Israel, U.S. to meet to discuss differing assessments on Iran

Well, Terrornator, you would learn proper history if you got the DVD Haaretz touted. However, you are not interested in proper history, you are only interested in "his story", which is simply what you can make people believe it to be. So you don't visit TB often? Well, no problem, but you always manage to visit long enough to send me BS, that is a given. Keep on beating your tin war drum. Nobody in the US is listening anymore and the continuation by Zionists of the 'bam bam' of that drum has begun to annoy US voters, who can't believe we almost bombed another country listening to Zionists. Hope you had a happy holiday. Get the DVD. As a Zionist posted me, you will be quite surprised that the title doesn't fit the content at all. Regards.

israel,your begining to sound like a broken record.maybe thats why i dont come to these threads no more than i do,its idiots like you spouting the same old bullshit,over and over and over and over.i cant believe they even post your rethoric bull crap.by the way,i knew about the paul harris trailer bit,i just wanted to let everyone in here know about yours,and to beat all,its taxpayer funded!

It just tickles me the way you chide other posters about them 'arguing' with others that you agree with. I thought you said to 'butt out', but as I pointed out, you are the chief 'butt-er in' and not to comment on the post, but to take up the cause of another quite capable of defending themselves and their views without your hateful input. Once posters understand that you are one of those hard core, hateful zionists who want Jordan to disappear so Israel can have it, you are then understood. Doesn't matter whether you read the post or not, but it is important for readers to note you as the hateful hypocrite you are who supports a Greater Israel and the demise of the Pals totally. Only Connie of Canada even comes close to your mentality. Kill em all, let God sort them out. Well, if Zionists are God's people, and Israel God's land, he is well able to defend it without nukes, wars and rumors of war. Does God defend folks who think like you? Have tea.

It all goes to show that 'I am superior' training and multiple degrees can still produce a person unable to grasp the reality of the situation over there in La-La land. What does your law degree tell you about theft, murder and mayhem? Does it say anything about PROVING a beneficial interest in an inheritance? What is needed to prove it? What of squatter's rights? If you were a regular lawyer without being a Zionist, you would side with the Pals on the legal issues. Of course, as lawyers always are taught, "truth is what you can make the jury believe it is". They also teach that if the facts are with you, cite the facts. If the law is with you, cite the law; if neither is with you, sling BS. Now, isn't that right? Regards.

By the way, as to my academic credentials, I hold a law degree (J.D., and I am a licensed attorney) plus multiple graduate degrees, and I have taught at community colleges, four-year liberal arts colleges, and universities, some of them in Dorothy's own state of Massachusetts, where I lived for a number of years, so I don't think you're going to get very far trying to raise the issue of credentials as you have tried to do. If I ever got a test response from a student of the quality of Dorothy's posts (or yours) it would receive an F, hence my raising the issue with her. As to the substantive evidence I have provided on public support for Israel, to which you are apparently not capable of any response whatever, you may review it at posts #347, #348, and #367, among others.

he he he he dana.It is night fall for some. so beddy byes to you now...till later,if I possibly can be bothered...

But then one cannot expect any good and respectful riposte from you can one ANY? Why are you so hateful?Why the constant attacks?Oh I know,obviously you were hurt because he told you he didn't initate the response,yes?Well,if he didn't,then why not take it like a man,instead of going into a "dudgeon"? So puerile I think...

Yeah, what really takes courage is to accuse others in an anonymous forum of lack of loyalty and patriotism, as is your style. What country are you speaking on behalf of? It's certainly not America. Bigots like you are detested by all Americans who embody the real virtues of this country: multiculturalism, tolerance, and all the values you so actively seek to undermine.

I like the way you enter the discussion here after remaining silent while letting others try to defend your original argument (if we can dignify it with that term). I provided extensive evidence to rebut it while you remained silent, and even now, when you reply, you are unable to present any evidence to defend it, but only some blather about God knows what. When you are able to present some hard evidence, as I have, get back in touch.

Likewise I do not respect anyone who is willing to subordinate Americas interest for a foreign country. Yet at the same time, that person hides here in comfort and allows others to do his fighting for him. Are you related to Pollard?

daybreak to dorothy: " I can`t imagine that you have ever set foot in a college, but if in fact you ever took even one college course, you should go to that college and demand a refund, for your ability to make a rational argument does not exist. Period." And with that, nightfall is indeed upon us. Were I to hazard a guess based on substance and erudition alone, a perfunctory comparison of your posts to dorothy's would lead to the inescapable conclusion that perhaps such credentials as she may have, were earned the hard way. Whereas you, who resorts to denigration, hyperbole and misrepresentation - at the expense of clarity or substance of argumentation - have clearly graduated from the same excellent on-line college of ideology-de-jour that many talkbackers here can claim alumni status thereof. I realize you may be in the process of honing these 'academic" credentials further as we are all witness to the process here. One can only dread graduation day.

Right on the mark is your post! Of course, when they have no defense to the turd of occupation, then their cry is they won't talk to you anymore. That is short for they won't post you any more BS. Kudos to you for your right minded posts which I enjoy reading. Zionists have become rather desperate of late with support for their madness drying up. If it comes down to high oil or no oil, Americans won't have any problem making a choice about support for the Zionists causing the same. Their fight with the Pals is a local issue, 60 years. Jihad is a recent phenomenon and Zionists conveniently throw in their own ethnic cleaning, theft, mayhem and murder into the mix in an attempt to make the world think it is 6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of the other. Americans are waking up to what the int'l community has known for some time. Sadly, we are just finding out the extent of the brutality and madness against the Pals by Europeans plopping down and attempting a 21st century hijacking. Regards.

I did not initiate a dialogue with you on this thread. I had the courtesy to respond to two of your posts previously though I had no interest then nor do I have any interest now in a dialogue with someone for whom I have no respect. Please do not address any further posts to me. I am not interested.

Interestingly that the issues discussed here help to define the issue so well. The issue is not continued American support to ensure the existence of Israel Although, that is what most Jews here, there and elsewhere would have Americans believe. Support for Israel, is code to divert attention from the policy of Lebensraum and ethnic cleansing that has been going on for 40 years. This is the deception that is being played out. Israel has had overwhelming military superiority for the past 40 years. It has not had any credible military threats. American support is being used primarily for the realization of Greater Zion. Or, to use plain language, the expansion of the state of Israel into the occupied territories, with American support. It also means that America is involved in the Jewish military aggression that supports Israeli land expropriation and expulsion of Palestinians from their lands. Not exactly what most Americans believe they the support is used for. If Americans understood that the real issue is for Israeli Lebensraum, the support would dry up. American support is not open ended or unconditional as you think. The Pew poll shows that Israel is not very high on the list of priorities for Americans. Many Jews try to create an illusion that we have a mutual strategic interest in Israel. I have yet to see any benefit, or anything mutual about the relationship. Desert Storm is a good example. At that time, Israel was a liability in every aspect, militarily, politically, and financially. Rosners discussion of the poll data by Pew and Zogby paint a better picture of American support. That is not as wonderful as some here would believe. The question is not asked about support for annexation of the occupied territories or the Palestinian people being disposed. Not that the Palestinians have much of a moral basis for claiming American support either.

You seem to have great facility in a number of languages, so I wouldn't worry about a few spelling errors. I enjoy the way you are able (within limits, I'm sure) to respond to even the most bigoted and hateful posters here with good humor and fairness. Again, all best to you.

Daybreak Did you notice I changed my reply to Nancy somewhat because I misspelt Gallup and Pew. Oh dear I felt ashamed in hindsight and decided to rectify my error. Best Regards :-)

OF YOURS ANY Many people Cipora included worry too much,and with good reason I suppose.Judging the character of Ahmedinejad and his ambitions does give thought of concern. That he is no danger to the U.S or Israel remains to be seen.However,better safe than sorry,and sanctions in my view(and others) should be applied without any hesitation. Don't you agree? p/s I did go,and found aforementioned title.It began with The Equalizer,and I replied in kind.I am not faulting him at all by the way.He is one of my favorites...

Your posts are excellent and do reflect reality. Unfortunately, there are the resident Talkback Zionist detractors of Pal rights who alway go personal and you should ignore it as it detracts nothing from the point of your posts which is that Americans are awake and through various sources have come to see Zionists for what they are, concerned only for Zionists, the world be damned. One of my favorite articles I was given in college was entitled "How to Swim with Sharks". Although it dealt with sharks, it was given because it was quite applicable to human behavior. The trends you cite are irrefutable, but the Zionist posters won't give an inch until they find their canoe tipped in the murky, polluted river over there they have created. That is their problem. Good posts. Happy holidays. Regards. Ballistic.

I am afraid you miss the point. Israel's denial of having nukes was put to bed by Olmert and to keep stating there is ambiguity is nonsense. Point is Golda loaded one on a jet and to me that means she would have authorized its use. Israel is too paranoid to have a nuke as is evidenced by her history in the area, this ambiguity BS and 'we've never used it' will go by the wayside. If I take to heart what Zionists post here, I would conclude Israel is a paranoid danger and as the French FM said is a "shitty little country that will be the world to WW". That about sums it up. I can't figure out why Zionists feel there is 1 law for everybody else & none for them. It is apparently too much of that "I am superior training" they get. Regards.

Kathy, I do not have a problem with mistakes as we all ( well, most of us) make them from time to time. You are not the only one that misread my posts. I did not say what you quoted me as saying. See # 133 # 258, etc. I have repeatedly said that Iran is not a threat to America. I do not believe that at the moment Iran is a credible threat to Israel, but it may become one in the future. But that is not America?s problem.

Well Nancy My bets are on all of the findings about the reliable Gallup/Pew poles more to what I would perceive from your rather convoluted ones. Especially in view that the attack was sanctioned by Pres'Bush when Israel attacked Hizbullah after they initiated it by attacking Israel without any provocation. And thus the 2nd Lebanon war.Israel has every right to defend itself,and for that the U.S would not see it as belligerent action.. I have full faith not only in the American administration,also the rest,of Americans.For you to equate Mormonism with Islam is not only a slur on the Christian Mormons but a ludicrous one to make. Anyway,my confidence is not shaken in the slightest. Have a good dream dear.I sure will and no worries whatever. How hatefully disgusting of you and Dorothy,who are full of glee by perceptions that Americans will desert Israel. Worry not WE WILL SURVIVE COME WHAT MAY,AND WE WILL BE HERE AFTER ALL YOU HAVE GONE AND DISAPPEAR FROM THIS EARTH...

Hi, Kathy. Sure. The reason I provided the Pew and Gallup polls is that they go back at least forty years and people can examine for themselves the public support over that period of time. The title (subject line) of that post from Mark Lincoln to Cipora on this thread was a new low (and made me sick that Lincoln would do it), and it is likely you have been faced with such attacks as well, and I admire your tenacity in the face of that kind of thing (and Cipora's as well). All best to you.

BUT! It did not surface.Cannot remember exactly what I said(did not save it)therefore we'll leave it at that.Listen ANY,if as you say I told Cipora about the coment concerning Ahmed,I probably did read it very carefully I assure you.I am not in the habit in conjuring things. If the said post of mine,or yours,pertaining to the danger Iran poses to Israel is out here somewhere I'll find it.Otherewise you can do a bit of search on my behalf.(On second thoughts I'll do it myself).Thanks.. p/s If indeed you did not,I'll be the first to say to you:Sorry I erred.I am a very direct person,and cannot abide obfuscation...

Daybreak Briefly put Gallup polls show in February of this year:Polls for Israel 58 versus 20 for the Pals. I will go to Pew but theirs is more difficult,because I have to find the correct link rather than read on the upcoming elections and mention on the favourite candidates. In any case you have put your points quite accurtely,thank you.We knowpolls tend to fluctuate,but by and large notmuch has changed this year 2007 at all.

ANY must be dreaming if he thinks Iran under Ahmed and the mullahs are not dangerous to Israel-Kathy # 250 I was about to say leave him be,BUT!conversely it is incumbent upon some of us to counteract his false assumptions.-Kathy 354 Kathy, Can you could tell me where I said that Iran was not dangerous to Israel? I do not want you to work overtime countreracting false assumption. If you can tell me where I said that, I will retract it. In the mean time, perhaps you can pay better attention to what was and what was not said. This will save you much time countering? false assumptions?

I am providing what is called evidence. You have made it very clear that you will simply ignore all evidence. Contrary to what you say, I am NOT saying the Palestinians don't deserve a state. I am saying don't attribute to the American public an attitude toward Israel and the Palestinians that they do not have. That simple. I can't imagine that you have ever set foot in a college, but if in fact you ever took even one college course, you should go to that college and demand a refund, for your ability to make a rational argument does not exist. Period. (By the way, don't participate on Talkback if you don't want to read the posts of those whom you post to. You opened the dialogue with me, not the other way around.)

The polls wax and wane. Nancy is right - it's about trends. As time goes on international opinion on Israel changes depending on what is happening. Generally people support Israel's right to exist but they also believe that Palestinians deserve a state and Israel can be seen as preventing that by some as the lives of Palestinian's get worse. Israeli's lives relatively well and are prosperous. They are no underdogs to many. That said- you insist on responding to me. I didn't open your posts as promised as I don't want to treat myself to the same arrogance from a nasty little twit. I have tried decent conversation and it doesn't work with you because it seems all you are about is trashing someone who you disagree with shoving forward the first thing you can find at google and then saying don't bother me. Buzz off.

With the support of Pakistani scientists and military officers working undercover as "diplomats" at the country's missions around the world, he (Khan) set up what became known as "the Pakistani pipeline", securing high-tech equipment from literally HUNDREDS of companies in 20 or more COUNTRIES. The so-called Islamic bomb turns out not to be an indigenous product, but instead a little bit AMERICAN, Canadian, Swiss, German, Dutch, British, Japanese and even Russian. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IK29Df02.html During a campaign stop in Florida in January 1980, Ronald Reagan was asked about Pakistan's atomic ambitions. "I just don't think it's any of our business," he replied. More below. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/07/AR2007110702280_pf.html Scott Barlow's (CIA) testimony, with a link, in my earlier post should be convincing bearing in mind the work he did specialising in Pakistan's Nuke program and the number of occasions he was taken out of and then bought back into the loop for reasons of expediancy. At the end of the day Cipora, this is all old news, and understood by those who are interested, that just does not jibe with you, for your own reasons. Perhaps we can dig up Ronny and get a signed affidavit?

Psalm 83 says it all!! NO ONE has the right to dictate to God and NO ONE may take what God has blessed Israel with!! Please guys, read Psalm 83! God is real, He is alive and He is NOT asleep for the things happening in the world! We are truely living in the end times. Jesus is coming soon!

Instead of this nonsense about consciousness shifts, you need to take an introductory course on social-science research methods.

The point I was making was that 53% of Americans had a positive view of both the Mormon & Moslem religions; 2 religions that many would have thought would have had a much lower level of support. I do not think that racist comments about Mormons, Christians, Moslems or Jews are helpful. What we are seeing is trend lines and a significant American consciousness shift. The days of American lopsided support for an expansionist hegemonic Jewish colony in the mid-East are over. At some point this will start showing up in UN votes just as it did with the NIE release. The establishment of colonial Israel in 1948 at the end of WWII at the same time the rest of the "3rd world" began throwing off it's colonial masters was always a-historical. Consciousness shifts tend to follow physical shifts and one of the major consequences of the Iraq war and increased cost of oil has been a massive global income shift, empowering primarily 3 countries - Venezuela, Iran and Russia.

