Israeli-American Nobel winner doubts Israel's long-term survival

Aumann is right in saying many people do not realise why they are here or rather why their"being" here is so important.However instead of preaching doom why not together with our Nobel prize winners set up a think tank to seek solutions to our existential problems within and without our borders?.Include our top spin doctors, writers,hi tech and other successful"brains" and the "futurists" to get a new dimension on whether we can save our precious homeland Zelda Harris

oh my god to all of you degrading this man, is this the new israelites i see before me, ones who stood together for so long now attacking their government and anyone who talks of peace, this man,as an israeli is sending a message i have said along time ago, and that is keep going on this destructive path and israel will be no more, god will not protect you,this man whos son died has had enough, enough of government lies, and the 3000 small change ?he would be comparing that to ww2, i am an arab and i am disgusted by the behaivior of most of you, shame on you all against real peace and attacking a logical man. you have to be special to get a nobel, have any of you got one ?.

'to negotiate a peace treaty, or at least some agreements that would lead to it' Apart from your pleasantly hyperbolic and ironic words, a peace treaty has already been negotiated, at Geneva, Taba (2001) and, the conditions of a general peace set forth unanimously by the Arab League (2002, 2004). These conditions meet the obligation that Israel abide by International Law on territorial disputes. It is quite simple, really. All that is lacking is the will to separate Israel's right to a nation from religious land right theory. I note two articles yesterday in which Bedouins with title are to have their lands expropriated for Russian settlers or a military base, and that the Yesha's continued settlement abuses (90 new bases) are to be partially legalized in teh West Bank. While the politics of territorial greed prevail, no compromise with the Arab world is possible, and Israel only earns the contempt of the world, and of historians.

Actually, it is too bad that you have no friends on the other side. You might be able to negotiate a peace treaty, or at least some agreements that would lead to it. You are trying to be naughty, mispelling my name on a number of occasions, but as long as I still recognize it as my name, it matters not. For some unknown, unfathomable reason, my post to your #368 was not put out.

Waht this means is that he supports the occupation and he is among those who are contributing the fact that there will never be peace.

Israel will prevail just as malaria influenza cancer continue to prevail.Sooner or later these will be dispensed with some sooner than others. Like cancer is a curse for mankind Israel may continue to inflict itself on the ME and world but an antidote will emerge for cancer and just as surely for Israel. Let us unite in prayers that the antidote for Israel will be peaceful and just and not as unjust and as violent as Israel has been all these 58 years.

Israel shall prevail. She has followed a long path till here. If not, how can you explain the millions of Jews, and non-Jews who have settled here since 1948?, how can you explain the peace treaty Israel has signed with Egypt and Jordan?, how can you explain that in the Lebanon war neither Cairo nor Amman, not to mention Damascus waged war against us? I'm sorry that you've lost your son, but don't throw the resentment against Israel.

fairminded Professor Auman's is a cautionary reminder to the People and the State of Israel as to what may come to pass(heaven forfend),if the country does not avoid its pitfalls,and continues the abrogation of our faith,and conduct toward our "nemesis" the (enemies of the state). When he said a mere 3000 IDF soldiers died during the "Yom Kippur War",he wasn't just dismissing it with a swipe of his hand,it was a WARNING,of what we must avoid in future. He has the wisdom,and knowledge to undestand,he also has deep feelings in his God and Judaism.Your post is well received,thanks. p/s My response to Cipora has not been put out yet.Hopefully it will soon...

I think you'd do best to browse through sites which offer detailed technical discussion of the war. Headlines during war are no guide to what is actually going on. Nasrallah was surprised that Israel, instead of negotiating, bombarded the whole of Lebanon to smithereens. His expression of 'surprise' may or may not be true. The function of a public declaration of this kind is to send a message to the Lebanese who suffered in consequence of his decisions, namely 'don't blame me. I calculated on Israelis being intelligent and moderate. They didn't play according to my expectations'. Personally, it's mere guesswork, but I don't believe he was surprised: he took a calculated risk, and Israel behaved, predictably, as it always does: extreme overreaction to create 'mind-searing' pain. His men bore the brunt, battled with great distinction, and in turn surprised, even shocked, the IDF, which promised results in 3 days, and was stuck on the border for a month

Cipora The numbers of Hizbullah's deaths were in the region of 500,and more acurately as you say 700 at least.If some like Peter try to minimize the numbers, and judges by the funerals,then he is living in cloud-cuckoo-land. He aught to know by now that Arabs never admit to losing wars,even when they do,let alone advertize on camera. What's more there were Iranian revolutionary guards among the dead. We have an example of Sadam Hussein as they were signing the "surrender document" after the "Desert Storm" war,with world journalist witnessing it,they still announced they had won the war. It was the same with the Egyptians(not the Yom Kippur war by the way)the previous ones when Israel was fighting on all fronts and it included Egypt of course. The "Yom Kippur" War,was a great error by the Gov' at the time,and no need for repetition. But we beat the hell out of the lot of them too! The sacrifice was great,a tragedy,indeed! Won the day,thanks to Sharon...

Peter Who was it that announced his surprise of Israel's strong retaliation? Who was it who required a "Cease Fire" when the going was going well and underway by our IDF on the ground? Answer: Nasrallah Peter remember,and don't screw the truth please. And how come the IDF remained till the very end in all parts of Lebanon,to subvert the weapons from reaching to Hizbullah? For quite sometime too if your memory serves...

-I simply claim that the IDF, even in its present form, is a formidable fighting machine- It isn't, though it was. The Israeli airforce, and the backup nuclear missile installations, are what makes the IDF intimidatingly powerful. There are, again, special forces that rank with any in the world. Learn from Iraq. You cannot hold territory against 'terrorists'. The power of the IDF has grown as your political capacities to negotiate with your neighbours have withered. It has exercised far too long rolling over pathetically weak cliques of Palestinian militants on open plains and villages. Either you keep pressing on with military solutions, which, given technology, means an eventual holocaust, or you make a regional peace, as the Arab states quest, yield up territory in exchange for disarmament, and security collaboration. The Arabs know far more than Mossad ever will about the madmen in their midst, and in a peaceful region, would share with Israel a common aim for stability.

For his foresight, prescience and projection of grave doubts on Israel's survival Prof Robert Yisrael Anuman merits award of a second Nobel Prize.

My dear Sipporah, I have no personal friends on the other side, and my brother's wife is a Cohen, like yourself. Before leaving to work in Israel decades ago, I picked up my confirmation letter, and a young Palestinian, on a scholarship to be an engineer, and afterwards a member of Al Fatah, saw me open it, and recognized the Israeli postmark. He looked at me, puzzled, because I had befriended him.For an afternoon, he told me his family story, one of unremitting bewildering violence befalling his hapless family. Another I met on my honeymoon, running a small restaurant in the Australian outback, and, when I couldn't pick his country of origin, after naming in order all middle-Eastern countries, he told me he was a Palestinian Christian, from Jerusalem, whose right to live there had been cancelled after Israel conquered the city. I have had several such encounters, with humbled exiles whom history has shat on. I befriend them in memory.

What were the losses at Stalingrad or the battle of the Bulge? Were those losses justified? People must know what they're fighting for. Is there anything you're willing to fight and die for, Clickfool? Will you be willing to fight for your country to remain a progressive, Western nation, or will you be content for it to slide into sharia, with a whimper? What value is Israel to Jews after 2000 years of victimhood at the hands of Christians and Muslims alike? is the land from which Jews cannot be expelled from (at least theoretically) worth sacrificing 3000 lives?

I was mistaken regarding the Israeli military dead, probably because I relied on early figures. Unfortunately, you are right, and the IDF had lost 119. According to the Kuwait Times, Hizbollah burried more than 700, and according to Lebanese sources, 500-700 Hizbollah lost their lives. I never claimed that Hizbollah fighters are not brave. I simply claim that the IDF, even in its present form, is a formidable fighting machine. Without doubt, unless there is some political solution, the entire region will go up in flames. Please pass on this message to your friends on the other side, who have a tendancy to think that only Israel will suffer, or that they can beat Israel by numbers.

The vast reinforcements that were called in came on the last weekend, I watched a stream of helicpters carrying troops pass over my home- On day 3, the IDF realized that the ground plan didn't function. It bombed away for a month, hitting everything but Hezbollah which, they discovered, could fire, dismantle the launchers and disappear in 60 seconds, 30 seconds short of the IDF retaliation schedule. Hence they had no option but to bomb villages. The massive helicopter-born reinforcements you witnessed over Karkur came as the Ceasefire negotiations were in a final stage. I.e. the ground war was lost, troops anchored on the border, and a risky push by air to the Litani was the only way to gain ground. Those forward units were surrounded, and it would have been a greater massacre than it was, had the ceasefire not come into effect. Politics cost Israel three dozen soldiers' lives.

Now, now. The US military sources I've read, and which I drew on, are technical analysts who, like their peers in the backrooms of the IDF, and all over the world, do not examine the data with an eye to public opinion. Until the IDF list of the names of Hezbollah killed is published, so it can be substantiated by independent experts, I suspend judgement. Foreign observers in Lebanon counted 184 funerals. -Another extremely important factor in this war, which seperates it from wars fought between nations, is the use of human shields- This is Hasbarah, and I am surprised you use it. You know better than I that the Supreme Court of Israel twice passed a severe judgement on the IDF's use of Palestinians, esp. children, as human shields. You must know the Haganah orders for the battle of Jerusalem in 48, which denied Jewish inhabitants the right to flee houses on, or near, Haganah gun emplacements. Thirdly, Israel's massive bombing of civvies disproves your point.

Yes Peter the Hezbollah fought well. The rest is garbage. The vast reinforcements that were called in came on the last weekend, I watched a stream of helicpters carrying troops pass over my home. I am also acquainted with a number of people who fought there. This was definitely not an easy war to fight. The Hez had dug in and prepared for this battle, while the Israeli's had to learn as they went. Another extremely important factor in this war, which seperates it from wars fought between nations, is the use of human shields. Hezbollah used basements as gun emplacements and as cover. Unless our soldiers were willing to simply destroy homes populated with families then they had to go in, and this got very messy. Israel continuously suffers causalties because it makes the heroric atttempt at coming to the aid of it's wounded. Hezbollah soldiers are left to die as "martyrs". It is a shame that your learned world view has no place for the human element.

it was a great mistake and a disservice to Isreal to translate Prof. Aumann's speech into English.It was worse mistake to present it as a 'talkback'. Prof. Aumann didn't say that Israel won't survive . He gave speech in order to start soul searching regarding the nature of our ideological and political culture for internal consumption. Now our adveraries gleefully view our expected demise. Ther is no reason why we shouldn't survive as a Jewish state . Cyprus is a Greek state. Northern Cyprus is va Turkish state. All the Arab states are arab Muslim states. Turkey is a Turkish state.We are indigenous to the reagion dispite Arab protests, just like Cyprus is indigenous to the region. In a realpolitik stuation , we have to know our geographic limitations. We have to know how not to lose our 'cool' and go unilateral. When the Arabs are ready to make peace we will make peace. Until then"business as usul". The talkbacks do give an indication how much people especially Arabs still hate us.

Thanks for the book Steen, which I am now reading. One small point, the translation of Li Bai's poem is a little limp (apart from the use of modernized script. That is unfair, given your thesis, on peripheral Asian nations, from Taiwan to Singapore and Japan, still keen on conserving the traditional writing system, which allows rapid inter-Asian cultural recognition). One example, 'keep calling'. A minimal rendition would give something like 'shriek/screech unceasingly'. 'Call' does not capture the incomprehensible animal chitter resonant in the Chinese graph 'tyi'. Good luck

Israel is a vibrant country that is, admittedly slowly, learning to integrate all kinds of people -- the local Arabs, immigrants from Ethiopia, Russia, Thai, African and Filipino workers, Jews, Christians, Moslems and others. It will thrive. If you want to talk about evil brutality, talk about the Arab police states (i.e. every Arab country) that do not allow religions other than Islam, where free speech and press are forbidden, that kill their own populations. They focus on Israel so their populations will not look at their own miserable situations. Certainly the killing in Gaza is terrible but if somebody is going to bomb your house you have to stop him. Peaceful people of goodwill of all backgrounds need to come together.

Professor Aumanns comments may have been taken out of context. In my opinion Israel's survival is in jeopardy and not in the long term. There are too many arrogant immoral and evil Israelis and insufficent competent Jews with the necessary qualities to provide the leadership and strengh for its economic and political survival.

