Islamic Movement condemns Palestinian lesbian conference

The Qur'an does condemn lesbianism, not specifically, but indirectly through the term lewdness, as recorded in Sura Al-Nisa. "if any of your women are guilty of "lewdness." It is more specifically by name condemned in the hadith literaturer as sihaq.

the civilised nations should coat every islamofascist society with air-dropped pamphlets exibiting photos of beautiful acts of human sexuality. the sheer truth and beauty of these images would instantly draw all human beings to throw off their heavy black blankets and make love not war.

Well said, Dave. I might add that the United States also utilized religion as justification for the enslavement of Africans. They wanted the heathens from the dark continent to understand how much better off they would be laboring under the hot sun in a Christian country.

what a hell is going on in this world? why we live oversexed?

News to me. Have you suffered from this persecution complex long? I've never paid any attention to whether it was an Israeli or not that I was responding to, more like if they were gay or straight, and I have no idea who the people are behind the pseudonyms Tosefta and Ben Gurion. You don't seem to be a very skilled reader though. If I married someone in one state and then crossed into another, it would definitely not be a SHE I would be marrying. The question is theoretical, at least until a second state legalizes gay marriage. I do live in LA, though, in the Silverlake hills. Hope you and your sheep are happy together. And it's capisce, not capiche.

You also seem unaware that even if someone is gay or lesbian, that in no way precludes them from reproducing and raising children. This wild homosexual lifestyle you seem to be imagining exists mainly in your fantasies and is really not very different from straight singles. If anything, your argument is one FOR gay narriage, so that we will settle down and raise children like our straight peers. As for the passing of diseases like AIDS through interspecies sexual contact, you offer no proof, but there is plenty of empirical evidence to one who uses their eyes that most disease is passed either from one human to another or is water or air born.

Efox, you are missing the point, and I suspect deliberately. Children do not have the capacity to understand the consequences of a romantic entanglement, whatever the law may say. As for animals, how do they propose, by document, by intercourse or by something worth a prutah? In other words if a human uses an animal, say his pet, for sex, the pet, totally dependant on the human does not even have the possibility of refusing, nor does it understand what is happening. Either case is a false analogy and there is a railing preventing the slippery slope. You then argue that if you have twelve year olds having sex, they will be so busy with child rearing that they will be unable to care adaquately for their offspring, but if you have gay relationships, you won't have children and society will die out or be replaced. Do make up your mind!

attempts at obfuscation, however, your post has nothing to do with any issues I raised. My posts have been answered. How would you rule? BTW, we don't have nuts running around here in Nevada shouting that they are god's chosen people, big difference! Regards anyway.

Ladies and Gents, please listen to Dave as he is absolutely right! Religion (any religion) is a cancer that seeks to divide people. Imagine for a second that there was no such barrier. In this imaginary world every man would truly be a brother.... makes sense?

Honor and humiliation, these are the guiding principles of the Arab Moslem and much of the Arab jews in Israel. I happen to have alot of friends of Iraqi origin. More than two thousand years in Iraq, they acquired much of the elements that make up the Arab personality. Just like the Christians. There are times when discussions feel like walking through a mine-field, one has to watch what subjects you broach, and what you find humorous but which for them is taboo. And there are many. Humiliation is the major issue and the crux of the problem here. In 1948 they lost a war to the jews. In most wars the loser retires and licks his wounds seeking a way out of the conflict. With the Arabs it is more of a total humiliation at being defeated by dhimmi Jews. And this is something they find hard for their egos and honor to come to terms with. I am optimistic, I know some Arabs that have discarded much of the Hamoulah (Clan) canard. but for women it is speciallytough

Honor and humiliation, these are the guiding principles of the Arab Moslem and much of the Arab jews in Israel. I happen to have alot of friends of Iraqi origin. More than two thousand years in Iraq, they acquired much of the elements that make up the Arab personality. Just like the Christians. There are times when discussions feel like walking through a mine-field, one has to watch what subjects you broach, and what you find humorous but which for them is taboo. And there are many. Humiliation is the major issue and the crux of the problem here. In 1948 they lost a war to the jews. In most wars the loser retires and licks his wounds seeking a way out of the conflict. With the Arabs it is more of a total humiliation at being defeated by dhimmi Jews. And this is something they find hard for their egos and honor to come to terms with. I am optimistic, I know some Arabs that have discarded much of the Hamoulah (Clan) canard. but for women it is speciallytough

Hi Dana, thank you for your posting. REgarding Tosefta, I would not characterize it as an obsession, more as a crusade, on a minor scale. He knows the strength of locating himself in Israel, it carries more weight and brings the "eye-witness" aspect to his writings. But it is a lie. He writes well, if you like the university essay style. It is filled with quotes and facts, but it totally void of any personal experience. when I arrived here, to live in 1992, I became acquainted with Israel and it's people more intimately. I used to be left, but that has changed, but I am certainly not right. As an artist and musician I prize the freedom of expression that I have here. But living in Wadi Ara, sending my son to a mixed Moslem-jewish school I have learned alot about Arab society and it's workings. Much of it is based on honor and family, actually like most third world coutnries I have visited. Saving face, humiliation and violence are interwoven...

