Israel official reply on Goldstone Gaza report: Probe biased, flawed

It,s February 2nd 2010 but still no state bearing the Palestine coat of arms or Islamic red crescent 62 years after the League of Nations mandate of May 1948,how ironic when one thinks of all the death caused by a stupid backwards 6th century ideology ?

May 1948 ,two states living side by side ,in peace and prosperity ,do you have a problem with dyslexia or are you just plain and simple stupid?

Others are building tunnels in Hamastan and making huge pay packets from American taxpayers dollars ,but hang on it,s Israel,s fault ,the mind boggles at such stupidity .

So what,s your point Natallie as rumor has it that you personally will oversee Hamas war crimes ,yes?

So Peter Wallace is now taking responsibility for Hamas war crimes ,how wonderful .

Hamas sent crude non-directional,controllable Qass ams into civilian populations in southern Israel but this is fine in directrob,s analysis ,they weren,t meant to hit their targets it was just a silly stupid game ,go away.

Hey Labhras ,you really are stupid as Israel has taken action against two Army officers ,so what will your ilk do about Hamas thugs who sent Qassams into Askelon and Sderot ,Israeli civilian populations ,nothing ,so spare the hypocrisy please ?

June 5th, 1967, Darthie. 1) Both Israel and Jordan were HCPs. 2) Israel and Jordan came to blows over the West Bank. Article 2 therefore came into play on June 5th 1967 i.e. GCIV became applicable in the West Bank on that date. DZ: "Before it came to blows Jordan had officially repudiated any claims to the territory that it had earlier seized without authorization." FACTUALLY incorrect, of course, because in June 1967 Jordan was certainly still insisting that it had annexed the WB. IN LAW your point is irrelevent. Art 2: "the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties" According to THAT line of text the territory did NOT have to "belong" to any HCP; it is enough that two HCPs are fighting over it. And ONCE that condition is met you MUST go to Art 6 to make GCIV cease to be applicable. You. Are. Wrong.

The Jews have a 3000 year connection.Camera is an org for fairness in ME reporting because there exist a bias against Israel by the Pals media circus which rewrites history.The mufti of Jerusalem was a nazi and gave Hitler the idea of the final solution. His nephew Arafat,Egyptian born both members of the nazi Muslim brotherhood crafted together a people and engulfed them in a cult of hate. one half million Jews were etnically cleansed from the arab world and a small number of arabs left at the urging of the muslim brotherhood.Arabs entered Israel after 48 because of the prosperity.Hamas killed more arabs and shot rockets at Israeli children for 8 years. Where were your comments then. Israel has a mission to save this planet from a dark ideology that mingled nazi and muslim brotherhood and wants to evelope the world in darkness and destroy western freedoms of speech,press,gay,women,religious rights and cultural diversity.Israel is the obstacle to Sharia law destroying the west-WAKE UP

The Jews have a 3000 year connection.Camera is an org for fairness in ME reporting because there exist a bias against Israel by the Pals media circus which rewrites history.The mufti of Jerusalem was a nazi and gave Hitler the idea of the final solution. His nephew Arafat,Egyptian born both members of the nazi Muslim brotherhood crafted together a people and engulfed them in a cult of hate. one half million Jews were etnically cleansed from the arab world and a small number of arabs left at the urging of the muslim brotherhood.Arabs entered Israel after 48 because of the prosperity.Hamas killed more arabs and shot rockets at Israeli children for 8 years. Where were your comments then. Israel has a mission to save this planet from a dark ideology that mingled nazi and muslim brotherhood and wants to evelope the world in darkness and destroy western freedoms of speech,press,gay,women,religious rights and cultural diversity.Israel is the obstacle to Sharia law destroying the west-WAKE UP

As Stephen has realized you have not read it and are merely reporting second hand accusations borrowed from god knows where. "i have read the mind numbing report" Cipora "according to goldstone, there were no hamas combatants in gaza" That's why the report dedicates dozens of pages detailing Hamas crimes in Gaza? "the report excludes and denies all facts that might be expultaroty for israel. the warnings by phone or leaflets are irrelevant" See page 13 section 5. and between pages 252 and 162 are numerous acknowledgments and details re leaflets phones etc. "the booby trapped houses are also irrelevant" See page 141: "The Mission notes that the existence of booby-trapped houses is mentioned in testimonies of Israeli soldiers collected by Breaking the Silence." You have not read the report madam. Here it is: http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf

Israel government attitude is that it does no wrong whatsoever. This probe on Goldstone is just not worth the paper is written on.

The message was clear to everybody except their apologists. Expect reprisals when firing on Israeli civillians or kidnapping Israelis for ransom.

and fight amongst them but cries war crime when a country tries to stop them. Why not terrorists supporters run the UNHRC.

First, what is the source of your quote? I question its authenticity. With regard to "taking land" 242 clearly states "inadmissible" which does not mean "illegal". Since the author's chose their words carefully they could have said "illegal" but they didn't. Why didn't they use the term "illegal"? Because you can't it would have the effect of rewarding the aggressor in a war. It takes away one the consequences of starting a war. The country defending itself could win the war,and would have to give back the aggressor's land thereby removing the consequence. Any aggressor country could start a war because they have nothing to lose, they get their land back even if they lose the war! That's why you cannot say all land acquired though war is illegal. That was why in 242 the word "inadmissible" was used and "illegal" was not.

"... Israel will in all probability realize that the whole world is now looking-over-its-shoulder, and that another performance like Caste-Lead, involving a captive victim, will not be countenanced..." Unfortunately, you don't realize that the intensity of rocket fire Israel endured for 7 years has been reduced dramatically --- kind of like your ability to engage in rational thought.

"The Settlements are on illegally gained territory--IE GAINED THROUGH WAR OR ILLEGAL ANNEXATION" However, territory gained through negotiations is not. Jordan gained the territory through war and kicked all the Jews out. Jordan attacked the Jews again and they were able to reclaim their own properties. Who's property do you think was gained, dunce?

" #160 SDHD---4TH GC Art 49 says they are illegal. dont argue with me." Actually, Article 49 doesn't mention Israel. Again, the Jews were kicked out by Jordan for 19 years. The 4th Geneva Convention doesn't say it is illegal for them to reclaim their properties, dunce.

"Did Israel make Hamas fire rockets for 7 years, with a massive crescendo of rocket fire a week before Cast Lead? Unfortunatlly the answer is YES!!!! How you ask? By destroying hundreds of villages and evicting their inhabitants." In other words, the answer is NO. Your fictitious interpretation of events doesn't turn Hamas into automatons who are not responsible for their own actions.

#43 You obviously didn't watch telly then - it was on 24/7 for all the world to see how Israel conducted herself!

... Israel will in all probability realize that the whole world is now looking-over-its-shoulder, and that another performance like Caste-Lead, involving a captive victim, will not be countenanced...

too bad your friends refused/refuse to negotiate borders meanwhile:- 1.Jewish settlement in West Bank and Gaza Strip territory has existed from time immemorial and was expressly recognised as legitimate in the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Jewish people's ancient homeland. 2.Some Jewish settlements, such as in Hebron, existed throughout the centuries of Ottoman rule, while settlements such as Neve Ya'acov, north of Jerusalem, the Gush Etzion bloc in Judea and Samaria, the communities north of the Dead Sea and Kfar Darom in the Gaza region, were established under British Mandatory administration prior to the establishment of the State of Israel. 3.Professor Eugene Rostow, former Under-Secretary of State for Political Affairs has written: "the Jewish right of settlement in the area is equivalent in every way to the right of the local population to live there" (AJIL, 1990, vol. 84, p.72).

Hezballah chose to fire next to the UN compound,the UN soldiers were prevented from leaving etc etc etc. Every resposible country must have plans for dealing with threats to its civillians. Hezballah,Iranian puppets doing their bidding,chose war they got it. How many times do you need to be reminded killing Jews is no longer a free kick.Whether it is pogroms in the Arab world or the rest of the world or blowing up a Jewish center in Argentina,that party is over.Nasrallah saying he wants all Jews to move to Israel to save him hunting them down tells any non bigott what he is about. Shelling Israeli civillians to start a war and using cluster munitions against Israelis comes with consequences. Securing means just that. Nasrallah the victorious understands,he stays heroically hidden.

israel cannot use a dresden strategy on gaza. such would be a war crime post geneva. nor would i personally advocate such a policy. gaza is not the third reich. hamas and the other terror groups have a similar mentality. yet they do not have the same war machine. thank g-d, israel managed to destroy many missiles at the very start of the operation. the operation was more difficult than has been reported. there were many tunnels and large numbers of booby trapped houses and mosques. yet, israel managed. regards, cipora p.s. the so-called great powers commit war crimes with impunity. so does the muslim world. israel must strive to be better.

i have read the mind numbing report. according to goldstone, there were no hamas combatants in gaza. nor were any houses or mosques used as repositories for missiles, ready to fire. indeed, the very term "missile" rarely appears. all hamas "witnesses" are deemed to be trutstworthy. there are no liars among them, not even the known liar obeida. the entire report is so one sided that any truth it might contain is sullied. israel is pronounced guilty of all charges. yet this was supposed to be a fact finding mission. it was not supposed to act as a tribunal. much of the report reads like some war novel. the report excludes and denies all facts that might be expultaroty for israel. the warnings by phone or leaflets are irrelevant. the booby trapped houses are also irrelevant. it would take many posts to respond to all allegations. this will be the job of israel's legal team. i, too respect you much. shavua tov, sweet stephen, who has maintained his humanity.

"Do you see a trust issue here? When Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel why would the Israelis be so open to "open borders". When Israel offers a hand of peace and gives the Palestinians control of Gaza and the answer is putting Hamas in power and the firing of rockets then what do you expect? BTW - Hamas the elected body of Gaza does not want a negotiated settlement." Israel covertly calls for the destruction of Palestinians, the words have no meaning. Its actions. Try going through the records and see who kills more of who. As far as the palestinians and who they elect, thats not your concern nor is it Israels concern . No one tells you who you should cast your vote for when you send your absentee ballot in to vote in your Likud party and no one should tell the Palestinians who they can vote for. As far as shelling goes, there was a 12month cease fire when Hamas was first elected. So BS 2 that. Israel kidnapped a slew of politicians the first week.

"8 Years of bottle rockets that killed less than 20 people is not an excuse to massacre upwards of 1000+ people." - Marc Leb Nor is it something that can be ignored. Those were 20 people who didn't deserve to be denied. The Goldstone Report was adamant about the suffering of Israeli citizens, especially the children subjected to the threat of rocket attack. "Israel went after the civilian population." - Marc Leb A simple comparison of statistics from the siege of Jenin and Gaza prove that the goal in Jenin was to take out the terrorists and in Gaza the goal was to punish civilians rather than take out the terrorists. "To punish them for voting for a party that wouldn`t toe the line like Fatah did." - Marc Leb The irony is that in September and October of 2008 Hamas was determined to enforce the cease fire and did. That is why Israel had to break the cease fire in early November to incite a cause to justify Cast Lead which it had been planning for months before.