Don't worry about Israel's long-term survival prospects. The world needs Israel, and Israel has come to stay - for a long, long time as appears from the attached e-book, http://www.contrapublishing.com/Afterdoomsday.pdf Steen Hjortsoe

Unfortunately for the peace loving people of the region, Israel has flouted the opportunity to be accepted by its neighbors. The state would have had hope if it was prepared to demonstrated compassion, understanding and patience to the indigenous Palestinian populous. Demonizing Palestinian rightful claims and rewarding the grave misconduct of Israeli?s has virtually sealed the projects fate. The Israel project was created to provide a safe haven for the Jews and not a state of oppression on the people of the region. The eloquent words of Israeli statesmen now ring hollow and untrue to the world community, America will sooner or later lose the ability or will to support Israel what then? Foster love, be loved and live, or foster hate, be hated and die.

?He thinks that the Israeli government had fallen aslepp while in the middle of a snow storm.? More aschlepp, I think. What Aumann thinks is rather clear, even if his thinking is not clear. Israel fell asleep in 1973, it fell asleep as it marched somnambulistically into Lebanon, with pyrotechnic fanfare in 1982, and won itself 18 years of defeat, the destruction of a neighbouring state and the creation of Hezbollah, which took over Nabib Berr?s Amal as the major force of resistance. Israel?s enemy is within, in those many politicians who, raised on the heroic narratives of the Zionist foundation, yet never having fought as the fathers did (note that all modern leaders like Bush, Blair, and Olmert jump to play war, but have no military record), believe the old magic will work if they press the old button. Hard realism in the sons is wilting because Israel?s leaders have always been able to lull themselves in the secure conviction that whatever course of action they adopt, Uncle Sam will back them to the hilt. The signs are that America, not Israel, is suffering ?fatigue? at being the dog as the Israeli tail wags it furiously. If the huge losses sustained by the US in Iraq feed back into public feeling there (many Jewish scholars highlight the problem) then politically, the support will no longer be mechanical. Eisenhower in 1956 stopped Israel from a silly move, and war was suspended for 11 years. Had that fatherly intelligence prevailed in diplomacy, Israel would not be in the bind it now finds itself at present, isolated, feared and increasingly irrational.

.."Too many Jews don't understand why they are here.." Even Herzl didn't mention exactly where Israel should be established. Israel's chemistry doesn't get along with her socio-cultural environment. She is not supposed to be there in the Middle East. Probably Latin America or South Africa would be better for Israel's long-term survival .

Wikipedia gives the Israel figures of 440 Hezbollah dead,550-700 wounded vs.119 Israeli dead, 400 wounded. Independent military analysts based in the south give 184 Hezbollah dead, based on martyr funerals observed and registered. Hezbollah used only one brigade (3000) and never called up reinforcements, as Israel did. Man for man the Hezbollah proved far superior as fighters to the IDF forces who failed to push Hezbollah from frontier villages even after a month of intense bombardment. Only the Golani proved equal, and they were fought to a standstill. The first principle of war is never underestimate your enemy. Hezbollah are tough, dedicated, intelligent, and fully trained in the latest military hardware and doctrines. The IDF bombed the rest of Lebanon, and its civilians because it realised after 3 days that it was getting nowhere on the military front. Israel?s existence is endangered by its policies, and, of course it can incinerate the Middle East (and also Europe, according to Creveld) in a total war, but that would be the last act in a conflagration in which it too will no longer be on the map, unless it begins to change its ways, and adjust its policies to the fact that technology has undermined the mathematics of traditional warfare of state against bands of resistance fighters.

Israel survived the roman empire and will survive the Arabs. Prof Aummann is right but, as usual, Jews will find solutions. The Arabs would like to destroy Israel. Their last hope is now Iran nuclear bomb !!!They are ready to kill millions of Jews and Arabs to reach their objective. A nuclear bomb on Israel will kill also up to Amman, Beyrouth and eventually to Cairo and Damascus. Teheran may also be contaminated! Arabs should use their ressources to make peace and develop the region but it seems that they prefer war. They know well that their cause is unjust.

Take a course in syntactic structure, and logic, in English. The meaning of the phrase is as I construed it: a primary reason . .for war (is) national fatigue?. A reason here refers to causative factors, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Mind you, Aumann may not have said that, but the journalist filing his remarks put it that way. Israel has no future, if people continue to think it can bomb its way to safety. It is a simple matter of technological development. The majority here are caught up in a non-functional mind-set based on nostrums that partially worked over the last five decades, but that are now dated. America smashed the Iraqi army to pieces, has taken 13,000. dead and seriously wounded, and now is abandoning the country (Baker report) to chaos. Why? Because it thought in dysfunctional strategies, and as a result, Iraq can, yes, no longer bomb Israel with missiles, but it is a new vast haven for terrorist recruitment, the south and its resources will fall under Iran?s grip, and Iran, whether you like it or not, will become a nuclear power. Madame, you reason unlike so many in here, but what I say is not ?leftist cant?. It is hard realism, without which Israel will not survive.

"What difference does that make? The Israelis Jews have a greater will to survive than those living outside of Israel." If the Jews of Israel continue to follow the path of militarism, at some point in the future they will get very, very unlucky. Militarism - the path that has been followed for the past 50+ years - is clearly a deadend.

From this morning's Globes Online: "Google opens second Israel R&D center" "VeriFone CEO: Israeli center important for us Douglas Bergeron talks about moving facilites to Israel, and being traded on the TASE." And we will get along without any US aid, thank you.

No little Charlie from Lewes, tenths of thousands of hate postings against Jews and Israel are proof enough. As is the praising of the British occupation of Northern Ireland, the land theft and the sending of settlers there.

Thank you for the background on Mr. Nobel, part of which i was not aware. Even though Mr. Aumann's honoring was in the field of economics i feel that a prize such as the Nobel Prize ought to be given not only for scientific achievements, literary achievements or what have you. I believe that there should be a minimum level of decency and humanity present in the soul and in the thinking of the recipient for what good would all the achievements be if the soul is lost?

I am not a muslim. You do not have to be either a muslim or an antisemite to despise the cruelties of the State of Israel.

And a nation that isn't willing to fight for itself, deserves to wither and die. This land will belong to those that want it most, to those who are willing to sacrifice the most, not to hedonists, stock brokers and opportunists (Olmert and Halutz).

What difference does that make? The Israelis Jews have a greater will to survive than those living outside of Israel. Or maybe you do believe Ahmadinejad's call for " wiping Israel off the map" is not rhetoric after all.

I don't know which 700 years we were interlopers in the Middle East and I don't know what periodd we were nomads. The Jews that remaineed and returned in the pre -zionist era were our taskforce to guarantee our national rights in the country. Maybe we don't at this juncture in history have rights over the whole .However we have rights over parts of the country. The Arabs are the interlopers who left the Arabian peninsula in 636 CE and conquered the Middle east. In principle the State of Israel has the right to exist in geographic Palestine, which in our language is called 'Eretz Israel', and has been called so for over 2000 years.

You even failed to understand the Professor's article. He wants Israel to be stronger, to be more vigilent; he does not a stettle in the Middle East where Jews would be treated like in all shtettles for enturies.

The man is absolutely right in making this statement. I would take it step further by saying that he is being generous by giving Israel 50 years.

..."accused Israelis of being overly sensitive to casualties of war..." Wrong!. Israel lost the war because she was being overly INSENSITIVE to civilian casualties on the other side: illegally killing women and children, and using illegal weapons indiscriminately against civilians. Not only lost, those acts made her a WAR CRIME. No question about this.

in the Talkback are taking Haaretz straight into a hate filled tabloid territory... Also, Prof.Aumann is lucky he is not being recalled back from anywhere in the world for granting an "interview" to someone good at twisting his words, not his truth...Here, it is not what he said, but how it was presented for publication. The spirit lost in that "translation". Next time, Prof. Aumann, keep your own voice recording copy. Who knows, you may need it. All you got now is a cloud of guest flies swarming and happy to take their bite at you standing by the Kotel, at Israel, and all that she represents . Some have already commented on one of Rambam's rulings, that the worst government in Israel is preferred to the best government in the best of exiles. AMEN.

You are being disingenuous, as your other posts clearly show. Israel's neighbours never wanted her there in the first place, which is why the combined Arab armies attacked her as soon as she declared independence. It simply has to do with the fact that Muslims do not want to accept a non-Muslim state in the Middle East on land that they believe belongs to the Ummah. It has nothing to do with Palestinian self-determination, since the Palestinians were not even recognized as a separate national group until years later. If they really cared for the Palestinians, they would not have kept them in refugee camps for the last fifty eight years.

All the stuff you want to do to Israel is apparently dependent on "Allah willing" it. What happens if Allah is not willing? What if Allah instead wills it on you? Remember, the Jews have the first shot at Allah. He also said he kinda likes us, will protect us and bless those that bless us and curse those that curse us. Or is you Allah a different Allah? If he is, then he does not count. I would be very careful with the Allah's up above. They may get confused.

At what price a life? His own son never had the chance to be a father or grandfather!!

The man is right... Isreal cannot survive in that area... the only way for Jews to remain where they are, to go back and live inn greater palestine... as it used to be.

nobel prize is given in these 5 areas physics, chemistry, medecine, literature, peace anything else is a fake period

But you exibit a total ignorance of the facts or deliberately distort it claiming that we Jewish people are some sort of a religious tribe and not a nation.You almost treat Israeli and Jews (only 14 million worldwaide 0 as some sort of a religious cult that needs to be be eliminated like say the Moonies or Manson family. If you would really understnd what you are reading you would realize that: 1)there was never A Palestine sate in history of humanity. 2)there was never in History a state named Trans Jordan or Jordan.3) Israel dates back 3000 years. and Romans expelled us after an uprising(our Intifada)2000 years ago. 3)A myth of Jesus Christ as messiah was created by Christian Church and since then they fought us by all means,Crusaders murders, Inquisitions,conversions and recently the"Final Solution. 4)Jordan was created by Colonial powers(UK and France)in 1919 Peace conference in Paris.They brought a Hashemites and made them Kings. 5)West of Jordan R.was for us TO COME HOME!

You remind me of the joke about Bugs Bunny sitting against a tree picking his fingernails and chewing on a carrot. A bear goes by and says: Hi Bugs, what are you up to? Bugs says: I am just sitting here picking on my fingernails, chewing my carrot and waiting for the lioness to come by so I can shtoop her. A few minutes later a wolf comes by and asks the same question and bugs gives him the same answer. Several minutes later the Lion comes by and asks the same question of bugs. Bugs answers: I am just sitting here, chewing on my carrot, picking on my fingernails and TALKING NONSENSE.

... no where in his article did Mr. Auman call for the "bloody and genocidal expulsion" of any one, Jew or non Jewish from their homes or towns. Shame on you for not speaking truthfully!

The Arab mythology will never seize to amaze me. The idea that modern day Arabs are somehow descendents of Canaanites, who as Kathy pointed out existed way before the Muslim religion came into being, is really droll. By the way, have either of you taken a look at noam chomsky's latest political writings? I found them to be quite instructive.

I keep hiding? I answered your issue about Israel's immigration policy, you just don't happen to like it because it doesn't fit into your analogalistic stance which isn't borne out in fact. You comment on an immigration policy that Israel refers to as Right of Return and bastardize it into some kind of universal right of return which is false. 800,000 Jewish refugees from arab lands and there is no Right of Return for them, or compensation of any kind for them. Israel did not act as the arab league and put them into refugee camps, refusing to absorb them into their countries. 50 million refugees came out of the 40's and the only ones who never got integrated into other countries are the arabs, the only ones to have their own private UN agency. The fact that you consider them "outsiders" 3-4 generations later and don't question why they don't have citizenship in their countries of birth doesn't reflect very well on you.

evangelical christians did not support the nazis to eleminate jews during the holocaust. believers in christ support israel because they love their saviour.the true christians have personal relationship with jesus christ.some profess to be christians but are not.read deuteronomy 18:15 and in john 1:45 philip findeth nathanael, and saith unto him,we have found him(Jesus), of whom moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of joseph(foster father of Jesus).

The professor is right on the money: we do not understand the Arabs or maybe we just turn deaf and blind when it comes to dealing with them.The semantics they engage in is unadulterated crap and that is what bothers us. The fact that they wages numerous wars against us we ignore. The fact that in words and deed they show a murderous intention to destroy us we ignore.We give them territory and they launch attacks from there this we ignore and in fact want to give them more. What do we understand about the Arabs-Klum, Nada, Zero and until we take their threats and actions seriously we are on the way to extinction as the professor has stated and the Left and Humanists are entirely to blame.

