divorce less than a fortnight ago and you're still trying to treat them as a single political entity. You're in good company though because the international diplomatic corps is still stupidly insisting that Hamastan and Fatahland are one. The median age for a Gazan is 15.9 and for a West Banker 17.9. Since the female population is approximately half of the total population, it is physically impossible for there to be 525,000 males of military age in the Gaza Strip. Shear numbers don't make a big difference anyway when the bullets start to fly. With a name like "Aaron Levitt", are you sure that you're on the right side of river?

"WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP OUR SOVEREIGNTY!!! NEVER! we know the world doesn`t like the idea of jewish power but u should start getting used to it!" (Julia) I suppose you are right: The world is having trouble getting used to the power Israel exercises in the Middle East, to the sword it holds over hopes for world peace. Obviously, the idea "the world" cherishes, that of (conquered) land-for-peace, is anathema to your own Zionist dreams of Greater Israel. Is this what we (and I do mean "we") bargained for 59 years ago, still reeling as we were from the horrors of the Holocaust? I don't think so. What more does your ideological perversion of the religion of a great people hold in store for us? You cannot know, I'm sure, how saddened the words of your post make me today.

It seems obvious that the Palestinians would be in a much better position if they would know how to unite behind a reasonable political strategy. Israel merely uses their weakness in order to avoid a just settlement. To blame solely Israel for this is immature. If the Palestinians would put forward clear and balanced proposals and would back them up with an intensive, persistent ad visibly non-violent strategy, they could speedily gain a state in all of the occupied territories and an acceptable settlement for the refugees. Their lack of discipline and realistic vision together with their emotion-driven violence make them their own worst enemy and Israel's greatest friend.

PS. Sorry Dr. Rice. Out of respect I would not call it the funniest, but definitely most irresponsible quote of the week: ...Rice talked about the importance of giving the Palestinians hope, "so that a Palestinian boy doesn't want to commit suicide when he grows up... At least it is nice to know there are no classes in Stanford on the ministries of education & general Arab world media approved school books, adult & child programs, & the rest of material to that effect. And they sure rushed to build even the whiff of a state in Gaza when Israel left. The smallest of the whiffs that would have given a sure, realistc positive hope.

"It might be just wishful thinking, but, just maybe, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was shocked by the Lebanon War in 2006, to such an extent that he is finally coming around to his senses." (JW) This is just a suggestion, but the meanings of your posts are too often cryptic, as reflected in the excerpt above. If you would, please strive for more clarity. Directness sometimes helps. Can you translate the vague observation above into a policy prescription for Mr. Olmert? Greetings to you and all in Sugarland, the home of my idol, Tom Delay.

To whom it may concern:I am very careless when using my keboard.I make many typo errors. But still people when trying to correct me it is obvious that they do understand what I am saying,for otherwise they would not need to point it out.So much for typo errors,also about word tranference.WHO THE HELL CARES?I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN,SO ACCEPT IT AND LUMP IT.THIS IS ME,THIS IS ME.WARTS AND ALL,AS THE SAYING GOES.*****....*****.....*****....*****... PLUS THIS:o(~ _~)o ENJOY****!!!!!

For once lately Olmert stood up & made sense, probably & hopefully with the silent Bush nod, makes no difference. At least he is fully aware that Abbas` darling image is the myth, made up fully on contrast with Hamas, & nothing more than the Arab world façade to usurp the present situation into committing or forcing Israel into `Arab ultimatum` on the spot. And when Ababs WILL NOT DELIVER anything equally substantial to Israel, the ideas of Israeli beneficial security, tackling the terrorists around the corner, just to name the few (there is not even a though of such no-no throughout so called moderates, on the contrary), everyone knows who is the guilty one no matter what, as protocol requires, & where more pressure be put on, especially if any concessions on the Israeli side had been made.

Bruiah Sarah hello Dear and loving Sarah.We know what their attempt is.Both Iran+Syria+Hezbollah as the proxies have it in their minds and are trying to accomplish. But,they will not succeed. For one thing Saudi Arabia is tittering on the brink and cannot dare let it happen.At least one hopes they remember this at all time. However, Israel will have to remain vigilant at all times and never even blink an eye!If the Saudis cannot visiualize it either? What of Israel I say? That their attempt to turn our tiny and democratic country in the middle of a chaotic Islamofascistic entities means,to never forget and stay strong. The only way to survive. And by your definition do you think the U.S.A will sanction this suicidal attempt for Israel to take? I fervently hope not.Olmert has learned his lesson one would think after the second Lebanon war,and once fooled,never again. Faith remains eternal,and it is always nice to see you here warning us all. P/S will go to the said site.I also have the ?Memri? one and can inform myself..

"Dear friend [Eric], please don`t use the inclusive word 'Israel' for the actions of its hated government by the great majority of its citizens...." (S) Hi again, S. I'm so glad to see the above from you. But I must point out that Tigger is only continuing the policies of previous PMs (except Rabin), especially since 1979 when the peace treaty with Egypt removed any effective protection Arab states could give the Pals. Those policies have consisted of (1) extending settlements in the "territories" and J'lem as rapidly as funds and the tolerance of the US gov't of the day would permit, and (2) squeezing the Pals in a double hammerlock, again with whatever forebearance could be exacted in the USA. The goal has always been the Zionist dream of Greater Israel. Sorry to have to say it.

If, yes if, the problem of ceding land falls into some category of international law which does not allow for this practice, well we can always use the "Sheba Farms" as a precendent. "Sheba Farms" whcih is what the Hebollah went to war over, supposedly, was Syrian. Now the hezbollah state Syria ceded it to Lebanon, at least for the time being, as long as it can be used as a means to club Israel, that is. Well if the Syrians can cede some of their land to Lebanon, why cannot the Egyptians do the same. A chunk of northern sinai to Gaza, of course to help out their poor brothers. WHY NOT?

Hey Jeff, and a howdy do to you. I always enjoy your posts, and after reading your reply to Aaron, I realized that you have missed one other option. Back in 1972, even before the settlement movement took hold, the Palestinians realizing that they could not take on Israel on the battlefied, and their brothers were not worth s--t, took their game to Europe. Thus Europe found itself host to the Munich Olympics Masacre, some xciting plane hijackings, and minor bombings in Paris. Europe which is but an abused child, after coming out of the second world war, fell in love with her abuser. When all else fails blow up Europe, sadism is cool, & it works on those who are really scared. Thus we have what Freud would term "projection", instead of blaming those who bomb you, blame the Jews. Still very cool in Europa.

Cipora, I see you are in the camp with those who believe Israel need not fear disastrous war as a result of its unwise and unjust policies. This conviction no doubt follows from applying an elaborate calculus of the odds. You could, perhaps, be right about that; time and fate will tell. However, there are dire consequences other than sudden extinction which could befall your nation. We have discussed them before. Are you prepared for the real, actual one-state solution? Do you think the proud Palestinian people will accept what Israel wants to force on them? That Israel can compel them to flee (again), or starve them out? Extermination or ethnic cleansing will not be permitted -- historical memories, you know. So, again, Cipora: Are you prepared for the results of blind, stubborn ideology? Beware, Ms. Kohn, of your own rhetoric.

The PA arabs knew that the platform for HAMAS is to destroy Israel. commentaries of Talmud say that a lie rests on three legs. Take away the central leg and the argument falls down. Saying that the PA arabs don't want Israel's destruction is not so and has been proven by their voting in Hamas.

If so, you are adorable and I felt badly when I heard you had breast cancer. But I'm afraid your politics are an abomination. There is no link between defeating Al-Qaeda and the Israel-Pal. question. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow or be weakened by US pressure, it would only bolster Al-Qaeda which would rush in to fill the vacuum. As to any moral equivalence between Islamic fundamentalism and Zionism - there's not enough space here to go into that slander. Do you get your info. from Mel Gibson?

If so, you are adorable and I felt badly when I heard you had breast cancer. But I'm afraid your politics are an abomination. There is no link between defeating Al-Qaeda and the Israel-Pal. question. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow or be weakened by US pressure, it would only bolster Al-Qaeda which would rush in to fill the vacuum. As to any moral equivalence between Islamic fundamentalism and Zionism - there's not enough space here to go into that slander. Do you get your info. from Mel Gibson?

You wrote: 'P/S We do as we please,be sure of that. The Americans know what it is like to live under constant terror attacks and are vigilant by catching would be terrorists daily.Also in the U.K." The british learned how to live with constant terror attacks, compliments of Stern and Irgun, that was before another group in the nether regions of my country. Difference is though that they learned how to make Peace, unlike your sucessive governments. I would offer your own advice regarding brain engagement, but that would be overly presumptuous of me. Rgards

Hamas is limited to their mostly ineffective qassams..if they had more capability they would be using it. The talk a good game..threaten,bluster,try to intimidate,but with the wall,Israeli checkpoints,etc.,they can only use qassams and throw rocks..propaganda and trying to turn world opinion against Israel through the media is their strongest weapon.