The point I was making was that 53% of Americans had a positive view of both the Mormon & Moslem religions; 2 religions that many would have thought would have had a much lower level of support. I do not think that racist comments about Mormons, Christians, Moslems or Jews are helpful. What we are seeing is trend lines and a significant American consciousness shift. The days of American lopsided support for an expansionist hegemonic Jewish colony in the mid-East are over. At some point this will start showing up in UN votes just as it did with the December NIE release. The establishment of colonial Israel in 1948 at the end of WWII at the same time the rest of the "3rd world" began throwing off it's colonial masters was always a-historical. Consciousness shifts tend to follow physical shifts and one of the major consequences of the Iraq war and increased cost of oil has been a massive global income shift, empowering primarily 3 countries - Venezuela, Iran and Russia.

Give proof that the US government was involved. Give references to reputable sources, and ones that I can easily find.

Well Nancy My bets are on all of the findings about the reliable Galup/Pue poles more to what I would perceive from your rather convoluted ones especially in view of the attack that Bush sanctioned the attack at the time on Lebanon. I have full faith not only in the American administration,but for you to equate Mormonism with Islam is not only a slur on the Christian Mormons but a ludicrous one to make. Anyway,my confidence is not shaken in the slightest...Have a good dream dear.I sure will and no worries whatever.... How harefully disgusting of you and Dorothy,who are full of glee by their perception that Americans will desert Israel. Worry not WE WILL SURVIVE COME WHAT MAY,AND WE WILL BE HERE AFTER ALL YOU HAVE GONE AND DISAPPEAR FROM THIS EARTH.

Please. Now you're drawing inferences about public support for Israel based on a comparison of Americans' views of Mormonism to Islam? Earth to Nancy. A 2006 Gallup poll found that when asked what they admire most about the Muslim world, the most common response was "nothing." (Will Israel Survive, Macmillan, 2007, p. 175).

I've been talking about declining American support for Israel in a couple of recent posts. Keep in mind Israel "loses" when American opinion moves toward being neutral or even handed, valueing the Palestinians as much as the Jews. Last week the Wall Street Journal writing about candidate Romney's Mormon religion pointed out that the same proportion of Americans (53%) looked favorably on the Mormon religion as Moslems. That means a majority now views Moslems favorably despite some pretty racist stuff in the mainline Media. Debka file on 12-7-08 reported the Special Relationship has collapsed. By 2007 the Chicago Sun reported on the 1967 attack on the USS Liberty & named Israel as the perp. The trend line is not positive for Israel, but I'm also wondering if support for Israel may have "jumped the shark" due to Iraq and the attack on Lebanon. Jumped the Shark - A defining moment when you know that your favorite television program has reached its peak.

Please direct me to the poll you keep citing, Nancy. What web site? Do you know anything about measurement? This poll (as you describe it) is NOT measuring support for Israel versus Palestinians and Arab countries, it is measuring it in terms of Jewish identity, which is a whole OTHER issue. Jewish identity in a multicultural society is often polled, but it will definitely skew results toward support for Israel if you ask in that context. But again, TELL me the web site for this poll so I can examine it myself.

Kathy - I think so. The polling data I have provided for the U.S. reflect the gold standard: premier polling organizations, long-term studies, consistent results. Thanks for your posts and take care.

In relation to the U.S., which you now conveniently ignore, "averaging all polls conducted from 1993-1999 and comparing these with all polls conducted since 2000, Gallup trends show that the average level of sympathy for Israel rose from 41% to 53%, while the average sympathy for PALESTINIANS rose from 13% to 16%." Now, again, WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? They are indeed comparing a rise in support for Palestinians in relation to a rise in support for Israel, so it means EXACTLY WHAT you keep denying that it means. Sympathy for Israelis is rising at a much higher rate, and your attempts to make it say something the opposite of this do not change that.

The Pew polls do INDEED compare support for Palestinians versus Israel, and here is precisely what they say. Tell me what part of it you don't understand. "In past global attitudes surveys, the American public's strong pro-Israel stance set it apart form other countries. But that has changed as Germans in particular have become much more sympathetic to Israel in its dispute WITH the Palestinians." Now what part do you not understand? And the French also have become more sympathetic to Israel in this poll. The QUESTION CONCERNS sympathy for Israel versus Palestinians. The RISE in support has leveled off (in relation to 2004, the poll from which 2006 showed such an increase in support for Israel), but that is about all. It is not unusual for a high RISE in support to level off. I don't know what polls you have been reading but Pew and Gallup ask about sympathy for Israel VERSUS Palestinians, contrary to what you keep saying.

I was pointing out that the 10% drop in American Jews in just 2 years who see Israel as central to their identities combined with the general sharp drop of young American's who support Evangelical Christianity, the group comprising Christian Zionists leads to declining support for Israel. I think the polls of the last 40 years are irrelevant partly because they were based on keeping American's ignorant of Israeli behavior but that veil got torn away due to Iraq, the Internet & the 2006 Israeli destruction of Lebanon. The Jews as Victims narrative simply doesn't play as well. By 2007 a major US daily the Chicago Sun told the story of the 1967 attack on the USS Liberty and named Israel as the perp & included a false flag op as one of the possible motives. Debka file reported December 8th that the special relationship with the US has collapsed. It cannot withstand an honest, open examination of Israel and its history and that discussion has started.

In many countries in Western Europe and elsewhere, large percentages say they do not sympathize with either side in the Israeli- Palestinian conflict, or decline to offer an opinion. Among those who choose a side, greater numbers in France, Great Britain, Sweden and Spain say they sympathize more with the Palestinians than with Israel; the Germans, Czechs, and Slovaks tend to sympathize with Israel. Fully half of Italians volunteer that they sympathize with neither side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the largest percentage in any country surveyed. The survey finds a little less support for Israel in Great Britain, France and Germany than in 2006 surveys conducted before Israel’s war with Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. The current survey was conducted in April and May (April 6-May 29), before Hamas took over the Gaza Strip following a violent struggle with Fatah.

I suggest you look at the 2007 Pew Polls. Scroll to Part 5. Page 59 and the following. Views of the Middle East Conflict: http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/256.pdf Notice as well that the highest number of people that think that the Palestinians and Israeli's can coexist are in the USA and European countries. FYI- In general support for Israel, does not mean less support for Palestinans. Can you hold that thought? As well you might look at the interior of the polls for the nitty gritty and nuances before you shout your truisms. You are growing a fine reputation with me as a nasty little ----. I don't like name-calling but for you I make an exception just to return your vibes. I won't open your part 2 or 3 for more of the same bad attitdue - I will assume they also contain more false pronouncements delivered with a certainty and a superior air.

Such is your selective blindness. blah blah blah. the blah is presumably to disguise the bits you didn't want to hear. ie; US involved up to their necks in Pakistans nuclear weapons program. But why only speak of Germany and Europe and Khan as if the US played no role. Why isn't Khan, Germany and Europe simply blah blah blah?

Daybreak Well,have I misconstrued Nancy's post? Once having posted it,I wondered,and said so. What say you Daybreak?

As I have tried to explain, one isolated poll (or two on very different populations) is not the way to measure public opinion. You don't, if you are rational, look at a press release in May of 2007 covering 40 years of pollng from a premier polling organization and say it is not significant just because you'd LIKE to believe something else. Moreover, I found NONE of the polls you mentioned regarding Israel at barna.org. Period. You CAN find the polling I mentioned through Gallup or Pew.

Did you actually happen to read my post before responding to it? The poll is MEASURING support for Israel VERSUS Palestinians. The numbers are NOT going in the direction you claim. Support for Israel is rising much MORE than support for Palestinians. Where do you get the chutzpah to look at that data, which says exactly the opposite of what you claim, and try to tell us with a straight face that white is black and black is white. Now, in case you need to hear it again, from Pew: "For forty years, public opinion has consistently favored Israel over Palestinians." This was stated on May 30, 2007. That is the TITLE of their press release. THAT is the TREND. And long-term polls over an extended period of time like this are the best possible measure.

The Pew Global Attitudes survey I mentioned in my previous post was 2006. The numbers MEASURE the trend. I tell you what. You live in Worcester, correct. Take your theory about polling data to any quantitatve social scientist at one of the numerous universities in Massachusetts if you want to give someone a good laugh. Your philosophy is simply ignore the data. Period. Please don't send my any more posts unless you can go to a quantitative social scienist, give me his or her name and contact information, and tell me what he or she thinks about your profound thoughts on polling data.

Nancy Having read your post with outmost care,I have reached the conclusion you have put out a good and balanced view on the polls(if we can trust them) and it doesn't seem to be as bad as Dorothy supposes them.There allways fluctuations in polls especially now after the Iraq fiasco and elections looming around the corner.I have sufficient faith in the Americans in general,be it the American Jews,Evangelicans and some of the republicans who would hold the same views as the previous Republicans of yesteryear. Thanks for the optimistic post,in hopes I did not misunderstand your points...

Dorothy Of course I mean our dana.Oh we know her well. Another one of Tosefta's side kicks.Please Dorothy spare us dana.We know exactly where she is coming from(to put it mildly). So, not a good example. As for the Americans feeling more for the Arabs(let's put the correct nomeclature here)no such people as real Palestinians(not as far as many of us here).As the appellation was acquired through the rat Arafat only since 1963.The name stuck,but makes it not genuine. Back to the Americans siding with them rather than Israel. Fine but what can they expect from such relashionship pray?What benefits,knowledge technical advances and all it pertains. In short quite a lot.Whatever the Americans require is allways through Israel's gift and not terror. If you still think the American public will accept them at the expence of Israel we'll see where you stand come next elections. Have a good Evening

First, you may have failed to notice it, since you don't apparently believe in evidence, but the Pew Global Research study for 2006 shows support for Israel RISING in EUROPE as well. I provided the BEST available data. Period. You choose to try to do some amateur spin job on it. It is laughable. Don't waste my time again.

Times has its up and downs.This does has no significance as ANY seems to suggests.Why he has the need to denigrate his country is baffling to someone like me. I was about to say leave him be,BUT!conversely it is incumbent upon some of us to counteract his false assumptions. And you Cipora did it beautifully thank you.

But what the headlines of the polls don't show are the nuances of opinion. I would show up on such a poll as supporting Israel. Of course. The trend- all polls-if you look seems to be slowly but surely towards more sympathy for Palestinians as time goes on and especially as their situation gets dire and stories appear in the news- That EVEN AS most Americans support Israel. As well- Dana was speaking not only of Americans if you read that post #331 "there has been a sea change among both friends of Israel outside the country - and among growing number of Americans - regarding israel and its policies? Perhaps people were not so much radicalized as profoundly and deeply disappointed"-Dana Well I am. It's an excellent point Dana makes... and it matters not the actual numbers, but the trend.

Polls of American support for Israel for the past 40 years are irrelevant. It?s only in the past few years due to Iraq, the Internet and the 2006 Israeli assault on Lebanon that support for Israel has started such a marked drop. The recent AJC poll showing a 10% drop just since 2005 of American Jews putting Israel as an important part of being a Jew is significant. I suspect many Jews are having trouble dealing with the cognitive dissonance, that is holding 2 contrary ideas at once, which support for Israel's behavior so often requires. A September 2007 poll of Americans under age 30 showed a similar, even steeper drop in respect over the past 10 years for Christian Fundamentalist Evangelicals, the group most likely to include Christian Zionists. The cognitive dissonance issue for young Americans was interestingly evangelicals' treatment of homosexuals. Many young people viewed this behavior as being un-Christian. http://www.barna.org/

You are saying just so much blah blah. Of course, Pakistan has strategic interest for the US. This does not belie in any way the information that I had provided regarding Pakistan's nuclear weapons program.

Signing the NTP is voluntary. Pakistan never signed the NTP, but when the American administration found out about Pakistan's enrichment activities, it slapped Pakistan with sanctions. Today, Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is one of the major worries for the American administration, as you had admitted a few days ago. America's power derives both from its economic and technological might, the two being interdependent. America's moral standing in the world has had its ups and downs since WWII. During the Viet Nam War, America's moral standing was low. At present, America's moral standing is harmed by the war in Iraq.

You have absolutely no proof of your allegation that the person is a traitor, and as such, your allegation is libelous. Furthermore, it is an attempt to silence those who support Israel by the McCarthy like tactic of calling them traitors. No dictionary will help you with this, as you would know if you were aware of the law.

Pew, the other leading American polling organization, had a press release on May 30, 2007, titled "For 40 years, American public opinion has consistently favored Israel over Palestinians." Polls conducted in this way over a long period of time are the gold standard, especially when they are done by a sterling polling organization. Pew writes: "For all 40 years since then (1967 War), substantially larger numbers of Americans have placed their sympathy with Israel than with Arab states or the Palestinians. THAT SUPPORT IS A NEAR CONSTANT IN AMERICAN PUBLIC OPINION ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, BEGINNING WITH ISRAEL'S CREATION AS A STATE IN 1948." (emphasis mine) I don't know how much clearer they could make it. Google it by title of the press release.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Gallup has been polling U.S. public opinion on Israel since at least 1967. They are the leading polling organization, and polls over a long period of time, in which people are asked the same or very similar questions by the same organization are the most reliable. Gallup had a press release on March 5, 2007, titled "Palestinian Israeli Dispute Engenders Sympathy for Israelis." What was the time frame Dana mentioned? Does it fall within that? Gallup, in February of same year, found 58% of Americans sympathetic to Israel verus 20% for the Palestinians. In addition, it is trending toward Israel (March), "as Americans move out of the 'no preference' column they are moving disproportionately into the pro-Israeli column." Pew research confirms basic trends.

her is link to a recent haaretz article, Rosners Blog, that you may find interesting. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=933220&contrassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1

I think you have it backwards.If the Americans had not entered the war(after Pearl Harbour) the British would sure have been in deep shit,and what is more it would not have been the Americans who would have had to speak GERMAN,BUT THE BRITISH. YOU HAVE YOUR STORY BACKWARDS SORRY.-Kathy Kathy, America was critical for the survival of England, yes. But, there is no way that America could have invaded Europe if England had fallen. England?s survival was essential for the reconquest of Europe. Not to mention that there was a moral imperative here as well as a military necessity. Neither of these things exists in our relationship with Israel. Israel is a liability. BTW, your use of caps interferes with what you are trying to say.

possession of nuclear weapons is some natural right that nations possess, is belied by the facts of international treaty relations. ? CJK Each nation does have that right. Signing the NTP is voluntary. But they can also, abrogate that treaty. The power of the United States stems essentially from its highly sophisticated conventional weapon systems, ~and the ability to keep ahead in this field, that makes the United States so powerful-CJK CJK, While America?s military ability and technical advantages provide some security. However, that is tied more to its economy. Its political power comes as much from its moral position. America has lost most of the moral high ground that it once enjoyed, due to its support of Israeli oppression and annexation of the occupied territories over the last 40 years.

The term "traitor" is a legal term. It implies a crime being committed. Calling someone a traitor is libelous, unless that person has been convicted of the crime of treason.-CJK Merriam Webster says Traitor; one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty. I would say that this definition pretty much describes Doktor Brnd and many other people who support a foreign government at th expense of America.

Well American in NY, ~ ? do you really believe they are planning to use it for making electricity?-Gil Yes. I do. But I do not doubt that they might want to have a Mohammed option to counter balance the Samson option. I do not see Iran as a threat to America. If it does become one then it is not your problem. You take care of the problems you create and let us deal with ours. Now will you answer the second Question do you trust the Iran Regime-Gil No more than I trust the Israeli people. American in NY Sleep tight,_ Keep convincing yourself it won`t happen.-Gil I never said that it wouldn?t happen. I believe that eventually a nuclear device will hit America. It could be an Islamic country, China, Russia, or who knows. We have had Jewish terrorist attack American citizens here. I do not differentiate between the two groups as being unfriendly to America.