"I lived there for 12 yrs and felt and still feel a deep attachment to the land and its people .." Yaakov" You may feel a deep attachment to the land and to the Arab inhabitants, but for the Jewish inhabitants let me quote from a previous post by you. "Life among the Homo Hebraus, where every man thinks his is king David and every Women thinks she is Queen Esther". "Yaakov" That's so revealing.

You probably wouldn't want Lebanon to be a Muslim state either. But it's rapidly becoming so, much to the distress of many scared and oppressed Lebanese Christians. Same happens to Christian Arabs here by Muslims. Religious "freedom" in these parts? Majority rules? The Mid East majority is Muslim. Another Muslim state is exactly what Israel will become if Arab "right of return" is enacted here. It is true what you write of contradiction between democracy, in the U.S. sense, and a Jewish state - a schism of modern Israel's constitution. And there is certainly some racism between some darker and lighter skinned Jews, just as there is between some darker and lighter skinned Arabs (though the latter gets far less media attention). Bottom line is that Jews have undeniable rights to their one tiny nation, one of the first known, and Israel is it.

Obviously game theory doesn't work in this case, because his premises are faulted. The desteny of the settlers is not nessesarily the destiny of Israel all together. They are foremost Israeli citisens occupying confiscated lands on a disputed territory and not just Jewish residents like anywhere else in the world. That is an important distinction to be made. There is no guaranty for the eternal existance of any national entity (it only exist in "olam ha'bah")and if there's any national fatique in Israel it is caused by the occupation. It's another thing to cherish and secure the Jewish heritage to future generations - not only in Israel, but in the world as a whole.

like ron, i left israel many years ago, initially temporarily - to study. for various reasons i've remained living abroad but also remained closely attached / connected to israel - as MANY israelis like me are. most unfortunately, i agree with ron, who in turn agrees with prof. autman.in times such as the present, president katzav has NOTHING BETTER TO DO other than sexually harrassing women working in his office ?! & minister haim ramon's behavior - how to explain SYMPTOMS like these ?! if one stops & really reflects on the factual state of affirs in israel, the inescapeable conclusion is pretty grimm.

like ron, i left israel many years ago, initially temporarily - to study. for various reasons i've remained living abroad but also remained closely attached / connected to israel - as MANY israelis like me are. most unfortunately, i agree with ron, who in turn agrees with prof. autman.in times such as the present, president katzav has NOTHING BETTER TO DO other than sexually harrassing women working in his office ?! & minister haim ramon's behavior - how to explain SYMPTOMS like these ?! if one stops & really reflects on the factual state of affirs in israel, the inescapeable conclusion is pretty grimm.

Cipora, I have this nagging question that nobody has been able to answer yet: Just why do Israel's neighbors want it out of there? Has Israel done anything since its establishment to call for such drastic action?

Jeff What is more all those countries you listed where not Muslim. The were forcibly converted, by taking many of the locals they captured,and took to wives as concubines by the dozens and thus procreated abundantly and the religion spread by this submission. I have a much longer episode,but this will have to suffice for now...

Yes, it applies to EVERYONE!! How can you get pissed at that? LOL.............

You keep hiding behind dialectics that omit the simple truth! Israel discriminates against against non-jews! This is a fact! Israel does allow some "goyim" some more elbow room because it extorts money from certain countries. You know, like the USA and Germany. It keeps harrasing the Palestinians any which way possible. Just think of what Olmert did to them in Jerusalem. But that is not all! The West Bank was NOT ALLOWED to develope economically (with the xception of three years or so after OSLO.) And much less GAZA! The Palestinians water sorces are confiscated and rationed to them, right? While the Palestinians are alloted 1/10 of what the Jews get, the IDF even detroys their water tanks and other infrastructure. And as I said, they are not allowed to return to their homes in Israel proper from Lebanon or any other country! Why? Insofar as Venezuela is concerned, it is run by an imbecile!

Your premises are wrong! Your conclusions are wrong! Your "undeniability" is wrong! Your claim that Israel is fighting "for its existence" is wrong! It is fighting for ever more Palestinian land! Just look at the maps of Israel since the United Nations partition. Israel need sto shed the notion that it is somehoe better than the rest of the Middle Aeast and if it does not integrate, it will be lost in, say, 10 to 15 years.

Dr. Aumann did not mean that 3,000 deaths was 'small change' on an economic scale, but that in terms of the tragic existance of the Jewish people in exile the sacrifice of lives in the Yom Kippur War for national survival was not prohibitive. This economist is a spiritual statesman seeking to marshal the peoples' courage for a long battle that no people should have to endure.

Howdy Johnny; Although roullete is a game of pure chance, there are many gambling games which are not. Poker is one of them. There is an element of chance involved of course, but there are also factors which fall under the bailiwick of game theory such as bluffing or hiding the value of one's hand from the others in the game. It is not possible to separate game theory from probability theory. This is not the exact sciences of physics, astronomy, and chemistry, but rather involves more complicated structures (such as human beings) which cannot be reduced down to a system of simultaneous differential equations which can be solved--at least not within my lifetime at any rate. Well, the Israeli government should have launched the all-out offensive into southern Lebanon two weeks before they did so, but the Israeli government farted around too long. If you go to war, then go to war and don't pussy-foot around about it unless you want one-hell-of-lot more casualties on both sides.

Your selective presentation of fact - thereby pretzelling history - does not make any sense. Emotional baggage and garbage do not correct the wrongs your people have committed during these last 100+ years. Historically, you simply omit the fact that the jews were temporary interlopers in the Middle East for +/- 700 years. After that they became nomads like so many other ME cultures! Was a tiny minority left living there? Yes, but does that give you the right to do what the zionists did with the Palestinians? Only an amoral individual would answer "YES!"

Yes my dear fellow, you are still trying to rationalize Israel's actions! Not only the recent immoralities since the 1940s, but also those committed during the 1920s and 30s. Yes, I know! Israel was established in 1947-79, but the legal and illegal immigrants to Tranjordan and specifically, Palestine, were a group of individuals who considefred the original owners as a nuisance, human trash that had to gotten rid of. Yes, I have studied Middle Eastern history in some detail and would suggets that you do the same! Then and only then would you be able to present considered opinions and stop with this "God is our real eatate agent" nonsense!

I am also for the modern world.Here we have our choices.Thats why I live here. Is it perfect? No. But neither is any other system. I also happen to think that Judaism is brilliant. Children get brought up all over the world in all cultures in different ways. In Asia they push education just as much as Jews do even though we claim some kind of exclusivity to this commitment. Its not all black and white Gabe.

You're quite mistaken. YOU have posted adequate information about your activities. Info is readily available on GOOGLE

?Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day? Allah willing, we will make them lose their eyesight, we will make them lose their brains.? - Khaled Mashal, Hamas leader

Purports to be a convert to Judaism. His short bio also indicates that he worships statues. GOOGLE him and be totally confused.

This is my third try with this post. I don't write anything that I can't document. Secondly you are right, this is not the topic, and I apologize to you. I don't want to be vindictive, but it is happening here. I have never thought were born a "hater". I feel badly that some disappointment caused you to hate Jews.

Professor Aumann: "If a mountain climber is caught on the side of a mountain and it starts to snow, if he falls asleep, he will die. He must remain alert." Peter Dale: "True, but when 'alert' he must decide he must decide in all instances to climmb back down out of the snow storm." Peter, this is stating the obvious, and a truism, if ever there was one. The Professor's point is about not falling asleep, not about climbing down. He thinks that the Israeli government had fallen aslepp while in the middle of a snow storm. As he had said, Israel cannot allow herself to get fatigued, and certainly, she cannot fall asleep. The enmy should not count on this ever happening again.

Lebanon's Hassan Nasrallah ? Sadly, both men and fathers have got some painful issues in common. And both fear their Maker and do not skip their prayers. Their talk perhaps may give us more insights than Arab MK's visits and talks with Nasrallah. No crime talking to anyone. Look at Job in the Hebrew Bible (OT).

Peter Dale: "The IDF in other words can win any war from the air, but the army cannot get anywhere, because modern technology in the hands of a determined and able guerilla force assures that deaths will get to be equalized over the killing fields." In the recent conflict with Hezbollah, the guerillas lost hundreds of fighters to fourty seven among Israeli soldiers. The killing field, as you so coldly characterize it, has not been equalized in favor of the guerillas. Hopefully, it never will be equalized, but should such a situation ever arise, Israel will know what to do. Israel will never allow herself to be in a situation where her very existence is endangered without bringing the same fate and destruction on others.

You must be God! Being God himself is the reason why a Muslim may kill others as godless, Muslims as well. Every religion has done so in the past till we in the West banned religion to the home of the individual. You and your kinship want us back to your religious obscurantism: the only God who is your fancy. Tell me: if you go to buy a suit it will fit all men? But you want it and this makes the troubles in the Muslim world we do not want because we have overcome this utmost stupid selfdesigned idea of the only God in your heads that makes you foes of yourselves. Therefore Prof. Aumann told us to be alarmed. Not as a inhuman Zionist but as man. Your hope to install your own religious confusion in Israel or any other country of the West will be in vane. We want to become humans and not Muslims. Makes the difference. And that's why we will bear any losses to win. For the good of you as well.This you should understand before you have to learn it.

I N-E-V-E-R have reason to apologize. #250 is an out and out FORGERY I don't know if he thinks he's a joker or if he's just a plain old fashioned COWARD. In any event, he has the juvenile mentallity of a slug.

To pick up on your Logic To Keep Israel Independant anf Sovereign , 3000 dead Israelis soldiers sounds terrible but a small change compare to the 500 millions hostiles from arabs ME states and co. To Keep Israel Independant anf Sovereign , 3000 dead Israelis soldiers sounds terrible but a small change also for a never again of pogroms or 6 millions jews killed , gazed and smoked out during the tragic Holocaust 1939-1945. Each one is allowed to choose his reasons of living in Israel , a reason could be that Israel the State succeed at being Sizzeling, Constructive , productive , attractive and addictive , call it Israel Citizenry Love for Israel the State and Citizens. despite the ME and co. threats and dangers , The risk of Israel survival , after a patient wait of 2000 years , are as good as the official creation of the state back in 48, noticeable after 58 years in light of the facts and progress . Israel citizenry should challenge and sharpen everyday Israel leaders and IDF vigilance, include leftists crap out, Peretz, Beilin and co. peace now , 4 mothers ect... i lov'em too but i think they are better productive elswhere like rabin square in the streets not in office power and from time to time to throw at them a candy like winograde

Peter Dale: "Aumann said one of the primary reasons for the recent war in Lebanon was national fatigue." Professor Aumann: "Fatigue in the state of Israel's situation will lead to death." The Professor simply stated the obvious, since Israel is surrounded in the north, north-east, the west and the east by people who want to eliminate her. It is therefore obvious that Israel cannot afford to let down her guard, as she did in recent years, and I can assure you that she will not do so in the future.

Howdy Free thinker; Mr. Alfred Nobel made his fortune by inventing dynamite (TNT) which was a reasonably safe version of nitroglycerine and selling the stuff to the Allies and Central Powers prior to the outbreak of and during WW I. Fortunately, Sweden was neutral, but Mr. Nobel felt guilty at having contributed to the carnage and set up the Nobel Prizes. You said, "What a disgrace to offer such a prestigious prize to so lowly a creature!" Like Yasser Arafat for example? At least Prof. Aumann got his prize in economics and not in peace. Have you ever wondered why there isn't a Nobel Prize in mathematics? It's because Mr. Nobel held a grudge against a German mathematician by the name of Kronicker. No sweat, we mathematicians have our own honor system; it's called the "Fields Medal". And what's even better, it's independent of the Swedes.

Prof. Aumann is absolutely correct, and his words echo the same fear that I feel. If Jews cease to realize that we have a G-d-goven right to the Land of Israel, then we will not remain masters of the land for much longer. The key problem lies with education of Israeli youth. In the public school system, they are no longer taught about Jewish religion, and they are no longer taught about the historic and religious claim that Jews have on the land. Prof. Aumann is also correct that Israel is, in combat, too sensitive to civilian casualties. It is a terrible fact of war that civilians are killed. We must not put our soldiers at risk in order to save enemy civilians. Our boys and girls come first.

He says Israelis don't know why they are there but he doesn't explain why.

