Thousands march in Tel Aviv against loyalty oath bill

It can not take any of their rights - they don't have too many.

I was there and I can tell you that I was surprised to see so many families there. Demonstrations are generally more attended to by the 20-ish people that worry for their future and have more free time on their hands than they are by busy working people with families. But luckily in this event there where people from all places in Israel (many travelled for hours by bus to be there) and with all different backgrounds. In the university I didn't hear a word about this demonstration from my professors, so no worries there. I sincerely hope that people will start to realise that this is not a regular loyalty pledge, as it would be a loyalty pledge to the declaration of independence (because of the lack of a constitution). It is a loyalty pledge to the jewishness of the state. And because this bill was drafted by lieberman and shass, I don't think that I will agree to what they see as 'jewish'. Besides that I wonder what will be considered to be 'disloyal'. As long as nobody sincerely answers the question what is 'jewish' and what is 'disloyal' nobody can predict the effect of this draft bill, and thus nobody should agree with it.

And the Israelis are very friendly to Arabs? What do you expect actually? Especially all the troubles they have with Israel.

If you are treated like a second class citizen of Israel. Is rather difficult to love Israel - or not Israel as a country but as a nation only for jewish people (The Jewish Israel) .

.....as a place for jewish people to settle, they did not meann kick all the others ouit.

Both sides have been in the wrong for so long, committed so many atrocities that I would support or fight for neither.* *Palestinians, however, have long been the pawn and whipping boy for both sides.

Jews are allowed to lie, cheat, and steal from goyim, but not from other Jews. How is this any different?

Second to the worst is OK.

Like Britain, soon to be governed by Sharia law, like France, which would not defend against the Nazis, and like Switzerland,which was pro nazi.

are you kidding me??? maybe you should go back and read the history of these places. much much much worst then Israel will ever be

This is exactly what I've been saying too. It's very ironic. The substance of the argument is rarely addressed. Rather, the apologists just point to the world's other racist and oppressive regimes and complain that Israel is being singled out (also not true - just read the coverage on Iran or North Korea in any American newspaper)

. no mention of democracy ... " it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel;” The 'prophets of Israel' are a religious notion = theocratic. http://wp.me/pDB7k-D6

Or any other country, for that matter. Every country has its own history, its own problems to confront, and the local environment is important in how this development evolves. It is not true that democracies and religions are mutually exclusive. Look at England.

the point of democracy is equality of citizens under the law. the point of democracy is to protect the individual against the tyranny of the state. "Inclusion" does not apply to those who ask for permission to enter the state or to those who ask for citizenship. democracy is essentially for the protection of citizens and to a lesser extent to residents. states, as sovereigns, have an absolute right to legislate their laws of immigration and citizenship. furthermore, israel does not have a state religion any more than the us does. muslims, christians and others have absolute freedom to practice their religion. your only valid point is regarding the "relocation" of cities and their citizens. it is precisely because they are citizens that such a plan is anti-democratic. they cannot be deprived of their citizenship without their free consent.

All the European countries have separation of the State and the Church - they protect the rights if all the Citizens, regardless of their religion. Israel should take this as an example of a real democracy.

Once in a while, we might get Natallie (aka Yaakov Sullivan) to speak the truth. But in response to his/her latest lie: UK, Sweden, Denmark, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Thailand, Indonesia, Norway - ALL are officially designated by their religions!

With the stranglehold of the orthodox on religion, non orthodox jews are prevented from practicing reform and conservative branches of Judaism.

They were good indeed, compared to what the very civilized west was doing to non-believers! And how everywhere else in the world people were treating those of different faiths! It is actually the Arabs that started the whole coexistence theories of modern times, true, they don't comply with today's standards, but hell yea they were on the top of the world, unlike the fascist state of Israel today, at the very bottom!

People like you always bring up the "dhimmi status" argument to prove an asinine point of yours. The Jews and Muslims were treated just as horribly under Christian rule, probably even worse, than the Jews were treated under Muslim rule. Wasn't it the Ottoman Empire who rescued and ferried Jews, along with Muslims, back to Muslim lands when the conditions became completely unbearable for both Jews and Muslims alike in Christian lands?

So you think it's now permissable to make arabs dhimmis

You mean the majority is Jewish and so can make any laws they like? This is the opposite of a democracy. Maybe when the Democrats had a fillibuster proof majority, they should have outlawed the Republican party, or better yet, forced them to swear loyalty to the Democrats.

Our loyalty oath is to the Constitution. Yours is racist.

I thought they were removed in 1948, what is new now? is it the sudden realization guilt?

