Livni: Israel cannot accept Arab peace initiative in current form

He can't accept that, in the ME (not just Israel), Jews, Christians and Muslims tend to live in different towns because of different Sabbaths, associated work weeks and other info. Yet Jaffo, Haifa and other Israeli towns have mixed populations while the Pal Muslims have been clearing Christians out of Bethlehem. He then mutters about "holy sitres of occupied East Jerusalem" without admitting that Jews weren't allowed to visit the Old City '48-67, barred by Muslims, while Christian and Muslim sites in Jerusalem have been protected by Israel. He won't discuss one of the first things Pals did in 2000s "intifida" is to destroy the Tomb of Joseph. Nor will he discuss the Pal occupation and desecration of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. He's a hypocrite, a liar and clearly an antisemite.

That's why you're a puppy. "those who stand for equality in Palestine are somehow 'Antisemetic'." No, they're called Israeli. It's interesting that a man calling for "equality" can't clearly call for: 1) The Arab League, PLO, Hamas, Fatah and IJ to unconditionally end the wars they unconditionally began 2) Both Jewish refugees from Arab countries (800,000) and Arab refugees from Israel (472,000) to receive mutual and simultaneous compensation 3) The PA and PLO to change their Charters to accept Israel, accept Jewish citizens and promote equality 4) The PA and PLO to quit demanding another ethnic cleansing of Jews from the land they want as a nation Notice, however, that he doesn't. He also won't discuss that a Jew can't set foot in Saudi Arabia, own property in Jordan, or do almost anything in most Arab nations while Christians and Muslims are full citizens of Israel. He also ignores the discussion on "colonialism" because he can't accept the truth w/o letting go on hate.

Mr. Teich's non sensical rant has now inferred that those who stand for equality in Palestine are somehow "Antisemetic". I cannot see how standing up against the racisism , discrimination, and favortism practiced by the Israeli goverment in occupied Palestine can be considered as such. We must examine facts on the ground. I have one question for all readers. Would I as a non Jew be permitted to live in one of the colonial settlements in Palestine or would I live with the Moslems and Christians in segregated ghettos surrounded by concrete walls topped with barbed wire. Would I be able to visit the holy sitres of occupied East Jerusalem? If I visit Palestine could I travel directly or do I have to transit through the occupier's home country? There is freedom in Palestine for one group and one group only. All others are second class back of the bus individuals.

"Apartheid". Point to one Israeli law that treats Israeli-Arabs the same way SA treated blacks. You can't. They are equal under the law. Learn the meaning of words. Starvation among Pals has been reported before but never documented. Most importantly, the puppy refuses to admit the problems are because of the war declared by the Arab League, PLO, PA, Fatah and Hamas. He blames the victim. He doesn't even comprehend that my reference to '93 was to compare conditions before and after Oslo. After the Pals took over, things got worse. That's a proven, but war will do that. Most importantly, notice how he refuses to address the facts in 408 & 413. He just repeats the same lies because accepting the facts would destroy his fantasy of hate and antisemitism. The puppy's done a good job educating the lurkers about how little hate filled fools think.

"from a nearby country confisgate the best hilltops and river valleys from the natives." Yup, that's what happened in '48 all right, when Jordan invaded and ethnically cleansed all Jews. However, since there's no 2nd Pal State and no border, that land is still disputed and Israel isn't a "nearby country." "refuse to let anyone who is not their religion live within their gated communities." You mean the Arabs who massacred the Jews of Hebron and don't want them to come back? Or maybe the Muslims of Bethlehem, who've been evicted most of the Christians? Maybe it's the death penalty law the PA has if an Arab sells land to a Jew? Yeah, must be that. "road network" Nope. Everyone could use all roads until too many Jews were killed on some of them, so those specific roads are limited access. Paul seems to think killing Jews is appropriate. "natives (Palestinians)" Then why did UNWRA define a refugee as someone who'd only been here '46-48?

Mr Teich, When heavily armed extremist from a nearby country confisgate the best hilltops and river valleys from the natives, and then refuse to let anyone who is not their religion live within their gated communities, would not that be an considered a racist "occupation" ? Not only do the ocupiers have their own road network in Palestine, they also have their own segregated neighborhoods, schools, stores, jobs, and recreational facilities. The natives (Palestinians) are prohibited from using these amenities due to Apartheid restrictions and policies set by the occuping power (Israeli goverment). It may be helpful for you to gain some literacy by looking at a recent UN report documenting starvation and malnutrition amoung Arab (not Jewish) residents of Palestine due to the brutal , belligerent and inhumane Israeli occupation. Former President Carter's new book about the Apartheid policies in Palestine will also inform you of recent(not 1993) conditions there. Happy reading!

Arabs will relaunch a 2002 land-for-peace offer to end the decades long conflict with Israel at a summit in Saudi Arabia later this month but without the changes Israel has been pushing, Arab League Secretary General Amr Musa said Sunday. | http://tinyurl.com/2zg2fj

1) look up "colonial" and explain how that applies to Jews in Judea and Samaria. 2) accept that Israelis don't have "their own road network" in J&S. Rather, continued Arab violence on some roads, where they regularly killed and injured Jews, was responded to with bans. Explain how that was improper. 3) If the Pals are "native", please explain why UNWRA found it necessary to define a refugee as someone who'd only lived here '46-8. Two years is an immigrant and not a native. 4) "starving". In '93, the Pals had a higher standard of living than the Arab world. Then the PA took over. Explain how Israel is to blame for that. Yup, when I grew up, the US educational system taught us to look at all facts, rather than just those that served bigoted purposes. You've proven the system's fallen on hard times.

Yes Mr. Teich our schools here need improvement. I was not taught how the colonial masters of Palestine (Israeli's) have their own road network, routinely seize the native's land, deny freedom of movement, deny access to education, health services, and housing based on religion, and confisgate precious water resources. All while the natives (Palestinians) are starving. Yes Sir, the American educational system and our corporate controlled media very seldom mention this American financed and supported tragedy.

An air force suld be used against an air force or military forces not against homes and civilians to force them to leave their homes and countryl Peace and Unity

What are you talking about Israel of 1948. 1967. 2007 ? What are you asking them to accept? Peace and Unity

What is his function exactly? As near as I can tell, he is a professional traveler and attender of meetings. He will meet anyone anywhere. Accomplish anything? No. He goes to Jerusalem, then to Gaza, then to Cairo, then to Damascus, then to Riyadh, with a few side trips to Amman. Then he starts a new series of meetings all over again, at which he always agrees to meet again later. What a useless "head of state." Never has a "head of state" conspired so openly to undermine his own people. Why do they tolerate him?

Saudi Arabia won't allow non-Muslims to be citizens or Jews to visit. Jordan has a law making it illegal for Jews to buy land. the PA has the same law, with the death penalty as punishment. Iran has specific laws pertaining to what its Jews can and can't do. Yet the idiot from Illinois says a country with equality before the law for all its citizens is the "apartheid" one. How far the school systems of that State have fallen...

It should be no surprise that the apartheid government of Israel will reject living within its borders. That would grant the natives of Palestine equality , something which Israel never will accept!

Israeli people are so intelligent why dont they make a peace deal .otherwise they all should go to moon and leave the world for foolish

"Guess what Israelis! You`re sitting on our homes! We haven`t forgotten. We never will!" Perhaps because you Arabs lack anything resembling the "Gesetz Nr. 303 über die Aufnahme und Eingliederung deutscher Flüchtlinge" (14.2.1947) or the "Gesetz über die weitere Verbesserung der Lage der ehemaligen Umsiedler der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik" (8.9.1950)??? Just imagine the +17 million displaced Germans and their descendents (by "palestinian fertility rates", they now would number 120 millions...) never left the Jamlitz, Landsberg or Theley camps but, out of there, sending thousands of suicide bombers into "Sudetenland" or "Schlesien". Just imagine.

"Colonize" That's funny. Here's a simple test for you: 1) When was the area called Judea and Samaria? 2) When was the area first called the West Bank Since you won't answer, I will: 1) 3,000 years ago, approx. 2) 1948, when Jordan invaded and ethnically cleansed all Jews. So what the Leb liar is saying is that ethnically cleansing the indigenous people makes it Arab, as Arabs have shown in jihad throughout history. As for 2002, all Arab proposals have included the RoR and a unilateral demand for the armistice line to become a border. The Saudi Plan's initial text didn't include RoR, but when they went to your country to formalize it with other Arab nations, the RoR was demanded and added. Yup, BS lies again. Go back to the hole you crawled out of (that little web site where you can feel safe, not having to hear reality).

RRW = Rabid Right Wing, used (by me) to describe someone WOT (Way Out There) or a FOE - Fell Off the Edge on the right side of the political spectrum. Applied more often than not to the super-orthodox (not always, though), and the nationalist-religous (always, everywhere, anyone - e.g., Talibans, Chechens and of course, a few Jews). Suggested variations (just for you, because I know you are nice at heart, even if my opinions roil you no end): RLW = Rabid Left Wing or Retro Light Weight. The former can also be WOT, or FOE -just on the other side. The later can be used against anyone you disagree with, but suspect they may be just a bit soft - either in the head or the heart. or you can just use the first before morning coffee and the later, after a nice glass of wine. SLEW - Sissy LEft Wing - can be used to describe the Mushy left wing misguided types you feel sorry for (best used to describe AM's for Appeasement Meisters). Can make up more, of course. may be I will, for Purim.

excellent advice. in practise for Israel that would mean not returning to indefensible geneva inititive lines, and Israel explaining its position. Duncan

I recall the Pals arguing about unilateral disengagement by marking borders using the separation fence; and know Israel is refusing peace offer by saying we need to negotiate. What a bunch of hypocrites. If Israel really wanted peace you would think they would first stop putting kindle on the fire by expanding settlements. Then they would have an argument about have security before any negations.

feelings of the overwhelming majority of Jews, in Israel and abroad. Thank you!!!

Now - let's define so everyone else knows what it means too...

Everthing she said seems to be a firm diplomatic stance on Israel's behalf, looking at the photo of her,when she was in her 20s my heart would go BOOM BOOM!

Since I am up, I might as well ask you whar RRW stands for. I mean, the R could stand for so many things.

My post was making a mockery of an earlier post by Dutch (aka Doris Cardigan). All I did was swap out Isreali/Leaders and replaced them with pal/leaders. Now if you think my post was ludicrous (which it was) it was no more ludicrous than what Dutch was posting. PS: Also intersting to note that while one Isreali General had had to make a quick exit from England none of the hamas officials have gone to a non muslim country as they to would be arrested for terror charges

Well the great thing about a forum like talkback is the exposure we can get to ideas and people that we otherwise would not,it is a great learning experiance.It is important for people like you to have direct exposure "to our side of the story" we often dont like what we hear and no doubt others dont like what they hear from us.But this the reality, the challenge is to make our reality better.I encourage you not only to read jewish sources but to read good commentary on them.They are complex documents with many levels going on at the same time.We are an ancient civilisation and have gone through many incarnations, our story is a very deep thing.Regards

Bev, I know you are not Jewish but since you are definitely pro-Israel, you would be most welcome at the Shalom site. There are already 2 Canadians there, Ronnie of Toronto and a Peter from Montreal.

..."THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE HATED BECAUSE THEY`RE CHOSEN BY GOD..." That's exactly what happen. Your arguments turn against yourself, baby. JEWS (THE COSEN ONE) are hated because they thought they are above the law (any human law and international law). NO WONDER THERE ARE STILL MANY ANTI_SEMITIC AROUND THE WORLD.

Well you didnt know me when I was 25 either did you?What I can handle is not really a discussion for this board is it!!I would guess your Chinese Horoscope is a Fire Horse.You have spirit and quick and interesting responses I will give you that.As for "Danite what will we do with you" Well thats my department ( G-d Willing) leave it to me!!That was a good and unexpected response you gave there.

The end point of negotiatiosns have been clear allways: A two stae solution Palestin and Isarel living in peace... the details must be the outcome of negotiations.. The and thing is that when Israel chose as leader the man that went to unprecedented steps to engage in negotiations and offered the palestiniasn a very reasonable deal.. the palestinians showed us their true face: terrorism, indoctrination of children into hate and suicide bombings etc etc.... Hey you guys have fooled many people, including me.. I was a big fan of Oslo, and argued endelessly in its favor.. How naive I was.... oh boy.. how gulible... how inocent... but I, as well as meny others have learned.. not only about you palestinians, but also about the Jew hatters that where hidding all over Europe, Australia, Canada, and in our own environments... thanks god we found out!

The peace deal between Israel and the palestinians exists already and it's called the Geneva Initiative http://www.geneva-accord.org/Accord.aspx?FolderID=33&lang=en All this empty talk,comments,the usual vague,ambiguous posturing and the eternal war of words waged by both sides are nothing but useless beating around the proverbial bush [not necessarily the presidential one] I suspect both Israelis and Palestinian know this but they avoid saying so.The Israelis because they fear that Palestinians will reject it and start another Intifada.The Palestinians because they fear that Israelis might accept the GI and they will have to renounce their fantazies about the right of return... Is anyone game enough to read the Geneva Initiative and comment on it in this talkback?