Israel used to have lots of allies around the world.She fought conventional wars with her Arab neighbours and always came through victorious.The problem for Israel nowadays is that she can NEVER win against Palestinian extremist groups. These groups have a level of religious fanatisism which ensures their continued success & growth. In addition the Palestinians have won the Diplomatic war in the last two decades.Israeli leaders have made some TERRIBLE strategic mistakes in the past, for example Menachem Begin giving back the whole of the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt between 1977 & 1982.With some forsight he should have agreed with President Sadat of Egypt to devote some of this land for a future Palestinian State. A major problem for Israel is that no areas in this tiny country are safe from indescriminate attacks from terrorists & this is very scary & demotivating for Israelis & can lead to a deterioration in the economic & social wellbeing of the country,similar to Zimbabwe for example

Angel Much as one,anyone deplores the loss of life,it is the nature of the beast--not a pun,but the truth.Wars a beastly,and here's the rub! When you try to save your country from the hordes who are trying to annihilate you,and the soldiers's job is to defend the country's very existence,and they unfortunately in the event die,it is expected. The one thing that I cannot come to terms with is only about the large numbers of deaths during the "Yom Kippur" war.I blame the unpreparedness and hesitancies of the then leaders,who in addition of not believing the attack might have been imminent,they also had to concider world opinion. The last two words are a bane of Israel.They have to concider ways of thinking what the world will either disapprove,or approve.That is totally unacceptable.Israel has to think of itself and not put credence to world opinion.The world opinion does not enter in this equation.Theirs is irrelevant,the sufferings of Israel is a reality...

Dear Professor Having read your article it is clear that Israel will have to rethink its position and to understand that giving in does not constitute gaining our full independence and the peace we so dearly hunger for. Much as we deplore the loss of life during our struggles,it is incumbent on the leaders of Israel to grasp this right,to change our perception and begin to act more decisively and perhaps prudence...

Jeff, While it is an application of mathematics, Game Theory is not a branch of probability theory. That is its whole purpose: to offer optimal solutions to games of strategy rather than games of pure chance (e.g., roulette). There is of course a natural, probablistic element to most game theoretic applications, but there is a controlled element as well. Also, Aumann's son died in Lebanon, which pretty much kills your Ivory Tower point. The fact is Aumann was a refugee from the Holocaust - he understands how much worse things can get unless if we do not make the painful sacrifices in the near term.

Please print my other 2 posts to Gabe 1 (you wont will you?)

Game theory is just that. The practical reality is that Israel possesses the means to annihilate many regional countries and make life very difficult for the rest of the world, for years and years to come, should it be threatened with annihilation. The "viability", "long term survival prospects" and "longevity" of Israel, is inevitably guaranteed by the potential destruction of other major countries in the region and possibly the world. In fact, there are theories floating around that America supports Israel only because it is afraid of the consequences of Israel's annihilation. While I do not agree with the professor on most points, I do agree that Israeli power will ultimately insure its survival, but a peaceful resolution will be a much more welcome alternative.

"...if he is indeed a crypto-Muslim, he is misleading readers. For then his attacks against Israel become those of someone with an Islamist political agenda. " Why the assumption that all Muslims are Islamists? And since when does a contributor to this forum have to declare his religion? Why would certain religious affiliations invalidate reasoned argument? You and your cronies are turning these talkbacks into a personal vendetta that constitutes a massive yawn to most readers. Cut it out.

This might be confusing for you, but many Russian Jews are not Ashkenazi at all. When Jews internalize the fact that Arab does not necessarily mean Muslim and that Muslim does not necessarily mean Arab, maybe the well-known fact that Jews never stayed put for long will penetrate your convenient arguments and open your eyes. Yes, some Sefardim settled in Europe and some Ashkenazim settled in the Middle East and North Africa. Face it: true or not true Semitics, pale or dark, your folks and ours are related. Ismail and Isaac were half-brothers, remember?

Howdy Bandar; You said, "What we need is to accept that the Palestinians are the decendants of the ancient Canaanite,..." There's a major problem with that. Mohammed (PBUH) himself claimed that the Arabs were the descendants of Abraham (a Hebrew) through his illigimate son Ishmael. Abraham died in c. 1900 B.C. The Canaanites (who were southern Phoenicians) preceded Abraham by at least 850 years since the City of Tyre was founded in about 2750 B.C. Also, in the Levant were the Egyptians, Hittites, Amorites, Bedouins, and Hebrews just to mention a few. And you're trying to tell me that the Palestinians are the direct descendants of the Canaanites? Oh, give me a break! And that doesn't even count the Phillistines, Hyksos, Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians (again), Greeks, Macedonians, Romans, Turks, and the British who came after Abraham croaked.

"If the Arabs put down their arms there will be no more war, If the Israelis put down their arms there will be no Israel."This is a very correct statement.Would you deny it? Settlements should be discussed between Arabs and Israel. The settlements are the results of the Arab policy of: no negociation, no recognition; they are likely to expand if Arabs do not negociate. For Israel the question is to know if Judea/Samaria should be Judenrein ? Israel has shown its willingness to discuss (sse Gaza), Arabs show no willingness to negociate and are even happy to polarize situations, they want to appear as victims of victims! I think that such an absurd attitude will not help them.

Gabe,in a totalitarian world such as communism yes its all one big happy family in the sense that you have to give up anything that is not the flavour of the leaders. But I am against that,I am into democracy as a political system.Democracy allows for different ideas within it and ALSO allows for the defence of democracy (even if in an undemocratic way) to save the democracy. This the the kind of happy family I'd prefer to see all over the world. The arabs see this as americanism but I dont. Totalitarian regimes whether fundamentalist religious,communist or fascist see this as a threat because most of the time they are using this power corruptly and while democracy has its corruption,its also has checks and balances not found with totalitarians. Groups USE democracy to defeat it.But thats why democratic countries have common enemies and work together with information to defeat them. I am for a democratic and free and secure world

TA Sorry but I always get a bit p?d off when I hear people quoting ?karma? as an excuse for something. How about turning it around ? suppose what the Palestinians are ?suffering? now is Karma for a past deed of theirs?? Karma didn?t start with this generation did it? You said ?Many Jews say it is written that G-d sent the Jewish people throughout the lands not to return to Jerusalem til the Messiah returns. Is it really written somewhere that will happen?? No, because according to the Jewish faith, the Messiah hasn?t been here once yet, so cannot ?return?. However, is it written that the Messiah will come? ? yes, in the Bible. The Bible is for everyone ?my dear? ? you would do well to remember that. And if you say the Bible source is unreliable, I would ask you in that case, to direct me to a reliable source on the world of Karma. Thanks Karen

Who in their right mind would want to meet you??

Israel determines her own immigration policies as do all other countries in the world. Why are Israelis unable to immigrate to most if not all countries in the Middle East? Why are Israelis unable to visit the arab countries? Why is a person unable to enter the arab countries if they have Israel stamped on their passport? Why? because that's the law. Israel's immigration policy grants Jews citizenship upon entry, not by any "International law of Return" but by her own laws. I don't know Venezuela's immigration policy, but I'm sure she has laws dictating terms and methods of acquiring citizenship. Some people get fast-tracked citizenship to Venezuela do they not? Like nazis.

You say that you can't establish a country for every religion....History has proven otherwise. There were religions in the far East, in Africa, all over the world. Maybe what you mean is that you don't want Jews having a country?????

My last post didn't make it through the censors. I simply said that if you wanted to be anonomous you should have reverted back to your original name. Why keep a Jewish name, when Jews are such baaaad people? Yes I do know all about you because google is an amazing tool.

Your post is one of the few accurate ones today.

Israel must survive because it is one of only two parliamentary democracies in the Middle East. It has human-rights and anti-discrimination laws that are, or should be, the envy of the world. It should strengthen this reason for, and means of, its survival by concluding a just peace with Palestine and hence with its neighbours.

Gabe its all relative. It doesnt matter what religion or what club or what activity, there are always fundamentalists.But most people have some kind of tradeoff,some kind of balance.Those fundamentalist people are intense.It can of course be for good or it can be for bad but most people fall somewhere in the middle.Those people dont fall in the middle.So what is being 'true to the faith' is different for some people than it is for others. But I say its more an individual thing.You want to live it Gabe,I say good luck to you,go ahead.It takes a huge commitment but please try and understand it. If you want to constantly call people names to the point of telling untruths,fine.But its not what we as Jews are supposed to be doing. You want to preach it,Gabe,then live it. For me I am happy with balance,I am happy with the Diaspora,I am happy with Judaism within the modern world.

you simply don't know what you are talking about. You have no idea who I am nor my background, career or abilites nor sexuality, yet you have this construct that you try to promote, comparing me to Gaston?! Woman, we are talking about the comments of a right wing American-Israeli Nobel laureate who made a statement that Israel should endure more casualities and you are making sttements about someone who you have never met? As I said, you need help. You may be an atheist but you thing like a fundamentalist.

ja ja ja.....

as a Christians or Moslem you were fed from childhood that Jews are a tribe and have been clanish in ancient times and grew,as Theodorakis said in a statement during receiving an award in Greece,that"jews are root of all evil".He qualified it to Haaretz journalist two years ago,that he meant "Jews are at the root of evil".He also told Haaretz that he was a fscist during his youth then turned communist.No matter what stage he lived,he hates Jews.BSed toHaaretz but never appologized or deny it.READ HAARETZ interviews with him. Now back to who we are.We are not a religious tribe.We are a nation built by socialists and democrats, refugies from Russin Soviet after 1919 and from central Europe.Weitzman,Liberal was the 1st President.All the governments were secular.It wasn't the Messiah who brought us Israel.The Ortodox demonstrate against Israel on Independence Day.Jewish nation produced more social thinkers,scientists, composers,literature.It is our write to have a homeland.We are a nation

"If the Arabs put down there arms there will be no more war, If the Israeli`s put down there arms there will be no Israel." I've got a better one... If Israel puts down its arms, there will be no more war, but if the Arabs put down their arms, there will be Jewish-only settlements from the Nile to the Euphrates.

Howdy ScotGuy; Israel will survive into the foreseeable future no matter what. Israel has a GDP (PPP)/yr. of $154.5 billion and a GDP/capita of $24,600 and her economy has been growing at a rate of 4%/yr. For comparison, the combined GDP (PPP)/yr. for the Gaza Strip and the West Bank is $2.6 billion and the GDP/capita is $600 for Gazans and $1,100 for West Bankers and their economy has been stagnant since the intifada started in 2000. Furthermore, Israel has one of the best-trained, best-equipped militaries in the world. If the Palestinian militants want to try to destroy the State of Israel, then they are out of their minds. The Palestinians had better get used to the idea that they need to stay on their side of the fence, recognize Israel, agree on where the border is, cease all states of belligerency, and abandon the so-called "right of return" before a Palestinian state can be realized. I wonder how many more centuries that's going to take?

Prof Aumann is right when he says that Israel is too sensitive to its losses, and also to the losses of the other side. The Arabs understood that sensitivity and abuse it. Israel shows it repeatedly, also by exchanging 1000 Arabs for 1 Israeli! Israel should be harsher as required by hamas & hitz (Iran ?). Arabs & their friends are anyway complaining; they have nothing to win with terror. Today, they still do not understand as 66 % are still supporting hamas and do not want recognition of Israel. Obviously, Israel is looking for peace: it left Gaza and wanted to leave the WB. Arabs still look for the destruction of Israel and do not care about the costs in life & sufferings, they are even ready to sacrifice their children !!!Most of these talkbacks show also this hate and "jusqu'au bout" attitude (to the end).

from turning in his grave. What a disgrace to offer such a prestigious prize to so lowly a creature!

Israel is very powerful but very small nation. Although it is able to defeat the enemy & win any battle at any time when focused and properly maintained & prepared, main component of Israeli ability to successfully maintain any campaign (military or political) & more importantly finish the job always somewhat influenced by the degree of image or the element of `untied hands`. It is not by accident the Arab world places such premium on ruining Israeli one. And the degree of image always leads to the degree of cost. To Israel, the question of at what cost is the main component of assuring the degree of survival. (This is what I believe the professor implied by 3000 deaths. Not the `dismissive hand waiving` that may have been interpreted by some, but where it stood in relation to the nation`s survival.) Maybe to no small part of Gaza sacrifice, the world had finally opened its eyes much wider on HAMAS, Hezbollah, Syria & Iran. Is it not where the current forefront of survival issue is?

Not mentioning any names, but I know of whom you speak. Shalom,bro

Bernie, there's merit to your suggestion of Jews from Middle Eastern countries to be actively involved with the region's problems. My father, an Iraqi Jew, has been helpful to my understandings of the situation, now going 30 years really, as I'm Israeli born. He was involved in Israeli politics with his brothers in the 50's. But, you have to understand that the majority of Mizrahim and Sephardim are not Labour or Meretz supporters, and that has been a major problem. Sometimes the level of education, personal experiences and whether individuals are compassionate natured has something to do with it too. We'll keep plugging, but Bernie, I must confess to you that I just love gefilte fish on matza with beet horseradish - yearound!

