Official: PA demand for timetable major sticking point in talks

There must also be a timeline for Abbas to shut down the WB terrorists and bomb factories. Tolling further Israeli steps until he does. Or why bother?

As most simpler species are. That's why he consistently shows his racism by blaming others of racism. So sad. Turn away, viper, turn away, it's just an image...

Hello Smadar, and Shanah Tovah. I read the Carter book which contains some inaccuracies, but not serious. When he talks about the awakening of the national consciousness of the Palestinians, he probably means: Under the British Mandate, not in 1947. In any case, this is when it happened. To get a better idea o the state of Palestinians society at the time, I would recommend Khalidi's book "The Iron Cage". D'Amato knows Mandate history even worse than Carter, quite amazingly. A number of crucial mistakes. In any case, his legal opinion is idiosyncratic and not accepted and was ignored by the ICJ. Reading it carefully, I even found the basic error in his analysis. It is best to ignore him, although he will continue to be cited by dreamers who still hope for the Partition Lines. They are dead, as even the Arab League knows. But some dreams die hard for unrealistic people.

always at each others throats, corrupt to the max, racist and so forth, of course they are equal.

"Israelis killed or expelled the moderate..." Ahh, so that's why, by the end of the 80s, the Pals in the disputed territories had the highest standard of living in the Arab world, why Beir Zeit University was a top institution, why Pal media was much more open than it is now, and more. "Iron Fist Occupation Years", you mean when the PLO was regularly attacking, the PLO Charter openly said they didn't want the WB or Gaza, just Israel. "it is foolish to complain about the poverty and lack of order", of course it is. all that happened after Oslo when Arafat took control of the area. The standard of living immediately began to fall. "Israel could never have survived without..." and the Pal terrorists and other Arabs couldn't have survived w/o constant support from Russia, and more money per capita from the UN than any other people on earth yet not building a peaceful civil society. Ibrahim keeps ignoring inner jihad in order to push the real jihad.

1) The Arab League officially ended their war against Israel's existence 2) The AL openly accepting UNSCR242 3) Hamas, Fatah, IJ and other Pal organizations change their founding documents to accept Israel's existence 4) The Pals create laws allowing Jews to live in the nation they want 5) A Pal election with 2/3 of the seats going to parties openly renouncing violence and accepting Israel All before the 2nd Pal majority nation is officially declared. Then we'll see how much they really like timetables. As it is, they was a deadline for a State w/o giving anything, the same pattern as always.

territories when those people, e.g. Abbas, Fayad, are not capable to govern the town of Ramallah yet, have no control over Nablus and Jenin, and are not sufficiently respected by the general public in the territories. If it were not for the IDF these people would not be in power today, and the West Bank would have become another part of Hamastan!

Why must Palestinians in Israel's "mind" deliver and make actions which they can't make, like disarming militias, before Israel is willing to say exactly what it is willing to give? If Israel is not finally ready to speak business all conferences are doomed to fail. Well it is obvious that that is what Israel wants.

D'Amato further states later on that because of change in mass population movements, it is "impractical to return to the "legal" (my quotes) boundaries set forth in the Partition Plan of 1947." He, himself, is saying that given the changes on the ground, that it is impractical to go back to this border of 1947. Therefore, it's reasonable to compromise on the 1967 border if we want to achieve a peaceful settlement in the Middle East soon, for the Israelis and Palestinians.

What happens when it comes time to disarm hamas and jihad??? What happens if it doesnt happen on time?

I dont mind timelines but they must be reciprocal.Israel does an act on time, then the Pals must do so.If one or the other doesnt then the other is not obliged.