Tosefta has now posted in early afternoon and evening (you should know by now that I follow these things, being a temporal expert). Now these would be truly ungodly hours in LA, no? Not too popular in the east coast either. Hope you did not totally disrupt this poor man's sleep habits because of your insistence on full good faith disclosure of his whereabouts! My question to you is, why do you care so much? I bet the majority of posters here are not totally forthcoming with their precise spatial placement at any given time. Why do you take an issue with Tosefta in particular? Is it envy? obssession? I had the same question by the way for the ones who hounded Sullivan (hasn't been around lately, either). Am assuming that there are some who have too much time on their hands and turn everything into a soap opera. I will actually appreciate an answer from you on this - had another posting for you on Bradley's earlier board too on these issues. Note; my CURRENT true location disclosed!

You write:'A not so simple question: if nothing exists without creator, who created God? and if you can believe he always existed why can`t you believe the univers always existed?And if we are too limited to understand God why not say we are too limited to answer your question?' You can't be serious?! 1. to even imagine that speculation about the earth & galaxy having always existed is smart, is beyond belief. Observation evidences that heavenly bodies (stars, etc) emerge and die. They have a start & an end. Our galaxy must have a start & end. 2. You can't observe spiritual beings- this is a dimension beyond our 3D & natural plane. Science & observation cannot deal with these, & hence can neither prove nor disprove them. Hence, you analogy is flawed. 3. By the way religion is based on knowledge- spiritual knowledge, not attainable by Science. Science is ill-equiped to observe or quantify spiritual reality. 4. Hence, Russel started from the wrong premise.

hey maureen stop hanging around with Paul. Get out of Oz and come over to Israel. Karkur has quite the Lesbian community, very spirited. I could set you up if you like. Honest.

Golem your post was wonderful it was so you. "animals or what ever else they`ve been fantasizing about." So tell me what is wrong with dating your sheep? seriously. You then go on to state that the distinction is very simple. Yes for a simple mind. "Children cannot give legally informed consent." Golem this is a bugaboo. It seems that the median age of consent changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. it ranges from 14-16 years of age, the maximum being 21. which means Tosefta or Golem or Ben Gurion that if you find yourself dating a girl and she is 15, you could cross into another state you could become a fellon. Capiche? As taboos fall and we find ourselves questioning all our traditions, including incest it is only to be expected that the religious elements will react. Ying-Yang, the world seeks balance. As for Lesbians, I wish them peace and happiness, and the freedom to fondle each other as much as they like, as long as it is with consen

Oh finally. it took me the longest time to get Tosefta to change his name and location when he called himself Ben Gurion, and labeled his location as Tsde Boker. I know that Tossi has been itching to attack my posts, but until now he did not know how, thus the name change. Thanks Golem, from Los Angeles. Now it makes sense why you never write when Israelis participate in this forum. As for the pedophile slippery slope theory, never heard it before. But it good to know that my attempt at irony is an accepted theory! I have been on this earth for a while and remember when abortion, homosexuality, porn, gambling and incest were considered taboo. Much has changed, most of the above are totally acceptable today. Is this good or bad, I don't mind. Now incest has hit the courts in Germany, so what is next, something is always next, always.

You speak about simple questions (simplistic?) How can the word exist without a creator? That is no proof even in a court of law and any judge would allow an ojection on the ground: "speculative and calling for a conclusion" A not so simple question: if nothing exists without creator, who created God? and if you can believe he always existed why can't you believe the univers always existed?And if we are too limited to understand God why not say we are too limited to answer your question?Bertrand Russel,one of the greatest philosophers of the last century was atheist. If the subject is so simple your I.Q. must be quite over his. If there was irrefutable proof of God's existence it would be part of science and not of religions. Religion is based on faith not knowledge, your questions have been asked and answered long ago

at quitpalestine.org. These poor tortured and misguided souls. If they really believe in the people that they are trying to "protect" so much, then why dont they come over to Gaza and see what kinda support they get back in return. If this doesnt change their twisted minds, only a beating at the hands of a Muslim morality police will.

we are just tired of the omophobia widely distributed by the great monotheist religions!!

Please stop shouting on this board, it looks so ugly! If you stop I might actually read your comments posted here. Stop using capital letters and your voice might be heard.

Hey Ballistic, is that Nevada, your location? Well I often read you making some weird comparisons, as if they are equal, so what? "the orthodox jews raised enough sand such that the liberal jews and whatnot canceled the march, true? Okay. Easy point. Regards." Points hmmmm...not when you score on yourself. Own goal for the English. Yes indeed the orthodox Jews, along with their Moslem and Christian budds did create a bit of havoc, but it is their right, as long as they are not beating anyone up. Are you following? There exist a number of gay sites dealing with the treatment of gays in Palestine. I would really like to know if "raising enough sand" is the moral and personal equivalent of "tar and feathering young gay men, and pulling them roped to the back of a pick-up around the town circle" ( not square?). If you were a judge how would you view the situation. Would you hand out the same sentence to both defendents. Do you understand?

MO, YOU OF ALL POSTERS SHOULD NOT GIVE ADVICE ON GRUMPINESS!! THIS POST IS FOR YOU ON THE MUSLIM ABUSE OF ALL HUMAN RIGHTS . DEAL WITH IT !!