Almost Understandable-- It's what most people would do. Transfer some & when the deal is done...transfer the rest. However, The Issue Here-- Is Israel's (Olmert's, etc.) OBVIOUS intent...to NEVER negotiate...a FINAL peace deal with the Palestinians. Remember: Olmert was pushing his Unilateral program prior to this...& recently he stated that Jerusalem would not be divided. So: Olmert can not be trusted to add any impetus to there being a FINAL Peace Deal...now or ever. AMERICAN Action/Leadership-- Is required here...TO PUSH ISRAEL to do what is needed...to end their refusals to make the kind of peace that is needed/to end all of their games, schemes & scams to prevent it. Moral Issue: This is now a MORAL issue for America! Predicated Upon The Fact: That Palestinians delivered Abbas, as requested...& ISRAEL/WE reneged...& got Hamas. Abbas has shed Hamas...He DESERVES a FINAL Peace Deal! WE Must Deliver-- For HIM to deliver...& "end" Hamas!

You wrote "These Goddammed Rockets". Hi Jeff. 1, Have you moved to Israel or is Hamas attacking Penn Valley. 2, Are the Goddammed Rockets coming from the Occupied Gaza. Regards.

Kylie Minogue ? Yes right we the Zionist are bad as Islamic Fundamentalists, We go around the world highjacking airplanes, just like the Sabena airplane We go around the world to explode booms in the middle of cities, just like in London, Spain, and Bali We crash airplanes into buildings just as in 911 We go and kill Olympic athletes just like in Munich, We behead those we capture, just like in Iraq We destroy temples, and religious sites, just to build our own above its ruins, just like in India We go preach our Jihad allover the world, Just look at your country, were ever you live. Yes we Zionists are sure an ugly bunch! Get real, Kylie Minogue, and wakeup, Otherwise the world will be highjacked not by us Zionists but something uglier the Islamic Fundamentalism

it is those like you who cling to their infantile and highly costly delusions that re the ones destroying israel.Grow up.

Hi Jordan, water recycling is a very interesting subject. I first checked into it when researching sewage treatment around the Sea of Galilee. I was pleasantly surprised to see how far we had come. One company on the stock market Nasdaq that has become increasingly involved in water treatment and the supply of clean water is 'Elron Electronics' there price rising from ten dollars to 14.50 in the last year. Check them out to purchase or just to see what they are up to. They are producing and funding research into some very interesting methods of treating sludge for agricultural use. I am happy if I have helped you. I recommend that you come over and take a look at what is going on for yourself. mekorot is everywhere, you could probably bag yourself a tour if your request. Choest! all ist paletti

Jeff, Much, but not all, of the drop-off in fatalities is apparently due to Israeli counter-measures. The extremely low level of overall militancy, however, even during relative spikes like 2002, is largely due to lingering hopes of a negotiated solution. If Israel finally succeeds in destroying those hopes, past levels of militant activity will be poor predictors of the future. It is difficult to overstate the likely effects of an Israeli failure to enter serious negotiations with a PA gov't headed by one of the most Israel-friendly, pro-Western Palestinians alive. Regardless of the reasons for the decision, it will almost certainly be taken by many Palestinians as final proof that the Israelis have no intention of ever negotiating anything. If one chooses to create a truly desperate and hopeless people, they will eventually find a way to strike back at their oppressors.

Kath I was surprised by your uncompromising and dismissive response. If the intention is to help the Gazans, and we all accept that the small bit of land is overpopulated and will sustain it's numbers in the future, then it is not worth the while to explore new ideas. what is your problem with the idea. Does it seem to outlandish? Why? Are the Egyptians not interested in helping out their brothers, or is it too an idea to digest. I recommend that you google Prof Joshua Ben Aryieh. After I came up with my little big idea, I began researching the project, and came upon this gentleman's name. He does not talk of ceding land, but of forming an economic zone, shared by the Egyptians and Gazans, steetching twienty five kilometers from Rafah to El Arish. He envisions a Singapore of sorts. Problem is the Arabs are not the Chinese. I beleive that the Egyptians must take some responsibility for the plight of the Pals, we can give no more. They have plenty of empty land!

Post #157 claims, "A recent poll of Pal arabs said that 97% wanted Israel destroyed." I routinely follow both Israeli and Palestinian polls and find that a significant majority of Palestinians want peace with Israel. They also want their freedom and are many are willing to fight for it. And fighting for freedom will eventually bring peace to the Levant, whereas fighting for continued Occupation and Subjugation will only bring about a disaster for all residents in the Levant, regardless who wins.

This proposal is an important step foward.Expecting a perfect outcome before one even ties their shoes is the plan that is doomed to failure,this is a house that must be built in stages.Having an agreement with Abbas will be a very important move.The hold up here is no deeper than Olmerts delusions and futile fantasies of holding Ariel and Tekoa FOREVER!!!!!.All this over 10% of the west bank insted of 5%.The time to breakthrough is NOW! Regards

Hi Aaron, Bruriah is not lying, she is totally brainwashed and her head is full 0f the same old recycled clap trap. Forgive her, She knows not what she does. Rgards

Bruiah Sarah hello Dear and loving Sarah.We know what their attempt is.Both Iran+Syria+Hezbollah as the proxies have it in their minds and are trying to accomplish. But,they will not succeed. For one thing Saudi Arabia is tittering on the brink and cannot dare let it happen.At least one hopes they remember this at all time. However, Israel will have to remain vigilant at all times and never even blink an eye!If the Saudis cannot visiualize it either? What of Israel I say? That their attempt to turn our tiny and democratic country in the middle of a chaotic Islamofascistic entities means,to never forget and stay strong. The only way to survive. And by your definition do you think the U.S.A will sanction this suicidal attempt for Israel to take? I fervently hope not.Olmert has learned his lesson one would think after the second Lebanon war,and once fooled,never again. Faith remains eternal,and it is always nice to see you here warning us all. P/S will go to the said site.I also have the ?Memri? one and can inform myself..

How long will israelis allow this dinkhead to ruin their future all over wanting to keep 10% of the west bank instead of 5%?Olmert is weakening and aggravating israels postion with his "ariel forever BS"The time to strike is now.The idea to have an agreement in principle with implementation delayed for better days is one i have been oushing for months.This will help abbas, weakne Hamas, get reality through Israeli heads and improve israels political diplomatic legal and propoganda situation 1000%.Olmert will of course blow this with his donkey headed stupidity,it is unreal how f....d up he is.

Third, she failed to note that 98% of the Palestinian Arab population of Judea, Samaria and Gaza is living on territory ceded by Israel to the PA, under Palestinian control. How exactly can it be said therefore that Palestinians are ?occupied?? Fourth, in earlier periods of temporary calm before September 2000, there were no Israeli checkpoints, road-blocks, barriers, curfews and other restrictions of which Palestinians now complain. Israeli security measures exist solely and as a direct consequence of the Palestinian terrorist campaign since September 2000 that has resulted in the murder of 1,500 Israeli men, women and children and the maiming and injuring of thousands more. If there was no Palestinian terrorism, Israeli security measures would be unnecessary. Secretary Rice should have lamented -- and condemned -- the cause of Israel?s security measures, not the measures themselves. Fifth, Palestinians, of their own free will, rejected statehood under the Peel Royal Commission Plan of 1937, the UN partition plan of 1947 and the Barak peace plan in 2000, preferring war and terrorism in a bid to destroy Israel. In the case of the Barak peace plan, Israel agreed to Palestinian sovereignty over 97% of Judea and Samaria, all of Gaza and even some Israeli territory, providing the PA was willing to live in peace. For Rice to say that Palestinians deserve a life free of occupation misstates the facts, ignores Palestinian culpability for their present situation and confers legitimacy on PLO and Hamas victimhood propaganda. http://www.zoa.org/2006/10/zoa_condemns_se.htm

This is a golden opportunity for Bush to achieve something historic (and positive), solving the Israel-Palestine conflict. It can be done while he is still in office: 1. Preparation, as in stage 1 of the Roadmap: Abbas eliminates all militias and Israel removes all illegal outposts, stops settlement activity, and improves the roadblock situation in the West Bank. Gaza not included in the process. 2. Negotiate and conclude a peace agreement within about a year. Implementation can take a few years. Comments: 1. Abbas already outlawed the Hamas militia. (He seems not to be doing anything in practice, though.) Let him also disarm his own Fatah militia and other small ones, all in the West Bank. No excuse why this cannot be done, especially since the official security forces are mostly Fatah people. (By disarming I accept that the weapons will be kept in the PA under independent supervision until the deal is signed and implemented, as was the case with IRA.) 2. Negotiate peace. The negotiations should include all Gaza strip issues, such as safe transit between Gaza and WB. I imagine that The Palestinians will insist on the `67 borders (up to some exchange). Bush should apply pressure on Israel if he wants an agreement during his term in office. When a peace deal is concluded, Israel should move into Gaza and eliminate Hamas, give the territory to the Pals to complete the cleanup. Peace is worth this price. It is OK to have a referendum then. Also have a referendum in Israel. All implementation will start after that. I assume the referenda will be positively received and approved.

These two posts show how uneducated even the most educated nations. Just listen to some of the hysterics: "You may think it is immoral to liberate lands that belong to our ancestors, call it occupation does not mean it is. We came back! it`s not our first time on this land!" But for thousands of years before the Hebrews came to this land and united some of it for some time, it belonged to other people. The ancestors who lived in this land prior to the Hebrews, and prior to Judaism, have as much right to

Howdy Aaron; You said, "...we may see a level of armed resistance and terrorism far beyond anything that has gone before." I seriously doubt that. There will be weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth in Hamastan and Fatahland after they have been cast into outer darkness by the security barriers, but their ability to attack Israel is slowly being strangled. Calls for massive revenge against the Israelis invariably fail to materialize other than the usual low level of Palestinian militant terrorism which has been taking place all along anyway. Indeed, as Israeli defenses have improved for the past 6 years, the number of "successful" Palestinian terrorist attacks have been reduced to less than 5% of what they used to be in 2001. The Palestinian militant/terrorist groups are having a really hard time trying to infiltrate Israel on the ground and have resorted to shooting at each other instead. The only military option left for the Palestinian militants is these Goddamned rockets.

