Police arrest Women of the Wall leader for praying with Torah scroll

at the kotel

Yiddish speaking secular Jews tried to build Jewish cultures in the USA and Russia -- but they are long forgotten and their great grandchildren are probably not Jewish. Secular Judaism last about two generations if you are lucky.

I assume prisons in Jerusalem are also separate for men and women, even if they protest they are Reform? I have a feeling she is not married, but you have raised a good point.

The Israeli elites kept on encouraging the Orthodox to use them as a tool against the Arabs. In the end, it backfired and now they are against the secular Jews.

And I thought it was George Bush that said that!

I would rather be operated on by a female conservative surgeon using modern techniques than a male following the orthodox surgical practices of the 18th century. I prefer anesthesia and sterile technique.

I am an ex- orthodox jew, and still many of orthodox in my neck of the wood dont condone this behaviour ( although some do). But th silent majority need to stand up i agree with you.

have no relevance and connection to Judaism. Your play-dough method of molding anything you want into Jewish relevance just doesn't cut it. If your value system is based on your true knowledge of Jewish issues, we can all see how you relate to things that do not change and things that do change. When you want to push for issues that have real importance, you might get a following. right now, all you are is a cheerleader for deformed Judaism which is becoming more estranged from Torah Judaism every day. Things change with intelligence. Conform Jews try to change out of sheer ignorance and capitulation to more ignorant members. What else would you expect? You have positioned yourself very well.

Your customs being trampled...oh my. Don't listen the singing if it bothers you. I know the voices lead you to temptation, but the world doesn't revolve around you, Mr. Observer. Let these women alone to do as they wish and pray as they wish. Why should it bother you?

And if you think a gag order would help, then perhaps you have never heard of the Barbara Streisand Effect. By the way, why are women so often described as "brazen" by misogynists? I'm sort of surprised that you didn't manage to slip "wanton" in there as well.

In the Talmud gives an example [Rosh Hashanah 33a: Michal, daughter of King Saul "would put on tefillin and the sages did not protest." In addition, the treaty Menachot 43b we read: "Everyone is obliged to carry tsitsit, priests, Israelites, proselytes, women and slaves."

I agree with you, but these Haredim don't wan't to be in a modern country...middle ages, yes, but not of this world.

But strenuously denied by the Orthodox parties that control the wall. The women by the way who were reading from the Torah, were I believe, not actually in the womens section in front of the kotel but over to the side, near Robinson's Arach. It does not mattet what they do. They rabis will not accept women holding public prayer where their voices can be heard and in which they handle the Torah scroll. You talk as if they would be open to some sort of compromise. For them there is the halacha and then there is the halacha. You conform in every way to it but it is never, ever to conform to you.

Didn't realise buses were places of worship.

The Anglican Church and its associates like Presbyterians, all do have female ministers, and all can give full services at any occasion. This sort of openness to all regardless of gender - and who ever chose their birth gender? - or race fits in well with our idea of democracy which is also available to all regardless of gender or race. It is a good system, actually.

When there's a police intervention, it's political, like it or not. "The next time a woman tries to pray at a mosque in Europe or give a blessing in a Church," she won't get arrested.

She is just a normal human being!!!

but my point needed to show exactly that , and that is, anyway you flip the issue , it seems the haredim and the orthodox want control of the religion of the state, wich is, only open to their interpretation...

There is no difference. In both cases it is the haredim which are intolerant. And in both cases the courts bowed to their pressure. The only reason the Court let these parents go two weeks ago is because the rabbis joined forces to cook up some half-baked compromise. And now the Knesset is bowing once more with regards to the authority over conversion. I fear the time will come for me to take my "diaspora" ideas back to source, for I am getting sick and tired of the struggle against this chauvinist, self-righteous bunch.

This is exactly the point! What kind of a ruling is that?! When you see the kind of behaviour in the insular Orthodox ciommunity, how children are tortured (Elinor Chen, for example), or starved, or how even on Shabbat they burn tires, etc., where was the Supreme Court then? And this woman gives honor to the Torah by raising it.

Mazal tov to reply #27. Yours is the best reply in the world!

