Olmert, Abbas expected to meet soon amid claims of secret talks

Talking peace with a PM with 0% approval won't go anywhere. Abbas doesn't need to be too diplomatic to a leader in a position like that. Abbas is in a stronger position to make demands. DO IT ABBAS or get the hell out of the MEETING ROOM, just leave him alone.

Appreciate the insight from Ronnie Wolman, and as an outside observor, I have to think that Olmert has let himself be defined as a hopelessly cynical politician. Not that a degree of insincerity and cynicism are necessarily ineffective features in a politician, but I get the feeling the Olmert may be getting to the point where nobody accepts ANYTHING that he says as being sincere, which pretty much reduces his effectiveness to zero. That certainly ended up being Arafat's fate after his last trip to Clinton's White House, but he didn't live long enough after that for it to matter.

talks so secret even Abbas and Olmert don't know they are engaged in them.

It's not an issue of taking Palestinians seriously. After all, Israel clearly takes them seriously...they retreated from Gaza, didn't they? Now, the Palestinians clearly HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB, both in governence, speaking with one voice, and having more discipline. However, under the yoke of Israeli occupation, there is only ONE WAY to have the legitamacy to impose order and ONE VOICE: A PATH TOWARDS FREEDOM FROM ISRAELI SUBJAGATION. Therefore: Israel should work with Abbas, the elected president on a FINAL STATUS SOLUTION covering all issues. Implementation is then contigent upon a series of reasonable security actions. It's very simple Julianna....Don't complicate what is simple.

Are sducide bombers and drive by shootings justified? War is nasty.

Looks as if that is what the benchmarks are working toward. Maybe by fall the West Bank will experience the same unilateral withdrawal.

Olmert's position is actually more extreme that bothe the US and the Europeans: 1. The Europeans: They will accept Hamas showing (by behavior) that they recognize Israel, not engage in terror. In the meantime they DO speak with Fatah members of the PA government and channel a LOT of money to the PA, but not thru Hmas hands. 2. The US: They want (it appears) EXPLICIT statement by Hamas of recognition and renouncing terror. In the meantime they DO speak with non-Hamas members of the government. They also channel little money to Abbas for particular purposes (training his guards). 3. Olmert: Demands explicit recognition and explicit renouncing of terror. Also wants the militias DISMANTLED. Some say: Also wants their weapons collected. In the meantime, does not speak with ANY member of PA government (including non-Hamas), and withholds the PA tax money Israel is collecting.

These meetings are meaningless and hampering Israel in defending itself against the unrelenting rocket attacks of the dark forces against Israel. It is time to stop meeting with the dark forces who are trying to usurp Israel's homeland.

violence and not declaring their support of the Quartet's conditions after over a year since their election. To Olmert's thinking and some of his government members, not insisting on this is capitulation to terror, (terror over decades) which they're concerned would perpetuate over time if they don't officially recognize Israel. But the U.S. insistence on discussions with Abbas to continue, is a measure of hope for some breakthrough. I don't believe a change in government is the answer to the problems here.

If the Palestinians want to be taken seriously, they must speak and act with one voice. They cannot continue to claim that no group is responsible for the acts of any other group, especially since they claim to have a government. You should not confuse internal disagreements with chaos on the diplomatic and armed fronts. It is an old trick to allow a number of different terror groups to take turns committing acts of terror and engage in finger pointing, or even in rivalry as to who is more militant. Mashaal claims to be the top dog, but Abbas is President, and Hanyiah is PM. The PFLP has just made some statement regarding Gilad Shalit. Yet, they are not the ones holding him.

As long as we have islamic fundamentalists in charge of the country, there will be no peace with Israel. Here is Hamas in their own words: http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/hamas_own_words.htm

Smadar, people change their mind every now and then. So everything is possible, but is it probable? I am going by probability. Olmert changed his mind about Greater Israel. True, but it took him decades, and only after OSlo, when the idea was no longer feasible. (Even Likudniks don't expect to return to Ramallah, although Netanyahu wanted to limit Palestine to some 40% of West Bank.) Did Olmert change his mind about Convergence? I doubt it. Lebanon and Gaza showed that unilateral convergence is out, but I don't think Olmert will go beyond the "wall". In other words, circumstances taught him that the WAY he planned is not feasible, but the goal may be the same still. Did Olmert change his mind about the content of the talks? I doubt it. Nothing so far taught him that was a mistake. And he keeps not talking to Fatah ministers in the government of Hamas. So he seems to stick to the same kind of thinking. But, of course, everything is possible.