Hezbollah was in its ascendance long before the 2nd Lebanon war, initiated by the terror entity.They were in power in the U.S, again(long before Hizb attacked Israel).So,you are as usual giving mixed messages. And yes things began to change after Carter?s mismagement when in office and the mess he subsequently left as his legacy. The worse president ever,and a failure to us this day,with Iran. Therein lays the problem. If you need to blame Bush about the ?axis of evil?,why then do you forget who really uttered the same about the Soviets? That was President Reagan and it worked. Bush is not Reagan but then his attachement to the Saudis is something that must be considered when putting points on a subject. I fear you are remiss about those two houses:The Bush and Saudi connection? Ahmed is a fundamentally disturbed man with his ardour in awaiting his ?Mahdi? and no point in arguing. For it is quite clear, anyone with a few brain cells left that may function will understand and get the gist of it?

Indeed Cipora The reason Pakistan was eventually overlooked for their acquiring their nuclear technology and their bomb,was purely for political reasons.Much good it did to the Americans who have been helping them financially for so many years in view of the Afghanistan/Taliban problem. If Musharraf had folowed the desire by the Americans to rid the Taliban,they failed miserably,altough Musharraf could,but would not,and Bin Laden and his cohorts are still in power(more or less)thanks to Musharraf.So much for political expediency...Well said Cipora..

So what's your point dana? Your inclusion of Iraq was unecessary.If Pres' Bush decided to invade Iraq was hardly for Israel's sake.So,why bring it in the equation? And I suggest you desist in finger pointing about so-called colonization.I care not go into your fanciful ideology which bears not a jot to the truth,sorry you are fumbling in the dark. Now you are back more power for Tosefta,which rather than enhance him will not do so at all. I await for Rebekha S next to appear,and the circle will be complete...

Michael This will be a short reply.I would like to to point out to you that many come here with spurious titles which are laughable,and turn out to be Arab/Muslims.I say this because if you hsd read my post properly you would have noticed I said:If I err than apologies are in order.RIGHT? Point taken of your antecedents(if I may say so,typical of the denizens of Britain,mongrels the lot.A well known fact.Britain was invaded by so many countries over the centuries and that is a fact. I am bound to remind you I have in my family many of your background.So,even steven eh? Regards

Not from a person who has a certificate of education in the field of physics,let alone nuclear physics whatever.People are becoming aware of your lack of knowledge.Not many will swallow what you constantly write here.Professor of "physics" YOU ARE NOT! Anyone your age who has a vast amount of time at their disposal can equaily learn much.It means nothing at all.We are not deceived. You obsessively try putting your points and think everyone here are ignorant.But,what people have by now realized is that you are nothing BUT AN AMATEUR AND NOTHING ELSE. I WOULD STOP REPEATING THE BUSH JUNTA BIT,IT IS GETTING BORING.Just as you are one of the biggest bore ever. A reminder,stop discrediting Cipora.I know she can well respond to your inane posts,and quite capable.But I am still angry how you disgustingly addressed her the other night.And you have the gall to continue,and did not(as any gentleman would)apologize for your misdemeanour.

Thought you were talking about the proper special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom. There never was a special relationship between Israel and the United States. It was in the US's best interest tohave Israel as a buffer against Soviet domination in the Middle East. Since the invasion of Iraq there has been a geopolitical shift from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Northern Gulf. The sooner Israelis realise this the sooner they will realise that they must make peace with their neighbours. Which is of course is what the Americans are trying to make them do. Israel probably needs to be told that $3billion a year is not going to happen for ever either. As that money will go to the stans ie Uzbekistan, Khazakstan, Pakistan

Church of England SFB I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was murdered by the Jews

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,,2188777,00.html The above should make quite clear American complicity in Pakistans procurement of Nuclear weapons. "senior officials in government were taking quite the opposite view: they were breaking US and international non-proliferation protocols to shelter Pakistan's ambitions and even sell it banned WMD technology. In the closing years of the cold war, Pakistan was considered to have great strategic importance. It provided Washington with a springboard into neighbouring Afghanistan" Courtesy of Ronny Raygun and his motley crew. The Pentagon also sold Pakistan, Jet fighters that could be used to drop a nuclear bomb. They were adapted to do so despite supposed prohibition against such adaption. All part of the effort to utilise the mujahadeen, under Pakistans supervision in the fight against the Soviet Union.

You wrote that "in the past year or two, there has been a sea change among both friends of Israel outside the country -- and among growing numbers of Americans -- regarding Israel and its policies." Polling data from the most reputable pollsters (Gallup, Pew) flatly contradict your assertion. I can direct you to these numerous polls if you cannot find them yourself online. Do you have any capacity to make the basic distinction between reality as it is and your own biased view of it?

Dana, #331 you are so correct. Debka File reported December 8th that Israels Special Relationship with the United States has collapsed. This is accurate and is a permanent American consciousness shift. I doubt if most are aware of just how fast American public opinion is turning against Israel. Many Americans are aware of the Jewish Israel Firsters role in the run up to the disastrous Iraq War, which has been reinforced by the Neo-Cons reactive response to the NIE report. The Jews as victim narrative collapsed with the Jewish bombing of Lebanon the summer of 2006. Most saw the Lebanese as the true victims and began to wonder about Palestinians and the rest of Israels neighbors. For the first time by 2007 a major US daily the Chicago Sun told the story of the 1967 attack on the USS Liberty and named Israel as the perp & included a false flag op as one of the possible motives. The special relationship could never withstand an honest, open examination of Israel and its history.

Kathy, has it occured to you that in the past year or two, there has been a sea change among both friends of Israel outside the country - and among growing number of Americans - regarding israel and its policies? Perhaps people were not so much radicalized as profoundly and deeply disappointed as the realization dawnned that the MAJORITY of Israelis are content to let criminally minded colonists run roughshod over others at the expense of peace? and that possibly, this laissez faire attitude by Israel's silent majority is but a tacit support for this enterprise? The radicalization is in inverse proportion to the loss of faith in the possibility of a two state solution, the implications of which are nothing to be happy about. The Iraq debacle and the role of the lobbies in it, now oggling a repeat disaster with Iran add more fuel to the ire of many. And no, these are not all anti-semites as you say or arabists as danite likes to say. They are ones who once were true friends.

Pakistan had never signed the NTP.

This is a good indication that the Zionist warmongers are more determined than ever to go ahead and orchestrate a false flag operation that may facilitate the impending military confrontation between the United States and the Islamic Republic. In fact, the latest assessment on Iran's nuclear program is only a smokescreen that the Bush administration is using to tarnish itself in order to take by complete surprise the brute and ignorant American populace with a new 9/11 style attack (a controlled nuclear explosion targeting a major US city to later be blamed on the IRGC). Do not allow be mislead by these sorts of articles.

This is a good indication that the Zionist warmongers are more determined than ever to go ahead and orchestrate a false flag operation that may facilitate the impending military confrontation between the United States and the Islamic Republic. In fact, the latest assessment on Iran's nuclear program is only a smokescreen that the Bush administration is using to tarnish itself in order to take by complete surprise the brute and ignorant American populace with a new 9/11 style attack (a controlled nuclear explosion targeting a major US city to later be blamed on the IRGC). Do not allow be mislead by these sorts of articles.

is it a go or not? Shall we allow Iran to become a clearinghouse for radioactive materials to be used by groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas, who in any case could put together and deliver a dirty bomb if supplied? Or do you think we should just sit and wait till the first one happens? Morals Shmorals. It's going to happen sooner or later. So anyway, I disagree with you and I think we Americans should put a team or set of teams together with the ability to act all over the world to take out individuals or small groups with the intent to deliver a dirty bomb or even a Fat One. The best defense is a strong offense because in the long run, we're talking about millions dead, not just hundreds or thousands. By the way, look in all directions. Because we Americans are hated by a lot of different groups or factions. Not all are Muslim. Anyway, I don't see how India will just sit back and allow Pakistan to go nuts. What about that Church shooter? Sorry Mark. The world is wack!

In the early 1980's there were multiple reports that Pakistan had obtained pretested atomic bomb design, as well as weapons grade enriched uranium from China. China also provided a heavy water reactor, and the design of warheads which are considered quite sophisticated. As the chronology provided by the Federation of Scientists indicates, indeed, achieving nuclear weapons capability is difficult, and few countries achieve it on their own. Sanctions on Pakistan were lifted for political reasons, but as anyone who reads the papers knows, there is a real concern regarding the safekeeping of Pakistans nuclear arsenal.

The NYT reported 11/12/2007 that Putin had awarded posthumously to Geogre Koval the title Hero of the Russian Federation for his spy work against the US Manhatten project, which allowed the USSR to speed up considerably its nuclear weapons program. Regarding the Pakistan nuclear program, as reported in Federation of American Scientists: the program got itsmajor impetus with the arrival of A.Q. Khan in 1975. Khan was a German trained metallurgist who brought with him knowledge of centrifuge technology through his position at the classified URENCO uranium enrichment plant in the Netherlands. He is also reported to have brought with him stolen uranium enrichment technology from Europe. Learning that Pakistan was secretly constructing a uranium enrichment facility, in 1979 the US cut off aid to Pakistan under section 669 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961.

Don't buy real estate in Tehran or Damascus and sell your condo in Beirut.

i hope that the current Iranians are not that tought!

The NonProliferation Treaty has been a great success. Israel refuses it. As does India. So what? North Korea did not develop nuclear weapons until the Bush administrations actions earlier this decade gave it the opportunity to temporarily leave the NPT and eject IAEA inspectors. The story of the Pakistani bomb is one of total perfidy by the United States and China which both helped Pakistan evade the NPT and IAEA. There are PLENTY of nations in the world who could make bombs and DO NOT. I lack the conservative love of nuclear weapons, or the liberal loathing. I do not favor their proliferation, and would be glad to be rid of them. I do not see them going away, but I can see why they are rejected by most nations. It is not a 'moral' act. It is simply that there are far better ways of securing one's future and far more useful and less expensive ways of defending a nation.

To destroy Hiroshima the United States assembled two interlocking pieces of Highly Enriched Uranium (roughly 90%) which together were about 7 inches long and 6-14 inches in diameter and inside a cylinder of tungsten carbide steel almost 2,000 feet in the air. The assembly method was simple gunnery using techniques available at the turn of the 20th century. Simple ground impact could have done the trick, but detonation above ground level would cause the most damage. Thus the complication. The "problem" wasn't making the 'bomb' it was knowing how much Uranium to use and producing the Uranium. By 1946 everyone who wanted to know, knew how much Uranium (depending upon compression and reflector) to use. . . They also knew via the "Smyth Report" what approaches to use to enrich the Uranium. By 1946 the 'GREAT SECRET" of the Atomic Bomb was that there really was no "secret" at all. Just physics and engineering based upon well known principals.

"Mark seems to think if you open a book on Nuclear theory that you therefore have the know how to produce a Nuclear Weapon." - Mike M No, I think anyone who has been willing to spend the money since the early 1940s has succeeded on their first try. Anyone who thinks that there is some great 'secret" which only a vast scientific program can reveal has not read the "Los Alamos Primer" and anyone who thinks that there is some vast secret about producing the necessary materials has not read the "Smyth Report", both of which have been available for a very long time. If you wish to comprehend just how crude an effort can produce a nuclear weapon, I suggest you study the South African program which was crude, expensive and worked. It was also detected. . .

Debka file reported December 8th that Israel’s “special relationship with the United States has collapsed…” This is accurate. It is also a permanent American consciousness shift. Once you know something you cannot un-know it. Americans have turned decisively against the Iraq war and many are aware of Israel and the Jewish Israel Firster’s role in the lies during the run up to the war. Despite the controlled media, the “Jews as victim” narrative collapsed with the Israeli bombing of Lebanon the summer of 2006. Most Americans saw the Lebanese as the true victims and began to wonder about the Palestinians, Syrians and the rest of Israel’s neighbors. By 2007 the Chicago Sun published a story of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty naming Israel as the perp and included a “false flag” op as one of the possible motivations, causing some to wonder what else has not been told. The “special relationship” could never withstand an honest, open examination of Israel and its history.

"Again.. you are missing the point of all this. Israel would NOT use a nuke except in response to a nuclear attack ON Israel." - Mark T Israel came very close to using nukes in the Yom Kippur War. It scared the crap out of Nixon and the Soviet Union. It appears that had Syrian tanks swarmed down off the Golan they would have been hit with tactical nukes. I do not consider Israel as a likely source for a nuclear first strike. Today the ONLY nation who's leaders regularly advocate such action is the United States. In the case of Israel an existential threat could come from a major invasion from a bordering power (spell that Syria) and thus it is perfectly reasonable to conceive of the 'trip wire" being below the nuclear threshold. In WW II the use of nuclear weapons was not even given any sound examination. They were just used. Since then it has become increasingly clear that their only practical use is to deter an existential threat to nations which possess them.

I am not a "nuke nut." I am not given to demanding the use of nuclear weapons. I understand them, and do not consider them very usable except in the most extreme circumstances. I also am quite aware of the problems created by nuclear power generation. Nuclear power creates a horrible long-term pollution problem which probably can be dealt with. Fossil fuels create a far more imminent and threatening pollution problem. There is a very sound reason why the ONLY nation to use nuclear weapons was the United States. That is that the United States is the only nation which enjoyed - for a few years - a nuclear monopoly. With the exceptions of the US and the USSR ALL nuclear powers have created limited arsenals sufficient to deter the destruction of that nation. Rumor has it (grin) that Israel is in such a position. Pakistan has not nuked Israel. We were told 20 years ago that the instant Pakistan had the "Islamic Bomb" it would. It has had that "Islamic Bomb" for about 20 years.

". . as well as the actual weaponisation." - Cipora Weaponization? The first atomic weapon used in warfare was a "Little Boy," specifically Unit L-11. The design was not tested before use in combat because there WAS NO DOUBT it would work. Unlike the Fat Man (F-31 Unit) dropped later on Nagasaki, the L-11 had NO provision for self-destruct if the arming and fusing system failed to detonate the bomb. Because hitting the ground would provide enough impetus to the projectile assembly of the L-11 to ensure detonation. No Cipora, you fantasize about the difficulty of making crude atomic weapons. The only way to prevent their proliferation is to ensure control over the production of fissile materials. And that is EXACTLY what the IAEA is good at. Though North Korea was prepared to separate Plutonium, such separation was NOT detected until AFTER the Bush administration caused the expulsion of the IAEA inspectors in 2001. If you wish a reading list to help you understand, let me know.

"A country like Pakistan or Iran have had to rely on theft of designs from western sources." - Cipora Cipora, Pakistan was provided - with the agreement of the Reagan administration - the plans for a 12 kt Chinese rocket warhead (first tested at 1:10 GMT on 27 October 1966). The development of more advanced weapons by Pakistan shows that though they took the easy way to a fast bomb, their ability to do the design work necessary is their own. "We are not talking about nuclear theory, but about mastering the production of centrifuge technology," - Cipora And do you think the only use for centrifuge technology is for Uranium enrichment? ". . . and of fissile production, as well as the actual weaponisation." - Cipora "Fissile production"? Fissile means capable of being split along natural planes of cleavage or undergoing fission (splitting). Fissile is an adjective Cipora. It is not a secret.