"I hope the IDF after-action report is better than this story. "We can`t shoot straight" isn`t a real good reason for destroying a building and food source. And speculation that Hamas was storing explosives among the sewage is hardly a reasonable defense." - Mark of Lewiston Can't you stop thinking long enough to believe?

Amongst the 'proofs' is that it was not an air strike, possibly by an F-16, but an Artillery barrage which caused one instance. . . The 'finding' that the Goldstone Report is 'wrong' is made. But not that the damage done was done. Main Entry: Sophism 1 : an argument apparently correct in form but actually invalid; especially : such an argument used to deceive 2 : sophistry Main Entry: Sophistry 1 : subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation 2 : sophism Got it? Israel didn't blow up the place by an air strike as Goldstone said, it blew it up with an artillery barrage. Ergo, Goldstone was wrong and nothing happened. See: Sophistry, Sophism.

DZ: "The settlements are precisely defined in the International Law as having NO LEGAILTY." Not true; the colonization of occupied territory is clearly PROHIBITED under Article 49 of Geneva Convention IV, which is Int'l Treaty Law. The confiscation of private property is also PROHIBITED under the Hague Reguls IV, and so any settlement built on confiscated Pal land is clearly illegal. The occupying power is also PROHIBITED under the same Hague Regs IV from changing the status of "public land", and so any Israeli colony build on "state land" is also clearly illegal. DZ: "That is the only language used in reference to settlements." And I'll wager that your "references" will all turn out to be POLITICAL statements of POLICY, and not AUTHORITATIVE statements of LAW. The ICJ advisory opinion in 2006 (as authoritative a statement as you can get) clearly states that they are ILLEGAL under int'l law, and not merely ILLEGITIMATE.

the red carpet to your speeches flows from our veins, and for your "Geneva convention", too. So, whoever is in charge of that convention better remember cause there are hard limits on what is acceptable. The Rome has taken the world from its screws 2000 years ago and it took about 2000 years to put it back in. Let us not repeat the same mistake again.

SDHD: "Jordan captured the West Bank and kicked out every single Jew in 1948" Note the key word: "Jew". SDHD: ", attacked Israel again in 1967 and lost." Note that the key word has now mutated into: "Israel". SDHD: "You`re saying it was illegal for Jews to reclaim their properties? " Note that the key word has now magically changed back to: "Jews". The trick only works if "Jews" = "Israel", precisely because it is ISRAEL that is attempting to colonize (and hence annex) the West Bank. But "Israel" does not equal "Jews", and that's why SDHD has to play his ludicrous game of Now You See It, Now You Don't. But like all tricks it becomes obvious once the sleight-of-hand is revealed.

I'm questioning authenticity of the quote itself. Now besides the sarcasm are you going to give us the source? The word "inadmissible" does not mean "illegal". They chose their words carefully if they meant "illegal" they would have said that. Why didn't they? Because if you make it illegal to acquire land in war you take away the consequence of starting a war. In essence you reward the aggressor. They have nothing to lose by starting a war. A country that simply defends itself and wins, would have to give back the land they won from the aggressor, thereby removing the consequence the aggressor should suffer because they started the war in the first place. That's why the word "inadmissible" was used and the "illegal" wasn't. Get it?

Let's see, May 15th, Gaza fired on by the IDF, 3 seperate locations, several injured May 20th, IDF shells gaza, several locations, kills several May 21st, IDF fires on fishing boats, invades Gaza and destroys crops, shells and rockets several locations, and sprays bullets around. If you want me to go on, I will, but the point is pretty clear.

like with felonies, subsequent actions, even by others, that can be traced back to the felony, are the responsibility of the person who committed the felony. If that happens, then due to the fact that Israel aquired territory by force which was an illegal act (see the UN charter), and then set out to change the ethnic makeup of the aquired territories (see Geneva conventions) by refusing to allow civilians to return to the area after the end hostilities (again Geneva conventions), and crimes that Hamas, or Fatah, or any subsequent group formed due to those acts, commits will be found to be the fault of Israel. I hope they stay with the principle of 'you are responsible for your own actions'.

anti-Semitic incidents when it was compiling its statistics? It definetly would have if he had come to different findings. It would be really interesting to find out if they called the hunger strike by Hedy Epstein an 'attempt to delegitimise Israel' and therefor an anti-Semitic incident.

Thanks, Labhras. Since a friend gave this to me (and I read Michael Parenti's "Inventing Reality: The Politics of the Mass Media"), I've gained a whole new outlook. People who engage in such deceit only highlight their inability to make an honest counter-point or support their own position using the facts. If you want to understand Israel`s "response", then you should read the playbook used to craft it: 25 Tactics for Truth Suppression http://benfrank.net/disinfo/ If they truly thought their hands were clean, they would welcome an investigation, instead of refusing to cooperate with and trying to obstruct the efforts of those investigating the matter.

The corrupted Goldstone was not brave to say in the first sentence that Gaza suffers because a violent leadership has faith only in violence, Time to undust Gene Sharp: http://www.progressive.org/mag/intv0307 Q: What about Israel/Palestine? You?ve done some work there, too, and worked with Mubarak Awad, who has been the most ardent Palestinian proponent of nonviolence. Sharp: Mubarak did his first little booklet on non­violence during the first Intifada in the early ?80s. I was there in the mid-?80s on at least three trips, and met with people in the West Bank and Jerusalem. I also met with Israelis. I spoke at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and even spoke at the Israeli Institute of Military Studies. Most of the methods?90 percent of the methods?used in the first Intifada were that of nonviolent struggle. But Fatah leaders had this faith in the religion of violence. It was absolutely the worst thing they could have done.

It's been going on for 40+ years. Bottlerockets - YES bottlerockets which have more chance of sending Israelis into shock than killing anyone are acts of Resistance and Retribution FOR THE OCCUPATION. Do you understand that. The Palestinians don't have the basic rights that Israeli Jews or Israeli Arabs have. Give them the basic rights and the right to immigrate into Israel or allow them their own state, then the violence will stop.

"He expressed his prejudices before he even started." Untrue. "He chose to ignore evidence that Hamas chose to fight amongst civillians without uniforms and its consequences." Untrue. "He also ignored the widely reported that the Hamas high command was camped out in the Al-Shifa Hospital, which would of course constitute a war crime." Widely disseminated by whom? 'Widely reported' doesn't quite cut it. [Suddenly you worry about war crimes?] "All Goldstone had were staements by Palestinians in Hamas ruled Gaza thats why he called it a report." That's who live in Gaza...Palestinians. He also saw with his own eyes the destruction of water treatment facilities, industrial areas, agricultural lands and UN compounds/schools. "He chose to fall asleep when being presented with evidence on Qassams on Sderot." Nonsense.Uncorroborated nonsense. "thats why he called it a report" More rubbish. He was tasked with providing a report. R-E-P-O-R-T

They still took place---what some other army might or might not have done is moot. "If your intelect does not get it, then there is no hope for you."aby Nothing wrong with my "intellect". Sort of like a bank robber saying--you were lucky it was me --- I know bank robbers who would have cleaned you out. Drop your "intelect" and try using your common sense---???.

Well, boy John, while I am aware of your impressive international legal credentials, have you even looked up the legal definition of High Contracting Parties that you use as the argument on how the 4-Geneva attaches ? High Contracting Party in International Law means parties to any international agreement which have both signed and ratified it. Israel was one legal contracting power. Before it came to blows Jordan had officially repudiated any claims to the territory that it had earlier seized without authorization. So, please enlighten me, who was the other HCP ?

perched right on top of your second quote by Amb Goldberg. Hard to believe you "missed it" --???.

but i wonder if the arming of those "blessed bombs" is as solemn and detailed as those for the "holy hand grenade". if they are, then i doubt very much if i could manage its use... for the tears in my and pain in my sides. those sorts of weapons are devastating. cheers!

Taking land from either side is not prohibited in 242. That's why the word "inadmissible" is used. That does not mean "illegal". Why didn't you provide the source of your quote(from Lord C)? I have not seen that particular quote before. I question its authenticity. I see no need for sarcasm in this discussion, unless you have something to hide.

ie, "Re: annexing. This would be a national suicide. Surely, you do not believe that sane people anywhere in the world would want anything to do with it, do you ?" ed It appears that since the birth of Israel it,s leaders have been sufficiently sane to want it--all of it. And yes you are right--it will end up being national suicide---better tell them to stop taking it. Who did you say was dreaming.

You are not an very honest person. Even you once admitted that Hamas continued to fire during the ceasefire, but made the ridiculous claim that becuase it was a 99% reduction that was ok. Well that wasn't ok and Israel reduced their raids by 99% also.

along with a thorough explanation of why they didn't get Rid of the terrorist/cowards that still run it... Wars are f**ked up, most of us agree, but the point of it is to destroy your enemies. Hamas still rules gazans with a clenched fist and is daily spewing hatred to it's neighbor. Where are the Pals? Why can't they stop Hamas? Because they are Hamas, truth be said, they're lucky Israel decided to halt the demolition of Gaza To build a parking lot...

I did not state that settlements were legal. They have no legal authority in the same sense that a gay marriage may not be recognized in some countries like Ireland. All it means that the issue has to be resolved some day and its legal status clarified. In reference to the Jewish Settlements that are located on the disputed lands, the UNSC has repeatedly taken the position that direct negotiations without prejudice between Israel and the Palestinians is the only way that this would ever be addressed. This implies that upon a permanent peace agreement some settlements may be agreed upon as staying put and others may be subject to removal in an exchange for some lands, money and other considerations. Beware of the arguments you invoke. I can also use the same argument: please show me which law equates no legality with illegality. Such a proposition would be laughed out of any civil, common or criminal law anywhere on the planet. Checkmate.

The discussion is about taking land from either side of the Armistice line. Caradon adresses that issue in explaiming why he set no borders. Try to keep up Mark--Georgia is depending on you.

Priceless.

The rest of the planet at one time believed that the earth was flat and that slavery was sanctioned by the Bible. Got better arguments that this ? Re: annexing. This would be a national suicide. Surely, you do not believe that sane people anywhere in the world would want anything to do with it, do you ? I think you are the one dreaming.

On October 29, 1969, for example, the British Foreign Secretary told the House of Commons the withdrawal envisaged by the resolution would not be from "all the territories." When asked to explain the British position later, Lord Caradon said: "It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4, 1967, because those positions were undesirable and artificial." "Amb. Goldberg explained: "The notable omissions-which were not accidental-in regard to withdrawal are the words 'the' or 'all' and 'the June 5, 1967 lines'....the resolution speaks of withdrawal from occupied territories without defining the extent of withdrawal."

DZ: "The 4-th Geneva limits its applications to situations where a power seized a territory from its previous legal owner" No, quite untrue. Art 2 limits the applicability of the GCs to these **TWO** situations: 1) Two HCPs come to blows, and ALSO when 2) One HCP siezes the territory of another HCP. Condition (1) was certainly met in June 1967, and so GCIV became applicable in the West Bank on June 1967. You then have to go to Article 6 to make the GC's *cease* being applicable i.e. you *can't* use Article 2 for that purpose. And Article 6 clearly says that GCIV remains applicable whereever there is "occupation". That's it: merely "occupation", not the "occupation of another HCP's territory". You Are Wrong.

