Let Arabs tell the truth

maybe we can find a subject sometime that doesn't pit a friend against a friend? ah well; it's a thought anyway... so until we do; all i ask is that you remember that i am... have a wonderful day! sincerely.

You know yours and I mine. I am basically with one foot in Israel and the other in NYC; maybe I know some thing about the 2 places, maybe you know another thing. Let's meet again on another subject. Best, S

it's not that i don't "believe" you "S"; it's that from the very first i understood the intent of the t-shirt. and that intent is not to incite nor to promote violence. nyc is not the middle-east. and i venture to say that you didn't explore this org. when i first sent a link; so i sent this one to a short speach by rabbi feinburg of the "greater ny labor religion coalition": http://www.awaam.org/uploads/feinberg.mov but regardless. if you can't see that the thing was meant to motivate young arabic women, not to violence, but to stand up and take an active role in american society, and to overcome the bias against against them; then it's because you don't want to see. and THAT my friend, is the absolute worst form of stereotyping there is; and the most damaging to those it's held against. this organization is trying to make positive changes for arabic community in nyc, and specifically for arabic women; but it's been "trashed" by right wing bigots in the ny media and government. i am prejudice against no one "S", except for those who are. p.s.-take note that NO issue was made about the exisitance of the t-shirts until the right-wing gestapo connected almontaser to the org. that was selling them. where was the "outrage" before that? there was none, and there really still isn't one; except in these talkbacks the reason for that is the t-shirts aren't the issue; the school is the issue, and those who oppose it found a means to discredit it. they say that "ignorance is bliss", and perhaps they may be right? but ignorance remains what it is, and bliss is not worth the price! i "believe" in humanity!

"You seem to have a problem with freedom of speech." Seem to have? Maybe the problem is with your reading. The only point I retract is "most," since I do not know how many servers are hosts to jihadis. I know for certain that some are in the US, including, for example google in ca. As such a big supporter of freedom of speech, it should in no way upset or worry you.

mark, Very funny post. But you may have been too subtle for Cipora.

CJK Where did I say that I have problem with freedom of speech?~ The issue in that case is in fact one of separation of Church and State ANY, ?My point is, that you seem to have a problem with freedom of speech.? This was from how your posts read. Also; 1. There is no issue here regarding separation of church and state. It is about freedom of speech. 2. In America there are laws that protect the state, anti-sedition laws are but one of them. We have no problem that requires new laws. 3. Still waiting for answer to my request for proof or retraction that ?Most jihadi websites are hosted in the US. Jihadi websites are used to recruit terrorists.?

Where did I say that I have problem with freedom of speech. I specifically said that the T-shirts are not illegal. I also said that if either of the two individuals felt that their civil rights were violated, they can sue. The man is already suing. The principle has already resigned. The issue in that case is in fact one of separation of Church and State. As for recruitement of terrorists: it is done through various forms of speech. The big dilemma for Western governments is how to deal with speech that is a recruiting tool for terrrorists while preserving freedom of speech. I wonder who is being naive here, and whether the naivte is real or feigned.

Most jihadi websites are hosted in the US. Jihadi websites are used to recruit terrorists. Are you indifferent to the recruitement of terrorists? I am not certain what is the point of your post. Please provide link to the jihad websites in the US that are used to recruit terrorists. My point is, that you seem to have a problem with freedom of speech.

I looked at your link "http://www.awaam.org/index.php?name=pressroom" No answer to my question. Sorry. "Intifada NYC" is equivalent with "start killing in NYC!" I understand now what you believe and what you do not believe. Example for the last: me. For the former: those who want to kill me. And that, from the little I know from Israel's history, is since 1929 at least.

i have answered the question; several times over. my mistake was apparently that i did so using my own thoughts to explain a "concept" to those who cannot fathom it because of personal bias(hence the longwindedness, nemesis). there IS no defense against an attack of rumor and innuendo, especially when it's fueled by stereotype and bigotry in an environment of fear, hysteria, and distrust. it's easily propagated and grows quickly(ie: the witch hunts, the inquisition, the holocaust). so much for MY thoughts. today i sought out THEIR thoughts: http://www.awaam.org/index.php?name=pressroom its the first article the under the links. and i was pretty much right on. it helps sometimes to maintain an open mind, and to form your own judgements instead of letting others form them for you. and to you, nemesis, if you prefer comic books to novels, you may want to avoid my posts. i tend to explain my answers to avoid them being misconstrued. its bad enough dealing with the label "antisemitic" for everything said without adding to it with one line opinions.

It is the recruitement that is a huge problem in the UK. The speech, in various forms, such as open on the streets, or in mosques, or on videos, which lead to terrorist recruitement is also a huge problem in the UK. It can be a problem in the US also, or have you not heard of the blind Sheikh? Most jihadi websites are hosted in the US. Jihadi websites are used to recruit terrorists. Are you indifferent to the recruitement of terrorists? I am not certain what is the point of your post.

He never answers the questions put to him does he? Just avoids and spins and writes a book about nothing..never seen a short,concise,to the point post from Eric from NM yet.

It is well known that Nazi parades are allowed in the US, as are other very controversial forms of speech. In the UK, the jihadists openly preach jihad, sharia, the virtues of beheadings, etc..., and recruit with their speeches. It is a huge problem there. I am unaware that it is a huge problem in the UK. But if you are saying that it is a huge problem here in America, you are greatly mistaken. We have freedom of speech. And it includes everyone. We have no problem with it at all, it works well for us. T Shirts are legal as well.

Civilians were the great majority of the over 1000 dead Israelis! In almost daily suicide bombings. NOT Palestinians! They were mostly terrorists fighters. But, wow! You really go on the sides...It was about INTIFADA NYC remember? Over 5000 dead in Intifada Israel you want repeated in a NYC Intifada???

is off the mark. those 4000 dead palestinians were not killed by the intifada; they were killed by the idf! and yes...the majority of them were innocents... you've made my point so well...

and that is exactly what it is. The 'Palestinian Problem' which is in actual fact finding a homeland and State for Arab refugees who have been made homeless and displaced by different Arab/Israeli Wars should be no problem for Arab Leaders to confront.they conveniently turn a blind eye to their responsibility to solving this problem when with their vast territories, this conflict might easily be solved. Arabswith their Billions are b uilding new cities every day. DUBAI is just one. Why not give over a piece of land to their very own Brethren and solve this problem once and for all. Its an 'Arab Conspiracy' to punish Israel.

Excellent Post ka. "The suffering of the Palestinian people is a deliberate and chosen tactic perpetuated by Arab governments and leaders who use the palestinians to gain their ultimate end" which is TO BLAME ISRAEL and thereby put the whole onus of their welfare upon the shoulders of the Jewish State. True to say that the actual care and welfare of the Palestinian people who are actually ARABS, has to be the responsibility of the ARAB governments and leaders and certainly not on Israel. Appeasing the ARABS......? LET ARABS TELL THE TRUTH.

If AL-AQSA INTIFADA (2000-2007) resulted in over 4000 dead Palestinians and over 1000 dead Israelis, the great majority innocent civilians, then, what is the meaning of "INTIFADA NYC"?

Talk about chutzpah. I have never read a more ingenuous post. So the Palestinians wrote the Balfour Declaration, inviting into their newly liberated territory the possibility of massive immigration from Europe and the USA, etc. before they had the chance for self-determination. The Palestinians were responsible for the threat of a foreign state being installed on their territory. The Palestinians were responsible for being terrorized out of their homes. The Palestinians were responsible for the King David bombing, Deir Yassin, illegal settlements, all of which began with the infamous Balfour Declaration. The Israeli army is wantonly slaughtering innocent civilians along with "wanted militants" (what happened to arrests and trials?), homes are bulldozed, checkpoints and settlements have caused travel to become impossible, and the Palestinians are doing all this just to get sympathy. Could there possibly be a better way?

Dont blame those that are afraid of the culture of death.What would you call a culture tat trains its men to fly into buildings, blow up railroad stations killing innocent civilians. Train theirchildren to become killerd and get paid for it. Why havent we heard more from those that are insulted by our reaaction to their killing.

You ask, "Why is the suffering of the Palestinians a 'sensitive issue?' " Quite simply because while they do truly suffer they do nothing to alleviate the situation, they would rather suffer than compromise, they use their suffering as tactic to destroy Israel most of it is self-inflicted, they manipulate world opinion with it. It has been preserved, elongated and ultimately CHOSEN by the Palestinians as a price they are willing to pay inorder to get rid of Israel. The suffering of the so-called Pals is their choice as they turn their back on compromise, educate their kids to hate, continually choose to go for it all instead of sharing... Most sickening of all is the world press..that has latched onto the tactic ...and in so doing has made it worthwhile to continue the suffering. The suffering of any people is sad...but this is a deliberate and chosen tactic perpetuated by Arab governments and leaders who use the pals to gain their ultimate end.

I would ask why are such people allowed to remain in the US roaming about free, when they are seen to have the portential of being a dangerous element? They have shown clearly what lies deepest in their hearts - it was written all over them!

i've skirted skirted nothing, and i don't dance. i told you that i understood your point. and not just because "i" say so; but because the symbol is sacred to many people around the world. and if you want a specific answer i'll tell you quite simply that i would indeed be able to voice my thoughts on the subject. don't think for a second that i'm not sensitive to the horrors they've endured; and were i among them they would be able to perceive that. they may not agree with my suggestion, although i venture that some just might, yet they would KNOW it was not to minimize their ordeal at the hands of the nazis; but is instead a hope to retrieve something they've stolen. as to the nyc bombing; NO palestinians were involved. "intifada" is a word used almost exclusively by palestinians to define their resistance against israeli oppression. generally speaking, they have no qualms with the u.s. nor with americans; except for our blind support of israel(even hamas has alluded to this). since the word was first used, there have been only a few isolated incidents of attacks on americans. their "intifada" has not been, nor is it the same as, or a part of, the "world terrorism" taking place at the hands al-qa'ida/muslim extremists. nor are they associated with them. theirs is not an ideological/religious struggle and it is NOT "jihad". "intifada" is a call to action; "to rise up and in the face of oppression"; to resist! and if you took to the time to explore the link i sent in my post, it should be easy enough to see that is exactly how the word was being used on these t-shirts. it's an arabic woman's group!(oppressed from within and without?) i don't wear any tees with logos, sayings, etc...but i would not hesitate to point out what i've said above; not for rudeness, but to clarify. the t-shirt exemplified NO hate; the attacks on ms. almontaser DO!

Susan hello Conclusion: The Islamiss have to realize that they cannot continue with their "Jihadi" mentality,and begin to search their souls on what they have been tryin to impose on the "world community".Time they stop and come to their senses.They must begin to LOVE LIFE INSTEAD OF GLORIFYING DEATH!The person's who advocated using this venture must have been deluded into thinking it will be to the benefit of the Arab/Muslim population living either in the U.S or in any other Western country.The more they try it by inflicting their way of life,the more they will be vanquished with dire consequences.Time they wake up to reality...

eric, you are repeating yourself and I understood you long time ago. I answered it saying that it is OK to think and talk your mind among the like minded. But you are NEVER answering any of my very few short sentences. What do you do in THOSE cases I mentioned? And how do you know when you are, or are not, in such situations? One more question: How do you decide that time is NOW ripe (because eric says so) to forget, while so many people alive have not forgotten because what happened marked them for life? Come now eric, you are not living in a vacuum, these are simple question and concepts. Why are you dancing around them?

It is not a matter of freedom of speech when those who are eager to hurt us use our freedoms against us.

Freedom of speech has its limits. It is forbidden in an airport to joke about bombs or terrorism, for example, you can be kicked off your flight. It is forbidden to speak abusively to the flight attendent or fellow passengers, you can be arrested upon landing. An inflammatory, provocative t-shirt doesn't belong on the flight either, not when people are trapped together for hours on a plane like that. As for the principal, it is understood that as an authority figure who is expected to command the respect of the students, parents, and staff, she is also held to a higher standard, the highest. Racist and sexist remarks that are protected speech elsewhere are not tolerated in schools, especially where the principal is concerned. If she was making excuses for a t-shirt that said, "Burn, baby, burn" we'd all understand why it was unacceptable. We should not apologize for feeling the same way about an equivalent shirt in Arabic, that just as clearly advocates a riot.