Well, the opinion is interesting and somewhat complicated for me given my lack of legal background. However, in D'Amato's opinion this is the border and the UN resolution passed meant it ratified the British proposal to divide the Mandate, but why should this resolution stand if the Arabs rejected it in 1947? He's saying, and this is his opinion, despite their rejection, they're beneficaries nevertheless. In addition, the Mandate expired August 1948, so how can this law be legally binding and the beneficaries protected? It a) was rejected by the Arabs, and b) not addressed by the Arabs for decades. Also, D'Amato states that a border can be changed if there exists an "explicit agreement between Israel and the authorized representatives of Palestine". Well, a number of agreements have been signed by the PLO and Israel, overriding this suggested border of 1947. Furthermore, with regards to any law, an agreement or changes between parties is more important than the actual law. con't P2

OR ISRAEL MUST FACE SANCTIONS AND BOYCOTT. I don't understand what's the use of more "peace conference", tricks, delays, "building confidence steps" to gain more time? Why UN Resolutions are not mentioned at all??

Is it probable, or even possible that this "demand for a timeline" is just another way of saying "We like our terrorists--we love our terrorists--they are our heroes, our martyrs, our way of life, and we have no intention of changing our attitude, so we will continue nagging, whining, groaning, etc. until Israel and the world community gives-in and gives us our state???

The last time that the Palestinians accepted a promise of "final status talks sometime in the future" they ended up standing down their resistance and getting a massive surge of Settlers up their . . . you know where in return. This time they seem to want a fixed schedule for the transition. Olmert seems to want to agree to talk about agreeing to talk about a final status until after the 'unpeace unconference" in November.

disarming miltants after election(he was disarmed in Gaza) to release of Schalit etc.....Abbas hasn;t the power to deliver anything on behalf of the PA (nor is the PA a viable state) and why should Israel make peace with someone who lost half his country or a divided entity at war with itself?

gist of where the 2 state plan is at,even as we speak.Not the armistice line(green line)which is only a truce line,but the Partition Line of 1947,which in the words of well known international lawyer,Antony D'Amato,is the "...first,last,and only legally authorised demarcation of the Israeli-Palestine borders."('Israel's Borders Under International Law',p.3,top of the page).I spoke privately to some international law experts and they concur.

please explain why should you expect any improvement and how would it happen?

dinner with my sons and going to my parents house (bringing for the dinner red wine and pink gladiolas) for the Jewish New Year. I will look into responding to you later. To be continued.

The Arabs of the Land of Israel consistently demonstrate that they don't want, can't make and won't maintain real peace. They do want, however, to weaken Israel by gaining territory without 'giving' anything tangible. They ignore that "possession is nine tenths of the law" and that it's rather the Arabs who should come forward and spell out what they offer Israel in return for what they want. They also pretend not to get it that in this case "land for peace" is both immoral and unworkable. The Arabs had used the 'territories' to threaten, pester and attack Israel before we took these territories in self defence. They continue to plan, prepare and perpetrate genocide against Israel and pretend not to see that it would be suicidal for Israel to concede anything in response to their aggressive threats and action. The Arabs must realize that the only way toward peace is that rather they themselves should offer, accept and be convincingly satisfied with 'painful' territorial compromises.

(a) Hamas are trying to depose Abbas and smash Fatah in Judea and Samaria right now. The only thing preventing repeat of the Gaza scenario is Israel. (b) The Kingdom of Jordan was established as the Arab National Home in Palestine some 85 years ago. It's been that ever since, despite all the talk otherwise. Jordan invaded and occupied the 'West Bank' and its goverments pursued the policy for many years that Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine. (c) There is no need to cite the facts regarding Gaza and Egypt.

Abbas wants Israel to lock itself into automatic retreat mode again.

Abbas is wise to not trust Olmert, or any Israeli leader, at his word as they track history of Israeli lying and not keeping their commitments is a Guinness Record on it own. Stay strong Palestine as God is on your side.

They are too cheap and useless pretty much like ours.

The majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories know of no other life than that of Israeli Occupation. The Israelis killed or expelled the moderate intelligencia during the Iron Fist Occupation Years in the 70's and 80's. Israel has been implementing a program of killing Palestinian society during this time period. Thefore, it is foolish to complain about the poverty and lack of order in the Occupied Territories. We all know, Israel could never have survived without 40 years of American Handouts. Now, Israel can. So perhaps in a few decades, the same can happen for the Palestinians. You Israelis are so warped by your own propoganda...it is utterly pathetic.

west of the Jordan. From time immemorial the Arabs of Western Eretz Yisrael have consistently demonstrated that they are incapable of unaided survival, especially at the national polity level. They constantly kill and steal from each other and lie to themselves, each other and the rest of the world. They never miss any opportunity to make atrocious choices and mistakes and they are incapable of sustaining and providing for themselves; they depend on others for everything. How on earth will they ever make it?