"8 Years of bottle rockets that killed less than 20 people is not an excuse to massacre upwards of 1000+ people. Israel went after the civilian population. To punish them for voting for a party that wouldn`t toe the line like Fatah did." [Marc Leb] Qassams and mortars are not bottle rockets. Qassams carry a TNT payload which is surrounded by nuts and bolts for shrapnel, laced with insecticide. They are designed to kill, and they do kill. Only an idiot would would try to dismiss this as a "bottle rocket". The mortars are standard issue killing weapons. The IDF did not "go after the civilian population". They went after the militants, but their job was made difficult because the Hamas militants ditched their uniforms, and many of them actually put on female clothing. They fought from behind non-combatants. There was collateral damage, but the numbers show that IFD exercised a lot of care and restraint. And, it was not to punish them for voting incorrectly.

If you want to understand Israel's "response", then you should read the playbook used to craft it: 25 Tactics for Truth Suppression http://benfrank.net/disinfo/ If they truly thought their hands were clean, they would welcome an investigation, instead of refusing to cooperate with and trying to obstruct the efforts of those investigating the matter.

A Clean Break: A New Strategy For Securing The Realm. The report prepared in 1996 and led by ('cake walk in Iraq') Richard Pearle for Benjamin Netanyahu the then, and now Prime Minister of Israel. PeterSM, Please take time to read: SFGate San Francisco Chronicle 21 July 2006 "Israel Set War Plan More Than One Year Ago" Strategy was put in motion as Hezbollah began increasing its military strength. Also PeterSM, Israel was no respecter of borders with Lebanon prior to the 2006 Lebanon war - stepping over the Blue Line, and provocative over-flights into Lebanon sovereign air space. Israeli over-flights into Lebanon sovereign air space continue 2010! (Reference: UN News 11 January 2010 "Lebanon: UN Again Protests Against Israeli Over-Flights.")

territories now occupied and give the Palestiniasn the vote. What,s that you say????. The rest of the planet is wrong. Happy dreams Ed.

"it was not his job ????????????" what was his job labarse to construct an irish style report where the rules are bent backwards ??

This is empty propaganda. If Israel truly believed it could disprove the report's findings, it would follow its recommendations, and carry out a real investigation. But it knows exactly what it did, and more importantly, why. "The Mission concludes that the conditions resulting from deliberate actions of the Israeli armed forces and the declared policies of the Government with regard to the Gaza Strip before, during and after the military operation cumulatively indicate the intention to inflict collective punishment on the people of the Gaza Strip." Report of the United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf Israelis must demand better.

The 4-th Geneva limits its applications to situations where a power seized a territory from its previous legal owner and Palestine, that was never a legal entity, or any Arab state for that matter, never had any legal authority over these lands. In addition, to clarify the issue, the 1979 UNSC convention # 446 defined the applicability of the 4-th Geneva in the following language: ?Affirming once more that the Geneva Convention RELATIVE TO THE PROTECTION OF CIVILIAN PERSONS in time of war, of August 12 1949 is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967 including East Jerusalem. Again, there is no mention of illegality of settlements. You have a loosing argument.

particularly all un organizations.

its application to israel. must attack foundation of this report. must destroy goldstone and all he stands for. do more than prove him wrong.

I have posted the following for you at least 1000 times--I am still awaiting a reply but all is the same old worn out claim that 242 set no borders. Fine--no argument there--never has been. But show us where in 242 it gives either side the right to help themselves to the other guys pice of pie. Here is the part you always miss. ""Knowing as I did the unsatisfactory nature of the 1967 line, I wasn?t prepared to use wording in the Resolution that would have made that line permanent. Nonetheless, it is necessary to say again that the overwhelming principle was the ?inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war? and that meant that there could be no justification for the annexation of territory on the Arab side of the 1967 line merely because it had been conquered in the 1967 war."Lord Caradon

Another opportunist ready to sell out the jews for personal gain and fame.

is not an excuse to massacre upwards of 1000+ people. Israel went after the civilian population. To punish them for voting for a party that wouldn't toe the line like Fatah did.

get over yourselves...we all play by the same rules and we are tired of you breaking them because you are so 'special'

Israeli Law that is.--what does your opinion have to do with anything. They are and will continue to be "Illegal" until one of two things occur. The illegal settlers get out and Israel returns the land to it,s rightful owners or the rightful owners--the Palestinians agree to a land swap or allows Israel to keep them. Got it now David--and if you must be childish and insist on having the last word--please go ahead---I will waste no more time on you.

"Knowing as I did the unsatisfactory nature of the 1967 line, I wasn?t prepared to use wording in the Resolution that would have made that line permanent. Nonetheless, it is necessary to say again that the overwhelming principle was the ?inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war? and that meant that there could be no justification for the annexation of territory on the Arab side of the 1967 line merely because it had been conquered in the 1967 war."Lord Caradon Now please indicate where in that resolution it states that either side can take land that is on either side of the armisice line that was declared on the day of the ceasefire.I have asked you 1000 times ---still waiting. The Settlements are on illegally gained territory--IE GAINED THROUGH WAR OR ILLEGAL ANNEXATION. Bon Voyage

If this is a contest to see how many civilians one can kill, we,US, win. During the last 60 or so years nobody is even in second place.

his job was advise the UNHRC on the way to proceed. Report the facts as he saw them Israel did exactly waht we expected--refused to defend their case.So the other half of the facts did not get reported---and whose fault is that. That in the real world ammounts to an admission of guilt.

dont argue with me. "Jordan captured the West Bank and kicked out every single Jew in 1948, attacked Israel again in 1967 and lost. You`re saying it was illegal for Jews to reclaim their properties? Dunce."SDHD (I see you also missed your social skills lessons.) Hell even Israel,s sugar daddy agrees. Now who are we to argue with the US of A.

You know nothing about me or Israel. Maale Adanim is a just outside of our capitol and belongs to us. It is home to 33,000+ Israelis. The west bank was conquered AFTER Jordan attacked my people. All they had to do was to stay out of the 6 day war.. they chose to get involved and lost. since when do losers dictate history? since when is it okay to blow up buses with children or launch rockets against civilians. Israel has the right to protect itself... or wait does that upset you? Arabs are murderers.. have been throughout time. So where are you from? Are you a coward hiding in anonymity? I am right here in Haifa...you are welcome to come debate this face to face. oh wait.. it easier to throw stones from afar and to be an armchair quarterback. So be it. I know you and your kind.

slaughter every last living Jewish man in the world. Some of your compatriots took this mission to the heart by sending rockets at civilians walking Israel streets for years on end. Mr. Goldstone will fail to defend their right at it. And if anyone takes this mission as seriously they will bring sword to Israel which will pierce their own heart. Stop spewing ideology of hatred and learn to live.

article 49--Israel is forbiodden to transfer it,s citizens--Israeli--Arab or Jew to the terirory it occupies. "The settlements are precisely defined in the International Law as having NO LEGAILTY" ED Care to show us the law that states that absence of legality infers legality. While you might argue their , ("the buildings") presence is not illeagl---their purpose is, and that purpose has been put into practice. It is called facilitating the "Transfer of illegal Settlers" to territory occupied By israel. Spin it any way you want ED --they are illegal as long as they have Israeli citizens squatting on them.

Lord Caradon (Hugh M. Foot) was the permanent representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations, 1964-1970, and chief drafter of Resolution 242. ? Institute for the Study of Diplomacy, U.N. Security Council Resolution 242, pg. 13, qtd. in Egypt?s Struggle for Peace: Continuity and Change, 1967-1977, Yoram Meital, pg. 49: Much play has been made of the fact that we didn?t say ?the? territories or ?all the? territories. But that was deliberate. I myself knew very well the 1967 boundaries and if we had put in the ?the? or ?all the? that could only have meant that we wished to see the 1967 boundaries perpetuated in the form of a permanent frontier. This I was certainly not prepared to recommend. ? Journal of Palestine Studies, ?An Interview with Lord Caradon,? Spring - Summer 1976, pgs 144-45: Now when are you going to complain to the Arabs about Kurdistan? Turks about Cyprus? China about Tibet? The mass murder in Sudan?

I would like to make it abundantly clear. Being optimist by nature, I see a lot of things happening in the future, but Anti - Semites pulling the world off of her bearings and rallying its armies to the walls of Ierushalaim. My personal preference is healthy minds prevail. But somehow an frivolous adjudication by a body bearing important insignia has made its way into the heart of jurisprudence. As we all know, there were doctors who used their robes to cover genocide. So, it's not like "they" are inventing something new and unheard of.

Besides, i am a modest man and have most of what i want.

and as a member it has responsibilities ---ie treat it,s neighbours with dignity and respect. Your "last post" sounds as if you have reached the end of your argument. One more time---Maale Adumin is on the west Bank side of the Aparteid seperation barrier. It is on occupied territory. Nothing you can say will change that. It is the btruth you work so hard to avoid but it will keep coming back to wake you up---time and time again. Telling me to mind my own business will not change it for you----and yes I know all about you.

Good question SDHD!! Did Israel make Hamas fire rockets for 7 years, with a massive crescendo of rocket fire a week before Cast Lead? Yes indeed, a VERY good question. Unfortunatlly the answer is YES!!!! How you ask? By destroying hundreds of villages and evicting their inhabitants. By not allowing those refugees to return to their land. By turning Gaza into the worlds largest prison and by refusing to allow the Palestinian Peoples any hope for a better future. I am sure that you too, if faced with these events would fight back any way you could. I am glad you asked this question, I hope you think about the answer!!!

injured by your fork attempting to expropriate the choicest pieces of meat from my plate. "If you would like, i will send you my no. and invite you to dinner in Dublin."WJ

He expressed his prejudices before he even started. His mandate was a farce,he had enough sense to change it but the mandate says it all about UN human rights commission that employed him. He chose to ignore evidence that Hamas chose to fight amongst civillians without uniforms and its consequences. He also ignored the widely reported that the Hamas high command was camped out in the Al-Shifa Hospital, which would of course constitute a war crime. All Goldstone had were staements by Palestinians in Hamas ruled Gaza thats why he called it a report. He chose to fall asleep when being presented with evidence on Qassams on Sderot.

I would argue that Israel (or any country) has an obligation to conform to the rules of war but it also has a higher obligation to protect its citizens. Did Israel violate the rules and make war on civilians in both Lebanon and Gaza? It sure did, and guess what - it worked.

I am afraid you are spinning again, with the standard references to the not good enough but at least we/they Americans are trying standard response. The reality is this (one of many such examples). American soldier kills mother, father, and two Iraqi children in vehicle. "And they briefed the general...I mean they had pictures. And this colonel turns around to this full division staff and says, 'If these ----ing hajis [pejorative term for Iraqis] learned to drive, this sh-t wouldn't happen." (Hedges, XV). I'm not here to spin for anyone as you are, only to hold up reality to those of my fellow Americans or their defenders who themselves spin and rationalize the indefensible.

