Netanyahu asks world to reject Goldstone findings

...as about Calleys, I was not defining big criminals/killers from smaller ones; I just used Mark of Lewiston's mention of Calley in comparing US soldiers with Israeli ones (Calleys), an unnecessary, extreme and biased comparison by an outsider, to me, who lives in both places and had children/nephew soldiers in both places! In fact you write yourself in your #71 mostly the same as what I said to MoL!

RE:I said nothing about what was or was not binding and did not mention the General assembly or the UNSC And I replied that condemnations of Israel are mostly from the GN. They are based on politics and not facts. They are non binding though meaningless. These are the condemnations you whine that Israel doe not care for.

Yes I did read your posts (and again) and yes both israeli and US soldiers face the same situations and the same type of assymetric warfare.And the results are often the same. contrary to your beliefs I am convinced that in both cases (IDF or US) civilians are not killed deliberately.

West Bank, Both sides need a vacation from all of the bickering and fighting. It just might help if the US military moved from Iraq into the West bank to take up peace keeping until everyone could step back and get a clear picture of what is going on. Settlements would need to stop while peace keeping was in progress. Both sides have been at this so long, no one has any perspective.

There is a distinct divide between those who have read the report (a dreary 575 pages) and those who's opinions are based upon nothing but speculation.

William Calley ordered unresisting women and children in a ditch. Someone in the IDF ordered the bombing of a clearly marked hospital. William Calley personally murdered an infant. Someone in the IDF ordered attacks on UN shelters and warehouses. The crimes of William Calley were individual actions by an individual leader. The pattern of behavior in Cast Lead makes it clear that those war crimes conducted were conducted by orders of a high level, if not the highest level. Go back, read the accounts of the battle of Jenin 7 years ago and of the Second Lebanon War and Cast Lead. There has been a MAJOR shift in the IDF's approach towards fighting terrorists.

I say you have read the report. So have I. The report is actually a mixed bag. While anyone watching the ISRAELI coverage of Cast Lead could see that Israel was waging war against the infrastructure of Gaza, the homes, businesses, schools, police, government buildings, hospitals, etc. It was not obvious that civilians were being targeted. The report makes it clear that there was a MIX of actions by israeli soldiers and units. Some were careful, some warned apartment buildings, some refused to bomb buildings with people on the roofs. Others were ruthless. One thing that was not obvious during the war was that there was a great schism in the attitudes and actions of IDF units and men. Some would occupy a farm before moving on. Others did as much devastation as possible before leaving. Some went to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, others seemed be indifferent at best. The report seems to indicate this was a matter of who was in command, and what their superiors desired

Until you do and stay on topic do not ecxpect a reply.

Then in which UN organism was Israel condemned. The only binding resolutions from the UNSC made demands on both sides.

Goldstone took most of his info from anNGO created and operated by Hamas (taqweh or something like that). The Obama administration found this report unfair. I personnaly trust IDF investigations the same way I do US or French ones. Coming to haaretz censorship, they often do it to me. They don't seem to like fact based arguments and obvioulsy prefer outrage, cliches and name calling.

Major General Antonio Taguba, who carried out the investigation of Abu Ghraib ordered by General Sanchez, claimed he was blocked from investigating who ordered the torture at Abu Ghraib and that the American military had unpublished photographs that show even worse torture (Democracy Now report, 19 June 2007). Abu Ghraib was far worse than most Americans realize. For example, "The number of women raped by American forces in Abu Ghraib jail has gone largely unreported" (Chehab, p. 110). But of course you will go right on holding the whole sordid episode and aftermath up as somehow a great example of American virtue and model for the rest of the world to follow.

Australia has just had the pleasure of criminal activity in the WEst Bank exposed for us all to see, just as Goldstone and B'Tselem have told the story for years. If these criminals behaved like this in any other country they would be jailed - shooting down three Palestinians and getting off was nice for the settler wasn't it but is part of why the world has turned off Israel and will not listen to Bibi's maundering nonsense. That is the problem when the internet and foreign TV crews and others expose the truth.

The censor didn't let me in umpteen times... possibly more than yours...even when writing about the weather...or saying Shabbat shalom.

