High Court: Gender segregation legal on Israeli buses - but only with passenger consent
In response to petition submitted against ultra-Orthodox Mehadrin line nearly three years ago, Israel's highest legal body rules that coercion of such practice is illegal: 'Have we returned to the days of Rosa Parks?'
By Yair EttingerThe High Court of Justice ruled Thursday that public bus companies could continue the practice of gender segregation on dozens of lines serving the ultra-Orthodox sector, as long as there is no coercion or violence involved.
"A public transportation operator, like any other person, does not have the right to order, request or tell women where they may sit simply because they are women," Supreme Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein wrote in his ruling. "They must sit wherever they like."
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Ultra-Orthodox men riding a sex-segregated bus in Jerusalem. |
| Photo by: Emil Salman |
"As I now read over these lines emphasizing this I am astounded that there was even a need to write them in the year 2010," he added. "Have the days of Rosa Parks, the African American woman who collapsed the racist segregation on an Alabama bus in 1955 returned?"
In the last hearing on the matter late last year, Rubinstein had indicated that the justices were inclined to accept a recommendation to that effect already adopted by the Transportation Ministry
The Transportation Ministry committee had found that while it could not declare the segregation legal, the existing buses on the "Mehadrin" line should be given another chance to continue operating temporarily as long as any segregation was voluntary and women were not being forced to sit in the back of the bus.
The Reform movement's Israel Religious Action Center, which initially petitioned against the practice, said following that hearing that adoption of the Transportation Ministry committee findings indicates that the High Court endorses the idea that such segregation is illegal. The ministry must intensify bus monitoring to ensure there is no coercion or violence, said the center.
Orly Erez-Likhovski, who represents several women who were also party to the petition, also welcomed Rubinstein's statement.
The Mehadrin lines serve mostly ultra-Orthodox communities, but are open for all public commuters. A petition deeming the segregated lines illegal was filed in 2007, after several women complained of being verbally and physically assaulted for failing to sit in the back of the bus.
The state had already fully accepted the Transportation Ministry's position that the committee findings allowing the continued segregation should be adopted.
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hurra israel going back to the south africain old system white left black rigth or womens behind mens are in front .i belive whe lifing in 2011? or maybe 100 years back???
How sad that Israel is suffering from the same religious idiocy as many of its neighbouring countries.
All you sub-Citizens, You women who are so inferior in the eyes of the government that you cannot be allowed to seduce men by your presence, should simply stay off the bus. Katsav associated with those depraved sub-humans known as women and look what they did to him! Yes, it is time for women to sit in the rear of the bus if they are that sick. For all DECENT people, they should stop riding the bus until the Haredi degenerates have no bus to ride on since the company went broke for appeasing them. Boycott the busses until the Haredi are forced to walk as if they were some inferior woman.
Do not get on the bus.
The ortodox should go Over the bus and the others inside !!
by the way when is the last time those guys in the bus took a shower?
In other words, the court said it is illegal to enforce gender segregation. Obviously, people may sit away from the opposite gender if they choose.
The decsion does not "segregate the buses". It says the lines that are run by Haredim can continue to operate as they have been doing. If you choose not to ride those lines, then you ride on the lines that don't have "those rules". Anyone who rides a bus in Jerusalem knows that even when the buses don't divide along "separate lines", the custom is that often women prefer to sit with women, and men sit with men. Is that segregation?! Is that Saudi Arabia?! What does happen, at times on buses that "aren't segregated" is that when a Haredi man has no choice but to sit other than next to a women, he stands up, and likewise women stand up. Eventually, a man will offer the seat next to him to a man, and a woman to a woman. I am sure it happens in Tel Aviv, too, where the Haredim might run a bus line, but it ususally goes through Bene Brak, where the population prefers that arrangement. This ain't no theocratic decison, its a matter of people payin' their money and getting their choice.
On ordinary, supposedly unsegregated buses, the men put bags on the seat next to them and also on the seats opposite them. They'll lift them for a man and won't notice if a woman needs a seat because they're not supposed to be looking at her. The civilized, gentlemanly behavior Davis credits them with is largely wishful thinking.
In Arab countries, it's archaic oppression and religious fanaticism, in Israel it's democracy and free choice
Israel is justifying the mistreatment of its woman, because it ruled that a woman who consents to being separated from men on public busing is acceptable. Is this because G-d created Eve from Adam's rib? This wonderful for a Theocracy but a sad sad day for the middle east's sole democracy
I guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue!
