Israel to freeze settlement construction ahead of summit

"The title of his post", no, the title just pointed to the fact that it did call for the unconditional release. You ignored that, ignored supporting that, and claimed he thought it was in the OP paras. he didn't. BTW: The UN is "DEMANDING" it. The UN just isn't requiring it for compliance w/1701. "Tosh" What a member of the Monkees has to do with your lies, I'm just not sure. OP3:calls for control as per 1559 & 1680, which define that control as disarming Hizbullah. "no authority other than" is impossible with an independent army. JB then, by his own arguments, says the recent H manuevers S of the Litani were with the "CONSENT and AUTHORITY of the Govt of Lebanon". OP8 makes it even clearer, which JB again ignores. OP10 says the UNSC must put forward a plan to disarm H "within thirty days". JB ignores that. UNIFIL violated OP12 by not stopping H's hostile exercises. OP14: violated by L JB again tries nonsensical responses in a feeble attempt to avoid reality.

The birth of just about every Nation has been bloody. The US is no exception. BUT, we are held to a higher standard as a people now than we were hundreds of years ago. Israelis Committed acts of terror and were the recipients of terror in return in founding their state. I regret it had to happen that way, but I am a realist. However, the settlements have, since that time, served no other purpose but to increase world terror, terror against Israel and terror against the US. It is an immoral, internationally condemded practice that has brought shame, imfamy and bankrupcy down upon Israel, and it is threatening to do the smae to the US. As the Kadima party suggests, Most Israelis depise the settlements, and want to see them go. They no longer want to have their children stand as human sheilds around a group of extremists whose views they do not support and whose actions have been ruining the country and inspiring terror for 4 decades plus. Raze them to the ground.

DT: "He only addresses a point Peter didn`t make" I addressed a point he made in: 1) The title of his post 2) The 1st sentence of his post 3) The last sentence of his post. DT: "Notice he can`t address the operant paragraphs Peter described" Let's look then... OP1 and OP2 - clearly met. PSM: "Hezbollah to be disarmed (OP3)" PSM: "No paramilitary forces, including (and implying) Hezbollah, will be south of the Litani River (OP8)." Tosh. It says that if forces remain south of the Litani then they will be deemed to be there with the CONSENT and AUTHORITY of the Govt of Lebanon. What *do* you think UNIFIL is? An army of occupation sent by an invading UNSC? Do you believe UNIFIL was sent to usurp Siniora's authority i.e. to force the disarming of Hezbollah regardless? No. It is there to empower Siniora's authority i.e. to give him the tools to disarm Hezbollah IF THAT IS WHAT HE WANTS TO DO. He doesn't want to, and 1701 gives him that choice.

Notice he can't address the operant paragraphs Peter described, and how the Arabs and the UN have clearly violated them. He only addresses a point Peter didn't make, but JB wishes he'd have made. The UN and Lebanon have failed to live up to their requirements, even ignoring the attempts for unconditional release of the soldiers. An honest UN/JB/et al would admit that. Rather, the UN's now talking about lowering the number of UNIFIL troops from the existing 12,000 that failed to do anything about an H exercise south of the Litani.

Because we aren't Muslims, that's why. We did accept UNR181, saying both peoples would be full citizens here. That they don't agree is no reason we should stoop to their jihadists mindset.

"U.S. general Keith Dayton..." never pointed to any specifics. Considering the IDF and Border Police are still finding, on a daily basis, people smuggling explosive belts, bullets and more, as well as roadside bombs, about what could Dayton refer to? As for "Lacking equipment", they were fully equipped after Oslo, and used the equipment against Israel. What has the PA done to show that's changed? "Could you as Israeli really ask for a better confidence building measure...???" Of course: 1) Releasing Gilad Shalit 2) Stopping Fatah terrorists from firing rockets 3) Ending incitement in schools "Or you don`t trust the word of a U.S. general...???" Why should I? Look at the doublespeak used by most of the generals who have talked about "success" in Iraq...

"Why does it matter whether the Palestinians recognize Israel as a state, or a Jewish state?" (American in NY) I think that the shortest way to answer that question is this: It matters very much because there is a huge difference between, on one hand, accepting the fact that in 1948 Zionism has prevailed, - like Egypt and Jordan did by recognizing the existence at their side, of a state that happens to be Jewish in its character, and, on the other hand, ackowledging the Right of this state, to be and stay Jewish. Not only would that be equivalent for the Palestinian leadership to waive, before any negociation has taken place, the refugees' Right of return, it would also imply, so I presume, admitting Israel's Right to control all the Jewish holy sites in the West Bank. The question is whether it is at all realistic to expect any Palestinian leadership to agree, not only to do that, but also be - and most likely stay - the only Arab leaders having done it.

Hi, I will try later to explain why, in my opinion, it does matter to some, and does not to others. If you are still interested. In the meantime, I suggest you read, if you haven't yet, the "Who wants a Jewish state?" editorial, www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/924238.html and the response I just sent a few minutes ago to Burston's "Palestine, and the crime of being a Jewish state", http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/923123.html If you have some remark/question about them, let me know, it may help me make myself clear (and short).

"It is always very easy to attack the settlers." (JOSH) It is indeed; for this once, right you are. See for yourself: "They came to demonstrate their presence to show their muscles, and not to plow, to sow, and to plant. Rather than being a desperate attempt to hold on to the homeland, today's settlements are political acts, whose main purpose is to determine who will be the rulers." Prof. Jacob Talmon (see #181) "Ein Harod, Nahalal, the Jewish neighborhoods of Haifa and Jerusalem, these were the foundations of our national renaissance. Elon Moreh, Netzarim and Kiryat Arba [all in the occupied territories] are threatening to drown us." In "Post-Zionist settlement", Haaretz 20/06/03, by Zeev Sternhell, Professor of Political Science at the Hebrew U of Jerusalem. If these two are "deluded and far-leftist people", if they are 'wrong', and Hader, this fake Palestinian of yours, is 'right', then I am honored to be seen as a 'far-leftist' me too, and not a crock disguised as super-patriot.

Zeev, I do not understand the issue in the article; Erekat: Palestinians will not accept Israel as 'Jewish state'. If you have time. Why does it matter whether the Palestinians recognize Israel as a state, or a Jewish state?

hader Is speaking the truth,but some deluded people seem to disregard what he is saying,and trying to debunk his statements. It is always very easy to attack the settlers,but just hearing it from the opposing one coming from a Palestinian is an eye opener. We need more "haders" here to tell the truth insead of the lies that are promulgated by the far "leftists" who have an agenda of their own.Why is a puzzle...I say to hader BRAVO AND KEEP THE GOOD WORK..

hader Don't let the naysayers stop you from exposing the truth.Tzfonit must have thought you were one of the Jews who are causing problems and I am pleased to hear the ruth coming not from a Jew but a Palestinian/Arab be it a Christian or a Muslim. BUT!They have their agenda and are misled.All the problems emanated with that rat,Arafat whioe before his faulty and grandiose dream your people worked and made a good living in Israel proper,until the "Intifada"began and we know the resulting circumstances. I endorse your comments about the settlers.We relinquished Gaza while the so-called settlers living in Gush Katif were not only a buffer for Isral's security against the terrorists also the Arabs not only worked with them and no troubles ensued.This is just a small example.(JOSH) Untill yasser arafat brought his 50,000 armed terrorists to ruin the lives of all palestinians we had great lives. we traveled to jerusalem and tel aviv and ranana. there were no roadblocks. thanks to beilin, arafat, the hamas, and the foolish leftists in israel and europe all hell broke out in the west bank and now our situation is so much worse than it was pre- oslo(hader). You see the ones who object are merely leftists themselves and ready to blame the ultra religious Jews.That there are some we know.But by and large you people did get on well. Don?t be discouraged by the ones who always need to denigrate the settlers. And who are they to complain?for according the Arab nations surrounding Israel we are all supposed to be ?settlers?..Nuff said I commend your post hader?

"... an agreement can only be achieved between two sovereign parties, Israeli and Palestinian. And it can only result from fair negotiations." Shlomo Gazit, April 4, 2005. www.geocities.com/keller_adam/gazit.htm You are free to believe or disbelieve him. But you will have a real hard time trying to convince me that this could only have been written by someone trusting the Palestinians. S. Gazit is a retired Major General. He has served as the first Coordinator of Government Operations in the territories (1967-74), went to be Head of Military Intelligence (1974-79), and then, President of Ben Gurion U for two terms. He is now on the staff of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies of the Tel Aviv University.

no,i am saying, really to brand jewish people of being decietful and slippery is simply an incredibly racist comment, and that by and large,yhe people who say that have probably never met a jew in their lives-its like saying all arabs are terrorists,suicde bombers,and guilty of honour killings-some are-most are not.

"I told you I do not trust them." (toblerone) You know what? Neither do I. And neither do I trust the Egyptians and the Jordanians. And only a feeble-minded would believe that PM Barak was trusting Assad Senior when he negociated with him and tried to stroke a deal. Woe to the nation whose leader bases his policy on trust toward another one. What I trust is the IDF; I have no choice, it's the only army we have, and it has no interest at all in tricking us. Every foreign leader, without any exception, may, one day, deceive us, if he feels he has an interest to. Your mistake comes from not understanding that a Peace Treaty is a contract, like any other one, and a contract between two parties is a sure sign that no trust exists between them.

PSM: "emphasising the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis, including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers" That's correct; the UN must "address urgently" the causes, and one of the ways it can be "addressed urgently" is by working out a scheme to gain the "unconditional release" of the soldiers. The UN may indeed be urgently wracking its collective brain over this, but so far it has not come up with any ideas that would lead to their release "without conditions". Probably coz it isn't POSSIBLE to come up with such a scheme. Seems pretty straightforward to me. It's clearly giving you some problems, though I don't know why. Because you think 1701 is DEMANDING their unconditional release, perhaps, PETER? You really need to Think Again.

So what are you suggesting, Danny? That being deceitful and "slippery" are admirable traits?

slippery jews-how obsurd! even if you were correct then maybe its a survival skill aquired after millenia of progroms and not to mention the holocost perpetrated at the hands of gentiles/moslems such as yourselves.i may add that these 'slippery jews'are responsible for a great majority of the perks you enjoy today,such as medical cures,mobile phones.computers,satellite navigation,irrigation systems and the list goes on and on.

BBC version. "Emphasising the need for an end of violence, but at the same time emphasising the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis, including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers; " WIKIPEDIA Version.The Resolution demands:[1] Full cessation of hostilities (OP1) Israel to withdraw all of its forces from Lebanon in parallel with Lebanese and UNIFIL soldiers deploying throughout the South (OP2) Hezbollah to be disarmed (OP3) Full control of Lebanon by the government of Lebanon (OP3) No paramilitary forces, including (and implying) Hezbollah, will be south of the Litani River (OP8). The Resolution at the same time also emphasizes:[1] The need to address urgently the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers, that have given rise to the current crisis. YOUR VERSION??