besides,how many israeli and childrn have been killed by pal terrorist and clan fighting,how convenient of you not to mention that!

so is it not possible that Olmert will change his mind and indeed discuss the core issues of Jerusalem, Refugees and definable borders? He changed his mind about the Greater Israel ideology and moving from right to left on the political spectrum. So why should we quickly come to conclusions here?

Olmert said publicly that as long as Hamas participates in the government, he will NOT discuss with Abbas the 3 core issues of: Borders, Jerusalem, Refugees. What is left? Maybe there are secret talks and maybe not, but they are on relative trivia. And they will be of no consequence since the matter will not be recognized by Hamas, nor brought for a referendum before the people. Olmert is in need of some "good news" so Israelis should be misled to believe that he is doing some good as Prime Minister. Too late. I do admire Olmert's persistence in his fight for survival. He will not resign when every decent democratic leader would have resigned right away. I will be willing to hire him as a lawyer who will fight to the bitter end, but not as a national leader who doesn't know how to do the job.

Today we note with great Pleasure that the Northen Ireland will have a GOVERNMENT coming from the leaders of (UUP) Mr Ian Paiseley and that of the (SDLP) Mr Gerry Adam/Mc Guinness. These Leaders were once bitter enemies, but they sat down and NEGOCIATE TOGETHER for a PEACEFUL SETTLEMENT ( sorted out their problems) and today they are seing the fruit of their labours. Pity that the Israeli Government still refusing to talk to their BITTER ENEMIES, the HAMAS/HIZBALLAH/ASSAD. I cannot understand the rational that The Israeli Government ONLY WANTS to talk to their MODERATE ENEMIES(ABBAS), when in fact a PEACEFUL/ LASTING AGREEMENT can only come out, when signed by BITTER ENEMIES, like in the case demonstrated by the NORTHERN IRISH People. Wish we were them.

"Playing musical chairs is no way to conduct diplomacy. Of course, all Arab sympathisers have learned the game, but it fools none of us. " Kind of like the Sharon-Peres government? A little "good cop" "bad cop" to go along with the musical chairs. Your double standards are transparent.

Lynn, you can only say that something doesn't work, if you tried it out. Everybody knew that the Gaza withdrawal couldn't work, because it was a half-hearted (West Bank excluded) and unilateral step. However, I agree that the Palestinians could have made (much) more out of it. Will a withdrawal from the West Bank satisfy the 30 % of hardcore Palestinians (Hamas/Isla- mic Jihad etc.)...?? Most probably not, but chances are there, that it would be good enough for the other 70 % of "mainstream" Palestinians who then would have to take control of the "bad guys". If they were not able to do that, Israel still could respond, and again, should that be the consequence, there would be no criticism from my part.

"The point is to stop them by the rule of law and enforcement." Since when did Israel obey its own laws, Lynn? It routinely tortures Palestinians, in contravention of specific court orders to the contrary. It murders Palestinians from the air, without the benefit of any form of trial to determine whether they are guilty of any crime. Indeed, at its most basic, it kills Palestinians it believes are guilty of crimes when there's no death penalty in Israel.

The helpless meeting the incompetent ! Guess which is which .

The Winograd Commission vaulted Netanyahu to the fore and left Olmert with only the left to find sanctuary with.Thats the peace train. Netanyahu was pretty well done until that. The only reason Abbas would play this game is to play the soft shoe shuffle while Hamas uses the big stick.I dont think after Mecca that Abbas is interested in winning.He gave up that power to Hamas in mecca asking little of them. Olmert is now squeezed.I still feel there is a great need for the centre,but there is little faith in the players including Livni (that was a stupid move,she too should have kept her mouth shut and taken the spoils when they became available.She showed a great lack of tactic there) So yes in reality it would seem to be the plan of sorts.