So far, the rooting out has been a total flub. The nine hijackers of the New York towers were not at all suspect. On the other hand, many innocent civilians have been arrested for NOTHING. How do you propose to "root out" the terrorists? There are about 1.3 billion Muslims in our world. Bonne chancce!

i understand your point, however; i think its time that the symbol IS disassociated from from the fiends who abused it... and it's not so difficult when you consider that the symbol is benign. it was taken and used by villains and made to represent something it is NOT! today the villains are gone and the symbol remains benign, except to those whose perception of it make it otherwise. the hijackers of 9/11, and many other terrorists, carry out their acts in God's name and for His glory. Do we shun God because of that; revile Him as an icon of terrorism? nuff said...i feel that the symbol should be restored to what it has symbolized for thousands of years; and you prefer to maintain for all eternity, the stigma placed on because for 20 years it was the nazi symbol. we will each feel what we will, i suppose. as for the t-shirt? once again i will say that i very much doubt if its intent was in any way derogatory or that it carried any dark sinister message. "shake it off" or "rise up" nyc, could actually be perceived as a positive thing. it all depends on how one WANTS to perceive it. remember too, this was more of a personal attack against this lady by ultra-conservatives in the city gov and the media. the t-shirt afforded them the means; nothing else. note that the group who printed them is not named; lest it diffuse the sinister connotations her attackers allude to... http://www.awaam.org/

Arabs would have a right to complain if they put an equal amount of effort trying to crack down on their own extremists; they do not. The majority of Muslims silently approve or do nothing to prevent radicalization of their society and as such they have no right to complain when people profile Muslims are potential terrorists. Most of today's terrorists are Muslims, period. This fact might be politically incorrect, but it remains a fact nonetheless. If moderate Muslims and yourself wish to fight back against anti-Muslim hostility then you must first crack down on extremists and prove that there is a moderate Muslim movement to begin with. Right now we don't see it. Your stories about the shirt and the use of the word intifada are also very ignorant. You can no more argue their case than you can argue that today that the word "Gay" stills means "happy". Yes, it might have meant that years ago but it makes no sense to argue that meaning today.

Your Timothy McVeigh argument would have merit if there were thousands like him committing their terrorist acts against innocents. There are not to be found except among the practitioners of Islam. Perhaps Islam would be better served by some serious introspection and reform then knee jerk defensiveness - Islam has a real cult of death problem that will be its downfall.

"i WILL defend the symbol (swastica)...", etc, (eric) In a society of like minded, why not? But you may hesitate in a room filled with Holocaust survivors and many others who lost their families in the Holocaust. By the way, it's difficult to dissociate this symbol from another: "Heil Hitler" Also, to wear "Intifada NYC" near a woman friend of mine who lost her husband in 9/11 would be the height of rudeness.

Nemesis, My friend. I did not say anything at # 414, but maybe you meant #433, and I hope that you have seen my response at # 483. Pray for me and may be I 'll get lucky and leave The West (Wow! You're a real imperialist, wnating to chase me out of not only the US -- which I am assuming is your country, but I may be wring! -- but out of the whole WEST. Anyway, you read the news that the Israelis are trying to reconcile Hamas and Fatah? It seems that they listen to my peace message rather than to your hate message. Sorry for you, mate!

well, with the permission of this forum i'd like to sugest a few declarations of intent for the american t shirts mfr.: "proud to be a palestinian martyr" "intifada here and now" "hitler was right"

Ken, Cool down, man! If you read Bradley Burston well ( you understand English, right?), you will see that he is only advocating that Arabs and Muslims TELL THE TRUTH, speak up for their legal rights. And, beleive me, we ARE dong that, as I have informed Mr. Bradley at # . I even invited him to do his part. I am also gald to tell you that Senator Ray Mc Govern and VIPS (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity) also are doing the same thing -- uphold the principles of the American Constitution. I am in Canada and I think Canada is the most civilized country in the world. I condemn terrorism, properly understood as indiscrimnate aggression against civilians. But that does not mean I have to give up my rights because collective guilt is being wrongly imposed on me. I wish you great prosperity. Please don't call me . PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE!

Americans are very different than Israelis. If they start blowing up bombs here in the USA Muslims will be afraid to leave their houses . Houses and whole neighborhoods will be burned to the ground. Read USA history. 54 Hindus were killed on a bus and the Indians killed more than 500 Muslims for revenge.(Indians are the most peace loving people on earth ).Forget our army and the police. You need to worry about 30 million very active civilians. If they try it here their own people will pay a huge price.

How many is enough for you? Kahane party is banned in the USA AND in Israel. Hesballah is a major Lebanese party looking to rule Lebanon. It's leader has commited himself to killing ALL Jews everywhere. If that is not enough this calls a lot of other Moslems the same cause " The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! Interstingly none of this is to be found on your website. What do you expect Jews to think.?? Never mind Americans do know of the endless numbers of Moslems plots(and murders) in the USA and elsewhere against both civillian and military US citizens. The plot to blow up Kennedy airport was a plot against NYC as well.Is THAT on your website?

Ariel Sharon was very aware of 2 things from an early age. !. The enemys of Israel will never stop trying to destroy Israel and 2. Israels enemys have no idea what truth is and never speak it. ............A single United States submarine waits quietly in the ocean.

I was born in SA: my fault obviously. I left before the regime changed.

According to the New York Times, a Hebrew language school which just opened in Florida is under scrutiny because it is deemed that it is impossible to teach the Hebrew language without teaching religion. The school, which has four hundred slots, received eight hundred applications in one week. The students are not all Jewish. Nevertheless, the very concept is being questioned as a violation of the separation between Curch and State, including by the now infamous ADL. The fact that this first page news was totally ignored is rather amusing.

Palestinian Brit, this was a mistake in understanding by Zekeria. I was referring to Israel taking water from Lebanon and he understood it the other way around.

Eric, do you have an open mind? IF you do, then read the Quran. What happened in America and Moslem-terrorism that happens everywhere, is in accordance with the teachings of the Quran. The core message is to submit the entire world under Islam through violence: through "fire" as it is put in the Quran. This is the objective of ALL violence the Moslems practise. This is all there in their Book, all you need to do is to read it in order to understand what is threatening the West. "Intifada NYC" is a declaration of war onto America. "Shaking off" all the democratic freedoms and rights we enjoy in the Western world, because they are regarded as "haram", that is evil, in the eyes of Islam. The Sharia and our freedoms, our democracy and the rights we enjoy, are in stark contrast with the Sharia, therefore they are fought against in order to uproot them. Islam forbids the Moslems to deal with the non-Moslems in any other way! We are "hypocrites"; to be treated accordingly.

Geographically Lebanon is north of Israel, so how can it take Israeli water? It surely is entitled to do what it likes with the water within its boundaries. Time Isrel got on with de-salination like every other country with a similar water problem. Too busy counting its pennies, I suppose. Spend less on nuclear weapons and more on water!

Of course the will not accept "any kind of independence" which is born out of Israel's left - overs or bits of land they don't really want. Or with Israel maintaining control of land sea or air. Is that really independence? Of course not - and so far that is all they have been offered.

You tell people "my spicy answers are always in response to direct provocations from some." which leads me to suspect that my very presence here is direct provocation to you since you see my name and begin screaming insults. Though you yourself live in a country that doesn't have clean hands in too many spheres to mention here the fact that I lived in South Africa is enough for you to condemn me. I call that racist and bigoted and it puts you on the bottom rung of the apologists here. You've gratuitously insulted a whole lot of people including Danite and Cipora and Akram Zekaria and one wonders what you get out of dealing in personalities and issues as if they're all the same thing.

While I can accept the milder meaning of intifada that has been given in this forum, there is still the violent aspect of intifada that really needs to be addressed. I think it is really up to the Muslim community to speak out and try to reach their brothers as well as expect understanding from the non-Muslims. I don't intend to offend by suggesting this.

roaming freely in the USA! Those two 'would-be's' are among many who should be deported i back to where they truly belong because they were obviously wearing their hearts - and their minds, on their T-Shirts. What is America doing, allowing such people of which there must be millions in the US enjoying 'a piece of that American pie' when they should be sweltering it out back in their own backyards.....

Symbols and words are very powerful things. And I absolutely agree they can and do conjure up very strong emotions.

Peter SM, the only Jew that I know of that was targeted in NYC was Kahane. You make it sound as if there was a festival of killings; who are you talking about?

What I mean by extremely earnest? (I mean what it is) earnest: "Marked by or showing deep sincerity or seriousness" also "determined". extremely: means very much so... Regards, S

Howdy Jeff Thanks for the information on swastikas. We're only human beings and the connections between innocent objects and human deeds good or bad are made in our minds. The object remains innocent but the connection is permanent. You can't persuade people to uncouple the linking by telling them that what they perceive is wrong and that's what's been going on in this column. People here are trying to persuade others that the emotions raised by a particular word are not valid because they themselves have another, milder reaction. They can tell you the facts and leave it to you to accept but that's only on the plane of logic: emotion is still king.

Yes, it mighty hilarious. In the state of New York, of all places, we're supposed to believe, only "Jews" were offended with demonstrations of support for terrorism. I guess the rest of New Yorkers (and Americans) were like "YAY for terrorism, I wanna buy a t-shirt, too!" Until you know, that mind control.

I am not aware of anyone who attacked Almontaser or her friends physically. I have actually enjoyed the discourse I have had with others on this board. It has been most refreshing to have the discussions with Walid, Mark Lincoln, KUTW and even Sam. I have also read about Almonteser's background. I will stand by my statements as being honest and forthright. I don't honestly believe every dialogue has to be sterile or politically correct.

"I said it appears the T-Shirt is a test which reveals what people want to see in it." For example, when you lied that both t-shirts were written in Arabic, when in fact, "intifada nyc" is printed in English?

Margie, you asked about the possibility of my hypocricy because of my dual nationality. Sorry I did not answer earlier, i just saw your message. This came about when I was dragged to what became my second country, kicking and screaming at age 9. The only reason I returned was because of the weather that I always remembered and missed and now with the globe warming up and the weather there mild most of the time, I'm seriously considering moving back. Speaking of dual nationalities, when did you move from South Africa; was before or after the regime changed.

Jon Feigenbaum, instead of baiting Danite, who is among the nicest people here, why don't you jump into the ring yourself and show me what you are made of.

Peter SM, Aside from 911, New York experienced more violence at the hand of Jews than Arabs and if you are referring to the Arab who shot Kahane, here what is written about Kahane's NYC activities; see link for sources: A 1985 FBI study of terrorist acts in the United States since 1981 found 18 incidents initiated by Jews, 15 of the acts by the JDL.4 In a 1986 study of domestic terrorism, the Department of Energy concluded: ?For more than a decade, the Jewish Defense League (JDL) has been one of the most active terrorist groups in the United States....Since 1968, JDL operations have killed 7 persons and wounded at least 22. Thirty- nine percent of the targets were connected with the Soviet Union; 9 percent were Palestinian; 8 percent were Lebanese; 6 percent, Egyptian; 4 percent, French, Iranian, and Iraqi; 1 percent, Polish and German; and 23 percent were not connected with any states. Sixty-two percent of all JDL actions are directed against property; 30 percent against businesses; 4 percent against academics and academic institutions; and 2 percent against religious targets.?5 The JDL was suspected in two high-profile murders over the years. One came in 1972 when a bomb exploded in impresario Sol Hurok?s Manhattan office on Jan. 26. The explosion killed his receptionist, Iris Kones, 27, while Hurok and 12 others were injured. The JDL was suspected because Hurok was bringing Soviet performers to the United States.6 http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/pg-jdl.html

Nemesis, Hereunder is your answer. Not in US, but even in Canada, fair question. Did my studies here in 1970's, went back to my country, served African development for long years, lately my gynaecologist wife got a job in Canada, and with my experience with Canadian education, I thought we'd accept. What happens next? Read the subject sentence. Satisfied.