ITS ABOUT THE HUMAN RIGHT ABUSES BY ISLAM AND YOUR ARAB FRIENDS !! HAVING LIVED IN CA. I KNOW THAT THERE IS NO REALITY THERE WHATSOEVER AND HEDONISM IS THE ONLY SUBJECT UNDER DISCUSSION

it goes to the heart of why Israel is so wonderful. You can express yourself, anything. Just please, don't preach to rip down the state itself. And please, Moslems, get your radicals out of our and your midst. We're all sick of them. They're violent and deadly. Give us a hand.

the orthodox jews raised enough sand such that the liberal jews and whatnot canceled the march, true? Okay. Easy point. Regards.

three grumpy old men. Share that coffee around Paul.

Out here on the west coast, time zone difference is a challenge - perfectly out of phase with haaretz. Smack in the middle of the dreaded dead time. But, the sun is shining, everything is open for business and berkely is a stone throw away, where you can find any number of genders, all looking good. They all seem to have dogs, too, which also look happy and spoiled. Now, somehow it looks like I wasn't invited to this lesbians conference, along with at least 100 other conferences going on in the world that i also was not invited to. Well, I'll just have to do with this excess sunshine and the outdoor lifestyle for a while. Seems no one cares much about politics here on Sunday. Went rock climbing in the redwood park. Kind of hard to talk, type and climb at the same time....don't feel bad - am not very good at it... (climbing, that is). But wow, there are some real lizards around here.

Was taking a little talk-back break - but you seem to miss me, which I can understand (see, I know we are buddies at heart, but in this life, our job is to argue, though in your case, I am never sure what we are arguing about). Guess what, I don't have that much to say on the gay pal girls topic any more than on the gay issue in general. Pals have the same percentages of gays as anyone else, and are suffering from restrictions imposed by a traditionalst society just like in the US bible belt. The key to a useful life is to keep focus on those few things one can do well (though it may take decades to figure those out). This includes not opining on every possible topic out there, for that would scatter what useful insights there may be too far afield. And no one has useful insights all the time on everything. Note I use the word "useful" in a broad sense. To me useful must include a high degree of happiness and fun, if at all possible. If one is gay, let them be; beats moping around.

Out here on the west coast, time zone difference is a challenge - perfectly out of phase with haaretz. Smack in the middle of the dreaded dead time. But, the sun is shining, everything is open for business and berkely is a stone throw away, where you can find any number of genders, all looking good. They all seem to have dogs, too, which also look happy and spoiled. Now, somehow it looks like I wasn't invited to this lesbians conference, along with at least 100 other conferences going on in the world. Well, I'll just have to do with this excess sunshine and the outdoor lifestyle for a while. Seems no one cares much about politics here on Sunday. Wanna come rock climbing in the redwood park, paul? I am sure we could talk and climb at the same time (well, up to a point).

Was taking a little talk-back break - but you seem to miss me, which I can understand (see, I know we are buddies at heart, but in this life, our job is to argue, though in your case, I am never sure what we are arguing about). Guess what, I don't have that much to say on the gay pal girls topic any more than on the gay issue in general. Pals have the same percentages of gays as anyone else, and are suffering from restrictions imposed by a traditionalst society just like in the US bible belt. The key to a useful life is to keep focus on those few things one can do well (though it may take decades to figure those out). This includes not opining on every possible topic out there, for that would scatter what useful insights there may be too far afield. And no one has useful insights all the time on everything. Note I use the word "useful" in a broad sense. To me useful must include a high degree of happiness and fun, if at all possible. If one is gay, let them be; beats moping around.

...we got with Muslim neighbours all the same if they read or don't read the Qoran...

Just plain fact. Which of course are euphemisms, rah rahs, gnaws and other sundries when they are against your progressive opinions.

Why can't people just live and let live? No one is forcing anyone else to be gay for goodness sake. I don't care what a person's sexuality is as long as we are talking about two consenting adults.

Dave, Your brain has been inflicted to atheism, which is also a religion adopted by some people. That means you've got somewhow a religion. There are many proofs, not only one, around yourself that proves God's existence, if you know how to read them. Since you accuse me of having a 'washed-brain' brain, I assume yours has not been washed. So, would you please use it for a comparison with the PC you've used to post here. Would you think that your PC came into existence without the work of some engineers? Yes, or No? I'll have some more simple logical questions afterwards. Regards,

Swiss Dino IS RIGHT when he states that ( the Muslim and especially the Arab world needs urgently reforms when it comes to women as well as gay and lesbian rights.) you and I ( HowCanYou? )can cite many valid but isolated exceptions to that generalisation , yet the prevelance of social , cultural as well as legal discrimination against both groups ,makes such a generilisation valid despite these exceptions.. Equal rights for women in the Eoupean sense is very much the exception that proves the rule in the muslem/Arab world despite notable progress in some countries. Acceptans of gays/lesbians by either governments or mainstream society is virtualy non existent. You can argue to explain why this is so but not that this is not so.

Even though I do not subscribe to this behavior, I can understand it, having seen it in some friends and also distant relatives offspring. They viewed it as somewhat of a surrealistic painting, trying to distance themselves by commenting "not of our army". Yet, I never heard or saw anything but love for the offender and in once situation, considerable care and attendance in the final moments of an all too terrible death at a much too early an age. We must sometimes look twice to find the real person, keeping in mind what they once were and adhering to that memory.