Transfering their land to government ownership makes it OK Patriot? You're kidding right?

Jake - Leibermen proposes redrawing the border to include some Arab majority areas of Israel in a future Palestinian state. This is hugely different to nationalising their land or kicking them out of their homes

What the loyalty oath does is to tell those who are not Jewish, that they have no place in the "democratic " state of Israel. Most Islamic states that you refer to(especially Turkey and Egypt), the constitution is not a sharia law,so your point is not made,but since you like to be compared to these countries, consider this: Egypt is an Islamic country,but it is not called as such,does not apply the Sharia Law,and does not require naturalised citizens to swear allegiance to an Islamic Egypt, yet no one doubt that it is an Islamic state. Get it now?

What the loyalty oath does is to tell those who are not Jewish, that they have no place in the "democratic " state of Israel. Most Islamic states that you refer to(especially Turkey and Egypt), the constitution is not a sharia law,so your point is not made,but since you like to be compared to these countries, consider this: Egypt is an Islamic country,but it is not called as such,does not apply the Sharia Law,and does not require naturalised citizens to swear allegiance to an Islamic Egypt, yet no one doubt that it is an Islamic state. Get it now?

Those who are not jewish could be part of Israel democracy . They have to pledge loyalty to the jewish democratic state. nOTHING ELSE. By different means France is also explaining newcomers that they have to accept and be loyal to the principles of secular state that "hates" religions. Any religion by the way. Why should a pyus Muslim pay respect to that nation. ? However if he wants to be included , he MUST PAY LOYALTY TO SOMETHING THAT HIS CONSCIOUSNESS DOES NOT ALLOW TO. See the difference??? I dont.

Erdogan's party in power in Turkey has openly stated that they will be moving to remove secularism from Turkey after the next election if they win

Because as jew in a democratic state i have the right to think and say that israel is not a democratic state,no?, if israel was a democratic state u could not obligate people to have ur same ideas.

I think everybody should take the oath or renew it, non jewish AND jewish alike

The idea that Americas elementary schools is filled with red blooded patriots is comforting, but most of those kids don't even understand the words they are reciting. By the time they are old enough to understand in higher grades, the pladge is no longer recited. Actually. it makes no sense to require loyalty oaths from people who don't understand them. It makes less sense to coerce loyalty oaths from people under any circumstances. There is no democracy in the world that includes a religion in its name.

What ever happened to the 'huddled masses yearning to breath free'? As long as they're from Europe?

If each person brought 10 friends, the next protest would have not 15,000 but 150,000 people.

or something better.

You are sure welcome in SA & UAE if you're a jew... As llong as you don't hold an israeli passport.

Nobody has to convert to judaism to become an israel citizen. The state is jewish menaing with it that the public sphere is jewish. Muslim Christian citizens are equal right citizens. The state will always have a jewish majority. What is the problem with that? What fascism are you talking about.? All have civic liberal rights.

Those disposessed poor victims have left cemetaries full of dead INNOCENT JEWS. The country is scattered with tens of thousands of people, maimed for life. Their crime ?? They went to a mall, they boarded the wrong bus. Oh, and they went to get a coffee, or a pizza, only to be blown away, in a nanosecond. Don't lecture us, Victor, about *common decency* when pregnant Jewish women are used for target practice. The lowlife thugs you defend have no devency in their lexicon. If anything, Israel has exhibited unnecessary compassion to an enemy so brutal and devoid of decency. You side with the aggressor, against the true, innocent victim. One day, this aggressor will be crushed into submission, for all the tremendous damage they have caused. Then, and only then, can we finally have the long-sought peace we yearn for. Bibi is only partially the answer, However, he's not forceful enough to stand up to the Arab thuggery. Perhaps Lieberman will sort it all out. You all can scream fascism, we will do all to PROTECT the Jewish people, from the likes of a brutal enemy, and the likes of people like you.

62 years ago Israel was not blessed with the brilliant mind, diplomatic eloquence and oratorial skills of Mr. Lieberman.

Yes, they did, even though the first 15 years or so Israel treated Arabs as third class citizens. So what has changed? The men ruling Israel, Lieberman and Netanyahu need to create an internal enemy which must be oppressed to save the nation. What better than the Demographic Bomb, threatening the Jewish State? The last 62 years of Israeli history are insignificant in the face of the need by Lieberman and Netanyahu to create hysteria over the Demographic Bomb, and the need to demand Loyalty to the Jewish (only) State. One Nation! One People! No Arabs! Got it?

near nonstop terrorism, arab war after arab war. Its time Israel stop this self defeating attitude and become a strong Jewish nation. Its time to stop being afraid to make the non Jewish world who will hate us no matter what upset at us. When a country like the mighty U.S.A defends itself it doesnt apologize to anybody. Am Yisroel Chai. Od avinu chai. We are begining to wise up and are no longer willing to be the abused step children of the world. Chazak ve'amatz!