I believe I heard about this somewhere before, but you put it well. Alas, our job on these boards is to repeat the same message over and over, even when all evidence points against RRW's ever being willing to cocede this point or, if they do, recognize that it is not the most wholesome position out there. Tiresome indeed, but necessary. If we all go home - they will have the boards to themselves, and then what? Actually, that gives me an idea.....

well, I suppose you could say my suggestion regarding the eminent return of israelis to US and/or Europe was a bit tongue-in-cheek. But I assume you realized that, because if not, we have a problem here. Please elaborate on why this is different though than say "integrating" paslestinians into alien societies which by now, speak in diofferent dialects and have completely different outlook on life. AS FOR THE QUOTE REGARDING THE "INTEGRATION" OF PALESTINIANS, this is something someone named Ross said in 1957 (that's a bit before my time, you know). Why would this mean anything to anyone?

to catch you this evening. I wasn't talking about your Shalom site. Visited it once but didn't feel I should post as I am neither muslim or Jew. I was following a rowan berkeley who posted some pretty nasty stuff that Haaretz posted, and went to some hate blogs and a Nazi site where you didn't need to be a member. I discovered how he bragged about his nazi affilliation. I have recognized a couple of other people using the same phrases, and will be firing some further info. soon. Can't worry about the eclipse, as I am exhausted from a three hour drive home from work in an ice storm (usually 20 min.)

taking Pals before the Hague. I pointed out a short time ago Bibi suggested Iran's president should be hauled there for threats. An Israeli general ran out of Europe, according to Haaretz, a short time before because he faced arrest. The Hague would not be at all sympathetic to claims about the Pals, they would be more interested in arresting Israeli leaders, starting with Sharon, for war crimes. Lebanon would probably be in line as a complainant too. Do you seriously believe the Hague would entertain requests from Israel under the present circumstances; their request is like the pot calling the kettle black. Regards.

Danite: "If the views of some Jews could give anti semitism some legitimacy as you say, do the actions of some Muslims give Islamo phobia some legitimacy? No? I didnt think so." Dana: actually, surprise, surprise, the answer is Yes Danite: "Typical hypocrasy!" Dana; whatever Danite: "I bet you are not one day older than 25 are you?" Dana: Thanks for the compliment, but you couldn't handle me at 25 (already had 2 husbands by then and 1 PhD; let's just say it was the beginning. You know the saying: so many _____ so little time). Now, I AM getting a bit concerned. First you call me precious, then pompous, then precious again, then you keep alternating my gender, and now you insist on disclosing my true age. Coupled with my other physical proclivities (you know - dance, adventure travel, saving the whales, and all that), you sure the RRW's on these boards can handle that? I mean, many are not spring chickens any more..... Danite, danite, what shall we do with you....

I dont recall talking about Ahmadinajead??? you must be refering to someone else.

Nice post gabe 1. have you considered avoiding these boards for a while? I am very concerned for your health. Your post reads like a scream, a cry for help. Such anger is really not so good for the arteries. may i recommend some nice long nature walks, or if you are not in goood enough physical shape, can do work on some puzzles, play chess or go on a cruise. Did you see the studies which show strong correlation between hate and propensity to cardiovascular disease and cancer? Do you need some cruise recommendations? you know - in addition to my chief scientist duties at the cyborg factory, and my road show hobbies, I also dabble in adventure travel, match making (all five genders) and general universal mischief. Interested? BTW - bad news - I just bought me a football team. Don't know why. hate that game. looks like I'll be sharing my learning experience soon. gabe 1 - perhaps you could help....

Igot a message from Chanah about a poster I commented on and responded back. She expects me to read between lines of something I was never exposed to, but I thought was very good by reputation. As I told her, I praised the posting based on the post without, apparently, any history she is alluding to. Hey, how long have you guys been posting on Haaretz gnawing on one another, years? Geez, you won't have to put up with me that long cause seems like the same posters are going round and round in circles and the argument will play out empirically for all to see. I am not familiar at all with Jewish holy books, but will pick up copies and try to read through them. My comments are based on occupation and treatment of the Pals. Period. No hate, just concern about nukes and our sons and daughters over there dying, apparently for naught. I don't often agree with posters, always 2 sides to a story. This is the first time I have talked to anybody overseas;quite surprised what I am reading.

1. Recognize 2. Stop settlement 3. neotiate How's that? Let's try now the rest of your message: " If Israeli leaders are unwilling to recognize palestine, they are not partners in peace process. - If israel's leaders are thiefs (as Olmert/Sharon and too many others to mention) or terrorists (as IDF-led assasins or Stern troopers - insert any name of IDF commander - halutz etc.), they cannot be trusted. - If Israel's political leaders are unwilling or unable to stop persecution and property theft, what could palestinians negotiate with them?" As you can see for yourself - perfect symmetry achieved again (I took the libery of correcting typos and syntax. Hope you don't mind).

I don't understand why you and some other RRW's keep advocating this nonsensical idea of TRANSFERING 3M palestinians to Jordan where they are regarded as much foreigners as you are. Just as jewish people in israel are only tenuously related to each other (say the ones from morocco vs ones from germany) so are relations between different origin palestinians plenty remote. There are some family connections but then you probably have family relations in Poland that you don't even know about. Whether you like it or not, the palestinians of the west bank and gaza have emerged as a DISTINCT NEW PEOPLE with a national agenda and a culture all their own. There are no other palestinians in the world as similar to jews in their outlook and political culture. In truth, if you took your eyes away from old dusty books for a second or your RW sites, you'll see that these new palestinians are more like you than you are like other israelis or Jews. Accept it - palestine is a new country

"We are going to grind them into the ground. We are going to push them into the sea. We're going to wipe out Israel--no one will ever remember them again." That, Walid, is the English transcript of what President Gamal Abdel Nasser said on Egyptian Radio in 1967. Your using William James Martin's discredited article to suggest that the only reference to the into the sea part was by Ben Gurion shows not only a lack of enlightenment on your part but a willingness to utilize the crackpot efforts of the Martins and Morris' whose agenda is singularly anti-Israel. As for the abject silliness of the contention that "half the refugees were pushed out before partition" I would refer you to the AbuGhosh clan around Jerusalem and the hundreds of village leaders in the Galillee and the Negev all of whom stayed; all of whom worked with the Israelis to help repulse the Egyptians and all the other Arab nations who closed in in 1948. It would be nice if you served your arguments with some reality.

the Talmud, guess I will have to go to ebay and buy a copy! So now, I don't get your drift, so please explain. Your posts suggests the Talmud is evil???? Well, I will go and read KA's post again; I dunno about all his history. I read a post and assume MOST people don't have a motive other than expressing what they think. I am afraid I don't see spooks and whatnot everywhere and I accept posters for who they purport to be. I will take a look at some of his posts, but hey nobody agrees with mine either. First step will be to order to copy of the Talmud. Isn't that one of the books under Moses, and the Torah? How could either possibly be evil? Looks like some posts were knocked out cause I am not #285 but saw my name. I will look in tomorrow for your response as I am off to the casino. Regards.

And you know I welcome it with a chesire grin. not sure why you want to give me the satisfaction though. Every milieu where people come together, including annonymous ones as talk back forums, thrive on labels and indeed, cannot exist without them, because there is no option of having the full measure of a person, as an actual human encounter does. So, let's say, that in your case Lynn, I only know you through your positions, not as you are as a complete human being. In fact, I don't know even the most basic things, such as gender, age, physical attributes or personal history. Neither will I ask (and almost never do, unlike others here who seem to crave a contact that these forums are not meant to fulfil). Therefore, knowing you as a strictly disembodied voice of a particular bend on issues that may be abstract or not, all I have at my disposal is a label. Better posters get richer labels, that's all. However, I do know you now regret ever raising the topic of labels...

I am glad to see your as usually bright & to the point explanation to Eric here. I tried to do so philosophically, as a matter of fact tried three other posts, but this is one of those `on the edge` topics, when intelligent or reality logic can somewhat override or disturb `happy to see any peace initiative, therefore the rational is that it absolutely must go through with no preconditions, ifs or buts` ideology. And who is better than Israeli side to see it through, no matter what she must do or if she must do it alone. Therefore I now understand that rogue critique of the Arab peace initiative was not appropriate here, although I have seen the paper proudly demonstrate their freedom of speech mantra by posting suggestions of Israelis transfer somewhere to Australia or another galaxy because the paper is intelligent to realize the lunatic rubbish is seen exactly as such & does not present intelligent chalenge, despite that the very core of the rules on posting had been broken here.

You are being much more polite this evening than you were in the afternoon.Good for you! I knew you could do it.Keep up the good work! Your friend Danite

She is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo right!!Smart lady that ChanahS you could learn alot from her.Yessiree you sure can!!

Duncan, even better: Stay alive and popular..:) Buenas noches.

the devil is behind all those remains by the canaanites---that's why they're haunting the middle east.

So why does palestinian population supports Hamas? Is that logical? Anyway nothing is logical over there so far. Palestinians favor peace with Israel, and vote for Hamas. ok, give me a moment of brake

Venturing back in time to that summit of the 22 leaders of so-called progressive democratic liberal post-modernistic states (yawn yawn- Omid), I recall a tragic terrorist attack that took place only a few hours after the initiative was announced. Now from an initial look you would think the initiative is completely sound and reasonable. Think again: It states that arab countries will normalize ties with Israel once it withdraws from Gaza and W.Bank, and yet it never stated that state-sponsorship of Hamas, Jihad, and terror organizations will stop. It never promised respect for Israel's rights to (at least parts of) Jerusalem; it never promised an end to claims of return for socalled Pal1948 refugees, an absurd claim meant to destroy Israel's Jewish character. It was never meant to provide Israel with tangible benefits, much like the multiculti consitution recently forged by Arabs. Fulfillment of Quartet demands is the only way forward- so stop fooling around araboos & cut the charade.

The pint was that you shouldn't complain about Israel's overflights when Lebanon did not fulfil a single commitments following the Israeli pullout and following this last war.

I wish i could exept such invitation... This summer i had a luck to perform on a festival in Denmark with artists from Arab countrys and also from Lebanon. Somehow a mirical happened and we could talk to each other about art (as well) I would say was pretty nice and normal. Some told me they would love to visit in Israel if there was a way. BUT they told me they could never return to their countrys. I gues if i went to visit you i could never return to mine as well. I would become a captive.

You're way off the mark. You can agree with KA as much as you wish. I am telling you that it says more about you than you are willing to admit about yourself. We are familiar with KA and his perverted theories. You say good for him, that would be true if he was genuinely interested in learning about Judaism. I even told him to go to learn from a rabii. But his main aim to to scrounge around for bits and pieces of the Talmud to use for denigrating and discrediting and demonizing the JEwish religion. He keeps claiming that Israel is a Talmudic state based on these evils. Are you beginning to get my drift??

Dear Alicia, I thoroughly enjoyed your responses and I am sorry the truth hurts. However, I feel the real bullies are in the Israeli Army and government who keep 3.5 million Palestinians under a military siege daily and deny them their essential freedoms. Please read what the former Attorney General of Israel, Michael Ben Yair had to say about this: "We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one -- pro- gressive, liberal in Israel; and the other cruel, injurious -- in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day". (http://www.seruv.org.il/english/article.asp?msgid=77&type=article) In addition, please read the column by a former IDF officer on how Israel's esteemed Justice, Judge Barak not only perpetuated this oppressive system but became its supreme commander. (http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=18356). Lastly, please read the results on the ground by Dr. Alice Rothchild who visited Gaza last year with a Jewish-American delegation: ?we witnessed the devastating consequences for the civilian population of years of Israeli military operations. The checkpoints, closures and the severe restriction on movement and economic activity have contributed to rising unemployment, poverty accom- panied by unusually high rates of infant mortality, acute and chronic malnutrition and inadequate outpatient and hospital care?. ( http://www.vopj.org/conflict22.htm .) Now if Tzipi Livni and other Israeli officials think for a minute people around the world like myself are going to tolerate this cruel and inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people they best think again. Many Thanks, Dutch P.S. you have a great future in writing.

That plan exists, the PA didn`t take 95 percent of land, and the rest Israel wnated to exchange land. The main problem is the Al-Aksa Dome, and Jerusalem

That plan exists, the PA didn`t take 95 percent of land, and the rest Israel wnated to exchange land. The main problem is the Al-Aksa Dome, and Jerusalem

The borders proposed by the geneva initiative will not let Israel be militarily defensible according to us military experts. as for world opinion. The world did not nothing to save Israel, when it was in grave danger after an arab aggressive war in '73. Better to be alive than popular duncan

two nations(esau and jacob) were in rebekah's womb.who was the older?it was esau, right.but the bible says, THE ELDER(ESAU) WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER(JACOB)......esau did not care about the birthright.jacob had the BIRTHRIGHT in the first place----rebekah helped out GOD by helping jacob to trick isaac and esau.romans 9:13....but ESAU have I hated.malachi 1:2.....was not ESAU, jacob's brother? saith the Lord; yet I loved Jacob,...3. ....and I hated Esau........... ......esau didn't care about the BIRTHRIGHT,but jacob care about it.God knew in advance who cared about HIS WORK, HIS WORD WAS RIGHT...where are the descendants of esau now---arabs or palestinians, if they were---they sure departed from loving the TRUE GOD OF ISRAEL.