He sounds like ultra zionist to me.

I am not suggesting putting the crescent on the Israeli flag. What I suggest is that, since Israel claims to be a secular state, it should not at the same time call itself a Jewish State, while proudly broadcast a nonsecular, theistic emblem on the flag. The Flag of Israel, if it showed the Star of David, the Crescent and the Cross, all together, would be one way to do that. Or simply, don't put religious symbols on the flag. Put a new symbol that defines freedom of religion. There is no way that I want Israel to become a Muslim state.

It is a dificult message, but truth not always is pleasant. There is no way Israel will manage to be "like every other nation". For starters its on the Holy Land, not any land, etc., etc.

No one can deny that there was a Judean state in what the Romans at the time of Hadrian was called 'Palestine'. allthe subsequent years aJewish minority continued to live on the land. All the years until the Zionist revolution groups of Jews continued to return to Eretz Israel as if we never left. THe Arabs are 'squatters' on our land for almost 1400 years and cannot pretend that is their land. Even an Arab notable from the last century such as Yusouf Diya al Khalidi admitted such in a letter to Herzl in 1898. Let the world wise upmas to whose land this is.

No parent should outlive his offsprings. Although a nobel prize winner, it is understandable that the man is so gloomy in his outlook for the future. I've also read of a young soldier, reported some days ago, that took his life after he was on duty in the evacuations of settlers. That boy was a kind soul. His anguish for brothers that fight one another should have taught something. Yes brothers fighting one another must stop! Aren't we all brothers in this world? The fight must stop! And not because one has overpowered the other. Israel may be proud of this son, a nobel prize winner; does not need his leadership! Ciao, Mario Fiorito

I reiterate that you want to live in a Democratic Palestinian state even if by name it is called 'Israel'. You are also saying that Neturei Karta that 100 years ago was called Agudat Yisrael before the split of 1945 was correct in their opposition to a zionist state becaus they also said that in a realpolitik situation a Jewish state cannot survive in the Arab Middle East. In a negotiated settlement that wil bring us to disengagement from the Arab world we can be a state like Cyprus that geographically is part of the Middle East but politically is not.

It's my experience that not all economists share compassionate understandings of human beings motivations for existence. If that was the case we'd have relinquished global poverty by now, global economic and socio-educational discrepencies, global military escalation and the nuances of Darwin's Survival of the Fittest. Professor Aumann, as an American economist, espouses the theoritical notions of a society's motivations, when he is totally unfamiliar with the numerous contributing variables of the people, this case being Palestinians, their language, culture, history, family-orientations, - virtually every other variable, aside from the numbers; its superficial (violent) exposure; and the mere fact that it's population is Moslem, his theories and thinking is skewed with complete inaccuracies & unhelpful for the Middle Eastern region. It's advisable that Prof. Aumann return his Nobel prize to Norway because his ethical Jewish quotient is lacking.

You misread me much as you misread the world. You really picked the wrong topic. I am an athiest, dear boy. I believe that I am here only once, and live a life of joy and appreciation. Next year I will be married 50 years to a wonderful man, and I have had a beautiful life. I have also donated money and worked for aids benefits. My best friend,(male) is gay. But Gaston is nothing like you.

"The Jews have survived thousand of years and they will continue to survive so they don`t need you to worry for them" I'm sure they will. I was talking about the Jews in Israel, Willy.

Howdy Johnny; Game theory is a branch of mathematics (probability theory actually) and like most things in mathematics it is very abstract and can be applied to just about anything including economics, biology, military science, and gambling where there is an element of risk. Professor Aumann is analyzing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from the point of view of game theory which doesn't care what it's talking about. It might be serveral molds competing for dominance on a piece of cheese, corporate profits in the world market, or armies on a battlefield. Which led him to make the untactfull remark, "In the Yom Kippur War, 3,000 soldiers were killed. It sounds terrible, but that's small change." Well, it's not "small change" if you happen to be one of the 3,000 Israelis who died in that war. Professor Aumann is in a scholastic ivory tower and is somewhat insolated from reality, but he could be right. He has probability on his side, but I doubt if his extend beyond 20 yrs.

What's your view on that claim the Manhattan Indians have just lodged, claiming that a large and valuable slab of New York real estate is rightfully theirs?

Why do you keep asking Sullivan the same question? I answered you earlier on this forum. Look it up He is not a Muslim. As much as I think that he is a vindictive little man, it is his choice.. It doesn't matter which religion in any case, he just hates Jews. Something in his life triggered this emotional response. Possibly guilt for leaving the church, and being rejected by the monks. He needs a good retreat.

Tanya Reinhart, Noam Homshy's student is Israeli by citizenship, not by soul.

It is interesting how you think, but I as a Palestinian have no problem speaking Hebrew either, and making it my children's first language. What we need is to accept that the Palestinians are the decendants of the ancient Canaanite, Israelites, mixed with Greek, Roman and Arab flavors, and are nationally no different from the many Jews who have similar ancestory. Religion has no place in a real democratic nation. Roots, language and culture can make a Nation, and if Jews want to survive in this region, they have to culturally integrate and allow others to culturally integrate. The land can take care of all its inhabitants, but the laws shouldn't be descriminatory. After all, Religion is for God, and a Homecountry is home for all its people.

For your own sake and the sake of the others on this talkback. you certainly make allegations that are groundless. Perhaps this has to do with the form of religion you ascribe to that believes in a god of vengeance, god of rapture. but get some help.

You said: Both sides have to want the war to stop. War is a conflict. And warring parties are parties having a dispute over, a. o. issues, sovereignty, territory, resources, religion, or ideology. In this case we probably are talking about all mentioned issues. And a multitude of parties or states involved directly or indirectly, both inside and outside the ME. So the situation is complex. No party wants to continue a conflict indefinitely. But war and other hostilities will come and go if no agreement is reached between parties. The other party is not your friend, but your one-time enemy. Agreement is based on mutual consent reached by concession on both sides. Compromise is here the keyword. If not sought and found, quarrels and disagreement will rule, security and order will suffer. War and hostilities will return. It is an illusion to expect that a wall would lead to peace. Or UNIFIL for that matter. 58 years. Enough is enough.

Israel is not an imperialist country, Irael just wants to live in peace with neighbours who want to finish with Israel. Is that not true????!!!!! The famous dictuum is true: If the Arabs put down there arms there will be no more war, If the Israeli's put down there arms there will be no Israel. This is undeniable. Israel after 60 years is still fighting for it's existence. Why on earth would the Palestinians want peace with the Israeli's? So don't come with that bs, of which of the founders of Israel said this or that. The day Israel was declared a state the Arab armies tried to finish up with Israel, and with the exception of Egypt and Jordan, nothing has changed much since then. Luckily for Israel we have won all wars, the day we loose one, bye bye Israel and the world won't be there to help us. It is obvious you and most of humanity have no sympathy for Jews, but we care for ourselves, and for this reason Israel will continue to exist, and to resist.

So impressive is the Russian ?Stone?, that in 2004, the Americans sought to include it in various treaties signed with Russia for precluding the manufacture and sale of certain weapons. Targets may also be found by feeding photos into the missile?s computer by means of a scanner. Syria has purchased 26 of the most advanced missile of its kind in use anywhere in the world. It doesn't look good, for the home front guys Your enemies are arming to the teeth and what are you doing, debating the sexual life of your president and ducking rocks from the Palestinians who are using this as a diversion while the big boys get set up the hardware.

You are either an Ialamist or an anti-semite. Facts have no meaning in your reality.

You wrote: "...middle east jews who got along very well with there arab neighbours." Is that true? Then why did so many Arab countries run by Muslims kill or exile Jews? Why did Iraq, whose Jewish presence there for 2500 years, send the Jews out in the 1950s? Why have the Muslims in the Arab-run countries had problems getting along with anyone who wasn't Muslim?

Yaakov Sullivan has not answered the question raised on Talkbacks by Margie in Tel Aviv and by myself as to whether he has reconverted to Islam. This question is important to the discussion at hand because he himself admits his instability in religious matters and, if he is indeed a crypto-Muslim, he is misleading readers. For then his attacks against Israel become those of someone with an Islamist political agenda. As long as Sullivan is silent on this matter, he is admitting the claim of his re-conversion. Should he state that he has remained a Jew, we can resu,e the discussion.

Economists can translate their goals into "making money". This simplifies their thinking. But when they come to other issues, they can get all confused. The game must have some purpose. I Aumann's game the "game of survival", is it the "game of war", or is it the "game of peace"? People don't usually need to know why they live where they do. Frenchmen are born in France; if they move away, they will assimilate in time into the host culture. Israelis are born in Israel, and they want to keep living in a Jewish culture. Do they need to grow long beards and move to Judea or Samaria to do that? Why not Tel-Aviv, if they like museums and openness? Other mistakes that Aumann makes: 1. Leaving Gaza was a mistake? Have you heard the term "cutting one's losses", Mr. economist? Try playing "war of long- survival", Doctor. 2. The Lebanon war indicates "fatigue"? Fatigued people don't initiate wars. People like Aumann who think the other side is weak and will be beaten easily start wars.

the rest of the jewish people in the diaspora. Christianity retreated from the marginalizing and attempting to eliminate Jews after WWII out of guilt and shame what was done to jews in Europe. Yet,the anti semitism lurked under the surface from 1945 and on. remove Israel from the family of nations and large segments of Christians will revert and try the final solution of 14 millions of us. Islma will join in like it did during WWII ( SS Moslem brigades in Albania and Bosnia, Hj Mufti of Jerusalem in Berlin working with Hitlers Nazis. Those are undeniable facts.!

Italy to sell Lebanon sophisticated ground-to-air Aster 15 missiles to stop Israel?s aerial surveillance of hostile movements October 17, 2006, 12:26 PM (GMT+02:00) Olmert government?s virtual concealment of the impending threat, its blind eye to UNIFIL?s impotence and its failure to raise an outcry against the missile?s impending delivery to Beirut. Israel?s leaders are strongly motivated by their need to stick to the empty boast of military gains in the Lebanon War and the portrayal of the international force?s deployment in the South as a diplomatic triumph. http://www.debka.com/index.php

what a lie ..not only people ..they are warriors who will not give up their land and rights..thats why israel will not survive on stolen land.

"We are too sensitive to our losses, and also to the losses of the other side," That's just a lie. Watching all the cheering that Israelis did whenever they were reminded that the IDF targets civilians only reinforces the truth - Israelis are more than happy to see unnecessary casualties on the other side.

With Arab world slowly but methodically framing Israeli image for so long without interference, it had to be urgently dispelled, the grip of radical Islam and the Arab ultimate vision for the Israeli fate had to be shown to the world and specifically to its leaders. It may not be visible, understood or accepted by all the specific agenda people or `blind & deaf` of the world. But the results are visible & examples are a plenty. Like to start with, I seriously doubt Israel would have been able to respond to Hezbollah provocation the way and in the time frame she did, without Gaza disengagement. Neither Israeli current fight with the terror in the territories, or the Syrian and Iranian posturing and the world`s views on them.

If you have no stomach for conflict, then you must be prepared to perish. And then??? How many Jews will have to die in order to shame the world into providing a homeland in Israel and Jerusalem the site of the birth of our nation. G-d will give us the strength to survive... but we must be diligent in defending Israel's right to exist. genesala

So you are so educated and know so much about the ME? Why don't you enlighten us? Why don't you share your deep insights instead of resorting to name calling ( ג??deja de ser un pendejoג?? is Spanish for ג??stop being an idiotג??) or do you feel very smart because you can insult in a language the censors of Haaretz do not understand?. It must be a pleasure to have you a dinner tableג?¦! Is this all the cleverness that you bring to this forum? Boy Hugo Chavez must be spreading his ``Wisdomג?? in Venezuela this days to a larger extent than I thoughtג?¦ and Simon Bolivar is rolling and twisting in his grave!

HES RIGHT AS FAR AS ISRAELS LONG TERM SURVIVAL IS CONCERNED....THERES A QUESTION MARK OVER THAT BECAUSE OF THE WAY ISRAEL BEHAVES. THE PROFESSORS REASONS ARE SILLY. BY THE WAY HOW DID A GUY LIKE HIM GET THE NOBLE PRIZE?

Sounds one ONE Big happy family. Reminds one of the Bolshevik revolution of 1917. All are going to be equal in your utopian world. And we will all worship the Lord of materialism. Been there done that stepped over a number of people to get there. Sorry but have gone past that and there must be more to life than that. I have always been proud to be different as a Jew and I want myself and my children to be different. Is that why we remained true to our faith in order to assimilate. How sad for you Ronnie.