Feel free to quote the "correct" version. When did the terror attacks stop? Arafat and the Pals continue to ignore it,as they do incitement and the claim to ALL Israel. "The following is a performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic,"---" At the outset of Phase I: Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel?s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel. Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.humanitarian, and institution-building fields"

I guess Jim is advocating athe 1948 borders and you are advocating a one state Muslim State instead of Israel. Madam ZSA, you are neither Jewish, a Zionist but rather an Arabist that caters to her Arab sperm donor. You and Danite can pat each others backs all you want but in the long run there is not going to be any evacuations other than population exchanges with jordan.

The Palestinians' HUGE card is violence. If they'd stop the violence the whole thing would grind to a halt. Their violence started all this. Learn some history!

There are no innuendos there, just statements, more or less veiled.

There was terror BEFORE settlements and occupation. Your history is upsidedown. If you think the settlers are the key to the problem please please think again. What they call 'the occupation' was caused by the Terror.

will keep building on his land.the people doing the building are various branches of israeli administration,providing all capital labour and material.the settlers are not in the construction business,neither of housing,nor of infrastructure.in other words we tax-payers build your home.as for "our"the land is also provided by our kind peace loving government,after expropriation under due process of law,as amended for special(arab)cases.there's no delusion like self-delusion,unless it's bluffing the foreign readers,for propaganda's sake. n.b.you served in an elite unit in the intifada-how pathetic is that all units have become elite and that elite units need be deployed against mostly teenage stone throwers,supported by some light arms.you admit they failed-since elite units returned for second intifada.3rd chance soon.

There were Jews fighting in WWI in Europe, too. This did not prevent the Nazis and their collaborators from murdering Jewish veterans and their families.

You got me! I fell for his line on the first round! I don't buy it, either. He might get somewhere in advertising, though, if he works at it long enough.

Put your fingers in your ears, there is a big "BANG" on its way' Same as the past, Israel announces "peace moves" and then, BEFORE they actually do anything, the "terrorists" supply them, on cue, with another excuse to say: "ALL BETS ARE OFF". "If an Israeli politician tells you that the water is wet - get a second opinion - he is probably pointing at sand".

No, I only read that one post by Hader. And reacted without giving it enough thought to spot the pat "candy" phrases. As for your trip to Tennesse, August is the hottest month of the year here, and you got the worst of it. 108, huh? Typical, this year! Me, I stayed inside all month! Good to hear from you. Read your posts quite regularly, along with a select few others. Regards, Jim

I am not going to confirm or deny my political orientation which is my business alone; This labeling is meaningless. What counts are the ideas anf whether they can be supported by facts and shear and clear reasoning. I made it previously clear that the position taken by previous Israeli govrenments transcended political orientations and that both Left and Right were united in their goal to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state. The differences between the parties are apparent in regards to social issues but not foreign politics. Now that you might have understood my position Josh you may kiss Wenkel goodnite.

My dear ZSA. Hader is not me but I share his sentiments. I guess he also figured out that maybe you are not Jewish at all as i have. Why are you also not denying that your paranmour and sperm donor was an Arab? It that not why you are such a deeply devoted Arabist? Hader, do not worry about Tzfonit aka Bracha and just continue with your posts. She has nothing to say about Israel that is good.

Is that why Israel`s apartheid wall, goes the long way round?... It is far from apartheid wall, please look up `apartheid` definition before`blindly`repeating it in the `conga line` of mass anti-Israeli `hysteria`. `Apartheid` does not separate (or has anything to do) with entirely different `sets` living on the entirely different sides. However, the security or separation barrier does, when it protects or separate one set of people from another tormenting or hating each other. The barrier came up at the `insistance` of Pal hydras & radicals, who had finally made Israel realize they need protection & separation. The ptotection & separation (for the at most effectiveness) must go all the way around. The `apartheid` term would have applied had Israelis & Pals would have been one society with one group dominating the other. That begs the thought of `apartheid` being very much relevant only to people who insist on Palestine to include all of Israel. We do not think like that, do we?

You know that it is a truism that a moron always stays a moron. I have not bothered with you for well over 3 months precisely for that reason and Choni was doing a good job exposing your idiocies and moronic posts. Start learning new tricks if you can, or are you too uneducated for that?

Your anti semitic agenda against the settlers , the religious and the right has been demented, idiotic and outright criminal. Get a Life now that your boyfriend is gone.

Whats your hurry. You will be long gone before there is a Single Muslim State instead of Israel. The Freeze is temporary and the settlements on Sovereign Jewish historic Israel will never be dismantled. Stop Salivating. Jewish, Zionist or Soveriegn is something you know nothing about my ZSA. Gabe and Bracha Talk on Nov 19, 2007 or thereabouts.

PSM: "In Parallel as one happens the other happens,in parallel. Consult a dictionary please." What you and Israel are claiming is that Isreal don't need to carry out THEIR tasks UNTIL the Pals have finished demolishing "terrorism". That is not "parallel", but "reciprocal", and that is ruled out in the Road Map itself. Simply put: THEY carry out their tasks until THEY get to the end of Phase I. And then THEY stop and wait for the other side to catch up. YOUR side carries out YOUR tasks until YOU get to the end of Phase I. And then you stop and wait for them to catch up. If both sides reach the end of Phase I at the same time then GREAT. FANTASTIC. But if ONE SIDE starts lagging then the OTHER SIDE doesn't stop; that is a guarantee of total standstill within each Phase. The Road Map is not written that way; the entire process stops BETWEEN PHASES to allow the laggards to catch up, not WITHIN A PHASE.

PETER said "...terror claims ... Did not even stop from groups such as Al Aqsa who admitted on BBC that they would stop if Arafat asked them" Arafat? ARAFAT?? What part of Arafat dying did you miss? What does Arafat have to do with Israel's obligations over the last 3 years? But to the point - That just doesn't matter. Israel agreed to complete their side of phase 1 without ANY preconditions of the Pals completing ANY of the Pal obligations. You STILL have no excuse for Israel not fulfilling their obligations under Phase 1 regardless of what Arafat did, or what Abbas is doing now. The only thing that any lack of Pal progress does to affect Israel's obligations is that Israel does NOT have to start the second phase until the first phase is complete. That is what is meant by "performance based" road map. If you don't like the agreement Israel signed, too bad. You can't just re-define the agreement to suit your desires.

Why wouldn't try, for once, to use your (brilliant ???) ingenuity, to challenge those quotes, and show for all to see, that their authors did not know what they were talking about? Instead, it is so much easier, is it not, to throw the message-bearer in jail. I can understant you.

Because you think they are interested in our parliamentary democracies?

PETER SM - Your claim that the Road Map calls for Israel to wait until the Pals complete their obligations under Phase 1 before Israel begins any of Israel's 9 obligations under Phase 1 is a bald face lie. Your attempt to post an incomplete quote from the Road Map that made it look like only the Pals had obligations during Phase 1 was an obvious attempt at hiding the truth about Israel's obligations. You are either willfully ignorant of the intent of the Roadmap, or you KNOW you are wrong, and you are spreading lies on purpose. None of this is new. You take the same approach to 1701. You have repeated the same type of lies with regard to Israel's obligations under 1701 too. The bottom line is that in 2003, Israel agreed to take on 9 tasks without ANY preconditions of the Pals doing anything. Israel has done NONE of these tasks. Israel cannot blame the Pals for Israel failing all of their obligations.

10% is only the number of the ones known to be there. Not only these areas are no go zones for non immigrants but they are zone where french law does not apply.

How would you really know what is happening unless you spent a year or so in the ME? Have you spent time in the ME? I'm not being a smart ass.

Nice try PETER SM; reposting from 355 to 357 to remove the Israeli obligations under Phase 1. OOPS! too late, the truth is out. Phase 1 is NOT just tasks for Pals to complete before Israel begins Phase 2. Israel agreed to complete their Phase 1 obligations IN PARALLEL. It is you who doesn't understand the meaning of parallel in this context. It doesn't mean "synchronized" where both sides sing or dance in a duet. It means that neither side waits for the other to complete any tasks before completing their own tasks. Here are some of Israel's tasks in Phase1 GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001. Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements) www.un.org/media/main/roadmap122002.pdf This is a performance based plan. Performance is measured before going to the next phase. That is the ONLY point where the performance of the Pals affects what Israel has agreed to do.

Quote " Professor Majid Khadduri, ect...http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471412,00.html " , Please let me delude myself and suppose that you never knew that . Yet despite such quote , the Road Map Mischief proceed at Annapolis with the blessings of arabised lefties Abu Peres , Abu Beilin , Abu Gihad Levy ect...Abu pagan Olmert Gov't with his arabised High Court and pharaoh taskmaster (IDF), If they claim to represent the Israeli public , then there is no doubt that their heads should be checked , xed rays , CT ect... Doctors recommendations should be an urgent change of policies ,and if not then to all be fedexed to the arabia wilderness , No wonder they all play down with Solana encouragement the final report of the experts authoritative scholars judges of the Winograde Commission .

american public support israel in the face of her enemies is at a five-year high,according to survey commissioned by the israel project,a pro-israel advocacy group headquartered here and in jerusalem.the survey concluded that an average of 66% of americans rate their support for israel as warm or very favorable.ten % said they suppport the palestinians.most respondents-73%-blamed islamic extrimism primarily for middle east instabibility.

m taking some of my time to give you a more objective view, In my country I know both Jews and Moslems, they are both hard working and law abiding citizens and worship according to their religion, I think what you talking about are exctremeits that probably have been brainwashed by certain ideology, From what I uderstand is that the Moslems in the Filipines were being directed by Alqada radicals. Now if your a Molsem and you see other Moslems in Palestine being disposed of their land and thrown in refugee camps, would you not be anti Jewish Christian and create more radicals.

Jews had fought in Europe, too, during WWI. This did not stop the Nazis and their colloborators from murdering Jewish veterans and their families, along with the rest of the Jewish population. I would have thought that you would be aware of this fact.

what did palestinians call themselves before 1967?according to bible scholars,these modern palestinians are in fact the descendants of esau[brother of jacob[israel].God gave them a land,jordan[edom],petra[mount seir].and the modern jordanians are really belong to the arabian peninsula[from the hashimte family].

This time is might have some truth,American welfare cheques might stop, should Israel not listen to big bad brother.

Durson Now allyou have to do is,put your head under the shower,and cool off.it will do you the world of good...he he he he he Gutten Nacht

Marching vast numbers of Jews into Judea and Samaria for an extended stay is one of the best ways to kill the Israel suicide conference at Annapolis. Let us prove, once and for all, we will never "freeze" our cities and towns in Judea and Samaria or anywhere else in our Homeland. I strongly urge all strong, patriotic Jews to seriously consider an extended stay in Judea and Samaria over the next year.

The chorus of the knee jerk Israel haters,none of whom are antisemites of course,speaks for itself.