Your Hassan Nasrallah said he wants to kill ALL Jews.Have you forgotten? No,Walid it was not a slow week for ADL its worry about next week.

He's now pretending "you're not here" . You DO have him on the ropes, KEEP him there!

ACCOEDING TO WALID, ONLY the Jews were offended by the t-shirts,. It was ONLY after "the Jews" TOLD the other New Yorkers to be offended...they were. WOW! If we had that kind of influence. getting people to like..or dislike SOMETHING, WELL....i HAVE "A really nice" BRIDGE In Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!

Cipora, you started your post to the virtuous woman from Tel Aviv by saying "that woman" as if pronouncing her name of Montasser would give you beriberi or something. Please read what you wrote and how you referred to her.

Danite, it's very simple; be polite and you will get politeness back from me and talk to me like a gabe and I will answer you as a gabe would. If this is too hard to grasp, don't address me at all and that way I won't address you but I would prefer to carry on a civil discusion with you. We were doing fine with our dialogue on the people of Dan and how their territory stretched into present day Lebanon and how you were chief of your chapter until you pulled a Mr Hyde out of nowhere on me for no reason one day and started gabing me.

Danite, Walid's posts are generally quite intelligent...He seems to dialgoue in a healthy way. He doesn't revert to accusations of "genocide" whenever faced with challenging issues. Do you think it is the Jewish persecution complex coming out? Who knows.... Regarding the actual topic....It was kosher to wear Che Gueverra shirts during the height of the cold war....The Jewish hysteria over the word intifaddeh harkens back to filthy McCarthyism... Get over it....

You're opinion of me means nothing..I consider the source..you're totally irrelevant.

"According to you, the "intifada T-shirt" has become a Roshach test for hystericals, especially Jewish ones in NY." - Cipora I said it appears the T-Shirt is a test which reveals what people want to see in it. I said nothing about "Jewish." "Yet, the article makes it very clear, and so have I, that the problem was with the fact that this woman was designated to be principal of an Arabic school." - Cipora That is the problem isn't it Cipora? That all Arabs are not exterminated so you can feel better? "Municipalities have the right to make sure that children are not being indoctrinated." - Cipora An no accusation of 'indoctrination' religious or otherwise was made or proven. She used one of the two words of Arabic the average bigot has heard on a T-Shirt and she is in trouble. What if it had said "Algebra"? "I have heard of Nazi marches in small American cities, protected by the police." - Cipora If they hated Arabs instead of Jews you would love the parade.

Gina, I did not say that New Yorkers were not repulsed by terroriosts butchery but that the repulsion about the T-shirt incident was mostly by the Jews and of course by New Yorkers after they were told they should be offended by the Jews. It was a Jewish campaign to make trouble for Montaser. Must have been a slow week for the ADL.

the problem with many these days is either to many people are to sensitive or use this as an excuse to hide the bigotry, some use the "it is offending" excuse to hide the real reason, but i have noticed one thing, people these days just cry over anything for the sake of either boredom or showing off their " toughness", get over it, you can't say you have and protect freedom of speech while at the same time enforcing the opposite, and american politicians rubbish other countries for this, hence the american governments dictatorship, which they vehemntly deny, give us a break will you.

After a long time, you have again succeeded in single-handedly (literally?) overcoming the computer system which was rigged to automatically allow for new lines and empty lines. No more new paragraphs. Alas.

Hey Walid I thought you were the Walid from Canada right? Why are you badgering Akram with your incessant pestering? Is this a ?third degree? or what? I know Akram can take of himself very well. But I found it infuriating by the ?to and fro? accusations interrogation etc,and had to take a stand.(Sorry Akram). Akram has been very polite and quite patient with all your queries.What are you after? His ?Autobiography?? Were I in Akrams place I?d soon tell you to take ?a running jump? for the discourtesy/ persistence,and trying to ask personal questions which I am sure you would not wish it on yourself. Just accept what he is saying, Israel is ours whether you like it or not.LIVE WITH IT! No such people as Arab Palis! You also infer on the subject of his residence in the U.K. What business is it of yours Walid? Many diaspora Jews live abroad,(as your lot also do remember this reality)! You made the same comment to Margie and her South African background. Shall I remind you of your diaspora Lebanese and where they now reside ? Canada,Australia,U.S,U.K, and more numerous to recount here. But,we don?t ask or remind you where you reside and why.That is your department and speciality,it just so happens is not ours thank the Lord! All you are doing is just harassment and your objective is simply obsession.

just information i've stumbled across before. runes are an interest of mine, as are celtic and american indian art... finding sources for the information is as easy as an internet search... here's two links; one to a history of the swastika and another to pictures of its pasts uses in which you'll note that the most face the same direction as that of the nazis...but also that its direction varied. http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGkwv8mdBGPVwB_ctXNyoA?ei=UTF-8&p=swastika%20ancient%20symbol&y=Search&fr2=tab-web&fr=yfp-t-471 and as far as ms. almontesar is concerned; i don't recall the article stating that any "majority found it distasteful". the woman was forced to resign her position by the negative publicity being brought against her by rightwing politicians, newspaper columnists, and special interest group organizations. such personal attacks do NOT constitute a majority; nor do they reflect the will of any majority. they serve only to promote the agenda of those who perpetuate them.

"if you think kids wearing Intifada NYC T-shirts are a menace," Indoctrinated Palestinian children grow up to slaughter innocent Israeli civilians with Intifada as their battle cry. "New Yorkers weren`t offended by this but Jews were." New Yorkers were offended. "What is the next step, shutting down Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn because all the Arabic food being sold there may be subversive?" If they are named after Palestinian or other Islamic terrorists.

Nemesis, looks like I read you right.

Akiva Patysh, no, I'm not for sharia law.

sorry my friend, its not just indian, the symbol was...and to a large degree still is, universal. its found everywhere in the world; both ancient and modern...and in every instance except one, it's a very positive symbol...even in pagan society. i WILL defend the symbol, and it IS a worthwhile subject. it retains the negative connotation given it by the nazis only because of those who steadfastly refuse to let go and allow it to be recognized for what it has truly symbolized around the world for over 3000 years. see the links in my post to margie in tel aviv...if it ever makes it through.

How true, they are all deviant to various degrees.Thats why we need OUT NOW!!! Regards and thanks.

"I am not your man for Peace" Walid-440. I never thought you are. None of you are ? You are only one of those who pretend you don't understand. Your details mentioned you are from Beirut, what makes you 'you need water from Israel' ? Besides if you are a Palestinian,I told you, you had your Palestine under the name Jordan. The Dead Sea Scrolls is a proof that Jordan is a part of this land.Now it is your Palestine Go and live in it. I also told you if you are Palestinian you must accept Israel and live according the Laws of the country as I am living in the UK. Dis-obey the laws and the law will come after you. That is called civilization. I explained all these home truth on my posts. If you prefer to ignore that i.e Israel is a sovereign State and its laws should be obeyed you will be treated as an enemy of the State & suffer the consquence of your unlawful actions. It is not a game Mr Walid.The matter is settled only some wants to impose their unlawful claims.

I would never use the term "village harlot." I am not even sure what the term would mean in 2007. I have been continually amazed by the misogyny exhibited by various gentlemen posting here.

You said I "stink" in history.I challenege you to prove it or apologise. Chose a topic, lets see what you are really made of.Too bad you cant dialogue in a normnal way, but you are not used to that, it is all ego and power with you guys.Okay then, you insult?? Now back it up.

she sat on the board of directors for the org.

In general, Americans don't like the "karma" Muslims bring with them. They for the most part seem to somewhat approve of the militant Islamic movement throughout the world, and don't try to become part of mainstream society. Americans SEE what Islam is doing to Europe, and NO WAY wnst to contend with it here. To do something like the T=shirt slogan at this time, in this place? BAD MOVE!!

There is no country ON EARTH that could take on the U.S. in a war. Who will attack us? Russia, China? For starters, we are light years ahead in weapons development, and EVEN IF they were "close" and started a war with us, we'd turn their country (ies) into a nuclear wasteland. PLUS, we are for MOST countries the #1 consumer of their goods- Now WHO is going to try and "lose" their best "customer"? Above and beyond all THAT- do you have ANY IDEA what WOULD HAPPEN TO the worlds economy if the U.S. suddenly was "not there"?? Sorry-ain't gonna happen

If the woman feels that her civil rights were violated, then she can file suit. No, I do not know any of the people involved, nor would I want to know any of the people involved. I was not aware of this issue until I read about it here on Haaretz. You should not make any assumptions about me since chances are they would be wrong. Nor am I interested in anything you have to say about the swastika. Several people have tried to explain to you what its symbolic meaning is. You are obviously not pursuaded, for whatever reason, and therefore there is no point to prolonging the discussion.

no one said anything about such acts being justifiable... there is NO justification for them. but they who perpetuate them DO NOT represent the religion they claim to fight for, nor do they reflect the sentiments of the majority of those who practice that religion. they are extremists who promote extreme views that lie outside the mainstream...and they exist in EVERY religion. the difference is that muslims, to large extent, occupy many third-world nations and those with large rural expanses where orthodox and traditional values still predominate...and where extremists thrive. most muslims around the world were just as shocked and stunned as you were on 9/11/01.

Bradley, come on, these people IN AMERICA should never be so stupid as to incite the anger of the people who are literally their hosts. Would an American, born & raised in the USA, be permitted to wear a T-shirt like this in Iran?? Would the American School be passed by if promoting something suspect of not favoring Islam in Saudi Arabia? C'mon Bradley, you have to be sharper than this! But, stupid is as stupid does....

What do you mean by "extremely earnest?"

your comment implies the lady wore the t-shirt. read the first paragraph concerning her. chances are she never even wore the thing. she was judged and maligned for an "association" with an organization that produced and sold them. that she was to be a principal of an arabic language and culture school has no bearing whatsoever on the shirt's intent...nor should she have been forced to resign her position over the prejudice and stereotyping leveled against her by those who malign arabs and muslims in their infinite ignorance. i'm sure you're totally familiar with those of whom i speak. as for the swastika; look it up. i sent links in a previous post to margie, which i'll be resending if it doesn't show up soon.

Tell me what was the point? How do you know New Yorkers weren't offended? Anything that threatens after 911 is offensive. YOU ARE OFFENSIVE ..and you're right..if there were no arabs left on this planet I'd be a happy camper. Take that to the bank,Osama.

Please tell me why all you arabs/muslims/whatever that hate the western lifestyle,seem to migrate like lemmings to the Western world? Is Islam(the famous religion of peace) maybe not so peaceful after all? Or is it just that because of our way of life here,that allows people to express their beliefs freely,within reason,you feel that you can come here and condemn our way of life ,while enjoying the benefits. Personally,I'd like to see each and everyone of you deported back to the sewer that you came out of. Have an acceptable day.

"I totally disapprove of slaughter civilians to do so" Mark Lincoln-373. What Hamas is doing? Keep the answer to yourself you needed it more than others.They are 'slaughtering' their own people in more than one way.They are unable to make peace with their own 'brothers' Fatah, how you expect them to make Peace with Israel ?? "But then there was the Palmach.."ML-373 You did not allow yourself to remember that Palmach was pre-Israel & pre-IDF one of the very few forces of its time to help building the country. "That seems to have ended when the Likud came to power"ML-373 Was'nt the Likud the only party that managed to make Peace with Egypt & break the backbone of the danger of Arab countries against Israel. Who deserve your credit Mr Lincoln ?Those who brought Arafat to Israel doors ?Those who conceded Oslo and dag roots for terorrist neighbours next door to Israel ?Thick headed like Peres.Shameless,whose only role to take Israel to successions of dangers?

If anyone is stupid, it's ignorant personage.

getting a grip on an entirely way of life is just impossible these days.