I have tried 4 times. The censor doesn't want you to know what my response is. It must violate some IDF rule for free speech.

'The world' has given Goldstone a mandate to investigate, and a call to reject the result is baseless. The only 'wrong' aspect of the case is Israel's refusal to cooperate with the UN team.

Not only "arab oil money buys a lot of votes" but alsow actual votes belonging to 22 Arab countries, other muslim countries as well as antycemitic communist countries.

yet Bibi never insulted American soldiers. No Israeli would EVER do that! –S The IDF harassed the US Marines in Lebanon in 1983. The issue was significant enough to warrant a letter from the Marine Commandant to Sec of Def Weinberger. See http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-21542.html Hamas, which originally bragged about the disasters the IDF will encounter if going to war, and then hid among their civilians, shooting from among them, are a perfect army? So, how does one fight such cowards? And if they can`t fight the IDF, which is quite understandable, why do they continue their stupid "resistance"? ~ Because they found in Iran their raison d`etre. S Israel controls the only international border that Gaza has, the maritime coast. Israel controls who may enter, who may leave, what may be imported and exported. If you were kept in such a prison would you not resist? Iran is not what motivates them. Hamas was created not by Iran. If Iran were to become a friendly nation tomorrow, Hamas would still be in Gaza. It is the creation of Israel. Didn’t the Stern gang and Irgun operate among civilians in their terrorist war with England? The means available determine the tactics.

Only condemnations from the UNSC matter and in that perspective you are wrong. The GN condemnations of Israel are frequent as the arab oil money buys a lot of votes but they are meaningless and non binding.- Philippe I do not see how I am wrong. I said nothing about what was or was not binding and did not mention the General assembly or the UNSC. I would appreciate it if you did not rewrite my posts to suit the argument that you want me to make. It is not Arab money that forms the voting bloc.

I've tried responding to S and DZ. Neither post was allowed - too fact filled I guess. The whole point from Goldstone and from the Obama admin is that Israel should do a public and transparent investigation, not whitewash and justify everything. Now that I've said it, I'm sure to be censored as its against IDF censorship rules.

Only condemnations from the UNSC matter and in that perspective you are wrong. The GN condemnations of Israel are frequent as the arab oil money buys a lot of votes but they are meaningless and non binding.

By comparing to Abu Graib you are mixing different issues. I was talking about civilians dying while ennemies are bombed. The US investigate allegations of crimes but does it it self and would never accept a foreign entity to do it. So does Israel. The only difference is that you believe the US reports but not the Israelis.

Perhaps you need to examine your own "logic"; do you actually believe that the disproportionate censure of Israel by the United Nations corresponds to the greater magnitude of its wrongdoing? Even you could not say that with a straight face. Adam LeBoer writes in his book Complicity with Evil that in a typical year Israel was censured by the UN almost as much as Congo and Sudan combined (I am not at home at the moment, but can provide the exact citation later today). And the idea, bandied about so often on Talkback, that it does not matter if Israel is condemned disproportionately, is invalid; impartiality in the application of law is the chief basis of its legitimacy in the modern world.

a veto is in the offing,as mrs.rice has hinted.thank you once again america.

Israel has been more often condemned by the United Nations and other international organizations than all other nations taken together" casts doubt on the report, etc- Der Zweifler I take issue only with the logic of your statement above. If a habitual criminal is convicted and jailed more than anyone else, is the justice system suspect? I could agree that the UN’s actions are often flawed and decisions manipulated, it is after all a political body. However I think here that the issue is the report, which Israel attempted to block by refusing to cooperate. The effort continued and the results are what they are. If Israel has proof contrary to the report it should make that known.

Since the report criticizes both Hamas and Israel, and both Israel and Hamas criticize the report as being unfair, it's probably a damned good report.