That's because there was no reading that took place today at the wall. The only thing that happened was that the Torah was taken out. It was not undressed and was not read since it was thrown into the police car with it's carrier before reaching Robinson's Arch.

the Torah was read today. typical low IQ jews who shoot from the lips and don't engage the brain. when underdeveloped-brain jews realize how diminished their thought processes have become, we hope some will seek immediate help and learn basic facts.

I was there...there was no torah rading at the Wall; Anat was carrying the Sefer torah from the Women's side of the Wall to Robinson's Arch where the reading was to take place. There is no law against a woman from carrying a torah. Watching the police try to grab the torah from Anat's hands was one of the more disturbing images I've ever witnessed.

I was profoundly disturbed by this 'mauling' of the Torah by the police/Anat. I think everyone should be allowed to worship and pray, perhaps, if they were sinning, this would bring them closer to G-d. What I didn't appreciate was the free-for-all 'mauling' of the Torah like it was pinata candy.

Perversion parade? You obviously can't bring yourself to name things by their proper name! So much for the enlightenment and all this studying, it is obviously not increased your tolerance. Nevertheless, first these women and slowly we'll be working to spread the love even further into the abyss of darkness that shrouds this narrowminded belief system.

There is no ridicule of anyones faith here except by you. At least we are not like Iran who you are in bed with. They just announced holding off the stoning of a woman convicted of adultery. Go live in Iran Natalie you racist clown

Just what, my friend Gilad, did Natalie say that was rascist? She regularly criticizes Israeli policy, and anyone with eyes in their head can agree that there is much to criticize. While Natlie is often a bit exaggerating she does remind us to check to the log in own eye instead of always noticing the motes in others. A pearl of wisdom said many years ago by a nice Jewish boy.

Reserves criticism for one state and one people alone. This is my point. Can no one see that? I'm not agreeing with this policy, I'm stating that regardless of its correctness Natalie has knives out for Israel at all times, why is she so obsessed with the actions of jews alone, what attracts her to it when over 600 people have been killed this month alone by muslim peace activists? Like the bomb last night in Uganda? Not carried out by jews, therefore not in her sphere of hate and interest

Reserves criticism for one state and one people alone. This is my point. Can no one see that? I'm not agreeing with this policy, I'm stating that regardless of its correctness Natalie has knives out for Israel at all times, why is she so obsessed with the actions of jews alone, what attracts her to it when over 600 people have been killed this month alone by muslim peace activists? Like the bomb last night in Uganda? Not carried out by jews, therefore not in her sphere of hate and interest

And for them, Jewish law states that women must be seperated from men during most mixed communal activities, certainly at public prayer. That's one. Then, they believe Jewish law forbids a man from hearing a woman's voice singing since that is considered immodest and enticing. Then a woman is not allowed to carry the Torah scroll because that has been the custom for generations and they consider a woman unclean if she is in her menses and it would be an embarrassment to ask if she is or isnt in such a state during which it is forbidden to touch the Torah. These rabbis demand that women pray silently and behind a wall that seperates them from the men who of course are allowed to pray with full voice for the women to hear.

You are not excused. It is a religious matter; there is a decree supported by IHC and they broke the law. People who breaks laws no matter what their opinion on it are usually witnesses to them being enforced.

in the late '50s? They of course were breaking the law but doing so to change a law that they considered unjust. Who makes these laws. Jewish law also allows for slavery. Should we bring that back and say that Jewish law is the most just law when dealing with ones slaves or ban slavery all together?

The law actually states that READING of the Torah by women is forbidden at the Kotel. Thus the reason we were heading to Robinson's Arch with the still fully dressed Torah scroll.

If a law is unjust it is our duty to fight it. Did I see someone comparing this to Alabama earlier?

Thank you for the explanation. It certainly helped me understand the issue.

As an outsider, I didn't understand whether it was a legal or a religious matter. From your response it seems to be both. Thank you enlightening me on that.

what you describe sounds like nothing so much as the taliban.