It is a neighborhood of OUR Jerusalem. The Arabs attacked us AND LOST. Why is that hard for you to understand. So stay out of our affairs and mind your own business... you know nothing of us. AND... the truth will set you free.... take some of your own advice and PLEASE learn some Hebrew before you write it.

Your post reads like a poor stab at describing confirmation bias. What you actually write is little more than trite nonsense. It must by apply to you as much as it does to me. [or do you bizarrely imagine yourself devoid of 'fixed ideas' on here?] Of course I have a view on Cast Lead and many other matters pertaining to Israel/Palestinian issue, and it is most certainly a million miles from your own. Who's the bigot, the ideologue, the prejudiced. You or me? From your post it appears that both of us are or neither of us are. Nothing you wrote excludes your good self from your own criticisms. So physician[teacher, whatever] heal thyself.

Jordan captured the West Bank and kicked out every single Jew in 1948, attacked Israel again in 1967 and lost. You're saying it was illegal for Jews to reclaim their properties? Dunce.

Naturally, you would very much like them to be illegal but that does not make it so no matter how many times you state it. The settlements are precisely defined in the International Law as having NO LEGAILTY. That is the only language used in reference to settlements. That is completely different than ILLEGAL. You can relieve your rage by learning the proper meaning of the language used by various UNSC resolutions dealing with this matter. It is true that the settlements are NOT AUTHORIZED but their presence is not illegal and thus subject to removal by force.

Wake up armchair airhead, the Hamas Charter has everything to do with Israel's response to continued acts of war emanating from Gaza! Disproportionate force for disproportionate hate. I mentioned the previous greenhouses to highlight the productive nature of the Israelis compared to the dysfunctional and dangerous modus operandi of Hamas. Multiply their mess across this beautiful piece of highly desirable real estate along the Mediterranean coast and you have present day Gaza, a place where even the ancient Philistines knew how to build 3000 yrs. ago. Where were your comments criticizing Hamas for building reinforced tunnels to hide in after shooting at Israel and then effectually posting "No civilians allowed!" signs outside those entrances?

i woild be surpriesd if hammas says anything, buy i hope they do.

The UN will read Israel's reply and say 'Doesn't say what we want to hear,take it away and bring it back when it agrees with Goldstone,no disagreement allowed,not accepted.'. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!

If you would like, i will send you my no. and invite you to dinner in Dublin. If my profession,lies don't "fly." regards

when there are conditions. He did not accept a two State solution . He did not accept an independent State of Palestine. Just yesterday he added a new Caveat---that Israel must have a military prescence on the border between Jordan and the new so called de militarised/Israeli controlled non contiguous totally dependent on Israel---state of Palestine. Take Roo,s advice---go on a vacation. this all getting to you huh psm---talk of hate sites and anti semitism. Your bag of excuses is getting pretty empty daan unde. Stay tuned---much more to come---much more indeed.

"Eli is not living in an illegal settlement but a neighborhood of OUR capitol city Jerusalem." David Ma'ale Adumim (Hebrew: מ?ע?ל?ה א?ד?מ??ים?) is an Israeli settlement and a city near Jerusalem in the West Bank and on the edge of the Judean desert. (Hebrew: מ?ע?ל?ה א?ד?מ??ים?) is an Israeli settlement and a city near Jerusalem in the West Bank and on the edge of the Judean desert. The west bank is occupied--se case # 2057 Beit Zourik v Israel in which the IHCJ (ISRAELI HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE)ruled the West Bank to be "Held under Belligerent Occupation" by Israel. As the occupying power Israel cannot be the sovereign the same territory. And as the Occupying power, Israel is prohibited from transferring it,s citizens to the teritory it Occupies. Note --that applies to Jews or Arabs --not that Israel is transferring any Arabs back tio the Jews only "ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS". Hope that helped to get you nearer the truth dav--eed. Truth can set you free.

Why are you ignoring,like the UN, what he said about Hamas?

"Goldstone said he had no evidence that would stand up in a criminal court of law" What he said was that he was not seeking to construct a case which would match up to the requirements of a court of law. He was compiling a 'report', which on the basis of evidence he saw and heard, recommended Israel and Hamas **themselves** set up a full inquiry into whether breaches of humanitarian law had indeed occurred, as his findings implied they may well have done so. Can't you spot the fundamental difference between that and your quoted remarks? If not then perhaps you should take a vacation?

Michael Sfard, an Israeli attorney wrote at the end of 2009, during the first anniversary of the IDF's Operation Cast Lead, that: "Looking back, Operation Cast Lead was a turning point in the way Israeli society expresses its values. There, in besieged Gaza Strip, we exposed ourselves to a crystal-clear, shameless, and unmasked truth that we had thus far avoided by using repression and self-deceit methods that became more complex and clever with every war and operation we waged ... we came out of the closet. We are who we are and we are proud of it! ... For three weeks, during Operation Cast Lead, we sent fighter jets to drop bombs on one of the world's most densely populated areas. We aimed our guns at clearly civilian targets. We used [white?] phosphorous bombs. We deliberately and systematically demolished thousands of private houses and public buildings, and

of a Pal state. PS Iam not quoting camera I read widely including your Irish hatesite which you bring here.

In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "transferring" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations. You were saying something about helping nazis. We stayed neutral---seems like some Jews were willing to join them. Silly git you say. Wht,s wrong Ishai--are those pesky blekks causing you grief. Having to pay your caffers nowadays. Gee how awful for you.

Fascinating discourse. Best I?ve seen on any subject matter appearing in this newspaper. Anyway I tend to agree with Goldstone because of his impeccable credentials and the fact that sound rational for him wanting to demonize the jew State is non-existent. I am open minded enough though to consider very carefully points raised in the forthcoming rebuttal. Overall to me this entire episode is somewhat of a watershed. What is considered acceptable collateral damage (read civilian deaths) when fighting terrorism? And who are the terrorists? Al Qaeda of course since its activities have an international scope. Is this the proper gauge? If so it eliminates Hezbollah and Hamas. And because of the circumstances many would say rightfully so. Points to ponder. We are in for some very interesting times.

When you're dealing with killer rabbits, you need holy hand grenades. I guess when you're dealing with terrorist chickens, you need blessed bombs. (You could also have fun with the 'No one expects...' routine too, 'Everyone expects the....inquisition, amongst our weaponry is fearmongering, spin, and an almost fanatical devotion to...'

?Or HAMAS admits they were wrong... to fire Qassams acknowledge it was a war crime and hands over via Egypt a number of Palestinians who are willing to go to The hague?Chirs L. You should live so long, Chris.

Goldstone went absolutly nowhere in the US. It was non news within a week of publication. Best to leave it on the scrap heap. Israel can make a case for itself but when the jury is the left and Arabs Israel can't win-why play? Israel needs no apology for a brilliant operation that all but stopped the rocket fire.

Your post reads like a poor stab at describing confirmation bias. What you actually write is little more than trite nonsense. It must by apply to you as much as it does to me. [or do you bizarrely imagine yourself devoid of 'fixed ideas' on here?] Of course I have a view on Cast Lead and many other matters pertaining to Israel/Palestinian issue, and it is most certainly a million miles from your own. Who's the bigot, the ideologue, the prejudiced. You or me? From your post it appears that both of us are or neither of us are. Nothing you wrote excludes your good self from your own criticisms. So physician[teacher, whatever] heal thyself.

Smart, but not wise.

Does anything you read ever get through to what you call a brain?? Israel never said it did not destroy anything. The conditions and way in which the combat was carried out is the line between self defense and war crimes. When will the Palestinians stop using terror as their sole method of resolving their conflict?? They voted in Hamas, and now they are stuck with Hamas and all the nasty things that they bring upon their population. Why was it Okay for America to attack Iraq?? Why was it okay for America to attack Afghanistan?? You decided that Afghanistan was complicit so you attacked a sovereign nation bringing hardship on its population. You attacked Iraq and decided that Saddam had WMD? You again brought hardship on their population. Its obvious American do what it wants and its citizens support it. But America never gets caught with War Crimes trials and all the other CRAP people like you reap upon Israel.

Making accusations without proof is that your forte? Here is Proof, the problem is, it indicts the Pals and Hezbollah. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys and Here: http://www.seconddraft.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=422&Itemid=171 And Here: http://www.seconddraft.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=422&Itemid=171 So while you make wild and false accusations about Israel, I provide proof that Israel's enemies actually do what you falsely accuse Israel of, lie!

"Israel still hoping Goldstone report will be forgotten." People who live in glass houses shouldn't cast stones...I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I think that's more or less how the saying goes Labhras, you dirty Irish git. Go back to your Ireland, ask them why they so willingly accommodated the fleeing Nazi dogs from Germany, and shut up. Oh, and 'rest o'the day to you'...

At the debriefing therefore a primary source..His letter appeared inter alia in the Jerusalem post,read it for yourself. Goldstone said he had no evidence that would stand up in a criminal court of law .

bibi finally found out that all the land is israel !!

You reject "Humanity" on the other, the "Jew". That rejection has a name. Guess which name?

During his swearing in, Mr. Netanyahu struck a somewhat conciliatory tone toward the Palestinians in an address to Parliament, promising negotiations toward a permanent accord, but stopped short of endorsing a two-state solution." NYT This what you had in mind psm He promised "negotiations" not a Two State solution. You forgot his promise to not expropiate any more west bank land. That promise was broken the very next day by Barak. You are without question the easiest opponent I have ever encountered. You are truly hopeless as a contestant.

Some information on your question-answer format: Yes there was a cease fire, but it was not being observed. Cease fire means zero fire. During May 15 to November 4, 2008, the number of unanswered missiles and mortars from Gaza was variously listed from 71 to 86. David Ignatius of the Wash Post cited 79 in an October 2009 column. Certainly less than average, but not zero. Therefore the blockade was not lifted. The Pals were armed militants working on a tunnel near the border. In view of Shalit, the attack was justified. Such construction was and is specifically prohibited.

You should google under phosphorous munitions and cluster bombs to learn about these. Both are employed by many armies and have been used by the US and British forces in Iraq and Aphganistan. These weapons are highly effective in certain situations. Westminster Parliament: 21 July 2009 : Column 1210W Mr. Bob Ainsworth: In the last five years, white phosphorus munitions have been used by UK forces in both the Iraq and Afghanistan theatres of operation, information covering the last 10 years is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Does this answer your question ?

in the Goldstone report. But in all likelihood the israeli rebutal will be the usual flawed propagandam, intended to draw attention away fromt he numerous war crimes committed in gaza.

"Netanyahu Backs Palestinian State," psm January 2010 netanyahu makes the following statement in the illegal settlement of Kfar Etzion to it,s 400 illeagl settlers. Kfar Etzion (Hebrew: כ??פ?ר ע?צ?יו?ן?, lit. Etzion Village) is a religious Israeli settlement and kibbutz located in the Judean Hills between Jerusalem and Hebron in the southern West Bank. It has a population of 400 and falls under the jurisdiction of Gush Etzion" Haartez Likud Charter has not changed either in word or thought. Israel as we all know nevr did , does not and never will be interested in peace. Just the gola of a greater Israel. You are no different---you do not want peace --why do you pretend to---we can all see right through your lies.