"It is well known that mastering the technical and design problems involved with a nuclear weapons program is difficult." - Cipora Julianna Kohn No. You are quite wrong. It was technically daunting in 1942 when no one was quite certain it could be done and no one had done it. By 1946 everyone understood it could be done and the Smyth Report had provided the entire world a blueprint. "Indeed, even the USSR, as is well known, resorted to spying to advance their program." - Cipora Actually it was a double edged sword. Kurchatov was both glad to have confirmation of his work, and dismayed to have Beria order him to put aside a superior design and create a replica of the Christie Core Implosion Bomb. See: Holloway, Stalin and the Bomb, Yale University Press, 1994, further citations upon request).

Iran does not behave like you think it should behave simply because you think it should or think it's "unacceptable". Modus operandi- scold them. By all means don’t bother to understand them or ask questions. Why would Iran ratchet up it's terror? What would drive it to violation of a treaty it signed? What is Iran asking for? What would hold it to UNSCR's when others are not so held? Asking those questions would put you lightyears away from the disjointed case you make about how bad Iran is. Perhaps you would be thinking about solutions that might work. What does Ahamadinejad’s holocaust denial have to do with this? What’ is it really about? CAN Iran really annihilate Israel? Or is it bluster and the other way around? What about threats from the US president regarding WW3- not apocalyptic? Regarding Lebanon 2- do you think that perhaps Israel’s lack of restraint may have sent those missiles towards Israel ? Given Hezbollah more support? If there is a war with Hamas- of course it will be Iran’s doing, not Israel’s. Israel ( armed to the teeth) is the victim, always, just defending herself, not responsible in any way for any terrible toll that she may be forced to bring upon big powerful enemies like Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iran. Cipora says ” The idea that Iran is some third world, misunderstood, pushed around country, is totally ludicrous. Iran is an imperialistic, hegemonistic power, that has been acting to enlarge its influence in the region, with a view of changing the balance of power.” I never said or intimated that- you pull that out of your b-tt. I am saying that YOU haven’t a clue about Iran because you have an idea about it and can’t see beyond that. But as to the substance of this quote- it’s not as if imperialism, and hegemony and enlarging one’s influence are otherwise unheard of. You have to be kidding.

"IRAN IS MAKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS! WE MUST GO TO WAR!!! IRAN IS NOT MAKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS! IT WILL LEAD TO WAR!!!" So is she or isn't she? Apparently it makes no difference, the conclusion in either case is the same: "we must go to war." The sickness is among those who are overcome with Israel's power and who glory in its obsession for violence. There are many Israelis that are sane. But sad to say, Joe B is right! their leaders are nuts!

I did not claim that Bush pushed Iran to develop nuclear weapons. ( To quote Ronald Reagan- "there you go again"- making it up) I said that Bush's method of dealing with Iran has made them feel that they need it more. What the hell does Iran's theocracy have to do with this? or chants of "Death to America" ( whatever that means, whatever you THINK that means). Again you cloud the issue while accusing me of that. Regarding Hezbollah and Hamas ( which also have nothing to do with the nuclear issue)- please look to Israel for what gives them cause and followers. Without Israel they would not be what they are. Yin and Yang. Israel has not raised the temperature in the Middle East? How about Lebanon for openers? Do you think that anything Israel has done ( or not done) may have contributed to the rise of Hezbollah or Hamas these last few years? All the recent chatter in the US and Israel about attacking Iran starting with Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech which raised the temp quite a bit. How about the US plans to put missiles in Eastern Europe pointing at Iran? How about US warships aircraft carriers in Persian gulf for a show of force? And all the little stuff like the stream of verbal threats coming from on high in the West- most notably from the lips of Cheney/Bush /Rice and whoever warmongers in Israel at those levels- which apparently mean nothing in your assessment- only what Ahmadinejad says counts and that “these people” (Iranians) have been chanting “death to America” since 1979.

Mike What he reads from magazines and the web.He has nothing to do bar sitting in his armchair being a pseudo general with a bit mouth nad what is more I get tired readig(seldom do) his mention of the Bush Junta.Repetitions and more of the same.Cipora has more in her little finger than Mark L will be ablr to achieve in a lifetime.Sorry,but I had to get this out of my chest after his outrageous and discourtious behaviour last night toward Cipora. Fed up and tired with these two(Tosefta+Dorothy,and Mark L) I'm away now and want to relax a bit...

Of accusing Cipora. You are trying to manipulate things to suit your twisted purpose.I sent you an addendum,but I will repeat some of it in case it doesn't come out.I had never heard you show any feelings of remorse at the time of the Lebanon war and the anguish and suffering of our families in Israel. No sympathy for those children's fathers who were away fighting the dreaded Hizbullies.There you were in your garden gathering your autumn leaves(remember).How comfy,how lovely and all the time finding fault by particularely pointing out to Tosefta(if he was still using the same pseudonym)with disgust about the little children drawing the symbol of MAGEN DAVID ON THE ROCKETS DUE FOR HASSAN.So much for sympathy.A one sided one and an a disgraceful one at that.YES MADAM YOU CERTAINLY HAVE NOT CHANGED.I am not like Cipora who is very balanced and polite.You just write long episles which mean nothing but "bovine scatology" ENOUGH WITH YOU AND YOURS..

The IAEA has stated that Iran has not fullly cooperated, so they are unable to make a determination. People who would like to see the IAEA get full cooperation from Iran are not "babies clinging to their blankets".

Oh yes Dorothy How well I remember that not a word from you about tghose children's fathers who were fighting and you had no compassion whatever,and all you thought to say to Tosefta was just what I just put out.The country was split in two,families all separated and suffering from the daily rockets fired by Hassan and there you were moaning oh poor children how naughty of them for putting the symbols on the rockets. That was the sum of your sympathy about our Israel.You are a disgusting person and if it wasn't for your mention to Danite:yes I am the same Dorothy(too true indeed) I would have forgotten it for a minute.But not anymore,now that you are back.Hey,how are the leaves in your garden hmmmm.That was your only thought of the day when you sent thar stupidly ansd insensitive post to your friend here.Will I FORGET IT?NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS...GO AND PREACH ELSEWHERE... ANY TYPO ERROR IS UNDERSTANDABLE(MY ARM IS STILL HURTING BUT WHO CARES)

People very rarely change, and almost never for the better.

You wrote "it(Israel) is afraid of losing its hegemonic status in the Middle East, and the only way to regain it is to trick America into wasting more lives and money for the sake of Israeli belligerence." Please enlighten us as to what American lives have been lost for the sake of Israeli belligerence. I'm interested to read what you think has been going on here...

Thanks for that - you said it better then I did. Mark seems to think if you open a book on Nuclear theory that you therefore have the know how to produce a Nuclear Weapon. I wonder if he has ever been involved in any large projects.

Again.. you are missing the point of all this. Israel would NOT use a nuke except in response to a nuclear attack ON Israel. This is why the ME has not really done much to pursue nukes. Yes, everyone suspects Israel of having nukes, but everyone also knows Israel is very restrained about things...compared to most countries in the region. I find it rather humorous that people are oh sooo worried...40+ YEARS after Israel was FIRST suspected of having nukes. LOL

"When I talk about Iran deciding at the highest level to become a "nuclear power" I mean, of course, deciding to acquire the nuclear enrichment and reprocessing technology to produce electricity." You have said in other posts that you understand their desire to acquire Nuclear weapons as a deterrence. What a phony.

Everyone you don't agree with or whose argument you don't understand or don't care to understand belongs in their own little box in your head with their own cute label.

Really Raad. I can say from PERSONAL experince IN Iran, reading English dailies, like Tehran Times, that their newswas focused primarily ON Israel. Their news declared 911 to be a plot by Israeli Mossad. Their news was vapidly anti Israel. Compare this to Israeli news being if anything too neutral, keeping nearly all emotion out of the articles and posting facts. It would have been scary, reading Tehran Times, if I hadn't laughed at the absurdity of their so called news. It's like Fox News in the US..only a magnitude worse. Mark-

Will I ever forget it?Never! I remember you writing to(gosh was it Tosefta or Ben G?) about the little girls who suffered being cooped up during the swcond Lebanon War,and your bloody comments on oh how awful for those children who were putting the symbol of the MAGEN DAVID ON THE ROCKETS THAT WERE GOING TO SEND TO THE ENEMY.Will I ever,ever forget your particular disgust?NEVER! I did not read anything worthy from you decrying what those children,families and the rest of Israel was going through.Not a word!I remember the DOROTHY WHO HAS INDEED NEVER CHANGED.

Obviously, you have some psychological need to denigrate the loyalty and patriotism of other Americans. Perhaps it is the only way you know to make yourself feel important. That is your problem. I have no such need and would never take the low road of calling into question the loyalty and patriotism of those whose opinions are different from my own. There have always been in America people who take this low road of telling others that they are not real Americans. Asian friends of mine tell me that they get this message very frequently. I have no illusions it will ever disappear from American life, but even most of my Asian friends agree with me, despite their continued experience of bigotry, that it is not the true reality of what this country is about.

Click, obviously, you didn't quite read the information available on Arrow. Arrow has not been tested in combat because it just started deploying in the last what...2 years? There are primarily 2 batteries, with an additional battery in production. Based on the performance of the opposing missiles, I don't think Israel has anything to worry about at this point, or in the foreseeable future.. In point of fact, Arrow has been tested on several occasions, with mixed results. Certainly, though they have had better results than patriot gave. Oh yea.. Israel also has Patriot. BTW.. How many missiles do you REALLY think Iran, or Egypt, or Syria could send toward Dimona at once? I doubt they could send more than Arrow could track and prioritize... ead up on the Arrow tracking radar :) MArk- Nice try though.

You made my point precisely. Israel as never threatened the use of nuclear weapons. In fact Israel has gone on record as stating, quite emphatically, that they will OT be the first to introduce such weapons into the region. Iran, OTOH, has declared openly, their aims of nuclear and other strategic weapons AND their plans to use them if the right opportunity arises. Virtual certainty and reality are not the same, I might also add. There are MANY ambulance chasers, so to speak. Pacing forces on alert is exactly that...placing them on alert. Again, that isn't a threat. It isn't delivery. It is merely placing their missiles on alert; missiles, I might add carry conventional payloads as well as the *ability* to carry non conventional payloads, if such exist. Heck, Israel has developed a growing aerospace industry, including communication satellites, earth sciences sats, etc.. The Jericho missile developments played a major role in the development of satellite industry. Mark-

Now israel argues that the NIE report isn't acceptable because it doesn't support their agenda so they beat the drums of fear. "Oh, the region will be destabilized and driven into war". The biggest destabilizing factor in the Middle East is Israel and our support of it. As for the threat of war, it won't happen unless they start it. This is not our problem, in my opinion. Israel has abused its neighbors and fostered a hatred for it all by itself. Israel hasn't complied with a single UN resolution, ever. Its own WMD program undoubtedly feeds the paranoia and rhetoric in the region. Who cares what Israel thinks? I would like to see the IAEA go after Israels nuclear program. I am certain that the reaction would be spectacular and filled with claims of persecution and divine right. It's about time the media starts pointing out and talking about the fact that Israel sits as the absurd and hypocritical gatekeeper to nuclear technology in the Middle East. That Israel has not signed the Nuclear Non Proliferation act and refuses inspections should be brought up everytime the word Iran is brought up. It should also be remembered that when the Israeli's were building their first reactor at Dimona they too were secretly building a nuclear bomb and lied to the US and US inspectors about it. Whatever the neocons insist Iran is doing, Israel has already done it and worse. If israel bombs Iran there will be worldwide condemnation. Israel needs to be dealt with before Tehran.

The reservoirs in the middle east are showing signs of depletion and new reserves are not being proven at anything near a sufficient rate. There are new reserves being proven in Central Asia, but while the Bush junta has spent a trillion trying to steal the oil of Iraq, China, Russia and to a lesser extent India have been gaining control of the new reserves via diplomatic and financial activities. During the last 5 years the US has been largely muscled out of Central Asia and the members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. The latter, almost unknown to Americans and Israelis, is rapidly becoming the most important diplomatic and military alliance in Asia and thus the world.

Back to the beginning. When a post has ad hominems in it, I suspect there is not much else of substance. After you wave your arms about all the other complaints you have about iran having nothing to do with their nuclear program (what you think they believe in, or should believe in,how awful you think they treat their kids- you now tell me what the issue is. That is after you have done your best to cloud it. On top of that you once again misrepresent me. Where have I ever said they are ENTITLED to nuclear weapons? You imagine. I merely offered reasons why they would feel they NEED them. That’s different. If you don’t understand my argument or do not have a good response then you make a straw man argument of your own, side step, to go after me personally. If anything is “juvenile” that is. More importantly you apparently think that designated outlaws can be scolded and threatened and sanctioned into conforming.

"The U.S. has no business discussing Irans internal affairs with israel nor anyone else for that matter and neither is it israels business." - Joe B There is nothing wrong with the US and Israel comparing notes and exchanging intelligence. Some in Israel have clearly thought that they could get a war started between the US and Israel. They are now disappointed that it appears it will not happen. "Iran has no missile that can reach the U.S. so there is no threat." - Joe B By reducing the throw weight they have been able to increase the range of their current missiles. Still no threat to any nuclear armed nation. "They are building a power plant which they have that right being a signatory to the Non-Proliforation Treaty." - Joe B This drives the paranoid half-wit types crazy. "Under the treaty they can even build a bomb if they want to. " - Joe B No, you are totally wrong. The NPT clearly prohibit developing nuclear weapons.

It is well known that mastering the technical and design problems involved with a nuclear weapons program is difficult. Indeed, even the USSR, as is well known, resorted to spying to advance their program. A country like Pakistan or Iran have had to rely on theft of designs from western sources. We are not talking about nuclear theory, but about mastering the production of centrifuge technology, and of fissile production, as well as the actual weaponisation.

The Parthians also, according to legend, executed Marcus Licinius Crassus by giving him what he invaded them to steal - gold. The gold, it is said, was molten and poured down his throat. A fitting end for a man who lusted for pillage.

ANY I think you have it backwards.If the Americans had not entered the war(after Pearl Harbour) the British would sure have been in deep shit,and what is more it would not have been the Americans who would have had to speak GERMAN,BUT THE BRITISH. YOU HAVE YOUR STORY BACKWARDS SORRY. Hey,you allways argue with people who do not conform,to your thought process.I noticed you arguing like mad with Tim R ...just go and think again.And if I may add you did not read my long addendum to U.K Michael...

Cipora hello Good post to the both of them.What bothers me and it's their loss,the fact of presenting very long responses(wonder if it is done purposefully).Identical in their cases.One would like to read them,but one look and off I go.Furthermore we know the usual stories will be manifestly opposite to what we may perceive,and correctly so in my view. They just are a waste of effort on their part. Whether you read them in toto,I know not,but I couldn't be bothered.Birds of a feather those two. Regards and Keep it Up p/s Haaretz plp put it out for Cipora.J.K thanks

Thanks for the correction...not 400 hostages.

It seems to me that you consider anyone who supports Israel a traitor to the US. You seem to forget that people are guaranteed freedom of speech. Those Americans who advocate a close relationship with Israel have every right to do so, even if the policy of the US should be different. Only totalitarian countries attempt speech and thought control. Although you claim to be an American patriot, you seem to have no understanding of your country's constitution, and of its very strong guarantees of freedom of speech. Indeed, you strike me as someone whose main value lies in bullying people on the internet, from the safety of your anonymity, which tells me that you are essentially a coward.