Is it less embarrassing to see the Torah mauled by civil servants than to ask a woman if she is ritually pure?!?! Better to see an embarrassing and humiliating fight on holy ground than to help your fellow Jew understand the Law or their offense with grace (by the way, I see no place D'varim that supports a woman not wearing Tefillin or Tzitzit, 'Hear O Israel'...right...not 'Hear only a subset of Israel')?!?! What a strange world we live in...I have to say that I don't wear Tefillin, (being a woman I hope that Torah is written upon my heart and mind) only Tzitzit, but I would be extremely upset if someone tried to disrobe me or commander mine while I was praying. Still the absolute worst offence today is to the Torah...who will excuse themselves for this debauchery?

Progressive Judaism denigrates? That is hilarious. Methinks it's the other way around. And as for "traditional judaism": traditions come and go and rightly so. Why should these women accept another group's traditions if theirs can be ignored.

only those who place no value on the traditions that have evolved from intelligent and connected people with Judaism. Conform Jewish practicioners today, aka, conform rabbis have morphed into such incredibly concensus driven decision makers, they are charlatans at best. Having grown up in a con shul not too long ago, the rebbi had knowledge and standards and would not bend due to the pressures from low IQ jews. PLUS, his philosophy was, a Jew keeps moving to the right in study and observance. Now tell us about your sacrosanct traditions emulating from agenda driven and convenience Judaism. If you don't have enough background to see your ships sinking and notice in desperation you pick fights with the keepers of the faith, then, my friend you are also inflicted with the self destructive parasitic bug called conform. It influences Jewish birthrates, it blocks the brain from opening to intergenerational Jewish thought and action, it blinds the eyes to seeing Jews thrive outside of your own infected world. May you live until 120 and have the chance to open your eyes and mind and experience the only Judaism that follows the 'Torah and does not treat it as a political football.

and poskened that Jewish law forbids Jews from renting to non-Jews, in this specific case, foreign workers? That I guess in your mind is not part of what you term "the infected world". That is only prserving what you defend as the greatest defense in preserving the Jewish People. Do you not see the folly of your argument?

Your ignorance of progressive or Reform Judaism is appalling. The Judaism that Anat Hoffman practices stems from years of repression of pluralism in Israel. Her "brand" of Judaism may be different from yours, but neither is necessarily superior. Yours, however, demeans itself when denying rights and privileges to others.

by that, i take it you mean those who disagree with you. And Albert Einstein wasn't observant so I suppose his IQ must have been low, too. You are a dangerous cultist, A Voice (and seemingly pretty stuid, too)

Reply #14 makes me extremely sad. On the contrary, this woman Anat is very much a woman of valor. And had it not been for the U.S. of A there would not even BE a State of Israel. It is time that this anonymous "voice" revise her stance, put her name behind her opinion so that she can be properly counted. Perhaps this is the voice of a man, but either way condescending and patronizing just doesn't "cut it" in my opinion. Good work to Haaretz, and it seems that the majority on this Rosh Chodesh sides w/ Anat.

Einstein said I am not an American, I am not a jew, I am a human being: It might be of some interest to note one of the items on Albert Einstein’s desk, found after his death and prior to a planned speech to the israeli Knesset, was the following introduction: " I am not an American, I am not a jew, I am a human being". it was, therefore, not a surprise that jewish leaders of that day were shaking in their boots, and much relieved when he turned down the presidency of israel which would then go to chain Weitzman. for a definitive work on his life, works and trials, go to "Einstein" by Walter Isaacson.

brainwashed existence who has no adult understanding of what a G-dly relationship means. Any Jew who says the Torah is man-written demonstrates his infatuation with himself and has yet to learn the basic abc' s of Judaism needed to BEGIN to understand what OUR Torah is about. Your pompousness practically puts you beyond the radar of the worst of the 4 sons. Failure to see what has kept Jews alive Since Sinai shows your simple bias, shortcomings, low JewIQ and most probable drift into oblivion. You are a creature of intelligent lacking habits and you enjoy the status quo that places no official responsibilities on you which most probably, your ancestors took very seriously. True, they did not pay for the 'degrees' your parents paid for, and they were not as enlightened as you, but something tells me they had you in mind when they lit candles, studied a page of gemorah and davened daily. Thier purity, which you scoff at today is the reason you are alive and with some honest introspection and bias removal potions, you might be able to continue in their enormous footsteps. Right now, you seem to leave little if any impressions. good luck!