"You ommitted to mention - also results from the same poll - that 70% of Palestinians are in favor of peace with Israel. This means they acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, if there is peace instead of subjugation.. " Possibly it means they interpret peace as cessation of hostilities with the zionist entity. that way they are not recognising the right of Israel to exist, but still will not actively engage in terror duncan

"What is your CV to be criticising such a highly intelligent lady" - Johnny did you even read my initial post, this lady is arguing borders cannot be pre-determined but must be negotiated. She represents a country that has illegally annexed Jerusalem. Cant you recognise the hypocrisy in this? Not a good sign of intelligence. "Hamas spokesman like you to select our leaders" - I dont work or speak for anyone but myself. And Israel doesnt need any help selecting leaders, its doing a fine job of it already ; ) "You know too much about the Middle East Dispute to be a typical Portuguese resident" - Whereas you seem to fit the typical Texan stereotype. What a funny world we live in. Ive had the pleasure of living and studying in many countries, try it some day. I cant imagine living in Texas to be too good for your health.

We know a lot about the Canaanites and their religious practices and culture. Did you ever hear about the ancient city of Ugarit? It is located on the Syrian coast in a place called Ras Shamra today. Lot's of written remains. You must have heard of the Phoenicians too, didn't you? They were also Canaanites. Lots of remains in Lebanon. And go visit the ruins of Carthage in Tunisia. Also Canaanite culture. The south of Syria (where Israel is) was less developed, but there are also remains there. There is always a question if they are Israelite remains or Canaanite. (According to latest archeologist thinking, the Israelites developed out of the local population, including the Canaanites).

"Dictionary definitions of the word "border" are irrelivant. What is important is what international law has to say and there all sorts of categories from ceasefire lines to armistice lines to demilitarized zones to borders." - Jeff Sometimes legal definitions may vary from every-day definition. But where is it written that Armistice Lines are not internationally-recognized "temporary borders"? Can you supply me with the UN's "definition"? "It is beyond your power to redesignate an armistice line as a border without the two belligerent parties mutually agreeing to that and no third party can decide the issue." - Jeff N I think you still don't get it. The Armistice line is a temporary border. Still a border. And didn't I mention that it was called the border in Israel itself? We haven't heard of the dictionary you are using. P.S. I know the map colors used in Israeli maps. I didn't know they were mandated by the UN. Do you know of any such common "convention"?

My objection was to redefining an issue out of existence, which is what Jeff N does habitually. I was not discussing any peace plan here, just the legal standing of the Green Line. Are the Palestinians ready for a deal? I think they are more ready than Israel under the present government. In the recent past, Israel was more ready (under Rabin and Barak), but not now. Olmert came to power believing in a unilateral approach. Does not look like a peace deal.

"Israel does have the right to exist" - Yes of course Israel has the right to exist but only within its internationally recognised boundaries? Does Germany have the right to exist in Poland? Perhaps I should move to Spain and take over pockets of land and call it Portugal? If anyone disputes me I can just say that god gave this land to me. Petra I am constantly arguing for Israel's illegal settlers to return to Israel, now why would I argue this if I did not recognise an Israeli state?

going to be hard to do that all the way from Washington. Hope for Abbas the best Pals have to date

"Lebanon has violated all its commitments regarding Hezbollah and its border with Israel" - All of them you say, and Israel is the innocent party here. Let me repeat there is nothing in the latest UN Resolution that pertains to the disarming of Hezbollah. "Siniora begged for peace by crying on TV" - Whilst your country dropped hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs over civilian areas of southern Lebanon. I would much rather belong to the country crying for peace then the one hiding bombs amongst Lebanese residents.

An I thought we had realised that he is out of his league .. does not matter here we go again: Pablito, the Un resolutions do not call for Isarel to relinquish All lands captures in 1967.. but Lands captured in 1967. To hard for yopu to grasp the difference between all and some...? .. and in fact they only calls for this in the context of a permanet cesation of hostilities that would ensure secure and safe borders for all... The land was disputed and 1967 is onlty an armnistice line.. Pablito go and look this things up... no seas burito... Now when you learn some of the relevant facts you will see that is ridiculous to expect Isarel to relinquish places like the Wailling Wall .. at the same time one must find a formula to give paletinians control of their holly sites.. but thins gs nedd a lot of offort and negotiation by well meaning and INTELLIGENT people in both sides.... you see pablito.. you are way way ot of your league... por que no vas a jugar con un palito?

"Pals were created in 1967" - You do realise that Herodotus was amongst the first to determine the label 'Palaistinei' in 5BC to describe the non-Jewish inhabitants of the area. Also there are 4 million people living in the area that call themselves Palestinian. You're telling me that these people dont exist?

It is true I am relatively new to the blog, but what has that got to do with my agreeing with his post? You say he has been digging around in the Talmud, you make that sound as if it is a crime!! What is wrong with that? Well, my hats off to him for doing what he is doing by digging cause you and other Jews ought to be doingo some digging to find out why you are so far from the teachings of Moses! Yeah for KA for attempting to find out, no problem at all. Meanwhile, you condemn him and then import nazi skinheads claiming to be Jews. Seems like you and yours should be paying more attention to what's in your own backyard. Boy is that ironic; you guys deny the Pals and then go collect would be Jews who claim to be Jews who are Nazi/Jews. And you wanna condemn me and others for speaking on bad behavior. Justice is self fulfilling, don't you think, cause what goes around comes around without any input from man!

"You refuse to admit that Arabs declaring war was illegal" - David you dont get the crux of the argument here, that according to the international standard land occupied by Israel after 1967 is regarded as "Palestinian territory". This is an indisputable fact. I do not care about what Jordan did in Jerusalem, or what Germany did with the Polish borders. Stick with the issue here please, that Israel has no legal sovereignty over this Palestinian territory.

"242: I have read it. It doesnt mention Pal territory" - Well 242 certainly establishes that Israel has no sovereignty over territory occupied beyond the 1967 boundary. You want another UN resolution, then how about trying #446. "Green line...is not a border" - No but it is an internationally recognised boundary that determines where Israeli sovereignty ends and begins. This is the international standard. "Explain why you support the ethnic cleaning of Jews from Judea and Samaria" - You mean the West Bank? - I cant seem to find any place called Judea or Samaria on my globe. I dont support Israeli settlers that are living illegally on Palestinian territory, take them back to Israel. Do you support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Jerusalem? "How Israel treats its religious minorities" - So you're telling me that Israel treats all its citizens equally, regardless of religion? So an Israeli Arab can buy a house in any Israeli neighbourhood with no restrictions. Idiot!

taking Ahmadinajead to the Hague, the world is still laughing! You really don't wanna go there, do you? Geez, Sharon and many Israeli leaders would be first in the docket. Better leave that one alone. US and Israel stays FAR from the Hague and much of Europe. Remember the chubby Israeli general who ran outa Europe when he found out they were looking to arrest him. Naw, better leave that alone. Not a good forum for the Zionists at all, nosirree, it is not. I do believe you are just joking; that must be it.

Abu Firas Al Qudsi, you were discussing with the enlightened Brant things said or not said about driving people to the sea. The first and only written record of such utterance was on Oct 11, 1961 by Prime Minister David Ben Gurion in the Knesset when he said: ?The Arabs' exit from Palestine...began immediately after the UN resolution, from the areas earmarked for the Jewish state. And we have explicit documents testifying that they left Palestine following instructions by the Arab leaders, with the Mufti at their head, under the assumption that the invasion of the Arab armies at the expiration of the Mandate will destroy the Jewish state and push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive?. In fact, Abu Firas, half of what became refugees had been chased out before the war was declared and the above quote was one of many lies that followed. William James Martin wrote the full story on this in counterpunch

Howdy Erik; Israel's master plan is to physically separate the Palestinians from the Israelis as best as possible with the security barrier, advise the UN and the NGOs that they have 60 days to redirect all humanitarian to the Gaza Strip through Egypt and to the West Bank through Jordan, deny any Palestinian whatsoever from ever setting foot in Israel ever again, detect tunneling under the fence by using seismic equipment and destroying them with explosives (preferably while a few gopher terrorists are inside it), counter rocket fire over the fence with artillery and air strikes while a viable anti-rocket system is developed, make temporary military incursions and "reoccupations" as necessary, and mow down with machinegun fire the Jihadist "martyrs" in the barbed wire as they try to get into Israel. Is there anything else that you would like to know?

Sam, it is evident that those in need of medication are not the Arabs. The ones that are raving and ranting here are the Jews and yourself when you say that the borders were drawn 3000 years ago. You must have picked up that piece of history from the same book that talked about Methuselah living till the age of 969 years and the younger Lamech to only 777 years and that God's children came down to earth and made baby giants with the women of the earth. Not very reliable or accurate history.

Israel has made it clear that it is willing to accept a Palestinian state, but not a right of return (it in fact has already accepted a similar number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands as there were Palestinian refugees) and it wants some relatively minor adjustmnets to the 1948 armistice line. I fail to see what is so unreasonable about this. You suggest Israel is not a partner for peace but if this is true about Israel it is equally true of the Arabs.

Just because 70% of pals want peace with Isreal does in no way indicate (even remotely) that they recognise Israel. In fact they do not. Sarah is very correct in what she said.

"in its current form", no use shouting. Common sense has left the building.

..So what`s the Israeli master plan (except more concrete walls)?.. I believe Israeli master plan is to establish `bullet proof` from any enemy designs security system, that she is in total control of, regardless of the deceitfully generated, hatefully motivated, `spur of the moment` anti feelings or actions against her at any time, as well as her own not watered down in any way identity. After that presently she is ready to negotiate everything with everybody, provided that anybody is not deceiving in his own right, or not `holding the knife behind the back`. Now that I hope I have answered your question, can you tell me your version of what is the Arab world master plan is? I believe along with parts of the `Arab world prevailing` peaceful concept, first & foremost not to allow the above to happen for multitude of very legitimate reasons. Your explanation?

Howdy Walid; That's the first time that anyone has accused me of being "neutral" with respect to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. On the contrary, most people recognize me as being pro-Israel although sometimes I disagree with the Israeli government's policies. I'm in favor of a two-state solution because I don't think that it is in Israel's best interests to include almost 4 million hostile Palestinians within the State of Israel nor to absorb any portion whatsoever of approximately 3.5 million diaspora and equally hostile Palestinian refugees and their descendants to Israel proper. I'm in favor of the border being defined as more-or-less along the path of the security barriers subject to minor adjustments, the withdrawal of all Israeli settlements and IDF personnel from the Palestinian-side of the fence, and the closure of all traffic or commerce to or from Israel and the Palestinian Territories until futher notice. Let the Palestinians have their state and let's see what they do

We know a lot about the Canaanites and their religious practices and culture. Did you ever hear about the ancient city of Ugarit? It is located on the Syrian coast in a place called Ras Shamra today. Lot's of written remains. You must have heard of the Phoenicians too, didn't you? They were also Canaanites. Lots of remains in Lebanon. And go visit the ruins of Carthage in Tunisia. Also Canaanite culture. The south of Syria (where Israel is) was less developed, but there are also remains there. There is always a question if they are Israelite remains or Canaanite. (According to latest archeologist thinking, the Israelites developed out of the local population, including the Canaanites).

"Israel is apparently not a partner for peace." - Erik from Sweden I don't know about "Israel" but certainly not the current government. Peace is a dirty word to the Olmert government. They won't even talk about it.

"Dictionary definitions of the word "border" are irrelivant. What is important is what international law has to say and there all sorts of categories from ceasefire lines to armistice lines to demilitarized zones to borders." - Jeff Sometimes legal definitions may vary from every-day definition. But where is it written that Armistice Lines are not internationally-recognized "temporary borders"? Can you supply me with the UN's "definition"? "It is beyond your power to redesignate an armistice line as a border without the two belligerent parties mutually agreeing to that and no third party can decide the issue." - Jeff N I think you still don't get it. The Armistice line is a temporary border. Still a border. And didn't I mention that it was called the border in Israel itself? We haven't heard of the dictionary you are using. P.S. I know the map colors used in Israeli maps. I didn't know they were mandated by the UN. Do you know of any such common "convention"?

My objection was to redefining an issue out of existence, which is what Jeff N does habitually. I was not discussing any peace plan here, just the legal standing of the Green Line. Are the Palestinians ready for a deal? I think they are more ready than Israel under the present government. In the recent past, Israel was more ready (under Rabin and Barak), but not now. Olmert came to power believing in a unilateral approach. Does not look like a peace deal.