V of R,I would think that in reality you are right,that it was leaked out intentionally.And you are probably not off the mark on your first assertion,the reason being is that the Winograd committee has revitalized Likud and bolstered Netanyahu.Olmert needs labour.I believe that the centre is where Israel should be but Olmert is lacking any direction and the others in Kadima are a hodge podge of different ideas strung together by belief in Sharon.There is no anchor. The options of the left and right are really not better. I think the Palestinians are ready to play with Abbas playing the soft role and Hamas the hard.After Mecca I cant believe that Abbas is playing against Hamas.I think he really wants to be in a safe position within whatever happens.He ran away from gaining power rather than fought for it.

palestinians want to be in israel as well as the west bank there are increasing attempts by the plo ro reduce violence and abbas also wants the palestinians to return. there is a unity government in palestine adn eventually there will be unity between istraelis and palestinains as well

How would you deal with withdrawal from the West Bank? Unilaterally? Look at the chaos that caused in Gaza.

and Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. The point is to stop them by the rule of law and enforcement. Just like Egypt does. Makes sense to me.

...we can surely expect an announcement soon regarding more concessions in return for promises of everlasting peace. I think enough hints have been published that it's time I start cleaning out my bomb shelter, again. After that I'll start looking on Daka-90 for cheap charter flights to Europe this summer.

the difference between Rangers and Expeditionary corps, Marines and Navy Seals, Airborne and Green Beret. I know it is above your pay grade, but Cipora makes a logical point and you don't get it. Rather than calling her names, you could think, cogitate, and ponder and really understand what she says.....I guess you would rather hammer a few keys and make a quick quip?

If such an Israeli assault happens as a reponse to an attack against Israelis AFTER Israel has left the West Bank, you will not hear one word of criticism from me. But until that happens you will get an ear full. That makes all the difference to me.

Peter, if true, does the fact, that the girl was asked before to leave the house, make her killing more justifiable...?? You see, that's the problem, Peter. You (and many Israelis) believe, that not to obey to an Israeli order justifies the death penalty for a 17 year old girl. I (and most people around the world) can't agree with that.

No doubt he is waiting for your selective historical insights and your obvious ability to keep repeating the same lie over and over. It was pointed out to you days ago that the girl was asked to leave along with everybody.

The last Hamas Gaza ceasefire Hamas said that it would ALL stop,it did for about an hour. They said plainly they could stop it ALL. Your spin, mainlyI.J.These groups change their names all the time and work together when it suits them. So you think soldiers surrendering is the way to go,no attempt as soldiers to do anything, evasive manouvers,just surrender. Maybe if the level of competence allows them to be sorrounded in broad daylight on the high seas. No wonder you want to forget it and to shrug off incompetence by having a dig at the bravery of others. Soldiers of Israel who fought and were prepared to die so the rest could survive. Tough you can't cope with real men,just praise the points and prestige you gave the Iranians by your practicallity.You have Iran terrified now,they will never do it again,will they?

"Playing musical chairs is no way to conduct diplomacy. Of course, all Arab sympathisers have learned the game, but it fools none of us." Sorry, Cipora - I have no idea what you are talking about. I point out that most of the Qassams being fired out of Gaza are from Islamic Jihad, not Hamas. You indulge in gnomic utterances.

Olmerts "secret" talks seem to be a last desperate convulsion before the unavoidable (political) collapse. The Israeli people have decided to fall in love with a new bride, much more attractive and verbally clever (or rather tricky...??) than the old one. And since they have seen Mr.Sarkozys ( a good friend of the new bride, by the way...) triumph ride through Paris, the die is cast: No sexy ride possible with Olmert = Thumbs down P.S. Did I ever mention the word "character" in my post....???

Playing musical chairs is no way to conduct diplomacy. Of course, all Arab sympathisers have learned the game, but it fools none of us.

my god...how desperete can one man be to save himself and his legacy... he's pulling out four rabbits of the palestinian hat in a lsat ditch attempt to prove his legitimacy or something//WOW, South African politics seems normal for once. ish.

I love this !!! To neutralize Hamas (for it is getting too popular with the Pals and that too fast), Olmert is prodded by Rice/Bush to "come to an understanding" with a moderate Pal leader. Clearly in this "secret talks" the Abbas has the upper hand. He knows that Olmert/Rice do not want it to fail lest Hamas becomes stronger. Abbas cannot too sign on a giveway doc. lest it shows up as weakness and Hamas becomes stronger. Call it "The Hamas Effect" !! Hamas, by its very existence, is helping others to achieve its ends !!!