Dave, Your brain has been inflicted to atheism, which is also a religion adopted by some people. That means you've got somewhow a religion. There are many proofs, not only one, around yourself that proves God's existence, if you know how to read them. Since you accuse me of having a 'washed-brain' brain, I assume yours has not been washed. So, would you please use it for a comparison with the PC you've used to post here. Would you think that your PC came into existence without the work of some engineers? Yes, or No? I'll have some more simple logical questions afterwards. Regards,

Cheney gave his response, though some of the Christian Right may object, I doubt they will have the courage to press the issue after he invites them Quail Hunting.

Children and Animals can not give consent because society and laws forbids them from doing so. Society and laws can set the age, species and gender anywhere they like and you can find a society that has set these bars just about anywhere if you look hard enough. You will also find that they suffered the consequences of doing so. Children who have children end their childhood with less education which is why industrialized societies need higher ages of consent. People who have sex with animals contract interspecies diseases like AIDS; which is also abundant thanks to Sodomy. You can have twelve year olds marrying, but you will wind up with a country that is primitive and backwards. You can have rampant homosexuality as well, but you will wind up with devastation, if not by nature and disease, by more productive societies that replace you.

Dave, Your brain has been inflicted to atheism, which is also a religion adopted by some people. That means you've got somewhow a religion. There are many proofs, not only one, around yourself that proves God's existence, if you know how to read them. Since you accuse me of having a 'washed-brain' brain, I assume yours has not been washed. So, would you please use it for a comparison with the PC you've used to post here. Would you think that your PC came into existence without the work of some engineers? Yes, or No? I'll have some more simple logical questions afterwards. Regards,

There is nothing I would rather do than impose the liberal left on the Islamic World. In the long term however, it seems the Islamic World will purge the west, of its left. In the end there is a Darwinian Aspect. Those who do not defend themselves and do not reproduce do not have a future.

At least it's in Haifa and not Jerusalem. Let's hope it's also indoors and does have an 'in your face' attitude.

At least it's in Haifa and not Jerusalem. Let's hope it's also indoors and does have an 'in your face' attitude.

There is much more freedom for gays and lesbians in Israel than in most Western countries. I can see you have no basis on which to make your claims. They are free to be themselves, have parades, businesses, free movement - all because it's not considered a "disease" or a "blight on humanity" as it is in neighboring countries. You do bring up a good point regarding marriages. It has little to do with being gay, and more to do with the religious controls over the institution of marriage. Secular marriages are not currently allowed in Israel but much of the public is pushing for this (and yet no one gets killed or condemned for it). However, Israel accepts civil marriages from other countries, which most Israelis do in Cyprus to avoid the religious red tape. If gays get married in Mass, USA for example, it will be recongized.

Pity that you cannot come to grips with a religion that is based on war and murder. When have religious Jews ever killed or counselled to kill but the Muslims well: Every Friday sermon exhorts the amsses to kill, JIhad, Hizbulla,Hamas have perfected it and I have only scratched the surface. But for sheer barbarity IRAN-IRAQ: SHIA-SUNNI come to mind. It is very disengenous of you to compare The Jewish Orthodox to your Mullahs.Or is it ignorance or just old fashioned shit disturbing.

answer but I guess your answer boiled down to "the religious jews raising hell stopped the non religious jews from having the 'heathen' march'. Does that sum it up in 1 line, course you used a lotta euphemisms and I like to get to the point. Anyway. Regards and thanks.

There is no religious marriage ceremony for gays in Israel. That hasn't stopped gay couples living in the open, with all the legal rights of any other couple, in a marriage contract prepared by lawyers that deal with this issue. Problem solved.

You obviously believe that your rights should be automatically catered to without a moment's hesitation, while denying the rights of others, especially with those you deride. The gay parade in Tel Aviv is the event of the year. Jerusaelm is a city of a more religious nature, and if such a parade harms the sensibilities of a great portion if its population, then it has to be considered. Please let me know the next time there is a gay parade in any other mideast country. By the way, the Islamic movement in Israel supported the anti-gay parade lobby. There, does that make you feel better!

Only those religious women who wat to keep seperate from men get on special buses at their disposal. It is not the law of the country, and most women, even religious ones, don't particularly seek out this service. There is a huge difference between voluntary adherence to one's beliefs and state-imposed adhherence to the beliefs of the leaders. You should be able to tell the difference.

In your blind obedience to whatever fairy tale religion you've been brainwashed into believing (probably Islam) you've just shown whatever intelligence you may have and ability to use any common sense has been suppressed. Just think about what you said in your post. If one or two or three or even 100 Catholic priests were convicted of pedophilia your post would make sense, but are not not aware it is a common occurrence? Is it all coincidence that this occurs? Of course not! Their religion demands that they abstain from any sex but since these priests are still only human their sexual urges must be released somehow - and we see how. On children. Another example: how many millions have died in war due to religion? Look at Iraq today. Religion instills a viciously violent extremisim in people, e.g. Osama bin Laden that harms human kind in the worst ways. Do yourself a favor Fatih, break out of your brainwashed robotic state. Ask yourself the question? Is there REAL proof of God?