# 105 Roo, Supposing another soldier came out with a diametrically opposite view,would you post it ? of course not.You have a certain fixed idea about a certain,people or events/happenings,& you'll always seek & find what you are looking for.Of course you'll find them ! You'll can even see certain clergy that claimed Mary of Magdala, (Mary Magdalene) was a harlot. I challenge you to choose any 10 people to hear a speech/sermon or lecture & later recount. 1)What they heard. 2)What they understood. Do that first immediately. And then repeat the questions after one/two/or five years. Tell us what you get. You write in these forums,thinking some people are simpletons,& you Roo. Wow !

Or HAMAS admits they were wrong to fire Qassams acknowledge it was a war crime and hands over via Egypt a number of Palestinians who are willing to go to The hague and live in the equivalent of a hotel with conjugal visits internet access etc for ten years. Then of course everyone will then start digging around at Israel, who will be seen not to be co-operating with the Goldstone Report or the UN unlike HAMAS who were most coperative. Far fetched? There are many people who think the Lockerbie Bomber was released early because he was about to win his appeal. A sacrificial lamb provided by Libya in return for the normalisation of ties. Could get interesting.

yes,the us has committed war crimes too.look at the whole gwot.look at what we did in fallujah.as an american citizen i hope we will be brought to justice too.

Is this your evidence that war crimes were committed ? How does the fact that the commander told his troops not worry about consequences when they will be focusing on a military operation constitute an intent to indiscriminately kill civilians ? I await you learned answer.

read your bible.the jews existed long before israel.

he just finished denegrating Pappe(POST 100) and then offers CAMERA.SCAM as a credible source. Proof postive that zionists are the true camels. of the middle East.

Eli is not living in an illegal settlement but a neighborhood of OUR capitol city Jerusalem. Secondly... they, the GAZANS began the war when they fired rockets at us.... they then got their tushes kicked. Just like we have kicked Arab tush in every other war. Thirdly: IT amazes me how many anti Israel, Jew hating people like YOU read this paper. Amazing! Might I suggest reading BBC or some other Arab loving paper.

if you think the bombing of the chinese embassy by precision bombs was accidental (they got the wrong coordinates hah)you are sadly mistaken.

on your post above and then you denegrate Illan Pappe. Lets face it psm---anyone---I mean anyone who disagrees with you is a non seeker of truth. As we speak netanyahu is in the west bank planting trees and telling the Palestinians the Jews are there to stay. Oh ehere is another one of Israel leaders stating what the real plan was. " Ben-Gurion commented on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan as follows in 1937: "We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66). Note the premeditated plan to ethnically cleanse the Negev and Transjordan which were not allocated to the Jewish State by the Peel Commission, click here to view a map illustrating the areas allocated to the "Jewish State" by the Peel Commission in 1937. * In a speech addressing the Zionist Action Committee on April 6, 1948, Ben-Gurion clearly stated that war could be used as an instrument to solve the so called "Arab demographic problem". He stated: "We will not be able to win the war if we do not, during the war, populate upper and lower, eastern and western Galilee, the Negev and Jerusalem area, even if only in an artificial way, in a military way. . . . I believe that war will also bring in its wake a great change in the distribution of [Palestinian] Arab population." (Benny Morris, p. 181 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 181) Dont you ever get tired making a fool of yourself

as always,when israel doesnt like the message they destroy the messenger.

Oh I agree that the American record on investigating and punishing miscreants in Iraq is very poor.Yet it is still streets ahead of anything Israel has shown any inclination for post Cast Lead. There are at least a number of prosecutions of American GI's in the civilian courts(for those no longer serving)as well as a significant number of court martials, some involving long sentences, as well as Joe Biden's latest assurance that the US admin will support an appeal against the dismissal of the Blackwater case. Whereas on the Israel side of the balance sheet we have, wait for it...one conviction for 'theft of a credit card'. Try spinning that?

I wish I were surprised at the responses to evidence that the so-called Goldstone report contains substantial and perhaps deliberate errors in fact. Not long ago there was a panel program on the publicly funded TV Ontario about this report. Whenever confronted with facts the defenders of the so-called report always maintained that those facts didn't matter and we had to look at the big picture. I am also not surprised by the continued racist usage of "Palestinian". It is the Middle Eastern version of "Aryan". Whether Israel wants peace--and they did propose an Arab state in occupied Judea & Samaria in 1968--or not, it is clear that on the Arab side, for the most part, peace is at best a temporary situation, to be discarded when the opportunity arises to beat and destroy (Jewish) Palestinians. Arabs have largely despised Palestinians and treated them poorly. By assuming the appelation "Palestinian" for themselves the seek to commit historical genocide.

lies from. Israel has been asked nicely to establish an independent investigation. This is just another IDF white washing exercise. That you and those like you think it suffices bodes ill for Israel. The heads in the sand band.

Oh and a complete lack of respect for the laws of both man and God tempered by a macarbe sense of justice.

Camera! A thoroughly unbiased and credible group are they Peter? Not according to Orthodox Jew and proud Israeli academic Gershom Gorenberg. http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_mideast_editing_wars Yet you have the chutzpah to talk of Pallywood? Amir Marmor, a 33-year-old history graduate student in Jerusalem and a military reservist, said in an interview with The New York Times that he was stunned to discover the way civilian casualties were discussed in training discussions before his tank unit entered Gaza in January. "Shoot and dont worry about the consequences, " was the message from the top commanders, he said. Speaking of a lieutenant colonel who briefed the troops, Mr. Marmor said, "His whole demeanor was extremely gung ho. This is very, very different from my usual experience. I have been doing reserve duty for 12 years, and it was always an issue how to avoid causing civilian injuries. He said in this operation we are not taking any chances. Morality aside, we have to do our job. We will cry about it later." Is Amir a fiction too? Can his views be conveniently contextualized to oblivion by Camera.Liars.Org. For a catalogue of abuses see: http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/index_e.asp What you reject as hearsay is often eye witness accounts by IDF on the ground. What is more, in response to accusations that soldiers are hiding behind anonymity [for fear of ruining their lives and careers]most witnesses say they would be willing to testify to what they saw if an independent investigation were to be had as opposed to an internal IDF whitewash come witch hunt.

start by explaining why you are living on someone elses property. Then we will move onto thwe business of drippiong whit phospherous on unarmed. civilians. You have much to explain not to worry--you will be given every chance. I suggest you take it this time.

"Where is your source for your claim that Hussein killed 11000 and how does that --if it is true relieve "IZZYS" of their crimes." Why don't you googgle to learn something new. Its overthere. But your ignorance made you blind. Here is the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan "enlighten us ---what has King Hussein to do with Israel comitting war crimes in Gaza." If your intelect does not get it, then there is no hope for you. Lets englighten. If there would be another army instead of IDF the casaltuies would be tremendous, as it can be compared with Black September, 10 times more with the same time span. Which army on this world has to fight a war in a such highly densly populated area with this results. It's unique on every basis. Every preacaution has been taken to give min hazard to civilians. If it was another army instead of IDF the results would be very costly for both sides. If you want to test it look at the last wars that USA is doing in Afghani

When combatants are at war, you destroy the other side with extreme predudice. Our Loving Father YHWH commanded this in his precious Scriptures. We are playing baby cakes with islam, when we should be destroying with extreme predudice.

Letters page Irish Times 21 Feb lettersed@irish-times.ie ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS Madam, - Israel-haters are fond of citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections. The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple. In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes. It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail. Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops. The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves. There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th,1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th. It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic. The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two. I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war (ie almost 1 per cent of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000). - Yours, etc, Prof BENNY MORRIS, Li-On, Israel.

and will be a precursor to sending foreign troops in Israel on one hand and unlawful hunt, arrest, and persecution at large of Israelis. It does not matter who; the report gives a blank check to go after every member of IDF, and that is the whole of country. The most important long term function of Israeli government today is to setup mechanisms of commerce that will endure the incoming crisis and protect interests of Jewish business. The short term must be to deal in decisive and expedition manner with party of sedition. Kadima should be put to trial and the dealings of her leaders should be put to light. The sedition of Israel should be prosecuted.

If it turns out that Israel didn't have a ?deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed at the civilian population.? Then Judge Goldstone must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Such as personal and damning claim cannot go unrefuted or unpunished if incorrect or innaccurate, especially if it was made by a person selected by the UN to investigate war crimes. It amounts to no less than blood libel in a new form, even if the claim was made by a Jew. It is simply appauling.

Who was political scientist not a historian when he wrote the book,whose work has been challenged by genuine historians such as Morris,who lost court cases over his work and suddenly became a Professor of history when he went to Exter,intersting standards. 2.The leader of Likud Netanyahu has come out publicly accepting a Palestinian state. Netanyahu Backs Palestinian State, With Caveats - NYTimes.com 15 Jun 2009 ... Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu endorsed the idea of a Palestinian state for the first time, but Palestinians immediately rejected his ... www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html - Similar Netanyahu backs demilitarized Palestinian state - Haaretz - Israel ... Netanyahu backs demilitarized Palestinian state -News and commentary relating to events in Israel, the occupied territories, and the world, along with an ... www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092710.html - Cached - Similar 3.Where did 1.2 million Arabs in Israel come from???

finishing touches on their response to the Goldstone report. One of the most persuasive argutments is the level of care Hamas demostrated in targeting Israeli military installations over 8 years in a way that would minimize Israeli civilian casulaties. Only 2 or 3 civilians were hurt compared to Israel's indiscriminate killing of more than 1,400 innocent Palestinians. Anti-Semites of the world: UNITE !

May I suggest you read your history books a bit more thoroughly? The Nazis torched the Reichstags and ruled without parliamentary control. In any case, the judge doesn't decide whether the parliament building "changes character" - and neither do you. That's an issue of international law and the only decision there is is whether you respect it or decide that you don't care about what's right or wrong but simply about getting your will, no matter how many human lives it costs. I take it you choose the latter.

"Israel should always endeavor to cause minimal casualties." I'll take issue withh that last sentence. For arguements sake: Let's say,the casualties on the other side were 10 fold to the previous one. The likely outcome on the other side,(B) would be to retaliate with anger. (that would seem a tactical mistake on the side of (A). But now say,that (A) were again to increase the casualties,another 10 fold ! Ah ! Now this has become a strategic issue,& not a tactical one. All the (B) elements will now see that this has got out of hand ! And if they react again.They will never know what will be waiting for them the next time & the next time.(This is not a game of tit-for tat) The only course left open for them will be to stop provoking Israel. See,Hiroshima,Nagasaki,Dresden,Berlin. Did they react? Were they able to react?

during war. It's not like Hamas was pasturing goats and yodeling and IDF came down on them like a horrible eagle shearing away their eyes and tongues. It was a war provoked by Hamas by indiscriminate bombing of people who didn't respond in any way until patient lasted. What I am missing, even in this article, is rocket bombing of Israel's fuel depot. The very depot used to supply Gaza with oil and gasoline. The bombing was unprovoked and killed 5 Israelis. And was repeated couple of times. There was no war at the time. It was just Hamas as it is, day by day, bombing and killing peaceful civilians in Israel. I think this whole story ain't worth rotten egg. If UN so much wants Ierushalaim for their pastures, vote in UNSC and send your troops. Don't be surprised your pastry looks like dust once you do. Until than send your stories to Gilad Schalit. He has got all the time in the world to make sense of your mud.