It is important to negotiate an agreement with Abbas now. There are no real excuses to prolong the occupation. One cannot count on Abbas to implement the agreement; he is one bullet away from death. But the agreement will set the borders and enable the beginning of settling the Arab refugees around the world. It will enable the removal of settlers and the stoppage of settlement expansion. The agreement needs to be approved by both sides, and be seen as legitimate and binding. For this, a referendum is necessary. A referendum in the West bank will not be aproblem. But in Gaza, Hamas will not allow the referendum to take place. In any case, Hamas will need to be eliminated from Gaza and Israel will have to do it, at the cost of probably hundreds of casualties. Peace is worth this price. One may ask: Would it not have been better to have the same negotiations take place under the PA Unity Government? After all, Hamas agreed that Abbas would do the negotiations, and committed itself to a referendum? The answer is that the previous situation was indeed better. The siege imposed by Olmert and Bush became counter productive after the Unity Government was formed. What can we do? We have a non-statesman at the head of the Israeli government. Rice is not much brighter. At least Dumbya Bush is much dumber.

Palestinian Survey Research Unit poll #23, 3/2007: Question #37) There is a proposal that after the establishment of an independent Palestinian state and the settlement of all issues in dispute, including the refugees and Jerusalem issues, there will be a mutual recognition of Israel as the state of the Jewish people and Palestine as the state of the Palestinians people. Do you agree or disagree to this proposal? Definitely agree 7.3% agree 55.8% disagree 27.3% definitely disagree 7.5% DK/NA 2.1% #40B) According to the Saudi plan, Israel will retreat from all territories occupied in 1967 including Gaza the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, and a Palestinian state will be established. The refugees problem will be resoved through negotiation in a just and agreed upon manner and in accordance with UN resolution 194. In return, all Arab states will recognize Israel... Certainly agree 8.4% agree 63.3% disagree 20.9% certainly disagree 4.8% DK/NA 3.0%

He wants to expel millions of people from their homes. He thinks Israelis and Americans are evil enough people to implement such a deportation. With all their faults, there's no way they would try to do something so evil. Israel and the US understand the need for a Palestinian state, they just don't understand that it has to be a viable state.

Kylie Okay dear,you look after your interests,and Israel will do what is best for the interests of its citizens and COUNTRY.Orders,shmorders We do not care, You go your way We'll go ours. You dare us to order? Derrier it is to ponder, Get thee behind me satan, We are God's children! And will not being driven. The moral of this story goes to show, Ain't anything else for you to know. Goodbye to you and yours Wishing you good dream And t'is full of cream..... Good dreams and life long fun,and joy

A collaborator has no pride, because he has sold his soul. HIs master will always look down on him and only give him crumbs. And when he is down he will dump him. Learn from what happened to Chalebi.

Aaron Levitt, To try and advice our Jeff? Knows every thing you see, And can teach respectfully. Pay attention to what he says, Take note,give it credence, Don't argue in an instance! You who doesn't have a digit, Sorry I just couldn't help it. It comes naturally you see,. Nice of you to worry thee., Well tucked away in Yorky! Should not affect you smoky. Jeff Northridge knows it, Better man than yourselty. Jew,Israeli sure he is not, But cares for Israel a lot! Aaron may be your name, Hope your Jewishness is? Equally the true BIZ! Before I go I do suggest, Study more on this subject..

Clickfool - Speaking of greediness, Look at your own friends or shall I say your brooders the Arab Moslems, Europe should look out from you lot, At a few years time Europe will be a Moslem state, Starting with France (which has had its first Intiphada) Followed by Britain (Just go to London and see) Those countries should look out for you lot, Because you aren?t loyal to the country you immigrate to You?ll use them and chuck them out the minute you?ll feel strong, The world should wake up from the pleasant and euphoric lives they live in, Look around, and wake up, Otherwise they deserve your plans for jihad on the world! Clickfool ? you are sure a fool to click off with your friend indrajaya, how had said before she gets some money from Iran!

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=34926 Iran is forming a chokehold to be used against Israel in the north and the south Both Iran and Syria are funding terrorism...They wish to destroy Israel...Both Hamas and Fatah have been propped up just to do this job. Hamas is more overt about this...and they want to treat their society like the Taliban have...and probably Iran is looking for more land to take - aside from Israel. The arab world understands this (per IMRA)...and fear this takeover.

A recent poll of Pal arabs said that 97% wanted Israel destroyed. In addition, there is daily incitement against Israel - either through kassam rockets in Sderot, children learning hate through Mickey Mouse, or the media lying constantly to the world about Israel. Israel does not have a peace partner - and that peace partner will not be around for years. Any mention of one is purely an illusion. Here is a sample of the Pals desire for peace: http://www.sderotmedia.com/

For those of you who are reacting to the fear and suffering caused by a tiny, militant minority of 18000, please take a minute to think about what will happen if you leave the other 507000 with nowhere to turn but to the militant groups. Or when, in extremity, it's not only the able-bodied men, but 500000 women who have no hope left but to die fighting. Please think about what you're doing; the price for stupidity may be more than you can afford to pay.

and your kind prompt answer! Thanks to your assistance presently already know abt pipe lines, wells, pumping stations. But also abt the 29 desalination plants. And the Mekorot subsidiary cloud-seeding program, which increases rainfall by some 15%. Now having Mekorot's address and e-mail address shall hopefully soon also get the puzzle's last bits! Thanks again!

Each of those 1000 lives lost is a cause for grief, of course, but take a minute to think about how small these numbers really are. There are roughly 3.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. Extrapolating from the CIA Factbook for Gaza, this includes about 525,000 males between 18 and 49 who are fit for military duty. There are lots of reasons why only 18k of 525k are engaged in armed resistance and terrorism, but one of the most important is that the great majority of Palestinians are still hoping against hope for a negotiated settlement with Israel. If Israel fails to negotiate in good faith with the emergency government, then that hope may die at last for millions of people. People who were born and have lived their whole lives under a brutal, foreign occupation.

The United States realise that it needs an Al Qaeda free world. One necessary move towards that is a settlement of the Palestinian question. Which is why Israel will be told what is expected, and Israel will do what it is told. Any other point of view is a Zionist one, and they are just as bad as Islamic Fundamentalists.

OK Condi, Olmert just told you to take your "shelf-agreement" idea and shove (shelve?) it. Look Dr. Rice, even if Israel and Abbas came to some agreement it would only apply to Fatahland in the West Bank and not to Hamastan in the Gaza Strip. The U.S. Department of State had better wake up to the fact that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are now two separate Palestinian entities both physically and politically and will have to dealt with independently of each other. Let's just quietly take the "Shelf Agreement" and toss it on the burn pile along with all the other useless rubbish like the Arab Ultimatum, Taba, Geneva Accords, Camp David, the Road Map, and dozens of other so-called "peace plans" and give them all a Viking funeral with a bugler playing "Taps" in the background.

Reading posts from supposedly "pro-Israel" people who oppose final status negotiations, I am repeatedly struck by their complete failure to consider the likely alternatives. I'm not even going to talk about the suffering of the Palestinians, here, but only the Israelis. Between 9/29/2000 and 5/31/2007, 704 Israeli civilians and 319 Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinian attacks. These attacks were launched by militant forces, primarily Hamas, Al Aqsa, and Islamic Jihad. Hamas is thought to have 6000 operatives in Gaza; I'll guess another 3000 in the West Bank. Al Aqsa is probably much smaller, but let's assume they have another 6000. I'll put Islamic Jihad at 3000, which is probably much too high. That's a total of 18000 fighters causing 1000 deaths in almost 7 years.

I do believe you have it backwards, yet again. It is 'fool me once, shame on YOU, fool me twice, shame on me!!! Quit dreaming about slurping (ceding) more land to you and yours. Better hope you can hold onto 1967 borders when all the hub-bub and dust clears. I see you have stated your 'plan'. Hopefully it coincides with that of God. Regards.

You forget to tell the reaers of Haaretz about the strict rationing endure by the Palestinians of water. You also neglect to inform Haaretz readers of the fact that the Palestinian people have the highest incidence of kidney failure, and kidney disease in the world. Caused mainly by the lack of potable water in territories occupied by Israel (illegally I might add) Which is reason #34 why it is morally reprehensible not to boycott Israel.

Hey Kylie Aren't you getting a bit too old for this political games.Stick if you can to SINGING. P/S We do as we please,be sure of that. The Americans know what it is like to live under constant terror attacks and are vigilant by catching would be terrorists daily.Also in the U.K. Try engaging brain before opening mouth.....

My comment was in regards to Abbas' supposed inability to implement a negotiated settlement (not a proposal) on the Palestinian side. As I said in my original post, that would depend on the substance of the agreement, not Abbas' popularity (or lack thereof) among the Palestinians. Your counter appears to be that the Israelis won't negotiate a substantive agreement, anyway, rendering the Palestinian leadership simply irrelevant. In this, I'm afraid you are quite correct, and Olmert's latest position is simply a smokescreen for Israeli intransigence. For the sake of everyone involved, I hope that you and I are both proved wrong. The new Palestinian emergency government is an Israeli wet dream, and the Palestinians know it. If Israel fails to respond quickly and forcefully on the diplomatic front, the Palestinians will lose all hope in a negotiated peace, and we may see a level of armed resistance and terrorism far beyond anything that has gone before.