But the freeze would probably not encompass large settlement blocs that Israel wants to keep in a final peace agreement, the daily said. The Palestinians want to include all of the West Bank, which Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war, in a future state.(ted) In their dreams I say dear ted.. They want,they want,they ask.They beg,even with all the Billions of dollars still beg,beg and more of the same. The West Bank belongs to Israel it is not up for grabs.Not occupied,but,disputed and hope it will remain so for ever.And so says I and the rest of Jews.You are in New York ted,hope all is well,and tick di boo. Regards

may I ask...where do monkeys or apes come from?God gave people 969 years to repent of their wickedness,out of that,noah preached to them 120 years...only noah and his family and his sons'wives got saved.do you know what the ark mean,clickfool?that's the picture of Jesus Christ,without Christ you will be drowned into eternal damnation.don't you know that continents used to be single landmass.don't underestimate God's power,clickfool.you asked me how a kangaroo hopped from the southwest asia to australia.as I said,the 7 continents used to be a one land only.the son of eber[hebrew],peleg means divided,in his days,the earth was divided.I'll ask peleg when I get to heaven,you will say,peleg is in hell....you ask him then.

Quote " Arabs rally for Shalit, Regev and Goldwasser http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471634,00.html " , It would be no surprise to see them pressuring the pagan Israeli Gov't to release in exchange terrorists same as Egypt does , and wich release Hamas will translate this kidapping into a political victory to his masses wich Hamas could care less about , Didn't Adala Center filed a petition to arabised High Court against Gaza power cut , The Arab rally should first be about getting concrete info about the welfare of Shalit, Regev and Goldwasser with nothing in exchange same as arabs terrorists in jail are allowed to get visits , ect...

Did not even stop from groups such as Al Aqsa who admitted on BBC that they would stop if Arafat asked them. Effective Homicide bombing did not stop till the fence went up up even then attempts such as the Shahid Hamas grandmother have tried without success.

Judah I said it above and mean it.He is one of the most leftist you'll ever come accross. So, I woulln't waste the time of day with our Michael N...I just read his reponse to you down there somewhere,and you will have gathered by now what his toughts are on the subject. I do not even read what he writes having done so a few months ago and found out what his views were/are.I just wanted to talk with you,and if this comes out hopefully you will also read Mikey's response. Good Night,fare thee well...

Such manufactured propaganda of yours is in the interest of the Road Map Mischief , wich the US Dep't of States promotes in order to create a jihad state in the midst of Israel , so as to portray Annapolis conference as a success , Such US Dep't of States policy is promoted thru the violations of counter terrorism policies , a US Dep't of States perversion of Law portrayed as 'gestures and concessions' extracted by the US Dep't of States' coercion and pressure on the Jewish State , Example of the release of mid level terrorists wich will be exploited for an other round of arab urban terror attrition wave should arabs threats , blackmail , extortions and banditism be not relieved at Annapolis , A result of the Road Map Mischief is the Gaza disengagement wich led to the creation of the Jihad State Gaza , wich Gazans Mischief is a death blow to Road Map Mischief . the Gaza takeover show Abbas irresponsibility for power , The US Dep't of States pressure should not be applied on the back of Israel but should be applied againt the Arab League who has land size twice the size of Russia territory , and in wich ten pal jihad states may be fabricated , So as to contain the Islam crescent expansion in those territories , Jewish settlements have existed since immemorial time , and jewish settlers are returning to those lawfull historical jewish lands , You portray as racists and extremists the settlers philosophy and add that they live on welfare , and you want them out of their jewish lands , But isn't this the appartheid policy promoted by Arab League under the 2002 Arab League machination refiled on Mar.2007 in Ryadh-Saudia 'Lords of War' Summit , Wich manufactured arab propaganda is repeated by Arafat living terror legacy Abbas whom with his hordes of violent terrorists extremists live on welfare , financed by Arab League , EU and US , And about wich the world keeps quiet about but BS and brainwash such sustenance to be portray as human gestures , While the Arab League educate , brainwash and coerce arabs to oppose Zionism or to reside in low life concentration camps in arabs states , If it is not clear to you that it is the extremist arab invader who is violently occupying jewish lands , then it should be clear to you that it is within Israel' right of self defense to push back , to fight back , to combat the uncivilised , violent mideast extremists arabs threats , whether demographic and the daily violent arab urban terror attrition , Go BS someonelse and portray as civilians those who are raised , brainwash , educated by birth for terror purposes , to violently oppose Zionism ,

WE need to find lots and lots of more Jews in order to fulfill the quota of 500.000. Well old buddy,we gonna find us another tribe like in Ethiopia, how about Zimbabwe. I bet you·ll find millions of Shona who claim ties to a lost tribe of Israel.

Ms. Kohn, News flash! There were a lot of Jews in the US Army in WWII. They had lots of weapons and used them to great effect. One way or another we all depend on the good will of each other in society. There has been nothing particular "new" about the character of human beings in ten thousand years. Peace. Steve

Mythbuster You never said a truer word.But,to whom shall we try to make them understand the nuanced words of wisdom and knowledge like you and I perceive(or rather know to be truth)? Even to read the various foreign voices trying to tell or placate us that if we give in all will be well and happy ever after.We are wrong in their eyes because of our own Israeli mentality. To read this type of replies makes one grin,or laugh.Because the ones to which this concept is applicable are not the Israelis,BUT THE ARAB SQUATTERS FALSELY CALLED PALESTINIANS. Additionally all the Muslims the world over,plus the Arab countries surrounding us in the ME..NUFF SAID. Finally,I fervently hope the Annapolis venture fails and fails miserably.Otherwise it is Israel who will suffer more from its result if we gain by giving more,and nothing in return... Sad,very sad....

I can assure you that we are quite aware of what is "unfolding under our very nose", and our assessment will do without the xenophobic/islamophobic projections which Americans, Israelis, and other non-Europeans, whose common denominator is a large amount of ignorance combined with a limited amount of factual knowledge, try to impose upon us.. Who are `our very noses` you are talking about? Who are `we`, you & your mom? Actualy it is the American & Israeli liberals & far left, yet largely unfamiliar with xenophobic/islamophobic problems to the degree the Europe had already experienced it, are ignorant & have much to learn about this issue (visions of radical Islam dominating the world). Have you seen the changes in Europe, & what the major European leaders have to say lately (France, Germany, Britain-basically endorsing Israel, after understandably carefully balancing & treading political waters? I have seen so.

Reality tells me, from experience, that it is just ugly to blame a whole group for the acts of a minority. If I were robbed and beaten by a Muslim should I blame all Muslims in my city? Or just the one who did the crime? Should we blame all Iranians because the rulers are just a tad loony? Or Japanese for Pearl Harbor?

never in the history of humam race have so much written by so many to so few.(kept in the dark)well done Winsto Churchill.(I added my bit too) I really cannot add anything more succinct than what you have already written,indeed. And I'll cut and paste your last paragraph if I may.Because it was so true and good. brainwashing from birth.i know i don`t have a clue at what transpires behind the scenes and what the true interests are,and i am almost certainly better qualified than you to know stuff.it`s just that you get the real dirt 60 years post-factum.shalom,peace,salamu aleikum and good night.And Shavua Tov(JOSH)

Arabs rally for Shalit, Regev and Goldwasser http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471634,00.html

"Professor Majid Khadduri, may he rest in peace, from Johns Hopkins University in the US was the world?s leading authority on Arab definitions of peace and war, and he noted that they view peace as a tactical means for achieving their strategic objective ? defeating the enemy. Peace constitutes a temporary break in the ongoing war against the enemy and/or infidel. " http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471412,00.html

toblerone pakistanis in the uk are muslims who are refusing to accept a nation that has brought them in and housed them.they look back to the caliphate and days of islamic supremacy.(toblerone) Right and correct you are(JOSH)terrible to encounter what they are trying to do everywhere they live. zeev perhaps you would be a good chappie and stop throwing quotes at us wholesale.do use your own limited ingenuity(toblerone). Sorry toblerone zeev will ever understand your well nuanced reply and will pester you ad-infinitum to the contrary sorry (JOSH) And all the while the music plays on.In on one earand out of anotherwith Zeev(JOSH) Take care toblerone you have done your duty,and I thank you on behalf of zeev... My commiserations to you toblerone... Regards

a modicum of courtesy.if you use vile language you will be paid back in kind.

Is that why Israel's apartheid wall, goes the long way round?

may they increase and may they live to see judea and samaria inhabited with 500000 jews.

Polybios And Ibrahim Well I sent a response to B'galil Pertaining this idea. Ain?t sitting in a chair being generals wonderful eh? You have gone bananas for sure.Why?because it would never ever work. Have you two thought the mere fact that no Arab nation has,since heaven knows when.. 1) Even as I sit here in Israel according to the surrounding Arab countries WE AIN'T supposed to be here at all. Think about it. 2) If and when the Palis have a country(Baruch Hashem never)the country will be "Judenrien" full stop. 3) Failing this your wonderful exposition of yours,yes Jews can move over BUT! 4)Only if the Jews accept to live like "dhimmies"like"and nothing else. 5)Sorry chums, NO DEAL! We are never going to become "dhimmies" EVER AGAIN. 6)If I err and you can come up with a real and cogent and wonderful idea I'd be only too pleased to say: let?s "hear it from the deaf man"... 7)They cannot even live with each other.and are killing one another as we speak 8) No the best and wonderful solution is: 9) Total divorce, and live happily ever after and all?s well that ends well Inshallah?

"I do not believe one instant that Israel would gain peace." As I said, you are representative of an Israeli mindset which after a couple of wars won believe that continuous war is to your advantage. And that peace is not gainful enough to consider. And I dare say that a small state building its existence on continuous war has no future in this century.

Office of the Spokesman Washington, DC April 30, 2003 A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict The following is a performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, At the outset of Phase I: Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel?s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.

Hello Cipora, It took me only a couple of her `slip ups` (long time ago) to understand who `hides` behind pro Pal `mourner & moralist`. The wall of hard core anti-Semitism are as concrete as the walls of totally hopless souls of ISMniks & likes. Getting through to them descussing Israeli/Jewish matters is practically useless. On the other hand, their rhetoric is as useless, impotent, & as evident mostly comical & sad.

Office of the Spokesman Washington, DC April 30, 2003 A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict The following is a performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, under the auspices of the Quartet [the United States, European Union, United Nations, and Russia]. The destination is a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005, as presented in President Bush?s speech of 24 June, and welcomed by the EU, Russia and the UN in the 16 July and 17 September Quartet Ministerial statements. At the outset of Phase I: Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel?s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel. Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.

With Israel, she makes the declaration, than makes sure it does not harm her, than does it. The middle part very much depends on the Arab involvement & behavior, that immediately explains the lack of last part. Sorry, `short cuts` excluding Arab roles are not allowed anymore.

Israelis are nothing like the Jews were in Europe. I'll tell you why: the Israelis have guns with which to defend themselves. They do not have to depend on the possible good will of their fellow citizens. That difference is so essential that an Israeli, in particular a native born Israeli, is a totally new character.

Israel holds ALL the cards because it is an occupier, it is one sidedly stronger militarily and financially and it had promised to take the steps it had repeatedly announced. It is Israel which is disingenuous, I am merely an observer. You on the other hand are devoid of any ideas or constructive criticism.