Orthodox Jews are very decent people! Israel is far from becoming a Theocracy. I do care about your image when i read headlines that state that separate is ok... I tend to view the world through my American lens
to stop this madness, else it will turn the clock a few centuries back
al human problems will be gone.when god,s make the earth a paradis again.like in the beginning.
in the land of the chosen ones :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
The court did not say that segregation is okay. It said the exact opposite - declaring that these bus lines are illegal. This is a horrible example of an unprofessional reporter and editor who cannot read and comprehend a simple legal case. All the commentators here are commenting not on the reality but on a fiction invented by the haaretz. Go and read the actual case.
where are we Heading ?? Even our HIGH COURT under the Influence of the ORTHODOX ..compromising .and Declaring .with a half Glass empty ?? BY saying Passenger Consent .,, what kind of character or the nature of this high Court ,i see the writing on the wall .we are going down into the DRAIN .,what the future of our Israel will BE ??? Same as SHARIA LAW ..time for A wake up Call to stand up to the ORTHODOX .And have our freedom
Segregation is illegal. A woman - or man - can sit wherever they wish. Why does this article they to hide that fact?
Every one can foresee what will happen. A woman trying to sit not in the back will be shouted at by the passengers, so "public opinion" will move her to the back of the bus, although not the company operating the bus. In effect, women will be "forced" to segregate. In order to remember that this is not the "natural order" of things, there ought to be a day in the year where this type of segregation is violated. It may be enforced by a secular women organization, perhsps even the Meretz party, which will send pairs of women activists to violate the rule. Announce it in advance to minimize mutual shouting. Perhaps it can be done on Purim, when the Orthodox can expect the "reversal" of order. Israel's Independence Day is also a good day.
Cowing the independent minded is a real aspect of all societies and prevalent in religious ones. Societal laws temper such excesses. The bullying and abuse when asserting a simple human right to sit were one wishes follows hard on the heals of this decision. A bus is a public conveyance vehicle, not a private one it uses taxpayer roads, is funded in part by all citizens. This decision is divorced from reality.
enlightenment seems to be a problem for a lot of persons and makes them feeling anxious. enlightenment is daily work. dogmatic thinking is more convenient - but very dangerous. at least it ends in war.
Hush and get to the back of the bus!
What else will your Rabbis learn from the Iranian mullahs. You are moving in the same direction. Next thing you will bring back stoning. I'm sorry, but this is all too crazy. Instead of moving society forward, religious fanatics world wide are moving us backwards.
These people look and act silly. But you keep supporting them with money and actions. You, Israelis, are drifting into the same situations which you detest in others.....extreme Islam, etc. Let them ride their own busses. Become people, please!
such restrictions do not happen in Syria,Lebanon,Iran or Egypt. What happend to Secular israel?
They have many children, with prams and strollers. It would be more comfortabe for them to sit in the front. no?
Just about every bus in Israel has two sets of doors, one at the front and one at the middle. Its very common for women (or men) with strollers to get on in the middle, Settle all their things then go to the front to pay. If anything the front of the bus is more crowded and less comfortable
And the men should be sitting in the back of the bus facing backward, especially orthodox men, so they can't be oggling the ladies - which they're all prone to do! Never trust a smiling cat...or a pious man!
Racial segregation IS illegal. People can choose where they sit. They are free to choose to sit segregated, if they like.
Why this doubletalk? A thing is either legal or it is not legal. This effects peoples behavior. Taking a quick poll of people on the scene at the time to determine what the laws of the land are is stupid. Trying to please everybody = pleasing nobody.
will just lead to pressure to consent. also, the court needs to send a message to the haredi community that they are not normal, and their bahvaiour is unacceptable.
Please stop stealing from me. Get out of the yeshiva get a job work go to the army and pay for your own private bus system that doesn't have to conform to public standards.
I have no problem sitting next to a haredi man. If he has a problem, he can get up. In fact, if he chooses to get off the bus and walk, more power to him! I refuse to make his problem mine. I am old, I am tired, my feet hurt -- and I paid for a seat. The haredi man has not paid for two seats.
The judges that passed this law should be barred from their post. This law will justify every person having called Israel an apartheid state. Shame on you Israel judicial system you have just allowed us to go back 2000 years back in history when Israel was not united and on the bring of destruction. White South Africa regime passed laws of segregation and where are they now? 6 foot under !