Akram Zekaria, you persist in referring to me as a man of peace or asking me if I'm one. I'm not the Ghandi type but I do wish for peace with our neighbours and I have no problems with Israel's existence or with its 67 borders including some modifications to allow for some of the settlements on the WB. I have a problem with a wall that steals land and water and with settlements that continue expanding and making the Palestinians more and more hopeless that Israel will one day be satiated of its lust for land. If you find my hopes too much for you, then you can relish the thought that I'm not your man of peace.

1) I find your your viewpoints incomprehensible to me. Now that you say that you are Xian, I feel even more confused about them. 2) I learned about the Japanese incarceration first recently in another connection. I know hardly anything about it. I have never heard Am-Japanese raise their voices to complain about how they were treated. Why haven't they? 3) The 11/9 I have lived to experience. Therefore it is close to my heart. It took a long time for me to recover from the shock. The atrocities were sheer insanity! 4) To do evil in the name of any god is, in my opinion, abuse of god and religion. I do not find such abuse justifiable in any connection of evil-doing. Because G-D represents moral good and religion is our way to G-D, to learn about what constitues a good, ethical life.

Lynn, My arguement is not that what happened was right. But, that it was do e in thoughtlessness, not maliciousness. Hence, the response was inappropriate to the the offense. Without an imminent physical offense, discourse should be the first recourse to a conflict.

Lynn, thank you for your kind words. I wish I could dialogue like this with all the Jewish posters here but some make it impossible and my spicy answers are always in response to direct provocations from some.

Think why there is occupation in the first place - not because Israel woke up one morning and decided to occupy. That's for starters. Secondly, the Palestinians have consistently over the years avoided and rejected any and all offers and chances for independence - which they always found reasons and excuses to reject, making more and more demands on Israel, a tiny country as you know with very specific and definite security needs. No sign of compromise on the part of the Palestinians. The only thing they are in fact repeatedly resisting is any kind of independence and a brighter future for their kids.

Nemesis, if you think kids wearing Intifada NYC T-shirts are a menace, your paranoia has reached the point where you must seek help. Tell me you hate Arabs and I'll understand; tell me the T-shirts will remind you of the Arabs that you hate and I'll still understand but don't give me this crap about a subtle message being sent out for some Arab uprising in NYC. New Yorkers weren't offended by this but Jews were. What is the next step, shutting down Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn because all the Arabic food being sold there may be subversive?

"In the Nakba, Israeli militas gang-raped, tortured, and murdered Palestinian girls as young as twelve." Do you have proof of your allegations, or are you just assming this to be true because this is what militias do around the world?

According to you, the "intifada T-shirt" has become a Roshach test for hystericals, especially Jewish ones in NY. Yet, the article makes it very clear, and so have I, that the problem was with the fact that this woman was designated to be principal of an Arabic school. Municipalities have the right to make sure that children are not being indoctrinated. You should know, and I made it clear in my previous post on this matter, that if people wanted to wear such a T-shirt as private individuals, no one will stop them. I suspect that provocative speech will be more acceptable to people in NYC, where people are used to many different nationalities, ethnicities and creeds. Nevertheless, I have heard of Nazi marches in small American cities, protected by the police.

This shabby soul also inferred that you were a proponenet of apartheid because you are also originally from South Africa.

Gabe, I am flattered that you tried 5 times to get your message through but I'm disappointed how you have not yet understood that I have nothing to do with Hizbullah. No Gabe, I don't dislike Jews or Zionists in general, just the land and water thieving ones. Are you taking Hannah out for the usual Sunday drive tomorrow? I hope the weather stays nice.

ahh yes the man with multiple personalities on an Israeli site demanding an opinion. whew, Margie proably replied already but you're so up to your ears in dung from your other personae to notice. Of course coming from a country where it's fashionable to be half-cocked before noon....what's the surprise. ahh labhras, those were the days eh, bombing and killing innocent women and children, what a great background you have, so busy spilling your guilt out over here, projecting upon us all. may you keep boycotting us like you boycott this site. hehe you just can't. hehe,talk about weak.

if you like. As long as it doesn't have NYC on it, and maybe instead have LONDON on it, I won't give a damn. Yes, good idea, wear a shirt in the UK with "Intifada London" on it. Should gain you a great deal of popularity just like Almontaser.

When are you going to condemn the crimes of the IRA? Of course I condemn apartheid. You have no idea of my background and I'm not going to spell it out for you. You are boring and have been discredited several times. Please don't address me again if you can't find anything intelligent to say. Does it give you pleasure to know that everyone sees what a fool you are?

"against the use of the harmless word of intifada,' Sympathizing with terrorist murder of civilians in not harmless. Further, only a bigot would believe it is only "Jews" who were outraged at the "intifada nyc" t-shirt. NonJews in the United States are repulsed by Palestinian terrorist butchery as well.

"Muslims often denounce terror by denouncing the terrorist actions of so-called Israel and the USofA. " Which gives them zero credibility with most Americans, and thus, their vocal aversion to the "intifada" t-shirt.

Oh, cm'on, J! It is Muslims who are scared like hell, always hunted like rabbits. Stop pretending being on the defensive. Peace is at hand, if you are ready. The other day, Haaretz published a poll -- if Palestinian elections are held now, Abbas would get 20%, Haniyeh 18%, Marwan Barghouti 16% even while the peaceful guy who started the second Intifada is in prison. The rest of the world calls him "the Mandela of the Middle East". Today's news is that Meshal contacted the Israelis to reassure them that Shalit is alive. What do you want more? The writing is on the wall -- release Marwan, he'll know how to reconcile the positions of ALL of: the Israelis, Meshal/Haniyeh, and Abbas, and peace would be at hand. Cm'on! It takes just a little courage, and belief in oneself, to have peace, especially when you have the upper hand, as the Israelis now have. But, when Bush is routed in Iraq (leaving that unfortunate country also ruined), the Israelis won't have the upper hand.

"Some (Israeli) are just as appalled as I am at what their state is doing in their name" Walid-250. Aren't you appalled Walid of what you are writting in your name ? Like the rest of them, the truth is under their skin. And that is not concerning their hate only of the Jews but their also their hate of each other, in Iraq, Nahr-al-Bared,the War with Iran, the War with Kuwait, Hamas vs Fatah, Algeria, Syria & Lebanon,Afghanstan & Pakistan, Sudan, Sunnis & Sh'aits, etc.. Who can trust blood thirsty ? May be only Walid & ML.

The moment Muslims start arguing "look it up in a dictionary" they have a weak argument and are using "TAQIYYA"(HOLY lying for the sake of Islam) Go look that one up in the dictionary.

It is very important to understand that Walid is a Hizbulla sympathizer if not a full fledged member. It is also important to realize that he serves his masters in a benign way. He still calls us water thieves, brutal occupiers and Land thieves but he says it so matter of factly without the sound bites of the other Arab Homicidal apologists. He will also tell you that he loves Jews and Israelis and just hates Zionists. All this should tell you something about Walid. In Muslim society it is a shame to be the father of girls and is grounds for divorce. Perhaps Walid Abul Banot feels that shame and must prove that he is more extreme than the extremists in order to be accepted. In the end he is still an extremist Arab Apologist that cannot tell me anything that would change my mind about Arabs in General and Walid in particular. Another Drek with the same genocidal message on a different day. Danite you have him on the ropes , keep him and his lies there.

The word "intifada"by itself is probably not offensive,but coupled with NYC.."intifada NYC"..thats another story.It implies an intifada in NYC.In any case,it's an attempt to provoke.

With or without the T-Shirts, there will be intifada in the streets of the USA.

Martin Luther King would DESPISE the word INTIFADA and EVERYTHING it represents, and EVERYTHING that is done in the name of the Intifada. INTIFADA is the shamefull "cover word" for justifying the INTENTIONAL murder of Israeli civillians.

because of my comments? how interesting...and revealing. actually i'm christian, not an evangelist, but a christian. that the terrorists commited their act in the name of Allah in no way makes it God's will...and that they claimed to do it for all muslims in no way makes it the will of all muslims. i hope that you'll agree that the incarceration and oppression of japanese americans after pearl harbor is a black stain in american history and is widely professed as such by most; and yet it seems that you find justification for repeating that sort of thing against muslims because of 9/11? its been my experience that immigrants to this country tend to be more fiercely proud and protective of this country than those who were born here. something that is generally lost to those who cannot see past their hatred and bigotry. there IS no justification for their treatment!

Mark of Lewiston, et al, thank all of you for the most civilized and well mannered conversation I have had to date on the talkbacks. I do believe there is hope for us all in this "civilized" world of promise.

thank you for the clarification and definition of the word intifada. When it refers to NYC, it is definitely out of line.

We are after the Truth; not after private life ? Be above being personal Walid ? The true Walid is under his skin.

We are after the Truth; not after private life ? Be above being personal Walid ? The true Walid is under his skin.

I'm not justifying anything, just pointing out what you left out. I see it as an objective way to remind you that there is an equal amount of guilt for the very issues you bring up. I don't believe any group of people should be using terrorism as a tool to take life or instill fear. It's bad policy all the way around the board. In other words, leave the civilians out of it. Particularly the children. I believe in protests, but not suicide bombings against a civilian population. The reasoning is not logical. At least to me.

the comment of CHGODMK on post # 282 make sense , your view on post # 377 should be revised, For keep in mind that Gaza disengagement brought only desasters same as will any withdrawal , Gaza situation is not good news , and Abbas-Fayyad vs Meshal-Haniyeh rivaleries are not reassuring , this arabs internal situation must be contained , controlled , it is telling about troublesome region instability , it would be imprudent from any party's opinion to garantee Washington conference success , the ball is in the Quartet field , it would be lack of judgement to make any hastened near and/or far reaching move from any party at this political juncture under God warriors era , whom ever party threatens , manipulate , coerce , fabricate a misleading opportunity or to pressure thru a false sense of emergency at this juncture should be restrained if not dismissed, still this is not to say that the relative negotiation business is now calm for it may turns out as deceptive , lets wait and see what may comes up of the conference if it is not delayed ,

Lynn, as I've advised others on this site, you can reason with trained parrots, (i.e. Hannah and C Fool) their pea brains simply can't process anything beyond a few memorized words. Best advice, ignore their rants.

As long as they advance Jihad in the Koran which is our destruction, Islam should be illegal. Who wants to live near people who want you dead or subjugated? They have a right to live in peace, but not to advance aggression, anti semitism, and war with the West. Islam should be illegal. No more Moslem immigrants. Mo more Moslems.;

how about at shirt ben saying "muslims unfair to women" or in your case "I AM A DUMB DHIMMI"

I thought Bradley would end up working for Rupert Murdoch as a "journalist", but now....

Mark Lincoln : Do you call the suicide bombers and those who send them to kill others and themselves 'Idiots' ? May I remind you how you described them on your-187 to Gina "I am repulsed by suicide bombing" Mark Lincoln. What about those who send them to their death and kill others ? Those who gave them and dress them with the Bomb ? Those who take them under their wing ? Those who call them martyrs and decorated their walls with their pictures ? Isn't Hamas ? What about those who called Hamas 'Competents' ? Are they as competent as those who runs Hitlers Ovens ? Aren't those complementing Hamas as Idiots and guilty as the suicide bombers ? Do you know any one who admires Hamas Mr Lincoln ? And and blame Israel & Bush for not talking to Hamas ? Go look at yourself in the mirror and you will recognise him. He is idiot and guilty by association.

It is not because of bias or bigotry that Arabs are “profiled” in airports, it is because of Arab terrorists who target airports and airplanes. In the absence of terrorism, there would be no profiling of Arabs.

INTIFADA was used to define MANY UPRAISINGS, (ISRAEL, IRAQ, BAHRAIN, MAROCO, FRANCE, LEBANON) And as much as you would like to conveying the message of SHAKING OFF The World regards it as an UPRAISING! And it is not the fault of the Jews or the Zionists But the people who used it first Sorry but they are the Palestinians! As for Legal illegal it is beside the point and at the eye of the beholder!

Okay,now let's see if you will put it out!!