Thoughts on the Gaza disengagement. I know what the terrorists & radicals thought of it. I know of the Gaza as the `weapons warehouse & the terror lunching pad`. It makes me sick & angry as any opponent of it, to the point that when I see the developments there, my first reaction on few occasions was also `why` preceded by some unprintable words. But than I always think of Sharon and why he did this, and always reiterate just the few points: Neither disengagement from Gaza nor the stay there had never & will never minimize or maximize the `resistance`. It has always been maximized to the fullest both spiritually and physically. Gaza would have had to be given up sooner or later. For the Israeli economic, demographic and eventual security reasons, as well as the reality of the Pal state, if & when they eventually reside to one next to Israel.

Bernie, do you suggest that Israel remove the Star of David from its flag and replace it with the Islamic Crescent? Please clarify your suggestion. While there is plenty injustice and discrimination on both sides here, my point is that it is not racial in nature. I have met many Russian Jews who are much darker than many Mizrahi Jews I have met. One would not think these people came from Russia, but when it is realized that most all Jews originate in the Mid East it makes sense that there are dark skinned Jews with European histories as well. If Israel should cease being the one Jewish state, you might as well call it all Palestine, as the Romans did after their conquest. Most Israelis are well aware that we are surrounded by a sea of Muslims; many live and work with Muslims daily, as do I. But to become yet another Muslim-dominated entity in the Mid East? No thanks. "Land for peace"? It's clear which party has far more land for peace. What of peace for peace?

I am not going to argue with the professor on Israel survival. In my opinion, Israel`s survival, as well as the whole ME & maybe many other parts of the world lay in the `final battle` of good vs. radical Islam. With its growth & spread, with the lies & deception the Arab world had surrounded & protected it over the years, it is presently very formidable force. The only option right now is to stay vigilant, stay on offensive, without jeopardizing integrity use all viable preventive measures. Slow down, contain & constantly weaken that force so it feels it is never fully ready for the engagement. (example would be Syrian aggression containment or Iranian nukes issue). Basically what we call buying time for maybe other factors to interfere & prevail fully or to the great degree partially avoiding the battle. I believe the same rational is somehow in place with the world leaders presently.

Dear All: My apologies for have turned this list into a personal and religional issue. I promiss I wont do it again. Love you all!!!!! BJ

So you really understand the ME? thanks for your humble acceptance of this irrefutable fact.. so why don'ty you enlighten uns.. and stop the name calling in spanish ( ``deja de ser pendejo!" means "stop beeing an idiot!") do you feel very clever vbecause you can isnsult other in a labnguaje the Haaretz censors an not understand? is this the extent of your intellectual habilities and the enlightment you belive you hold? Boy Hugo Chaves must be passing his wisdom arround this days in Venezuala,... and Bolivar ir s rolling and twisting in his grave!

Is true, dont go to personal discussions, take advantage of this talkback to say clever things. Otherwise, everyone will consider your comments junk...

Haaretz's article distorts the meaning of Prof. Aumann's comments. Based on his actual quotes, not the spin put on them by Haaretz, he warned Israelis that the state's survival requires its people to know what makes Israel specially unique and to be clear-eyed about its enemies. He obviously wanted his remarks to be a wake-up call, not a prediction of doom, as Haaretz's distorted journalism would have it.

But the profile of Jews for Peace must be raised. When the Haredim say they do not celebrate independence day, and will not serve in the army, that should be announced loudly. Then, in a loud voice, the Haredim can say, 'We will live among the Muslims and Christians, but we will practice Judaism.' Then a test city can be built with Hamas, maybe Hezbollah, and Haredim living together, with all the women covering their arms and wearing long dresses. Then another test city, one full of prostitutes and alcohol can be built, where the Lebanese Christians and Secular Jews hang out, closer to the beach. And then, everyone will realize, Jews and Arabs can live together.

Sullivan is gay. This has nothing to do with politics or hatred. Indeed I am surprised that he comes here with so much hatred for Jews. You cannot be openly gay in most muslim societies.

Maral, this has been going on for years, and this ben jabo of today might have been any one of many aliases who made the same kind of attacks in the past. The aliases (they seldom if ever write openly)may change but the attempts to disparage are always the same. I argue and I argue strongly against much of Israeli policy. My position is that the country has gone terribly wrong, especially since 1967. I lived there for 12 yrs and felt and still feel a deep attachment to the land and its people but I do not cease criticisng and pointing out the double standard that Israel operates by. They hate me for that and then as a result they go thru a process of transference and attack me as being hateful when it is they who are venomous and will do everything that they think will discredit or embarrass me. Read what this ilk writes about hundreds of Jews with whom they disagree on the Massada2000 Jews on the Shitlist of the Kahanist party. It's appalling.

so many rumours. Easily documented. Born Irish Catholic converted to Jusiasm. Why? Don't know how, possibly for sake of "current mate", or just seeking? Is actor/female impersonator. Rejected recently when applying to be a monk. To Sullivan, I hope you find inner peace. I can't understand why you come here to villify Jews. aSpurned, perhaps.

It is the science of strategy, which makes Aumann perfectly suited to give an expert opinion on Israel's ability to survive. Moroever, the points he makes are in the back of every Arab leader's mind, so it behooves us to consider these possibilities as well. Unfortunately, with the massive brain drain in Israel, the disgusting corruption, and the tiredness of the secular left, the country is in a most dangerous and precarious predicament. It takes courageous, honest, and forward thinking people like Aumann to bring this to the fore.

Guess what happens when a Jew in the supermarked stood in front of you and then some other (roman, greek) guy attacked him and pushed him away and you happily took his place. And when later the Jew wants his place in the queue back and nobody is willing to allow him in then he becomes desparate and in the end he pushes his way in and by doing so he pushes you out. You leave the supermarket and stand in front of it and shout: This Jew guy stole my place in the queue. This is how it looks from our point of view. And I (unlike Prof. Aumann) would like to let you in again because it is your right but not for as long as I know that you intend to push me away.

Perhaps my numbers are wrong, but there are 10 million Ashkenazi Jews in the world, but only about 2.5 million Ashkenazi in Israel. Most of the Ashkenazi are the Jewish Americans, lighter skinned, prominent French, etc. The Mizrahim, those that moved from the Arab countries to Israel between 1948 and 1972 are darker, and are even now still adapting to Ashkenazi culture. And the blackest Jews, the Ethiopians that have been moving to Israel recently, have been treated in a subtle racist manner. I heard that 70-90% of Israelis like and support the Ethiopians, but less than 10% of them want one of their kids to marry one. Over half of Israel is made up of Jews that used to live among arabs. Those same 'arab Jews' should reach out and make peace with Palestine and their arab brethren.

All one has to do is see what happened at the Simchat Torah celebrations in Acre, when the Jews were attacked by Arabs. It was the Jews who were ushered away, but no Arabs were arrested, or asked to leave. What chance is there fore Israel to survive when Jews are discriminated against?

There are white Jews, black Jews, light arabs, dark arabs. The point is, Jews have always lived in the area called Palestine. But prior to the 1900's, they were a minority and they spoke arabic. When the 'white' Jews left Romania, Poland, Russia and Germany they tried to take over. They stopped speaking Yiddish and revived Hebrew. They mispronounced the Hebrew words, but the 'arab' Jews helped keep the language from becoming too westernized. I believe that Israel and Lebanon have similar melting pots. The Maronite Christians have many of the same qualities as the Jews, but Lebanon has decided to live among the Muslims, instead of removing the cedar from the flag and replacing it with a Cross. Israel should try the same thing, because when you really look at it, the Haredim in Israel have a lot more in common with Hezbollah than they do with the secular Jews of Tel Aviv. Yet somehow, liberal Jews and orthodox Haredim manage to get along.

So to you, I say thnak you.

There is a beautiful phrase in Thomas à Kempis that comes to mind, -viriliter in via Dei ambulare - (Lib2,IV, I think), picked up by G.M.Hopkins in his Habit of Perfection, which I think describes the proper serenity of the religious person, of whatever faith, in the midst of virulent enmities and petty backbiting. The pity of what I read here is that there is a total disconnect between the voices of those who believe they are defending Israel, and the profound witness of the Judaic tradition, rabbinical or secular. It is as if even the 'bat qol', the faint interlinear whisper of the Divine, has been etiolated as the modern generations, increasingly net-driven to the point of textual illiteracy, harken only to their own voices, and plug their ears with wax when others or the Other speak(s). Regards Peter Dale

Gabe 1 our inheritance is more than survival and land.It is for a set of principals too. These principles actually are even more important. Just like a shul holds a Torah,the shul and the prayers and study are but a vessel for the principles. These principles define us Jews,more the land does.This is deep. Yes we have gone away from being observant but not because of the arabs and it would never be because the arabs.Actually we,like the arabs,are fighting the forces of the modern world. Because we as Jews have lived in the diaspora and with modern technology for some time,we also have learned to deal with modernism.The arabs havent as much as they are still being squeezed by their spiritual leaders.But on the other hand I dont want to go back to the crazy days and people of the chaida I went to.This is not acceptable to me.We have to work along with modernism. I believe we also have to encourage the muslims to do the same.

B.S.

we have to thank the professor for the advice. i think we can deal with the enemy rather easily.we have major internal problems including corruption which is rather more worrying.we lack the spirit of volunteerism.we are too harsh to one another.we have to understand that volunteers are not suckers.

Hey big guy, please stop using God as your private real estate agent! You expose yourself as a relious nutcase - the same thing that your kind accuse the "Islamist terrorsts" of! Is Jewish terrorism more palatable that the other kinds? Or doesn't relious fanaticism exist at all? Hmmm......

"The only reason for Israel`s military might is that we are surrounded by people who want to destoy us." Really? the peole who you claim want to destroy israel said again and again pullback to 67 and they will normalize 100% with full diplomatic, trade, and cultural ties. But you prefer the state of war since you can always play victim while you digest territory and expell non-jews. At the present rate, the situation is in your favor. you get to kill non-jews with impunity and call it war on terror, and you get to gobble up non-jewish land and call it natural expansion, and you get to scheme in the open on how ot deal with the demographic threat. You rivil in this state of conflict. As a matter of fact, you work so hard to generate the sort of crude and violent backlash that you can point at and weep before the west to get support for your repression.

Even if Sullivan WERE gay, you think that discredits him? It's not that you called him gay, it's that you used that term to insinuate that anything he might have to say is automatically without merit. I don't know about you, ben jabo, but that's just not a way to get anywhere in a discussion..

Daniel, please stop talking about matters that you don't understand! You have no idea of the Middle Eastern history of these last hundred years or so. Besides, you are trying to be clever with a hint of sarcasm and it comes off like a bunch of bs - which is what it is. Deja de ser un pendejo!

Ashkenazi/Russian Jews true origins are in europe, not the middle east. You also are entitled to your opinions but I and many other arabs do not believe arabs and jews are the same "race". Are you telling me there is no discrimanation of Israeli arabs in Israel, because the conflict is based on everything but RACE.

I appreciate that. Of course who knows who these individuals are? They write, as you point out, under aliases and therefore feel themselves protected. They are essentially cowards. They have been attacking me and my background for years. The fact that this is forbidden by jewish tradition means nothing to them. They have been overcome with a group paranoia based on racism and they often have nothing left to their arguments so they make these personal attacks-gentile, irish, catholic, monk, priest, gay, actor. The litany never changes. it all becomes a feeding frenzy for them and it takes on a life of its own.

Hey Reuven, why don't you move to Israel? I know that San Diego is very nice but since Israel is so close to your heart, MAKE the BIG MOVE! Oh, and after making haliya, surrender your American or whatever country's passport you happen to carry! Let's see how much zionism you have left over after this...

I put the addressee's monicker where my own name should be. Apologies for the confusion.

So we occupy someone else's land! Pls Bruno, inform the public, how the Americas where "rightfully" acquired by men from the other side of the planet. Give it back to its rightful owner, before preaching to people with the most ancient title deed in human history (and one that is repeatedly and explicitly reconfirmed in the Koran).

Not a slur, GOOGLE him. It fits him to a "T" as we say in the USA. His hate is only a partial representation of his warped personality.

The conflict with Israel and Arabs can be called ethnic, religious, political, territorial, familial or all of these, but it is clearly not racial or racist. Racism is defined as discrimination based on difference in race. While there are lighter and darker skinned Arabs and Jews, most of both peoples are of the same Semitic race, cousins, in fact, as mentioned before, with closely related Semitic languages. Are conflicts between whites and whites or blacks and blacks considered racist? Of course not. As to racial "difference" between Arabians and ashkenazi Jews - Arabian suicide bombers have been easily diguising as religious ashkenazi Jews for decades. Many Arabians can easily pass as ashkenazi Jews, and vice versa. So much for the dead "racism" argument.