Quoting you: "You simply have nothing better to add to the debate." For you, Natallie, there is no debate, only your own pronouncements, more often than not with antisemitic innuendos

I see you think that the "Land of Israel" promised to that entirely mythical character, Abraham, in that most digracefully obvious book of myths and legends, the Book of Genesis, extends all the way to the oilfields of Iraq. My own sincere belief is that when Israel is defeated in conventional warfare, within the next couple of decades, as it will be, it will be grateful to have the smaller stretch of real estate given to it by the UN back in 1948.

The settlers are the enemies of the state of Israel, the US, and most certainl the Palestians. Their actions and philosphy is racist, extremist, and contrary to the wishes of the majority of Israelis, Americans, and Palestinians. The settlers are perfectly happy to continue in the actions, which are condemned the world over, depsite how many Israelis, Americans, and Palestinians die as the result of their actions. We in the US are sick of the terrorism that is spawned by decades of giving welfare to the settlements and the occupation. I know normal Israelis are sick of the terror and infamy as well. Good riddance to the settlements and the racist extremists that inhabit them.

The US Secretary of State apparently wants to go down into the books of history as the one who established the Palestinian state, which is understandable after so many failures of her foreign policies. She will do it on the back of Israel. For an exit strategy in Iraq, she will try to win over Syria, again on the back of Israel. Rice can try all this because she faces an Israeli PM against whom another crime investigation was announced today. Against Iran, Rice had let the Europeans conduct hoax negotiations for years, and countries like Germany have doubled their trade with the mullahs in the meantime. Today Solana evaded the question for sanctions and gave a hint how Israel will be cheated. It is to be hoped that Rice will fail with her last-minute exit actions. But for now, concessions are only made by Israel. Annapolis looks more like Munich and Israel like Czechoslovakia.

I do not believe one instant that Israel would gain peace.

I think Ehud Barak would make a great prime minister and that he has learned from his earlier mistakes(that`s the supposed criteria of intelligent people, nachon ?!) What do You think of the new Zahal leadership echelon ?

Cipora, the difference lies in that this time Natallie definitely surpassed herself. She was so deadly serious. No sarcasm or veiled humor, plain venom.

"What price, at all, is anyone else paying, especially among the Arabs? I only see gains for them all, and nothing in return, not even to the US." He who can imagine peace only as a distribution of gains, a bit more, a bit less among the concerned parties, has not understood the meaning of peace. I am afraid that your mindset is somewhat representative of Israelis, and descriptive why we have seen 40 years of occupation.

That Hader guy certainly has the gift of the gab, don't you think?

Ilya, "freedom of choice" is a luxury that only the women enjoy in Switzerland. (Un)fortunately...:)

Why don't you ever refer to the Sabra, the proud prickly endogenous stereotype of the Israeli-born Jew? Why this gleeful tenacity to diaspora stereotype? Is it so difficult for you and natallie to admit to your plain old antisemitism?

Q1 ; What do yourself contribute ? Q2 ; I mean, besides arrogant ignorance & know-it-all malevolent pontificating ? A ; -Nothing much !

Danite, people are not screaming for our destruction, but (judging from certain posts) I have to assume that some are at least secretly longing for it.... You see, we are not much better off today than you guys (at least when it comes to the "brutal" world of Haaretz TB).... Sorry, but not 100 % "normal" yet, maybe tomorrow....who knows...???

never in the history of the human race have so many written so much about a subject they no so little about with such absolute conviction with so few exceptions as the posters herein. hint:do you really think you know how and why a state such as israel or more important,the u.s is run,as opposed to t.v.,press and all propaganda and brainwashing from birth.i know i don't have a clue at what transpires behind the scenes and what the true interests are,and i am almost certainly better qualified than you to know stuff.it's just that you get the real dirt 60 years post-factum.shalom,peace,salamu aleikum and good night.

"Israelis believe that the Israeli PM should be removed from office." (Jonathan S) This is what they believe. I know that, and this is not what I am blaming them for. Don't change the subject. The subject was that Olmert would not "conduct negotiations over the very existence of Israel." You have grossly overstated your case, admit it. "The Israeli people are knowing much more what is what, than you seem to believe." (Jonathan S) Perhaps. But there is something which they still have to grasp, and it is that a national leader, who has no independent state to rule, whose land has no recognized borders, and is disputed by a neighbour state building on it foreign settlements protected by a foreign occupation army, - will never successfully challenge his extremist factions.

I can assure you that we are quite aware of what is "unfolding under our very nose", and our assessment will do without the xenophobic/islamophobic projections which Americans, Israelis, and other non-Europeans, whose common denominator is a large amount of ignorance combined with a limited amount of factual knowledge, try to impose upon us. Mind you, your recent attempt to prove that "Old Europe" is on the decline (Iraq war), went awry. We are looking confidently forward to your next try.

zeev i told you i do not trust them so how can i possibly recommend negotiations? you debate the point as if it were new zealand negotiating with australia.the palestinians of gaza and the west bank do not resemble the anglo saxons.they do not stand by their word.they kill each other.they are fighting a civil war and they are endlessly tempremental. it is negotiating with wolves. ask lieb talmon for an answer.

Then You havn`t read very much of what I`ve written.....or You`ve been cherry-picking ! I say, it`s disingenious of You to "ask" Israel to hold up her end of the dealings, & asking nothing of our adversaries, while someone like "Jenin-massacre" Erakat comes out & decares that his people won`t recognize Israel as a jewish state. That`s the basis of everything for us.

I have the distinct feeling that we are seeing another Yalta. No one even mentions that after Annalopis, there are plans for a second meeting in Moscwa, which from what I gather would be about Syria. I seriously doubt that anything meaningful will be done about Iran, and I am beginning to wonder whether that issue is as crucial as all that. Israel should not let the world solve that problem on her back. I see the writing on the wall, as clearly stated by some: Israel is to blame for all terror problems, and therefore Israel alone should pay the price. What price, at all, is anyone else paying, especially among the Arabs? I only see gains for them all, and nothing in return, not even to the US.

when we do we would have a great advantage in future negotiations. we would then seek to keep the hills overlooking the coastal plain and in return give up all the wadi ara region as well as the little triangle to the palestinians.a huge increase in the jewish population in the west bank would enable us to do all this and more.

You have either very a very bias dog if among all of the reported conflicts it barks only during ME one or very bias newscast that never reports other conflicts thereby depriving your dog of freedom of choice.:)

B`Galil Sorry I didn't get your drift? Did you mean if and when a Pali state(hope not for a couple of centuries if at all)is established,and the Jews move into a Palestinian State?Is that what you propose?Well hot digidy dog,by all means if I understand you correctly. But conversely you know full well that in all arab lands including the would be pali one,it has to be Juderein! Don't you know this? Gosh I think you must be dreaming.As we live in our own land now,according to the surrounding Arabs we are not supposed to be here! So where do you get your lovey,dovey, ideas I cannot fathom. Wouldn`t their presence be good for the New Palestinian society and economy? Why should they have to leave.(B`Galil) Theoratically it would be a wonderful idea and excercise.But!With whom are we dealing here?With a sort of barbarians who cannot even tolerate Jews and kill each other.Try and go into Gaza and you know you'd be dead in seconds.Waste of breath. Am Yisrael Chai!

You dont barak and Ayalon( who I prefer to abrak) could mount a a good campaign?? Do you see kadima splitting into left and right factions??? Do you think Bibi could win enough seats to put together a demented right wing coalition with shas and friends??? if labor doesnt get into govt soon,it will be a sad for israel and people like you who are the ones with their fingers in the dykes holding back the tides of deranged voddoo obscurantism from drowing Israel in amulets and settlements.Regards

i believe that angela merkel is a good woman.i am however puzzled as to why the germans are so interested in bringing the jews back to germany.they also seem to want the incoming jews to be well spread through the nation not wanting them to concentrate in the biggest cities.any ideas.is it plain altruism?

You must think that I have forgotten your snide remark about assassinating abbas. Well, I have not. I remember clearly that you said that you would have one eye laugh and the other eye cry. I also remember that you said that you would be proud to wear a t-shirt saying you are an antisemite. I aslo remember that on several occasions you have advocated that Israel be destroyed with wmd. Indeed, you said that you can hardly wait for the iran nuclear bomb. So, Durson, really stop being such a pansy, and stop denying your convictions that have been expressed numerous times by you.

or in other words: opinionated and ignorant middle-east expert wannabees, with nothing better to do than stick their blue noses in other people's affairs.

you are of course right democracy does not come easily to them in comparison with say britain.it is not so natural for germany. the reason why i wrote in a rather unfriendly manner was only because of axel and two other german nationals who came to curse.had they not opened their mouths i would have not discussed germany. may i recommend a book? saul friedlander on the jews in germany between 1933 and 1939.i read it several times and could read it yet again.shalom

Poor you.its rough being swiss and having the same judgements thrown back at you.But the difference is this. no one is screaming for the mass murder of swiss people and the destruction of swizterland, thats what we jews have had to contend with for years.maybe you will understand that one day.Feeling more normal now??

How would Labor fare? Not well enough, Danite. With Peres in the non-political position of president, and having left Labor for Kadima anyway, we will have to rally our forces around people who are good but of less caliber than we need, and I am afraid we will be stuch with the raanting raving Bibi, who will be a disaster for foreign as well as domestic affairs. We will have to organize a strong opposition and have the peace process underway by then. The Likud will come up with nothing better and Kadima is going to dissolve into a cloud of fog.

and neither did Palestinians. You deserve each other!

Never mind declaring a 'willingness to dismantle illegal settlements,' Israel. Just do it! enough of the double talk and double standards. The world is witnessing your continued land grabbing, bulldozing, bull....

Hi Clickfool , That Covenant ( between the pieces ) is unconditional ie: does not require the Jewish people to fulfill any conditions they receive it from G-D whether they are rightious or unrightious . Genesis 15 . In answer to your question : The Jewish people should be ready to receive their full inheritance - perhaps as a result of winning a defensive war - at any time . It is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning that they will eventually receive it in full .

Quid pro quo... What tangible action do the pals have to offer in return? Dismantling of militias (not re-adsorption of them into the polical structure)? Renunciation of violence? What? Please tell me the pals have something to offer, especially if some of the settlements are torn down. And DO NOT run with the trite, absurd notion that only when 100% of the settlements are gone, will the Pals do anything for their part. What is their compromise? ie sacrifice? Negotiations are no place for absolutists...

Yes, indeed, you are correct, Danite, this is indeed an unfortunate aspect of this unjust world. I get to feel the anti-Swiss mood (almost) everyday here on Haaretz Talkback. The difference between us: I have found a way to live (or rather deal) with it. You obviously haven't (yet).

If you really must know, I am responding to his post of last night.Secondly you did not answer my questions, and yes I hope you will become normal again, I look foward to having a very normal evening and wish you one as well, now that your scenic views wont be obscured by minarets anytime soon. Write soon!!