Israel transfered its Jews out of Gaza? Uprooted families? Did you know that Gaza has housed Jews for thousands of years? Its a true Jewish homeland. Its funny how you loud silly righteousness only works one way.

Which Arab state loves Jews? 0 Israel sees what the Muslims are doing to the U.S. population and they don't want to get caught up in it. Japan segregates. Korea segregates. Ireland segregates.

Israel did not suddenly become a racist state, it has always been one. The whole Zionist take-over of Palestine was based on a racist concept.

israel is the historic homeland of the jewish people. the sole purpose of the foundation of the state is to provide a refuge to the jewish people after two thousand years of exile and persecution. zionism is the assertion by the jewish people, headed by the founders, that jews have a right to national self-determination. every sovereign has the right to determine laws of citizenship. israel is both jewish in its ethos and democratic. the pledge required by the united states requires, as has been posted by many, that individuals pledge to renounce all allegiances to foreign sovereigns and that they will defend the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. furthermore, research shows that the united states requires a citizenship test consisting of 98 questions. yet no one calls the united states a fascist state. the proposed israeli loyalty oath does not require loyalty to judaism, but to the character of the state. it is no different than pledging allegiance to the queen. no state can allow immigrants who are not willing to be loyal to the state.

1. Population transfer involves transferring Arab-populated areas to the future Palestinian state in exchange for some settlement blocks, not kicking Arabs out of their homes. 2. The world will do nothing even if Israelis decide to kill every single Arab man, woman and child. Just look at what is going on in the DRC.

for claiming that moving Arabs who work for the demise of Israel over to an Arab state is anywhere close to what the Nazis did to the Jews where they stole them from their homes, seperated them from their families, enslaved them, starved them. Beat them, humiliated them and then gassed them to their death. You compare these as being one in the same? The shame is to YOU and to the entire group of you who perverts the realities of what happened to my fathers mothers brothers and sisters in the Nazi horror camps. Moving an Arab that hates Israel away from Jews to live with his brother Arabs in not what the Nazis did to us. Had they dont that, we would have been thankfull. Shame on you.

It is not "an oath to Judaism", it does not require people to swear loyalty to another religion. It is a loyalty oath for a non-citizen, who wishes to become a citizen of the state, recognizing that the state they are choosing to join as a citizen is Jewish and democratic.

You are correct about the number of non Jews or 'goyim' as you refer to them, requesting Israeli citizen ship. But that is not the underlying issue, with an amendment here a reinterpretation there, all of a sudden the right of return becomes a non issue, which is exactly what the right wing are really up to. I suspect that you are well aware of this Natallie, am I correct? I'm just curious.

Excuse me, what? An oath to Judaism? No, Natallie, keep your extremist ideas, Israel will never do that. It is an oath of loyalty to the country.

Read this: http://www.counterpunch.org/lamb10152010.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/baroud10152010.html

except that when lieberman gets the upper hand thebill will apply to all gentikes.

the oath is not to Judaism, but to a Jewish State, which means that you don't have to be a Jew in a Jewish State, but that you have to be loyal to the Jewish state which means that you will not do anything to stop or try stopping it from being a Jewish State for the Jewish people.

Perhaps you would be happier with an oath to "the non jewish" state of Israel. However, I don't think you will be happy until the oath is to the Islamic state of Israel. This will not happen

Even though the world (including Israeli thinkers) insists such is a contradiction - but that's the arrogance of Israel .

Israel should embrace the idea that its a state of all religions if it wishes to present itself as a democracy. No limitations, no boundaries. Every single person should be included, not left out.

Nobody is asking anybody to swear an oath of loyalty to jews or judaism but to a JEWISH STATE. Israel has from day 1 - present day officially defined itself as a jewish state. In a country like the UK if your a foreigner and you want to take citizenship you must swear an oath of loyalty to the queen. What happens if you have a die hard republican who hates everything to do with the concept of monarchy but we are saying you want citizenship you swear loyalty to royalty? Should the UK stop demanding an oath of loyalty sworn to the queen because we should consider the views of the republicans who want citizenship? All this oath basically means is you recognize Israel is a jewish state and you swear loyalty to it as that. If they don't like the idea of recognizing Israel as a jewish state and swearing loyalty to it then nobody is holding a gun to their head and saying become a citizen and swear this oath... They want something ( citizenship ) and so we are allowed to demand something from them as a price for that citizenship ( a loyalty oath to Israel as a jewish state ). This doesn't affect the arabs or any other Israeli citizen that idea is a creation of the arabs and the politically correct leftists who believe we should not ask people to recognize Israel is a jewish state, many of them would feel happier if Israel did give up its jewish identity. This oath has been blown totally out of proportion and is there anything wrong with demanding that somebody who wants to become a citizen recognize the states chosen identity and swear loyalty to it?