Israel should let Hamas to depose Abbas and smash Fatah in Judea and Samaria, or even help Hamas to do so, in order to make it easier to abolish the PA and wipe it off the world map and consciousness. It will also open the way for the Kingdom of Jordan to take charge as the only viable nation state of all the Arabs of Greater Palestine. Having got rid of the PA, Israel and Jordan should agree on the border between them in Judea and Samaria and maybe cede Gaza to Egypt that would sort it out quite smartly. Everybody, Jews and Arabs, should continue to live in peace where they are and nobody should move from their homes or land. Israelis who would thus become residents of the Kingdom of Jordan should be given rights and conditions like the Arabs in Israel.

or an urban one,it was actually a mix of both.Nor is Carter's position accurate on this point.Not the armistice line but the Partition Line is the definitive line,if there is to be a 2 state.Carter is not an international lawyer.A.D'Amato is & he says that Reds 181 "constitutes the first,last,and only legally authorised demarcation of the Israeli-Palestine borders('Israel's borders Under International Law'p.3)I have spoken privately with international lawyers & they concur.Re: self determination,this was promised to Palestine by the League of Nations.Palestinian discontent began with the Balfour D.of 1917& then the Mandate.When it ended the Palestinians rightly clamoured once again for it.They rejected 181 for that reason.Israel was keen on it.Neverthless,that Partition Line is the only one we have.The armistice line was just that,a temporary truce line.

once a poster speaks for the world then all credibility vanishes ! it is part of meglomania suffered by hitler and napololeon ! stop writing total crap camillo !

Israel, as shown in the past, will delay talks, himmmming and hawwing, creating impossible situation on the ground, asking for things which are impossible to deliver.... ....and of course, they want to gobble more land in the meantime. Israel is doing a great disservice to the Jewish People and the cause of peace. Timetables are critical as they will show people on the ground that MAYBE, FINALLY, ISRAEL will end one of the longest standing military occupations in modern history.

Shanah tova to you.

con't," Strong ideas of nationhood began to take shape among the Arabs only when they saw in increasing numbers of Zionists immigrate to Palestine, buying tracts of land for permanent homes with the goal of establishing their own nation." Clearly, the inception of a separate nation for the Arabs, that is, a Palestinian state only came afterwords, and was not on the agenda until the world Jewish community, established along with the U.N. and Western world, supported a country for the Jews in the Middle East, the historical ancestral land. The Palestinians were predominantly an agrarian society, not as interested in urbanization then. Now Palestinians have become more educated, etc. and there is a greater interest in establishing a state society with infrastructures to support this. (Blair's job) Regarding the demarcation lines, everyone says something else, in Carter's book, he states the 1949 armistice became the demarcation lines which became to be understood as the borders.

heh! The first and practically the only concession required of Palestinians in all past peace treaties has been the renunciation and the halting of violence and even this little thing they havent been able to do. Dragging their feet you say? These people come dragging their weapons of war behind them.

First of all, the region before the British Mandate was under the authority of the imperialist Ottoman Turks. Subsequently after WWI the region became known as Trans-Jordan. In 1922 Jordan separated, and Palestine became the region from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. According to President Jimmy Carter even, in " Palestine Peace Not Apartheid " (2006) he clearly states, p. 56: "Although Christian and Muslim Arabs had continued to live in this same land since Roman times, (of course J.Carter omits that Jews also lived in some numbers throughout history in this same land), THEY HAD NO REAL COMMITMENT TO ESTABLISH A SEPARATE AND INDEPENDENT NATION. THEIR CONCERN WAS WITH FAMILY AND TRIBE AND, FOR THE MUSLIMS, THE BROADER WORLD OF ISLAM." President Carter further states, and this also pertains to your notion that the Arab inhabitants, (today the Palestinians) wanting self determination, he clearly states: " Strong ideas of nationhood began to take shape among the Arabs..con't