Oh the youth these days! Aristotle didn't think much of them either. Reminds me of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book in which she describes how heavy her forefathers weighed on her shoulders, and how much she wanted to escape them. She eventually did, and, granted, she no longer considers herself a Muslim, a submissive, but rather a free student of Western liberal thought. No doubt a terrific tale for you. Jewish individuales are alive because of their forefathers' purity? We're alive because our forefathers lived long enough to have children. Purity has nothing to do with survival, which is a bitter and complicated thing and has nothing to do with religious dogma. All you wish to keep alive is prejudice and outdated notions of a woman's uncleanliness.

You say the Torah was not man-written and must be obeyed. However, this issue is nowhere addressed in the Torah; the rules were made up by rabbis who were men. Please explain how rules made up by men are not men-written.

the level of nastiness towards other Jews that you are expressing is a Hillul Hashem. anyone who speaks this way of other Jews and claims to be observant or orthodox needs to go learn about how sinat chinam was the cause of the churban. Please please stop. if you consider yourself to be religious, then get off the internet and go study Torah or daven or do an act of gemilut chasadim. This kind of insulting other Jews publicly on the internet or privately is not considered righteous in anyone's eyes. Perhaps review some of the teachings of the Hafetz Hayyim. Please stop this level of chotei umachti acherim. Please, lshem shamayim, ulshem shalom: for the sake of heaven and for the sake of peace.

I personally know the woman in the photo and she wears skirts all the time.

make you comments. As such Halacha, aka Jewish Jurisprudence is considered Revealed Law, just as Solon's Law, much of Roman Law, too. Jewish Law was given to Moses on Sinai and was handed down and interpreted according to certain Tradition. THEY DIDN'T MAKE ANYTHING UP! In fact, the process by which the rulings are made is hardly "f;undamentalist", with discussions between the scholars as to the source and reasoning of the various versions of the text and their meanings. Yes, Virginia, its a subtext, that requires that you understand how to put a Halachic decision together. It may take a while before they come to a conclusion, but its all there, the Written Law, and the Oral Law.

This is a cyclical argument. Then why do we know from history and archeology that during the time of the Nazarene there was wide variation in interpretating what the oral alw was or even if there should be such a thing, as an auxiliary to the written law. Jewish law developed and it never existed as we know it today from the time of Moses until today. It developed. as a way of making applicable certain laws in the written Torah.

I would advise for you to do a little research into the matter yourself, instead of reading second hand info. I would start with the Rambam's intro to the Mishna. It will answer your misunderstandings.

that women can pray all they want at the wall. for all the others who don't get the 'separation' bit, On a cummunity level, in issues of religious observance, the 'bar' of standards is raised so that the most observant can worship and stand at these locations. Even in the usa, at community events, the level of Kosher observance is usually at the highest point so that all members of the community can participate. In an country where sacred sites are not just physical space, but also have lively spiritual significance based on history and fact, the dominant forces who maintain the traditions (religious Jews, and not just ultra or haredi) who are connected with these spaces are obligated to protect them from outsiders who spurn the traditions, care not about the more religious and insist on bringing their own carefree antics to the holy sites. They would not go to Rome and pull these publicity stunts there. They are politically activated with hatred toward the keepers of the faith and figure they will get attention and maybe a few more members and some money to fund their ngo status.

wow, what a lot of words that add up to nothing at all. pompous, self-righteous windbag

Choosing to wear a tallit or to hold a Sefer Torah by a woman is not a "carefree antic". These are religious women, not progressives or reconstructionists or whatever, truly religious women. Getting arrested for doing the above is outrageous and sickening, and should be vociferously objected to by all women.

Well, I'm non the wiser for all of your words. I am not Jewish, but I have heard the sound of the Shofar (BBC radio program/synagogue Germany) it sounded very spiritual. You cannot tell me that the Women of the Wall do not have the right or that they are doing something that is not "Kosher."