A POLL MUST BE TAKEN FOR CONSENT TO SEGREGATE ? it is therefore deemed that the practice is not lawful and must be ended !
If any man starts this 'back of the bus' nonsense again, he should be thrown off the bus.
I was recently visiting Israel. 3 times I was asked to sit in the back of the bus by passengers, not the driver. As a visitor, I do not know where to get off the bus and I generally felt more comfortable sitting in the front of the bus so the driver could tell me when we reached my stop. On these "segregated" buses I was made to feel uncomfortable by the male passengers. These are public buses, and everyone has the right to sit where they want. I understand why they want to sit separately, but as an American (who learned about Rosa Parks and civil rights) I felt discriminated against. The ultra orthodox need to understand other people's feelings too. If they need to sit separately they should have their own privately owned buses where they could make the rules.
It is a bd decidion which equal Israeli High Court with counterpart in Iran and Saudi arabia. It is a shame on democratic Israelis
How is guaranteeing the right to choose where you sit anything like the Saudis or Iranians?
I assure you democratic Israelis are appalled by the mere fact that a Mehadrin bus line exists that is funded by the public. I have no problem if people want an ultra-orthodox bus line that segregates as long as it is 100% financed by the community which is serves. But we all know that they wouldn't pay for it out of their own pockets. They simply reach into mine.
Westernization is what kills the morals.
No wonder less and less Europeans and americans are making aliyah to Israel Given the choice who would want to live in a religious theocracy in the Middle east
Then how do you explain the fact that more people then ever are making aliyah?
lol soon womens will not be alowed too on the street what a bloody democratic country whe have???? soon no religiouse mens will be asked sitting in the package look its a hell of a country isnt???/
the dictatorship of Haredim. Haredim are not more Jewish than Israeli people. They still live in middle age.
Everyone's freedom can be respected only in a truely secular society. Unfortunately, with ultra conservatives, it is always their way or the highway. No difference with ultr conservative muslims/christians. why should your population be hostage of people who do not understand the very concept of respecting others and that in a society , in order to live all together, everyone needs to make concessions and be reasonable in their demands. they need to tone it down a little, a lot even.
Will a woman dare to sit in the 'wrong' section and be subject to murmured threats and insults? And when she complains to the police, what will happen: Case closed for lack of witnesses.
Just left room for the next legal action which will end up being criminal assault rather than civil discrimination
Go and read the case! The decision said the segregation is *illegal*, not that it is legal.
Do they think that they were born from virgin mothers and fathers?
this one is another story. Sigmund has already explain that sex is driven the people even the most conservative Haredim.
maybe the are bi sexual or even gays
So everyone concerned conveniently forgot why the pertition was made to the court in the 1st place. It was because women on illegal segregated buses were being abused. Now if the future they know that there is no point complaining because the wishes of the abusers will be upheld. Rosa Parks will be turning in her grave.
If buses on 'Haredi routes' are responding to the demand for separate seating, then there can be no objection as long as there is no coercion. Assault is a criminal matter and once it is clear that this applies on buses as elsewhere the situation will resolve itself. I recall as a youngster being asked in Temple Har Sinai in Baltimore to take off my yamulka! That was religious coercion.
The High Court has ruled that sectors who voluntarily want segregated services can have them. However if a lady from outside the sector wants to get on one of those buses, she can do so and sit wherever she likes. What is the problem with this? I am not a haredi but I respect their right to organize their own life; they have human rights as well. In return I expect the haredi sector to acknowledge that there may sometimes be ladies who get on these separate buses and sit in the wrong section by mistake. I am not speaking of deliberate provocateurs.
You must understand that coercion can be subtle and, like other crimes, hard to prove without witnesses and hard evidence. So let's say a woman sits where she wants and several men around her make violent verbal threats under their breaths or push her around as the bus sways over bumps. If all deny any wrongdoing when the police investigate, it will be her word against all of theirs. Multiply this by 20 times a week. Not an easy case to win in an already overcrowded legal system.
Why shouldn't a man or a woman sit where they want on a bus? They have that right in normal countries.
On the relevant lines (e.g. #1 in Jerusalem), there shuld be alternating 'regular' busses and Mehadrin busses - to meet the need of both population groups...