Netanyahu is out of his mind if he thinks for a minute the world would embrace his position over Goldstone's especially since people are already outraged by the IDF"s destruction and killing in Gaza. No, this is the end of the line for Israeli offficials and their commanders. Dutch

I am anti-Netanyahu and pro-freeze settlements, yet Bibi never insulted American soldiers. No Israeli would EVER do that! But you, you are insulting outright the entire IDF because of some Calleys of ours, just like yours. Since when do you know of perfect armies, without Calleys? Which? The British? The French? I don't want to mention the other big European nation... Hamas, which originally bragged about the disasters the IDF will encounter if going to war, and then hid among their civilians, shooting from among them, are a perfect army? So, how does one fight such cowards? And if they can't fight the IDF, which is quite understandable, why do they continue their stupid "resistance"? Nay, more, much more, they will "never" recognize Israel. Never a full peace, only hudnas. Why? Because they found in Iran their raison d'etre. But I digress... It is all about insults... Yours, not ours!

like the fact that the goldstone report is actually an in depth "validation" of what the world had already concluded about the idf's actions during the gaza offensive. many of the idf's excesses, if not most, were easily evidenced in viewing the aftermath. and here you are, oblivious to all, suggesting to the world that it reject a report that outlines what it already knows? this would be funny, if it weren't so sickeningly pathetic!

I would note that the Obama Administration did something the Bush Administration never did. It asked that Israel act responsibly and investigate and prosecute, using its own institutions. Not that I believe for a second that would change the IDF culture of impunity. But it is a ray of light from a US government that would never have been imagined during the prior 8 years, light lighting a candle against the vast darkness of a cave.

I suggest you try to attain a level of moral reflection that allows you to examine your own country critically and objectively rather than draw specious and self-serving distinctions with other countries that do not in fact hold up to critical examination. Chomsky writes that "the United States is a leading outlaw state, totally unconstrained by international law" (What We Say Goes, 2007, p. 1). He in no way lets Israel (or Britain or Turkey or Saudi Arabia) off the hook, but unlike you he has the integrity to recognize that one-sided criticism of Israel like yours has as its real function "to exonerate the United States of responsibility" (Perilous Power, 2009, p. 68).

do you honestly believe that israel enjoys occupation? I am sure that israelis want lasting peace with an honest partener and not the one who is waiting for the right moment to destroy them.

Is it just me but has anyone else noticed the deafening silence in response to Netanyahu's request? Is it perhaps they too, like the rest of us, were sickened and appalled by what they saw and read at the time? Or is it because they cannot the credibility and character of Judge Goldstone? Or is it due to the reports massive documentation? Either way war crimes and crimes against humanity on such a massive scale have to be challenged and condemned,and no country, Israel included, is exempt.

For political reasons, the US does not go up the chain of command when it politically can avoid it. Rather, it tries the lowest level of perpetrator possible. But it does investigate and try individual cases. If it went up the chain on of command, lots more might be prosecuted. But the US operates under the principle that carrying out an illegal order is a crime, while giving an illegal order is a mistake, possible a criminal mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. Hence at Abu Ghraib, only the enlisted people got tried and went to jail. General Karpinski lost her job for not noticing something hidden from her and the people who ordered and oversaw the abuses walked free. It is not a perfect system. But the enlisted people know that carrying out illegal and immoral orders gets them in trouble. I will not go into every case. You might want to look at my post 18 also. The difference is that Israel always avoids even the appearance of investigation whenever it can. The US doesn't.

"get used to the proud jew who fights for his existance". By inflicting brutality on the Palestinians? Where does that leave Israel on the moral ground, oh light unto the nations? There is no excuse for Israel's brutal occupation and dismissal of international and humanitarian law. When it is legitimally brought to book, it wriggles embarassingly on the world stage expecting everyone to excuse its behaviour. Think again.

I find posts like yours increasingly surreal. International humanitarian law has suffered from "highly selective enforcement," to put it mildly (Habermas, Divided West, 2006, p. 28). In fact, there has been an almost complete "failure of implementation" at all levels, primarily because sovereign nations simply don't want it enforced against them and the UN ogbliges them (Robertson, Crimes Against Humanity, 2006, p. 41). That you and so many here should invoke international law every two seconds and act as if it does not matter if application is impartial and biased is ludicrous; both modern international and national law derive their very legitimacy from the norm of impartiality (Eisenberg, Nature of Common Law, 1988, pp. 8-9). Furthermore, the fact that "Israel has been more often condemned by the United Nations and other international organizations than all other nations taken together" casts doubt on the report, etc. (Laqueur, Oxford U. Press, 2006, p. 8).