You never played Trivial Pursuit ? Q: What was Hitler religion A: Catholic. Since Torquemada was such a criminal I suppose he was atheist as were those who burned Giordano Bruno or those who decapitate adulterous women in Saudi Arabia and Aghfaistan. Atheists all of course

Everytime gay or lesbian rights are challanged someone brings up the same slippery slope argument about pedophiles, animals or what ever else they've been fantasizing about. The distinction is very simple. Children cannot give legally informed consent. The question of the gender of their partner is irrelevant. Go back to your 2 girls and a guy mags and get what you can out of them. These women will never be staight, never available to men of their own free will. Be proud, Israel, that you have enough freedom that even oppressed Arab women feel safer within your borders than in their own communities. And pray for a time when all people will feel free enough to hold such a conference in their own countries. Pesakh, the time of our Freedom, is coming. What an excellent time for this announcement.

It is not as far fetched as it may seem to the rest of the world but in the muslim world the men are not their for their women after all they much rather play terrorists , during the day they sleep and can't be bothered and then at night they lay mines to kill the innocents and the armies which protect the innocents . Soon enough they will realize their women are getting sex from the combat soldiers they are trying to kill . Women from all over need love , so if its lesbian love or orgies with other men and women these women need it and their men can't supply it . Muslim women want independence the old ways are on there way out . Imagine if a women is home with kids and her husband is not home for years , she must be stir crazy and needs a man . After all zionist can have two meanings if you know what I mean .

I thought Lesbians and gay couples don't have enough freedom in Israel aswell as in Palestine. Marriage is not allwed in Israel.

Meka for the Mekans.

Finger cross budy.

Mr. Neighbor, Ha'aretz censored out my comment about Khaled Meshal. I don't blame them. I am sure it would have raised a few hackels in the Hamas community. But then that was the intent. Like basketball court talk. "Don't bring that weak ____ in here." I would love to see some visiting officials in talkback. Olmert, Abbas, Rice, Ross, Haniyeh, Erekat, Lieberman. That would make an interesting talk back. Peace. Steve

pen pal, Paul Harris, lives in one, probably you too. Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up with Paul Harris. Regards.

Neighbor, So you are saying that the punishment in Islam is worse for converting to Christianity than it is for converting to homosexuality. Oddly, from my reading, that is against the Quran as well. It seems that there are many things in the Sharia that ignore or defy the Quran. How do peace and surrender to Allah relate to these ridiculous pronouncements of punishment. I think Ahmedinejad looks a bit girly. Maybe he should get the axe (or is it hanging). How can Islamic society be taken seriously if there texts are not open to public scrutiny and opinion. This is the type of clandestine religion that Martin Luther protested in the Catholic. If the Catholic church behaved today as it did in the 15th and 16th century it would be dismissed as a dinosaur refuge of the ignorant. Sound familiar? Peace. Steve

ballistic knows all about trailers.

When it comes down to it, Pals always run to Israel where they are more free. During the Gay Rights Parade, many gay and lesbian Pals came to the parade because (one said) "it was the only place I could be open about being gay. If my village knew about this, I would be killed immediately." Same with other Arabs who seek to express themselves freely with other Arabs without the risk of death at the hands of their Arab governments. The truth is tough to digest for you, I know. Because you always thought you were superior to the Jews and can live without them.

Why were not the gays permitted to march in Jerusalem for their Gay Pride Day? Those relgious folks who stopped it, what are they guided by? The Koran?

Well, er, what happened with that touted Gay Pride Parade in Jersusalem that didn't happen, who stopped that?

and I asked if religious female jews have to sit in the back of the bus in Haifa as one poster #22 has alleged? Haaretz didn't print it, so it must be true!! Have coffee. I also read on Haaretz you don't pay your women workers equal to the men. Have some more coffee. Further I said people in glass trailers shouldn't throw stones and that you should keep the wheels on it to make it easier to move off of Pal land. Have more coffee. Religious Jews prevented the Gay Pride parade in Jerusalem, didn't they? Ah, thought so. Hold those stones mate!

?According to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979. Altogether, an estimated 100,000 Iranians have been put to death over the last 26 years of clerical rule.? It is unclear if sodomy is illegal in Palestine. The social taboo is overwhelming and there have not been reports in the press of anyone being charged with sodomy. Homosexuals are routinely murdered by their families, or escape to Israel or other countries. do you need more examples?

YOU WILL NEVER BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AGAIN

I see it is time for your daily swipe, but this time you are, how shall I say it? Wrong. There is very little if any violence between the relgious in Israel, between Islam and Judaism. Sorry buddy but it is not those guys in black with long beards and earlocks who are getting into scraps with their fellow religious Moslems. I think you have been looking at too many anti-semitic cartoons in Al-Ahram.

Much is being written here about the right to sexual orientation...And about how intolerant these Islamic leaders are, for merely speaking out. However, many of the posts here reveal a hateful intolerance too. The Islamic leaders have as much right as anyone to freedom of expression and to protest (yes, protest) and condemn conduct they deem evil. They have NOT called for anyone to be killed, beaten, etc. They are within their rights. THAT is tolerance- not some of the drivel posted here.