I wrote you, some okey posts. haaretz didnt publish. because I mixed up everything. just know that I like your friendship. let me not talk more ı can make mistakes. love atilla karagözoğlu

Ilya, I am facing the "consequences". My dog starts barking each time the ME conflict is in the evening news here on Swiss TV... Heaven knows why...:)

You are right, going back to partition is a non starter thats for sure.Tell me Tzfonit, if an election were held within a year in israel how woulod Labor fare? in your opinion.Thanks and keep up the good work.

"if you come from an ape.that ape came out of the ark[as you said,the noah and his ark were a myth" There was no Ark, Maria - it's a Babylonian myth taken up by the Israelites in captivity. If you believe there was an Ark, and Noah, could you tell me how long it took the kangaroos to hop to it? Did God give them several years warning of the Flood to come? I think I asked you this before and didn't get an answer. As for where I came from, I, like you, am the product of countless aeons of evolution, developing steadily from bacteria in the primeval oceans, through countless earlier forms, through near-humans to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Evolution is a fact, and we are the product of it.

Zeev Quote " "Battle of the numbers: Jewish minority by 2020", What is 13 years more, for a stateless people who has already stood up for 40 years of occupation and brutal repression? When the day comes, and the settlements have made a one-state solution inescapable, we shall see, then, who will withdraw, and who will stay." , The Battle of the numbers in the Israeli-Arab conflict is an issue gradually sharpening itself in the west , arabs are exploiting arabs demography to undermine the democracies of the west by legal means , when the arab intent is the advance of the idealsim and 'isms' of the Islam crescent , Such arab demographic threat is no valid argument for the UN , Quartet and US Dep't of States coercive pressure misleading Israel to give hand , to reward arab banditism and terror by the creation of a 2nd jihad state in the midst of Israel per the Road Map Mischief , (Gaza turned out to be by now the 1st jihad state per the Road Map Mischief) , for such Mischief stops not after such state establshement in the west bank per the arab manufactured propaganda repeated by Arafat living terror legacy Abbas but is only a stage in the said Islam crescent expansion per the arab inrent , Council on American-Islamic Relations: "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad (CAIR co-founder). Omar Ahmad praised suicide bombers who "kill themselves for Islam," worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52184 , One of the mutlifaced angle to press for such Islam intent , is the EU exploitation of the wording as Mordecai quote " ...racist, ignorant, border-line lunatic...Scary stuff....ETHNIC CLEANSING...Nazis... ideology ..." , Is as if EU and Mordecai surname the separation wall as 'apatheid wall' , a wax in the ear as a diversion from the contribution of such wall and fence in the fight against arab urban terror attrition wich is 'also' a tool for the said Islam crescent expansion per the arab intent , Road Map Mischief may represent Esau as a "a cunning hunter, a man of the field" , Arab League 2002 machination may represent Ishmael's banditism "... a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be upon all, and everyone's hand upon him," , But i wish i could say that Jacob is "a wholesome man," a dweller in the tents of learning ." for it certainly is not the case of these Abu Peres , Abu Beilin integral part of the pagan Israeli Gov't with its arabised High Court who forbids , oppress and persecute Judaism rituals on Temple Mount and have turned IDF as the pharaoh taskmaster ,

Tadchase, to be honest, I can't deny a certain fun-factor by "debating" him....:) Keep on with your monumental task (reforming the Republican party over there...). Cheers.

Reality bites, is it not? Be my guest, here is another one, from the same (see #224), for your pleasure: "The striving to dominate and rule, at the end of the twentieth century, a hostile foreign population different in its language, history, culture, and religion [ ] is like the attempt to revive feudalism. The question is not a moral one. The project is not practically possible, nor is it worth the price." "Let us not compel the Arabs to feel that they have been humiliated until they believe that hope is gone and they must die for Palestine." 1980. Way before the first suicide-bombing.

You wrote: "I think you want us to accept that anyone who criticises the state of Israel is, by definition, an antisemite." Nice try. Please find one place where I have even implied that. I have repeatedly cited authors on Talkback like Rashid Khalidi, the noted Palestinian scholar, Zaki Chehab, and others who are quite critical of Israel. I don't believe they are antisemites. I think they are solid scholars or journalists. They don't find it necessary to resort to antisemitic stereotypes precisely because they know how to make fact-based arguments.

Danite, are you sure you are on the right thread ....???? Have you seen CHGODMK posting somewhere here...??? By the way, thanks that you are still thinking that I once was "normal" (long time ago...). I am (very much) looking forward to the day when we will also be able to see again a "normal" Danite... Have a "normal" evening....:)

Consult a dictionary please.

I wonder why you have such an obsession with Germany. The US has imposed on them against their will a democratic system. Unfortunately they hate the US for it. (In polls, when asked whom the Germans despise the most, the US comes in second to Israel, which is leading unrivalled). It is a generous country too. They paid for decades pensions to 50.000 former war criminals, in the year 1998 alone 13 billion Deutsche Mark. And they are a very tolerant people. To prepare for their future, given their extremely low birth rate, they are actually building more than 150 mosques. It is difficult to understand what your uneasiness could be, after all, more than 60 years after the ovens in Auschwitz were switched off, around 25% of stolen Jewish property has been returned. Kol hakavod!

Yes, Danite, I was refuting Jim's claim that Israel must accept the 1948 Partition Plan because we accepted it in 1948 - despite the fact that the Arabs did not accept it then and some will still not accept it today because they will accept no borders that encircle a Jewish state.

I am crying hard and same time I am some smiling. any question ! I MEAN ANY I WILL ANSWER. EVEN PERSONAL. GO...ASK. *** by the way, cheers :) I am cheeers a little bit tonight. even my wife let me a little cheers, tonight ! I wont thinkg middle east will mind too :)

Then I guess it would be just another unfortunate aspect of an unjust world if Swizterland was branded a racist state because 35% of its population support a party that wants to ban minaret construction right??? or maybe we should brand the swiss a nation of the criminally greedy for the way the eagerly accepted bars of gold made with the fillings torn out of the mouths of the Nazis victims right??? Thanks and write soon.

I am afraid you took me too literally there. I did not mean that withdrawing will lead to that kind of destruction. I actually agree with you that there is probably more danger to the state of Israel in staying rather then in leaving even though it will leave Israel only 15 km wide. I was just saying that since you are not facing any consequences may be you should not push too much.

Israelis believe that the Israeli PM should be REMOVED from office, no longer that he should step down. They do not want to leave Judea and Samaria to have a new Hamastan just a few miles away from Ben Gurion Airport. They do not trust Abbas. This shows that the Israeli people are knowing much more what is what than you seem to believe. Idiots are those who still have trust in this government. It would be idiotic for Israel, to give up anything, to make more unilateral concessions to the enemy, without knowing that the principal threat is removed. And I promise you, that in the following months, you will understand that the very existence of Israel is at stake, perhaps more than anytime since its foundation.

Toblerone is full of nuts and wraped too tight! His triangular argument melts in the heat of debate. cheers

"I don't understand how others cannot see it." (American in NY) I believe the answer is in Shlomo Gazit' article: "We have not yet freed ourselves from the mindset of an occupier facing the occupied. We are unable to relate to the Palestinians as an independent entity with its own national considerations. Our decision makers, on both the political and the military and intelligence levels, must be constantly reminded that Abu Mazen is no quisling nor collaborator... " (see #185) One has to keep in mind that a clear majority of the Israelis have never known Israel as it was before 1967, and have been brainwashed into believing that Israel and Eretz-Israel are the same and one thing, for so long that they are now convinced that Israel is expected to relinquish a part of its sovereign soil. And what with the massive 'alya' from Russia and Ethopia? "... On the contrary, the very act of making such strident public demands upon Abu Mazen is a sure recipe for causing his failure among his own people." (S. Gazit) That was in April 2004, two years before the Hamas victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, a little more than 3 years before it took complete control of the Gaza Strip. And there are still Israelis to say: "What? me worry? What is important is that the Temple Mount and Hebron are in our hands." Regards.

Among the more popular myths of the "Palestinians" is the myth that "Jewish settlements in the West Bank displaced "Palestinian" villages." Interestingly enough, NONE of the Jewish towns built in the West Bank since 1967 displaced a "Palestinian" village. They were built on vacant land.

Do you have some kind of "jones" after me or something??? What was that rant about last night? What dilema? Did I say I judge left or right according to where they stand on the paleastinians??? When did I ever say that??? Yes I am aware that one can be more right on some things and left on socio economics, I should know because I am as well and agree with your socio economic views.What the hell are you on about??? You have these paranoid outbursts and lack of anger management skills.And why are you still on me about swiss?? Will you get off it already??? He was normal before but after his absence he no longer is , so I adjust my views accordingly,is that too complex for you??

You are great!! Israel has every right to yehuda/ shomron per co author of 242. you are defined a racist for claiming israel's right to yosh the leftists are so indoctrinated by their haaretz propoganda it's really sad. Jews have to beg to live in hebron. jews have to beg to pray on the temple mount. the leftest are absoluely convinced that the 67 borders will bring lasting peace to the world. the leftests are just drunk!! Oslo and the leaving of gush katif brought such misery to israel, What are the leftests thinking?? Oslo even brought misery to the palestinians read what hader from nablus has posted. Hashem is really giving am yisrael a test!!

"where the antisemites, having laid the groundwork" I think you want us to accept that anyone who criticises the State of Israel is, by definition, an antisemite. Nice try. There are many sterotypes of Jews in common currency. I won't go over them here. It's a legitimate question to ask whether the actions of a nation of Jews play to these sterotypes.

It would be a big mistake to leave Jews behind in palestine.A recipe for more trouble.Hop you are well.Regards

Waht do you mean when you say the 48 borders? Do you mean the partition borders? Hiope you are well.

the King cast them out because of their treachery and he wont let them in. So we are stuck with this lot and need to make the best of it. However if the current King and the legion decided to disarm the Palis and make them a province, I woulnt object. But cows dont fly.

Of course saying that if israel leaves the west bank their will be world peace is total nonsense.That is a fairy tale the euros invent to relieve the anxiety their cowardice in the face of the muslim onslaught causes them.However even if it doesnt lead to peace, it will at least allow israel a more effective form of conflict management and get israel off the front pages for a while.Regards to both.

are a myth?where did you come from?you may say,shem,ham,and japheth are a myth as well.if you come from an ape.that ape came out of the ark[as you said,the noah and his ark were a myth].if you're an atheist?who created you then?if you're an hindu,you might have a good karma because you're a human and not a cockroach.

First of all posting #190 you rfer to is not mine. Second, I reread my posting and there is nothing I 'demand' of Israel save for being truthful and honest. All I asked was for was to deliver on promises made already and not hide behind empty slogans. I reading some of your responses to other postings it seems to me that all you do is rngage in name calling rather then engage in meaningful exchange of ideas based on merits.

and destruction on earth,tripple jump........the muslims!can't you see and hear about news about terror cause by muslims terrorists.is that good?look at all the countries the muslims have influenced that includes my country-philippines,how about afghanistan,iraq,pakistan,indonesia,and many others.can't you see it,tripple jump.the muslims are the trouble makers and not the jews.

axel i would have thought you would be the last person in the world qualified to lecture on tolerance.