Israel does not dictate the borders to Pals. Israel is simply refuses to even contemplate on Pals demands to where the border should be, regardless of past lines, for her very legitimate concern of the strength of her own security in her own hands, regardless of Arab world feelings or `mood swings`. The same goes for the rejection of the refugee return concept or anything watering down Israeli identity within. Which totally contradicts Arab world vision, at least for the moderate Arab states, if not anymore in total destruction of Israel but very clear or visible evidence to the Islamic masses that the promises were kept, all the `sacrifices` were significant, & `revenge` & `pride & honor` of Islam regarding Israel were fully satisfied. That is the direction the Arab peace initiatives are eyed in today, skillfully hidden & promoted under multiple, loud humanitarian objectives. When obviously right away recognized & rejected by Israel, the usual anti Israeli fingerpointing arises anew.

'That does not mean that the fleeing population has to waiver its rights as you falsely claimed. International law does not recognise the acquisition of land /property by force and the perpetrators of violence are liable to prosecution.' Actually it means they never had any rights. And Israel acquired the land under international treaty. Specifically the UN Charter, Covenent League of Nations, San Remo Treaty 1920. You are the ones that have NO legal claim to the land. 'You are wrong again to think there are no internationally recognized legal provisions that support the Palestinian people right to return to their homeland. There are several UN resolution that demand the return of the refugees including resolution 191..Gee you are no authority on international law.' Compared to you I must be, since you don't even know what is an international law. General Assembly Resolutions are not, they are recommendations only. They are not worth the paper they are written on. Read the UN Charter.

Tamir Gaza, a Lebanese. I once asked you the same question about yourself and you didn't answer.

Maria, so wasn't it Esau who was the good guy in the story, who was twice tricked by Jacob? I guess you had to be a little crooked to succeed among the Jews. If you are looking for Canaanite artifacts and can't find any, come to Lebanon, they are all over the place and there is a special section in the National Museum devoted to them. The Phoenicians were really Canaanites that date back to 3000 BC.

**NEC 12-15 February Poll: 75% of Palestinians do not think that Israel has the right to exist http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=33100 ** Sarah: Are you telling us that 75% of Palestinians living in WB and Gaza, under daily Israeli oppression are not masochistic? :-) You ommitted to mention - also results from the same poll - that 70% of Palestinians are in favor of peace with Israel. This means they acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, if there is peace instead of subjugation..

Sound recordings of Nasser's rantings about pushing the Jews into the sea are the best record of the invective (along with his closing the Suez to Israeli shipping and booting out the UN peacekeepers) that caused the Israeli preemption. The famous, recorded, "3 Nos" of the September 1 Khartoum conference of the Arab League were: No peace, no recognition, no negotiations. This was in response to an Israeli offer, delievered to an intermediary by Moshe Dayan, days after the cessation of hostilities. The offer was a return of land in exchange for a peace treaty, recognition and some kind of sane negotiation about Jerusalem. The Arab mindset of the time was clear and best echoed by the words of a Palestinian leader you know well...Ziyyad Abu Zayyad who said "My Arab brothers continue to be willing to fight to the last Palestinian". I send this,Abu Firas, with the same respect you showed me. DANA, I think I've found my own label: I'm a LIBERVATIVE. How's that fit??

Bev, hello, I can vouch for the shalom site that they are not Nazis, so don't worry about them. The majority of them are quiet nice but with a few exceptional margienal ones. Too bad you will be missing the lunar eclipse this Saturday. It will start at 4:30 pm your time so by the time the moon does appear for you, it will have already been over. Best place for a good sighting will be Halifax.

The Palestinians are engaging in an extreme display of "Arab maximalism meets Musleim Supremicism." They feel as Muslims that they should be superior to non-Muslims, and in particular , Dhimmi Jews, while at the same time, trying,. as conquering Arabs to maximalize their position. With those two factors ,there is no real negotiation to be had.

Why didn't you do something about identifying the Nazi skinheads Israel imported now causing trouble according to Haaretz? What is with you? You are always running around trying to figure out who is this and that, complain to Haaretz about posters, however, I notice you NEVER address any issues, but rather gnaw on the posters instead of any issue? Why is that? Well, Paul pays you no mind--I guess he read your post that I am not black which is about as accurate as your other posts. Better send a message from Canada that your brethren better get to peace while they can and do something about those skinheads instead of worrying about POSTERS whose words can't do you any harm, especially in Canada.

I tought that Arafat has already accepted to make some adjustments regarding the borders of the West Bank, in order to take into consideration the settlements areas. Furtheremore, the 2002 proposal did not ask for repatriation of Palestinian Refugees. It asked for a just solution, to be agreed upon between Israelis and Palestinians. Israel's reply simply means it's too early for peace, need more time to colonize the WB. And just as now it is too late to address the refugees problem (remember most of them have never been to their so called "home", so what's the point?), it will one day be too late to free the WB.

Israel cannot rely on the enemy's supposed silent majority. After all, the silent majority had voted for Hamas. Israel can rely only on what the Palestinian leadership says. If the leadership is not mature enough to accept international norms, then either they must be replaced, or else, one must conclude that the Palestinians are not yet ready for statehood.

By the way, in the nutshell exactly what the Arab peace initiative is. It can not be any other way for the Arab world without explaining what role they have initially planned for the Pals, & how through anti Israeli brainwashing they have committed generations to misery. The Islamic moderates are between the rock & the hard place (expression) themselves today: the scary for them & the whole world growth & threat of radical Islam monster & the same unwavering hate for Israel. Successful attempts to navigate through both is what is clearly present & visible in their present words & deeds.

Abu Firas Al Qudsi, salaam, you were discussing with the enlightened Brant things said or not said about driving people to the sea. The first and only written record of such utterance was on Oct 11, 1961 by Prime Minister David Ben Gurion in the Knesset when he said: 'The Arabs' exit from Palestine...began immediately after the UN resolution, from the areas earmarked for the Jewish state. And we have explicit documents testifying that they left Palestine following instructions by the Arab leaders, with the Mufti at their head, under the assumption that the invasion of the Arab armies at the expiration of the Mandate will destroy the Jewish state and push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive'. In fact, Abu Firas, half of what became refugees had been chased out before the war was declared and the above quote was one of many lies that followed. You should read the full story on this based on what Jewish historians wrote, not Arabic ones and you would be surprised. http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html

Yes, and they should gather up the Israeli gov't, including Sharon, and that fat little general that ran outa Europe cause they were fixin to lock his arse up, and should get first in line for judgement! Yessiree, maybe then we could get to peace. I do believe BIBI suggested that and the world is still laughing at his chutzpah and failure to take a good look in the mirror and recognize the character of the reflection!

Israel did not delegitimize Abbas. Abbas deeds vs. words had delegitimized him from honest partner is his young days as PLO terror organizer, through the days of Arafat, & as Pals `weak` to everything but `convenient mouth piece` role today. Leopard rarely changes his spots. The only developed difference between his & ilk `moderates` vs. mad radical Islam is he advocates (or so he implies) what translates to slow but much prettier, much better supported & therefore much more attainable gradual, peaceful takeover of Israel. The one that allows (thank you very much) for Israel to exist as the Jewish state, but only marginalized, in the `secondary role`, `dancing` to critical Arab world wishes, & preferably watered down within by strong Arab presence.

Israel's lack of interest in peace efforts has been clearly and regrettably revealed as demonstrated by a) rejecting negotiations with the democratically elected Palestinian goverment, b) rejecting the "Prisoners document" (offering if not peace but nevertheless "50 yrs ceaserefire"), and now c) rejecting the Arab peace plan (including peace with a dozen moderate but less democratic countries). So what's the Israeli master plan (except more concrete walls)?

Yes, you need to mend your ways, you do. Soon you will be reunited with your cousins and I don't want anymore BS over there. Jews have had many accomplishments, no doubt about it, but the biggest accomplishment lays before them. What do you want for the new generations, or are you one of those who says, oh hell, I'm too old and won't be around for the obvious end result. I am innocent; had not one whit to do with whatever happened to your people in the past. How's that. Therefore, you better get to peace while you still can and stop trying to support bad zionist behavior. How's that coffee? BTW, I am glad to see you are not taking Bev's advice and stop talking to me, nosirree, cause I know that you will always post to me whether I posted or not. Why, cause you are stubborn. How do I know that? Cause you keep on using those caps. Anyway keep looking out your window for the new world order. Regards.

Thanks very much, Smadar, I will need your support !! Who knows, maybe it's time for a little trick: What about replacing Yossi Beilins and Yasser Rabbos signatures with those of Ariel Sharon and Marwan Barghouti...?? Well, not sure whether it would be a good idea, then rather leave the originals and work a little bit harder on it...:)

You are Montrealer true blue!! Only a Montrealer would have understood what I wrote!!As for the Israeli arabs of course that concept is total nonsense Walid.Of course they work, they often dont pay their taxes to their municipale authorities and then claim their crappy municipal infrastructure is the fault of the "Zionist racist facist apartheid war monger imperialists" but her comments are nonsense.I have never cared much for poutine either but make it "illegal" its not that bad, I like the gravy though.Ever eat at Daoud restaurant?Best Lebanese food in town.One of these days when you guys calm down and get real for a change I am going to visit Lebanon Syria and Iraq.As an ancient history freak those are places of intrest and I would love to wander around in the OLd City of Damascus.You guys "do" great Old Cities.Also I need to map out the Danite Farms area you guys have been occupying. Can you help??LOL

Are you a Palestinian living in Beirut? or are you a Lebanese?

How does Israel steal water from the wazani springs?You are the ones abusing the Hisbani springs.

Isnt that apartheid racist tribalism like south africa and israel?

We know a lot about the Canaanites and their religious practices and culture. Did you ever hear about the ancient city of Ugarit? It is located on the Syrian coast in a place called Ras Shamra today. Lot's of written remains. You must have heard of the Phoenicians too, didn't you? They were also Canaanites. Lots of remains in Lebanon. And go visit the ruins of Carthage in Tunisia. Also Canaanite culture. The south of Syria (where Israel is) was less developed, but there are also remains there. There is always a question if they are Israelite remains or Canaanite. (According to latest archeologist thinking, the Israelites developed out of the local population, including the Canaanites).

"Dictionary definitions of the word "border" are irrelivant. What is important is what international law has to say and there all sorts of categories from ceasefire lines to armistice lines to demilitarized zones to borders." - Jeff Sometimes legal definitions may vary from every-day definition. But where is it written that Armistice Lines are not internationally-recognized "temporary borders"? Can you supply me with the UN's "definition"? "It is beyond your power to redesignate an armistice line as a border without the two belligerent parties mutually agreeing to that and no third party can decide the issue." - Jeff N I think you still don't get it. The Armistice line is a temporary border. Still a border. And didn't I mention that it was called the border in Israel itself? We haven't heard of the dictionary you are using. P.S. I know the map colors used in Israeli maps. I didn't know they were mandated by the UN. Do you know of any such common "convention"?

My objection was to redefining an issue out of existence, which is what Jeff N does habitually. I was not discussing any peace plan here, just the legal standing of the Green Line. Are the Palestinians ready for a deal? I think they are more ready than Israel under the present government. In the recent past, Israel was more ready (under Rabin and Barak), but not now. Olmert came to power believing in a unilateral approach. Does not look like a peace deal.

Sam, it is evident that those in need of medication are not the Arabs. The ones that are raving and ranting here are the Jews and yourself when you say that the borders were drawn 3000 years ago . You must have picked up that piece of history from the same book that talked about Methuselah living till the age of 969 years and the younger Lamech to only 777 years and that God's children came down to earth and made baby giants with the women of the earth. Not very reliable or accurate history.

And you know I welcome it with a chesire grin. not sure why you want to give me the satisfaction though. Every milieu where people come together, including annonymous ones as talk back forums, thrive on labels and indeed, cannot exist without them, because there is no option of having the full measure of a person, as an actual human encounter does. So, let's say, that in your case Lynn, I only know you through your positions, not as you are as a complete human being. In fact, I don't know even the most basic things, such as gender, age, physical attributes or personal history. Neither will I ask (and almost never do, unlike others here who seem to crave a contact that these forums are not meant to fulfil). Therefore, knowing you as a strictly disembodied voice of a particular bend on issues that may be abstract or not, all I have at my disposal is a label. Better posters get richer labels, that's all. However, I do know you now regret ever raising the topic of labels...

What aggressiveness are you talking about? Tosefta's pretty cool headed, I believe. He surpasses a lot of us here intellectually speaking on Talkback, don't you think? Look at his extensive knowledge about the Middle East and attention to details. eg. dictionary definitions, websites, etc.