How it is possible, that haredim have SO MANY CHILDREN, if haredi men want totally sexual segregation in schools, buses, on the streets, in shops - in all life. In the Czech Republic, if we want have child, we need have both man and woman - usually. But in our country llive men and women together in all branches of life! And we have not so many children, after all...
Israel is 80% secular, just like the Czech Republic. Families have about the same number of children as in the Czech Republic, and things work similar. Haredim, which are 10% of Israels' population, are Jews who believe time stopped somewhere in the 17th century, in Poland, and they follow the very first precept of the 613 precepts of the Torah, that says "be fertile and multiply". So they don't use -to the large part- any contraceptive, and women keep having children all along their fertile life, 6, 7, 8, 9, sometimes 10 or 11. Some add to this p`recept of the Torah, the notion that just as the Jewish people suffered the Holocaust, and 6 millions Jews were murdered by the Nazis and their accomplices, so Jews must replenish -so to speak- the number of Jews. Unfortunately, these Jewish children from Haredi parents, don't become like that 80% of secular or traditional Israelis, but keep the ways of 17th-Century Poland, with malism, parasitism, fanaticism and other evils, even if they themselves are good people to the most part, devout and pious. But the ways of a human life nowadays are not as simple as in the 17th Century. Some of these so many children may indeed come out of that limited worldview, and while keeping beeing good Jews, open up to modernity in shades and nuances. Nowadays, Haredim are in collision course with the majority of Israelis, who don't want their coercion on their free, western, modern lifestyle. In the diaspora, -outside Israel- Jewish streams are very progressive, liberal, women rabbis, egalitarian in every way, and open to the mainstream societies in which they live, like in the Czech Republic for example. Best regards, Fortuna Benmayor, Cartagena de Indias, Colombia.
is amazingly similar in the mindsets: locked somewhere in medieval history, and not open to ANY interpretation... And the future of the western world is endangered by the results...
The main difference is that Haredim don't go around killing people in the name of Gd. For me that is significant.
maybe absence and segregation makes the heart grow fonder? And the reproductive business more attractive?
Gender segregation is legal in some places. Israel chose its league.
"A public transportation operator, like any other person, does not have the right to order, request or tell women where they may sit simply because they are women," Supreme Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein wrote in his ruling. "They must sit wherever they like." THANK YOU ANAT HOFFMAN.
There is also gender segregation there.
Laws, democracy, human rights... They are BS. What orthodox Israelis and settlers want is the law in Israel. Puhahaha. They are the mullahs of Israel.
"A public transportation operator, like any other person, does not have the right to order, request or tell women where they may sit simply because they are women," Supreme Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein wrote in his ruling. "They must sit wherever they like." YOUR GLEEFUL ANTI-ISRAEL EMOTIONS TRIGGERED A VEY STUPID RESPONSE.
Why are religious people so scared by women??? That's insane!
My (non-religious) daughter would at times travel to Hebrew University from the Galilee on one of these buses. She told us the the atmosphere was so intimidating that no woman would dare to make any kind of protest against the seating segregation because of the fear. They all sat quietly in the back. Once, in winter, a window was left open in the men's section and although suffering from the cold air pouring into the bus, not one single woman would "dare" to even ask the men to close it let alone get up and close it themselves. Such was the intimidation on the bus.They endured the whole journey from the Galilee to Jerusalem with the window open. Now, after this ruling, explain to me who is going to police each and every bus so that this does not happen again a million times over?
But, if a government took individuals' rights seriously, undercover operators (perhaps with hidden microphones) would be the ones mutterred threats to. breath breath
If MANY women sit on box-seats (seat on front of bus) on Mehadrim lines, result will be like in racist southern US states. Broken segregation. Only it will work - don´t afraid, women! One problem maybe will come. Orthodox women are identifically intolerant like orthodox men. If some women of other groups of israeli society will come to help that haredi women, there will be conflict. So, they must fight their war theirselves.
We're marching backwards to the Middle Ages with banners blazing. Shame on you Supreme Court. You are no longer supreme.
In Israel ? There never was one as I see it ,...
The court said that it is illegal not legal. Read the case itself, not this misleading report!
Test out the new system sit in the front of the bus but wear a flak jacket and helmet lol
... but in charedi areas that would require a referee or a policeman on every bus... is the government or the local authority prepared to finance such a a 'democratic' endeavour...?