I think in his/her real life Hader from Nablus is not Nablusi at all. You most likely will come to the same opinion if you read all the post of Hader.

I see mankind being tolerant and forgiving of one another. I also see my grandchildren growing in a world free of bigotry and hate. It's a good dream, as is yours.:)

Israel should stop playing the victim and announce that the losers will play by the rules of the winners; that is, Israel can pick and choose how much of its land it will give away. Israel isn't "conceding" or "giving up" anything; rather, it is being benevolent enough to give away some of its territory. When the Palestinians understand that, then they will have their state. As an "occupied" territory, as the Palestinians claim, the PA exists entirely at Israel's whim. Israel should make that absolutely clear in any negotiations. Israel should also offer the PA freedom on Israel's terms- a little land which will be contiguous and settler-free, or a lot of land that will have Israeli enclaves and IDF checkpoints. Then it will be up to the Palestinians to choose one or the other, but they can't have it both ways.

Your landscape is very beautiful. Let's give the credit for that to God. In such an environment of ethereal beauty it would be easy to be a neutral party. BTW, I wasn't trying to be mean, just point out each country could stand a degree of tweaking. Yours, mine, theirs.

Many Palestinians were forced to leave because of Arafat. Arafat brought pride to palestinians but he also brought misery to others. there never was any chance for freedom of speech and those that spoke out against the corruption were putting their lives on the line. Arafat's vision was not to really live in peace along with Israel and people who had the financial ability got up and left. How could there possibly have been a pro Israel party on the west bank like there are meretz and hadash that try to present the palestinian side within Israel. thousands of palestinians fled or were killed by arafat. I'm not convinced that if the IDF leaves the west bank cities if the PA is going to maintain law and order or if the PA is going to let gun slinging militias threaten peace loving palestinians?? Ideally the geneva/taba plan would be great if the palestinians could unite, however if we see what occurred in gaza where seculars, Christians are persecuted - occupation is better!!!

"We are asked not to blame a whole group of people for the acts of a few". Right, Lynn, you are 100 % correct, we shouldnt do so in a perfect world. Unfortunately we are far away from living in a perfect world. Therefore it's important to deal with reality and not a "fairy-tale" world.

Apparently, we have reached phase two of Talkback antisemitism, where the antisemites, having laid the groundwork, now feel free openly to proclaim antisemitic stereotypes and then call this not antisemitism but "perceived anti-Semitism." (post #218, viewerfromafar).

I gave accurate info on Swiss Gov. (swissinfo.com) Written in their own news articles. Just wanted to give you the info and where it was gleaned from. I have always had a problem with holier than though attitudes. There is no perfect country or leadership. Even the Swiss have their shortcomings.

"Why hasn't the Israeli govt. pressed the issue?' Great question. My best guess is: 1) The current idiot Israeli leadership wants to control all the Jews in the world. Wouldn't look good for them to admit that Jews can possibly live good lives somewhere else, beyond their socialist control. 2) The same morons are so sure 'the Arabs' (PA) are primitive barbarians that it hasn't occurred to them that pressing this issue, and the issue of minority rights in the PA, might yield positive results. I've also wondered why the Pal leaders didn't use the runup to disengagement to ask the Israeli govt to leave the Gaza Jews where they were. It would have made Sharon/Olmert look really bad had they done that - in effect siding with the Jews of Gaza against the government's paternalism. Of course, that would have taken a committment to protect them as a minority, which Hamas weren't ready to do.... So idiots on both sides blew a golden opportunity to promote real neighborliness.

"You today revealed your TRUE & hideous face, for ALL to see !!" I'm sure you believe that everyone who criticizes Israel has a hideous face, Judah.

Outside of these forums & despite healthy portion of twisted & ludicrous Israeli bashing rhetoric & media tendencies, the `understanding of the reality` ratio throughout the world (and especially where it counts the most-the leadership & decision makers around the world) is still very much clear in favor of Israel. However, we are simply drifted into an era where understanding of the situation (very, very complex situation), no matter how clear from the day to day coning or `little games` played by the Arab world is not enough by itself. It still requires `in your face` sacrafices before forcefully rejecting or responding to such coning or provocations. I understand the grave physical handicap of Gaza withdrawal, admit my failure in supporting it, & would insist `never again` under same circumstances with WB, that would threaten the hart of Israel. However, deap down it must have had helped Israel enormously in the multiple `change of hart` & support of `Israeli hand` departments.

One has to be completely out of his head to accuse an Israeli PM to negociate "over the very existence of Israel", and to believe that NOT freezing settlement construction can reduce the nuclear threat from Iran. Who should know better that someone from Frankfurt, that the greatest number, when skilfully manipulated, can also be the greatest idiot.

The Alice in Wonderland message # 187 was not from me, Jim. I have no idea what it was all about. It added a chunk of a genuine post I left yesterday to an unrelated news story. Life on Talkback gets curiouser and curiouser.

The article had actually very popularly explained the options the Israel has. Freezing future removable settlements (obviously except the major blocks & around Jerusalem indicated) & removal of illegal outposts that have to be removed anyway is not the total failure (always provided the at most security is accounted for everywhere). People have to realize the US is Israel`s partner & ally, but they have their own interests, responsibilities & ties in the int`l circles, sometimes they need an ammunition to `protect` Israel there. Besides, if Bush had made up his mind, he is like the charging bulldog: very hard to change his mind & relentless, especially if he understands he has his `Israeli dough` he can mold in practically every way & shape without much of Olmert`s ?I? in it. (the biggest drawback to Sharon). The Arabs will fail summit because of their historical attitude to peace with Israel genuinely in it, & because their radical part of the hydra machine will prevent so.

I continue to wonder why Israel doesn't press this issue? Why is not Israel promoting the idea that Jews who want to stay in the settlements can't stay, live in Palestine as citizens of the new state of Palestine. THey can maintain dual citizenship if they like... I suspect Israel doesn't push this idea because Israel is intent on gobbling up these settlements into Israel proper. But of course, something has to give. The resultant borders, if Israel annexes some of the larger settlements (like Ariel) would be quite untenable.

zeev, have looked at the link and others you refer to on his board. Very good. However, some of it is so obviouse, I don'tunderstand how others can not see it.

-but I absolutely agree, about Maale Adumim, Ariel, Gush Etzion as well as the other jewish settlements closest around Yerushalayim being exempted and staying permanently Israeli ! I stand by what I`ve said previously, Israel have to leave about 85% of Judea and Samaria plus Gaza for the PAL state, the arabs ought to accept that as a compromise for peace with our jewish nation.

yes many palestinians love the settlers. yes i hug a settler every day because my family and their livelyhood is thanks to the settlers. My life will be much worse as oon as that wall goes up. the setlers are against the wall. the wall came up because oslo-arafat terrorists sent terorists to blow up busses in tel aviv wake up and stop believing the haaretz propaganda. If a palestinian state comes about then the palestinians will regress hundreds of years back to the dark ages. many lefty israelis couldn't care less about the arabs. yes come see how many palestinians work in settlements. talk to us privately and ask how the settlers relate to us. these opinions cannot be stated publicly because the palestinian police would have israel supporting palestinians eliminated in 2 seconds, like they do toany palestinian that sells land to jews. the oslo accords made life much much worse for many palestinians the settlements assure us long term jobs and good lives

PETER SM asked "Each side is independently obligated,regardless? Could you give your sources for that?" Sure. It is right in the Road Map document. "In each phase, the parties are expected to perform their obligations in parallel, unless otherwise indicated." "in parallel" means that there are NO dependencies for one side to do ANYTHING before the other side does something. What you are claiming is that the tasks were to be done "in serial", where each side has the excuse not to do fulfill their own obligations until the other side does. The ONLY part of the Road map that is defined to be done "in serial" is when going to actions in the next phase. Phase 1 must be completed before Phase 2 can begin. Moving from Phase to Phase is to be done "in serial", while all of the actions defined within each phase is to be done "in parallel" without any other pre-conditions or obligations being met by the other side. This is what Israel agreed to do, no matter if YOU like it or not.

LEAVE WEST BANK AND GAZA borders and let those people live in Freedom!!!!!!!! Why u,israelis dont want to understand what U were searching for a so long time??? LAND AND PEACE!!!! here in UE the new jews are Pals living in this ashamed ghetto!!! PS: please dont search to understand politics in Bible!!

I guess none of you have any clue whats going on in the west bank and you keep believing the propaganda gideon levi sells you. Do you have any clue how many palestinians were murdered in the last 15 yrs by palestinians because they supported israel and were defined traiters. did you miss all the pictures of palestinians dragged in the streets, shot in the head and hung upside down because they were so called traitors. did you forget how many palestinians were killed yesterday by palestinians. Are you aware that there were zero road blocks prior to oslo and I could go to tel aviv anytime and only thanks to the horrific oslo accords arafat came in with 50,000 terrorists and he killed anyone who didn't go along with his terrorist ways. do you know how many christian arabs left ramala, el bira, bet jalla, bethlehem? Yes my life and many other palestinian lives were far better under occupation. yes palestinians are building with joy all the settlements and as long as they are

when i wrote that israeli policy is the one you espouse-one that by definition does not seek peace,but rather land-some of your best friends called me crazy.you can still read it in benziman.as to blood and hard labour-i say settlers spill less blood and labour than kibuzniks,for example,and that generally speaking,the more one has seen blood and gore,the less one loves it,though nuts abound.finally-we have a problem to solve-and if you show me how to realize your dearest wish-and indeed occupy the area from mesopotamia to the nile with no blood and mostly arab labour-i shall support the party of your choice,assuming you are israeli. n.b.why weren't you a combat soldier,seeing as you admire blood and living space above soft compromise and attempted accomodation?

Not only has "Jenin-massacre" Erakat recently thrown away his mask of benevolent diplomacy for peace. You today revealed your TRUE & hideous face, for ALL to see !!

Is there an Arab-Israeli organization that promotes integration into Israeli society, supports Israel in principle, and works to strengthen the ties between all citizens of Israel and Palestine? It would qualify for a ton of grant money, that's for sure...

-WHY do You demand deeds of Israel & nothing of the arab side ?

Hmm, isn't that about as admirable as the willingness to arrest thieves?

all those years ago israel has prospered wonderfully.it has sold a company to warren buffet for four billion dollars.it is the research centre for intel and has produced marvellous work.its gdp has rocketed.so what collapse are you and the good saint talking about? zeev you are hysterical.control yourself zeev.the sky is not falling down.

The other day as well Margie and it bears thinking and repeating what is unfolding in front of our eyes and ears. Finally it is just as your last line suggests. In effect, the dissolution of Israel is the messiah and we never knew it. Heavens above what are the leaders(thugs)trying to do)?

zeev it comes to this.you believe in the palestinians and i dont.you believe that you can deal with them and i would never trust them for one single minute. apart from your love of quotes there is no other difference between us.

zeev buddy you really must stop this hero worship of the saint.try and arrange your own thoughts and stop giving us canned wisdom.