I wouldn't be surprised if HAMAS said actually Goldstone is right there were some Commanders who defied their orders and broke humanitarian law, and hand them over to The Hague. Which would then put Israel in an impossible position, as HAMAS would be accepting the validity of the Goldstone Report and Israel will not be, despite what the worrld witnessed on their television screens, in complete denial of the allegations. Hopefully HAMAS will do what I have just said, wouldn't be the first time many believe the Lockerbie Bomber was a sacrificial lamb who had nothing to do with it, which is why he was freed before his appeal.

Accidents. Israel engulfed the media with it,s threats to the Arabs which mainly centered around the high tech nature of their weapons. Smart bombs, dead eye dick rockets capable of going through the eye of an needle. We heard all this --and so did the commission and are ready for Israel,s somewhat contradictory claim that accidents happen. Having read the report--I am looking foward to some enterainment watching a few war criminals squirm and whinge as they reach for the old race card and claim anti semitism is behind all of this.

What are you talking about? Hedges has the credibility to speak on all of these issues, including Gaza, precisely because he has the profound capacity to examine American racism and atrocities rather than simply create some "other" and then accuse it of doing everything America is responsible for itself, such as when Mark of Lewiston has repeatedly in posts here sought to defend the egregious American record of investigating its own war crimes in Iraq. Again, see the Hedges book I cited for the reality of that record, not the spin.

is based on de jure law ! not on irish whimsy or arab dreams 1

During the six day war, Jordan forced large numbers of Palestinians into the West bank as part of its peace deal with Israel. The source is the the NYT, and you can find it in most large libraries maybe even maybe in Dublin..

Israel never has--does not and never will be interested in making a just peace. Whine all you want and point you finger in every direction in blame at the Palestinians and the world at large---the blame lies with Israel--always has --always will---until it is either willing to make peace--not much chance of that ---so it will have to be forced into making peace.

* In a speech addressing the Zionist Action Committee on April 6, 1948, Ben-Gurion clearly stated that war could be used as an instrument to solve the so called "Arab demographic problem". He stated: "We will not be able to win the war if we do not, during the war, populate upper and lower, eastern and western Galilee, the Negev and Jerusalem area, even if only in an artificial way, in a military way. . . . I believe that war will also bring in its wake a great change in the distribution of [Palestinian] Arab population." (Benny Morris, p. 181 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 181) Note the premeditated plan to occupy and ethically cleanse areas, such as Galilee and Jerusalem, which were not allotted to the "Jewish State" by the 1947 UN GA Partition plan. Click here to view a map illustrating the areas allocated to the "Jewish State" by the 1947 UN GA partition plan. For moment, let assume that the above are pure Arab propaganda, and lets contemplate what Ben-Gurion told Nahunm Goldman (a prominent Zionists leader before he died): "I don't understand your optimism.," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipes us out".

While addressing the Central Committee of the Histadrut on December 30, 1947, Ben-Gurion stated: "In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176) * Ben-Gurion commented on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan as follows in 1937: "We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66). Note the premeditated plan to ethnically cleanse the Negev and Transjordan which were not allocated to the Jewish State by the Peel Commission, click here to view a map illustrating the areas allocated to the "Jewish State" by the Peel Commission in 1937.

While addressing the Central Committee of the Histadrut on December 30, 1947, Ben-Gurion stated: "In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 176) * Ben-Gurion commented on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan as follows in 1937: "We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66). Note the premeditated plan to ethnically cleanse the Negev and Transjordan which were not allocated to the Jewish State by the Peel Commission, click here to view a map illustrating the areas allocated to the "Jewish State" by the Peel Commission in 1937.

Apparently, that is what Israel is doing. What is Hamas doing?

In 1938, Ben-Gurion made it clear of his support for the "Jewish state" on part of Palestine was only as a stepping ground for a complete conquest. He wrote: "[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403) * One day after the UN vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun gang and Israel's future Prime Minister between 1977-1983, proclaimed: "The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." (Iron Wall p. 25) * Ben-Gurion was happy and sad when the U.N. voted to partition Palestine into two states, Palestinian and Jewish. He was happy because "finally" Jews could have a "country" of their own. On the other hand, he was sad because they have "lost" almost half of Palestine, and because they would have to contend with a sizable Palestinian minority, well over 45% of the total population. In the following few quotes, you will see how he also stated that a "Jewish state" cannot survive being 60% Jewish; implying that something aught to be done to remedy the so called "Arab demographic problem". He stated on November 30, 1947: "In my heart, there was joy mixed with sadness: joy that the nations at last acknowledged that we are a nation with a state, and sadness that we lost half of the country, Judea and Samaria, and , in addition, that we [would] have [in our state] 400,000 [Palestinian] Arabs." (Righteous Victims, p. 190)

As it will be demonstrated below, the decision by the Zionist leadership to accept the 1947 proposed UN GA Partition plan was nothing but a smoke screen, which was done solely to gain international recognition and support. This deception was a political ploy to gain initial international legitimacy for the existence of the "Jewish state", and this was well known to the Palestinian people. The reader is urged to contemplate the following Zionist leaders' quotes in an open mind. Note that most, if not all, of the quotes below are dated before the entry of any single Arab Army into British Mandated Palestine: * In a letter Chaim Weizmann sent to the Palestine-British high Commissioner, while the Peel Commission was convening in 1937, he stated: "We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time ..... this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66) * Ben-Gurion emphasized that the acceptance of the Peel Commission would not imply static borders for the future "Jewish state". In a letter Ben-Gurion sent to his son in 1937, he wrote: "No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)

use subtefuge and devious methods. Give up the ghost psm---here are a few examples why the Palestinians are unable to get a state. As you will see---Israel has never intended to allow them to have one. I will start by offering the present Likud Charter followed by a series of statements by Israel,s leaders dating to prior 47 pattition which incidentally Israel refused to accept. Had Israel accepted --millions of Jews might have been saved. Likud Charter " Self-Rule The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.

My Israeli neighbor has his dog tied to a one meter chain, and rarely feeds him. The animal is in seriously bad condition, becoming more and more aggressive. There is a small shelter next to him, but which he can not enter, as the chain is too short. Yesterday i approached this neighbor, and asked him to please note the animals conditions, and if he fails to do so that i will contact the SPCA. That same evening this neighbor contacted the police, and told them that i abuse his dog by throwing water, and stones at it. The police warned me, and asked the man just to feed the dog, not noticing the poor conditions/health he is in.. This about sums up the mentality of our present, past, and probably future government in this unholy land......

enlighten us ---what has King Hussein to do with Israel comitting war crimes in Gaza. "in Black September 1973 Jordans King Hussein had killed 11 000 Palies in 15 days."aby Where is your source for your claim that Hussein killed 11000 and how does that --if it is true relieve "IZZYS" of their crimes. If you did not comit crimes---then why did you refuse to defend yourself and your so called most moral army. Guilty ---as charged---?????.

You actually have to answer the allegations in the Goldstone Report or risk Israelis being served with arrest warrants and summonses to The Hague. You should also be aware that there is a paragraph in The Goldstone Report enabling the imposition of sanctions on Israel if it does not do so. So yes bury your head in the sand, suits e fine.

The soldiers debriefing was hearsay not evidence and acknowledged as such in an article by the head of the military college that conducted the debriefing. PS Israel has NO influence on the UN GA that chose to ignore report criticism of Hamas. http://blog.camera.org/archives/2009/04/danny_zamir_slams_new_york_tim.html The New York Times has come under criticism from a number of sources (including CAMERA) for the way it mishandled rumors of misconduct by Israeli troops in Gaza. But the source of the most recent round of criticism is likely to raise some eyebrows. Danny Zamir, the head of the pre-military academy who brought together some of his graduates for the now infamous chat about the Gaza fighting, slammed the New York Times and other news outlets for twisting the soldiers' conversation in order to make "mendacious claims of policies that involve so-called war crimes." He wrote Tuesday in the Jerusalem Post: A number of articles published recently in The New York Times quoted or were based on words spoken by myself and by graduates of the pre-army leadership development program which I head (the "Rabin Mechina") - graduates who participated as combat soldiers in Operation Cast Lead and who met recently to process personal experiences from the battlefield. Both explicitly and by insinuation, the articles claim a decline in the IDF's commitment to its moral code of conduct in combat, and moreover, that this decline stems from a specific increase in the prominence of religious soldiers and commanders in the IDF in general, and from the strengthening of the position of IDF Chief Rabbi Avichai Ronsky in particular. It was as if the media were altogether so eager to find reason to criticize the IDF that they pounced on one discussion by nine soldiers who met after returning from the battlefield to share their experiences and subjective feelings with each other, using that one episode to draw conclusions that felt more like an indictment. Dogma replaced balance and led to a dangerous misunderstanding of the depth and complexity of Israeli reality. The individual accounts were never intended to serve as a basis for broad generalizations and summary conclusions by the media; they were published internally, intended for program graduates and their parents as a tool to be used in the process of educating and guiding the next generation.

Someone? Why???

"there are many more unbuilt areas than built areas. people most certainly had where to flee." Of course Cipora. Gaza is not really one of the most densely populated places on the planet. Who would believe such a thing! "People are terrorized by this situation, and they have a right to be," said John Ging, head of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency in Gaza. "They are fleeing their homes thinking they are going into a U.N. location, that they will be safe. But there is nowhere to flee. They are trapped." Many people in Gaza are making painful choices about whether to remain in their homes or flee. Amenhe al-Douse, 55, said that 70 people had crowded into her family's apartment building and that they were too scared to leave. "I am afraid if I go outside I'll be shot," she said, speaking by phone. On Saturday, Israeli jets dropped leaflets ordering the residents in northern Gaza to leave or risk death, said Samir Sultan, Intisar Sultan's brother. The Sultans decided to leave their house in Beit Hanoun. They went to stay with their large extended family near the Jabalya refugee camp. By Sunday, that area was under assault. "The shelling attacked our family houses. Six houses were fully destroyed, and 15 were partially destroyed. So we all fled," Samir Sultan said. " From the pro Israel right wing Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/06/AR2009010600541.html

without verifying information? Is it akin to lying with the goal to provoke hardship for the UN member state? Isn't the time to bring Goldstone to justice?

the rest of your posting is equally ignorant. Thye cluster bombs were denial of territory in the war zone Hezballah chose to illegally create etc etc You are hoping if sling enough mud some will stick There was no mistake when Hezballah chose to rocket northern Israel to start the war.

investigators who had condemned them before they even began their investigattion. Goldstone hads no right under any rules of natural justice to carry out the investigation

What can Israel say ?What evidence will be adequate to a body that chose to ignore the criticism of Hamas in the report?