I feel for the Jewish victims' families, but let?s face the facts. In many countries, one is allowed to kill trespassers such as those who inhabit the illegal settlements in the West Bank [green line serves as the warning]. All holy land deaths are a result of the natural reaction to the death and destruction Israel is reaping on the poor innocent Palestinians. The Palestinian youths are just defending their national right to self determination. This is a pure math equation based on universal laws. James Baker (USA) said ?When Israel wants peace please call US.? When will Israel make the call?

time figuring out how you are gonna survive instead of worrying about the background of posters. Did you check out the background of those neo nazi Jews you imported now needing housing requiring you to steal and squat on Pal land? Some background checks, eh. Well, instead of attacking right minded posters like Mr. Sullivan and KA, you should look at the reality of the mess about you and figure out how you will survive instead of always advocating squatting, slurping and theft of everybody's land. US is having a tad bit of its own problems, case you didn't notice. The cat that is outa the bag is that you better go for peace while you can instead of pushing the warmongering route and teach yourself how to bend over backwards to greet your arse should you attack Iran. At least KA is looking into your teachings to see why there is disparity between what you were taught and what you advocate and my hats off to him. You oughta try it sometime. Regards.

Jeff Northridge, hello. You are losing your usual objectivity in your arguments especially in your comment to Aida when you said that the Arab Peace Plan contained "a lot of flaws." They may have been unacceptable conditions to you but they were not flaws. Another of your errors was about the right of return for refugees. While it was included as one of the conditions, the plan also had a provision wherein there would be negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on that subject at some time in the future for a possible return that would be phased over time over future years for a limited number of returnees. To that end, Lebanon had asked to have a provision by which any agreement (on non-returnees) would not upset the ethnic balance in Lebanon. You should go back to being neutral Jeff.

agreeable to me, my family and relatives in Israel. Yet the problem has always been that this unofficial document is not agreeable to the majority (maybe the situation has changed now). But mainstream Jewish organizations were never gungho on it serious compromises for both sides. When I asked someone belonging to an influential organization about it, shortly after it came out, he said, "Yeah, we've heard about the Geneva Initiative", he said in a somewhat irritable manner...like why are you suggesting this Yossi Bielin stuff? So really, the enthusiasm for Geneva has to be more widespread by the general Israeli public, media, Jewish organizations, Israeli government, the U.S. government, the PA, the Palestinians and your European neighbours. As you can see, you've got an uphill battle. But you have my support.

I think the giving to the cause of a palestinian state should be similar to that which happened at the dawn of the israeli state. Both are positive outcomes, in the interest of reducing violence through improved security and national self-identity. I know, of course, why you are asking and what you imply. But still I shall elaborate (not that i expect to change anyone's mind, yours included. On these boards, posters come to express feelings not to learn or to debate - give or take a few). A palestine with a chance to make it as a country would be a very positive development not just for them but for Arabic political culture. If palestinians get their country (which we must believe they will, in due course), they will have done so against a backdrop of great obstacles and adversities which they had to overcome. This is allowing them the luxury (which at the moment doesn't feel luxurious, no doubt) of forging a true sense of national identity, distinct from and evolved cf other arabs.

Gee, I see you are continuing the same nonsensical posts you put on the Farrakhan post to me making no sense at all. After 10 posts to me and my responding, I told you that I am female, not male, a pretty hard concept to grasp. Secondly, sorry to tell you I am not a redneck, I am black; I guess you are a new rah rah bad zionist behavior supporter. Given those two facts, the rest of your posts never make sense cause you were told 50 times in a few days. Not even you can polish the turd of occupation. When you get a chance, go look at all those posts to me on the Farrakhan blog and tell me which of them make sense to you. Have another of whatever you are having. Regards.

all the pals leaders shoulde be sent to the Hague for their participation in crimes against humanity. Their negligence and non action has seen the needless deaths of hundreds of Isrealis. This insufferable and miserible lot are sacrificing peace for personal gain.

The phrase at the end leaves hope that there is a form potentially that both Israel and Palestine could accept. The only way to find this out is through direct negotiation to see if the sticky issues of refugees, borders and Jerusalem could be resolved through a package compromise deal.

I was always curious about the origins of the Palestinians in Jordan. I was under impression that since Jordan was carved by British from Palestine and gave it to Abdullah I as a present. I assume that the territory was not deserted and since prior to 1921 it was part of the Palestine consequently it was populated by Palestinians. Am I wrong?

ChanahS, in your response to Paulo telling him about Lebanon not respecting the commitments of the cease-fire, you are correct but you failed to tell him that Israel was equally derelict by having violated Lebanon's air space on an almost daily basis, frequently crossed into Lebanon's territorial waters to harass the fishermen and continues stealing water from the Wazani Springs. Unless, of course, you feel that Israel is exempt from following any established international laws as usual. As to our leader crying it pales in comparison to yours either busy with insider trading on your stock exchange or trying to forcefully peddle their physical love on some poor office staff.

Benny Morris is the leading Jewish and Zionist historian of the events associated with the birth of Israel. He admits many of the atrocities, although he thinks them justified from a Zionist point of view.

Read your response to Chana - I would bet you are aware but if not...... Sadat got so frustrated negotiating with Begin at Camp David that he stood up in anger and yelled "you don't want peace, you want land!" I think he nailed it.

AGE TO HAARETZ TO WARN THEM OF DIRE CONSEQUENCES IF THEY DONT MEND THEIR WAYS . WHEN YOU PRAIS EJEWISH ACHEIVEMENTS ON THESE COOLUMNS BALLISTIC , SOME ONE MIGHT BELIEVE YOUR EMPTY PROTESTATIONS OF INNOCENSE

The Arab peace? What peace... did I miss something, they were talking about peace... Oh I guess the Kasam rocket on Sderot are a peacefull message. The problem is not Abas or the Hamas is you Livini and Olmert... you are the problem. Go home and let us finish the job! Your government isd the problem!

While investigating the nazi who posted here, I came upon such a site that their members come here and blog as much as possible. We do recognize some of them.

Howdy Ibrahim; Yes, I agree that "For negotiations to succeed, the end point needs to be well defined UP FRONT." All this pussyfooting around isn't going anywhere. The biggest problems are the determination of where the border is, the refugee problem, the status of East Jerusalem, and the guaranteed cessation of all hostilities by both sides without exception (including those by extra-governmental militias). That is a tall order and I don't think that it can worked out anytime soon. It will take another few decades not years or months, but my best wishes to both the Israelis and Palestinians in that regard.

"The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be." They would be the Jews ("Exodus" is not history), who later became, with some added genes from Romans, Persians, Greeks, Turks and Arabs, the Palestinians.

they arent damn canaanites,incase you idiots noticed the word palestine came from the roman word philistia!!!which was the small coast around gaza!!!yes the philistines!!!but even they arent their descendants, like all arabs they come from a bunch of nomad arabs who captured cities in the mideast,but they didnt have control for long after relinquishing the people of that land cause the turks took over for almost the next millenia,the brits came and called it the mandate of palestine!!!!!the arabs and jews there were all called palestinians,,,when partition came we were israelis, and they stuck to the term palestinian!!!!!!

"Dictionary definitions of the word "border" are irrelivant. What is important is what international law has to say and there all sorts of categories from ceasefire lines to armistice lines to demilitarized zones to borders." - Jeff Sometimes legal definitions may vary from every-day definition. But where is it written that Armistice Lines are not internationally-recognized "temporary borders"? Can you supply me with the UN's "definition"? "It is beyond your power to redesignate an armistice line as a border without the two belligerent parties mutually agreeing to that and no third party can decide the issue." - Jeff N I think you still don't get it. The Armistice line is a temporary border. Still a border. And didn't I mention that it was called the border in Israel itself? We haven't heard of the dictionary you are using. P.S. I know the map colors used in Israeli maps. I didn't know they were mandated by the UN. Do you know of any such common "convention"?

Abu Firas Al Qudsi, salaam, you were discussing with the enlightened Brant things said or not said about driving people to the sea. The first and only written record of such utterance was on Oct 11, 1961 by Prime Minister David Ben Gurion in the Knesset when he said: 'The Arabs' exit from Palestine...began immediately after the UN resolution, from the areas earmarked for the Jewish state. And we have explicit documents testifying that they left Palestine following instructions by the Arab leaders, with the Mufti at their head, under the assumption that the invasion of the Arab armies at the expiration of the Mandate will destroy the Jewish state and push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive'. In fact, Abu Firas, half of what became refugees had been chased out before the war was declared and the above quote was one of many lies that followed. You should read the full story on this based on what Jewish historians wrote, not Arabic ones and you would be surprised. http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html

With a population of more than 300 million in the US, it is quite possible that there is more than one "real" Chick Corea. I have several times read my obituary, which, though I am way up there in years, has so far been for someone else. And for you Chick Corea fans, you haven't mentioned that he is also a fine classical pianist. I have a favorite recording of Mozart's piano concerto #23 in A Major, conducted and with a vocal "prelude" by Bobby McFerrin.

My objection was to redefining an issue out of existence, which is what Jeff N does habitually. I was not discussing any peace plan here, just the legal standing of the Green Line. Are the Palestinians ready for a deal? I think they are more ready than Israel under the present government. In the recent past, Israel was more ready (under Rabin and Barak), but not now. Olmert came to power believing in a unilateral approach. Does not look like a peace deal.

We know a lot about the Canaanites and their religious practices and culture. Did you ever hear about the ancient city of Ugarit? It is located on the Syrian coast in a place called Ras Shamra today. Lot's of written remains. You must have heard of the Phoenicians too, didn't you? They were also Canaanites. Lots of remains in Lebanon. And go visit the ruins of Carthage in Tunisia. Also Canaanite culture. The south of Syria (where Israel is) was less developed, but there are also remains there. There is always a question if they are Israelite remains or Canaanite. (According to latest archeologist thinking, the Israelites developed out of the local population, including the Canaanites).

You saythat the now-called Palestinian people are related by clans and tribes. As some of your own writers have pointed out, that is exactly why they have not been able to create even a sel-identification as a people, much less the institutions and systems required for self-governance. In fact, at least one writer complained to the British before the partition, that the plan was not fair because the Jews already had those institutions and systems in place and the Arabs did not. As to the 100,000 who emigrated into the area, they were probably from tribes or clans with links in Jordan, Syria, etc., whose family members had told them of the better job opportunities available, primarily provided by Jews.

Consider for a moment - It's also possible that the proposal for the new Orthodox neighborhood is the price Olmert had to pay to get their political support. It may never be built. It is a card that can be played in future negotiations. By agreeing to not build Olmert would be making a "painful concession for peace" that really costs him nothing. The Palestinians could celebrate his concession as a small "victory".

Read the British white papers year by year from 1919 to 1939. British were very meticulous about their bureaucratic reports. Sarah does her reading and research and doesn't try to create fabrications and myths as you seem to be fond of. Why did the Arab League pass resolution in 1949 forbidding any Arab League Nation from letting any Arab from Palestine from becoming a citizen. Why have your homeland countries and brothers forced you to languish in squalid refugee camps and oppressed Arabs from Brit Mandated Palestine? Is it just for the six decades of aid? Living on the dole like Marilyn. Are you unable to integrate into your homelands or have you been used and abused by your brother Arabs simply as a ploy to try to destroy Israel. Are you unable to become functioning and contributing members of Arab Society? Or is there something more heinous behind your refugees. There certainly was something heinous behind the Jewish refugees from the Arab League where 100 billion dollars stolen.

"There is an agenda behind it (Right of Return)." Allowing all to return to former homesteads, even if only those that still exist, is a demographic bombshell to Israel and would force the Jewish state to come out of the Apartheid closet. The Beirut Declaration calls for a just solution based on UNGA 194, which allows for compensation in lieu of returning to Israel proper. The international consensus is the the Palestinian Diaspora should be repatriated to Palestine's Jordan Valley. The first Palestinian Alliya (sp?) will likely be those from Lebanon.

the territories don't think Israel has the right to exist. You are very correct! This is what Palestinians think of the state of Israel, which corresponds to Hamas's charter that calls to eliminate the Jewish state, and to the struggle Israel has had to make the PLO strike out its call to eliminate the Jewish state.

you're reading wrong history books-----i heard about this benny morris---.his books are not recommended by one author.

to simply state that the state of Israel does have the right to exist, hence, I and others must conclude that we must take this opionion of yours into consideration each time we read your words of hate and demonization of everything that is Israel. By the way, should have I written above "everything that is Jewish", Yaakov?

this is not the end of negotiation, this is not even the beginning of the end, and it's not even the end of the beginning, but it is a beginning. TZipi is the first Israeli politician in years to respond directly to a peace proposal and she sure as hell said it with Olmerts approval. Now that wasn't so hard was it? Right of return and borders have always been the key issues, agree on those two and the rest is relatively easy. I pray that this time the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train headed in Tzipis direction.

why you're calling evil, "good" and good, "evil".you're siding with the wrong group or maybe because you are a muslim yourself. can't you hear the news everyday-----arab muslims terrorizing the world.is that good, indrajaya. why are so mad at the jewish people, they're not the one who start the fight---if your people, the arabs will leave them alone, they will leave your people alone--------suicide bombing or hijacking---is that good? THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE HATED BECAUSE THEY'RE CHOSEN BY GOD.