Sure, why not. The news of the Islamic Movement condemning a Lesbian luow, is not news. this is to be expected. There is a clash today between traditionalists and the forces of change. The world being a Ying-Yang kind of a place, seeks balance. In the last twenty years or so, we have come to accept homosexuality, abortion, suicide bombers,and now in Germany a brother and sister are seeking to marry and have children. My oh my. so why not pedophilia? Socrates and the ancient Greeks praised the relationship between a wise older man and a young pup, terming it is best of all deals. At this time it is still taboo. But who is to say that some court in Athens Greece or Georgia, will not side with a pedophile as a case of personal expression and lifestyle. I would like to say that I do not support pedophilia, and this meassage comes batteries included.

A sentence of death for conversion is equally stupid!!

Hi, to be honest, I know very well, that I am not always politically super-correct with my posts (although I would humbly say that there are still a few worse guys around here...). And you surely have a point when it comes to Christian fundamentalists (the Christian Right in the U.S. for example) and human sexuality. But you would still have to show me a Christian country in the West, where gays and lesbians are facing as many restrictions as in any Arab country, or in other words, is there any Muslim (Arab) country where both of them can live their sexuality as openly as in the "Christian" West...?? And is there any country in the Western hemis- phere, where women are not allowed to drive a car...?? Look, I am really not a guy who is under suspi- cion of inciting anti-Muslim hatred, but if you are honest, you will admit that the Muslim and especially the Arab world needs urgently reforms when it comes to women as well as gay and lesbian rights.

(and they're not alone)

Now we see that unity is possible between Jews and Muslims. The ultra-orthodox Jews who went ballistic over a gay pride march in Jerusalem have common cause with the Muslims who want to stone lesbians. Birds of a feather flock together. Isn't religion wonderful! We can throw in some Christian Zionists and have a totally monotheistic pogrom of gays and lesbians. Allah, Yahweh, and Jesus would be so proud!

You are wrong that Christian Scripture contains nothing on lesbianism. From Romans 1:18-27 (though I only took extracts). The context is clear. 18For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... 21Because...they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves]. 24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies...26For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one, 27And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze...with lust for one another-men committing shameful acts with men... Hope that helps.

Dear Dave, Would please also indicate which item on your list is the command of any religion, i.e, Islam, Christianity and Judaism? You'd better blame the people who go astray, or the causes that lead people astray. I think you would blame a match factory when a guy sets a house into fire. Fatih

No Pope! I dont see your point! Because your point is absolutely false!! Not all Arab countries are Saudi Arabia, even in Saudi they wouldn't execute someone for stopping to read the Quran. According to Islam a person is sentenced to be executed IF he/she converts FROM Islam, that involves a lot more than stopping from reading the Quran. To reitirate my point, there are MANY Muslims today in the Arab world and elsewhere who are mostly Muslims by name and not practice. They do believe in Allah and Mohammad, they believe in the Quran and all that. They simply dont read it, the don't pray, the rarely fast. You'd be surprised of how many of these there are these days. To add to all that...technically, in Islam the punishment for not reading the Quran is: Nothing!! This is one of the sins a Muslim would be punished for in the afterlife and not by civil law. To cut things very short...Mr Pope, you're wrong.

You said: "The.biggest.mass.murders.of.last.century. Stalin.Le"nin.Hitler.Pol.Pot.were.athiests. humanity.is.sinful.religion.can`t.take. all.the.blame I never said religion takes "all" the blame. Takes most of it though. Brainwashed yet? PS And what's with all the periods? Is that how your "God" wants to you post? LOL

Hi Dino, I don't think your attempt has been that successful! Here's what you said: "A part of the spiritual leadership of the Muslim (Arab) world has a big problem with its interpretation of human sexuality in general and especially so when it comes to the role of women as well as sexual minorities (gays, lesbians etc..)". I can repeat what you said and simply replace the words "Muslim" with "Christian" and "Arab" with "European". Will that make it any less valid? But do you see the injustice that will be done to many fair-minded Europeans? With the 2nd try you made it less stereotypical by starting with "A part of the ...", but my point is that what you are saying can apply to any group of people and not just Muslims. Westerners pride themselves on being scientifc, logical, anti-hate, pro-love, etc, etc. Let's enforce that side of the dialogue. We're all people with unique personalities. PS: I do enjoy most of your writings on the Haaretz forms.

The Quran doesn't talk about gays and lesbians directly. Islam's "rules" were commanded to Muslims by the word of God (the Quran) and through the messenger (Mohammad). It is actually believed that the punishment in Islam for Gays is death!! Sounds extreme, nonetheless it's true. Having said that, there are many Gays and Lesbians that live among us in the Arab and Muslim world today and although they do get the occasional looks and frowns they are not punished in any way (by law or otherwise). Laws in Arab countries mostly do sentence Gay people to prison (not death)...IF THEY GET CAUGHT!!! So, an Arabic gay guy/lesbian has to perform some PDA (Public Display of Affection) for him/her to MAYBE get caught and MAYBE go to jail!

the problem is that most of arab women cannot stop reading the Quran, if they they will be simply executed.... do you see my point?

to have even two taliban movements: radical muslems and orthodox jews, very encouraging :)a true democracy indeed!