So how come so many kids died in Irak and Afganistan. US troops clearly understand the situation Israel is facing as they face the same.

Beleive it or not....ignoring your faults don't make them go away. It makes them worse! If the world ignores the Goldstone Report then, god forbid, how do you think Israel would act in their next war.

Talk about chutzpa. He tells the world to take a flying leap, but wants it to endorse his head-in-the-sand approach to all problems? Give me a break!

the Unites States of Amnesia

The Palestinians have been living under constant terror for years. Sureøly, they can criticise Israel? And we can support them? Right, Eran?

jews were always isolated. we were always counting on our brothers .the only time we had "friends "is after we counted our victims. the world is used to the ghetto jew. get used to the proud jew who fights for his existance.

I remember also when Tripoli was animal / Fish sanctuary. Hesbulloh and religious factions in Lebanon (C|outesy of Iran and Syria) Scarred your country and destroyed it's status in the world. Beirut in the early sixties was a paradise. I am truly saddened to view it now. This world has condemned Israel without realising there are two sides to this coin.

I'd also prefer to listen to what this man has to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iD8vRobh7E&feature=PlayList&p=90F642C6C0F97AA2&index=9

....but the Israeli people have never found themselves in such an "identity crisis" as they do today, tired, desillusioned and more and more isolated from the rest of the world. A "soul-searching" trip might be urgently needed....

... with the evidences brought by the Report, the evidences that neither him nor the IDF took care to counter. Either the Israeli PM is judging the "world leaders" by himself or he thought that the public "lesson" he gave Swedish and Norwegian gov'ts is sufficient for instilling love to the country smaller than New Jersey, stronger than the US and the world champion in "chantage affectif" through victimhood and Judeo-Christian values.

The World is listening. Palau, Federated States of Micronesia, Fiji, Christmas Island - maybe also Tonga and Swaziland. Used to be a lot more supporters in Latin America, but unfortunately these days they have all gone democratic. Shah was good, but he gone. South Africa used to be such a good friend, but alas things gone very downhill there lately... maybe Columbia and Russia will rally?

how would you react if your house was attacted by a mob?

not even the marshall islands... but for susan rice... saying america thinks the report is unbalanced. wake up israel... youre in the dock. bluster wont help your cause. bibi asking the world to reject the report is like bin laden being allowed to address the un.

and the world jews and israel. all of you ready to condemn israel look up your history books, and the wars you are so proud off.

Eran, many States suffer from terror. But are the root causes of such?

yes the palestinians live under the terror of hamas=IRAN

israel has been through more difficult times and came out a winner

... in Gaza also live in terror of Hamas... ... so actually they are between the devil-and-the-deep-blue-sea...

I would call what rained from the skies on Gaza in January 2009 terror. I would call the petty, inhuman blockade terror. The Palestinians certainly know what terror is like.

In war crimes the perpetrators stand alone. Who would like to soil themselves by defending child killers? "Let the bells of freedom ring, from the Jordan river to the ...."

T'was Rabbis that past out pamphlets inciting troop violence and Rabbis that instigate settlements and outposts. They also helped elect a fanatical government. Are these the commanders Goldstone is after?

Only the guilty would use these measures to hide the truth,even to the extent of blaming other states of committing the same crimes to divert attention from their own criminal actions. Other articles in Haaretz were use by Israel and its supporters to draw attention away from Israel, but the report by Goldstone was always about Operation Cast Lead not any other conflict.

There will alawys be a 'Before Cast Lead' and "After Cast Lead" in Israeli history. You just don't kill children in camps and get away with it. 437 children born, raised and slaughtered without ever having known freedom. Is that Zionism, that that is OK? What if it would have been jewish children? Have you no shame what-so-ever? This "world" that Bibi is addressing has agreed that there should be no hidding place for war criminals and YES that include Zionist war criminals. This is "After Cast Lead"..welcome to reality.