FOR YOU--WHO KNOWS,BUT FOR OTHERS TOO. ISRAEL IS CONTINUING DESALINATION AND OTHER DESERT-FRIENDLY TECHNOLOGY IS BRINGING MORE JEWS THAN EVER TO THE NEGEV.SO WATER IS NO PROBLEM. AS IN THE EARLY PART OF THIS CENTURY,MORE ARABS ARE ALSO NOW CHOOSING THE NEGEV AS THEIR HOME.WE GO FROM STRENGTH TO STRENGTH EVERYBODY! SO PEOPLE WHO THINK WE ARE WATER DEFICIENT CAN THINK AGAIN.CHEERY BYE...

It is my name, do you want me to renounce my birthright?

Kath, Olmert will be told what is expected of him by the Americans. The idea that Israel will have a choice is delusional

Abass and his buddy Arafat(the rat)one and the same.Plus the whole lot of them.....

Fox hi Are we still going "round the rosy" again? I say NO,No,NO,to it all.Simple as that and will not waste my breath on any further discussions PERIOD....

GO AWAY AND SIN NO MORE...

Vladimir, I'm afraid 75-80 % of the West Bank will not be exactly what the Palestinians will have in mind (depends whether you are ready to exchange the land...), and your suggestion for Jerusalem might not convince them either, but judging from your previous posts, I'm pleasantly surprised by your generosity. Note, I didn't use quotation marks for the word "generosity", because for a right-winger that was quite generous indeed. I'm just afraid, you would get neither the support of Mr.Netanyahu nor Mr.Lieberman for that. But at least you (almost) got mine....:)

Julia Absolutely!We can tell Abass,Livni,and Ms Rice thus:FOOL ME ONCE SHAME ON ME, DOOL ME TWICE SHAME ON YOU!! As simple as that,and nothing to add,or deduct. Our country will not be divided nor dismembered.We were here thousands of years ago, and we'll ramain here allways...

"Who stays home to secure Haifa if the entire IDF is off occupying those 68 million?" - Mark of Lewiston Ethan can leave Miami and do it!

Hi Mark! I notice you've had no reply yet from Ethan about your neutron bomb posts. I think the lad's busy at the moment playing video games on his computer. POW!!! ZAP!!! WHOOSH!!! TAKE THAT!!! ARGHHH!!!

Olmert is leading the reconstructed Israel nation into destruction. Do any sane Israelis really believe that the United States arms supply can protect them forever? For the Jewish nation to survive, they will have to return to the "spiritual culture" that made their ancestors so revered. Shame on Olmert and the "Hebrew Wannabes".

"Now do yourself a favor and EDUCATE yourself reading those two links." - Ethan Ethan, I for one am far more educated on the subject of nuclear weapons, weapons effects and targeting than you imagine."neutroniran.blogspot.com is an ignorant rant by someone who clearly does not understand the situation and the capabilities of the nuclear forces available. There simply are not enough neutron bombs to destroy the armies of one nation much less the two you think will magically disappear. "http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6835" is an equally ignorant by the same fool. Do you really think an artist in NY has a clue. If he did, he would know that Polonium has many industrial (and even hobby) uses. That Polonium is produced in Iran and Polonium is NOT on any list of those things controlled by the IAEA for non-proliferation purposes.

....."Smartie", if you don't believe it, have a look at www.dic.cc. Bähhhhh..... Anyway, the point you made is non-valid. We are not talking about final-negotiations here, we are talking about visions. The Arab league has offered their vision for the future, Abbas and Fatah have given their green light. But (unfortunately) we are still wating for an Israeli answer. And believe it or not, but the Palestinians, as well as the outside world would finally like to know what Israels position today is, because when we heard it for the last time (Taba 2001), we had a totally different governement in Jerusalem. And the longer Israel is waiting with that, the deeper the mistrust, not only in the Arab world about Israels true intentions. And the day might come when even moderate people like myself might be caught in a wave of conspi- racy theories. Your job to make an end to that.

Howdy Aaron; An agreement and its implementation are two different things. Your little sister can propose but she cannot implement squat unless her title is Queen of the Levant and the Protector of Israel. "full withdrawal to the `67 borders" What '67 borders? Are you referring to the 1949 armistice line in the West Bank? "a Palestinian East Jerusalem" Israel will never relinquish sovereignty over the Western Wall nor over subsurface rights to the Temple Mount. However, predominately Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem might be ceded to the PA as an isolated enclave. "symbolic/limited return of refugees to within the `48 borders" What '48 borders? Are you taking about the temporary ceasefire lines? The Palestinian refugees can return to Hamastan or Fatahland subject to the approval of that by their respective governments. "and free passage between WB and Gaza" That's fine with me as long as that passage goes through Egypt and Jordan and not Israel

"There are hundreds of these nuclear facilities in Iran, all over the place." - Shmuel ben Yhoshua, Neutron Iran - Do It! Not hundreds, not even anywhere near 100. "Iran is also building facilities in places such as Neyshabour where 155,000 advanced P2 centrifuges" - ibid This vital intelligence no doubt came to the author in a dream, or from the grounds in his coffee cup. "In fact, there is a third alternative and that is to drop neutron bombs not on Iranian nuclear sites but on Iranian and Syrian conventional forces ? Iranian and Syrian armies and airfields. This would ruin the entire Iranian and Syrian militaries instantly and make an Israeli ground invasion all the way deep into Iran an overnight cakewalk." - ibid Due to the reality of neutron bombs, this would take far, far more weapons than Israel might have. It would take more than the US has (the US has not had a 'neutron bomb" since the W-7 mod 3 (yield around 1 kt) was retired in 1992. Yehoshua has not a clue.

Full marks this time for paying attention.

parameters - for now , in the future much less for pals - 1. no right of retorn; 2. jerasalem - old city - for israel with access for arabs, some eastern parts i. e. abu gosh could be given to pals; 3. all big settlements blocks are inside israel, jordan is our border with the strip of 5-10 km along. it is more or less first proposal of barak in 2000 and it is as final for now, it means pals are getting 100% of gaza and 75-80% of west bank.

Rice is an idiot , in line of Israeli idiots , that developped all these "Political horizons", for the past 15 years or so , of constant warfare and criminality , palestinians are encripted with. US should ask themselves , whether their 'political horizons" are suitable to actually create some proper political decisions ? And the answer is simply could be found in the deeds . USA for the past 20 years did not provide any solutions to any conflicts , anywhere in the world . Whether it was military or politics , bad decisions followed one another.Maybe they should prepare their own people different, since US created with the help of British/European propaganda the "palestinian problem", the Talibans, the suicide bombers, and the radical Islam.Israel in turn ran itself into the ground by criminally insane leaders forthe past 30 years , that were installed as a matter of convenience by US "advisory" , to affect Israel and its existance , to the point of no return.

Hi MOSHE, thanks for the link, I was away for a day, so I didn't see the article. But Darwish is fully correct, the separation of the Palestinians into 2 "entities" is in fact a tragedy from their point of view. But who knows, maybe it needed such a shock in order to start some critical rethinking when it comes to certain Palestinian strategies (violence as a form of resistance, for example...). However, with regard to the level of self-criti- cism in Israels "silent majority", I'm afraid we have to differentiate here a bit: There is tremendous self-criticism on the Israeli left (Haaretz is a good example for that...), sometimes even a bit too much. However, if we get further into the middle and closer to the right, there isn't too much left of it anymore. Which again is not an Israel-only phenomena, we have exactly the same thing in Switzerland. It must be in the genes...

"Ethan - Rent a Movie" - Mark of Lewiston He would be rooting for General Jack D. Ripper.

REFUGEE PROBLEM., the Arab Summit on the SAUDI INNICIATIVE/PLAN. To be resolved by a FAIR AND JUST settlement. Again Mr Barrak was mentioned as agreed to accept a TOKEN 300.000 Refugees back to their homes. So what is needed for those( the rest of all the Refugees) with solid claims to have a descent compensation(on the basis given to the EX-settlers(Israelis) of GAZA, by a consortium of Israelis/US/Europe Union/ARABS. With the money obtain(compensation) , these refugees can start a fresh life in the New State of Palestine ot the countries they are now residing, or elsewhere they deem fit. EAST JERUSALEM::-Should not walled or seperated with the WEST JERUSALEM, but governed by two seperate(independent and RESPONSIBLE) Councils, and most IMPORTANTLY a joint GREATER COUNCIL(as GREATER LONDON Council)to plan and resolve importants PROJECTS, for mutual benefits of the two constituencies. Everybody should be able to move about FREELY in this HOLY city .

"Neutron radiation destroys soldiers, not property, dissipates quickly." - Ethan Neutron bombs also produce blast and thermal effects Ethan, though over a smaller area than a higher yield atomic weapon. "Then invasion is cakewalk." - Ethan Indulging in juvenile fantasies of omnipotence and invulnerability are you? "nvade Iran through Syria with ground forces to seize and destroy Iran nuke sites on the ground." - Ethan And where does Syria touch Iran Ethan? Are you old or intelligent enough to read a map? Here is the CIA Factbook map of Iran https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html "ONLY way to get ALL Iran nuclear sites: INVADE!" - Ethan At least we can agree on that. "Nuke Iran - Hamas will get message." - Ethan What next? Nuke Hamas? You know what is down wind of Gaza? Never mind Ethan, you would never understand.