"hamas fires rockets and olmert expects significant progress??" Most of the Qassams are being fired from Gaza by Islamic Jihad, nothing to do with Hamas. Islamic Jihad is an offshoot of Israel's favourite party of government, Fatah.

He's half out the door and still spinning.

The whole world knows that talking to Olmert would be total waste of time and is simply waiting for him to go. Olmert and Abbas are failed politicians (I won't use the word 'leader'). They should both step down and make way for different faces. Abbas will only be remembered for 'not doing'. Olmert will be remembered for far worse things.

i dont have the link handy, but i saw video of terrorists using ambulances are get away cars. once they turn an ambulance into their use then there goes teh freedom that should be given to them. as for your 2 examples. was she really doing homework?? as i recall her father was wanted and IDF made it clear that anyone inside must leave. why did she stay?? and your boy example -- he was throwing rocks are soliders with guns, what do you expect will happen?? ever see jewish kids throwing rocks at masked men with guns?? by the way IDF dont operate with masks, but the terrorists do. any more examples? i have some for you. how about the 2 year old killed by PALs family dispute cross fire? how about gunmen opening fire at a kids soccer game? i can go on and on, but you dont care.

....focusing on the positive possibilities in this forum. All I ever read here is trash talk.

You obviously are intelligent enough to recognize that it is pretty stupid to hold "secret" talks and then leak the news. Your assumption that Olmert does this out of pure stupidity may very well be true, but more likely there are several agendas at work. (1) temporarily neutralize Barak in his attempts to pull Labor out of the coalition and (2) make sure that Abbas gets plenty of flak from the Hamas hawks for selling out palestinian cause

I just hope that it is not a face saving exercise. 'Secret Diplomacy' has been always a news for the news. Olmert used to be not so secretive in the past when he used to talk about convergency etc.. One can't help wonder if this is not one of his divergencies ? I am sure Olmert knew; with no good news and soon, he will not touch rock bottom but he will rocket the bottom. One other thing. It is in the news today that Olmert will seek coalition with Likud if his coalition with Labour will be in trouble. Will the Likud be agreeing to such coalition if Olmert seeking accommodation with Abass ? Is it possible that Olmert is trying a double act policy that will leave him where he is now which is where he was before. Wish him luck; after all he is the prime minster of Israel.. a man of many hats..

Olmert has to come to the table and discuss the Arab Initiative in toto. And before that extend the ceasefire to the West Bank and then the rockets will stop. And oh yes, stop sending IDF on rampages to terrorise the population under the pretext of looking for terrorists.Just last week they went in with armoured trucks and machine guns and killed a 17 year old girl doing homework in her house and shot a 15 year old boy throwing stones at the trucks,in the stomach and left him to die bleeding.Would not even allow an ambulance to come by.

In return he will still insist on keeping the TA beach.

Just as on the eve of getting trounced in the elections by Ariel Sharon and when his polls showed him to be a certain loser Ehud Barack held secret negotiations in Taba in the hopes that if he surrendered enough of Israel's property and rights, Yassir Arafat may make a deal and allow him to continue to be prime minister, we have Olmert doing the same thing. Here is a man who is supported by all of 3% of the people and he will do anything and give everything of what is not his to give in order to hold onto power. Even going to the extreme of making a deal with another loser who is just as feckless and weak as him (and who has never kept a deal in his life either). It it wasn't so dangerous, it would be unbelievable pathetic.

Even if the diplomatic talks are secret and we don't know the content, this is positive news. You can't dispute this.

we really need a leader - olmert is not capable he has no backbone

Olmert constantly blurts things out and here obviously even when he is doing his best not to blurt things out,he blurts it out. Look people keep it under your hat....OLMERT AND ABBAS ARE HOLDING SECRET TALKS!!!!! But listen please...dont tell anybody!!!!

It is nice to see Olmert doing something intelligent after trying every foolish and idiotic thing that came to mind first. It is, too little, too late, but then what should one expect from a total incompetent?