Eric Just a bit more information. The true meaning of the Swastika Unfortunately, the history of the swastika has forced many people to revert from using it..but either direction of the swastika was used to signify a good luck symbol and fortune. It derives from Sanskrit meaning ?it is well?. We have had discussions on this subject and some people just conveniently forget its true meaning. Why Hitler adopted it is bewildering. He wouldn?t have accepted the Hindus at all classifying them below the their version of ?Aryanism?. He would have thought them to be ?sub human?and uncivilized. But on reading an article many Hindus did cooperate with Hitler in view of their British oppressors during World War Two. It didn?t get them very far and subsequently they disregarded their allegiance to Hitler. The story has many ramifications that cannot be submitted here?

It is very important to understand that Walid is a Hizbulla sympathizer if not a full fledged member. It is also important to realize that he serves his masters in a benign way. He still calls us water thieves, brutal occupiers and Land thieves but he says it so matter of factly without the sound bites of the other Arab Homicidal apologists. He will also tell you that he loves Jews and Israelis and just hates Zionists. All this should tell you something about Walid. In Muslim society it is a shame to be the father of girls and is grounds for divorce. Perhaps Walid Abul Banot feels that shame and must prove that he is more extreme than the extremists in order to be accepted. In the end he is still an extremist Arab Apologist that cannot tell me anything that would change my mind about Arabs in General and Walid in particular. Another Drek with the same genocidal message on a different day. Danite you have him on the ropes , keep him and his lies there.

You must keep in mind that Walid is a product of a society that believes it's righteous to keep a POW hidden for 30 years and no sign of death or life. Remember the poor guy comes from a society that produces and reveres a Samir Kuntar. Why would you expect him to have a moral compass that operates?

well do you see Jews run around rioting and burning things each time you guys say something demeaning about us??? do we burn flags??? assault diplomats???chant to the death of our host country's???

So what do you call palestinians stabbing Israelis in public Bath rooms and quiet neighbourhoods??like Helena Rapp of Bat Yam???? you guys always play the innocent card when you and I know that your side perpetuates violence,and even dances in the street when Israeli women and children get blown up on buses.

So what do you call palestinians stabbing Israelis in public Bath rooms and quiet neighbourhoods??like Helena Rapp of Bat Yam???? you guys always play the innocent card when you and I know that your side perpetuates violence,and even dances in the street when Israeli women and children get blown up on buses.

So what do you call palestinians stabbing Israelis in public Bath rooms and quiet neighbourhoods??like Helena Rapp of Bat Yam???? you guys always play the innocent card when you and I know that your side perpetuates violence,and even dances in the street when Israeli women and children get blown up on buses.

"The organization selling the shirts, Arab Women Active in Art and Media, shares office space on Brooklyn's Third Avenue with the Saba Association of American Yemenis. Dhabah "Debbie" Almontaser, principal of the Khalil Gibran International Academy - which is scheduled to open in Brooklyn next month - is a board member and spokeswoman for Saba." - NYPost Ms. Almontaser's biggest mistake was that she got involved in the first place. The shirts are not sold by her organization. Apparently, her organization (Saba) rents out office space to the "shirt organization" AWAAM. The shirt people may have had entirely inncocent intentions, but there is some bad connection there too: "AWAAM's co-founders, Rama Kased and Mona Eldahry, are also active in the more militant pro-Palestinian group, al-Awda, whose main U.S. office is in California. That organization, according to the Anti-Defamation League, is an active supporter of the terrorist groups Hezbollah and Hamas." - NYPost To summarize Almontaser's mistakes: 1. She got involved in the first place. Perhaps she has a big mouth, maybe a requirement for a school principal. 2. She was acting as an apologist, trying to minimize the importance of the word Intifada. For this she lost her job. But the school will open, regardless.

Howdy Mark; There is no requirement in the rules of war for a soldier to request a trial and to get a court order to kill an enemy combatant during a period of armed conflict. And that includes command and control elements of the enemy as well regardless if they are personally armed or not. There is nothing illegal about extrajudicial assassinations if the target is an active participant in the enemy's war effort. The U.S. knocked off Admiral Yamamoto without trial and if we could have snuffed Adolf and Benito, then we have done so too without any judicial proceedings in advance. The only legal requirement is to minimize collateral damage in accordance with the "Principle of Proportionality", but that does not prohibit a reasonable amount of civilian casualties in order to gain a military objective or advantage.

INTIFADA was used to define MANY UPRAISINGS, (ISRAEL, IRAQ, BAHRAIN, MAROCO, FRANCE, LEBANON) And as much as you would like to conveying the message of SHAKING OFF The World regards it as an UPRAISING! And it is not the fault of the Jews or the Zionists But the people who used it first Sorry but they are the Palestinians! As for Legal illegal it is beside the point and at the eye of the beholder!

Margie when are you going to "condemn" the Apartheid that took place in South Africa.Your continued refusal to do so can lead to only one conclusion.

Good post, Mark. By the classical definition of 'idiot', there would seem to many of them, of the zionist persuasion, acting out on these threads. Regards, Hannah.

"The thought policemen of New York (like Pipes, Hikind and Vallone) want the general public to have a negative view." Why, if we are trying to resolve the problem of terror through dialogue, why do we need to censor particular words? Intifada certainly has an extremely negative connotation because of its use by extremists. However, as a word by itself, perhaps to realize its genuine meaning could shed light upon the dialogue. BTW, in this sense, I was in an intifada against my authority figures, including my father, in the 1970's.

The first ammendment protects free speeach when the listener has an opportunity not to listen if he or she choses. It DEFINITELY does not apply to speakers to CAPTIVE AUDIENCES that are helpess and must listen. Teachers and professors and other educators are entitled to free speaech rights OUTSIDE the classrooms and institutions where they teach. And this gets worse with your pupils who see in their teachers a role model. How about school t-shirt with the Confederation flag? or with the tagline "Janjaweed rule"? or "MS13 NY" I understand the Haaretz "epater le bourgeois" policy. But this goes overboard. Really.

Thank you for your kind words and for the song, Boaz Sharabi is very good.But they arre so dishonest its not worthwhile dealing with them.Thanks again

it is obvious they are not used to having jews and women answer back to them and expose their hypocrasy.They are used to dominating both and what they cant control they try to threaten, what they cant threaten they try to destroy, thats how they are.Keep up the good work ladies.Regards

Wanting to do something and being able to do something is two different things.The point is once we arrive ata two state solution we will have to care much less what they think of us,we only have to care now because we remain tied at the hip to them.let Palestine break a binding end of the conflict treaty, lets see them do that.Israels postion vis avis them and the whole ME will be improved in the diplomatic, legal political and propoganda arenas to great effect.Therefore if it leads to peace GREAT! if not then it becomes a more effective form of conflict management form more defensible lines.Israel cant lose either way.Regards

Howdy Margie; My "expert" on swastikas is Billy Rojas (I can give you his e-mail address if you're interested). He has done a lot of research on the subject and has thousands of photographs of swastikas taken from around the world. I don't know about the Norse god connection, but the rest of Eric's statements about swastikas are true. In India a clockwise swastika symbolizes good luck and prosperity and a counterclockwise one is less benign but it is not a "hex symbol". There doesn't seem to be a differentiation between right and left-handed swastikas in other cultures. In southeast Asia it is still common to see swastikas on temples and shrines. There are thousands of examples of swastikas in the U.S., but I will only mention one. There is a dam and a bridge between CA and AZ with scores of swastikas preserved in concrete on it. It's really too bad that the Nazi party trashed the symbol for all time.

You have said twice my knowledge of history "stinks" and this is the third time I demand you prove it.It seems however you afraid to take this challenge.its too bad you cant have a normal discussion and must turn everything into a power ego trip, but thats the way it is in your neck of the woods.So limiting isnt it?? Anyway my challenge stands.

Claiming Israel kills terrorists to "scare" ARABS reminds us how little you value Israeli human life.

"Muslims often denounce terror by denouncing the terrorist actions of so-called Israel and the USofA. " Which gives them zero credibility with most Americans, and thus, their vocal aversion to the "intifada" t-shirt.

"against the use of the harmless word of intifada,' Sympathizing with terrorist murder of civilians in not harmless. Further, only a bigot would believe it is only "Jews" who were outraged at the "intifada nyc" t-shirt. NonJews in the United States are repulsed by Palestinian terrorist butchery as well.

We both know that "intifada" is far from a harmless word. It has become politicized by Arabs who like to murder Israeli children eating at a pizzeria or elderly Israelis shopping at a grocery store. Blame your own people for the fate that word has deserved.

and the Muslim Brotherhood has burned the US Flag in the streets of NYC. That also is considered Freedom of Speech. We have had, as you note the KKK and the Brown shirts march. Most of us choose to ignore them. We have found this to be the best policy. They haven't been back since no one showed to challenge them.

Cipora, you speak of that woman as if she is the village harlot. Her role as a potential instigator was not challenged as much as having the incident become a chance for the NYC Jews and their brownnosing followers to rile public opinion against the use of the harmless word of intifada, a name given to an uprising against an illegal and immoral occupation. Now, Jews have an alternate word that they can use for all sauces and all seasons. Brilliant PR.

March in the hate Parade with your t-shirt, Hamas flag, with the rest of the proPalestinian antisemites who also carry Nazi paraphernalia on their persons. It's all legal. Just don't expect US taxpayers to fund your proterrorist expressions.

Thanks Bradley. We, Muslims, have told the truth, starting with yours faithfully. It's your move, now, and AIPAC's, to TELL THE TRUTH about the victimization of whistleblowers who denounced the corruption in the award of reconstruction contracts in the context of the illegal invasion of Iraq. Accpet my gratefulness for your solicitude.

Tosefta, you have been around these forums long enough to know that I do not disapprove of Israel hitting terrorists. You must understand that I totally disapprove of slaughtering civilians to do so. I remember when Israel tended to be quite fastidious when ever possible. That seems to have ended when the Likud came to power. But then there was the Palmach which was not beyond an assassination but drew the line at attacking innocents, and the Irgun which figured the only good Arab was a dead one. "In recent times, we haven?t heard of many innocent casualties." - Tosefta Agreed, and I have commented upon the fact that the IDF was letting the bad guys drive out of town before whacking them. There seems to be a change back towards more reckless actions the last week or so. One problem Israel has in the occupied territories, is shared with the US in Iraq and for many years the British in Belfast. "Destruction is not a good police force." - General Dwight Eisenhower

Intifada against the "yoke"of occupation by the Americans living in their own country?WOW! Hey Ben wake up,by putting out this twisted and illogical perspective you not only are accusing the Americans but the rest of the democratic world at large. Yours sound too stupid for words! I should stop if I were you,or they'll put you into a "lunatic asylum"! One last word.INTIFADA IS EVIL,NASTY AND IT IS COMMITTED BY ISLAMOFASCISTS ONLY.

Lynn, it is true that some Islamist in other countries are doing their fair share of usurping but this is not a justification for Israel to be doing theses things.

"Excuse me, Mark: Should not any person, defined as terrorist or not, be entitled to a trial?" - Hannah In a perfect world, of course. But this is not a perfect world and I doubt many Terrorists are willing to be put on trial. Note that George Bush refuses to allow American terrorists and war criminals to be put on trial. . . I doubt most Palestinian terrorists would be anymore willing to stand trial for their crimes than George Bush is willing to be tried for his. "Is it such that you are accepting extra-juridical zionist assassination?" - Hannah It is a response to extra-juridical Palestinian assassinations. I strongly disapprove of killing civilians. When it wishes to, Israel can and does limit it's actions to the guilty. I have seen no such restraint by Palestinian terrorists.

Akram Zekaria, you recounted what I had said but you did not answer why you were still in the UK. If it was truly a homeland you wanted and not just a land grab based on a 2000-year old fact and some Biblical folklore, what are you still doing in the UK? Why should the Jews be privileged in being repatriated to where they once lived 2000 years ago and not the Amerindians? You talk of being fair; what about a fair and equal treatment for them or will you tell me it is not the same? Somehow, it is never the same when it concerns the Jews. You complain that the world treats you differently; it is because you act differently.