States do not create states. Look up the word INDEPENDENCE

We do not throw out non-Gentiles. Salaam/Shalom

When you become a new citizen of America you do not proclaim your allegiance to the Christian Nation of America, you proclaim your allegiance to America.

Democracy is for multi faith no just chosen one

Yeah but do they pledge allegiance to Roman Catholicism, or the white American heritage in the US?

You know full well it's not the same thing. Their pledge is all about protecting their country, and mentions nothing about their ethnic make up. Very unlike dear Avigdor's plan.

To a Religion there is a pledge in the US? Deal with it that is fascism! Milosevic style!

As a native born I have not had to take an oath/pledge as Avi calls it. However, I believe that whatever it is called the pledgor is not required to recognize my country as a Christian nation. What is your response Avi?

to the state: to defend and support the constitution and the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. There is no loyalty oath to the "Christian and democratic" state of the United States.

not only certain sector pledges to certain type of state such as Christian. What would you say and do if only Jews have to pledge for the US Christian state?

The US supreme Court has ruled that saying the pledge of allegiance is optional. And being a country based on law (still a struggle), that is what the policy has been.

but why don't they live in Israel? If you're going to bring in millions of Jews from abroad you should make room for them in your own country and leave the West Bank to the Palestinians. That's all the international community wants from you. Borders!

The last thing you need is a Jewish State governed by Jewish law. It would be a Jewish version of Iran. Who wants to see that?

.....how stupid the loyalty bill is? How provocative? Foreign residents of even our enemy countries do not have to pledge allegiance to Islam. Open your eyes. Israeli politicians have turned their people into bigots.

That's why I loved Tel Aviv, people get together and express their views and find things they have in common, like democracy and the other stuff. I would be there with the Arabs at the rally if I were in Israel, it must have been a lot of fun!

Perhaps anti-Israeli marches are allowed throughout the mideast, but Jews are not. So as a skeptic perhaps you can state where Jews can march dude.

it' the loyaty to the "Jewish State" that's the problem. What if the USA decided all Jews have to pledge to the Christian USA. If it were you, how would you feel? Honestly. Further your disrespect for Pals is palbable. "These people"???

the state that you are in regardless for that they are Jewsish, hindi or any other place. You should be Skeptic.

I'm amazed at how many have NOT read the Declaration. Further more OFFICIALLY it ain't a democracy, but " it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel;” The prophets of Israel are a religious notion = theocratic.

Nothing like pulling a leg once in a while...

But Israel IS a JEWISH STATE!!! Whoever wants to live there must pledge loyalty or request citizenship in, i don't know, Iran maybe?

You would never dare get into what is not a White Christian State... You probably never have been to Israel anyways...

The headquarters and the main office are located in Un El Fahm

Jews, including Dov, enter Israeli Palestinian towns and villages all the time. Knaffeh in Nazereth, wicker furniture in Tira, humus in Abu Ghosh.

and scream " Death to Jews! Army of Mahommed is on its way !" Dov Khenin comes to arab places only with permission of muhtars .

The US remain a SECULAR State with no official religion. Moreover, the US is a State created on immigration. Hence, taking an oath to the US constitution is nothing like taking an oath declaring that this is not your state but only the one of the "Jews"... Israel is playing a very dangerous game by voluntarily playing between the notion of faith and people when it comes to Judaism...

You didn't say an oath to the USA as a Christian nation. . . that is for sure. So, you've misrepresented this. In Israel what's being asked is that people take what is essentially a sectarian pledge. What people should be asked to do both Jewish and not Jewish, is to pledge to Isael as the eternal homeland of the Jewish people, to obey the laws, and to defned the nation as rewquired by law. This is it.

The whole controversy is about the `Jewish` part.

Guananteed.

Both the Tea Party and republican party (in fact the same) argue that the United States is a 'Christian Nation' and the Roberts Supreme Court is beholden to both.

Those Jobs are retained for Settlers, members of Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu Only Godless Islamofascist loving Liberals would suggest that Israeli Arabs be awarded jobs reserved for political spoils.