Ignorant lying haters. Needless to say the Greeens are falling over themselves for the Arab vote

Yes & judging from some of the OZ witches posting on Ha'Aretz the AGM of the Australian Lesbian Jew Haters Society is held in the Sydney Opera House with recorded Highlights in an overflow hall nearby!!

Ladies loving each other; harldly sounds like a problem to me. In a world full of violence and strife, two people loving each other seems much more like a solution than it does a problem. We already know that the Torah is mute on the subject. Nobody has ever been able to shown me a passage in the New Testament that disparaged lesbianism. What, if anything, does the Quran say on this matter. Who out there knows?

Is there anything that this conference doesn't condemn? That's really all they do. It's like they have a little string in their back. You pull it and they start condemning. They are a bunch of little wind up Imams. "Fatwa, fatwa, fatwa,...." - "Jihad, jihad, jihad...."

in a telephone booth :)

Paul, are you the owner of a condom factory in Tel Aviv...?? Or just having your shares there...??

...in Australia.:)

Okay, let me try: A part of the spiritual leadership of the Muslim (Arab) world has a big problem with its inter- pretation of human sexuality in general and especially so when it comes to the role of women as well as sexual minorities (gays, lesbians etc..). Sounds better to you...?? But I am afraid, it doesn't change my point a bit, namely that you still do have a problem deep in your society when it comes to the facts stated above. And together with your other big problem (the topic of violence), you should rather start confronting your spiritual and political leaders today than tomorrow....

That's the difference. And they are what they are they are not going to become "straight" to please anybody.

DINO OVERSEXED IN THE WEST BUT DO NOT OVERPRODUCING CHILDREN !!! MUSLIMS " UNDERSEXED" BUT ARE FLOODING THE WORLD WITH CHILDREN!! ITS TIME ISLAM WAS FACED AS A DANGER TO THE WHOLE WORLDS FUTURE IN EVERY WAY. BILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE POLLUTING THE ATMOSPHERE AND USING UP ITS RESOURCES AT AN ALARMING RATE !!

Realistic, thanks for the sardonic, tongue-in-cheek treatment of the narrow-mindedness that "religionists", in general, and Islamists, in particular, are unable to grow out of. What they seem unable to grasp is the simple "Live and let live" concept. BTW, I was happy once, but I've never been gay.

The.biggest.mass.murders.of.last.century.Stalin.Lenin.Hitler.Pol.Pot.were.athiests.humanity.is.sinful.religion.can't.take.all.the.blame

No pun intended.

What does orthodox objection to the gay parade have to do with this article? Its to say--Look the Jews are anti-gay too. What does the condemnation of Al littihad (a communist paper) have to do wit the article? Its to say--Look not all arabs are bad. Haaretz should give us the facts and save the editorials for the editorial page. I'm a big boy and can draw my own conclusions from news stories.

"The Muslim (Arab) world has a problem with Sex....." Hi Dino, I'm really surprized to see you make such a broad statement using such a broad brush! How can anyone make such a sweeping conclusion about such a large group of people? Any reasonable person knows that you can't make the same statement about a family of 5 people let alone the whole Arab (300 million - not all Muslims!) or Muslim (1.2 Billion! Different cultural & ethnical backgrounds!) world. Do you and YOUR OWN brother, sister, parents have the same attitude about sex? I doubt it! Every human being develops their own attitudes based on many factors. Religion is one of many factors, and that's why you'll find Christian, Jewish and Muslim hookers, pedophiles, peeping toms, and so on. Please AVOID, and discourage others from, making such sweeping statements about any group of people! FYI: I'm a male, Muslim, Arab, Israeli, Christian School graduate, US educated & lived half of my life in the USA!

I'm a Muslim, although it is forbidden in Islam to tolerate homosexuals, and although I don't like the whole idea of gays and lesbians much, but I do believe on some level that let people be what they will. But what the hell does the Quran has to do with anything?!?! It's like you just found an excuse, no matter how remotely unrelated it is, to dis it!! So women found the Quran ignorant so they became Lesbians?!?! Please give me the chain of mental logic that leads from ignorant Quran to Lesbian!! If some Muslim women find the Quran ignorant they can just stop reading and following it...as many already do. Not following something does not necessarily mean doing the opposite of what that thing tells you to do!

"Nowhere else in the Middle East could this conference have happened. Israel is the only country open enough and sure enough of itself to not only allow but to take very little notice of such realities." Yeh, sure! That's why the Gay parade was cancelled recently in Jerusalem, and why religious Jewish women are forced to sit at the end of the Bus. Jamine, the world is not that black & white. I don't know where you live, but you obviously know nothing about Haifa!

"Perhaps the Palestinian women became lesbians after becoming increasingly isolated by the ignorance of the Qu`ran." Obviously you are talking out of ignorance. When it comes to Islam, SEX within the marriage is more liberal than the other 2 monoatheist religions. Except for sodomy, every sexual practice is allowed between a Muslim man and his wife. None of those silly restrictions that YOU must've heard about in another religion where sex maust be practiced from behind a separating sheet! So please don't make this a strictly religious and a strictly Islamic issue. Gay & Lesbian movements are still not acceptable in many Western (Christian & Jewish) societies. Sure people have a choice to be what they wish to be, but the rest of the people have the right to accept or reject associating with them. That's what free choice is all about!