"You are being hysterical about the dangers of Islam. As I have pointed out, if the majority of Muslims are crazed fundamentalists, we would have been all killed off long ago." - hala And the fact is that we have not been killed off. The Intifada T-Shirt appears to be like a Rorschach test. Even when informed of the meaning of the word, some will only apply the very limited knowledge they have to see that T-Shirt in the way that they are pathologically inclined. I've been to NYC. I am always happy to 'shake it off' and go somewhere nicer.

Sources please for your statements in post #107.

PURE ? PROVOCATION in the US Back yard, I say, good for you USA, at least you know a PROVOCATION when you see it! And stop SUBLIMINAL Islamic Jihadis MESSAGES! I wonder when will the UK will understand and the PROVOCATIVE MESSAGES In there yard As the Provocative demonstration (BOOM, BOOM, UK) by Arabs or Islamic Jihadis, I wonder what was the excuse for that Provocative Slogan in that Demonstration! O we didn?t mean TO BOOM UK, BOOM in Arabic means????

did you miss the daily news reports?

Muslims often denounce terror by denouncing the terrorist actions of so-called Israel and the USofA. Your ignorance of Islam is appalling. Why not read and research a bit before making such a fool of yourself on these threads, yet again?

"So tell me, what is the subliminal message in the message INTIFADA NYC? Clear and simple CIVIL UPRISING IN NEW YORK CITY" - Gil The Wikipedia defines the "id" as "The id is responsible for our basic drives such as food, sex and aggressive impulses, and demands immediate satisfaction. It is amoral and egocentric, ruled by the pleasure-pain principle; it is without a sense of time; completely illogical; primarily sexual; infantile in its emotional development;" Your 'subliminal" message reveals the functioning of an IDiot.

Howdy Eric; The benign or neutral original meaning of words such as Jihad, fatwah, intifada, swastika (or its symbol), Crusade, occupation, apartheid, imperialism, etc. have come to acquire negative connotations for many if not most people. Perhaps the meanings of these words became tarnished by extremists, but it's too late to restore the original meanings. English in particular is not a dead language and is constantly evolving and the meanings of words change accordingly. Ms. Debbie Almontasser demonstrated an incredible lack of judgement in trying to peddle t-shirts which say "Intifada NYC" in New York City when the word has become associated with violence, riots, and terrorism. If I tried to peddle t-shirts in Saudia Arabia which said "Crusade Mecca", then I would be equally stupid even though the original meaning of "crusade" is "to take up the cross".

"I am also repulsed by targeted assassinations of Palestinians without formal accusations or trials" - Walid "So whacking men who would whack you without a trial is no different than what they would do. What galls me is when it is done in such an indiscriminate fashion as to cause unnecessary civilian deaths." - Mark L Mark and Walid, Justification of a "targeted assassination" can only be made after an alternative is considered. This is similar to what police can do in comparable situations. If police believes that a man is dangerous and can kill again, they should try to catch him and bring him to trial. But if this is not possible without some major outbreak of violence and the prospect of dead policemen and others, the police uses a sharpshooter if they can. If the IDF observes a terrorist in a car, the question is: Can he be apprehended? In the West Bank, this may be possible. In Gaza, it will take a major incursion and death to many. So hitting the car by a missile sounds like the right thing to do. An additional question is what to do with innocent bystanders. In the past, the IDF was not careful enough. A one ton bomb in a flimsily built neighborhood is a memorable example. Since then, much has changed due to public outcry in Israel and abroad, and the fact that such a practice is also a war crime. In recent times, we haven?t heard of many innocent casualties. We have to remain vigilant, but Walid's complaint seems to be outdated.

Hala, it is no wonder that the problem with the I-word (Intifada) came up in New York City. It is a cosmopolitan place, to say nothing of the large Jewish community there, and people there know about the Intifada. I don't know were the "average" Joe Blow lives, but if it is Nebraska then there probably would not have been an outrage. Likewise, the T-shirt with "We will not be silent" was forbidden on a plane. The travelling public is more aware than Joe Blow. It must depend on where you are. Hala, in these hard times, it is also the duty of Muslims to come out and try to explain Islam to the public, not only to rely on others. It is also the duty of Muslims worldwide to denounce terrorism and the goals of the Islamists. It is a fact that a goal of Islam is to spread all over the world and vanquish the Dar al-Harb. People in the West do not have detailed knowledge of this, but they have the general idea. With respect to Christians, the public may miss the correct option for them (conversion to Islam or becoming a Dhimmi), but for many it is as bad as death. The reason we have not all converted or become subject is that Islam was stopped by Christendom, not that the Muslims didn't try. Muslims have a lot of work to do in bringing their religion up to date, including peaceful coexistence with others. If I were you, I will tell them to work on it, as I tell religious Jews to update Jewish (Talmudic) law to modernity. What you see in the Territories is partly the result of this law, and Jews also need to do the work. P.S. Cipora is forever in the misunderstanding business. Something is wrong with her reading comprehension.

Great post, by gum: keep it up! Regards, Hannah

"If more moderate Arabs would speak out against terrorism perhaps there would be less anti-Arab sentiment but they have not stepped up enough." - Jane Actually they do, at least here in Houston. ". . . Americans as a whole don`t differentiate between the moderates and radicals." - Jane Most don't seem to know much about Islam, or Arabs. With regular terrormongering going on, it is not surprising. What I find encouraging is that there is a much more open attitude than was exhibited towards Japanese Americans 65 years ago. I don't think it is as grim a situation as you do.

I read your post to Akram Zekaria chiding him for greed for living in the UK when we have Israel as our own and then the very next post was one you wrote to me claiming proudly that you are a citizen of both Canada and Lebanon. What a hypocrite you are. Don't you ever think what you're writing before you write it?

Cipora, you speak of "that woman" as if she is the village harlot. Her role as a potential instigator was not challenged as much as having the incident become a chance for the NYC Jews and their brownnosing followers to rile public opinion against the use of the harmless word of "intifada", a name given to an uprising against an illegal and immoral occupation. Now, Jews have an alternate word that they can use for all sauces and all seasons. Brilliant PR.

Israel's 'Proverbial Leader Olmert' is giving away land precious to the Jewish people - 92% of JudeaSamaria, the Arab neighbourhood of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, and land in the Negev, also it appears that Olmert is willing to accept Israeli responsibility for the fate of the Arabs who left Israel in 1948 and for their descendants - all this for Peace Olmert believes. Are the Arabs going to accept Peace after all this is given to them? or are they going to 'wipe Israel off the map completely' now that there will be so little left of it that it would not take much to do so. Olmert for his part seems to be the biggest fool that ever existed.

Much the same can be said of the Islamists. Usurping the rights of people in other countries.

Again, I did not divide the world into US and THEM. Jihadists have done that quite well enough for everyone. Cheers.

I know about the Friday protests at the fence. I have absolutely nothing against people protesting. If you don't believe Almontaser did not realize the reaction she would receive, then you also are a victim of propaganda.

Sorry Dawish.... no-one needs to spread 'poison' about Islam. Islam does it most credibly to herself.

It's true, Indifadah means "shaking off", and has been used in other struggles than the Palestinian liberation movement. In Iraq following the first Gulf War, Iraqi soldiers returning from Kuwait, disillusioned with Saddam, fired rounds against a portrait of Saddam in Basra then proceeded to distribute arms to the people. Within days the rebellion had spread across the south of Iraq, with several Ba3ath buildings overrun by Iraqi citizens. This intifadah would have been successful in ending Bath rule of Iraq if only the Americans had followed through when they promised to support it. Instead Saddam Hussein killed thousands in the south and crushed the rebellion. This incident is known as the Iraqi Intifadah.

Well some of you on the forum say INTIFADA = (means) = SHAKING OFF Shaking off, is it? In 1987 first Intifada Israel (Riots, Stoning, Molotov Cocktails, Grenades, Suicide Attacks) In 1991 Intifada Iraq (Uprising, Machine guns, Rocket-propelled Grenades, tanks) In 1994 Intifada Bahrain (Riots, Stoning, and Boom attacks) In 2000 the second Intifada Israel (Suicide Attacks, Rockets, and Boom attacks) In 2005 Intifada France (Riots, Stoning, Molotov Cocktails, Car Burning) So tell me, what is the subliminal message in the message INTIFADA NYC? Clear and simple CIVIL UPRISING IN NEW YORK CITY

Sources?

I did a quick search on amazon.co.uk regarding books with the word "Intifada" in the title. There are many of them and what is striking, is that almost without exception, including in the books written by Israelis like Zeev Schiff, the word "Intifada" is given a positive meaning in the sense that it seen as shaking off the yoke of occupation or an uprising against injustice. This is the meaning that most of the world has come to accept, when we talk about "Intifada". The thought policemen of New York (like Pipes, Hikind and Vallone) want the general public to have a negative view. They want people to believe that Intifada is only about terrorism and violence and they do their best to prevent the public from discovering its actual meaning. I better bring my Intifada T-shirt along, next time I visit New York. To anyone, who will take exception, I can then explain the original meaning of "Intifada", which is the throwing off of the yoke of Israeli occupation and oppression.

Akram Zekaria, you recounted what I had said but you did not answer why you were still in the UK. If it was truly a homeland you wanted and not just a land grab based on a 2000-year old fact and some Biblical folklore, what are you still doing in the UK? Why should the Jews be privileged in being repatriated to where they once lived 2000 years ago and not the Amerindians? You talk of being fair; wouldn't it be a fair and equal treatment for them or will you tell me "it's not the same"? Somehow, it's never the same when it concerns the Jews. You complain that the world treats you differently; it's because you act differently.

"I am also repulsed by targeted assassinations of Palestinians without formal accusations or trials" - Walid "So whacking men who would whack you without a trial is no different than what they would do. What galls me is when it is done in such an indiscriminate fashion as to cause unnecessary civilian deaths." - Mark L Mark and Walid, Justification of a "targeted assassination" can only be made after an alternative is considered. This is similar to what police can do in comparable situations. If police believes that a man is dangerous and can kill again, they should try to catch him and bring him to trial. But if this is not possible without some major outbreak of violence and the prospect of dead policemen and others, the police uses a sharpshooter if they can. If the IDF observes a terrorist in a car, the question is: Can he be apprehended? In the West Bank, this may be possible. In Gaza, it will take a major incursion and death to many. So hitting the car by a missile sounds like the right thing to do. An additional question is what to do with innocent bystanders. In the past, the IDF was not careful enough. A one ton bomb in a flimsily built neighborhood is a memorable example. Since then, much has changed due to public outcry in Israel and abroad, and the fact that such a practice is also a war crime. In recent times, we haven?t heard of many innocent casualties. We have to remain vigilant, but Walid's complaint seems to be outdated.

Eric You tried and did your best to put out and explain the meaning of "Swastika" I'll jus put my bit for what is worth. So, here goes,although a bit convoluted and requires much studying. The true meaning of the Swastika Unfortunately, the history of the swastika has forced many people to revert from using it..but either direction of the swastika was used to signify a good luck symbol and fortune. It derives from Sanskrit meaning ?it is well?. We have had discussions on this subject and some people just conveniently forget its true meaning. Why Hitler adopted it is bewildering. He wouldn?t have accepted the Hindus at all classifying them below the their version of ?Aryanism?. He would have thought them to be ?sub human?and uncivilized. But on reading an article many Hindus did cooperate with Hitler in view of their British oppressors during World War Two. It didn?t get them very far and subsequently they disregarded their allegiance to Hitler. The story has many ramifications that cannot be submitted here?

Provocative teeshirt? What was provocative about it exactly? Maybe anyone with Arab blood should travel separately, live in ghettos etc..... Remind you of anything?

"What do you propose?" Exactly what has happened in the case of the second -- root out those who support or sympathize with the Palestinian intifada, or any other form of terrorism. Especially where US tax payer funds are to be distributed.