Mister (Miss?) sam I am, Hopefully for my Palestinian friends YOU aren’t in position to participate at anything else than this kind of talkback.

Johnny, if I am considering the actual debate in Washington D.C. on immigration, then I am not too sure whether refugees from Gaza would be that much welcomed in the U.S. Personally I am rather a supporter of the "help the people in their own country" theory, than bringing them into our Western countries. But I think it would already be a good start, if the Arab regimes would at least grant the Palestinian refugees in their own countries the right to citizenship, at least if they wanted it. That would also help easing to a certain part the whole refugee question.

The Israeli occupation of the so-called Palestinian controlled areas is at best half-assed. It does not provide security for Israel or the palestinian population. It is desparately in need of an overhaul which establishes a protective mantle for a potential partner like Abbas that will enable him to establish a viable econony, a viable government, and a viable defense against Islamic militant agression. I would characterize the current policy as simply a "Hail Mary" pass. Israel has thrown the ball of governance of the occupied territories as far away as it can in the hope that Abbas, the good guy, will catch it and score a touch down. Whatever the merits of that strategy were before, it has no merit now because it is an absurd strategy. If Israel allows the continuance of the Islamic militant domination of the so called occupied areas it is courting disaster for itself and for the Palestinian people.

vote for sinn fein !

"But Iran is so centralized that it is a "one bomb" country if H-bomb used." - Ethan Buy a map Ethan. Locate Iran. See how big Iran is. See how far apart their nuclear technology sites are. Buy a copy of "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons", Samuel Glasston and Philip J. Dolan, US Department of Defense and Energy Research and Development Administration, US Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 1977 This is an excellent non-classified publication. Compare the weapons effects (if lucky your copy will have a handy slide rule to help) and the map of Iran. You have no idea of the effects of hydrogen bombs or the size of Iran.

"Israel can stop Iran with neutron bombs on Iran and Syria." - Ethan Ethan, a 'neutron bomb' would not harm the Iranian enrichment facility. A 'neutron' bomb is an atomic weapon with a very small yield so that the primary kill mechanism is the neutron radiation. The effective range of this flux is quite small. The mean free path of neutrons in air is relatively short. Radiation is also subject to the square law. Thus from a "neutron bomb" of 1 kt yield, the radiation is reduced by a factor of 10 after 330 meters, and even for a 1 megaton hydrogen bomb it will be reduced to .10 in 670 meters. Shielding for neutron radiation is commercially produce, but need be no more than dirt. See: Protection Against Neutron Radiation" National Council on Radiation Protection, 1971. Neutron bombs are useful because they can be used against tactical targets near one's own troops, not because they are a super weapon.

I HAVE SUPERMAN VISION DEBORAH !! WHERE IS THE WORLDS MORALITY CHANGING? CHINA , RUSSIA ,INDIA , IRAN , SUDAN , ZIMBABWE S, AFRICA 56 MUSLIM STATES ????????????? WHERE DO YOU GET THIS RUBBISH FROM ??

proceed as anew atrocious new terrorist has occured with that in mind

If you,re reading comprehension is not sufficient to allow you to type a six letter name correctly, how can you be expected to deal with the complexities of the ME. It takes two to tango but I will bow out and leave the floor to you. Asta la bye bye.

..and times are changing, but Israel is as arrogant, greedy and deluded as ever and refuses to accept the changes. Israel has already lost it's hold in the region and sweeping changes will be along very soon. The morality of the world is shifting and Israel does not fit that new world morality so it's hand will be forced and Palestinians will get their State. If Israel is stupid enough to try to fight her way out of this one then the end game will result in Israel destroying herself.

Talking about everything except the THREE MAIN core issues.? These main Issues have been discussed so many time in the past.Ex PM Barrak, now the DM of this Goverment, can surely advise Mr Olmert. THE PERMANENT BORDERS. (E.B.) said he agreed to hand back some 95/98%?? , presumedly talking that Israel will go back behind the GREENLINE(Arm.Line), and that the large Settlements will be kept by Israel and the % af equal quality & quantity of ISRAELI lands given to the State of Palestine.The Arab Countries(Saudi Plan), requesting the same, that is Israel return back the conqured Arab Lands(for full recognition), that is surely where the Permanent Border will be for PEACE AND SECURITY, which the International Communities recognized THE GREEN LINE as the International Borders between Israel and its neighbors. It looks that there should NOT have too much discussions except on the settlements themselves, TO BE OR NOT TO BE , as Palestinians or ISRAELIS???

"First: Stop IRAN so Arabs GET MESSAGE." - Ethan Iran is not an Arab nation. "IAEA found in Iran polonium-210, highly perishable, half-life of ONLY 138 DAYS, only used to make A-bomb triggers." - Ethan Polonium is used in a number of industrial processes, primarily as for anti-static purposes in textile, paper, sheet metal and wire production. One very wide spread use is in anti-static brushes for photographic film. Polonium is not controlled. Iran has access to far superior neutron sources such as pulsed neutron generators (zippers). These have industrial uses, especially in the oil patch. They allow very precise timing of a much more intense beam of neutrons than an old-fashioned "urchin" initiator. The Iranians would have to be nuts to go to the trouble of developing a functioning Beryllium/Polonium initiator with its many limitations. "This means Iran about to nuke Israel IMMINENTLY." - Ethan You need to see a psychiatrist fast.

Proof is, he's still in office. He has a cool head and deep down, Israel's enemies know Israel remains a formidable enemy for them, as she continues to grow and prosper, regardless of her difficulties.

Also, we never don't not avoid double negatives in the English language. After meandering through your labyrinth of doubles and trebles, here is why you are wrong: In negotiations, you don't make an offer to a side that can on principle agree and then reject. It weakens your position. The only way to go is backwards. Olmert, could in theory, have the clout to pass a final status plan. Abas does not, at present. Hence, there is no pressure on Abas because he is not accountable. Olmert, on the other hand, shall be held to his word (as will all future prime ministers) and this "shelf plan" (that must, by its very nature, be generous in order to empower Abu Mazen) will just present a basis for future final status agreements that will, invariably, sway towards the Arab's advantage. I used to think that Olmert was rather dense but he has his coruscated moments and this was one of them. He showed true vision. Peace (through superior firepower) out

Prior to 1918, Palestine was part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire. I have heard that there were Jews living in Palestine before 1918. The City of Tel Aviv was founded in 1909. Following World War I, Palestine was under the British Mandate. At first, Jews were allowed to immigrate until a quota system was put in place in 1939, called the British White Paper. Many Jews perished in the Holocaust during 1940-1945, because we were not legally allowed into Palestine during World War II. Perhaps this will answer your inquiry.

to the 1948 partition line,,,,, very easy... the palestinians should accept nothing else. i would not negotiate a anything other than the 1948 partition. israel only exists in the 1948 borders. if the israeli's took land by force, and they see nothing wrong with doing so, then its fair if the land gets taken back by force, which will eventually happen.

Investment in Palestinian infrastructure as to be predicated on the acceptanceof a two state solution recognizng the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish state and a renunciation of terror, and actively fighting terrorby the PA.these princiles havebeen calledinto question by Hamas and the other Islamic groups And the PA has to reaffirm them. As for the political questions, they can be held in abeyance for a longer period of time, until the economic questions are solved

HOW DO YOU THINK SEWAGE IS PROCESSED ? A MODERN SEWAGE PLAT PRODUCES FRESH WATER AT ITS OUTLET

Hi JM actually there is quite a bit of water recycling going on. It is not used for drinking but for irrigation. A visit to Israel and a knowledgable eye, will show you exactly where it is being done, which is in much of the country. Go to Mekorot, which is the national water supplier. They have quite a bit of interesting papers written on recycling. Good luck.

how another neighboring country running its business of its Government, its laws and its security.If The State of Palestine is going to be FREE and INDEPENDENT, then it is up to them to decide HOW not Mr OLMERT. We've seen how HAMAS is a FREE entity, while tanks are still going in at anytime they wish to do so, since DISENGAGEMENT, their borders are stictly controlled, Its Airspace and International Waters are constantly VIOLATED, as well as their water supply, Electricity, fuels etc. Pm Olmert needs to understand that THERE IS A DIIFERENCE in NEGOCIATING with Pres. Arafat and Pres.Abbas,(CHALK and CHEESE) Intefada 2000, started by Arafat to GAIN concessions, while Pres Abbas is against Violence(no intefada)and would like to negociate a peaceful end to the conflict.(CHALK &CHEESE) Mr Olmert should not use excuses to delay Peace Negociations, because AbuMazen is probably one of the last MODERATE/Pragmatic PA Chairman.