I am not sure if that defence will stand up in The Hague. But I guess Israelis can try it when they start turning up there Fact is by destroying the flour mill and limiting the supply of flour into Gaza and refusing to allow the importation of spare parts to repair it. Israel is committing a war crime. You might think that as God's chosen children Israeli jews shouldn't be subject to International Law, I don't.

"the judge is not a good judge. if he were a good judge, he would not decide that the gaza parliament building did not change its character after hamas seized power" The Gaza parliament changed its character after Israel kidnapped dozens of its legislators so preventing it from passing any legislation. Speaking of Hamas 'seizing power, is a good reason why you make a lousy judge, yourself. You conveniently forget that Hamas were elected in a free and fair election and that they only ejected Fatah after Israel and the Americans aided by the Jordan, launched a putsch via Dahlan and Fatah, aimed at eliminating Hamas from their perfectly legal position as governing power.

There was a time, when we used to go to Gaza and have tea with the PA. Yes we were soldiers. Yes we believed that peace was possible. Then came the first intifada. Now, listen carefully Cipora,..everybody screwed up, Fatah stole the dough, the people suffered and Hamas began to distribute food and social services denied by Fatah. Hamas won the elections. Then the politicians screwed up again and Hamas became what it is today. If you have read the full report, thats fine. Somehow, I believe you have not. With the greatest of respect. Shavua tov.

the best israel can do is to anticipate all possible legal arguments and have answers before it gets to the un. israel should always and publicly insist on her right to self defence. she should also point out continually that hamas is a totalitarian de facto government. israel should also remind all that she has never accepted the jurisdiction of the icc nor its principles. goldstone actually used icc principles without so stating. said principles are broader and vaguer than geneva. given israel's circumstances nothing might help. of course, israel should always endeavor to cause minimal casualties.

Your eagerness to quote from Chris Hedges on one issue whilst no doubt disregarding him on the issue of Cast Lead or the occupation or the blockade is most persuasive (I think not).Mark of Lewiston's posts, I have read. He is one of the more intelligent AND balanced writers on here. You on the other hand only ever seek to defend Israel from whomever you regard as its assailants. Your dragnet taking you ever further from the anti semitic or real Israel haters that are here. You would have a bit more credibility if you showed some more balance yourself. Mild criticism of any Israeli actions or policies once in a long while rather than a pavlovian attack against others such criticisms would go some way.

Whether the Goldstone report is fair or not is open to debate - unless and until the Israeli government publishes a documented report of its own. Not answering the accusations of the Golstone report is tantamount to admitting that it is largely correct in its assertions. Silence is no defense, surly that must be obvious even to the most loyal Israeli.

At least... numerous bloggers combed the official causalties phcr list and sekked for martyrdom obituaries by terrorist organisations (you know those kind people of hamas, al aqsa, islamic jihad and other "charities") . They found that at least 359 causalties defined as "civilians" in the phcr were actually terrorists-legit targets. have a look at http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-of-those-civilians-killed-in-gaza.html http://ptwatch.pt.funpic.de/indexcas.php http://labrusca.blogspot.com/2009/05/casualties-of-truth.html

While most of your pertinent analysis is,to put it in a nutshell,enlightening & to the point. It's a pity you didn't give your views as to what should have been done,or what Israel should do in the future. One thing is certain: Never cower,even in the face of overwhelming odds. Human Nature: When one wants to explain a tragedy where millions of victims are involved.The Holocaust, Arminian Genocide,Darfur,Rwanda,Cambodia.& now, Iraq & Afghanistan. In a short time these great killings,slowly fade into oblivion. But on the other hand,if you were to take a single individual & dress him even in the most absurd way.The effect would be much greater.e.g. Take that jew-god of the Christians.For over 1,800 years they piled upon him,every absurdity,& on the other hand rendered him in paintings & pictures as a Handsome fellow ! Even the BBC in one of his articles,(saw him ajew,black curly hair & beard.Something like the bearded,Hezbollahniks.

that destroyed the only source of flour for bread in Gaza. The fact is it was Israeli artillery fire and Israel has refused to allow materials to enter Gaza to repair the flour mill. Suggests that Israeli planners planned for the destruction of the flourmill wjhich was agreed by Israeli politicians, who then decided that they were not going to allow the flourmill to be repaired. That's a war crime which showed planning and willing participation. See you in The Hague where you can explain yourselves. If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

News flash. In a shocking new revelation new revelation, Israel refuses to take responsibility for its actions.I suppose the palestinians are to blame for the sewage flood because they're the ones who took a crap.God, you guys are as pathetic as the palestinians. Remind me again why the US -- or anyone for that matter -- should support your cause any more than we support Hamas?

the judge is not a good judge. if he were a good judge, he would not decide that the gaza parliament building did not change its character after hamas seized power. that's like saying that the reichstag did not change character throughout its history.

Seems wrong to me when the history of Hamas is using UN and civillian cover to fire from.

Quote: "in other words, the man is totally biased in favour of not only the palestinians, but also of hamas." Oye vey, the good Judge hasn't got a chance against you, Cipora...

Was your blood also boiling when for years Gazzans were firing rockents into Israel, killing and/or wounding Israelis? Or, perhaps, it is that you have a very, very selctive heat capacity?

the report contains a very good map of gaza. there are many more unbuilt areas than built areas. people most certainly had where to flee.

As Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian put it in Collateral Damage: America's War Against Iraqi Civilians (Nation Books, 2008), "the news shows that packaged and sold us the war have stopped covering it." Americans like you either have no idea what is going on over there, the attitude that "they don't speak English and they have darker skin, they're not as human as us, so we can do what we want" (p. xix), with the result that "American marines and soldiers have become socialized to atrocity" (p. xiii)or if you do have even some inkling, fail to recognize that your repeatedly writing posts here that drip with glib American self-satisfaction and smugness is unseemly at best.

for once, you are wrong. the issues are not mainly about facts. they are about legal interpretations. they are about bias. his claim, for example, that the gaza police was a civilian agency is belied by facts. those facts were available to him. how those facts were interpreted were his decisions. he did not take into account that hamas is a totalitarian de facto government. under totalitarian systems, there are no civilian police. goldstone, as an international lawyer, has certain goals. the main goal is to impose his legal views on the world. he is not part of any democratically elected state. he and those in his position can do as they please.

I think you should do a little fact-checking. Maybe you could start with Israeli Government spokesman Mark Regev as he states the FACT that Hamas DID NOT fire rockets. (Maybe he should have checked with your sources!) Then you can get back to me with some kind of "mind-boggling" nonsense excuse.

"How many mothers got one of these calls and ran her family into a sniper`s bullets? We`ll never know." How many mothers protested, warned, and threatened their husbands, sons, and male relatives to stop firing rockets into Israel before Israel had to take the drastic step of invading Gaza to stop the attacks? We'll also never know but we can certainly imagine that not many did.

it would have made no difference if israel had let in goldstone and confronted him. the issues are not mainly about factual matters. they are about how he views the conflict. it is about his legal interpretations. it is about his refusal to accept any of israel's positions. in other words, the man is totally biased in favour of not only the palestinians, but also of hamas. if his report is accepted as is, israel will have no right to self defence. she will be deprived of what the un charter grants every sovereign state. that was the goal of the un. goldstone did not accuse israel of some specific war crimes. he accused israel of deliberate and willful killing of the civilian population of gaza. he basically claims that the entire civilian and military leadership of israel are war criminals who committed crimes against humanity.

All it boils down to is: There will be no investigation, only the usual excuses by the most immoral army in the world.

AND from his right wing cohorts.

Everyone will concentrate on the detailed answers to the Goldstone report, and disregard all sweeping statements about how nice the IDF is. I hope the IDF understands the need for professionality required in answering the accusations of a judge.

do we have pictures of dead chickens wearing masks and ammo belts?

I hope the IDF after-action report is better than this story. "We can't shoot straight" isn't a real good reason for destroying a building and food source. And speculation that Hamas was storing explosives among the sewage is hardly a reasonable defense. Israel should at least have an independent commission look at the sorry excuses put forth by the IDF. It should also look into who heard what from the IDF Chief Rabbi before entering on the Destruction-of-Amelek campaign.

... If the flour mill was accidentally destroyed, why has Israel prevented the importation of parts so it could be repaired? C'mon Chris old boy, you're not that naive. Can you guarantee that the materials needed to rebuild the flour mill won't be diverted by Hamas for other uses? Bricks and timber and metal beams can be used to build bomb factories, and motors and machinery can be used for military purposes. Has it never occurred to you to ask why Hamas refuses to agree to international monitoring to ensure that any building materials and machinery that is allowed into Gaza is used only for civilian purposes?

Those who criticize Israel, when the time comes to do the same, does much worser than what Israel had done in Gaza. History is full of with sufficient examples. in Black September 1973 Jordans King Hussein had killed 11 000 Palies in 15 days. Aby

Please stop this childish denial, for once behave like men. Assume your responsibilities and your crimes. Your ridicule "proofs" make Israel the world's laughing stock. Better than being hated ? Right ?

"Did Hamas refrain from launching rockets into "Israel" during the cease-fire?- YES." Not true - there were about 40 morters and or rockets fired during the cease fire. Technically the first one broke the ceasefire. Why do you consider all those not breaking the cease fire, but only one Israeli raid to preempt a tunnel strick you consider a breaking of the ceasefire

"until UN stops its oppression"? you have GOT to be joking; right?

goldstone will remain as renowned as ever... and probably even MORE so, for having the courage and integrity to remain objective DESPITE his love for israel.

Was the killing of over 1400 civilians an ACCIDENT???? My blood boils when I see the "excuses" Israel gives for this war! What about those innocent women and children? What about the UN building "accident"?

That was a political decision. A mistake no doubt. Hamas fired thousands of missiles. Into Israeli towns and the city of Ashkelon. 8 years of missiles. No country on this planet would sit back, without retaliation. So, Israel retaliated. The cost in human lives is appalling. Same goes for the infrastructure of Gaza. No amount of rebuttals or challenges will undo the failure of non cooperation with said report. The UN is no friend of Israel. Israel is in the front line of the extreme Islamic challenge. So is Iraq,Afghanistan Pakistan Yemen and Somalia. Soon enough so will the EU,UK and the USA. The Hon.Goldstone, was used wisely, he is not anti Israel, nor pro terrorist Hamas. His report was based on findings with the cooperation by one party. The Palestinians. PM Netanyahu may well discover that its time to place his ears close to the railway line. For the train has already left the station. Good day from snowy Swiss Alps.

It is very easy to call people when you know that they have nowhere to Escape!!

How many civilians did the Americans, British, and the other allies in WW2 bomb and napalm on purpose? When London was hit by missiles from German launchers did anyone demand an investigation of the British response by Lancaster bombers over German cities? America went to war after a military target was hit by the Japanese-did the Us have to justify that? Israel is at war with Islamic terrorists who routinely target busesm restaurants and markets-we don't have to justify our defense to anyone!!!

that Palestine should have to answer to the world why it chose to respond to 10 years of indiscriminate shelling, missiles, and gunfire against its citizens. The only question any sane person would ask is why the world ignored the shellings, missiles, and bullets for so long.

the way that should have read.

them they were going to be bombed, it was that the IDF used exactly the same sort of phone calls to terrorize people they weren't going to bomb, and even when they were actually sending a warning rather than a threat, it was almost useless as a warning. When running in the streets was almost as dangerous as cowering in the closets, telling a mother to take her children and run, without saying which way was safer, doesn't cut much slack. How many mothers got one of these calls and ran her family into a sniper's bullets? We'll never know.