I am sure this is just flamebait but i'll bite. Women in SA wish beyond their wildest dreams they were treated like women in Israel (women are not "treated" in Israel - whatever that means). What this proves without doubt is that YOU are a fraud.

"Is that Israeli women like in Saudi Arabia are expected to remain subserviant, and the full weight of the state is applied to ensure they are." I'm not religious at all, actually I'm a atheist, but at places considered to be holly, another set of rules apply pthe same way

Can you enter a catholic church wearing a hat? A synagogue NOT wearing one? Can you go to a mosque wearing shorts?

Chris - Read the article. Not being able to hold the Torah at the Wall has nothing to do with being an Israeli woman. It should read "Jewish woman". In orthodox synagogues throughout the world (including in the U.S., UK etc) Jewish women are limited. Israeli women however can drive cars, can wear shorts as short as they'd like, can vote, check into a hotel without permission and even go to a museum whenever they'd like! Quite western and quite democratic if you ask me.

allowing your to type out such absurdities, shows how silly and dumb talkbackers can be. Your infatuation with that which you are not is indeed intriguing and if indeed you had a jewish mother, perhaps you may someday find that within your brain is a seed never developed but close to germinating and growing branches of intelligence and truth.

again a comment about superior jewish intelligence. ok, if that intrinsic quality, why not others less flattering? Greedy? Selfish? Impolite? Brazen? Your self-regard at the expense of others is disgusting

Actually you have missed the point that I was making. The fact that in Israel there are laws which are applicable to women and not to men just like in saudi Arabia. Israel cannot declare itself a western style democracy whilst this situation occurs. And fyi I anm quite happy been the goy in the goyim. Being a part of The Chosen People (TM) reminds me to much of National Socialism of the 1930's.

Yes, Chris, Israel is not a "western style" society. If it was, we would have to put up with tedious anti-Semites like you. Why so obsessed with Jews, Chris? Israel, Maddoff, Fraud, etc.. Climb back into the black hole between your ears and stay there.

Whatever. By the way i am not an anti semite I support the Palestinan people. What I have stated and what a Haaretz moderator allowed to be published is that there are laws in Israel which apply to men and not women. Therefore it is a fraud for israel to declare it is the only democracy on western lines in the iddle East, involving sums of money Madoff would be proud of.

you can then be expected to understand why the conform Jewish 'habits' are abnoxious and out of place in the holiest site on the earth. When you can put 'holy' back into your existence through traditions and mitzvah observance, then, maybe you might understand. Until then, Conform politics and cultism will be kept at a distance from the kotel. Anyone can pray there while respecting the higher, community standard.

That of course is obvious. Those in control. There are more Jews living today who would argue that "higher community standard" does not apply to forbidding women from holding public, open prayer, allowing them to read from the Torah. Here in New York, there are those who would argue from Jewish law that they are maintaining the "higher community standard" by not allowing women to drive or ride a bus with men unless sittting behind them seperated by a mechitzah.

nice point, as usual. but careful, you'll make "a voice" decide to move to brooklyn. or maybe a voice will become so fed up with the corruption of judaism that he'll convert to islam and join the taliban, among whom he'd feel quite comfortable

judaism if you can only relate this to the '60's You have tuned yourself out of the real Jewish picture with your sorely missing lack of Jewish education and knowledge, so we can assume your posturing and writing is based on spurious beliefs. You are closer to a gentile than a Jew of your previous generations. Sad commentary!

Judaism and Islam seems to have more incommon than with the Christianity. Why not rise above the old sexism in the holy books? Many Jews has already performed that, now it's your turn to take a step forward in the evolution of Judaism and accept women as equals

to a learned Shi'ite ayatollah in Iran. So what? So you are closer to a different kind of gentile as well, just one with a beard and head covering who shares your views on the religious role of women.

It used to be traditional in Judaism to stone adulterers. Best not alienate the people who pay the bills, because apparently the penalty for working on the Sabbath is death, well that's most American footballers, Baseball players and basketball players accounted for. Apparently, according to the Torah, I am allowed to sell my daughter, she is attractive has strong teeth and child bearing hips, she speaks two languages and is a trained nurse, how much do you think she is worth? Or don't you mean those bits, you only want to choose which traditions you want to see observed while you are quite happy to discard the others. I'll hold off digging the stoning pits then.