Sat Dec 15, 11:35 AM ET JERUSALEM - Israel's public security minister warned Saturday that a U.S. intelligence report that said Iran is no longer developing nuclear arms could lead to a regional war that would threaten the Jewish state. IRAN IS MAKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS! WE MUST GO TO WART!!! IRAN IS NOT MAKING NUCLEAR WEAPOMS! IT WILL LEAD TO WAR!!! This is one sick demented paranoid people suffering from psychosus. These people are all NUTS! This is not a country, it us an asylum! The U.S. needs to get any israeli national out of any government position and distance itself from these nutcakes.

The term "traitor" is a legal term. It implies a crime being committed. Calling someone a traitor is libelous, unless that person has been convicted of the crime of treason.

Iran, rather than enjoying victories that just fell into its lap, as manna from the sky, decided that it would ratchet up its terror export, and its provocations. It is Iran who is in violation of the NTP, and of UNSCR's. It is Iran who has denied the Holocaust, while threatening Israel with annihilation. The unacceptable, apocalyptic rhetoric is coming out of Iran. Iran's funding, training and strategic help to Hezbollah, Hamas and Syria, are a direct threat to Israel. Iran is already responsible for Lebanon War II, which could not have occurred without Iran's arming and funding of Hezbollah. Should there be a war with Hamas, the terrible toll of such a conflict can be laid directly at Iran's feet. The idea that Iran is some third world, misunderstood, pushed around country, is totally ludicrous. Iran is an imperialistic, hegemonistic power, that has been acting to enlarge its influence in the region, with a view of changing the balance of power.

*17* Tell me dear friend,would your grandfather being a good Jew,would he ever,even if he was a secular Jew,would he ever,ever,say to you as supposedly said to the person you have just asked(you know)would your grandfather utter the word" Christ? NEVER EVER,NO WAY! Rubbish!Of course there would have been a lot of disputes and discussions in the house and grandfather would MOST CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE SAID:IF YOU WANT TO TAKE TO CHRIST into your heart etc,etc.Get my meaning *17* eh ?? What a stupid lie it was all about. If you have any opinion and you,agree with my thoughts and sentiments pertaining this "TALL TALE" then I'll give you a "MEDAL" Have a Good Night/day Regrads

It is Iran who started this little game of let's see how much we can provoke. Iran is run by a theocratic regime, led by the Supreme Leader, otherwise known as the jurisprudent, none other than God's representative on earth. These people, starting with Khomeini, have been chanting "death to America" since 1979. Their nuclear program pre-dates the Bush administration by decades. It is therefore logically impossible to claim, as you do, that it is Bush rhetoric which pushed Iran to develop a nuclear weapons program. To the contrary, it is Iran's nuclear weapons program, and its export of terror to Hamas, Hezbollah, Iraq and others, that has raised the temperature in the Middle East, and has largely contributed to the destaballisation in the region. Indeed, the war in Iraq, destroyed Iran's main enemy, namely Saddam, although that was not the reason for the war, but an outcome of it. The same is true of the war against the Taliban.

Unlike some people I don't come on here just for the sake of fighting. I am not a pacifist, but I loathe war, having seen it up close in the Balkans. War with Iraq was not necessary so I was dead against it and at the moment I see no compelling reason to justify war with Iran. We obviously view Iran in a different light and ultimately only time will tell which of us is right. You are, I have to say, way, way off with your implication I'm a Muslim. My family are, way back for hundreds of years, about as pure English as its possible to get (that is, part Celtic British, part Anglo-Saxon, part Scottish, part Viking and probably part some other things as well. Might even be Jewish in there, for all I know, and I'd be happy if there was).

wait till they govern - then there will be no sitting in Jewish lap. Vote!

Sir, I am sure Encyclopedia Britannica has an entry on the US - kindly read it.

You cannot prevent the birds from flying over your head, but you can prevent them from building nests in your hair. A bird does not chirp because it has an answer. It chirps because it wants to make a sound. The early bird gets the worm, but the wiser mouse gets the cheese. Her imagination resembles the wings of an ostrich. It enables her to run, though not to soar. A woman with a fixed idea is like an ostrich that tries to hatch a rock.

I read it. I guess you missed logic class. It is impossible under most circumstances to prove a negative. If Iran has a covert program it has been extraordinarily clever at concealing it so that there is absolutely no evidence of it's existence. If there is such a program, and it is so well concealed that there is no evidence of it's existence, then how can it be targeted? How can we attack something we can't find? 1. Remote Viewing? 2. Dowsing Rods? 3. Tarot Card Targeting System? 4. Buy a Treasure Map on E-Bay?

The U.S. has no business discussing Irans internal affairs with israel nor anyone else for that matter and neither is it israels business. Iran has no missile that can reach the U.S. so there is no threat. They are building a power plant which they have that right being a signatory to the Non-Proliforation Treaty. Under the treaty they can even build a bomb if they want to. The only reason low level emissaries will meet is because Americans now see their president sitting on the jewish lap with the israeli arm in the hole in his back moving his mouth. Yes, it is called a DUMMY sitting on the lap of a paranoid psychotic nation.

the US pathology. "all this is nothing more than a loser regime which has failed at home looking for foreign adventures and the creation of external enemies to shore up its posistion at home." Danite. Failed on crime, healthcare, poverty, shamocracy and social justice. How many external AND internal enemies has America found, (since the drive to the Pacific reached its goal) to compensate these ills?

There weren't 400 hostages. Actually 66. Only reason they weren't released sooner was because Ronald Raygun, his running mate G.Bush senior and William Casey of the CIA hatched a plan to supply the Iranians with weapons in return for their holding up the release of the hostages until the very day that Raygun was inaugurated as President. That was the Contras affair. Another pile of muck bought to you courtesy of Uncle Sam.

Sir, What Christian denomination do you belong to? Thank you

Well American in NY, Can you answer the following question what those a country with one of the largest reservoirs of oil needs Nuclear Power Plants ? do you really believe they are planning to use it for making electricity? If not, you have your answer right there (Nuclear Arms) Now will you answer the second Question do you trust the Iran Regime (not the Iranian people) that they won`t use it, or give it to someone that will use it preferably a terror organization like your favorite criminal Bin-Laden ? after all you guys are portrayed by the Radical Islam as the Big Satan ? and Bin-Laden is really pissed off by you! American in NY Sleep tight, Keep convincing yourself it won`t happen. That was what you said before 911 when the Israeli Intel told you that certain group of people that entered the USA are connected to a Terrorist group, well you didn`t do anything with that info, and what happened after everyone knows, two airplanes slamming into the twine towers!

Sir, I shared with you my opinion and I am grateful you let me to know yours. Generally I am at loss to understand why anybody would watch TV for news at all. I have no doubt that, say, musical, geographic, nature, etc BBC programs are superb.

Ruling from 247 B.C. to A.D. 228 in ancient Persia (Iran), the Parthians defeated Alexander the Great's successors, the Seleucids, conquered most of the ... www.parthia.com/

Incidently did you not on one occasion say you had Jewish relatives?- Kathy No I did not. .Dr.B lives in the U.S as citizen of that country,by the same token why should he not have deep feelings for his second home(and think before you speak)for heaven forfend if anything ontoward should happen to the Jews living in the diaspora,Israel will allways be their safe HAVEN,NO Anyone Jew or Arab can have deep feelings for their home. But if those feelings subordinate the interests of the country that they live in to the interests of a foreign country, then they can hardly be considered anything but a traitors. Many here live in America and put Israel first, just as Pollard did. I am only concerned about my country, America. Israel is not an American responsibility. In fact, as I have said before, Israel is a liability.

As you know since we have had some good exchanges in the past, some more scholarly than others but always with a respect for the other side or differences. And you have given me your maklubah recipe- which must prove to you I am authentically D. if there is any doubt. I do have to say that I don't remember your posts ever being so coarse in the past as they seem to be these days. Certainly you me and Ben-Gurion could agree on a lot though we had our differences. But now it's downright coarse dialogue-insulting all the way around. And I don't want to be a part of that. That is why I am not opening posts from certain posters anymore on these talkbacks. I know what to expect and I am not a masochist. In the US here folks who are not considered "far left" were not so far left several years ago. People like me feel that everyone has moved farther to the right and left us where we always were. So it's perceptions. Finally I have always criticized Israel because I feel it was within Israel’s power to be at a better place than we are now. That is not to say that the Palestinians have not missed their chances. But my criticism is “self-criticism” and about who I identify with coming from where I come from. My concern is with Israel’s survival in a rough neighborhood. As Meshal seems to be saying- another intifada could happen and disrupt the good life such as it is even with security supposedly everywhere. So let Arabs and Palestinian Arabs epsecially criticize themselves.. they have plenty too. Best Wishes. D.

So Israel's troops occupied the Sinai in a pre-emptive war. She never owned an inch of the Sinai. It was never anything else but Egypt. She forced possession of Gaza from Egypt in a peace treaty then gave it up to the Gazans. Jordan trying to buy land in Palestine - following The Jerusalem Conference's policy. Gave back land to Lebanon which she never owned. Kept the Shaba Farms which she never owned. Kept the Golan Heights which she took by force. Continues to grab land in Palestine which is not hers. There is only one Israel, true, and it lies back there behind the lines established by the UN in 1948. Till Israel retires to her own lands, don't expect us to ooo and awe over Israel's generosity.

The issue is compliance with the NTP, of which Iran is a signatory. Violation of the NTP, as determined by the IAEA , and as reported to the SC, is what has brought on the regime of sanctions against Iran. Your juvenile notion that possession of nuclear weapons is some natural right that nations possess, is belied by the facts of international treaty relations. The international community deems it desirable to limit nuclear proliferation. Lybia gave up its nuclear weapons program to avoid sanctions and resume its place in the international community. North Korea seems to be following on the same path. Iran has not only violated the NTP, but its terror exporting regime could never be trusted with nuclear weapons. The power of the United States stems essentially from its highly sophisticated conventional weapon systems, of which there are too many to name. It is this assortment of weapons systems, and the ability to keep ahead in this field, that makes the United States so powerful.

WE HAVE THE "SAMPSON OPTION"GET IT?-Kathy # 164 When you say ?WE?, can WE here in America assume that you are Israeli?

~ the 2nd world war.Still,if it weren`t for the Americans you`d be in deep shit,and you know it.get yourself an education rather than preaching to me about the historical narrative- Kathy Kathy, You are way off base here. If it hadn?t been for Britain, America would have been in deep shit. If it weren?t for Britain holding out as long as it did, it is very likely that we might be speaking German here in America today and many more Jews would have perished. England didn?t finish repaying Lend-Lease until December of 2006. Israel has never repaid anything. England was an Ally in the sense that they contributed to the security of America. Israel on the other hand is a military, political, and financial liability to America. And in the last 40 years, Israel?s oppression and atrocities in the occupied territories has become a moral embarrassment to America.

Who's blaming Israel for the perfidies of Iran? I blame Israel's government for her own perfidies: conquering land, filling it with settlers, grabbing more land, killing Palestinians indiscriminantly, and trying to get the USA to go to war on her behalf. "Lets You and Him Fight" is the name of the game. I am for people: Israel's people, Palestine's people. Lebanon's people, Iran's people. As long as she pushes war as the only solution, your government is the enemy of your people, and as bad as those idiots in Teheran. I will celebrate with you when you push those expansionists out and replace them with some true statesmen and diplomats.

I don't understand how a weapon you cannot use works without suffering dire consequences. Again the force necessary for Israel was and is conventional- which can be actually used. Be that as it may…….. You are using the past tense and the present tense interchangeably. What was is no longer. Syria is not moving on Haifa. Even if it were I can’t imagine that Israel would drop a nuclear bomb. I see no threat presently not at least in part of Israel’s own making and none outside it’s ability to deal with conventionally preferably diplomatically. And I don't count verbal threats or imagined threats- I mean REAL threats. Now Iran on the other hand has a lot of reason to fear not only Israel, more awesomely the US and the US on behalf of or in concert with Israel. There has been a constant stream of chatter about attacking Iran and a rejection of offers to talk on the part of the US until conditions are met which means “we ain’t talking to ya”. My understanding is that Iran does not have the wherewithal to defend itself conventionally either… not against WW3 coming down on it, “shock and awe”-like. GWBush has actually said – with regard to Iran- “all options are on the table” to a question regarding the use of nuclear weapons against Iran. So whose ears was this for? Bush, as Commander in Chief has the ability to make the threat more than words. Congress won’t stop him either until it’s way too late if at all. He’s done it already in Iraq. So if I were Iran’s leaders or even an Iranian who does not hate the US or Israel, I might think of the nuclear option in desperation for sheer survival. Do you see what I mean about pushing Iran in the direction we don’t want it to go and causing them to use whatever card they can? It makes it worse to treat them as “losers”. It’s like asking for a punch in the nose. And they can do harm in a lot of little ways. (It has been discussed but I’ll add that they are entitled to nuclear power).

I don't understand how a weapon you cannot use works without suffering dire consequences. Again the force necessary for Israel was and is conventional- which can be actually used. Be that as it may…….. You are using the past tense and the present tense interchangeably. What was is no longer. Syria is not moving on Haifa. Even if it were I can’t imagine that Israel would drop a nuclear bomb. I see no threat presently not at least in part of Israel’s own making and none outside it’s ability to deal with conventionally preferably diplomatically. And I don't count verbal threats or imagined threats- I mean REAL threats. Now Iran on the other hand has a lot of reason to fear not only Israel, more awesomely the US and the US on behalf of or in concert with Israel. There has been a constant stream of chatter about attacking Iran and a rejection of offers to talk on the part of the US until conditions are met which means “we ain’t talking to ya”. My understanding is that Iran does not have the wherewithal to defend itself conventionally either… not against WW3 coming down on it, “shock and awe”-like. GWBush has actually said – with regard to Iran- “all options are on the table” to a question regarding the use of nuclear weapons against Iran. So whose ears was this for? Bush, as Commander in Chief has the ability to make the threat more than words. Congress won’t stop him either until it’s way too late if at all. He’s done it already in Iraq. So if I were Iran’s leaders or even an Iranian who does not hate the US or Israel, I might think of the nuclear option in desperation for sheer survival. Do you see what I mean about pushing Iran in the direction we don’t want it to go and causing them to use whatever card they can? It makes it worse to treat them as “losers”. It’s like asking for a punch in the nose. And they can do harm in a lot of little ways. (It has been discussed but I’ll add that they are entitled to nuclear power).

The heavy water reactor is not for medical use. The IAEA is not interested in medicine, but in nuclear proliferation. Nor would Iran deny access to anything but nuclear reactors. For the rest, I refer you to post #165. You are making a fool of yourself, and not for the first time, either.

Iran is NOT our enemy?? Over 400 American hostages during Carter`s administration and held for over a year until Reagan came to office, is for one. They export terror to kill our soldiers in Iraq. I don`t know what kind of patriot you are, but serving in the USAF during Nam, we might call you a Hooch-pooch.- The Equalizer You have a reading problem. I said that Iran is not a threat to America. They do not have a nuclear weapon or the delivery system. BTW, also ex Air force. I am not loyal to Israel, as you appear to be. Nor am I loyal to any other country.

Sixteen US intelligence agencies took a year to produce the NIE (undoubtedly with some Israeli "intelligence" input) - does any rational person believe that the US will "take it back" and make a 180 degree turn to support Israel`s bleating? I know that the propaganda must continue that Iran is an "existential threat" to support the never-ending theme of "Israel as victim", but you`re beating a dead horse here to try to push this bullsh*t.