Axel No point in denying it is there for all to know and see.Nevermind if you find tobleron's somewhat not correct,just look at your surrounding andthe rest of Europe as it is unfolding under your very nose. Now,don't go asleep on me,and take care.It is happening and has been for quite sometime now. You accept it or not,you will soon realize the truth.I,nor toblerone,has anything to do with what is the case.IT IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE. WAKE UP Axel,wake up....

"you have left be(sic) baffled" zeev.not sure what you mean zeev but if you are baffled then i am forced to enlighten you post haste. pakistanis in the uk are muslims who are refusing to accept a nation that has brought them in and housed them.they look back to the caliphate and days of islamic supremacy. the palestinians are the same.the difference is that unlike the pakis they do have a grudge and so we trying to mollify them is a waste of time. zeev perhaps you would be a good chappie and stop throwing quotes at us wholesale.do use your own limited ingenuity.

goldenberg Not only in France who are innundated by muslims over 6.000.000 + and the same in the UK 2.000.000 already,and I am not counting Germany,Austria,Netherlands,I can go ad-infinitum...And then the spread all over the rest of the world....

Wow a racist jew calling all arabs racist. You must feel better after you posted that

toblerone I did write and told him so.I mean about the thousands of Muslims living over there,causing troubles.Especially for such a small country eh? And no minarets are going to be allowed.We hope they stick by their dictum with the new party ensconsed.He saidoh no not at all,they can supposedly have a referendum...hahahah

"there are 350000 muslims 5% of the population but only two minarets.so rather unlikely that a minority can push this policy against the majority" If there is any "against", it is not muslims against christians, but tolerant against intolerant. Besides, all your posts reveal that you have only some inaccurate hearsay about what is going on in Switzerland, and are obsessed with the topic mainly as a distraction from the ME conflict. And there I rest my case.

Would these Israeli settlers be eligible for Palestinian citizeship? Dual citizenship?

notblackorwhite She wouldn't be able to respond with freedom as she does here.And there's the rub.. I'd be prepared to give her a PUSH AND HELP HELP HER ON HER WAY IN A HEART BEAT! She is as tough as an old boot is Durson..

Johnny Isn't'it the norm when troubles are ahead many world leader immediately become ill,and have to be hospitalized.Exactly and what better reason for Olmert who has already confessed he has a prostate cancer.Olmert don't be a sissy do it,AND DO IT NOW,AND CANCEL THE ANNAPOLIS TRAP!!Or,there will be harsh consequences ahead of you....

Land! kibush whoever you may be. And remember the land is not concidered occupied,but "Disputed" get that in your head and stop aggravating people here with such inane response...

While all the leaders of the western countries will condemn anti-Semitism aa an almost reflex action, one would have to wonder about their private conversations when faced with Israeli duplicity and double-dealing for all these years. I would be willing to bet that those leaders equate Israelis with Jews, and in that respect they may be frustrated with these "Jewish" actions but not surprised by them. Imagine what adjectives are attached to "..... Jew" when faced with with this duplicity again and again. There is a knee-jerk response of outrage to any perceived anti-Semitism in theses Talkbacks, but at the risk of increasing that outrage, I ask: are you surprised that the actions of the Israeli officials bring on the perception of the "slippery Jew".

Albert Because he is not a Braziian,but an englishman and I think his name is John Makie... No point in elaborating further...

Leave another part of our homeland? Dream on Olmert,Livni,Peres,Barak et al If you ever try,even an inch away your life will not be worth living. So,yirmiyahu NO DEAL!1

Axel One doesn't call 1.000.000 citizens a minority. You must be thinking of the very few who have erected some caravans. With what the stupid Govt is trying is not only foolhardy,but it will cause a civil strife of real proportions,and may end up IN A REAL CIVIL WAR.Fine for you to give advice here and speak about something you have no understanding or know not a lot..

Rice and co. Uproot a 1.00.000 Jews from their homes?Just you wait until the decent populace rise up,and pushes out the delinquent leaders who are supposed to take good care of its citizens. I say,throw the lot of them out,AND DO IT NOW!

So much for Mossad. Can you tell us anything about Shin Bet? Regards

trust me Well I hope your wods were sincere and not the reverse.but on reading on I assume yours is a warning?Quote: pumping,land,much more than needed will be provided.fear not and give free rein to your ids,at your discretion.remember-apres moi le deluge.remember also the injunction about pouring wrath.and if,many years from now,some historian kveches about a new march of folly,citing w.bank as example,well to err is human,to forgive divine,and the all-merciful will surely forgive you,brave vanguards of activist zionism. (trust me) So, your true face is definitely showing.And I for one do not trust you of course. All the twaddle of "apres mois le deluge"not to mention "to err is human,to forgive is divine"What the blazes are you referring?We have not enough land and we need it for our citizens who worked like slaves and by their blood endeavoured and won those patches of land.So,you would do well to remember...

Hader, the presumed Palestinian, you say settlers are good to you? that the occupation is good to you? that the IDF is good to you? My word! This is truly a first! ...well, I and everyone else will be foolish to believe you are a Palestinian !!!! What everyone knows is that: - Settlers have settled on STOLEN land, confiscated with bulldozers guided through by tanks and guns! - the IDF murdred scores of children and women, and many innocent men... and the excuses are so stupid to believe ! (like a child was shot after being MISTAKEN for an adult! or two boys were shot after they were spotted playing near what was BELIEVED to be a lunch rocket site!..) - the apartheid wall divided many families who can't now see each other.. and need a'permit' from your kind IDF ! - the settlers have destroyed Palestinians farms to drive them out of their land, they uprooted and burned down scores of olive trees .. and so on and so on.. DID YOU SAY YOU WERE PALESTINIAN? mon oeil !

sorry its me again. little before I send but something was wrong in the page. can you put this subject words on my first post as subject. thanks. sorry.

Why is it assumed by all that 100,000 Israelis will have to leave their homes if a Camp David Style agreement is made? Wouldn't their presence be good for the New Palestinian society and economy? Why should they have to leave. Do Arabs living in Vadi Ara have to leave????

There is no possibility of peace, stability and reconcilliation while Israel continues expanding settlements. Everyone knows this. Let's all do our part to put pressure on Israel in any way we can. To our fellow Jews, please challenge your rabbi if he preaches that that the land belongs to the Jews alone. Please correct him if he prays to God to defeat enemies. This not about defeat and victory. This is about peace with justice and reconcilliation between our peoples.

So the building contractors go on holiday. Big deal, the labourers get a few days off. Frozen ideas always thaw when intelligent people work around the mess made by Politicions, especially when the Republican Party has been rousted by the likes of the Democrats. Alls fair in war. Diplomats pack your bags and head west for Papa Bush is at Crawford with a great big spread. Eat, and remember, we will hold you all to task. Once Hermit is out so are you.

the post below , written by me 5 minutes ago while looked a photo on Ynets news. Jerusalem news, They post a photo which has Temple Mount in. I just wanted to share the post with you. but feel free to not publish. I just get angry at you, thats all :)tomorrow I forgive you ! BUT NOT TODAY :) *** after a long working day here, I wanted check the news. I never in interest with news, mostly ! I like photos, they talk more than words. well I cant read and understand good in english But it has nothing to do with this. a few times in my life, I have seen Israel in my dreams while sleeping. some were okey, some were not. anyway ! I like the word of "hope" I like the word of "dream" I like tthe word of "win" I wish we all catch our dreams and live with them as long as we want. it is sad and beautifull that we must always give fight for our dreams. some come true, some not. interesting part is its always hard to keep the most beautifull things long. here I am making on line wish that I hope Jews always keep The Temple Mount. well I am a little emoutinal today. *** I like religius people. such a good dreams they live in. well, long time ago, for a few months I have felt that feeling. just like you are living in wonderland. *** okey ! before I start talk nonsense and this post get BOOOM by Ynet, let me stop writing. I mean if you ask ! I do write more. But ! lets stop :) *** can I make a wish for myself ? I want a new car I want a new house with garden I want to see my doughters grand kids. well she is now 9 years old :) I talked like Jews, right. They love to live long :) so do I ! just to help to world :) *** anyway ! I would love to have 2-3 legal girl friends . one wife and a few legal ones. would be great. But ! I have to be rich to take care all of them. okey ! lets make another wish ! I like to have a lot money :) for them. not for me :) *** when I write I dont re-read before I submit, mostly. if you see some mistakes ! feel free blame on Ynet ! they play with my words once in a year :) *** can I make one more wish ? okey, thanks. I want to look at world as I am just looking now which has pure love. PURE LOVE Atilla Karagözoğlu

By the middle of the present century, between one-quarter and one-third of the population of France, Germany, and other European countries will be Muslim or of Muslim origin. (Laqueur, Changing Face of Antisemitism, Oxford University Press, 2006, p. 11). Europe is not in a position to take a "strong hand" in limiting immigration. Its population is declining. Germany, for example, will see its population drop from 82 million to 32 million by the end of the century if the current rate of decline in births continues. (ibid., p. 10). Europe needs these immigrants to fund the social safety net of the welfare state (I'm not using this term pejoratively). (ibid., p. 12). Projections like this are not always reliable, but since World War II serious projections have been reliable. (p. 11).

What kind of Palestinian Arab are you, who does know yet that Arafat is dead for already three years, who ignores that in Jan. 2005, six months before the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, a clear majority of Palestinians had elected as their President Mahmoud Abbas, the very same one the US President has adressed as a "man of peace", mentioning also "... the vision that so many Palestinians long for, and that is a society in which they can raise their children in peace and hope [...]" www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060920-1.html Have the settlers not told you yet?

Natallie, it is interesting that your bigoted attack was provoked by a meaningful conciliatory gesture of Olmert, as if you were irked at being upstaged.... Needless to say, had your victim been an Arab, my protestation would have been no less spontaneous.

You got me all confused here. You build, plant, and travel in Iraq because you are not civilized, or you have more guns, or because Iraq is not exactly your neighbour and you mentioned only your neighbours territory in your post?

I think it's about Hader went back on his medication. Obviously reality is too much for him. Perhaps he should be dismantled and taken away somewhere.

Natallie, It doesn't matter whether people on a Haaretz talkback wouldn't have been so upset if you had written the post about Arabs. Arabs, Jews, Indians, whatever, there's no point trying to defend yourself, your post was bigoted and disgusting. Read it back to yourself and for god's sake think! If you actually think its ok to submit a post like that should you be taking part in political debate at all?

'G-D and His WORD command us to settle and dwell in Eretz Yisrael' So why are you still in New Zealand?

have you any idea of the logistics involved ? go and learn about rehousing 250,000 people the cost and how long it would takje ? till then your post is total and utter stupidity !