Hello, firstly it comes as no suprise,Arabs are arabs first and the truth be dammed.I have known that.I thopught maybe with those who have been raised in the US and canada some light might have gotten through, but they are as they are.What is important here is wanting to do something and being able to are two different things.Some will happily accept the two state solution simply because they want to move on already.I believe the average arab if left unincited really will live and let leave.he will always hate us, but thats it.Some will always seek to make trouble.However I view the two state solution in the worst case as a form of more effective conflict management.If it leads to peace then great, if not then israels political diplomatic propoganda and legal postion to respond to any challenges are greatly increased.Israel can also become an associate member of the EU and so can put some strategic distance between it and the ME.Regards

Claiming Israel kills terrorists to "scare" ARABS reminds us how little you value Israeli human life.

I apologize for maybe sounding a bit to harsh on you here #280, but I know that there are amongst the Arabs who are reasonable, compassionate and those who seek equality. Otherwise, we're in real trouble.

you keep telling yourself that america will not survive another war with anyone,matter of fact,teach you children that,just like you teach them to hate jews,every single day.when you coward arab come out from under your womens dresses and fight like real men,we will show you what war is about.but,NO,you and your muslim brothers are such cowards,you fel the need to hide behind children and women and old men,just so you can cry and whine when you get one of them killed.thats really brave arab,but,if i were in your shoes,and had no real threat of war either,id come to these forums and talk big and spout off lies,just like you,trying to get someone,anyone to believe the lies i was spewing.the first lie you need to come to grips with is,THERE IS NO PALESTINE,and there never will be one,your either jordanian or egyptian,which is it?second thing you need to come to grips with,america will be here when were all dead and gone and your children are dead and gone,so,just get over your hate.

Hala, it is no wonder that the problem with the I-word (Intifada) came up in New York City. It is a cosmopolitan place, to say nothing of the large Jewish community there, and people there know about the Intifada. I don't know were the "average" Joe Blow lives, but if it is Nebraska then there probably would not have been an outrage. Likewise, the T-shirt with "We will not be silent" was forbidden on a plane. The travelling public is more aware than Joe Blow. It must depend on where you are. Hala, in these hard times, it is also the duty of Muslims to come out and try to explain Islam to the public, not only to rely on others. It is also the duty of Muslims worldwide to denounce terrorism and the goals of the Islamists. It is a fact that a goal of Islam is to spread all over the world and vanquish the Dar al-Harb. People in the West do not have detailed knowledge of this, but they have the general idea. With respect to Christians, the public may miss the correct option for them (conversion to Islam or becoming a Dhimmi), but for many it is as bad as death. The reason we have not all converted or become subject is that Islam was stopped by Christendom, not that the Muslims didn't try. Muslims have a lot of work to do in bringing their religion up to date, including peaceful coexistence with others. If I were you, I will tell them to work on it, as I tell religious Jews to update Jewish (Talmudic) law to modernity. What you see in the Territories is partly the result of this law, and Jews also need to do the work. P.S. Cipora is forever in the misunderstanding business. Something is wrong with her reading comprehension.

Nobody is preventing the Arabs from telling the truth. Unfortunately, particularly as regards air travel, they bear the brunt for heinous crimes committed in their names, even if unknowingly, and hence are advised to tread judiciously. That does not not imply avoidance of any truth. It is not an excessive expectation vis-a-vis the nature of the crimes.

Eric I am sure you were trying your best to explain the meaning(in a round about way).But I we had discussions on this subject. The whole story is somewhat long and rather convoluted,but still bears reminding people what had happened during World War Two and beyond. So,here goes for anyone who needs clarification be it as briefly put as I can. The true meaning of the Swastika Unfortunately, the history of the swastika has forced many people to revert from using it..but either direction of the swastika was used to signify a good luck symbol and fortune. It derives from Sanskrit meaning ?it is well?. We have had discussions on this subject and some people just conveniently forget its true meaning. Why Hitler adopted it is bewildering. He wouldn?t have accepted the Hindus at all classifying them below the their version of ?Aryanism?. He would have thought them to be ?sub human?and uncivilized. But on reading an article many Hindus did cooperate with Hitler in view of their British oppressors during World War Two. It didn?t get them very far and subsequently they disregarded their allegiance to Hitler. The story has many ramifications that cannot be submitted here?

PURE PROVOCATION & MANIPULATION Good for the USA at least they are stopping the PROVOCATION Posed by Arabs and SUBLIMINAL Islamic Jihadis MESSAGES! I wonder when will the UK understand and stop the PROVOCATION In there yard As was seen in the Provocative BOOM, BOOM, UK demonstration by Arabs or Islamic Jihadis, I wonder what was the excuse for that Provocative Slogan in that sort of Demonstration!

PURE PROVOCATION & MANIPULATION Good for the USA at least they are stopping the PROVOCATION Posed by Arabs and SUBLIMINAL Islamic Jihadis MESSAGES! I wonder when will the UK understand and stop the PROVOCATION In there yard As was seen in the Provocative BOOM, BOOM, UK demonstration by Arabs or Islamic Jihadis, I wonder what was the excuse for that Provocative Slogan in that sort of Demonstration!

What a miss-representation of one's own self !! "I am repulsed by sucide bombing" Mr Mark Lincoln. Who is sending the 'Sucide Bombers ? Who is giving their their Suicide Bombs ? Who is paying them and their families for them to kill & die ? Who is calling them Martyrs ? Who is decorating the Walls of Gaza with their pictures ? Who is having them in their criminal oganisation ? Insn't Hamas,the organisation you always called 'competent' etc.. Mr Mark Lincoln ?? Now you claim that you are 'repulsed' by them ? You are a Comedian Mr Lincoln. And guilty by association !

get the hell out.i don't wanna see any of your lame excuses.you and khalid are just alike,leaches on the american people.you will leave when you extract what you want from our society,meanwhile,stab us in the back some more you fool!

It isn't easy to get a fix on morality when you come from a country that continues to keep secret the whereabouts or condition of a POW for 30 years. Remember, this man comes from a country that finds it normal to kidnap people and keep them "diappeared" for sport. The man comes from a country where rule of law means rule of the gun. Can we blame him for his lack of moral compass?

you live in a country until you suck what you need out of it,then you whine and complain about it!in your case your still living here and have absolutly no loyality to america.which ever country your heart is loyal to,you need to go there.like i said,if you don't like america,get the hell out,we don't need thieves like you and khalid here.

These jerks are just going to have the pay the price, collectively and individually, for all the havoc abd chaos their co-nationalists and co-religionists have caused in the world today. Sorry for the inconvenience guys but get your people under control. Imagine how peaceful the world would be without Arabs and Islam!!!!

Walid-314.Did you read my post-307 ?Not so sure? -"It took your Biblicall-based logic and accept it" Walid. No,I am saying 'Historical Truth' see my post-307. Like the Irish,the Kurds, or any other nation in History that has its roots in its Historic Land. -"What are people like you still doing in the UK" Walid-314. Didn't I told you on #307 ? "Others can stay in this land in accordance with the rules of the State". -"Would it be to Queen & Country or simply to Israel and screw the UK" Walid-314. Rules are rules. If I break them I have the right to do so and the State has the right to punish me like any other UK citizen.Isn't that obvious ? Is that ignorance or pretending ignorance ? "Akram,when desire turn to greed,it degenrates into vulgar lust and this is where you're at this point of time" Walid-314. Childish words. There is no 'greed' 'vulgar' or 'lust' etc.. when one ask for his historic rights.Besides, didn't we Jews gave Jordan for those who needed land ?

Then cry discrimination and wonder why people get even more angry.

There are many which have a clear view of things, which I must lack. The position is that killing any number of Arabs at any time is perfectly justified because one of them might have been a terrorist and what the heck, all Arabs are terrorists even the children so it is perfectly all right to kill them. These same folks consider it wrong for an Arab to hold the same opinion and act in the same way. Poor confused and muddled Mark Lincoln suffers from the delusion that killing innocent people is wrong and that those who kill innocent people to scare others are terrorists. I will not change my opinion. Killing innocent people to scare others is terrorism. Killing innocent Arabs is just as evil as killing innocent Israelis.

Please, do not be taken in by the "superior knowledge" of those who preach falsehoods. Regarding that woman in NY: it is clear from the Haaretz articles that the problem was that she was the intended principal of an Arab language and culture school. It was in this role that she was being challenged. I suspect that if private individuals wore the t-shirts in NYC, or anywhere else, they would not be prevented from doing so, unless by so doing, they caused a riot. It is well known that Nazi parades are allowed in the US, as are other very controversial forms of speech. In the UK, the jihadists openly preach jihad, sharia, the virtues of beheadings, etc..., and recruit with their speeches. It is a huge problem there. Shabbat Shalom, Cipora

about swastikas but please give us a good strong source for your claim. It's really not enough to make an unsupported declaration. I've known about right and left handed swastikas long before the invention of the internet, read about them in comp. relig. classes at university. You say, god forbid anyone springs to the defense of Ms. Almontesar and yet you have done so and so have many others - what's the bar to expressing opinions? I even gave her the benefit of the doubt in my previous message to you. America is a democracy and the will of the majority prevails or so I understood. The majority found it distasteful and so it went.

My post had two points, and the second had nothing to do with the first. I seriously doubt that I am being hysterical about the dangers of radical Islam. You have not addressed the points I made. Those are points I stand by: namely, Hamas wants to liberate all of "Palestine" with jihad, Bin Laden has declared jihad on Jews and crusaders, and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has declared that it plans to restore Sharia, with beheadings and cutting off of hands, people are being slaughtered by various Islamists in Iraq, and Iran is preaching hatred of the US and of Israel.

The deep unprecedented trauma of 9/11 is going to resonate throughout our lifetime, and it will take another generation or two until provocative teeshirt graffiti, even of innocents, is allowed to pass uncensored on passengers boarding airplanes, most especially in the USA.

nope. the direction of the swastika throughout history was interchangable...and the meaning of the symbol didn't change with direction... the suggestion that the nazis reversed its direction for their purpose is false, and stems from futile attempts to restore its true meaning since the nazi era. if anything...he tilted it; but there are even ancient examples of that. and... if you saw a swastika...no matter what direction it faced or whether it lay flat or on a tilt; your reaction...and your assumption...would be the same... just as your assumption about ms almontesar would be the same...no matter how her attempt was executed... bottom line is that once the stereotyping began, and the lady was placed under a stigma, and there was no stopping the bigotry that condemned her. it's known as "jumping on the bandwagon"...god forbid that anyone speak out in her defense once that stigma is in place...even if they believe her...lest the stigma be placed upon them! it's the sort of thing that holocausts are made of; one little step leads to the next...

Freedom without RESPONSIBILITY is anarchy. IF the Am-Moslems have been treated poorly since the 9/11, it is the CONSEQUENCE of the atrocities, which left absolutely no-one in the Western world untouched. ERIC, actions always carry consequences; we should think about them before we act. The terrorists in those planes should have thought, how their actions will affect the interpersonal relationship betw.the Am-Moslems and other Ams in America AFTER the atrocities, had they been RESPONSIBLE persons. A RESPONSIBLE person does not cause pain to others. I think that these terrorists probably thought that they would succeed in bringing America down on her knees. These attacks were against EVERYTHING America stands for. How do you expect non-Moslem Ams FEEL? These atrocities were committed in the name of Allah, in whom EVERY Moslem believes in. Hence they were commited in the name of ALL the Moslems. You made yourselves America's enemy all by yourselves.

The USA is still smarting (to put it mildly) from the enormity of the heinous 9/11 trauma. Israelis too are traumatized every time even bits of that heinous scenario appear on TV screens. Except during wartime mayhem, or extreme natural disaster, when one is braced for the worst, 9/11 was an entirely unprecedented phenomenon, unprecedented also in the shock and fear that it evinced. It will take a generation or two at least, until eloquent but innocent cases such as described in your article can pass without comment or interrogation, most especially at an airport.