All of this talk in the media of Iranianukes is brainwashing to set the stage for an eventual takeover of more oil resources. Check the Haifa-Kirkuk pipeline. If Iran gets a nuke it will be for self-defense of its oil resources. Iranian threats to the US or Israel is suicide, both of which have nukes. Iraq provides a western front, and Afganistan the eastern front, but if the US and Israel try to engage Iran in a conventional war, most likely the outcome will be long and protracted, just as in Iraq and the Afgan, although the US did not anticipate this...all because intel was manipulated for a political/economic goal. So the argument goes, now we are in there and can't get out...but that was the plan all along, just as the years of sanctions softened up Iraq for invasion. Iraq dumped the dollar, and now Iran may do the same. The dollar is no longer a profitable medium of trade, thanks to our irresponsible Federal Reserve. The cost is shifted upon the Middle American Taxpayer.

One of the less pleasant things about this forum is the visage of Ahamanejad at the top of the article. From reading (albeit in translation) his comments for some time, I suspect that he to is as ignorant of the physics of nuclear power and weapons, and of the industrial needs of both, as many here. It is that time of year when older kids tell younger ones that there is no Santa Claus. I was the kind of kid who invented a test to see if Santa actually visited. . . But no one is going to start a war over Santa Claus. So there is no need to debunk that myth. The myth of the Iranian bomb program has been pretty well debunked by the diligent and thankless work of the IAEA. Those who can't imagine that mommy and daddy leave the presents under the tree, will continue to hew to the Santa Myth. But they cannot make any sound arguments based upon evidence supporting the Santa Theory of Christmas.

resorting to name calling as they lose the plot and the arguement. There is going to be no bang bang in Iran unless Israel decides to commit suicide and does it herself. All the name calling temper tantrums and throwing rattles out of the pram is not going to change that simple undeniable fact. Live with it, or do something about it, but for gawds sake don't blame people posting on Haaretz for a decision made by the President of the United States of America who decided that 16 Intelligence Agencies paid for by American taxpayer that Iran is no longer actively pursuing nuclear weapons technology.

Some nasty guy who has a sound knowledge of atomic weapons and atomic weapons programs has taken Danite's security blankie away. Go sulk Danite. Meanwhile, in the real world, Canada was involved in the Manhattan Project as it had been in the British "Tube Alloys" project. Since Canada is the largest producer of Heavy Water, has many reactors and then must be hell-bent upon building a bomb and conquering the world, then I guess we had better bomb you guys quick. Danite, why don't you run up and down the streets screaming "The Fenians are coming! The Fenians are coming!"

Danite hello I sent a response to the both of them combined thus:Two little "misogynists"walking hand in hand through the "nuclear fallout" and the radio active emanating from under their feet singing:HalleluYAH! HER WE GO,HO,HO,HO... Well,it was something like this,if not better,but suitable after last night Mark's disgusting performance against our dear Cipora. No change in him I see.I thought he'd apologize for his foul language if nothing else. Not,a dicky bird and the two of them are still going around laughinG and giggling at their performance as a big joke and persisting with their immoral behaviour. Hey,liked the title you gave Mark.Very appropos. Regards

Gil, how many right-wingers are there currently living in Israel...??? I would assume at least 3'000'000. So if you are only insisting that we take the "smart ones", we would alraedy be down to a number of about 2'000'000, right...??? But you know what, I really think that isn't necessary at all. You (Israelis) should stay were you are. Israel is your home. Period. Just separate from the West Bank Palestinians and things should be all right. Don't worry about the Arab-Israelis, they won't overtake you that quickly. I just can't believe that the Israeli ladies.... ...you know, the "size-thing".... No way....:)

The Equalizer Allways a pleasure to read your posts that are sensible and to the point.And for that I derive great satisfaction with pleasure. ANY must be dreaming if he thinks Iran under Ahmed and the mullahs are not dangerous to Israel.Ahmed has made it quite clear what his intentions are. The mere mention of Carter is so horrifying in what he tried and failed so dismally,and what we are having to deal with now thanks to that inept and worse President Ameriaca had the misfortune to have during his tenure. When I think he got his Nobel Prize makes me laugh,because it was such a wasted accolade.. Good post thank you

If you don't watch it how can you possibly have an opinion about it SFB

the US pathology. "all this is nothing more than a loser regime which has failed at home looking for foreign adventures and the creation of external enemies to shore up its posistion at home." Danite. Failed on crime, healthcare, poverty, shamocracy and social justice. How many external AND internal enemies has America found, (since the drive to the Pacific reached its goal) to compensate these ills?

Mike, the first atomic weapon was used 62 years ago. The program developed concepts ALREADY public knowledge before WW II. The only major combatants who did not have atomic programs of some sort during the war were Italy and China. The Americans, British, Japanese and Russians all investigated the idea of an atomic bomb. Germany concentrated upon power production and the potential of radiological weapons. The monetary and industrial effort needed to develop the capacity to produce militarily significant numbers of weapons within the probable length of the war was immense, and in keeping with the belief of Americans at the time that the government was responsible to it's citizens - and as a hedge against failure - the Manhattan Engineering District had Henry Smyth write an Official Report entitled "Atomic Energy for Military Purposes." It is a road map to a bomb. Every nation which has set out to produce a bomb produced a workable item on their first try. Got it?

Or possibly just unthinking reflexive responses. When I hear about the 'Left Wing anti-semitic BBC', I tend to categorise such name calling in either of those two brackets. Being unfortunate enough as I have, to have experienced the often sycophantic and fascile CNN and FOX news stations, with their slavish devotion to establishment views, or somewhere to the political 'right' of them, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you should view the BBC in such vein. To try and dilute your understandable,(under your circumstances) prejudices, consider that 'real' Left Wingers like John Pilger(Aussie) and Mark Curtis(UK) frequently lambaste the BBC for exactly the opposite reasons that you do so! Also consider that UK Muslims have a similarly jaundiced view of the BBC's anti Muslim and Pro Israel bias and perhaps you'll understand why we are indeed fortunate to possess such a gem as the Beeb, untainted as it is by pure commercial interest. (another mystery to unreconstructed Americans is of course, why anyone would want anything to be untainted by commercial interest or profit motive)

ANY hello As I said above,he is not the only one. What about the Canadians?Oh I know you will say they are not Americans,BUT!what's the difference? North Americans both,right? Let us not be picky by the 'bull(guess who I mean).Will not go any further for good reason. Daybreak was very polite in pointing out the error of its ways,and rightly so.No splitting hairs here please ANY. Incidently did you not on one occasion say you had Jewish relatives?. In brief,don't be so dogmatic.Dr.B lives in the U.S as citizen of that country,by the same token why should he not have deep feelings for his second home(and think before you speak)for heaven forfend if anything ontoward should happen to the Jews living in the diaspora,Israel will allways be their safe HAVEN,NO? A bit of compassion and understanding is the order of the day...

Danite hello I did like the badbingbadaBOOM,Iran is trying with its scare tactics that we can either dismiss,or take it seriously,but with caution. When you said to Dorothy(They are not the victims but,the aggressors).Unfortunately the Dorothy of old,has changed and has become too radicalized.(sorry Dorothy)I think I am right,and the culprit is Tosefta. Danite,sorry for butting in,but!did you notice her long missives?do they not resemble Tossies?I wanted to read hers,but no sooner I sow how long it was I did not venture.Granted I do it sometimes,and one is out now.But,it is only on a rare occasion and not allways.It is too time consuming and at the end one is left high and dry. Must away,Shabat Shalom

Sir, Of course you quotation of silly pronouncement by silly officials is not necessary representative of the US. You statement "America surely craves an enemy" could be easily made by one of them. Notwithstanding the above I feel BBC is partial, leftist, anti-semitic, condescending and pretentious institution - indeed so revolting that I switch stations every time I bump into it. ps. Do you remember their behavior when Hamas peacenicks snatched that little shrimp Johnson?

Over 400 American hostages during Carter's administration and held for over a year until Reagan came to office, is for one. They export terror to kill our soldiers in Iraq. I don't know what kind of patriot you are, but serving in the USAF during Nam, we might call you a Hooch-pooch.

Michael If Britain is not as yet an Islamofascis country,it sure is on the way in becoming one unless the powers that be stop it in its tracks. You now have at least 2 million Muslims living among you and are forever demanding more and more accommodation in their ?sharia laws?etc etc. The police are ever vigilant and catching would be terrorists on a daily basis. Or are you not aware of this fact. This is not a new phenomenon just in the U.K. Whereever Muslims live they try to change the constitution to their views in their adopted country. Unheard of several decades ago. I did ask you if you were a Muslim/Arab.You evaded the question,methinks you are hiding something. If I err, then apologies are in order. On the subject of Britain being dragged by the U.S:You know it was accepted by the many countries which went under the ?umbrealla? of the "coalition of the willing" Tony Blair sure as hell didn't flinch and followed George Bush with much fervour. And I know he was called Bush?s poodle(remember?) No leader of any country has to be draggged into joining the fight against the terrorists.In Iraq,and Afghanistan. They all did it freely,and I need not enumerate said countries. Your concern of the US a country you so admire is touching.But I understand and to a degree agree with you. Pres?Bush went it but no plans were prepared for after the event. However,why not blame the damn Arabs?They kill each other daily no matter where they are.It is in their nature.They love death and seems hate LIFE! And please no excuses about what I just said.It is their mentality. Until they decide to come forward to the 21st century rather than revert to the 7th they will continue to stagnate.The only thing they have at present is the oil.When that dries up,they will return to their nomadic way of life (tents and camels).Not in your lifetime,and not in mine.But ultimately it will happen. The latest Saudi meddling proves how shaky their status has become.Just think, making buddies with a fundamental Shiite of Iran versus fundamental Wahhabists/Sunni? Wow to you there,what say you to that. You brought Iran in the equation, know it is the subject we are discussing,but unless something is pursued to deter Ahmed(the mad) sanctions will be applied by even harsher measure soon. The man is a megalomaniac and has to be stopped .. Now Michael shall we be friends and agree to disagree? Kathy

Hi Marky I mean farty, you have claimed that the israeli right are "Nazi equivalents" and that the Wall Street Journal is a "Neo Nazi newspaper" (your words).yet you expect us to take you seriously is that it? You are lost to reality buddy.No wonder only Tosefta is willing to exploit of your delusions for his ego mogering agenda.he laughs at you , dont you get it??

the british Broadcasting Company" C.F

You knwo dorothy if every country used some vague threats as a reason for nuclear arms well we would be in a pickle wouldnt we.The trump card of nuclear weapons for israel was that it created mustually ensured destruction in the case the arabs overran israel.If so the Arabs would no doubt commit mass genocide and rapine on the Jews.This is not the level of threat iran faces at all. One cannot ignore the internal motivations of the regime and their need to for legitimacy as an evasion form their domestic failures.yes dorothy all this is nothing more than a loser regime which has failed at home looking for foreign adventures and the creation of external enemies to shore up its posistion at home. Regards

yes cipora , many on the deranged left support the pals and the arabs in general as their is a deep underlying hatred of america that they try to express by blind support of any western movement.Israel being the main supporter of the US is of course a prime target.Once the Pals have a state the Pals will see that most of their big friends were only using them for their other agendas.Shabat shalom and keep up the good work with Fart Lincoln and Tosefta the ghetto dweller.

You advise Dr. Brnd to pack up his bags and move to Israel, apparently because he is not a real-enough American for you. Many times in my life, I`ve heard white Americans suggest that black Americans should just move back to Africa (I can assure you that these white Americans do not consider blacks real Americans either). I`m sure you don`t appreciate it. Nor do I appreciate it when some American whites speak this way. It is called racism. It is abhorrent. It is not called racism it is called patriotism. Doktor Brnd exhibits concern and support for Israel, at the expense of America. All of his posts are imply if not openly attempt to tie America and Israel as one. We are not. We do not have the same interests or values. Jews and Arabs are Middle Eastern people, with different customs and social traditions, but similar otherwise. Our strategic interests are not the same. Iran is not a threat to America. Doktor Brnd is more like Pollard as an American!

remember Nevada is also part of the US; Israel is not! And also, Doktor Brnd the reason our troops didn?t face a NUCLEAR war was because Israel had destroyed Iraq?s plutonium breeder reactor 10 years earlier. ? Doktor Brnd That is BS. It is a fantasy that many people would like to believe. It is not credible that America needs Israel to take military action on its behalf. Whatever Israel did, it did because it suited her interest. To later claim that it was done to benefit America is bunk. generally, Israeli intel has been more accurate than our own, -Doktor Brnd Israeli Intel cannot be trusted as Israel interest is to manipulate America. Americans do not forget it was Saudis who staged the 911 attacks, that Arabs threw candy and cheered when they saw it on TV. Doktor Brnd Don?t forget that it was the Jews that attacked the USS liberty and murdered American sailors and Pollard is just one of many. America knows what side Israel is on-Doktor Brnd Yes, Israel is on the side of Israel. Israel is a political, military, and financial liability. It is a moral embarrassment to America.

My post was in response to Poster 17. So what, now, do you run Haaretz? You always have the option of not reading and responding to the mail of others you know. Your post makes no sense. The presence of blacks in America was not extended by the invitation of anyone except the whites who needed workers to work to build it. If you are talking about Africans who sold some slaves, yes, they were worms. Has nothing to do with any "invitation" by them, just as Zionists supported Nazis and many were involved in the needless deaths of European Jews by lobbying countries to deny them entry for the sake of getting to Palestine. BTW, Haaretz is touting a video called "Farewell Israel". A Jewish poster told me the title is misleading and the video excellent. It is. No politics just plain old unadulterated history, which is why Haaretz was touting it, I guess. If you get an opportunity to get it, you will be enlightened. "Nobody cares anymore", that sums up Israel's demise.

"Gil, believe me, size is not the most important thing in life (just ask the ladies here....:)." Dino

The trump card for israel was this.As the syrian forces break through and move on haifa israel tells them if we go you go, badabingbadaBOOM.Iran is inventing threats, israel had to live them.Every country has threats like iran claims, that is not a reason for them to scare the whole world with their parnoid ego mongering.It is not the same dorothy, not the same at all.You cannot ignore the nature of the regime and the INTERNAL reasons they are bucking for nuclear power.it was them that conflated the issue with aggressive statements about israel.They are the ones usuing what should be a normal issue for political ends.They are not the victims dororthy , they are the aggressors.And yes the regime is a loser regime acting like losers always do.Regards

When I talk about Iran deciding at the highest level to become a "nuclear power" I mean, of course, deciding to acquire the nuclear enrichment and reprocessing technology to produce electricity. This Iran is perfectly entitled to do.

Well, if you were on the threads more often, you would have known that Paul Harris hauled arse on the 1st El-Al to Belfast and changed his name to Victor Hardman, courtesy of dual passports Zionists are fond of. If you were in tune with US voters, you would find that they oppose the Iraq war, now know it was based on lies and that we wasted 4,000 lives for naught. If you knew any history, you would know the US overthrew the democratically elected leader of Iran and installed our pimp, the Shah. Since the US now admits Iraq was a mistake, they accuse everybody of killing our men and women; truth is that is an excuse. Further, the US has overthrown more govts and funded more counter insurgencies than any other country. What's this taxpayer stuff? I pay taxes and don't get anything back. It all goes to the taxpayer ninny funding the Zionists over there and they have a lock on the nipple for 10 years, courtesy of their last begging trip to the US Congress. No trailers in Vegas!