Hi Dino. I would like here to propose you another kind of line, more constructive. The line of what could make us more optimistic about this too long Palestinian / Israeli conflict. I am waiting (for a long time) to observe among the “Palestinian silent majority” the same self-criticism that we can find in the “Israeli silent majority”. You could object (and you would be right) that the two societies don’t share the same standards of life. Aristote said, “A little bit of comfort is needed to practise virtue”. So, you can change in the precedent paragraph “Palestinian silent majority” for “Arab…” or even “same” by “a beginning of…” Two days ago, we could read in Haaretz what the Palestinian Poet Mahmoud Darwish has written about the recent events in Gaza. Perhaps the time came we could begin to speak about hope, Inch Allah. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/873759.html

There are objective reasons why there cannot be a political horizon. There are two things that Israel has to do. The hoizon has to be economic. Before we get to this, Israel has to in rough terms create for iself a map of how it sees the borders. Assuming that such a government approved map exists in some secret draw, Israel has to remove all the non- government approved settlements that have sprung up over the years, that do not fit into this concept. It has to obe streessed to the religious right that That setlement in judea and Sqamaria is not an inalienable right either religously or politically. It is a right granted by a sovereign Israeli government. This right might be further questioned by the international community, but at least on the internal level, Israel has to declare what is its sovereign right is to its citizens. After this declaration of self delimitation, Israael has to give an economic horizon, by investing in Palestinisn economic infrastructure.

Israel needs to dump its leaders as well as the US, and the people in the US needs to dump our leaders too as neither care a bit about the people or trashing our countries. i am so sick of hearing aid and nation building going on while our citizens there and hear go without homes, medical, food or saftey. All they care about is their one world order ran by the EU. I also am sick of Rice, Bush and the UN and EU and UK telling them what is good for Israel and the US. There will be no peace there or here or anywhere as long as the jihad goes on and the Muslims get off of G-d's land called by His Name. Everyone playing stupid is bringing world war and unrest..Kick them all OUT..do it today. Go in and take Gaza and keep right on taking what G-d gave you..He tells you,,remove the wicked from you and give no land up..OBEY is the only way..

I doubt if you have ever been to Gaza. My one and only "trip" was on an Israeli bus during the summer of 1968. The bus did not stop, and I recall looking out of the window. Gaza was an awful place then, and I am sure that it is worse now. It would seem to me that an effort should be made to move some of the 1.3 million Palestinians to a land where they can support their families and have a better opportunity for their children. Would the United States be willing to take in some of these people? I would hope so. Probably over one million Israeli Jews have immigrated to the United States since 1948. I just do not think that there will ever be peace (in Gaza) without hope and without opportunity for their inhabitants.

Sombody hit us with the curse, "may you live in interesting times." Olmert only has a narrow window to make something work. Barack has promised a push for elections once the Winograd report is out. Abbas thirty day window to elections time clock is running. Rice will probably end up back at Stanford or at the AEI, where she'll be paid to come up with more theories.

other than your broken record and pathetic little prophecies.For example: ""Now it`s too late, and the future you face in Israel is very uncertain"" The future of Israel is uncertain because false prophets like yourself and others living in safety and comfort thousands of miles away want it to be uncertain and scapegoat Israel. If the future of Israel is uncertain so is the future of many other countries,both neighbouring Israel and some situated far away from the region.

I read the two blogs. The artist friend of yours who wrote it missed a few points. Nobody's tested the theory that troops can enter the radiation kill zone with impunity. The US tested regular nukes after affects on troops in the fifties and gave up after seeing the results. Your friend is proposing a live battle test using Israeli troops. Shock and Awe is really myth and bunkam. He's also proposing that Israel can successfully occupy a country of 68 million. Who stays home to secure Haifa if the entire IDF is off occupying those 68 million? You really should watch the movie. It is more grounded in reality.

Laura I like your reponse believe me I for one wish Pakistan was located in Antartica having to live thru 44deg temperatures these days - is it better to freeze than broil? I wonder.

Peter, the most important thing you left out: Am I included in that list...??? Since today is a Sunday, I will grant you the right to use the "joker"...:)

It was good of the Jews to check the immigration laws of New York and decide not to infringe them. Did the Jews check the immigration laws of Palestine to determine if they would be infringing these by descending there?

...And also Burkhardt/Berlin and Clickfool/Great Britain (respectively posts ## 48 and 53)... Pls somebody EXPLAIN TO ME why it shouldn't be possible for Israel to recycle its water as other countries do. In Germany e.g. we're paying approx. the double price for the cubic metre of water since it's being recycled. But that's ok, that's what it should!!! A few weeks ago I read in an information article that Israel is always looking for fresh water bcs though it gets its water from three sides it does NO recycling, especially not of the supply along the coast which would be needing it the most. Maybe somebody could answer here. Or else e-mail an information link to me (jojomajo@arcor.de).

Abbas and his vile, corrupt, lying heathens are just wanting and waiting on the tax money to be released so it can be divided among the Fatah skimmers

If you are"pi--ed off" try replying to the point raised rather retreating into the comfort zone of slogans and confabulation.

the consequences of a mistaken decision or action and most importantly I am a VERY grateful and proud Australian. I speak AGAINST the malevolent hypocrits(and outright liars) who come here under the guise of humanitarian motives,that begin and end with Israel.

Rice, of whom I am no great fan, is absolutely correct in this case. Unless Abbas is able to produce a final status agreement, or at least genuine final status negotiations, to show his constituents, he will lose his remaining supporters, and Hamas will continue to gain power. Whether any final status agreement can be implemented has little do with the popularity of the negotiator, and everything to do with the substance of the agreement. My little sister could implement an agreement that includes full withdrawal to the '67 borders, a Palestinian East Jerusalem, and symbolic/limited return of refugees to within the '48 borders, and free passage between WB and Gaza. Even Arafat, however, couldn't have implemented an agreement that fell much short of that. For all the "pro-Israel", anti-negotiation people posting on this thread, please consider whether you really want to raise Hamas (or some equally extreme Fatah spin-off) to power in the West Bank. That is what you are about to do.

Perhaps the Fake is simply totally pissed off with you and your messages, Peter. It isn't me, I promise you.

you wrote; "the world of hope in say china india most of africa all arab countries for the poor boys means that millions will explode because that is the way forward ?? just like ireland in the mid 19th century ??". Are you disagreeing with Ms rice????. Rgards

"Islamic Fundamentalists throughout the world are created by the percieved injustice of the Palestinian people". How taqqiyya isn't that mr Jebediah Springfield?! Islamic fundamentalism stems from the Islamic scriptures.

"enough of this nonsensical calling for Israel to give up land for peace" You are right. The Arabs and Muslims should take it back by force. Becuase that is the only language Israel understands. Hence the nuclearization of Iran, Syria, and Egypt is an absolute must.

Dear Laura, I think I will better refrain from getting into the number of deaths from the 2nd Intifada, otherwise you would look (once again...) pretty old. But you are correct, there are 2 "red-lines" where I would withdraw my support from the Palestinians: 1. If Israel makes a peace offer along the Geneva initative/Taba and the Palestinians hold a referendum on it and reject the proposal. 2. If Israel and the Palestinians make a deal, Israel withdraws from most parts of the West Bank, but after a few months comes under fire again. So you see, you can get my support, but you have to EARN IT first. And with regard to Olmert, what is your alterna- tive, eternal conflict for Israel...??? Well, I can guarantee you, if I would be Israeli and you my PM, I would take the next plane to Hawaii or Mauritius.... Hopeless case.

the world of hope in say china india most of africa all arab countries for the poor boys means that millions will explode because that is the way forward ?? just like ireland in the mid 19th century ??

HOW THINGS WORK IN THE SHOUK WAS NEVER UNDERSTOOD BY THE ASHKENAZIM POLITICIANS

Rice stated: "As published previously in Haaretz, "Rice talked about the importance of giving the Palestinians hope, "so that a Palestinian boy doesn't want to commit suicide when he grows up." Is Condoleeza agreeing with Cheri Blair and Ted Turner, to mention just two of many.who made similar remarks and were forced to recant. Where are the 'recriminations now". The silence is deafening.

Johnny, while I would support the actions taken by the Texan merchants (I probably would do it the same way...), I fail to understand the logic when it comes to ME conflict. Is it any suprise that the rockets keep on falling as long as there is NO peace deal, or at least some concrete hope on the horizon...??? Look, I can give you no guarantee that the rockets stop falling after a peace-deal, but I can give you a 150 % gurantee that they won't stop falling without a deal. At least that's what my Swiss logic is telling me. But who knows, maybe the Swiss logic is "too" logical for the people in the ME....

Dear Editor: The threat of Islamist terror in Iraq-which has murdered over 150,000 Iraqis gives lie to the point that this is just a matter of Israel and the Palestinians coming together. The Islamist terror-which is really an ideology-of very extreme fanaticism-has violently exploded in a lot of Muslim countries. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Yemen, Somalia, Indonesia and Afghanistan. If Islamic countries would join the US (including their foremost clerics)in making clear that true Islamic values do not teach this total destruction of the divine spark of life-the soul of mankind-which is the hope of all peace loving peoples. Israel like America is a peace loving nation. But what is occurring now is an attempt to subvert the values of the Abrahamic Accord of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

Or rather, how they failed to work, in the past. Can't remember whether you said you'd read Ross' book. But it is very clear that Arafat took Israel's statements about its positions as a place from which to insist on MORE. Why would Israel want to enter into this futile exercise again?

"Olmert also has to prove to his people that they will get security in return. Not a rash of suicide bombings." This appears to be beyond Swiss Dino's grasp. As does the fundamental notion that the good will in the case MUST be a two-way street. But then Swiss has valiantly declared that there is a "red line" (drawn in the blood of Israelis, no doubt) that once crossed means he withdraws support from the PA. He won't say how many dead Jews it will take, though. The nearly a thousand killed in the last intifada don't seem to have moved him.