The stoning of adulterers in Judaism was extremely rare. Thew written Torah does permit capital punishment for certain offences, but the oral Law made its application next to impossible. The discussion of capital punishment and the rabbis attempts to build a fence around applying it is one of the most fascinating arguments in the Talmud. I seem to remember learning a bit of number play where while discussing capital punishment one rabbi says that a Sanhedrin that condemned a person once in 7 yrs was called bloody while another retorts, no., not 7 but rather 70!

How does this contrast with the issue of ordination of women bishops in the Anglican Church; an issue that is high on the news agenda; funnily enough in London? Such a change would require an act of parliament. Anyway, if this is all about religion, perhaps this woman should observe basic women’s Jewish laws and cover her hair. Start with the basics before you want to do the extras.

How does this contrast with the issue of ordination of women bishops in the Anglican Church; an issue that is high on the news agenda; funnily enough in London? Such a change would require an act of parliament. Anyway, if this is all about religion, perhaps this woman should observe basic women’s Jewish laws and cover her hair. Start with the basics before you want to do the extras.

women and men praying together - why is it not ok and who says so? Nehemiah seems to think it was ok. when Torah was read to the people. Nitzavim tells us everyone was at Sinai to receive Torah. Oh, someone was so determined to find a source for a prohibition that they had to go to zechariah 12:12 which talks about separation of the genders - and all families too by the way - during mourning. That's it folks. the full biblical prooftext for separation of genders in prayer. Dont tell me - the Temple had separation in prayer. Really? funnily enough the ezrat nashim was the outer courtyard and EVERYONE passed through it so men and women mingled freely. The ezrat nashim was just the furthest in a woman could go. just like the ezrat yisrael was the furthest in an ordinary israelite could go. look at tractate middot 2:5 for more info. and the woman's gallery in the second temple? simple - have a look at tractate sukkah 51a - women sat in a temporary gallery during simchat beit hashoeva in order to protect them from the levity of the men. and the rest of the year presumably they could protect themselves. but I suppose if the police arrest a woman and show no respect to her or a sefer torah at the kotel, maybe we should build a structure to protect the women again - how about half the wall given over to them to pray in as they wish and not allow men to throw chairs over on pain of arrest or even cherem? I'm pretty sure there is no source for assaulting women at the kotel, even if it seems to have become a weird kind of minhag

So are they anarcho-syndicalists after the style of Peter Kropotkin or something.. ..or do you just have no idea whatsoever what the words that you are using actually mean?

and there is one of the holiest sites of Islam standing there.

Before the Balfour declaration or thereabouts the role of Jerusalem in Islam was about the same as that of Samarkand or Fez. Just read some books on the Ottoman Empire (come to think of it, they are probably too long for someone who can only handle leftie sounsbites)

we better hope the Christians don't claim a slice of the site, Christ preached there and they had several churches and cathedrals on the mount. Oh, by the way, until changes in Islam, the faithful turned to al Aqsa (not Mecca) to pray - suggesting that it was somewhat important.

We don't need more fighting. There are plenty of types of Judaism to choose from here Charedi Dati leumi Lubavitch Hasidic secular sephardic teman and many shades. We have enough Jewish groups here

This is why OTHER streams of Judaism should have equal rights. The ones you list are also nuts - but should have the same rights as all. Judaism was always a progressive religion. It is only in the last 50 years where the ultra-orthodox/Haredi have tried to regress to the past .

take it easy on the rhetoric, u except kudos for being a pro male, SECular jew in israel? schgoyach!

And apparently women get arrested for following some of those types.

@chad... Not sure what you were trying to say. I do not need to 'accept' any kudos (I suppose you meant 'accept' rather than 'except'?). Why should I take it 'easy on the rhetoric'? Clarify why I do "wrong" instead of blurting out emotionally!

typical.