You have left be baffled: What has the Pakistani population in Britain, to do with our settlers? And why should we ask the British anythink? "The effort to hold the conquered territories proves to be a trap, a burden not to be borne without degradation, corruption, and perhaps even collapse." in an 'Open Letter' to PM Menahem Begin, 1980 by Jacob Leib Talmon, then Professor of Modern History at the Hebrew U of Jerusalem, and recipient of the Israel Prize in 1957. www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/prophetic_message.html That was in 1980, two years before the first Lebanese war against Arafat's PLO, seven years before the first Palestian uprising, and 27 years before Hamas took full control of the Gaza Strip. In 1980, no one had yet heard the name 'Hamas'. Until 1987. A trap indeed, which our irresponsible leaders have unwittingly set for themselves and for us all - and from which they have not the slightest idea on how to take us out. What help would that be, asking the British about their Pakistanis?

Hi Jim, did you really read all the posts of "Hader/hader" on this thread...??? I mean, it would be really nice if a Palestinian Arab would say so many nice things about Israel and Israels settlement policy, but if you read them again, don't you think it's a bit too much "candy" to be true...??? :) Or in other words, if "Hader" is really a Palestinian from Nablus, then I am the king of Tonga. P.S. Since last August, I know now where Murfreesboro is located. (We saw the sign on the Highway when we drove close to Nash- ville, and I remembered the name from your posts...). Man, it was hot like hell that day (at least 108)....:)

A recent poll by Maagar Mohot revealed that 55% of Israelis want Olmert to be removed as PM. A similar number stated that he is ready to foolish concessions to Abbas in order to stay in office. 65% opposed a larger withdrawal of Judea and Samaria and the same number believes that Hamas would soon take over all the territories. 77% believed that Abbas is unable or unwilling to stop terror. These are devastating figures for the Israeli PM. How can such a person conduct negotiations over the very existence of Israel, especially under the nuclear threat from Iran?

not everyone who plays devils advocate is in the mossad. its obviosly ridiculous to dismantle ramallah!! just as ridiculous to dismantle Tel Aviv or Ariel. bottom line is that oslo accords clearly made life much worse for the palestinians - nothing to do with the settlers. It was the fault of arafat. had he taken the example of Begin and ben gurion who put their differences aside and decided to unite the armed forces and put money into building schools and hospitals . yasser instead choose to concentrate on hate towards israelis and palestinians that differed from him. the palestinians must learn what tolerance is. there is great potential for a palestinian state only if they can unite and truley declare peace with israel. if that happens the middle east will prosper., And yes tolerance can also include recogizing israel's right to exist. israel can be a great asset to the palestinians as a big brother to emulate in so many ways, free speech, education,

Lynn, are you sure you don't wanna apply for Swiss citizenship...??? Your knowledge of our country is rather impressive (your # 157 to toblerone...). No kidding this time... P.S. Please don't blame us for our beautiful landscape, I am not sure whether we really had something to do with that....:)

Ilya, I got your point. However, I am pretty sure that even if the brigde falls apart, the 2 cities will not be destroyed. Look, the West Bank Palestinians are (from a military viewpoint) no danger whatsoever to Israel. If Israel one day withdraws from the West Bank, and the attacks against her continue (I mean, not just 1 or 2, which is probably unavoidable) from there, then Israels army will be back in Nablus, Ramallah and Jenin very, very quickly. So the idea that Israels existence would be endangered by a withdrawal from the West Bank is a rather preposterous one, I am afraid. (especially if Israel keeps some of the strategic important settlement blocks along the "Green Line"). On the contrary, I would say (for demographic reasons), her existence as a Jewish state is much more endangered by a non-withdrawal.

It isn't the Philistines' property. Look at their own Charter from their own web site: "THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL CHARTER" (Al-Mithaq Al-Kawmee Al-Philisteeni), Adopted in 1964 by the 1st Palestinian Conference Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area. http://www.un.int/palestine/PLO/PNA2.html Prof. Eugene Rostow, former US Undersecretary of State, a key author of UN Resolution 242, international law authority, Yale University: "Israel has a stronger claim to the West Bank than any other nation or would-be nation [and] the same legal right to settle the West Bank, the Gaza strip and east Jerusalem as it has to settle Haifa or west Jerusalem." Yup- MY land. Better get used to it.

better start removing them...

You can swallow Hader hook line and sinker if you like. I don't.

israeli soldiers have never raped palestinian women.do we have any excuse to abuse them? the rape of kashmiri women by indian soldiers is rather common. so why does a member of the sikh faith hate the israelis.what have they done to us sikhs?

of kashmir do we have any justification for slamming the jews over settlements?we have 500000 indian soldiers occupying kashmir.

or, should we change arabs to jews???

I realize that you are not responsible for the current unpleasent situation which has beset the Israeli/Palestinian relationship and the peace process. You are stuck with the situation and there are not many options and none of them are clearly the correct path. I think that this is why you are more likely to simply call names rather than offer any anything thoughtful. You simply have nothing better to add to the debate.

Who said anything about the 1967 borders? I didn't! Israel should give up all her conquered territory and go back to that which is authentically Israel, i.e the 1948 borders. Everything else is conquered territory, acquired by war, illegally held, illegally defended, and is an abomination before G_d and an insult to Judaism. If Israel's government cannot do what is right, then she is not Jewish at all, but is using the faith to further her own selfish ends. I believe they call it "expansionist zionism".

if you live anywhere near ranana and you want to do something kind you can visit my brother at bet levenstein. go to any settlement and see how many settlers are so kind to us palestinians i wish i could live on theisraeli side of the wall. you know as well as i know that the wall only was built after yasser arrafat sent hundreds of terrorists to kill jews. yasser killed many palestinians as well do you really think that life is better in the gaza strip after the idf left?? Do you really really think that yasser arafat made life better for our people??? the worst possible thing for the palestinians is for the idf to leave. yes we need the occupation!!! We don't need yasser!! yasser helped his close friends and killed many palestinians. the arabs get along very well with most of the settlers. yes some settlers are mean to arabs but most are very nice. We hope we can build many more homes and continue to have a good relationship with the jews.

Our trouble is that we hear the politicos and the extremists all the time, since they are the ones who make the news. I, for one, would like to hear more from Hader and others about what it is like for Palestinians who live and work and play in the settlements. A voice of moderation is a welcome breeze in this storm torn environment. Regards and Salaam, Jim

If Israel wants to 'freeze' settlement expansion why 'declare'? just do it. She also declred 'dismantling' of 'illegal' settlements and we all know what transpired . And why declare before the Annapolis meeting, what's so special about that unless this is a PR stunt like many before which is Israel's substitute for diplomacy. It all means nothing and amounts for nothing.

I am the same way. Even though, I have an opinion on inner motives as well I prefer to keep it to myself. I did not mentioned inner motives in my post that was just an impression of her that I get from her posts. I also asked you to use your own classification and put Natalie in one of the two categories of yours but you used your right to remain silent because you probably know too well that everything you say will be used against you on this talkback.:)

I wonder if the Israeli trespassers (aka WB settlers) are aware that the day that they must start packing is about to arrive. They've been conned by their leaders and the government of the homeland.

"Reasons to dismantle the "Arab" settlements" Perhaps the Zionist who masquerades as Mossad Fake Clickfool has been away on holiday, It seems he`s been much missed. Talk of Mossad is a dead giveaway. I rarely refer to them directly and nearly always in the context of the bungled attempt to steal a passport in New Zealand. Mossad are the Keystone Kops of world intelligence services, and aren`t worth a second of anyone`s comment.

in germany. i have heard it is ok as long as you stick to german areas.

Yes, there are still many people in the surrounding countries who don't even accept the 1967 borders. Do you really think that PM Begin didn't know that, when he signed with President Anwar Sadat? "When the Palestinians accept the 1967 borders and show they can live in peace alongside us with those borders." (Tzfonit) Tell me please, How will we know they have accepted? "... an agreement can only be achieved between two SOVEREIGN parties, Israeli and Palestinian. And it can only result from fair negotiations." Shlomo Gazit, April 4, 2005. www.geocities.com/keller_adam/gazit.htm S. Gazit is a retired Major General, he has served as the first Coordinator of Government Operations in the territories (1967-74), went to be Head of Military Intelligence (1974-79), and then, President of Ben Gurion University. He is now on the staff of the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies of the Tel Aviv University.

someArabs left with the same ethics and morals. It takes two sides to negotiate.

Johnny, there seems to be a certain dispute between Cheney and Condoleezza Rice over the Annapolis meeting. For me, to attend Annapolis makes only sense, when there is a clear commitment by the US, that Iran will never be allowed to get nuclear weapons. It now emerges however, that there will be only a lukewarm US strategy, calling for countries like Germany, which is the closest accomplice of the mullah system in the West, to abide by tougher sanctions. The outcome of this is so uncertain, that Israel cannot risk its existence by allowing Hamastan and thereby Iran in Judea and Samaria and in visual range of the Knesset. As long as the Iranian threat is not eliminated, Israel should make no concessions at all. It seems that Cheney is right, who considers Annapolis as a fig leaf to go for Iran.

No civilized human being is permitted "to build, plant,or travel" on his neighbor's property without consent of the neighbor. Not even if he has more guns than his neighbor. Your dominion is temporary, so get used to it! The land of Israel is your land? Sure! like Great Britain belongs to Normandy! Ref: 1066. Sell that to the British if you can!

why do you lecture us? when you let the muslims have enough minarets to keep the 350000 muslims happy then come and bore us to tears with your interminable lectures.

Can someone name one thing the arabs have done to show they want peace??? Was it firing rockets constantly?? Shooting at israeli soldiers?? STILL not returning the one soldier they kidnapped despite israels letting go of countless terrorists and murderers??? Or was it saying they will never recognize israel BEFORE A PEACE PROCESS EVEN BEGINS!!!!?!?!?

While israel is refusing to build homes and schools for its cities in the west bank, and while it threatens its own peoples security by removing roadblocks (WHICH ALWAYS HAS LED TO INCREASE IN TERRORISM IN THE PAST), what have the arabs done as a goodwill gesture??? Complain israel isnt freeing enough murderers?? Fire rockets continuously?? Shoot at israeli soldiers??? ISRAEL SHOULDNT DO A SINGLE THING IF THE ARABS WONT DO ANYTHING IN RETURN!!!!

on illegal immigrants. Basically the Swiss Gov can now lock up a family for up to two years before deportation. That would include children too. (swissinfo.com)

While land violations were going on all the time, I dont get it, if the west cant be impartial on this issue how can can they stop terror from radicals, Im confused, I thought the US were byassed but the EU seemed to be more objective, this whole strartegy is also responsible for Palestians turning to Hamas, if you can call it strategy.

And what is so psychologically interesting, Natallie, is that one of your most venomous posts to date should be in response to the first meaningful and effective conciliatory move that Olmert has made. Yet you are perversely relating to it as if you had been double-crossed.... (Needless to say, had your victim of this vile bigotry been an Arab, my shock would have been no less.)

dont be a pedant axel.germans have few children and the muslims have many.what documentation do you need?you are finished. i understand there are many germans in minneapolis.perhaps you would care to join them. if however you have a german nationalist record then dont bother.the americans will not like you.

So Israel "will also declare its willingness to dismantle illegal West Bank settlement outposts." Kind of like my willingless to retire at age 40 you mean?