Despite your long hiatus from Haaretz, your status is still the same, confused. Perhaps another vacation is warranted. Poor Cipora, what a hoot, Kath returning her mail. Have tea.

Try to remember why the Iranians hate the US---they overthrew their democratically elected government and installed our favorite pimp, the Shah. Try to read and understand how many govt's the US has toppled while installing various assortments of pimps, dictators and other usual suspect types. Over in the ME, the US/Israel supports anybody who lets them get at the oil. It didn't give a hoot about the few Kuwaitis who live there, they care about oil, which is why Israel/US want to get to Iran, the pearl of the ME. As for the 9/11 attacks, well serious questions about that have been raised. If they were responsible, why did the US fly the Bin Ladens out on a jumbo jet the next day when nobody else could fly? It sure hasn't upset Bush's love for the Saudis, why is that? Put on your thinking cap. Dubya doesn't give a wit about Israel; he cares about oil. If he has a choice between Saudi oil turnoff or dropping Zionists at the curb, what do you think he will choose? Regards.

Don't watch it then. It is afterall the british Broadcasting Company

...in american parlance, anyone left of Atilla the Hun is basically a marxist. I realised just how poisoned are many American minds to anything even vaguely resembling socialism when I observed some typical responses from various Senators and Congressmen and members of the public regards Universal healthcare. "Socialised medicine"! They screeched to the cameras. "The thin edge of the wedge", came the protest. "Communists would be running American healthcare system", said another. Truly bizarre behavior. America surely craves an enemy.

Swiss (Dino) Your sexual beliefs and so called experience, don`t interest me! As for what you think will make us the ?our own boss? It doesn`t take a genius to understand that even if we separate from the So-called Palestinians, we will still have a Arab population in Israel that in a decade or two equalize to the Jewish population, what then and if they go and do an Intifada (remember the year 2000), will you tell us to get out of Haifa, Acre, and Jaffa, and make more Compromise, what then Dino? So Swiss (Dino) you see our future is grim even if we make a Compromise, Or do you mean Transfer when you say Compromise? If yes, the Israeli left won`t let it happen! So How about reconsidering hosting 5,000,000 SMART Israelis, as you say size doesn`t matter, so how about giving us the Alps, so we can wait for Global Warming to progress and Drown the whole situation!

I doubt they are the same person - rather they are two boorish clowns who feed each others adolescent egos.

If the posters here are representative of Israel then as an American I can only think that Israel as a country is trying to draw America into a war it has no reason starting just for the sake of your country. If you think you are so big and bad and so justified in your belligerence then start your own war. Surely, Israel's existence is important enough to risk further pariah status on the international. Surely, Israel's military is up to the task. Except that no one believes that drivel, not even Israelis. If they did the war would have started long ago. It hasn't... the reason is obvious. Israel is not strong enough, it can't fabricate a good enough justification... and it is definitely not afraid of annihalation... it is afraid of losing its hegemonic status in the Middle East, and the only way to regain it is to trick America into wasting more lives and money for the sake of Israeli belligerence.

again we agree!one more thing,the "invitation" to america you speak of,was extended by your own people,so give it a rest,nobody cares anymore.weve heard all that bs before!

forums to stick your big ole nose in others business?that a laugh,girlfriend!

they just get their stooges to do it for them,ole buddy!you know,like they have in iraq,resulting in hundreds,if not thousands of american soldiers,deaths.of course,you could give a shit less about that as long as you can blast israel at will.whats the deal with paul harris and a trailer?if the truth was known,you would still be in yours if not for the american tax payer!

Dino You say willing to have 50,000 out of 5,000,000 Israelis So what about the 4,950,000 Israelis ??? Where? What? How? [:{]

"The decision to become a nuclear power has been taken at the highest level and no amount of toothless threats will change it." So now we see that you also don't believe the 16 US agencies report, but you expect everyone else, including Israel, to take it as gospel. "The decision to become a Nuclear power has been taken at the highest level". Clickfool IF that is the case, why are you opposed to sanctions.

Thank you for your clear-headed unemotional analysis. A lot of what you say makes sense. My main disagreement I guess would be in reading Iran's intentions. A lot of people take it for granted that Iran would like to see Israel disappear and is therefore working towards nuclear weapons to make that a reality. I am sure Iran would like to see Israel disappear. The same, however, was true of Kruschev, Brezhnev and the west. They wanted the west to disappear, but they were not prepared to make it disappear by outright war and their arms build up was as much defensive as offensive. To me the situation with Iran looks very similar. They will use proxy guerilla wars, but outright war and certainly outright nuclear war are not an option. I may be wrong, but then we face so many risks today, including global warming, and we cannot panic about every risk. Certainly, the risks involved in a US attack on Iran are real and much more immediate - war from the Med to China and lack of oil.

When will the Israelis realise that after the end of the cold war and the invasion of Iraq. The geopolitical centre of the middle east has shifted from the eastern Meditteranean to the Northern Gulf? In other words Israel is no longer of any use to the United States in countering the percieved threat from Russia to the oil supplies of the Middle East. The buffer is now Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and shortly regardless of the current regime Iran. That is why America is supporting repproachment between Saudi and Iran. As for Israel there will be continued military aid for a while, but essentially what you are seeing is the decline in the importance of the Israeli American partnership. Israel will be safe enough once there is a two state solution. I suppose one day the penny will drop even amongst the others. The jig is up no greater Israel I'm afraid.

"The IAEA ... can find no evidence of a nuclear weapons program." Mark Lincoln "the agency was not "in a position to conclude that there are no undeclared nuclear materials or activities in Iran," the report added." Director General Mohamed ElBaradei

Regarding my "attempt to change the subject" that would have to include many others on this page. But I don’t think I am changing the subject. Israel’s hypocracy (or need to be an exception) is the first thing that pops into the mind of those who are trying to be fair and deal with reality. How can Israel or the US demand of Iran compliance or agreement? Through force? Sanctions may or may not work. Probably they will not without dialogue. The US hegemony in the region is an increasing threat to stability. The US threat of “regime change” in Iran in the air these last several years, refusing to talk, refusing to agree formally to refrain from that, all the talk in Israel about doing something about Iran. All this plays a roll in Iran making a case that it needs protection or deterrence. Iran is pushing back with it’s insistence that it has a right to nuclear technology. Iran pushes back at Israel, the US and the West through it’s support of terrorist groups. The issue is nuclear weaponry in it’s entirety not just Iran’s attempt. The issue is also hegemony. And for Israel the day when having secret nuclear weapons as some sort of "trump card" and Danite put it, is coming to a quick close. Every day wasted thinking that superior power/force will ensure survival is another day lost to missile development and the achievement of nuclear ambitions and empowering terrorists. A question: If all those who have nuclear weapons programs, I’ll include the US and Russia and all the others in the expanding once small club, refuse to disarm themselves but PLACE VALUE instead on having nukes and even use them subtly or not so subtly to threaten and ( I say ) thereby ( also) terrorize the others- do you think that this discourages or encourages proliferation?

It is amusing, now that the whole fraudulent 'crisis' has imploded, how many little children on these forums are clinging to their security blankets and refuse to grow up. There is no evidence of an Iranian nuclear weapons program. There is a very sound reason WHY the US and Israel refuse supply any evidence of such a program. There is no evidence. The IAEA which has been working in the facilities, laboratories, plants and archives in Iran for DECADES (going back before the revolution) and which has huge amounts of evidence, can find no evidence of a nuclear weapons program. Whom do you trust? Men and women known to have lied about WMD in the past to start wars, or men and women who have been patiently accumulating the truth for years? The children of this forum whine "I want my blankie", and cling to it. The adults know that the magic of the blanket is in the children's heads, not reality.

"The marxists not only hate Israel, but they support all enemies of the US. You are the one who had explained this to me, and it is a lesson I have carefully internalised." Cipora to Danite. You have been misled by Danite on the subject of Marxism and anti-Americanism. Most people in Western Europe and even a substantial number in the US are anti-Americans when it comes to their foreign policy. Perhaps Danite can give you an explanation as to this phenomenon, seeing as practically none of the aforementioned are Marxists or even Lefties! Only this week we in the UK were witness to the Americans deliberate avoidance of Iranian offers to negotiate back in 2003. On Newsnight BBC,(Marxist anti-semite TVstation) this very week, UK people have again heard for themselves, former American diplomats testifying to the offer that was made and assessing that it was both serious and well intentioned only to have the been aghast at the instant dismissal by the White House in regard to offering any positive response. On the contrary their response was totally dismissive. Probably because they were still drunk with the illusion of success in what was appeared as a simple victory in Iraq! This is what makes the West so full of disdain for American manners and methods abroad. Not Marxist tendencies. Such are the dangers of believing simplistic and comforting views, (Danite's) that you were predisposed to in any case. You end up with a distorted view. Which in turn leads to distorted remedies.

Why be intimidated by people with education and strong views? If you are unable to engage in debate or think for yourself, invent an alias and make snide comments, then disappear without having to defend the comments. Bye for now, feeble minded cretin.

"You are not doing justice to Cipora, Mark. Cipora simply lacks understanding of worldly matters. Physics is just part of the picture." - Tosefta It seems that a large majority on these forums lacks even a Jr. High School level of understanding of Physics. "Not understanding basic politics is a lot worse for an Earthling." - Tosefta A common property of ideologues. "The funny part is when such an "out of this world" character comes to believe that s/he can give advice to normal people." - Tosefta They bask in what the Fire Sign Theater called "the clear white light of stupidity."

"Cipora, there is NO ONE in ANY nation who wants to who does not have the knowledge to make a bomb." Mark, Knowledge is a synonym for Know How; many people use it as such. Most intelligent people can discern context and understand this. Know How implies some technical skill or ability that comes about as a result of training or experience.

"What do you have in mind, Clive, now that America won`t oblige Israel?" I am not a policy maker, nor is it really my problem (although I do have symapthy for their concerns). I certainly don't blame them for trying their best to protect themselves.

"Mark, try explaining to Cipora the difference between a large power plant and a small research reactor which is in possession by many countries" - Tosefta I could try to explain WHY each type of reactor exists, but this would involve some digression to Jr. High School science concepts. The Power reactor is designed to produce HEAT for generating power, but due to it's moderator is a poor means of producing weapons grade Plutonium. The small heavy-water reactor is designed to produce NEUTRONS for creating isotopes for industrial, medical and scientific uses. It is ideal for producing weapons grade Plutonium, but only if the fuel is changed frequently (before too much Pu-240 and Pu-241 are produced). The easiest method of extracting the Plutonium would be the classic "Purex" process. It is not easy to do on a large scale, and can be detected easily from many miles away as well as requiring a serious industrial plant.

"There will be additional sanctions, as has been announced" This is pure political theatre, as well you know, Cipora. As long as the world needs Iran's main export, sanctions will have no effect at all. The decision to become a nuclear power has been taken at the highest level and no amount of toothless threats will change it. With the military threat off the agenda it's all show, no blow.

Mark, the US claims information that is not consistent with energy/energy production but with a military program. It probably is not consistent with the number of "3" people involved. This might have been true for the enrichment/civilian program. I believe among the drawings in the laptop computer was a design for a nuclear warhead, as well as a design for a tunnel/hole to be used to test a nuclear explosion. This is military, and would have required more than 3 people to work on. Of course, it could be that the computer content was bought by Iran, etc. It is fair enough to demand that all should be explained to the IAEA. P.S. I would not blame Iran for doing this, given that they were facing a Saddam interested in nuclear weapons. If they stopped it in 2003, the sin should be forgotten. Not worse than Pakistan.

IF Israel wanted to go to war with Iran they would have done so loooong ago. IF war with Iran DOES happen, Israel will NOT be the country to cease existence. They have proven this numerous times, in other wars where enemies promised they would destroy Israel. Pleas DO tell me the difference NOW, that would cause Israel to cease to exist! LOL

So, to summarize the options 1. Deal with Iran NOW, before she has nukes. 2. Wait a couple years, until Iran REALLY starts rattling the war drums AND becomes more overt in her actions, rather than covert 3. Wait even longer until Iran is the major power in the Middle East and uses that strength to control oil flow in and out of the gulf. I suspect we'll wait 24 years. Unfortunately, by then, Iran will have operable nuclear weapons. h well. They won't have many then, AND, when they send their nukes towards Israel, Israel will shoot them down. The only issue will be the scattering of radiation over Jordan, and, perhaps, Syria, depending on the route the missiles take. Israel will stop them before they reach Israeli skies. Interestingly, IF any fallout resulted from the missile attacks, much of it would flow right back toward Iran. Oh well. Mark-

Regarding my "attempt to change the subject" that would have to include many others on this page. But I don’t think I am changing the subject. Israel’s hypocracy (or need to be an exception) first thing that pops into the mind of those who are trying to be fair and deal with reality. How can Israel or the US demand of Iran compliance or agreement? Through force? Sanctions may or may not work. Probably not without dialogue. US hegemony in the region an increasing threat along with the US threat of “regime change” in the air these last several years plays a big roll. ( The US has made things worse for Israel. ) Iran is pushing back. What do you know? No surprise! If you have had kids- your know the response, your know the ultimate result. The issue is nuclear weaponry in it’s entirety. The issue is hegemony. And for Israel the day when having secret nuclear weapons as some sort of "trump card" is coming to a quick close. Every day wasted thinking that superior power/force will ensure survival is another day lost to missile development and the achievement of nuclear ambitions as well as empowering terrorists. Let me ask you a question: If all those who have nuclear weapons programs, I’ll include the US and Russia and all the others in the expanding once small club, refuse to disarm themselves but PLACE VALUE instead on having nukes and even use them subtly or not so to threaten and ( I say) terrorize the others- do you think that this discourages or encourages proliferation?

Michael, I doubt Israel will attack Iran on it's own. However, war with Iran is almost inevitable. Whether it happens soon, 2-4 years from now, or a decade on is the issue. As Iran rapidly grows it's domestic military infrastructure the longer we wait, the harder te war will be, and the greater the chance of the war turning nuclear. This is Israel's main contention. Sadly, because Israel is Iran's greatest perceived enemy, Israel is target #1 for Iran, so they will be the first target. Indeed, Israel is already Iran's main target, but n a low grade guerilla war, as the best means of hitting Israel. Iran learned this from Vietnam and the US experience there, of course. Iran knows, that, currrently, Israel would win a conventional war. That is why Iran is pursing less conventional strategies (guerilla wars, and non conventional weapons). Israel knows what Iran is capable of NOW, AND Israel knows what Iran is working toward/developing. Israel would not exist today if she didn't know

"2 Iran continues to build a heave water reactor at Azark, even though Russia is building for Iran a light water reactor at Bhusher. The heavy water reactor will enable Iran to produce weapons grade plutonium." - Cipora This is a gem, Cipora from Outerspace. And not only the idea that if there is a power plant in Bushehr which will produce 1000MWt of electricity, then there is no need for a 40 Mwt plant in Arak to produce medical isotopes. You also don't understand how the Plutonium that is generated can be extracted, which is impossible with IAEA even extrememely rarely paying a visit. The IAEA visited Arak this year. The difficulties between Iran and IAEA nowadays are due to the sanctions, and countermeasures imposed by Iran. Somebody who lacks any understanding of the reality surrounding these issues should not present herself as a Clown for all to laugh at. Mark Lincoln is more sensitive to technical ignorance; I know who I am dealing with. Better find some abstract subject to c

"The marxists not only hate Israel, but they support all enemies of the US. You are the one who had explained this to me, and it is a lesson I have carefully internalised." Cipora to Danite. You have been misled by Danite on the subject of Marxism and anti-Americanism. Most people in Western Europe and even a substantial number in the US are anti-Americans when it comes to their foreign policy. Perhaps Danite can give you an explanation as to this phenomenon, seeing as practically none of the aforementioned are Marxists or even Lefties! Only this week we in the UK were witness to the Americans deliberate avoidance of Iranian offers to negotiate back in 2003. On Newsnight BBC,(Marxist anti-semite TVstation) this very week, UK people have again heard for themselves, former American diplomats testifying to the offer that was made and assessing that it was both serious and well intentioned only to have the been aghast at the instant dismissal by the White House in regard to offering any positive response. On the contrary their response was totally dismissive. Probably because they were still drunk with the illusion of success in what was appeared as a simple victory in Iraq! This is what makes the West so full of disdain for American manners and methods abroad. Not Marxist tendencies. Such are the dangers of believing simplistic and comforting views, (Danite's) that you were predisposed to in any case. You end up with a distorted view. Which in turn leads to distorted remedies.