It' soooooooooooooooooooooo clear!

In your fictional version of history, who gave the land to the pals? Santa or the tooth fairy?? Anyone can make wild and ridiculous claims (as you often do) about there ansetry. None of that makes ti true. There is this thing called "Fact"...most arabs and arab supporters dont know wat it is...look it up

What makes you think withdrawal to 1967 borders will solve the problem? Withdrawal from Gaza did not result in the Palestians rolling up their sleeves and turn their weapons into ploughshares. Leaving Lebanon in 2000 did not produce that result either. Please tell us why we were attacked in 1867 if we were then on the 1967 borders. I truly want to know why you think it's so straightforward.

It does not take a deep thinker to realize that Israel will ultimately annex all that it desires in the West Bank. The Palestinians will never have a viable state and I believe that most of them know it. It is fait accompli. After all, Israel has defied UN res. 242 (and countless others) and the Geneva convention for forty years. Even under the most favorable interpretation of UN 242 (namely, Israel is not required to withdraw from all territory occupied during the 67 conflict), Israel has failed utterly in its compliance. It is argued that to the end of security Israel has to occupy the west bank. Curious. If I did not know any better I would say that Israel was using its citizens as human shields. After all, the occupation is all about security, is it not? One then must surmise that the nearly 200 Israeli settlements serve this legitimate and noble end. Otherwise, I am afraid, one would be left to deduce that the occupation is not about security at all, but rather a larger strategy of territorial expansion at the end of a gun. Perish the thought. That would be violative of international law. No, Israel, I am sure, is simply keeping the proverbial seat warm for when it selflessly and nobly turns over all of those wonderful settlements along with the appurtenant infrastructure to the Palestinians. All the latter need do is trust the international community and Israel and accept that their servile condition will be rewarded with a land of their own. After all, the proto Israeli state stacked its arms and won its dominion from the British (and the indigenous Palestinians) through non violent means.

The Arabs DO recognize Israel... Who wouldn`t recognize a racist, european settler-colony designed by and for the benefit of white european jews when they see one??? Look at the photo of Livni, she should be back in Poland with here Blonde hair and Euro looks. She is surely not Middle Eastern, regardless of what her religion may claim...They funny thing is that the Euro jews think the Arabs hate the zionist adventure because the zionists are jewish? That`s like the Native Americans hating the Pilgrims because they were Christians, and not because they stole their land and exterminated their society. The Arabs hate Zionists because Israel is the illegitimate remnant of Euro colonialism in the Middle East. Zionists, get ready for the one-state solution...it`s coming. Shalom brothers.

"Dictionary definitions of the word "border" are irrelivant. What is important is what international law has to say and there all sorts of categories from ceasefire lines to armistice lines to demilitarized zones to borders." - Jeff Sometimes legal definitions may vary from every-day definition. But where is it written that Armistice Lines are not internationally-recognized "temporary borders"? Can you supply me with the UN's "definition"? "It is beyond your power to redesignate an armistice line as a border without the two belligerent parties mutually agreeing to that and no third party can decide the issue." - Jeff N I think you still don't get it. The Armistice line is a temporary border. Still a border. And didn't I mention that it was called the border in Israel itself? We haven't heard of the dictionary you are using. P.S. I know the map colors used in Israeli maps. I didn't know they were mandated by the UN. Do you know of any such common "convention"?

knows that ---when he hears a term "israel" or "jerusalem"---it belong to jewish people. these palestinians you were talking about were canaanites---hebrews failed to drive them out during the bible time.read the good book---the first five books of moses.don't rely on arab history books.

Howdy Abu; You are not an authority on international law either. You said, "There are several UN resolution that demand the return of the refugees including resolution 191." UNGAR 191 did not "demand" anything; it merely expressed the desirabilty for the return of refugees to their places of origin (including Jewish refugees). UNGAR 191 was superceded and replaced by UNSCR 242 which called "for a just settlement of the refugee problem". Notice that UNSCR 242 does not mention a "right of return", does not distinguish between Jewish or Palestinian refugees, does not specify a deadline for compliance, and does not single out any particular state as being solely responsible for the "just settlement". You are beating a dead horse; UNGAR 191 died 40 years ago in 1967 and was not binding in the first place.

'It is a known fact the civilian population tend to leave/escape/run when threatened with death/injury/rape/ethnic cleansing or any other act of violence. We have seen this recently in Bosnia, Rwanda, Lebanon and elsewhere.' And this has what to do with the fact that there is no 'right of return'. 'International law does not recognise the acquisition of land /property by force and the perpetrators of violence are liable to prosecution. ' We acquired the land under international law - the UN Charter, Covenent League of Nations, San Remo treaty. Now show us one that says that it belongs to the Arabs. 'There are several UN resolution that demand the return of the refugees including resolution 191..Gee you are no authority on international law.' A General Assembly resolution is not a law. Try reading the UN Charter, it says they 'may make recommendations' so 191 is meaningless. I certainly know more about international law than say you.

Of course you are free to vote for whomever you choose, but you have to take the consequences, whether your choice is good or bad. As for being well-read, I fear that your reading is quite restricted. If I had time and space, I could recommend a much more rounded list of books, including some by Palestinians.

Basless arguments are your forte? heres a few suggestions to real peace ! 1. Moslems /Arabs to realise that they will never have a Shirya law ruling over Jews in Israel ( they may be taking over europe in this way but Israelis are not that stupid) 2.Resettlemnt of the Palestinian refugees to Iran (300 times bigger than Israel) with money from Saudi Arabia.(Why should the US always be the Palestinians benefactor when their so called brothers have more money than 99% of the world. 3. A Palestinian state within Gaza and the West bank that ACKNOLEDGES Israels right to exist. 4. People like you read your history books and find out what happens to nations / races that want to destroy Jews. They always end up destroyed.

See my response to Chanah which should appear by the time this does. I forgot to mention to her you all attacking Josh Goldman, but, hey, what else is new. Same thing I said to Chanah goes for you so no need to repeat it. Regards.

My objection was to redefining an issue out of existence, which is what Jeff N does habitually. I was not discussing any peace plan here, just the legal standing of the Green Line. Are the Palestinians ready for a deal? I think they are more ready than Israel under the present government. In the recent past, Israel was more ready (under Rabin and Barak), but not now. Olmert came to power believing in a unilateral approach. Does not look like a peace deal.

i look forward to your posts as a sign of hope. i would like some intelligent answers from you as you live in israel. surely most politicians are aware that what the territories are arab becuase arabs live there and israel is jewish because mainly jews live there. it must be very clear because they would have annexed the territories years ago. are they hoping that there will be another "tummel" from an arab israeli war and most of the palestinians will leave or be driven out of the lands as in 48? 2007 is not 48, so what is their thinking? not all israelis in power are stupid or is it that politicians must play to the religous right to stay in power?

Well, KA had an excellent post. I don't know about digging around here and there as you say, but his post was right on the money, and I said so. Sorry you don't agree cause you have no concern for Israel's survival but instead keep pushing along the BS and condemning right minded posters, be they Jew or Gentile, who advocate ways for Israel to survive. You better spend a tad more time figuring out how you intend to keep squatting on Pal land with world opinion and circumstances quickly turning against the untenable position you advocate. I do believe it is called the ostrich syndrome. Better learn how to bend over backwards and kiss your arse goodbye in line with your thinking, yessiree. I still say KA had a good post and he should continue to dig into your teachings to figure out how you are so far from what Moses gave you. Anything else? Regards.

Actually maria they did leave a TON of artifacts covering millenia of history.Wake up and read some real history.

I'm sorry, but "some of your best friends are dummies". Weren't you the one who blathered how you had the problem of being surrounded by 'geniouses' during your days? So which is it, geniouses or dummies. Either way I'm sure they're thrilled by your sense of humility and friendship.

Was it 11:45AM exactly Khalil? Or perhaps 11:44, or maybe it was 1:44 pm or am even. What your date does show is that there was fighting AFTER the Arab armies invaded Israel. I'm not certain, but I don't remember where it says that the human rights conventions include using artillary, missiles, and guns against civilians as a form of resistance, which is what the traditional Palestinian course of action has been. Likewise, your ideas of either kill us or send us to another desert, are both non starters, and show where your heart lies. The invasion of 1948 didn't work out, so now you'd like to re-create it in time for 2008. Just don't be surprised when the results are the same.

Jews go back many thousand of years before the world was created. They were than the first being on this earth according to many Jews. They than went to all the corners of the world. So in essence the world belongs to Jews - from Timbuktu to Bokhara to China. So build a wall similar to the one you are building today surrounding the new border and call it 'Cloud Cuckoo Land'

You sent me ad nauseum posts on the Farrakhan blogs and by the last 5 of them, they didn't make ANY sense, not even to Lynn, and it sounded like you were indulging in something to cause you to be demented. If you doubt me, go look at what you wrote. For the 50th time, I am not a man and started out each answer telling you that. Second, I am not a redneck, I am black. Third, you sound like Terrornator's twin. Talk what you know, not what you dream. The bottom line is your posts are are dumb as you are, not grounded in any reality, just like your assumptions about me in spite of what other posters know and that is that I am black. Nonetheless, not even you can polish the occupation turd. Don't forget to go see if EVEN YOU can make sense of the gramatically incorrect nonsense under Farrakhan such as "I don't know if they want me to say this". Geez, keep on having whatever you are having.

Another thing that needs to be upfront is at what before implementation will hamas be disarmed.

Unfortunately, arab revisionists are making up stuff...We have the artifacts, we have the books, etc...proving our claim. Where is yours? What was the currency? Who was the leader? Why hasn't there been history books written at that time? Josephus was born during the first year of the reign of Roman emperor Gaius, so either in 37 or 38 CE, and died around 100 CE. He was part of a priestly family and claimed to be descended from the Hasmonean dynastyhttp://atheism.about.com/od/biblepeoplenewtestament/p/Josephus.htm For Josephus:http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/loc/Josephus.html For more on history: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/nutshell/conflict_2.html Where is your evidence?

Now here is a marriage made in heaven. A couple of deep thinkers. Red neck city with the out patients. This is very much like the inmates running the asylum.

because of their wicked practice----probably, these palestinians might have been come from the line of edom(esau) and ishmael.and besides, God told the israelites to get rid of them(canaanites), but they failed to do it------now, THEY'RE PRICKS IN THEIR EYES AND THORNS IN THEIR SIDES.numbers 33:55.-------isaac did not want JACOB to marry a canaanite woman,but esau married one.

I find it astonishing that you and your ilk keep foolishly claiming that more =than 100.000 Arabs emigrated from neighbouring countries=!!! Where did you exactly get that from and what happened to those Arabs? Have they evaporated? Why didn't they go back to their original towns and villages after 1948 instead of languishing in miserable refugee camps? Any one who knows anything about Palestine and the region will be able to point to the clan system that is prevalent there. People are connected through clans and tribes and there aren't many individuals who are not related to a particular clan. There is no evidence of a mass emigration to Palestine whatsoever. It?s all a fabrication aimed at side stepping the root cause of the conflict which is the displacement of the Palestinians by Israel

What ms livni means when she says borders must be determined by negotiations (which, by the way, Israel still refuses to negotiate): ISRAEL DICTATES TO THE PALESTINIANS WHAT THEIR BORDERS WILL BE. Israelis still shudder at the thought of negotiating with the Palestinians as equals. Let's be clear: For negotiations to succeed, the end point needs to be well defined UP FRONT.

You are sooooooooooooooooooooo right!!

You write to channaS: "your idea of palestinian integrtion into arab countries is the same as expecting isralis to integrate into European communities." In 1957, at a meeting of 72 international organizations that dealt with refugee problems throughout the world, Dr. Alpen Ross states: "Without the political aspect, the Arab refugee problem would have been the easiest to solve by integration. Among all the refugee problems after the Second World War....The Arab refugees - in their faith, language, race and social organization - are no different than the other [Arabs] in their countries." I don't know if you are aware that the Jewish population of Israel is made up of people from almost every nation in the world. Almost everything in Israel is in at least three languages - Hebrew, Arabic and Russian - and when the government issued safety instructions to residents prior to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, it was in five languages - English and Amharic in addition to those above.

Howdy Tosefta; Dictionary definitions of the word "border" are irrelivant. What is important is what international law has to say and there all sorts of categories from ceasefire lines to armistice lines to demilitarized zones to borders. For example, the UN colors internationally-recognized borders blue (such as the border between Israel and Lebanon), armistice lines green (such as the temporary and now obsolete Green Line between Israel and the West Bank), and demilitarized zones purple (such as the DMZ between Syria and the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights). The fact that Indian law applies to the Indian side and Pakistani law applies to the Pakistani side of the "Line of Control" in Kashmir does not imply that it is a border. It is beyond your power to redesignate an armistice line as a border without the two belligerent parties mutually agreeing to that and no third party can decide the issue. I'm encouraged that you allow for some "adjustments" to the Green Line to be made howev

Redraw from the occupied territories and make peace with the Muslim world. The offer is there and if rejected, shame on you. What happened to the "peace loving Israel"? What did you turn into?