It is obvious that it was the Nazis who put the stigma on the swastika. Indeed, the vast majority of people in the world do not know that the swastika has any other meaning than the symbol of evil. Anyone who has ever seen a documentary of Nazi processions under banners of the Nazi flag of the swastika understands that and the association will remain with people throughout history. Indeed, the theatrical, histrionic processions were meant to stay with people, and so was the Nazi salute. To this day, the symbols are used by neo-Nazis and arayan groups for this very reason. Your attempts at pseudo-intellectualizing will not wash, sorry to say.

"An ancient Indian symbol of good luck, the swastika was also the traditional symbol of Thor, the Norse god of thunder, and was favoured by German neo-pagan movement of the early 20th century, who called it the Hakenkreutz. In similar fashion, the Hakenkreutz was adopted by the Thule Society, (Himmler was a member) whose members, like the neo-pagans, had a strong anti-Christian streak." etc,etc. eric, my friendly advice, keep your logic for more worthwhile subjects and don't try to defend the Hakenkreutz. Nor Jihad! It's too slippery. Way too many people died, and continue to die, by those who adore those symbolisms.

The problem Eric is that these BY VIOLENCE TARNISHED symbols and words, which have inflicted unbearable amount of pain and suffering onto people, have changed their meaning and cannot but be associated with the bloodshed, destruction and human suffering. These symbols and words are TRAUMAS, through which people re-live the EVIL. We cannot help of how we feel, Eric. Asking for overlooking the evil and accepting the symbols and words of evil as "good", which they, as you point out, may originally have been, is both cruel and sick. We are not living in a reverse world. We are living in the kind of reality that has been created through these symbols and words. They have lost their original meanings, which the evil they were used for, have forever destroyed just like they destroyed human lives.

Reread my post, s'il vous plait. I am not at all self-righteous or indignant with Tosfeta. I am elaborating on the post, which I hope is permitted without my being accused of something which I did not do by you or anyone else who attacks knee-jerkedly anyone who proposes a look at the other side. You are being hysterical about the dangers of Islam. As I have pointed out, if the majority of Muslims are crazed fundamentalists, we would have been all killed off long ago. What do you propose?

very,very impressive mr Bradley.I hope that You'll keep this level for ever

Walla! you have a career in slogan writing for the Australian League of Rights.

First, in defense of Tosefta, he is perhaps your best friend among the Jewish posters. Second, this is not simply a linguistic exercise. Hamas in its charter claims all of "Palestine," and declares that it will be liberated through jihad. Bin Laden had declared jihad against the Jews and the Crusaders. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt openly says that Sharia will eventually be restored in Egypt, including the cutting off of hands and beheadings. We can all see what is happening in Iraq, and what is being preached in Iran. We all know what happened to Theo Van Gogh. We refuse to be brain washed.

what exactly is it? i really doubt that those who wrote the amendments to the u.s. constitution wrote in parables. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=144 there are no "ifs, ands, or buts"... because the writers knew that without unlimited freedom of speech, there will eventually be none. if a government has the ability to outlaw ANY such freedoms, it can outlaw ALL such freedoms. these men had just fought for an won their independence from such a government...and they wanted to make sure theirs DIDN'T become the same. neither of the t-shirts mentioned are negative or insensitive... it's only YOUR perception of them that make them so... "we will not be silent"? considering the oppression they're forced to live under; i wouldn't be either...nor would you. "intifada nyc"? not 'intifada in nyc'...or against nyc...just "intifada nyc". dam! it could mean anything...considering the word's real meaning though...i'll venture it means "hey nyc, loosen up already! we were here WITH you; not against you!" ignorance is sick, alicia. think about the shit THEY have to put up with since 9/11... i remember a couple days afterwards...there was a zoroastrian shot an killed in arizona. they wear turbans. ignorance sucks!

Since you mentioned my name first I will take the liberty of replying for the others too. It was the right handed swastika which was and still is the vedic symbol of good luck. The Nazis turned it the wrong way around - left handed - and deliberately invoked the evil that they perpetrated. Symbols need to be used correctly or they become perverted. As I wrote to Tess, it is possible that Ms Almontesar intended to restore the original meaning to the word intifada but her execution was poor and the attempt failed.

Much of it has to do with self-confidence. I am a very self-confident person, and that applies to how I see myself as a person who believes in democratic values, as well as how I see myself as a Jew. I refuse to be hectored into feelings of guilt, or false sympathies by those who have much less human experience than I do. Notice that you are the first to even comment on the posts. Shabbat Shalom, Cipora

Dana. The latest version of your video game sounds very absorbing for you since real human concerns pass you by. You see us all as automatons: you attempt, unsuccessfully, to reduce us to soulless beings who cannot deviate from our programming. You will have to revise your concept since it is not integrated - programming at the level you posit is an act demanding unconscious acceptance - deviation is a conscious act and firing is a penalty only imposed on those who have the capacity for voluntary action. Now that you have begun, though faultily to describe your betes noires you will have to automate your heroes. That should be easy enough since they come preprogrammed with concepts such as 'Zionist', 'nakba' 'pappe' 'brutal occupation' 'Gaza is green' etc which clearly distinguish between the levels. Interestingly, levels here deal with kinds of arabism and anti-semitism (a drab concept) each coming from a different direction but converging on Israel. Idiot sheets are available.

Margie in Tel Aviv, I have the honor of being a citizen of the countries you mentioned and I have no problems at all with Haaretz and its writers. It is you that is always placating them for their humanistic articles but perhaps this is due to your South African antecedents.

Akram Zekaria, if I took your Biblically-based logic and accepted it, now that you Jews have your homeland, what are people like you still doing in the UK? Is that not having your cake and eating it too, to use your own words? Or do you want to consider Israel your home away from home "just in case"? The whole world with exception to the US considers you as occupiers and usurpers of other people's rights. I often wonder about your allegiance. Would it be to Queen and Country or simply to Israel and screw the UK? Akram, when desire turns to greed, it degenerates into vulgar lust and this is where you're at this point of time.

"but its not OK for those under occupation to resist" It's not ok to deliberately murder innocent civilians, despite what your Islamic religious clerics teach you. "In that case, no occupation and there would be no terrorists!" Which is why British Muslims feel justified to mass murder British citizens.

דברים קטנים דברים פשוטים וקצת הפתעות באמצע הדרך זמנים חולפים ומשתנים אתמול אתה היית מלך לאן ברחו הציפיות ואיך נשראת בלי תשובה עוד לא הספקת לעשות ומה נשאר מכל האהבה הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר קשה לראות אך לפעמים גלגל נסגר באמצע הסיפור ואין כבר כח לגופך יותר למשוך יכולת לוותר אבל לך אסור הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר המסקנה חבר אסוף את כל הכח קל יותר לדבר כשהפחד משתחרר למרות הכל אתה מבין שזאת הדרך היה חזק חבר היה חזק הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר הכל תלוי בך חבר היה חזק אל תישבר אל תיתן לעצבות בך לפגוע היה חזק ותתגבר בועז שרעבי www.mp3music.co.il מילים לשירים עבריים רשימת אמנים ולהקות

Dvarim k'tanim, dvarim p'shutim, uktzat hafta'ot be'emtza haderech, zmanim cholfim umishtanim etmol ata hayita melech. Le'an parchu hatzipiot ve'eich nish'arta b'li tshuva? od lo hispakta la'asot uma nish'ar mikol ha'ahava? Hakol talu'i becha chaver, heye chazak - al tishaver, al titen la'atzvut becha lifgoa, heye chazak vetitgaber. Kasheh lir'ot ach lif'amim, galgal nisgar be'emtza hasipur, ve'ein kvar ko'ach legufcha yoter limshoch, lahem mutar levater, lecha asur yacholta levater, aval lecha asur Hakol talu'i .... Hamaskana chaver esof et kol hako'ach, kal yoter ledaber kshehapachad mish'tachrer lamrot hakol ata meivin shezo haderech h'yeh chazak chaver, h'yeh chazak umitgaber. Hakol talu'i .... Boaz Sharabi www.hebrewsongs.com

Little things, simple things And a few surprises in the middle of your path Times pass and change, Yesterday you were king. Where did the expectations go And how is it, you're left without an answer ? You haven't done all you wanted And what remains, of all the love. Every thing depends on you, friend, Be strong, don't break, Don't let sadness hurt you, Be strong and you'll overcome. It is hard to see - but sometimes the circle is closed in the middle of the story. And your body has no more strength to pull, they can give up, but you can't you could have given up, but you mustn't Every thing is up to you........ The conclusion friend: gather all your strength, It is easier to talk when you get over your fear. in spite of all, you understand that this is the way, be strong friend - be strong. and you'll overcome. Every thing is up to you........ Boaz Sharabi www.hebrewsongs.com

Pease print 1)Walid The simple truth. No 2) Walid The simple truth already printed on No.298. Thanks

did you know that the symbol defamed by hitler and the nazis had for thousands of years been one of good luck and prosperity? not just in one region, but in almost every corner of the world. it's sad that he chose that particular rune, and that the nazis defamed several others as well; but none as universally as the so-called "swastika". but now let me ask you; who actually placed the negative stigma upon that symbol? and who keeps that negative stigma alive? was it the nazis? or was it stigmatized by the allies who fought to subdue the nazi blight? hitler and his cohorts may have stained it for a couple decades, but it was the allies that defiled and stigmatized it for the rest of eternity. many people still know the symbol for its TRUE meaning, yet dare not display it for fear of the stereotype it carries. how sad. because if indeed it had been embraced again for its true meaning by world society once those who tarnished it were defeated; it would carry no sinister stigma, and those pathetic racists who use it so freely today...would NOT! now you suggest the same be done for a word which in itself bears no negative connotation except for the one placed on it by those who associate it with terrorism. and even worse; you feel justified in labeling anyone who uses the word for its true meaning? the lady is in america; what makes you think her use of the word ISN'T exactly what she said she meant it to be? stigmatizing, stereotyping, racism, bigotry, prejudice; they're all the same thing.

Walid. Thank you for your polite post. I am a Jew was born in Iraq. And I can't be called other than an Arab. So, talking about Anti-Arab would including those like me by defenition. Mark Lincoln and yourself are not logical or even intellinent by useing the word Ant-Arabism. But as I said on my post Hate is always blind & stupid. As for your sentiments for Peace, it is historically wrong.Because Historically this land doesn't belong to any nation except the Jews. And the real occupiers are those who claim this land their own who are not Jewish. As the land belong to the Jews it is their right to rule this land the way they find it acceptable to them. Others can stay in this land in accordance with the rules of the State. This is the Historic Truth. Those who ignore History wether they call for Peace or not they are on the wrong side of History and will never win at the end. (see my other post that I have just sent). History is interested only in Historic Truth.

Joke- or what? Percentages mean nothing - especially when what is offered is not like for like. Taking away a huge chunk covered by Maale Adumin or Ariel in exchange for a strip of arab towns over the green line - in other words cutting off the West Bank from Jerusalem even more. Did he offer to share Jerusalem - allow freedom of worship to all Moslems and Christians - or allow refugees to return. Come to think of it - what exactly did he offer? And he's back on the scene - older, fatter and certainly less wise, there is no hope for change.

I wouldn't want to be an Arab in America these days. Your children carry the weight of what the radical Islamists have brought down on their people. You can either complain about it, do something about it or leave. If more moderate Arabs would speak out against terrorism perhaps there would be less anti-Arab sentiment but they have not stepped up enough.As it is this war against the radicals will go on for a very long time and Americans as a whole don't differentiate between the moderates and radicals. They just see Arabs as one big danger. Right or wrong this is the truth your children will have to live with for the forseeable future. I wouldn't want my children to go through that.

'Your husband owns you and your children - Christian or not...!" Get real - and stop listening to Zionist popaganda! For that matter read up a little about the role of the women in Orthodox Jewish society....

Let's see. Its OK for one nation to dominate another with a military occupation lasting decades (so far) but its not OK for those under occupation to resist? In that case they are all to be labelled as terrorists? In that case, no occupation and there would be no terrorists!