Why spend your life fighting shadows? You are obsessed with symptoms, but blind to the causes. The Iranian Bomb that isn't a Bomb. Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini, and his successor, the current supreme leader, Sayyid Ali Khamenei, have issued a religious fatwa against possessing the bomb. "We can exit from the non-proliferation treaty, but we can never exit from a fatwa,".Senior official told western journalists. http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2134160,00.html All the current information suggests that if Iran did still go on to possess the Bomb they would certainly not use it, nor pass it on to third parties. They could not fail to see the logic of obtaining a bomb as demonstrated by the contrast of fortunes between North Korea and Iraq. They, unlike you, have been subject to the gross terrorism that former American administrations have inflicted on their people. They unlike you, are entitled to feel paranoid by virtue of American actions in the Middle East during the last 60 years in particular. However since the invasion of Iraq they have ceased military efforts to procure a Bomb. There is NO SATIFACTORY RESPONSE, or indeed any acknowledgement from you, (merely your paranoid obsessive behavior regards Iran) to the REALITY of the Iranian proposal back in 2003, to accept the Arab peace initiative, cease support of Hezbollah, Hamas and ultimate acceptance of the state of Israel upon successful negotiations with the Palestinians, along with their whole Nuclear program being put on the table for discussion and amendment. All the things you claim to be of vital importance to you and the West!!!??? An offer, that had it been accepted in good grace by the war machine in the White House, could and would have transformed a war ravaged region into a veritable fiesta of peace!

Well, Click, in answer to your question of what will Israel do if/when the US doesn't 'oblige' it? Usually, the US does NOT oblige Israel. Israel has never really depended or asked the US to fight it's battles and/or wars for it. In the 1st Iraq war, the US wanted to keep Israel out of the war. Even though Israel had ample justification for entering the war...numerous missile attacks from Iraq, Israel obliged the US and stayed out of the war. In fact, historically, it has been Israel who has obliged the US militarily. Seems to me, that, if the US doesn't want to support Israel anymore, Israel needn't support the US. This means no longer testing US weapons and giving the US he results and *fixes* for the problems they find. No more provision of samples of enemy weapons (this isn't important since the end of the cold war anyways) No more worrying about obliging the US in our bad decisions. No more intelligence sharing. Back to pre 67 Israel...which s fine.

Danite Serbia can say that. Serbia might say that one day. This is the problem Your statement: "Israel NEEDED to get nuclear weapons as a trump card especially back in the days when her existance was not forgone conclusion like it is now.Iran has no legitimate need for them.This is simply more aggressive power mongering of a failed loser regime " As you know nuclear weapons can never be used. So what kind of "trump card" is this? It was from day one an unstable one for Israel to maintain. No peace has been found in the intervening years to take advantage of this trump card- in fact Israel got a little heady with power. The nuclear game is a very dangerous psychological game, which others want to play naturally, which itself attempts to terrorize whole nations/peoples. It is a kind of terrorism too. Israel NEEDED more her conventional abilities. Israel NEEDED more to come to terms with her neighbors and the Palestinian situation. Regardless of your opinion of Iran- which I may share- Iran or some in Iran feel the need for nukes or that capability. They HAVE been threatened in fact. They have pride. And the fact that they are considered "a loser regime" by some makes them want all the more to show otherwise. So psychologically having a nuclear weapon will prove they are in with the big boys. That it can’t actually be used is immaterial- it’s part of how nations terrorize threaten and escalate of late. That whole process needs to be reversed 180degrees. For Iran even the threat that they might develop plus their support of terrorism gives them a perverse respect, a feeling of power and being an important player. They can be enticed off that possibly- they seem to want that and I dare say need that ( look at their economy and public opinion). What needs to change is the mindset that the US (or Israel) can threaten Iran into submission. So calling Iran a loser does nothing to alter the situation. Best Wishes, D.

The war mongers in both camps desperately want to punish Iran with much death and destruction. This is also a great opportunity to test out some new horrific weapons. Say guys, how about this new 10 ton combo cluster,napalm, anthrax, incendiary bomb? Let's see if this scares the hell out of them!

Ever since George Bush mistakenly led us to believe that the US would do everything to stop Iran from getting Nucleur Bob even to invading Iran, he has looked for other ways to take back his words. He has continued to promise Europe protection showing that he does not bleieve this last proclumation from those who want to make nice nice with Iran. This does not stop him from throwing Israel under the bus, now that he has determined that the the US does not need Israel anymore. It is very obvious in how he has been pushing Israel to the brink with his PLestinian plans. Is he so stupid as to believe that Palestine will also be destroyed should Iran throw a bomb at Israel. The Israel which he plans will be only less than 9 miles at the belt as it was when Israel was that vulnerable in '67. The bomb does not differentiate between peoples or miles.

"You live in a nearly islamofascistic country" Well you've ruled yourself out of serious consideration with that first comment. The UK, 'nearly islamofascistic'? Wow, Kathy, presumably you think we're fighting alongside the Taleban in Afghanistan. Even Fox News knows that we're fighting alongside the Americans. And all that Dhimmi nonsense. I think at the last count there are 6 Muslim MPs in this country. Out of over 600. Wow Kathy, when do you think they'll be forming a government? The neo-cons concern me because they dragged the UK into a war too and they've done huge damage to the US, the leader of the western world and usually a country I admire. The neo-cons however are not going to get the US to invade Iran, so you'll have to learn to live with that.

Israel and its Cocky leadership still want to go after Iran...They will do it alone NOW and the RESULTS will be CLEAR....NO MORE ISRAEL... Israel can't keep it up..Their Kooky Right wing Christians will CHEER... .......ARMAGEDON finally realized... All the JEWS will be saved...

Gil, believe me, size is not the most important thing in life (just ask the ladies here....:). Look, don't you understand, I want you to stay where you are today, but in order to do so in the future, you simply have no other choice but to follow my advice. As I already mentioned in one of my posts to Stan: If your gloomy assessment with regard to your neighbours intentions is true, you have only 2 options left: Compromise (means separate from the Palestinians so you will remain "your own boss") or emigrate. There is simply no third way. P.S. If you decide to go for the 2nd option, we (Swiss) would surely try our best in order to help you out. However, I'm afraid 5'000'000 Israelis would be a little bit too much for us to swallow. But the 50'000 "smartest" we would definitely take. Holy promise...:)

"Israel needs to do what any country would do when faced with that threat. Do their best to mitigate the risk. How they do that is difficult and treacherous, but the gov`t has an duty to try." What do you have in mind, Clive, now that America won't oblige Israel?

keep chewing the carpet boris kathy is kathy

Hold on boys and girls - it's going to be a bumby ride.

Swiss, Thank you, But we don`t need any titles like Switzerland of the Middle East, or "Vatican" of the Middle East. As for the rest of your undermining message, If our neighbors really want peace they know where to find us! Till this day, all they wanted is land, land and more land, do you really think Peace for Land is a fare deal, would you give up more than half of Switzerland for a Peace Relaxation. Israel did! It did it with Egypt (remember Sinai with all them oil fields), guess what they came back and said that they want more land (Taba remember) otherwise no Peace, guess what we gave them it too, all for a Peace Relaxation. Guess they really appreciate it that is why Egypt is like a Swiss cheese for smuggling weapons to Gaza. Guess what Dino we did it again in Lebanon we didn`t ask questions gave back land to Lebanon for some Peace and Quite, guess what it took a little time and they started lunching several attacks on us, if that is not enough they went and demanded we hand them land that does`t belong to Lebanon, sounds familiar. Guess what Dino we did that mistake ones again, we handed them Gaza, we gave them land no question asked, made it faster then any negotiation would legally do it, Guess what they really appreciated it, and as a token of appreciation they continued firing rockets at us! Dino I know what you are thinking Jordan, well Dino you may have not heard of it on Haaretz but the Jordanian Government is trying to buy Land in Israel threw the Greek Church that possesses a great deal of land in Jerusalem, Caesarea and other known places. So Dino how much more does Israel has to shrink to get a Real Peace? Would you hand the Alps to the good Germans before WW2 for Real Peace? Dino let us be a little bit paranoid thinking that it is all just an Arab hocks that we have to be ready for. Or as the saying goes there is only one Israel and only one Jewish state we have no were to go, even Dino won`t have 5 million of us crushing in his back yard!

"So - what do you propose that Israel does about this apparent Iranian threat?" Even you concede that the threat is real, not apparent. You envision (and hope for) a scenario where "Islamic Armies" overun Israel under the protection of an Iranian Nuclear Umbrella. Now that sounds like a pretty serious threat. Israel needs to do what any country would do when faced with that threat. Do their best to mitigate the risk. How they do that is difficult and treacherous, but the gov't has an duty to try.

"THE WHOLE WORLD IS INDANGER WHO GIVES A SHIT?..... ONE THING,I MUST CHIDE YOU WITHOUT RESERVE IS YOUR FOUL LANGUAGE TO Cipora" Thanks for the chuckle, Victor Paul Kathy. (;-) CF

Different ways of talking. Different line spacing. Same shitty attitude towards the same people, same countries, same institutions.

There will be additional sanctions, as has been announced.

If Israel is so paranoid about Iran producing commercial grade uranium (5% enrichment) and if Israel is worried that Iran might, maybe, sometime in the future, if they feel like it, produce enough weapons grade uranium (90+% enrichment) to produce a bomb, even though there are IAEA inspectors watching the enrichment process, then Israel should attack Iran, today. Of course, Israel should probably warn the public that this just might be a suicidal move since Iran will surely retaliate every way they can. But if it is sooooo important that Iran never gets a nuclear bomb, then Israel should commit suicide by attacking Iran as soon as possible. I know, I know, I have no understanding how super human Israelis are and any attack won't really be suicidal because as they note in the "Princess Bride," Israel will only be mostly dead when all the dust settles. So Israel pick your: poison war and suicide today or serious negotiations. (extreme sarcasm intended)

Swiss, Thank you, But we don`t need any titles like Switzerland of the Middle East, or "Vatican" of the Middle East. As for the rest of your undermining message, If our neighbors really want peace they know where to find us! Till this day, all they wanted is land, land and more land, do you really think Peace for Land is a fare deal, would you give up more than half of Switzerland for a Peace Relaxation. Israel did! It did it with Egypt (remember Sinai with all them oil fields), guess what they came back and said that they want more land (Taba remember) otherwise no Peace, guess what we gave them it too, all for a Peace Relaxation. Guess they really appreciate it that is why Egypt is like a Swiss cheese for smuggling weapons to Gaza. Guess what Dino we did it again in Lebanon we didn`t ask questions gave back land to Lebanon for some Peace and Quite, guess what it took a little time and they started lunching several attacks on us, if that is not enough they went and demanded we hand them land that does`t belong to Lebanon, sounds familiar. Guess what Dino we did that mistake ones again, we handed them Gaza, we gave them land no question asked, made it faster then any negotiation would legally do it, Guess what they really appreciated it, and as a token of appreciation they continued firing rockets at us! Dino I know what you are thinking Jordan, well Dino you may have not heard of it on Haaretz but the Jordanian Government is trying to buy Land in Israel threw the Greek Church that possesses a great deal of land in Jerusalem, Caesarea and other known places. So Dino how much more does Israel has to shrink to get a Real Peace? Would you hand the Alps to the good Germans before WW2 for Real Peace? Dino let us be a little bit paranoid thinking that it is all just an Arab hocks that we have to be ready for. Or as the saying goes there is only one Israel and only one Jewish state we have no were to go, even Dino won`t have 5 million of us crushing in his back yard!

Swiss, Thank you, But we don`t need any titles like Switzerland of the Middle East, or "Vatican" of the Middle East. As for the rest of your undermining message, If our neighbors really want peace they know where to find us! Till this day, all they wanted is land, land and more land, do you really think Peace for Land is a fare deal, would you give up more than half of Switzerland for a Peace Relaxation. Israel did! It did it with Egypt (remember Sinai with all them oil fields), guess what they came back and said that they want more land (Taba remember) otherwise no Peace, guess what we gave them it too, all for a Peace Relaxation. Guess they really appreciate it that is why Egypt is like a Swiss cheese for smuggling weapons to Gaza. Guess what Dino we did it again in Lebanon we didn`t ask questions gave back land to Lebanon for some Peace and Quite, guess what it took a little time and they started lunching several attacks on us, if that is not enough they went and demanded we hand them land that does`t belong to Lebanon, sounds familiar. Guess what Dino we did that mistake ones again, we handed them Gaza, we gave them land no question asked, made it faster then any negotiation would legally do it, Guess what they really appreciated it, and as a token of appreciation they continued firing rockets at us! Dino I know what you are thinking Jordan, well Dino you may have not heard of it on Haaretz but the Jordanian Government is trying to buy Land in Israel threw the Greek Church that possesses a great deal of land in Jerusalem, Caesarea and other known places. So Dino how much more does Israel has to shrink to get a Real Peace? Would you hand the Alps to the good Germans before WW2 for Real Peace? Dino let us be a little bit paranoid thinking that it is all just an Arab hocks that we have to be ready for. Or as the saying goes there is only one Israel and only one Jewish state we have no were to go, even Dino won`t have 5 million of us crushing in his back yard!

Besides having more brains then you, Cipora has something else you don't have - class. Get it? PS. We have a lot in common

So - what do you propose that Israel does about this apparent Iranian threat?

"Raad (which means trembling in Hebrew)" "Raad" means "mighty in bed" in Gaelic.

The EU, at a Friday meeting, demanded that Iran stop its uranium enrichment activities and come clean with regard to its nuclear activities, or face additional sanctions. Those in the galleries, including the Laurel-Hardy team, who do not like this, can write directly to the EU with their complaints.

Don't worry about it. He is just a very little man. Regarding your post that they might already have a bomb: of course, I have no way of knowing for sure, but I doubt it. Their enrichement program, at least the ones we know about, are not advanced enough. On the other hand, it is possible that they might have bought a bomb from NK. They most certainly have the money, and NK has the merchandise. Personally, I am more concerned about their terror export to Hamas, Hezbollah and the others. That is an immediate problem, and in a sense more difficult to deal with given the general political atmosphere. Israel, in fact, is forced to let her population be terrorised for the sake of continuing a so-called peace process which has no chance of success, especially, and ironically, as long as Iran can export its terror. Thank you, and Shabbat Shalom, Cipora

Interesting that assessment of Iraq WMD didn't need further discussions between Israel and US, just drop the bombs, wouldn't you, Americans. And 600.000 thousands Iraqis innocent civilians gotr killed for nothing.

it must be that nevada sunshine getting to you ? have you thought of able medical help for your paranoia?