Nobody can seriously deny that Israel committed war crimes against the Palestinian people. Israel has been in violation of International Law for over 40 years not to mention binding UNSC resolutions. Simply put Israel likes to ignore the law and Resolutions that they don't like yet wants the one's they do support to be enforced. What Hypocrisy but that's the Israeli government for you. The Obama Administration should be ashamed if they support Israel for their crimes in Gaza.

Netanyahu insults every American who ever wore a uniform and resisted the impulse to kill kids or other civilians in combat. And to every American officer who didn't order WP on civilians and hospitals and schools. You don't have to become William Calley to fight Hamas or even al Qaida. Neither does the IDF.

You have gone to live in a country that has suffered terror, even if it hasn't touched the town you have chosen to live in. The British have suffered terror. So have the Italians, Germans, Irish to cite but a few European examples ..... for lack of space we won't even start with the list of African, Asian and Arab countries that have suffered terrorism on a massive scale. In short Israel is not unique in having suffered terror. George Mitchell, known for having brought the Irish and the British out of the trenches and up to the table, has a pretty good idea of what he is talking about. And so, believe it or not - take a look at his bio - has Judge Goldstone.

Even if one is living under terror, there are some acts which are just too far out of line for any nation to indulge in. But then again, zionists believe Israel is exempt from the rules that apply to everyone else .

Bibi, habibi, its' too late now. Accept it and you shall be absolved man.

although murder is mureder no matter which way you do it, the difference here is that the yemeni are not killing another race so to speak, like israel is killing pals, who ARE legitimate inhabitants.

If this continues, then it will rather be the Palestinians, who will have to show compassion with Israel than the other way around...:) P.S. Any kind of statement by a U.S. ambassador to the UN/U.S president/U.S. politician will be taken with a healthy grain of salt by the rest of the world.... ....most people are very well aware of the "special circumstances" on the other side of the Atlantic.

what a joke

no one has a right to kill and steal and claim that gawd said they could....one law for all...the zio enetity is in gross violation of int law, morals and comon sense

In a report in the BBC, Yemen killed more than 80 people in an air raid combating Shia rebels today. Most of those killed were women, children and old people, according to the report. I wonder if there will be a commission of inquiry as to whether the gvt of Yemen is guilty of war crimes? Of course not, they are not Jewish.

If you accept the right of Israel to exist, you must understand that they are fighting terror. Unless you have lived under terror, you have NO right to criticize.

What does Israel want from the UN? Israel must decide whether the UN is a legitimate supranational body to be respected or is it of no worth and should be ignored? Israel wishes to ignore UN resolutions it finds inconvenient and ignore reports such as the Goldstone report but then wants the UN to take actions against Iran with regard to the nuclear issue. Such a contradiction is also seen with regard to Russia where weapons are sold to Georgia that are then used against Russia but Israel then asks Russia not to sell S-300 missiles to Iran. Such contradictions in foreign policy are noted by others and as a result Israeli diplomacy is bought into question.

Do I understand you correctly Bibi? Are you asking the world to reject the entire report, even the parts that find Hamas guilty of war crimes? Or, is it only the parts that find Israel guilty that you have a problem with? And how do sleep at night when you blow off what the "world" day in and day out and now all of sudden you are asking "the world" to reject the report (one led not only by a Jew but a self-defined Zionist and lover of Israel). It seems like you're in a corner.

Let us count How Many Will!

It makes no sense to come to peace agreements with the arabs as when they are broken Israel will be criticised for retaliating. It is easier to occupy and control the population from within. The palestinians will not keep agreements as their economy is based on being paid for violence.

That is what Netanyahu really wants or a public acknowledgment that the conventions don't apply to Israel so long as it's killing people in Gaza. No rules apply to Israel. Why not just withdraw Netanyahu? Do something honorable for once in your life.

This makes it official: the Obama administration is MORE pro-Israel than Bush's was. Make me wonder if that all the "Obama is a Muslim / Obama is a Christian" crap was just to cover up his true loyalties.

I'd prefer to keep the Goldstone findings and reject Israel.