For the same reasons that the Hindus who left Pakistan and the Moslems who left India in 1950 ies cannot return. For the same reason that the Greeks who left Izmir and the Turks who left Greece cannot return. When two nations can not live in peace while they are mixed a separation may be the solution. Arabs already cleansed their lands from Jews. Israel does not cleanse its land from Arabs but it just wants to keep it a Jewish state forever.

"Under international law, territories are considered "occupied" only when taken in an act of aggression which does not apply to Israel." This is not true, land taken in an allegedly defensive war is also considered as occupied and must be returned. Your postings contain too many other hysterical exagerations to comment on since my New Year resolution is to not waste my time debating with the intellectually challenged.

interview with Mishal,he says that israel thinks that it can negotiate by isolating & weakening Hamas.Presumably, that is not going to happen.My own view is this:1.Hamas will definitely not accept any mickey mouse offers.They MAY accept the Partition Line of 1947 which legal experts like Antony D'Amato say are the first,last,and only legally authorised demarcation of the Israeli-Palestinian borders('Israel's Borders Under International Law'p.3)

Position A- make no definite concessions, talk about "horizons" and other agreements to agree and kick the can down the road until the US threatens aid being cut off and not using the veto in the Security Council. Position B - if forced to make concessions, do so ingenuously with no intent to implement them by setting conditions which can't be met. These are short-term gains for the Israelis but what are their grand-children going to face when all the Arab neighbours and the Palestinians will have non-nuclear long-range weapons capable of annihilating Israel. The master liar Olmert seems to be oblivious to any future "big picture" and appears to be quite content with his short-term wins.

say that it is not all the arab countries or the u.s.or anyone else but the Palestinians who will decide.I merely stated what Hamas is likely to accept & reject.Re:historical facts.The Arabs rejected the Partition because it was a violation of the League of Nations guarantee of the right of self determination.The League went for the Mandate system instead& Britain,in the end suggested Partition.The question of Arabs attacking israel is a controversial one.Historians & scholars are still divided on that issue.Re: the current situation.A.D'Amato has said that the Partition Line is the first,last,and only legally authorised demarcation of the israeli-Palestine borders('Israel's borders Under International Law).He is a well respected legalist in IL.In 1999,the UNCHR called for self determination on the basis of the 1947 Partition.

..your side of the bargain for as long as possible, preferably never. This is a worn out record - maybe its time Israel got itself a more proactive DJ who is prepared to act in good faith not just talk the talk. peace comes with action, and actions are required on both sides not just the underdog. A 'Pax Judaei' will serve no-one in the long term. If the Israeli Government wants the world to accept it is negotiating in good faith then it must agree to delivery schedules. Demanding of the other side whilst giving nothing in return is a voracious predator of goodwill, Or maybe that;s the strategic policy? Make all the right noises but give not one inch?

be happy that you are in tel aviv, but do not worry not for long. your place is with your shihadi brothers in saudia and we will sent you there.

The Palestinians haves no choice if they want redress of their grievances. What do you think the likelihood is that Israel would give them ANYTHING if it weren't for those attacks?

If a Jew whose ancestors left in the first century has the right to return, why shouldn't a gentile whose ancestors left in 1948?

lakshmi, there won't be a compromising settlement if there is an insistance to even discuss a partition to 1947. No peace agreement has ever suggested this, no American administration, and all the Arab countries have agreed to 1967 borders. There might be a compensation of some Palestinians who've been displaced from the 1947 period, but you must remember that Israel accepted the two-states partition of 1947 by PM David Ben Gurion's government. But then Israel was attacked by all its neighbours and where's Jewish security given this response? Hamas has to be realistic about what has transpired all these decades and look at all the misery the Middle Eastern Jews went through, progroms, fleeing their countries and properties. You can't ignore this tragedy either. Significantly historical Jewish communities in Morocco and Iraq were simply irradicated.