NEC 12-15 February Poll: 75% of Palestinians do not think that Israel has the right to exist http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=33100

It is possible that modern day Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites just as some of them are descendants of Egyptians, Persian, Romans, Greeks, Crusades or any of the invaders that invaded the land throughout history. What matters is the Palestrina Arabs have continuous uninterrupted presence in the land for the last 1500 years and have been the overwhelming majority until recently. In the eve of the British Mandate, the Palestinian Arabs made over %92 of the population owning %95 of the land. It is clear to anyone who has a brain cell that Palestine was full of Arabs. While Jewish claim to Palestine was evidently none existent before the 20th century, Jewish rule in parts of Palestine may have lasted for 70 years at some stage. This however pales into insignificance compare to the rule of Muslims which can be traced to 636 AD.

"how Israel treats its religious minorities." Uh, huh. A Druze as acting Knesset Prez, an Arab in the Cabinet, holy sites of all religions protected. Meanwhile, we know that Egyptian Copts regularly complain to the UN, so do Moroccan Berbers, Christian Lebanese and all the other of the few remaining minorities in Arab lands. "242": I have read it. It doesn't mention Pal territory. "Green Line" Perhaps you should read the 49 Armistice. The GL is where combat ceased and is not a border. "settlers" Explain why you support the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Judea & Samaria. Sorry, puppy, you haven't addressed facts, and I'm still waiting. For more examples: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/828665.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/826217.html http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/818991.html

think you are, but I think what closes the case is you response and full aggreement with KA. He is not a new poster here (as you sre) we all know him as someone who spends his time digging in the Talmud poking around for as many evils he can attribute to us JEws as justification for getting rid of us. Now you slurping up to that unpolished turd and rah rhaing his posts relly lets the cat out of the bag. You are not what you claim to be and are what we think you are - whether you like it or not.

JON ................ why do you talk to this idiot. Blowing up bakeries, buses restaurants, airports, olympic games, these are not collective punisment are they. Ballistic is about as bright as a bag of rocks, don't waste your time. he is an amusement to me, i get a kick out of these red necks, i think they are fun, they used to get to me.Now i realize they are like germs, things that are just part of life.Red Neck U.S.A. There are comedians in The U. S. now who make a living off of these red neck fools.

Fact is Israel has survived the impossible, and G-d willing will survive forever. The Romans were a great empire. They conquered Israel...Now they are gone. The Greeks were a great empire. They conquered Israel. Now they are gone. The Byzantiens... The Ottomans The British The Crusaders, etc. They are all gone. Israel is still here! And Israel will survive! Am yisroel Chai!

1) Israel agreed to UNR181 2) The Arabs, both the AL and the local Arab community rejected it. 3) Jordan was never part of 181 and illegally crossed its own border and invaded 4) When the Arabs rejected UNR181, the making of Jerusalem into an int'l city was voided. 5) The Allies redrew the borders of Germany, Poland and Russia after WWII 6) If 5 was legal, then Israel annexing disputed territory in response to the Arab war of aggression was legal. Not surprisingly, you refuse to admit that Arabs declaring war was illegal or the status of the territories described by UNR181. Sorry, puppy, it's you who looks stupid; but you're used to that, aren't you?

What is illegal about an air force of a country being used gainst those who are attacking it?

So therefore, the agreements made to Israel are meaningless because the arab leaders consider us infidels...Thanks for that. By the way, are you the famous Jazz artist? I am a great fan if you are.

MYTH ?The Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites and were in Palestine long before the Jews.? FACT Palestinian claims to be related to the Canaanites are a recent phenomenon and contrary to historical evidence. The Canaanites disappeared from the face of the earth three millennia ago, and no one knows if any of their descendants survived or, if they did, who they would be. Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia, said the Palestinians? ancestors had only been in the area for 1,000 years.9 Even the Palestinians themselves have acknowledged their association with the region came long after the Jews. In testimony before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, for example, they claimed a connection to Palestine of more than 1,000 years, dating back no further than the conquest of Muhammad?s followers in the 7th century.10 And that claim is also dubious. Over the last 2,000 years, there have been massive invasions (e.g., the Crusades) that killed off most of the local people, migrations, the plague, and other manmade or natural disasters. The entire local population was replaced many times over. During the British mandate alone, more than 100,000 Arabs emigrated from neighboring countries and are today considered Palestinians. By contrast, no serious historian questions the more than 3,000-year-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel, or the modern Jewish people?s relation to the ancient Hebrews. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/Israelsroots.html#a2

It is a known fact the civilian population tend to leave/escape/run when threatened with death/injury/rape/ethnic cleansing or any other act of violence. We have seen this recently in Bosnia, Rwanda, Lebanon and elsewhere. That does not mean that the fleeing population has to waiver its rights as you falsely claimed. International law does not recognise the acquisition of land /property by force and the perpetrators of violence are liable to prosecution. You are wrong again to think there are no internationally recognized legal provisions that support the Palestinian people right to return to their homeland. There are several UN resolution that demand the return of the refugees including resolution 191..Gee you are no authority on international law.

Who is this imaginary friend dunbite? is he something you dream up as an object for your abuse needs when the pool of real victims is a little shallow?Poor you.

I wont fall for it. I asked you a question and I will not be manipulated by your refusing to answer it. Answer it and state the source. Other refrain from your rhetorical question stop being so slothfuland get your fingers working and find the answer rather than asking question. It has been answered many times. But then you knew that.

Thank you for the friendly offer, but I am not sure we will be able to walk our pets together. Dumbite has a problem; he cannot recognize any evolutionary change, in houses or streets or empty lots. If a new house is built, Dumbite will still run into the courtyard and pee on the trees as if nothing has changed. Causes me much embarrassment and even trouble, which you should avoid.

When did the Pals kick you out cause they are the ones being kicked around? Sorry to say that I hear your argument, but you and I both know it will never fly for any settlement. So, what is your plan, perpetual war for Israelis, cause right now the US is having a tad of trouble keeping her own BS together in case you haven't noticed. All that talk about how we will never talk to Iran, blah, blah, blah; well, sometimes circumstances will make a monkey eat red pepper and those circumstances have presented themselves. So Israel's great benefactor is having problems hence its errant child, Israel, will have some problems. Folks over there better get to peace while they can and forget this BS about thousands of years ago when the world maps looked entirely different. Those claims run away moderate supporters who understand it is a fairly tale to bring it up. So, what's it gonna be, perpetual war, Israel will lose by attrition sitting in the middle of the ARAB world.

I see you are looking for people to pick on by your your aggressive and insulting posting.Your need to abuse is very strong isnt it?

OK, so it looks like a border, smells like a border, & arguably is/is not a border. However: who was on the other side of this border before the six day war? It certainly wasn't 'palestine'. & another thing, you quote it is '..waiting to be modified by peace agreements...' So let's modify it: settlements such as Aerial are now facts on the ground, & have roads linking to TA etc. So, annexe these & strike a deal on giving the pals some uninhabited land the other side in exchange. Sounds scarily like Barak's last plan.... Do you think the PA is ready for a deal? I'm sorry, but I think they are not yet mature enough, & they're far too violent.

Read your post; I sure hope you are in Israel to balance out the mad hatters. Somebody with your reasonable thoughts oughta be in charge, yessiree, cause you laid out the basis, the only basis, for a peace plan over there. Regards and keep posting.

There's nothing new here guys. You can't include Israel proper in your state. Israel would prefer having a deal and will try arranging you a nice state but not if you are hostile.

Cipora, Everybody should know that Hamas will not change its position from one day to the other. Therefore Israel should take the EU-approach, namely to judge the new unity governement on its actions and not on its words. By the way, you were shying away last night from my question, what kind of convergence plan would you foresee...?? P.S. How do you know that KA represents the silent majority among the Palestinians, why not Joe from Ramallah...??

"The Palestinians today can survive without financial aid from the West, as long as Saudi Arabia and Iran are willing to offer support." - Tosefta "You`re not too bright are you?.. The international community has every right to impose ANY conditions they want, it is their money." - Gee I know from experience how hard it is talking to dummies". (Some of my best friends are dummies.) No wonder you have a hard time. So let us make things very clear: 1. Nobody argues about the fact that the international community has the RIGHT to impose any precondition they want in return for aid. They even have the RIGHT not to give any aid. But this is not the issue here. It seems the issue of peace is hard enough. Why add unnecessary trivial points to the discussion? 2. Most of the foreign aid to the PA was for humanitarian purposes, rather than for running their government, paying salaries, etc. This aid continues. The EU actually increased it over last year. So we are talking about the US (also giving some humanitarian aid) and Israel. Israel is giving not aid but Palestinians` own money which they now withhold (about $600 per year). Saudi and Iranian money more than make up for all these losses.

Thanks very much, Smadar, for doing my "job". Actually I could subscribe to each of your words. But I only hope you will also show as much enthusiasm when it comes to convince your Israeli friends that the Geneva initiative is the right way to go, and that anything less probably won't do it... Painful process, I know, but the sooner you can find a way to accept the harsh reality, the easier it will be, when the moment of truth is coming closer...

Thanks very much, ODP, for once you gave me a good laughter. "Israelis believe that they will not get peace in exchange for the Geneva initiative". Well, then I would really be anxious to learn what kind of initiative would be needed in order to make Israelis believe that they will get peace in return...?? You know, what makes me sure that the Geneva initiative is really fair and balanced...?? The fact that the majority on both sides think that it's not fair to them and that they would have to give away too much. No better proof that it's the right one.

I dont remember seeing Jeff asking you your opnion, he obviously has understood what you are and is keeping his distance.Please try to keep your less than savoury aspects of your character yourself.Thank you.We are fed up with your aggressions.Thank you.

"The Green Line was not a border. It was an armistice line" - Jeff N The Green Line of course was the "border" of the State of Israel.prior to 1967. It was not a permanent border, being only based on the Armistice agreements and waiting to be modified by peace agreements, but it was the recognized international border of the State of Israel, where its laws were accepted to hold. Here is the definition of "border" by Merriam-Webster: Function: noun Etymology: Middle English bordure, from Anglo-French, from border to border, from Old French bort border, of Germanic origin; probably akin to Old English bord board 1. an outer part or edge 2. an ornamental design at the edge of a fabric or rug 3. a narrow bed of planted ground along the edge of a garden or walk (a border of tulips) 4. BOUNDARY (crossed the border into Italy) 5. a plain or decorative margin around printed matter I think option #4 is the relevant one here. Everybody who lived in Israel prior to 67 will remember border sign stating "Stop! Border ahead". The Arab Plan wants that border to become the permanent one. I am sure it will change slightly, as contemplated by Resolution 242.

It is explodable. Lets call her Palestine. Let us use this donkey to destroy the Jewish presence in the ME where we would have peace and harmony and tolerance and prosperity and love for all if it wasn't for the acursed Jews and their sinister plan to claim Israel as their homeland. Next the acursed Jews will be telling us they built the Pyramids and Muhammed stole and Murdered them in Medina and Mecca. How about the one that Abraham was a Jew. Or what about the one there were Jews in Arabia? Arafat was as purebred Palestinian as there ever was, and is the father of Palestinians who only want peace and a productive society. So Sayeth the Arab League.

Well let's read your words again. 'Fabrications. Lies. Forged history. Terror of Irgun, Hagana, Legion, and illegal air force is the reason why we were terrified out of our minds and fled.' Here you admit that you fled. Guess what stupid, that means there was no ethnic cleansing. Why was our Air Force illegal? The Legion was Jordanian not Israeli. In short you proved that you are a liar. Even the Arabs at the time admitted you ran away. 'So you see, according to international law, the survivors of ethnic cleansings as well as indigenous people have rights. Those rights will not be waivered, sold, or traded for anything else. You better believe we`re going to return!' No they don't and no you're not. It's that simple you have NO rights nor were you ethnically cleansed and there is not 1 international law that supports your claim. Calm down and stay out of our country.

in Palestine. The whole world including Israel's most staunch ally the United States had to force Israel and Shamir to head out to Madrid after the 1st intifada, because the whole world saw the Palestinians as the victims. Rocks vs tanks do you recall? The honus is on Israel to cease any further settlement expansion, and of course on the Palestinian Authority to reign in on elements that will continue violence which will cause the normal civilian population to be collectively punished. Israel also must legally punish it's extremist settlers who instigate violence against Palestinians. Regardless Fawaz in concluding, you can't expect every single Palestinian to put his foot in his mouth, while Israel is shoving a stick up their you know what. Peace.