There is some of Pontius Pilatus hand washing here. To operationalize this ruling is leaving women undefended in the middle of a Haredi jungle, where the one who shouts louder may have the last saying.
There's this saying that comes to mind: "The law is an Ass" (that's in the sense of Donkey, not the anatomy, but the anatomy analogy will also do just fine). Let them try to force ME to "get to the back"
What did the court decide?? Segregation is illegal unless all the parties agree to it? But, does the court seriously think that a woman getting on one of these busses who does not want to sit in the back will not be subject to harrassment? This "decision" iis simply a decision not to make a decision.
What should a woman do if she doesn't volunteer to be segregated? Sit at the front and be spat on? Wait for another bus? The High Court has now approved segregation de facto. Civic rules in Israel are now less civilised than in Iran.
... so, there is no coercion, only a perfectly unprosecutable gender discrimination on the taxpayer's dime
she sit where ever she like because she payd the same price for the busride like anyone els and if some on tell her sit in the back she just have to say: go to hell
once there is no logical possibility for a two states for two people solution I think the only possible way to get out of the peace paradox is to divide the land of Palestine or Israel to two states one for the fanatic religious people Jews Moslems and Christians they share the same concernes and behaviors and dreams. and a second state for the non religious Israelis and Palestinians
let all those fanatic share their fanatism as they like and Secular jews,Christians and Muslims live their Free life in peace. The end of the story!
Your suggestion of a two state solution for Jews harkens back to the days of Israel and Judah. Why is it that Jews can't even get along with each other?
You cannot make a ruling and ask people to self-police the issue. The judge should have declared it simply illegal if that's the way he wants it to be carried out. I don't understand how a judge can rule in such a non-judicial manner. I thought that the court was the last hope of qualified leadership in this country but I guess I was wrong.
making women sit seperate from men on buses is MEDEVIL....... it reminds me of the way arab men treat their women !!!!!!!!!!
The haredim should see how absurd the segregation is and that it is not a show of modesty but to the contrary a show of weakness, not worthy of our culture.
With more and more religious parties involved in the Knesset and gaining power through a corrupt coalition government, the chareidim are becoming bolder and bolder in passing more laws to benefit themselves and to run the lives of all Israelis. They have already managed to takeover the Ministry of the Interior, all life-cycle events, etc. When will Israel wake up and kick the bums out of the government and cease to fund their Rabbis and parasitic Yeshivah students and their families unless they decide to recognize the state of Israel and send their men and woment to fight in the IDF like the rest of Israel's men and women?
from Zimbabwe?Their expulsion?
Even if someone else does something wrong, it doesn't justify Israeli wrongdoings. Please!
in uniform for sitting at the front of the bus. What chance have normal decent Israeli women have sitting at the front of the bus? This is a cop out by the Israeli government
hard, making sure that their attackers pay an immediate price for their illegal actions. It also means that the attackers can now be identified so they can be arrested, judged and punished.
Welcome back to the middle ages...
and it is another setback for modern Israeli society
back to plaintiffs, rather than to makr a corageius decision. They do it all the time.
Do they think that their sexual urge is such that they would be unable to control themselves? Perhaps it is the Shetiles.They are supposed to cover the real hair to make women unattractive,but they are often MORE appealing.Seriously though, I just dont get it.
Israel is becoming a religious Iranian style theocracy a little more everyday. Waiting for the decree that Moslems have to wear a crescent moon and Christians a cross.
Just because the newspapers trumpet every little instance of intolerance because everything which happens in this tiny country in under the world's magnifying glass, doesn't mean it's prevalent in society, which it certainly is not. There are lots of neighborhoods, ethnicities, religious practices and whatnot all over Israel and friction is inevitable, just as it is in the U.S. and anywhere else there is religious tolerance, to be settled by the courts. Guess why there's no such issue in Tehran for their High Court to consider, genius.
Do they compare? Do you want Israel to be at the same level of Iran? Compare with a northern European democracy, not with china or iran!
Israel is combatting the cavernary forces, and this ruling is part of it.
Moslems and Cristians wear already their symbols. You should come to Israel to see it.
The discrimination is against women fullstop.
Actually most Israeli Muslims feel more comfortable on gender segregated buses. It's not just religious Jews that chilonim have spent the past 60 years dicating wetern mores to. If you want to live in Europe, go there.
Dadgum Chris you got a great idea, we should start that right away.
Or less of a concern? RIDICULOUS!!!