His advice to Isareli Jews "Think and behave as decent people" by what he means: 1) if The Palestininas want to blow you up, give themall the freedom of movment they need (i.e tear down the wall, let them come from Gaza, and release trhem from prision). 2) If the paletinians call for your death and teach their children to hate you and that martyrdom killing jews will take then to heaven, then understand them and give them the economic facilities to keep publishing the hate books and paying the salaries of the hate indoctrinators. 3) If you are attaccked, do not defend yourselvs.. it is much better for Isarel immage to be able to show scores of deadth jews than to show jews fighting for the safety of their fammilies. 4) And be extremmelly thankfull to the Left wing Europenas that have done so juch to avdanc peace and reconciliation of the West woth Isalem ( only having to sacrifice Israel, that "shitty little country", is small change after all): Europe the enligthened

And this ilk, accuses me of "spewing venom", "anti-semitic", "self-hating". Boy, these types just love to attack and defame and accuse and insinuate. With types like these no wonder Auman feels Israel has no long term survival. When yontan from kfar sava and seaman and "ole white boy down under" Tamir are the best a country has to offer, the situation is critical.

I've watched this game of insinuation and vilification for some days. It was characteristic of the USSR in the heyday of Stalinism, slow death via innuendo. The logic is this: Yaakov is just a goy convert, an ex-Catholic and therefore has no right to talk to us Jews. If on the other hand, he has become a Jew, he sounds like he has converted to Islam, and thus, as a heretic, has no right to preach to us Jews. Mr.Sullivan needs no defence from myself of course. But it is highly improper to answer his arguments by a whispering ad hominem campaign, that smears him and then asks the victim of the whispers to fess up and come clean about whether the rumours are true or false. In the civilised world, one ignores this kind of rancourous sub-racist labelling. Sullivan apparently uses his own name: all those who whisper about him hide behind monickers, and thus are both hypocrites, gossip-mongers and cowards. The malice of innuendo and prying has upstaged argument, for you have none.

To Anwar: You better look up in the Koran, to whom Allah had "ordained" this land for all eternity. Muslims are therefore scheeming against Allah's will. In their rapaciousness, they wish to deny Isaac's just share. This might explain the Arab's present historical malaise. Change course and so will your fortunes. Stay the course, and you might end up like those "lost peoples" the Koran decries for having op[posed Allah's will.

Another wet dream natty. Don't worry you never ever let reality blur your fantasies any way. So why start now.

Thats right Peter,don't listen to Clickfool,the fate of Israel is in your hands and other apologists who no whats good for Israel,and thats endless war.

I would just like to remind everyone that, unlike the other Nobel Prizes, the economics prize is not awarded for contributions to humanity. A business consortium succeeded in buying the rights to use the Nobel name, and now annually awards that prize to economists who reach conclusions that businesses like to hear. So we really should not be shocked when he parades his human and political ignorance and naivete.

Aumann wouldn't have been able to get a Nobel for Basic Arithmetic. Aumann is willing to go an eye-for-an eye against the Muslims, and this might not work very well when less than 13,000,000 Jews are confronting more than 1,300,000,000 Muslims. This represents a 100:1 ratio of disadvantage.

It has been claimed on Talkback that you have converted to Islam. Please confirm or deny. Much hangs on yur answer - for example, any moral authority you might have to preach to us sinners.

Nobel prize laureate Prof. Aumann has adopted the Kahanist approach/solution to Israel's survivability in the region. Unless you adopt his vision/prescription which in a nutshell can be summarized as 'by your sword you shall live', the prospects for Israel to survive another 50 years are nil. History is replete with nations which perished by the sword including 'ancient Israel'. So it boils down to that- are his views correct or is history the judge?. I'll bet on the latter.

I loved your analogy, and have such a deep respect for Israeli's. I am discovering that if five Israeli's speak, you have about ten opinions. From secular to ultra orthodox. May you flourish, and may many flowers bloom. The fact that so many Israeli's come here daily for discourse, and even try to reason with people like doris, Khalid, Maureen, marilyn, murray, etc. who urge the Palestinians to die rather than compromise, and Clickfool from Lewes who does the same for his own amusement. I can't even open his posts. You have such inner strength.

We were exiled from the land of Israel 2000 years ago, because of inner-hatred and not having the proper respect for the Torah. Now we have been given a miracle of having the land back somewhat. If we de-Jew Israel like the left wants, be assured, we will be exiled again! WE must strengthem our commitment to Torah! Only then will we be worthy of the land. Zionism in its original form is detrimental to the Jews. We are NOT like any other nation. We do NOT need a "safe haven" (sure is safe huh...). Why are so many people blind to Jewish history?! We do not foloow the same socialogical and cultural laws as other civilisations! What we need is a reawakening to the truth of the Torah!

Keep spinning and dreaming. Only the elite, like Aumann, know why they are in Israel. The rest don't know, and it doesn't matter because they don't count.

Many ashkenazi Jews can most easily pass for Arabian. I am one of them. Many ashkenazi Jews are darker than many Mizrachi Jews as well, including many from Russia. But these truths doubtless contradict racist mind-sets. It is precisely because of the darker Mediterranean look of many ashkenazi Jews that they were easily distinguished by nazis in northern Europe. And on the other side of the coin, many light skinned Arabians, such as Nasrallah, Assad, Arafat, Siniora and many, many more, could easily pass as ashkenazi Jews.

...jews who got along very well with there arab neighbours... That is not what i was told by my wife and her family who were kicked out of Egypt. Quite the opposite. Try not to change history.

Please tell me you know that Ireland & England are DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. That you know that Ireland had to fight for it's freedom from England. When has Ireland ever moved into a populated land & occupied it, claiming God said it was ok? And before you shout it at me - I don't hate Israel...just keep things clear.

The fact that you proceeded to try and discredit Sullivan with your personal slur is only an indication of how warped you yourself are. Tfeh, as we would say in Lebanon.

I agree completely to what you said, Ahmad. Aumann, with his racist and irrational attitude, that Israel will probably not exist in around 50 years only because the Jews-by then-or -till then- miss to ask themselves why they are there! I agree with him that Israel's survival is put on a monkey's hand, but not for the reason he gave-strange as it is for a Noble prize winner in economics-.The reason I give is that the Jews will leave the holy land because the balance of power, and I mean here the USA, will force them to give up. In addition,in 50 years from now, remarkable demographical, economical and invironmental changes will happen that willl force the Israelis to seek the Western hemisphere, starting from EU countries and ending in the USA. The Middle East will engulf Israel in it's chaotic deterioration and will leave no chance for a Western-styIe Israel to survive. The shift of power from Western countries to countries, like China, Iran, and Russia will be another reason.

Imagine calling this giant a "rightist", "warmonger," etc. Only the imbecilic Jewish left can respond in such a way to the obvious truth. Please Israeli lefties, look in the mirror - see the damage you have done to your own country (I have completely given up on Diaspora lefties - they are a bunch of self-loathing sickos). I know some of you are well beyond reason (Haas, Levy, Eldar, etc), but there is hope for the rest of you. Just remember, if someone is hellbent on your destruction, appeasement only speeds up the realization of this process.

As usual, your points are Anti-Semitic. I wonder, how much are you being paid. I've Googled you, for shame! It's no wonder that you're so hateful, looking in your stage mirror must hurt.

The professor is right on the money: we do not understand the Arabs or maybe we just turn deaf and blind when it comes to dealing with them.The semantics they engage in is unadulterated crap and that is what bothers us. The fact that they wages numerous wars against us we ignore. The fact that in words and deed they show a murderous intention to destroy us we ignore.We give them territory and they launch attacks from there this we ignore and in fact want to give them more. What do we understand about the Arabs-Klum, Nada, Zero and until we take their threats and actions seriously we are on the way to extinction as the professor has stated and the Left and Humanists are entirely to blame.

Hi Ben, what is peace. Peace is Peace. A cessation of fire, a change in goals, an acceptance of the other. Peace also entails compromise from both sides. The Pals and their Arab friends cannot continuously go to war, knowing they have nothing to lose. That is what makes war so dangerous, not just the loss of lives but the loss of territory as well. I do not want a "hudna" which is meant to end after ten years. I want the Pals and their Arab supporters to accept our existence as a Jewish state. A refuge for the Jews. I do not want a Vietnam style peace agreement, where the world applauds the agreement and then does nothing to insure that the parties hold to the agreement. Today in Lebanon, after the UN agreement it is the same old shit. The UN and Leb army are not fullfilling their part and they are not disarming the Hezbollah. Peace does not allow for twenty five militias and self=styled terror groups. Both sides have to want the war to stop.

Prof. Aumann wanted to help the people of Israel survive in the future. This is what should have been emphasized in the article. Instead in order to make it more controversial, interesting, and journalistically exciting the emphasis was placed on his saying that we might not survive. It is simply not fair to present his remarks in this way.

Your sense of justice and morality have taken a leave of absense. This assuming you ever had one! How anybody can advocate a homeland for a relious tribe and thereby deny the same right to the rightful owners of that land, is beyond me. Please, do tell me one thing, "Why should jewish people have the luxury of being able to chose where they want to live - either in the country of their birth (assuming 200+ countries worldwide) or in Israel, while at the same time denying that same right to the owners of the majority of that land their right of return?" Hmmmm?

The Nobel Prize Winner was correct in all accept that the Holy One of Israel has promised to sustain Israel. Israel must be ready to do her part.

Everyone in Israel knows why they came back. They know God will save them. Everyone is tired of war not just Israel. The leaders of the middle east need to sit down and work out their problems and put wars behind them. The world needs to recognize Israel. They are human too. Good Luck. Lets all say evil be gone. Sandy

Let's see, where was I? Ah yes, the Arab armies, right? These so-called "Arab armies" were several regiments that were sent sent an a piecemeal basis to fight the haganah. And they were defeated by a larger force that is called today the IDF. Yes, a LARGER IDF. Check your history books my friend. So, to proclaim that Israel wants peace is a misnomer. Israel's approach to the Arabs has been, is and will be "What is mine, is mine. Yours is negotiable." Oh, and ond on our terms, mind you!

Although the founding fathers were of Israel were in the main "non religious" nearly all of them came from either a religious backgound or an environment steeped in Judaism and Jewish history. Unfortunately, today the typical/most non religious Israeli does not have this advantage and instead is immersed in a world of "moral and ethical precepts" devoid from its connection to Judaism. Ergo the estrangement from the "Jewish-Israeli" connection.

Don't lump Christianity together with Islam. At least they're on the same page as Jews (with a few exceptions), for now! Islam however, is the ultimate Replacement Theology! Okay, you're an Atheist, but let's not be foolish!

While being a zionist is not a sin, if you will, but being ignorant of facts while portraying half baked mind farts as history is more that a sin. I would define this as stupid! Israel wants peace. This is a contradiction in terms. Why you probably ask yourself? well, consider that since the turn of the 20th, century, the Arabs were considered a nuisance to be gotten rid of in Palestine. When the drive for the establishment of Israel took more ominous turns as during the 1930s, the treatment of Arabs by the zionist became more antagonistic. Why? Because Jabotinsky, ben Gurion, Begin, Dayan, etc. wnated the Arabs out of the area and treated them as "Untermenschen". You know, like the Nazis treated jews, homosexuals and slavs. When the zionist movement won the 1947 vote in the U.N. the leadership immediately went to war with the Palestinians so as to get rid of them. Yes, yes, I know, you are thinking of the "Arab armies" right? To be continued.

It could have been worse, Aumann could have been awarded the Nobel for peace.

If it were true that Israel wants peace, it would have abandoned the Palestinian and Lebanese territories it occupies, winning the support of the entire int'l community. The resistance against occupation is legitimate and will not end. The oppression and humiliation of people is no proof of strength, but of fear and cowardice.

Always ready to relate to the topic at hand. Always ready with the personal comments. Are you able to argue anything other than cant? notice this apologist writes under an alias. As for ignoring it seems you are rather responding, if only to demean and lets inform the readers what is really at issue. benjacbo, you are nothing more than another sad, pathetic deflecter who attacks the messenger because his message is so bankcrupt.

Aumann has a distinguished looking beard, so does a goat.

except the Nobel prize winner does not give us something of an intellectual trill. He gives us same political crap , that centers on irrationality , and maybe its just a thought , but the Nobel prize winner has run out of ideas .As they say the irrational behaviour is a way of life , but the actual rational for it is hard to understand , as hard as it is to understand Nobel prize commitee for granting the prize for complete idiots.