In your anti-semitic rant you may have forgotten the Arab states' shock and dissagreement about Hamas's summary execution of their own brothers. When civilians die in Israel's incursions they are either the fruit of terrorists hiding among civilians hoping to produce as many casualties as possible to bolster their PR efforts to reinforce your anti-semitic feelings or are the fruit of accidents. The IDF does not plan actions against civilians, as Hamas and Hizbollah train their children to do. Never in the history of reporting in the Middle East has anyone seen such barbarism as the ones committed by Hamas on their own people, those were not accidents but cold blooded murders of their own brothers and sisters. The Lebannon has become a shooting ground of Palestinians and of opponents of Syria and Hizbollah. In Iraq Muslims blow each other up happilly. So please do not talk about the moral high ground of Jew haters.

Why couldn't Pakistan have been located in Antarctica?

I thought that I had said that Israel would also have to make clear unambigious concessions throughout the process. A major problem is that there is a complete lack of trust between the two parties. This will have to be built up over time. That is where the Palestinians make moves as laid down in any treaty and the Israelis reciprocate with moves. A step by step process ultimately leading to a two state solution. There is a chink of light courtesy of HAMAS it is up to the parties involved and the quartet to turn that into a spotlight.

You make inquiry as to why the Jewish State could not be located in New York. It deserves an answer. In 1924, the United States Government passed a law severely restricting Jewish immigration to the United States, especially Jews who came from Eastern European Countries. Immigrating to the United States was no longer an option for them. As for Canada and Australia, I am not familiar with their immigration laws, but I assume that they also have restrictions and/or quotas on Jews. One place in the world where every Jew can come is to Israel.

Olmert is right on this issue. Rice should not try to tell Israel what to do. It is Israel that has suffered the atrocities of Islamist-Jihadist terrorisms since the 7th century, and more recently, the past 60 years. What Rice and others need to know is that people awash in religious fanaticism of Jihadism for generations are NOT rational. They think they are superior to other people whom they call as 'infidel', that is, people who do not share their religious belief. Hence, rationality does not exist in their frame of mind. They want everything to be given to them without giving in an inch in return. Until the dark forces learn to become nation builders by abandoning their fanaticism in their religious ideology of Jihadism, there will be no permanent solution to the problem. The Western world should stop being manipulated by the dark forces of the world to do their dirty work on Israel. Israel is on a higher moral and legal ground as Israel is Jewish land since 4000 years ago.

Some merchants in Texas have what is called a "lay-a-way" plan, which means that the merchandise is placed on a shelf for a period of time in exchange for a small down payment. If the merchandise is not fully paid for within a short period of time, the merchandise goes back on the shelf, and the store owner keeps all of the money that has been paid. The "shelf agreement" which is proposed by Condoleezza Rice is analogous to the "lay-a-way" plan. Why purchase something when you do not have the money to pay for it?. Why sign a peace treaty when rockets are striking Sderot, almost on a daily basis?

You wrote that Olmert is a "mirror image of Northern Irelands [sic] Mr. Paisley"; like Mr. Paisley, Olmert, in your view, is a Mr. Never. In actuality, there is no peace because Arafat misssed his opportunity at Camp David, where, in the words of Shlomo Ben Ami (Scars of War, Wounds of Peace, Oxford University Press, 2006), he rejected peace and preferred war because "he knew that Palestinian casualties played in his favour in world opinion." Bill Clinton rightly recommends this book to "everyone who wants a just and lasting resolution."

The problem for Israel is that the world are beginning to realise that Islamic Fundamentalists throughout the world are created by the percieved injustice of the Palestinian people. If we can solve that by creating a state for the Palestinian people, even if it is at the expense of Israel. The world will pay that price if it reduces Islamic Fundamentalism, and by that terrorism.

"Rice supports talks on a "shelf agreement" that would outline the permanent settlement but not be implemented immediately because of Abbas' weak standing." - Haaretz Abbas is now left twisting in the breeze. No matter what Elliott Abrams promised him, the US will not deliver. Nor will Israel deliver anything that matters. "Rice talked about the importance of giving the Palestinians hope, "so that a Palestinian boy doesn't want to commit suicide when he grows up." - Haaretz Game over. Now we only need wait for the fat laddie to explode taking Abbas with him.

Egypt's land mass is 995,451 sq kilometers, almost double the size of Texas. It's population is 78,887,007. It is a huge country, and rather underpopulated on the most part. Actually North eastern Sinai which borders Gaza is almost empty, except for the town of El Arish which has a population of 114,900 folks. The area between Rafah and El Arish could be ceded to the Pals more than doubling their living space, and making their statehood viable. It would be the right thing to do, since Egypt is the most guilty of causing this refugee crisis. How do you say ultruistic in Arabic? To find more information check out www.isracast.com/ and Prof. Joshua Ben Aryieh. enough of this nonsensical calling for Israel to give up land for peace, it is now time that the Arabs take some responsiblity for their failures. I call on our Egyptian cousins to show some heart and compassion for their Palestinian brothers.

"A phased implementation of a peace treaty in which the Palestinians are given a number of clear goals that they have to achieve." And, of course, the Israelis also have to be given a certain number of tasks that they have to achieve. Things like stopping the expansion of its illegal settlements to the East of Jerusalem, halting the building of the meandering Landgrab Wall, removing all those roadblocks that make life intolerable for the Palestinians....stuff like that... Or do you think that only the Palestinians have to be given things to do, Chris?

...and the future you face in Israel is very uncertain... No, it's certain....certain death. (soon, many protest would come to me. As usual, unrealistic view of the world).

Dear Editor: Ms. Rice's proposal for a Permanent "final status" agreement that would be shelved until the PA (or is she including Hamas)would be ready to implement it-is not real. The PA now is not ready to negotiate anything. In terms of Jerusalem, or final borders-these matters would take deep negotiation-where after concluded-and agreed upon by the lawful processes of Israel and the Palestinians-would have to be carried out. There is no lawful process for the Palestinians at this time. With the Hamas cold blooded and violent takeover in Gaza-Ms.Rice's proposals were seen to be what they are-prejudice against Israel. Her sympathies are clear. Her premises are now completely shattered. We have rationalization for Palestinian terrorism (as long as it is Israel)but not the PPK Kurdish suicide bombers against Turkey, or Fatah-al-Islam (Palestinian terrorists) against Lebanon. We have to understand that this threat of Islamists must be defeated soundly.

A phased implementation of a peace treaty in which the Palestinians are given a number of clear goals that they have to achieve. When these goals are achieved then Israel has to make some clear unambiguous concessions eventually leading to a two state solution. That certainly work, overseen by Tony Blair prehaps, with a timeline for completion of November 2009. Israel will have to agree, and Olmert has $30 Billion reasons to do so.

Rumpty-tumpty..... The times are changing, Julia. Check over to the east. A giant is rising, and everywhere forces of Islamic extremism are growing. Their focus is Israel's appalling treatment of the Palestinian people. You were too greedy for land, too arrogant to recognise when the moment to settle with them came (about five to six years ago). Now it's too late, and the future you face in Israel is very uncertain.

The big problem in the past with finding a solution to the Palestinian question is that the Palestinians cannot see what they can achieve by having peace with Israel. Israel also likes the Palestinians not to see what they can achieve by constantly raising the bar of what they want the Palestinians to do. It is also no accident that when Israel is required to make concessions a suicide bomber or two sudenly pops up. Condie has hit the nail on the head. What is needed is a steady hand on the helm. A man such as Tony Blair.

Yep, just wants to be left in peace, but does nothing to accomplish it. A mirror image of Northern Irelands Mr Paisley, otherwise known as: "Mr Never,never,never."But even he had to capitulate in the end and make peace. Open your eyes Israel and find yourself a "Yes to Peace", Man or woman.Haven,t you had enough of the ,No, Naye, nevers?.

coming into the Gaza Strip of illicit weapons and explosives, and 2)Palestinian Authority recognize Israel`s right to exist, adhere to all signed agreements, and stops all acts of terror against Israel and Israelis, including the dismantling of all the terror organizations in the western bank. There is no point in goring into any further negotiations if the Palestinian Authority is not capable to implement even the very basic agreements already signed.

No matter how much the world will tell us, no matter how loud you scream, no matter how much abuse you throw at us....WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP OUR SOVEREIGNTY!!! NEVER! we know the world doesn't like the idea of jewish power but u should start getting used to it! b/c we will never give up. You may think it is immoral to liberate lands that belong to our ancestors, call it occupation does not mean it is. We came back! it's not our first time on this land! IF the palestinians refuse our peace and elect jihadist terrorists we will defeat them in war...no matter how much protest the capitals of the world display. It is not your homes, families and children..it is ours, and we will defend ourselves and not be martyrs! u cannot shake hands with a closed fist, so if the pale's want the fist we will give them the jewish fist of Jewish sovereignty unapologetically and assuredly!! we are young state but we r learning fast!!!

That's a good thing, Peter, but if the rest doesn't follow very quickly, then it will have been good for NOTHING. Again, we don't expect from Israel to solve the 3 hot topics immediately, just speak out (or even better, write it down...) what you think about it and what your (Israels) position is. Just let us (the world) finally know !!!!!!!