In 1948, Egypt invaded Gaza, ethnically cleansing all Jews and in 1948, Jordan invaded Judea, Samaria and east Jerusalem, ethnically cleansing all Jews. Muslim Jordan destroyed 58 synagogues in Jerusalem. When Israel won the Arab war of aggression in 1967, Jews returned to the areas of their ancestral homeland they had been ethnically cleansed from for 19 years. Anti-Israel propaganda DECEITFULLY calls Jews' legitimate return "occupation". Under international law, territories are considered "occupied" only when taken in an act of aggression which does not apply to Israel. Judea, Samaria and Gaza are not 'occupied territories' according to international law because they were not taken from any foreign sovereign. Jewish ownership of the land, homes and buildings stolen from the Jews in the 1948 Islamic invasion must be restored! Jews have had a continuous presence in physical and spiritual homeland Israel for 4000 years. JUSTICE and HUMAN RIGHTS for JEWS and OTHER NON-MUSLIMS NOW!

Around, and after 1948, one million Jews suffered violent RELIGIOUS Jew cleansing from Arab countries. Arab governments seized the land, farms, homes, hospitals, schools, businesses and bank accounts of the Jews. Most Jewish refugees fled to Israel where the religious terror war against Jews NEVER stops. Cruel Global war is waged to subjugate every nation under Islamic sharia law - it is unacceptable to Islamists for Jews to have self-rule in TINY Israel. The 1948 Jewish refugees and their descendants who make up about half of Israel's Jewish citizens MUST be compensated in land and finances! http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/

A timetable where a duration is set for each activity or task can be set. For example x number of weeks to disarm Fatah, x number of weeks to disband x number of named outposts and theh if these are done then another step depent on the success of the first one. (If you guessed I am a project manager you re correct)

Smadar, you are a good samaritan, and I see your point, but you have to understand that Israel is not working with normal people; it's working with terrorists, thugs, and pathological liars. "Reassurances" or "commitment" means nothing, zero, zilch. What we need is PROOF. Instead of a timetable, have things that are measurable. For example, the security forces of the PA and Israel can each provide an estimate of the amount of illegal weapons and explosives that the terrorists have, let's say in tons. The average of those numbers is the performance indicator. For every ton of weapons the terrorists hand over to Israel, Israel will remove one checkpoint, or give up one kilometer of territory. That way progress is measurable.

Like when are they going to fulfill any of their obligations? To date they have not. Let's start with the PLO Charter. When does that get amended? It hasn't yet, inspite of the lies. How about ending terrorism and incitement? Again when?

When will Abbas be in full control of gaza and prevent all weapons smuggling and rocket attacks against israel?

What Abbas should insist on is a different kind of timetable. He should ask for a timetable lets say 10 years from now so the international community can facilitate the return of emigrant Jews and their offspring?s to their own countries in Europe, the US and other parts of the Middle East so by 2017 only Jews who could prove that their ancestors were in Palestine on the eve of the British mandate of 1918 could stay. Meanwhile Palestinian refugees are encouraged to return to their country and claim their homes and lands. Simultaneously the US and the EU should put together a massive aid package to compensate the Palestinians for decades of supporting the illegal colonisation of Palestine by Jews.

re run of the Oslo agreement is deluding themselves! They may accept the Partition Line of 1947,plus East J. as capital & the right of refugees to return.

Without firm agreements on borders, Jerusalem, refugees, etc. and without a clear timetable the U.S. sponsored conference is a waste of time. Abbas, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt are right. The purpose of the conference should be to provide international support and guarantees for the agreement. If the "agreement" is simply a bunch of vague statements there is no point in meeting. Of course, Olmert and Bush want exactly that...a photo op.

obligations? israel's broken promises date back more than 60 years!