To lose a son in war would make any man mad, so we have to excuse his excess. How can a human being be "TOO sensitive to our losses and...of the other side." This is what the Jewish State stands for?...and all this relates to game theory? The man should cut his beard,send the hair over to Olmert, and take a well deserved rest.

because it will be chaos then. One can always argue that they all have a God given right for some peace of land somewhere in the world, or you can understand it more symbolically. Just take India as an example. Look how many religions are in India, if they all want to establish their own nation, there will be no more India! It is also a question of manners. If you are in a hurry and want to buy 2 items from the supermarket and there is a long line, you can ask the person in the front of the line to give you permission to take his place because you have only two items and are in a hurry, if he says no, then you have to find another line. You can?t just barge in, without asking for the Palestinians permission, and establish a state as you did in 1948.

Hey Ace, it doesn't make any sense to continue to promote God as the Israelis' "Real Estate agent" in a time when the Israelis continue to hammer the Islamists as being a bunch "religious fanatics." Your folks can be religious nuts but not some of the Arabs, right? Actually, make that "the Arabs" according to the zionist fanatics. So, where do we continue from here? Oh, Oh, and do me the favor of expalining how a "chosen one" from, say Durban, South Africa or anywhere else for that matter, can go to what was Palestine. But a Palestinian - who has property documents to properties in what is Israel today, caanot go and live on HIS property. The morality or justice in this travesty escapes me........

I am not religious.Israel was funded by non religious Jews like BenGurion,Chaim Weitzman and supported by such leading scientists and intelectuals as Albert Einstein and Martin Buber who founded with Weitzman the Hewbrew University. So I can not be "accused" of being a messianic religious colonizaer or settler. BUT I FULLY AGREE WITH PROF. AUMANN.WE ALL MUST TO REIVIGORATE OUR POEPLE TO BELIEVE ANFIGHT FOR ISRAELS FUTURE AS A JEWISH HOMELAND!!! Not necessarily settling in all WB.LETS accomodate palestinians for their own state but lets not give up on the notion and existance of Israel mainly in 1967 borders with some adjustment for security.After such accomodation the Palestininas will lose their arguments against as and if they will continue to aim at our destructions we will be justified to hit back at aggressors to defend our homeland! Believe in Israel.There is no other venue for Jews.If israel is destroyed all Jews will be targeted for a "final solution" by Arabs and Christians!

The Jews have survived thousand of years and they will continue to survive so they don't need you to worry for them!

Today wile those conditions are not bad enough to snap out of our daily lives most people will not be preoccupied to what might be needed in the future for Israel Survival, it's up to our leaders Political or not to do and prepare for the day our survival will be in danger to acquire the technological advantage against our enemies methods and weapons in the future. The day the Existence of the State of Israel is en Danger most of the Israelis and Jews of the world will snap out of their daily lives when really our survival it's in the line: casualties in either side, world or media opinion or even our own lives wont be an issue, The Arabs and the world know this, we have probe it surviving thousands of years and we an army and arsenal we haven't use yet to probe it again.

The true is that most humans will prefer to go with their daily lives even accepting dire conditions and possible failure or even dead, than to stand off and go and fight even to do to war or to do what it's seems necessary for their survival in the future. Jews are also humans and also have the same condition. The main reason why most of the immigrant Jews in Israel live there it's because of survival (living their native countries because of being in danger), better economic conditions (moving to Israel because of better economic conditions) and Zionism (moving to Israel because it's the promise Land). Today wile those conditions are not bad enough to snap out of our daily lives most people will not be preoccupied to what might be needed in the future for Israel Survival, it's up to our leaders Political or not to do and prepare for the day our survival will be in danger to acquire the technological advantage against our enemies methods and weapons in the future.

In making a statement about the alleged racism of Israel state you exposu yourself as a racist. This is not surprising since all Arab and Moslem states at large are blatantly racist and practise religious bigotry against peopl of other religions.Case in point as an example is Saudi Arabia the care taker of the Holly Cities of Mecca and Medina.Non-Moslem can not hold a political office.Likewise Iran the Shiite stream of Isalmwill never allow a non Moslem to be a minister or President of the Islamic Reblic. Simply, in this false democracy of Ayatollahs it is the Ayatollah Supreme Leader who picks the condidates for President office. What follows is a "fraud" where the 2 or 3 "preselected" by the Supreme Ayatollah square of for the final run.Pure bigotry. For you to claim that the ME Jews are true semites is another sign of racism.Your contention that oriental Jews are more friendly to arab neighbors is a pile of BS.In 67 war,I saw Egyptian prisoners begging to be guarded by Ashkenazim!

If only Olmert and Peretz are half as wise as Aumann than Israel will not be having so much problems with its Arab neighbours.

Of course the JEWS know why they are in ISRAEL -- because GOD brought them back to their land in 1948. Read Ezekiel 36:24 " ... take you [Israel] from among the nations, gather you out of all countries & bring you into Your own land" & in : Ezekiel11:17 " I will give you back the land of Israel again" What about Leviticus 25:23.."the land shall not be sold permanently for the land is MINE" - Question: WHOSE LAND IS IT? -- according to the WORD of GOD it is GOD'S land & HE gave it to ABRAHAM: Genesis 13:17 " arise & walk in the land... FOR I give it to you" -- the promise goes on in Genesis 15:18 " to your descendents I have given this land from the river of EGYPT to the great river, the river Euphrates" In Ezekiel 36:5 " I [GOD] ahve spoken in my burning jealousy against the rest of teh nations & against Edom WHO GAVE my land TO THEMSELVES AS A POSSESION" Did you ever wonder how a little nation like Israel won the war in 1948 - 1973 etc -- against 150 million arabs.?

When foriegn children move to Israeal, learn Hebrew in school, then have to come home and teach their parents how to speak 'their native tongue', then it is not Hebrew Land. Jews are welcome everywhere. Torah forms the root of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. There is no arab conflict with Torah. So the Christians needed the New Testament to clear up the ambiguities, the Muslims needed the Koran, and the Jews needed the Talmud. There is no reason that these minor differences should cause so many problems. There is no reason that simply because there are differences between the clarifications in the Talmud and the New Testament, that the differing opinions of different religions were ignored. Israel did not need to declare itself a Jewish State. It simply should have been called Israel, the safe place for Jews, Muslims and Christians.

I've made it a habit to ignore Yaakov Sullivan's warped advice. It's just another GAY act on his part. Keep on wondering who much he gets paid for this form of theatrics.

...for the Israelis and Diaspora Jews, therefore Israel will survive more than 50 years, because we the Jewish nation will make it happen! In order for Israel to exist forever, I agree with proff.Aumann though, for "man does not live on bread alone .... but on every word that comes out of G-D's mouth". The healthy direction for Israel would be to find his spiritual roots in the Tanach, which as I perceive it, are literally FOR LIFE. Lechaim!

Israel withdrew from a situation it should never have gotten itself into in the first place in Gaza. No less a luminary than Ben Gurion was against these Gaza settlements. Herzl would have been against these Gaza settlments. Israel must adhere to its original precepts and maintain its equilibrium. To descend to the level of the jihadists as Aumann is suggesting will only debase Israeli society and be a destabilizing factor.Actually becoming like Hamas will lead to it being in danger. One need only read the tragic history of Israel between the period of the Macabees and the Roman conquest to see that. The Jews became Hellenized and vicious like the Romans and the Greeks with palace intrigues and blood feuds over nothing. Israel needs to adhere to the original philosophy and attitude of the Kibbutz movement as much as possible. It is difficult to be tough but fair. I think Olmert is doing a good job despite all the B.S. and flak he is getting.

His entire political phlosophy is base on Nobel Prize winning logic. Unfortunately, too replace logic with emotion...and yes moral, political and financial corruption.

Only a handful of people will be alive living in the North and South Pole. Everyone else will have perished because of global warming. The Palestine/Israel war and the whole "war on terror" is so massively unimportant in the steady destruction of the planet by western powers and our addiction to oil.

No one can predict the future, the fact is that there is a nasty conflict going on: The Arabs want to end with Israel's existence, Israel wants to exist. As simple as that. So who benefits from war and who would benefit from Peace? What the guy is talking about is commitment from the Jewish side, are we up to the challenge as our parents and grand parents were? For him this is the key for Israel's survival. About what Israel's enemies, say there is a lot of wishfull thinking. Israel does want peace, Israel is tired but the enemies are too, they have to resort to absolute idiots to conduct there cause, they are falling apart and into the dark ages in Gaza and in the Lebannon. It is so obvious by the statements even in this forum that unilateral peace is not going to happen and what they want and deserve is WAR, and unfortunately this is what they have stuffed up their... Israel has done several moves towards peace and diplomacy lately, Hizbollah and Hamas....

I am so tired of the postings that Israelis stole land. They did not steal anything. What was theirs long ago is theirs. What was won in wars should be negotiated to give back in peace accords. Too bad no Arab/Moslem country is willing to allow this to happen.

I've never understood why when the Jews starting setting up outposts in Palestine in the early 1920's and 1930's, why they insisted on learning Hebrew. They were Yiddish speaking Ashkenazi Jews from Europe, that could just as easily have mingled with the Sephardim and Mizrahim in the area, learned Arabic, and lived at peace with the Muslims and Christians around them. Maybe everyone should just start speaking Aramaic again (a language that forms the root of all the dialects in the region), respect each others holy sites, and stop calling Israel a Jewish, Muslim or Christian State.

2000 years after Jesus, we have as many atheists as Christians in the world. In another 2000 years all people must be atheists. And the conflict of Israel and the Palestinians will be forgotten. The planet is a melting pot.

The American Civil War totoalled more than 618,000 dead. The battle of Antietam - just two days cost 22,720 American lives. The Vietnam conflict saw the 58,226 US dead and millions of Vietnamese, etimates run over 5 million. Korean war saw 54,246 US dead. Iraq has yet to reach the 3,000 mark which is the causualties of a minor CIvil War battle. The Holocaust saw over 6 million civilians executed. So in a historical comparison Professor Robert (Yisrael) Aumann is correct. Of course, every death means a never ending tradegy for the family of those killed and even one death is something to be avoided. But in war, especially the wars for survival that Israel is forced to fight, objectives must be met regardless of the losses incurred or inflicted.

I am an avid reader of Prof. Aumann's game theory texts and have used his teachings in my own life. I have reached high public and used this office to steal money which I sent to my children abroad. I am now waiting for the eventual collapse when I will join my children abroad while the suckers who are left in Israel deal with the consequences of my bad policies as a high political figure. Game theory at its finest.

Zionism was founded on the priciple that Israel should be a nation like other nations, that with the formation of the Jewish State the condition of the Jew in the dispora would be eradicated and with the attachment to a land of ones own, normalisation would result. Apparently, Mr. Aumann does not feel this way. Israel is not merely a state like unto any other and its underpinnings must be religious. Apparently, too, he feels Israel will be in a constant state of war, that this is an existential condition and that if more casualties are needed to defend the state then so be it. As for Gaza, he looks upon it as a disaster, a capitulation which only goads the Arabs on to destroy Israel. For him, Olmert's Gaza sham of redeployment that did nothing to end the real occupation was a sign of things to come. Hunker down and be prepared to die. Some normalisation. Israel ends up being nothing but a big ghetto controlling the lives of millions of others.

Folk! What is religious in Prof. Aumann talk? He is talking about theory of games. And this theory reads that consequences of your step depend not on you only but on your partner. He claims that talking about "huge causalities" (25 soldiers per year before escape), "fatigue of the nations", we are telling lies! We are much stronger than several hysterical women from four mother movement supported by left mass media. In fact Jews in Israel send wrong messages to the Arabs. We are watching results. We get sporadically erupted wars after each our wrong message and permanent Arab defeat and massive destruction of their properties, like it was in Lebanon two months ago.

There is no future. Economics, demographics, diminished support from America. The sad truth is that some day soon I will be asked to take in a Jewish refugee from the smouldering ruins and all I can think of are the stories of the refugees from the north stealing from other Israelis who put them up in August. Do you guys really think that American, British or French Jews are going to come to Israel in any big number? One doesn't have to be a 'genius" to read the writing on the wall.

He said: "Israel is an immensely unjust state where evil brutality toward non-Jews is the mode of operation and where reacism is official policy. How can a state as such survive?" So even though as an Irishman he couldn't care a fig if England ceases to exist, I'm sick of people saying that Israel is illegitimate, when those calling for the cessation of Israel have done much worse things. If Israel should cease to exist, all countries are illegitimate and should cease to exist!