I agree with every word you said, and I couldn't have put it any better or clearer! To all the other hypocrits, men and women, on this forum I ask one question: What would YOU say to your daughter if she told YOU that she is a lesbian? Be honest with yourselves!!! And if you for the sake of argument state that you'll accept her decision, I like to say that may YOUR God give you that opportunity.

AND ALL THE BIG MOUTHS FOR RIGHTS !! SO LONG AS JEWS DONT GET ANY RIGHTS AND DONT FORGET BALLISTIC THE CHASMPION DOUBLE THINK

Nowhere else in the Middle East could this conference have happened. Israel is the only country open enough and sure enough of itself to not only allow but to take very little notice of such realities.

No doubt, the sexual revolution has not yet reached big parts of the Muslim, and especially the Arab world. But I am afraid, we "Westerners" are definitely not the ones who have any justification to moralize when it comes to this issue. Because with our totally "oversexed" world, we are not really giving a good example to the Arabs, what an open, free society can bring on advantages. The gay and lesbian question may not be directly related to this, but they are the ones who are paying the first price for the incapability by big parts of the Arab world to react in a reasonable way when it comes to questions of mankind and sexuality.

...lesbians after becoming increasingly isolated by the ignorance of the Qu'ran.

The Israel hating politically correct left will continue their deafenning silence as they do with womens rights in most of the Arab world and elsewhere. Honour killing-all quiet Clitoridectomy with potential life threatening complications at the time or when giving birth-all quiet on the "Liberation front"

While Islam is the whipping boy for homophobia, let's ask the Christian conservatives about VP Cheney's lesbian daughter, Mary? I don't think the responses will be flattering.

As if this is a Muslim or even religious problem. Homosexuality has been the unfair target of numerous movements, faiths, governments, and societies for many years. It is not something at all unique to Islam or Muslims, and it was a crime in the very astute United States (i.e. sodomy) until very very recently. I dare you all on this site to condemn bigotry against homosexuality but not let your own bigotry color your condemnation.

You are so right, i agree with every word, good for you ! here in Israel we are bombarded with these religious nuts and their so called morals, check out the Shas party here if you need an example of religious bigotry and hatred!

Good for the palestinan sisters, i hope your confernece goes ahead and you do not give in to religious biggots. You have the right to democracy and freedom as any other group, well done :-)

The Southern Islamic Movement and the Orthodox Jewish groups should be spending their effort campaigning against violence between Jews and Arabs. The only thing these 2 groups agree on and work together at combating has to do with something about sex, which should tell us something about their true vocation. They should go jump in the Dead Sea.

First of all, people have a right to be whatever they want to be, be it in a profession or in their sexual orientation. That having been said, I think you folks missed the more serious implication in the article regarding the lesbian conference to be held in Haifa. Why are the Islamic members of the Knesset engaged in this discussion at all? They are once again overstepping their positions. And why are such intolerant asses in the Knesset at all? And by the way, nothing is a more deviant cancer in our society than a suicide bomber killing and injuring those of another faith--something these Arab members of our governing body often support, tacitly or not.

in Palestine, if we are to learn and become a respectable country, all humans should be given their full human rights including self-expression and the right to privacy, away from the harassment of the so-called Islamic leaders bunch. This man and the whole HAMAS lot should be locked up in a mosque, where he is free to bash anyone.

This is the crowning achievement in the recessiveness of religion. Islamists must persecute innocent Lesbians because they happen to feel attraction to other girls instead of men. It is despicable. It makes me sick. I want to vomit. Until this recessive gene in religion is purged from our thoughts, we will never be able to evolve as a species.

The curse of religion (and it doesn't matter what religion it is) supposedly teaches morals. This is what religion turns people into: warmongers/killers (countless wars throughout history due to religion, including current one in Iraq) pedophiles (eg Catholic priests) con artists and fraudsters (eg Benny Hawn, Jim Baaker and all the other televangelists) prejudiced and intolerant of those not sharing their personal beliefs racists (Darfur is a good example) homophobics exclusioners self-righteous pompous asses judgers of other people brainwashed robots cultists If you have good parents, learn morals from them, not from religion. Religion teaches immorality in every way, shape and form. My list above says it all. Religion is the curse of humanity.

It has to be held in gaza cause imagine that conference in Ramallah. All the people are getting more deluisional day by day.They recently in ¨palestine¨ banned a book for reasons only that minister knows. Said that, imagine a palestinian lesbian confernce in gaza(????)maybe in another dimension, jajaja and why the f·$%%/ it has ti be held in england, are you willing to give them a part of england to the pals for their state?

Palestinians are not Israel's. Choose different city like London, California....etc

Islam must stand up against this travesty of lesbian women. Because if Arab women are allowed to express themselves, then they would want to work, to drive, and to lead lives without the abusiveness of the Male Muslim population! Last I checked, being gay wasn't a crime or a travesty...in normal countries anyway. It could be bad for non-Muslims. Maybe in the future, the only way a Muslim man could have a woman is by martyring himself for the 72 virgins...unless they are lesbian too now.