Do not tell the thousands of Jews who live here in Israel, pay taxes here in Israel, send their children to fight in the army here in Israel that we do not belong here. Just allow equal rights for ALL Jews and Israel will be fine

interesting that you say that I wonder if you hear yourself

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the authentic streams you mention also diaspora products? You may try to rewrite history, but furry hats and long winter coats don't hail from the Levant either. Nor is it relevant where people or streams hail from. It's the message which counts. E pluribus unum... May I say that, or is that too French or American as well?

i know, i know, it's tough to get past the idea of racial supremacy... but just try to imagine...

What is wrong with people interpreting the Torah to fit their lifestyles and practicing Judaism as they see fit. Why are people having to conform to your particular interpretation of the Torah? And why are you so sure that your interpretation is right.

Thanks for your comments. Yes, John. The world turns around US Jews. If it wasn't for US Jews, the world would fall off it's axis. Get over yourselves. Not even the secular here are interested in "reform", they are perfectly comfortable being secular, unlike our whinny diaspora cousins who feel the need to make the inane religious gestures that compose Reform Judaism. Unlike the diaspora, the secular people who live in Israel and speak Hebrew don't need to prove to themselves they are Jews. Hence, Reform and Conservative will never fly here.

who may feel themselves Jewish and are not considred such by the religious uthorities and even many of the nationalists, ie lieberman not allowint in those who are not deemed Jewish but Hebrew speaking, in Nokdim.

Jews in Israel experience religious discrimination. Many "secular" (read: not Haredi, but YES still Jewish) Jews have to get married out of the country if they don't want to be part of the hijacked religious system here. But I wonder, is this going to conveniently set the stage for the rabbinate not recognizing the children of these Jewish marriages as non-Jews? This is going to affect our lives in real ways, and is very alarming to see my own religion turning itself inside out.

wow. what arrogance and contempt! well, we all know how hubris ends

Hasidism is a Golus product. So is the Kabbala. So is Chabad. So is Agude. The Meah Shearim look is Polish 18th century poretz fashion.

William is missing the point. I do not object to his desire to live in any form he wants. I object to his deside to force me to live in a manner dictated by him. The US Constitution forbids creation of a state religion and so should Israel.

"The US Constitution forbids creation of a state religion and so should Israel....." This is not the US, it is Israel. Why not shove your constitution down the throats of Europeans too? Tell the French, Irish, and Italians they can't be Catholic countries. We should all drop our thousands of years of traditions and become enlightened Americans like you.

"Jews have to get married out of the country..." Correct, when they want to marry non-Jews the marriage is not recognized by Rabbi's. Is this surprising to you? I'm not a black-hatter myself, but I think the Torah is pretty explicit that Jews are not supposed to marry non-Jews. If you don't agree with that, then find another religion. Judaism is not whatever you would like it to be. It's a body of established laws and customs.

This motto is Latin, not French. The clothes we wear are of course from various Diaspora countries, but the separation of men and women at the Temple goes back to Solomon's Temple and even earlier to the Mishcan or Tabernacle.

Israel was created to be a Jewish state. It was built on the British model of an established religion, in this case Orthodox Judaism. All religions are free to practice their gfaith in Israel, but Orthodox Judaism is recognised as the state religion which is why official govt departments should observe Shabbos and kashrus . The Supreme Court ruled that the section of the Wall known as Robinson's Arch should be used for non-Orthodox Jewish services. The Wstern Wall Plaza has the legal status of an Orthodox synagogue.

@Sherlock from Bond Street... I know 'E pluribus unum' is Latin, but the the concept gained ground in the US after the French Revolution, like so many concepts of the time. My point about religious customs hailing from the diaspora, however, stands. It was meant to disprove that rotten accusation that Reform has no place in Israeli society because it is a diaspora invention.

'Then find another religion'. In Israel that often still means you cannot get married. Judaism might be a state religion as Sherlock also says, but in many countries the state religion is no impedement for people of different backgrounds to marry in civil fashion, including the country where I grew up which is protestant but allows interfaith and gay marriage. Back to Israel: do not underestimate the difficulties of millions of immigrants to the country in this respect - what choice do they have? Lastly, established customs??? Judaism is more than some would like it to be. This goes for all religions. If we followed all the laws our society would grind to a halt and modernity would be swept away.