When this is all done- whatever that means - Abbas will retire from politics to his home in Palestine- a/k/a Jordan. He will have nothing to do with any of the implementation of any agreements. If suicide bombers blow up Israelis after Israel signs aways its land, he will simply not answer the telephone call or the knock on the door. However one views it, the future of Israel with Olmert & crew in charge is a greater danger to Israel. Contending with Arab agression is one thing - 1948-1967-1973-2006 + all the years in between of terror, but with Jews who deny Jewish history, are willing to sign away Jewish land and at the same time hold authority to do so, the furture is very dim indeed.

I think everyone needs to keep that in mind. Both parties NEED to be treated of equals in order to achieve peace. The demands of the Palestinians carry water & NEED to be heavily considered. Otherwise, casting Israel as a Racist, Apartheid regime, will be all too easy.

I agree, Israel, for its own sake, needs a change in leadership. Something different for the Apartheid type policies of old, that are laden with racism. Arabs & Jews are equals... remember that everyone!

It is better to have a general timeline stipulated because how can you, for example, give a date when the IDF and settlers would start withdrawing from the West Bank when you have continually armed militias dictating to the PA the agenda? The Israeli Government must have concrete reassurances that the Palestinians have a security apparatus under the PA government which adheres to the two-states commitment. So far the parties of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other factions, have not indicated this commitment.

Why is Abbas demanding strict timetable? Because it would mean, that he is not obliged to do anything: neither to collect weapons, nor to stop incitement, nor to ban terrorist mafias. Abbas wants Israel only to compromise. Since Oslo times, Palestinians proved that their word is not the word of men. It doesn't worth a penny. They violated every single agreement they signed. I believe, that the agreement between Olmert and Abbas should be dependent on the implementation of the roadmap. It should give the political horizon - and not anything else. If the Palestinians cannot do what they promised to do, than they don't deserve freedom, because free person is the master of his word, while the one with mentality of slave promises and doesn't fulfill. This is the mentality of the PLO and Fatah. They are liars and until they prove otherwise, no agreement with them should be signed and specially no agreement with timetable.

Every "deal" has called for disbanding terror groups and disarming them.....a step which has NEVER been even remotely followed. Give me a fixed timetable for disarming fatah,hamas,prc,islamic jihad, al aqsa martyrs hehe brigade etc etc etc. Give me a fixed timetable for a declaration of accepting Israel. oh yeah, none of these things are possible as they go against the arab dream of the river to the sea..

...the hole in his head is coming

Agreed upon specific details along with the actual specific performance for each step along the way towards peace is the only way to go.Failure by the PA to go beyond promises of real efforts on the road to peace must not happen again.However,continued rocketing of Israeli territory will place a lock on any further efforts to bring about a peaceful solution.

He has no power, no support. Whatever Israel gives him will be immediately distributed to his cronies, like in the good 'ol Arafat days, and he wont deliver squat anyways. At this point, he is feathering his nest before his complete decline from the world stage. Serioulsy folks, does anyone really think that it will be him, of all people, who will finally bring everyone (Hamas, Fatah, Isl. Jihad, Israel) together in harmony and establish a Palestiniann state?

It's far better to come away from a "peace talk" with just generalities. This way nobody can hold the parties to the nonexistent details. Israel has no problem discarding specific agreements, but it is better if they never get specific in the first place.

I think for the last 30 years Israel has looked to the Pals to see if they would stop rocket attacks from Gaza. Even though Pals say that those attacks are "not in the interest of Palestine" not a single arrest has ever occurred or a single launch averted by the Pals. Let us start with that then we can talk time lines.

has he not been around for the past so many years? has he not seen how israel keeps dragging it's foot or reneging or always finding excuses ? the promises and wooing by israel he will find are nothing but a decoy to buy more time.

like he needs a hole in his head!

FOR HISTORICAL REALITY ! ALL TALKS WITH ARABS HAVE BEEN A WASTE OF TIME FOR 90 YEARS ! NEW ELCTIONS ARE NEEDED FOR POLITICIANS WHO CAN ADD UP 2+2!

Timeschedule problems,only windows dressing to mask Israeli suicidal concessions

Israel does not want peace and are dragging their heels as they are prone to do. This is nothing new.