I agree with you, Burkhardt. The need for the water of the Golan Heights and the Mountain Aquifer of the West Bank makes it impossible for Israel to return these stolen lands.

A continuation of the war started by Hesbala. Missiles laden with shrapnell fired at Israeli cities to cause maximum civillian casualties. Qana was an Arab war crime,firing missiles at Israel from right next to a Red Cross refugee camp. If you want Arabs to have access to holy sites than Jews have to have access as well unless you advocate the Hamas "solution" Sharon was just Arafat's excuse to implement his pre arranged intifada even the Palestinians admit it was pre arranged.

Personally I think that a peace deal is going to happen. It will probably come in November when Bush with a year to go in his presidency and an Iraq which is spinning out of control. Will look at telling Israel to withdraw behind the greenline. I also think that there will be a right of return in there somewhere as the Arab states surrouning Israel will want to see some sort of eal to solve the Palestinian refugee crisis. Lebanon certainly will not want a large Palestinian population.

Then the next step. Is that so hard to sell? Olmert also has to prove to his people that they will get security in return. Not a rash of suicide bombings.

"The ball is in your court Israel." I long ago abandoned any idea that Israel could diverge from the course it is on. It's impossible. There's no one on the political scene who is strong enough or wise enough to make Israel take the tough decisions it must. Any politician who really and truly accepted that the major settlements must be closed, or that Israeli land of equivalent size and quality must be swapped for them would be assassinated by Zionist extremists before he got anywhere near the reins of power. Israel does not realise that things have changed, and that their relative power in the region is now waning. It is too arrogant to recognise that the good times are over. It cannot change and it won't change, which suggests that the endgame, when it comes, will be cataclysmic. Israel is run by mental pygmies.

It is the water. 65 percent of Israels consumption come from the WB and the Golan. The 1967 war was the first one in history that was fared for water.

these people that talk about horizon sound like madmen who live in arkham asylum. As for the people that actually live on terra ferma (sane world) the situation has deteriorated to such a point that violence is the most viable and assures the least suffering. Continuing this cycle of palestinian terror that only gets stronger the longer they say no will inevitably lead to a very very bloody war. Diplomacy is not always the solution, all the time!.... as we see with failed oslo and now disengagement. ITS NOT THE OCCUPATION, STUPID!!!!

Peter, the problem with yours and Olmerts suggestion is the fact that Abbas has not the slightest chance to gain credibilty among "mainstream" Palestinians, without a clear horizon on issues like Jerusalem, refugees and settlements. A few million bucks and a few removed roadblocks won't do it, I'm afraid. And the Israeli governement knows that very, very well. So what conclusion do I have to draw...??? Men, do I really have to become a conspiracy- follower in my old days...???

America gave legitimacy to Israel's massacre in Lebanon and Beit Hanoun - committed under Mr Olmert's watch. To pass off such horrific crimes as "technical errors" and "accidents" by Mr Olmert is against human conscience. Mr Olmert does himself no justice by falling back on Ariel Sharon's little caper (Al-Aqsa Intifada 2000) as an excuse not to talk to peace! The American/Bush Administration lending 'legitimacy' to Israeli massacres does not free Israel from moral responsibility. It is time for Israel to not only talk the talk of peace, but to do the walk of peace. The ball is in your court Israel. Times and events change, America won't always be top dog, and those on the bottom have a long memory.

It was another foolish idea of Dr. Rice to leave the Philadelphi Road hastily agreed by Livni. This made the smuggling of weapons to Gaza a piece of cake. The two FM bear total responsibility for the triumph of Hamas and Iran. Livni should stand trial for the rockets that killed and damaged in Sderot. Hamas will now publish secrets Fatah papers, seized because the cowards of Abbas run so quickly that they left everything behind, which will prove that Egypt and Abbas knew exactly the location of every tunnel that was used by the Iranian proxies and the other terrorists. It sheds another light on the actors in Gaza and the stupidity of the Olmert government.

You:- "Olmert is clearly happy to talk about anything other than the things that matter." The Article actually says:- "Political sources in Jerusalem say that as Abbas becomes stronger and more able to sell the agreement to his people, Israel will agree to expand the discussion agenda to include the core issues. " Keep confabulating a true mark of factual destituition.

"He believes that any settlement reached should be implemented, and fears a situation in which Israel approves the agreement, but Abbas fails to sell it to the Palestinian public. In that event, Israel might be pressured to make further concessions to make Abbas` task easier." "Political sources in Jerusalem say that as Abbas becomes stronger and more able to sell the agreement to his people, Israel will agree to expand the discussion agenda to include the core issues." NOT REJECTING anything. Do you brothers in Hamas agree to recognise Israel EVER?? Is their NO clear enough for you? Can you be even honest enough to just repeat what Hamas want?

you have me pat ?? abbas the non terrorist leader?? abbas was no2 to arafat since 1964 !! in his tenure in ramallah has terrorism suddenly ceased ??

If Russia were Shiite and as crazy as Iran (which it was NOT), determined to kill all Jews and did not YET have the bomb but was about to get it, not stopping them by any means before they got it would be the most "insane" thing of all. But DO learn to read: http://www.neutroniran.blogspot.com/ and http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6835 One H-bomb on Tehran solves everything. Totally centralized country. Several neutron bombs on military forces in Iran and Syria followed by ground invasion ALSO solves everything with much lower cost in civilian lives. Your hackneyed Hollywood response only delays use of neutron bomb plan till only solution left is H-bomb on Tehran. Who's the warmonger then? Sorry, Mark, unlike Russia, if Iran gets the bomb, "We won't meet again." And YOU thought you had something up on me in the pop culture department. Now do yourself a favor and EDUCATE yourself reading those two links.

"...Prime Minister Ehud Olmert rejected..." Recognize HAMAS legitimacy : No Saudi Accord : No Move the roadblock extensively : No Remove the outposts : No Give permission to Desmond Tutu: No Freezing new settlements : No etc., etc,.: no, no,no.............. I remember Andrei Gromyko (the former USSR foreign minister, the MISTER "NYET" meaning "NO"). What the hell is this Jewish State wants then?

No need to negotiate peace terms, they are already there. Israel returns to the 1967 borders. All illegal settlements are evacuated. PAlestinian refugees get's settled in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Removing the illegal settlers at a pace of at least 50.000 a year need to start now. There are no resean to wait.

THE TRANSFER OF ALL ARABS TO JORDAN

"The final peace will not come as an initiative from Israel. It will be made by the survivors of a devestating war." I too have come to the conclusion that Israel is a runaway train, with no-one able to stop it or correct its course. Israel WILL NOT offer a just, satisfactory peace to the Palestinians - it wants their land too much. The Palestinians will have to look for justice to the outside world, and that justice won't come from America, in thrall to the Jewish Lobby. Sometimes the only answer to intractable problems is war, which destroys not only people and buildings but expectations. Like you, Natallie, I fear this is coming for Israel, someway down the line when its nukes have been put out of commission by an Iranian deterrent. Israel refuses to see the writing on the wall. It is too greedy, too arrogant to do that.

Do I think that Condoleezza Rice has any concern, any feeling, for Jews and Arabs, for Palestinians and Israelis? Not at all. Her concern, as you pointed out in Post No. 12, above, is for her reputation and her legacy. In just nineteen months, Condoleezza Rice is going to be looking for a job, and I do not know of anybody who would be dumb enough to hire her. It might be just wishful thinking, but, just maybe, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was shocked by the Lebanon War in 2006, to such an extent that he is finally coming around to his senses.

"He believes that any settlement reached should be implemented, and fears a situation in which Israel approves the agreement, but Abbas fails to sell it to the Palestinian public. In that event, Israel might be pressured to make further concessions to make Abbas' task easier." "Political sources in Jerusalem say that as Abbas becomes stronger and more able to sell the agreement to his people, Israel will agree to expand the discussion agenda to include the core issues." NOT REJECTING anything.

How can those who believe in the 'Original Sin' not understand that their creation and locating of the entity caleed "Israel' in Arab land is their Original Sin -2. Until the injustice of this sin, both to the Arabs and Jews, is repented and suitable amends made the world will keep sliding into more and more terror. The decision makers whosedecision resulted in "Israel' being placed whwere it is are the forefathers of present terrorists. Why couldn't 'Israel' be created and located in New York, in Surrey, Manitoba, in Australia. Why locate it in a place where the Jews have not and will never live in peace. Why make the Arabs pay for anti semetic barbarism of Europeans.

"Olmert agreed several months ago to launch talks with Abbas over "a political horizon," on condition that these deal not with the three core issues - Jerusalem, permanent borders and the refugees - but only with the nature of the future Palestinian state, its systems of government and law and security arrangements for the territories" Olmert is clearly happy to talk about anything other than the things that matter. And while Israel is still busy stealing Palestinian land and expanding its settlements to the East of Jerusalem as it builds 5 Ghetto Palestine - the lasting monument to Ariel Sharon - it CERTAINLY doesn't want to talk about final borders.

Dear friend, please don't use the inclusive word "Israel" for the actions of its hated government by the great majority of its citizens, led by a PM enjoying 17% popularity (where even the biggots number more than that).

Olmert has to stop wasting time and move forward on whatever level possible. Whoever will be in charge in Israel and the PA, the final agreement will look pretty similar. The agreement must involve Jordan and Egypt as well, and Pals must be offered citizenship in their various countries of residence.

treaties, land registrations , when the mandate of 1922 was revoked ??