But it does not happend. It will never happen. And only Israel will get a Goldy report. And this is the problem here.

Where us Goldy?

The UN specifically called for an IDEPENDENT inquiry, this rebuttal is based on the....IDF..inquring IDF crimes... Are you kidding us?

How is it possible for Israels supporters to continue to make comment regarding the attack on Gaza, in which they claim that Israel was just responding to years of rocket fire from Hamas? I accept that the "Israeli view" is supposed to be the ONLY view to be accepted BUT: Did Hamas and Israel have a cease-fire which Hamas had held to for many months? - YES. Was part of the cease-fire deal that Israel would lift the "blockade" of Gaza? - YES. Did Israel abide by the above and lift the blockade? - NO. Did Hamas refrain from launching rockets into "Israel" during the cease-fire?- YES. Did Israel, a few days before the cease-fire ended, attack inside Gaza and kill six Palestinians (Hamas)?- YES. Did Hamas RETALIATE? YES. Was their retaliation LEGITIMATE? - YES. Is it plain to see that Israel had long-planned the attack on Gaza and deliberately PROVOKED Hamas response? YES. Were the people of Sderot reported as having welcomed the peace which the cease-fire had brought them? - YES

At a guess, it'll turn out we just have to take your word for it. Anyway (in case you haven't figured it out), you're about to run into a problem. If there are ten allegations, and you disprove two, the implication is that the other eight are valid. ...As they no doubt are. You know what you did. So do we.

"It should open the borders and agree to a peace settlement with the Palestinians." Do you see a trust issue here? When Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel why would the Israelis be so open to "open borders". When Israel offers a hand of peace and gives the Palestinians control of Gaza and the answer is putting Hamas in power and the firing of rockets then what do you expect? BTW - Hamas the elected body of Gaza does not want a negotiated settlement.

Or, perhaps, obtuse... "This indicates that there are essential flaws, bias and "many problems". If the author has any evidence that point in this direction he or she could write a story that would be of much higher value to the community than this one." O hasn't been keeping up on all the essential flaws, biases, and many problems which have already been elaborated upon. Mr. O (for Oblivious) thinks it is encumbent upon the author of this article to elaborate, instead of reporting the story as it stands before him. Yep, O is for Oblivious.

"From what I see here, Israel is on an endless treadmill of their own making by continually blaming others for their actions." Did Israel make Hamas fire rockets for 7 years, with a massive crescendo of rocket fire a week before Cast Lead?

I love how the sympathizers love to bring up Tibet, Darfur, etc... to try and say that war crimes are ok because other nations commit them. Do you seriously think that this effectively defelcts from the crimes against humanity that ISrael commits? Ohhhh, these other brutal regimes commit them (USA included, the biggest human rights abuser by far, way ahead of Israel) so it`s ok? Just because the USA is all powerful and can escape judgment doesn`t mean that Israel should be able to do the same. This is a really, really bad argument, and doesn`t help the case for Israel in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, it effectively equates Israel with other brutal human rights abusers.

"The Best Evidence Photoshop Can Create...Come on the only people who will believe this stuff are the people who have been trained not to think." If you were trained to think, you'd figure out there are experts who can tell if a photo is faked.

The UN demanded a report from Israel accounting for its actions. Israel did, and apparently provides proof that its actions were justified. The immediate response from the Jew haters? Israel's lying, and its a bogus report. Israel provided evidence? They're making it up. Israel made mistakes? Israel couldn't have made any mistakes, anything they did was a delibarate plot, as all Jewish plots are. But of course, these same people demanded that Israel submit a report stating that "if you have nothing to hide, then why not provide a report". Dammned period. Do, don't, doesn't matter.

Israel ostensibly attacked Gaza because of the rockets being fired from the latter. Why the rockets? For instance, many were fired at Sderot. Why? There was a peaceful Palestine village at the site, called Najd, with 600 residents. Israel razed it in 1948 and cleansed it of its people,(who went to Gaza and were not allowed to return) and built Sderot upon the ruins. Thus the rockets. This is what happens to people who have been deprived of their land, water, the way they make their living and their dignity. Who wouldn't fire rockets, such as they have? Israel get out of the settlements and end the occupation, then the world may respect you again. Israel's excuses are a joke.

When america demanded that Israel produce a report on the USS Liberty attack, the Israelis did such a white wash of the attack that they could not correctly put in their report the side of the ship they attacked with their torpedos. Lets see how they have advanced in their methods of lying to the world this time.

It seems you've been called an anti-Semite, and I guess you didn't like it. Look fella, you make wild and unsupported charges of photoshopping against Israel. Now prove it! Show us a case where it happened. Now on the Palestinian side I'll prove your accusations about Israel to be true, but not for Israel, but for the Palestinians and Hezbollah. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys Here: http://www.seconddraft.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=422&Itemid=171 and here: http://www.aish.com/v/50574432.html and so as usual Israel is falsely is accused of what its enemies routinely do, lie. Does it upset you? I just blew you out of the water, I don't know are you an anti-Semite???? CASE CLOSED

shame on you Israel lie after lies after lies!!!

Again two wrongs does not makes it right but in democratic country like israel there is big different

is very "accident" prone... bombs straying in Lebanon hitting UN posts killing four UN soldiers, oil storage tanks causing at least 10 000 tons of heavy oil to spill into the Mediterranean, four highway bridges in Christian area North of Beirut and innocent civilians... Cluster bombs dropped in Lebanon and Gaza by the 'butter fingers' IDF. An "accident" of course!

Yes. The extremist Muslims are professionalized using human shields for gain. The blunder of the Arab Muslim?s word history was not to stand by their cousin, the Jews, when Hitler was slaughtering them as if the Muslim were not next in line. When Jerusalem was in the hand of the Arab, it was ignored and looked a less holy only to be seen today as a holy, clean and a source of abundance. As today, what is the Muslims world fear from the Jews of Israel that Jerusalem was their birth land to start with? No one could deny that Jerusalem was the birth land of the Jews from the beginning. The mentality if my mother weeps let all other mothers weep. This is a wrong mentality that the Palestinian believes in. The common ground is forgiveness and to let all the Arabs borders open to the Jew to honor them and protect them because they are the children of Abraham. God went out of his way to let Moses free them from the bondage of Farah. The Jew is the core of who we are as Christians, Muslims and Jews. I profoundly believe that government of Israel has to do its part by changing the main core of its Zion dream because it leads to a timeless killing and hate.

...on this board... It's obvious what happened,caused by Hamas,these comments condemning Israel for blowing up a flour mill,for Gods sake,to deprive the pals food,is ludicrous. Are people really that naive/gullible to believe this crap,or do they hate so much??

One war crime of the hamas "heroes",darfs anything else what happened. TO LOBBY ROCKETS AND MORTAR SHELLS INTO ISRAEL,FROM THE MIDSTS OF CIVILIANS,IS THE SAME AS TO USE THEM AS CIVILIAN HUMAN SHIELDS... SHOOTING ISRAELI SOLDIERS FROM INSIDE mosques and hospitals and TO USE THE SAME HOSPITALS, mosques AS MUNITIONS DEPOTS,THIS IS THE REAL WAR CRIME...BUT THIS SORDID WORLD,EQUATES THE TERRORISTS TO THEIR VICTIMS...A REAL u.n. CESSPOOL

Typical zionist procedure - when accused, change the subject. The greenhouses and the Hamas Charter have nothing to do with the damage caused during Israel's Gaza offensive.

Lavi. Not sure about these cluster munitions. If memory serves I recall in the June 2006 war the jew State?s entire arsenal of cluster bombs was dropped in Lebanon within 48 hours of a known truce to be in effect. Cluster bombs have since been banned as their primary purpose is to maim and kill women and children long after hostilities have ended.

not even the best liars in the world can lie you out of this one....

why is Israel preventing it's replacement?

Why have Israel prevented the importation of parts so it could be repaired?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055126.html WATCH: IDF says Hamas has professionalized use of human shields in Gaza

The GALLSTONE

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054533.html WATCH: IDF uncovers booby-trapped school next to Gaza zoo Israel Defense Forces troops operating in the Gaza Strip this week uncovered a school and an adjacent zoo rigged by Hamas militants with a large amount of explosives. The school and zoo were entirely surrounded by a fuse connecting to the explosives. Inside the abandoned classrooms, IDF troops found a number of weapons. Audibly shocked IDF soldiers videotape themselves following the fuse to the explosives, past cages of animals and a room filled with weaponry, and on into the school. "We are continuing to confront a mad reality of booby-trapped tunnels, booby-trapped schools," IDF spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said. "In one district of 150 houses, more than 30 were booby-trapped. Hamas booby-traps every house that residents leave." Leibovich said residential neighborhoods in Gaza are riddled with homemade bombs and booby-traps, including mannequins placed at apartment entrances to simulate militants and rigged to explode if soldiers approach.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057874.html Italian paper: Gazans say Hamas kept them in homes used by gunmen Palestinian civilians have accused Hamas of forcing them to stay in homes from which gunmen shot at Israeli soldiers during the recent hostilities in Gaza, the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera reported Thursday. Top IDF officer: Hamas made 'monstrous' use of children during Gaza op The IDF Gaza Division Commander on Thursday, meanwhile, branded Hamas' use of women and children during the offensive in Gaza as "monstrous" and "inhumane." Brig. Gen. Eyal Eisenberg said the civilians were sent by Hamas to transfer weapons to gunmen during the offensive. He also accused the Islamist militant group of booby-trapping many of the civilians' homes. "Entire families in Gaza lived on top of a barrel of explosives for months without knowing," Eisenberg said.

... enough to tie his shoes, that Israel should have to answer to the world why it chose to respond to 8 years of indiscriminate rocket fire against its citizens. The only question any sane person would ask is why it took so long.

... destroyed by an Israeli drone's cluster munitions, he would probably believe them too! How can some Israeli greenhouses in Gaza be so productive one day and so unproductive, even non-existent the next? In the former case we had caretakers that both talked big and did, and in the latter case we have those that just talk big and do nothing constructive but everything destructive. Therefore no sustaining produce for the Gazans came from these greenhouses only retaliatory fire from the IDF targeting the rocket launchers. The Goldstone Report forgot to include as a preface, the unforgiving and relentless Hamas Charter, it also forgot to footnote it or refer to it in the bibliography. It did however almost swallow its modus operandi whole and spit up only excuses for Hamas' terror and their instigating acts of war.

Finally. This development is most welcome by all those keenly following this matter.

forget it ISRAEL you're looking at a no win situation. gobstone was given a mandate which he carried out to the full. IT's not ISRAELS juristiction to prove ban, gobstone & their organisations wrong....DK