However, Israel has managed to delegitimize Abbas from the get go. Thus the radical groups gain more support from the population. Just imagine your family as you say lives in a refugee camp in Lebanon. Now imagine the Israelis invading and annexing the territory your refugee camp is in. That's exactly what's happening to those in the West Bank who resided prior to 1948 in what is now Isreal proper. They were expelled from their homes, and now they're being pushed further east. Sorry, it's just not human nature to remain silent. Even the United States 2nd amendment gives all law abiding citizens the right to bare arms that is to defend yourself, your property against a criminal. Again, I believe the tactics of the 1st intifada a non-violent civil disobedient movement was much more successful than what the Palestinians have resorted to in the 2nd intifada. However, the more Israel annexes the West Bank, the more the foreign Arab and Muslim countries radical elements will filter

Dear Sir: [1] If you are the 'real' Chick Corea, may god bless you for all the wonderful musical joy you have brought to so many. I remember all your groups and musical epoques. [For what it's worth, I have a particularly fond recollection of the duet album you did with Herbie Hancock - the version there of 'La Fiesta' is remarkable. Maynard Ferguson, may god rest his soul, also did a beautiful and powerful rendition of this song with his band.]. [2] If you are NOT the 'real' Chick Corea, sir please do not write under his name, as it is improper to mix politics with spirituality [yes, spirituality] in this manner. Thank you.

You're not too bright are you? Well if they want handouts they had better do as the donors require. The international community has every right to impose ANY conditions they want, it is their money. 'The Palestinians today can survive without financial aid from the West, as long as Saudi Arabia and Iran are willing to offer support. Pushing them into Iranian hands will be bad, but then giving Israel an easy excuse to reject peace talks will be the real damage the unnecessary conditions will cause.' Like hell they could survive. Over 90% of their economy is foreign aid. Over which the West supplies 97% of the amount. Would Iran and/or Saudi Arabia match that? Not a chance and even then if Israel says no, their aid would be worthless. The Palestinians have to be the most totally dependent group of beggers on the planet. Beggers do not set the rules, something the Palestinians don't understand, nor do you either apparently.

I'll agree with you wholeheartedly that violence is not going to get Palestinians their state. Obviously Israel is not only superior militarily against the Palestinians, but against the whole Arab world combined. However, you don't live in the occupied territories. While most Palestinians are willing to accept 22 percent of the Palestine Mandate as their state, Israel still carves, divides, and creates Bantustans in the territories. No human beings can remain sane while the land their great ancestors harvested are stolen for the criminal settlement enterprise. Even the South Africans resisted. Surely it took a long time, but eventually apartheid ended. What Israel doesn't understand is that by destroying a 2 state solution, by increasing the settlement enterprise, it's only going to radicalize the Palestinians further. Israel does not nor did it ever have good intentions in forging a lasting peace with Palestinians. I like you am a strong supporter of Abbas (continued)

However, I do absolutely love Farrakhan, who is not a Jew hater, but a Jew warner, if you will. You never heard 1 of his speeches, you are just parroting what the ADL said, however, you can see his speech on the internet for free under "The Final Call", Savior's Day 2007 and you will not hear one antisemitic anything. Whether there are 22 or 50 Arab states, who are you to decide that? Well, Ballistic, the prophet, according to you, prophesizes that you will soon have your cousins right next door. I repeat, go for peace while you can and stop sending me messages when you know I am not on! Regards.

You show me the Arabs countries having a meeting in the UN to take back the 849,000 Jews who where forcably booted from THEIR homes in 1948 from Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Afganistan. Then we can start talking about Palestinians and their so called rights to Israel.

Howdy Yaakov; The Green Line was not a border. It was an armistice line (at Arab insistence by the way because they were loathe to recognize Israel) established by the Rhodes Conference of 1949. The Green Line between Israel and the Gaza Strip only lasted for a year when it was replaced by a new armistice line as defined by the Egyptian-Israeli Territorial Exchange Agreement of 1950. The Green Line between Israel and the West Bank only lasted from 1948 to 1967 at which time Jordan violated the ceasefire first and attacked Israel across it. You nor Jacob Blues have the authority nor credibility to redesignate an armistice line as a border ex post facto. Your threats of death unless Israel accepts your declaration that the old Green Line is the border ring hollow and are impotent. Try the path of the security barrier as the border; you'll have better luck.

...yet you are so mean to me! You sound like; guess who, oh, so familiar! Make up your mind: what do you want, Doris? Else, SHUT UP! You're nothing but a bully, Doris-dear!

Who told you I was crying? You must be mistaking me for someone else.

that you recognize Israel's right to exist. Or are you like Paulo who refuses to utter such words and hide behind play on words and demand for quotes? Yaakov, does Israel have the right to exist? Yes or no?

I am sorry that you cannot see beyond Hamas, and see how to pursue israels best long term intrests in spite of them.You give Hamas power over the fate of israel, that is not something I am not willing to do.Olmert and his govt are a recipie for stagnation and wasting time money energy and lives.You refuse to see that Olmert is using stagnation to further what is a deluded policy of unilateral impostion of terms on the Palestinians along lines that no one in the world will accept.I chose to see beyond hamas.

You can believe any thing you like. You can even believe that the moon is made of cheese if you want. The point is the truth will always come out no matter how some try to deny it or try to pull the wool over the eyes of others. For years, people like yourself were peddling all kinds of nonsense but luckily it?s all out in the open now albeit belatedly. I never said I wanted anyone dead and I ?ve never preached, encouraged or condoned violence in this forum or in any other forum. Demanding one's rights is not useless as you foolishly claimed. As humans, we have inherent rights which must be respected. Furthermore, we should be prepared to fight for our rights. I don?t call demanding my legitimate rights as something useless.

Listen Jacob. The rather depressing title of "Ethnically cleansed" unfortunately describes me, since I lost my homeland (the galilee and Palestine) thanks to the Jewish airforce's bombardment of Deir el Qassi on May 29, 1948 at exactly 11:45am. Your folks would have u believe we left because the Arab armies asked us to make room for a genocide and counted 1..2...3...go...Fabrications. Lies. Forged history. Terror of Irgun, Hagana, Legion, and illegal air force is the reason why we were terrified out of our minds and fled. So you see, according to international law, the survivors of ethnic cleansings as well as indigenous people have rights. Those rights will not be waivered, sold, or traded for anything else. You better believe we're going to return! How's the Big Apple and have you seen any good musicals lately?

..waiting for them to happen before one acts in ones best intrests is a losing game for sure.A two state solution is coming ODP, lets face that reality head on, lets move a deal with Abbas in principle, then the implementation phase will be the time to put the screws on about Hamas.Let Palestine stand on its own without all its shields and excuses.As a state they will find reality has been greatly altered, they will be dependant on the good willof Jordan Egypt Israel the EU and the US.As I said this is not about Peace it is about conflict management, that is the best that can be achieved.Regards

The title should have read "Israel never wanted to accept Arab peace initiative...". For a very simple reason: they are grabbing as much land as possible, violating as many international law as possible, expulsing by force as many people as possible, possibly all of them. Make no mistake: calling the mafia gang of the almighty four "peace brokers" is a fallacy. Make no mistake: the preparation of the Nabka part II is at a pretty advanced stage. My question to you all is as follows: how long will the Israelis let their kids be sent to rape, massacre and torture Arabs in the name of Zionism? How long will they turn their back on Judaism, in the name of Zionism?

During the Lebanese war Israel had one full month of unhindered action before a security council resolution was going to come up and force a halt to israels actions.That fact that international law was on israels side allowed for the US Britain and Canada Australia and others to "run interference" on israels behalf by repeating at every opportunity "Israel has the right to defend itself"Had israel still been in Lebanon our friends could do nothing.The result of the lebanon war though not decisive has put a major crimp in the plans of the freaks for now.If Palestine was a state, how much tolerance do you think there would be for any more troubleout of them after it had been formally settled.I am willing to bet you that their are many in the Arab world who have to pay lip service to "Palestine" but once they have a state would vomit at the mere thought of stirring up the pot again.Expecting ideal outcomes in the ME is foolish..cont

You claim livni is making set borders and not negotiating...but what exactly do you call the palesintinas saying they wont talk or be peaceful unless thyey get everfything they want with nothing negotiable?

Its not a peace plan, its an anti-peace plan. By linking "comprehensive peace" to non-negotiable extremist demands no Israeli government can accept, the so-called "Plan" sets itself up to then offer "less than peace" for "less than total agreement to the "Plan"". In other words one more phony "hudna" truce agreement. The repeated use of the phrase "...in the context of the comprehensive peace..." in the "Plan" is just a cheap lawyer's escape clause trick. What it means is that the "peace" is vilid only if all 22 members maintain it. If one breaks the peace, all the rest are relieved of their obligations. Not "land for peace", but "land for nothing", also known as a "hudna". That they even try this stunt shows disinterest in real peace.

Olmert knows how to read. He knows what is in the Hamas charter. He knows that the position of the Hamas charter was reiterated just two days ago by at least two spokesmen for Hamas, subsequent to Mashal's visit to Russia. Besides, Dino, all you have to do is read KA's post #44.

Elisha employes a tactic one finds from zionist apologists at universities or public forums on the ME. He falsely attributes statements to his opponents that they never made. Please quote the source you apparently have at hand, where I question israel's existence, or deny its right to exist alongside a Palestinian state.

Dear Alicia, There is enough hot air in Israel to send you and all Israelis into any galaxy you desire. Just keep banging your heads together and keep up that hard line and bingo you all will ascend into outer space. Free of charge, then it will be earth to Israel! Got it? Dutch

Not quite as fast as Arafat responded to Israel's initiative in 2000 - by launching his filthy intifada that has cost so many lives on both sides.

..make sure, will you darling, that KOSHER food will be served during the space-journey: that is briefly: NO pig:pork/ham, NO bloody steaks: the blood must be let out first (in spite of whatever Mr.Toaff has written),fish with fins and scales only. We love gefilte-fish especially! Make sure they also have parve, for it is forbidden to us Jews to mix meat and milk. Therefore two sets of dishes are also needed. I prefer silver plates. What else? - oh, yes, candles for shabbos and holidays, and of course shabbos-wine; it has to be KOSHER, too, preferably Israeli: Carmel or Yarden. 2004 was an excellent year! Make sure the spaceship will have that in stock plentily! We will also need flour to bake challahs and matzos. Now I think I am all set...I will get back to you with my notes and lists of items needed on the journey, when I come up with more. Catch you later, love, bye for now.

They are not honest. Another whipping by Hiz will bring them to some senses.

Explain to me how it made dealing with Lebanon any easier when Hezbollah declared war? I'll agree that it's easier for Israel to deal with the problem state to state if it means that Israel can declare war on the state and evict its members in case of attack. Otherwise, I don't think so.

Arab movements. I wish Swiss (Dino) joined you and I wish other posters and especially the Arab ones (Fawaz is one such example) would do the same. I look forward to this type of approch to peace making. Thank you again, todah rabbah, rabbah lach m'yerushalayim (thank you very very much from Jerusalem) in a Israeli born accent.

IN CAS EYOU HAVENET NOTICED BALLISTIC DAUGHTER OF FARRAKAN THE JEW BAITER . THER ARE 22 ARAB STAES ALREADY THERE IS NO NEDD FOR ANY MORE !!!

WHEN YOU MOVE FROM THE NATIVE AMERICAN CEMETERY OF NATICK DORIS YOU CAN TRY AND LECTURE ME !! IN ALL THE YEARS I HAVE CORRESPONDED WITH YOU OR THROUGH TALKBACKS I HAVE CHALLENEGED YOU ABOUT MUSLIM APARTHEID AGAINST WOMEN AND OTHER FAITHS AND YOU REMAIN SILENT !! ISRAEL IS A FREE SOCIETY WHICH PAID AGITATORS LIKE YOU CAN ONLY ENVY !!

won't be basing the Pal settlement on any biblical or otherwise 3,000 year old land claims. It is ridiculous for you to bring that up, but many posters have. The settlement will be based on the mandate and whatever other applicable agreements and int'l law applies, not the bible. Pals have been living in the land and will continue to live in the land and you, my friend, will have to adjust and get used to it because there is NO world support to deport them for your convenience and comfort!

To the best of my recollection, Yaakov, you have questioned Israel's right to exist all together. Why, therefore, do you care one way or another about how Israel conducts it affairs if it has no right to exist?

Waw, I can't beleave this! Israel is responding to the Arab Peace Initiative after 5 years of its launching! That is real fast, given Israeli technology speed! I recommend, Israel to install a PC speed booster! I guess in the future, it can take 3 years!

replied to your theoretical question. Israel does not ask Abbas to wipe out anyone because he can not. Israel does ask Hamas a simpeler thing to do: To accept the three demands of the internaional community. As soon as Hamas accept the three demands of the international community Israel's government announced more than once of its wilingness to enter negotiations with the Hamas itself. It is that simple, yet even this simple step is being refused by Hamas that continues the tradition to never miss an opportunity of missing an opportunity. These are our neighbors, Danite, and I am sorry for that.

any int'l law there forbidding the acquisition of territory by force! Small oversight, but you are forgiven. What is this nonsense about good and bad occupiers. The term 'occupation' defines itself; it is never good. Even poor ole Bush said on an interview that he would not like to be occupied and understands why Iraqis (and hence Pals) would object and fight against it. Regards.