In Germany, the burden of the past lies heavy

As Stein suggested, I went to Germany. I grew up in a family that prized culture and I remember my father listening reverently to Brahms and Bach. My favorite writers were Mann and Hesse. Much to my disappointment, I came to feel that Germans will never ever forgive the Jews for being victims, and thereby forcing Germans to feel guilty. True, the Germans are hyper-sensitive about the persecution of the Juden, but this is mainly because they don't want to be accused of harboring those feelings again. Their guilt is not because they think highly of the Jews, but more because they so highly of the Germans; it is not "how could we have done this to THEM," it is "how could WE have done this to them." Like the rest of Europe, the Germans believe that the Jews are victimizing them with war guilt.

Thanks for your kind wishes, and Shana Tova to you as well. The situation is such, that you have to keep your TWO eyes wide open. Yesterday after prayers our Lubbavitch rebbe Zalman Gurevitch has been stabbed on his way home in the centre of town, fortunately his days are not in danger …

Shana Tova, have a good year and keep an eye on your pesky neighbours,

Ok ok, in berlin, neonazis in regional parlament. But you're just not accurate with your descriptions, thats all I wanted to say. Neonazis (you are probably referring to the NPD ) are not in regional parliaments of western germany. they WERE there but they ARE not there. You are right in stating that there are many neonazis in G. and one should be ashamed of this fact. But you cannot expect your posts to be meet with aggreement if your telling false things.

Living in a world of self-delusion denying very established facts. Only 2 decades after the gates of Auschwitz were closed and a democratic system has been imposed on the Germans in the West (often against their will, those in the East continued willingly to serve under a dictatorship), neo-Nazis made it into many regional parliaments like in Bavaria, Hessen, Baden Württemberg, Bremen and so on. Today they are sitting in Saxony and even in the country of Chancellor Merkel. But you can find them in regional parliaments of your city as well. Last week you had the possibility to watch one of the usual neo-Nazi rallies in your town, with the police as usual protecting the neo-Nazis and beating up the protesters. As expected, not a single German poster appeared here ready to admit anything, nothing but lame excuses like those heard already at the Nuremburg trials.

When the Flick affair sent shock waves through Germany, it became finally known how the political system in Germany is really functioning. Illicit funding had led not only to corporate bribery but to official influence of an industrial group over political decisions, even on formations of governments. For years, the Flicks were sending money to all parties in parliament. Of course it was well known that Friedrich Flick was sentenced in Nuremburg over his support for the Nazi movement and the exploitation of slave labour from concentration camps. Involved was also the very popular Chancellor Kohl. Kohl, who had conducted US President Reagan on a cemetery with SS men and who had invented the grace of late birth (enabling Germans to break away from burdens of history) is often reported to have been pushed into office by the Flicks who wanted a revisionism of German history. When asked about the money, Kohl always pretended to have a memory blackout and he could go away with that.

I did never see any memorial honoring in particular war criminals like SS-soldiers. but it's legitimate to honor soldiers who died in illegitimate wars, so memorials for wehrmacht troops are legitimate, as well.after all, participation in WWII was compulsory in Germany. You are in no position to say that every one of those soldiers went to war voluntarily

at any time when jews were persecuted in history, at the beginning there was a conspiracy theory. polluting the wells, sacrifizing christian children, etc. it's curious to see that you actually didn't learn from that.

I wonder if those things you say are true. I never read about them in any newspaper. Of course, newspaper companies are infested by nazis, and only you know better. But at least I know about two things you mentioned, that they are not true: -During the Kosovo campaign, German warplanes only hit air-defense units of the Serbian army. There is not an single hint, that civilians were injured during this attacks. - there are no neonazi groups that have mandates in regional parlaments in W-Germany. It seems you're mixing facts (bitburg, busher) with fiction.

" Knowing only to well about the daily desecrations of Jewish graves" We are now nearly 200 days into the year 2007. Where, please, can I find a list of the nearly 200 desecrations of Jewish graves in Germany? A rhetoric question, of course. Your post shows very clearly that your slobbering hate includes EVEN JEWS who are not as convinced German-haters as yourself. YOU are a 'selectional anti-semite'

It took 500 years for Jews to live in Spain after the Inquisition, it may take longer to make peace with Germans. Their incredible cruelty and killing skills were never questioned by the entire population, who supported it all and took part in it. Was there ever a book by a German, saying yes, I was ther, Idid it and I apologise?

What is your point? Have a happy Rosh Hashana!

The degree of self-deception or of intended deception by German posters on this forum is really amusing. When Bubis, who was a well-known leader of the Jewish community in Germany and defended Germany abroad with great naivety, was summing up his life, he told publicly that everything he did in Germany, especially his desire to establish a Jewish community there, had been wrong and in vain, because nothing had really changed in this country. He was one of the best-hated persons in Germany and received hundreds of hate mails every week. Knowing only to well about the daily desecrations of Jewish graves (the grave of his predecessor was even blown up), he wanted to be buried not on German soil but in Israel.

Hallo Axel,it is very difficult to discuss with some people in this forum,sometimes it seems to be impossible.Will there ever be RECONCILIATION??? Yes, like ALL other nations in the world we have some rassists,fanatics and also neo-nazis. But the great Majority is well educated,tolerant and democratic. look at the poor jonathan in frankfurt ,full of Hate,poisened emotions,only superficial knowlegde and logical, always GENERALISATIONS.no answers on specific questions ! Our great jewish German Ignaz Bubis has the right name for people like Jonathan :a spirituell arsonist (more dangerous like a stupid skin-head-neo-nazi) How to reconcile ,thats the Question. My personal solution:spending money for the peace-village in Israel.

I suggest you ask jonathan s why he prefers to live in a country which he despises. Though I doubt that you'll get an answer ...

so you wish to make germany judenrein again, or you only wish to expell this jew?

If you do happen to be blind you are excused. Otherwise, did you never see any german war memorials from WW1 and 2 or memorials from communist east germany or german soldiers graves or church plaques in german churches or......

We still wait for an apology, not to speak of compensation, from war crimes committed during WWII. I have studied in Germany and found most people - with notable exceptions - very friendly and helpful to Chinese visiting students. This is in contrast to Middle Eastern countries, including a few Arab countries and Israel that I visited. Many people treated us clearly with a superiority complex. I was wondering based on what exactly, considering their living conditions?

"You go on about one deranged man, Goldstein" No, I go on about the fact that a mass murderer is glorified by his tombstone epitaph in Israel, and I am asking if any mass murderer in Germany is glorified by his tombstone epitaph. The usual evasion with "one deranged man" does not answer my question.

The terrorists of the leftist RAF wanted to expose the Nazi past of many leading post-war figures in Germany when they were murdering a high representative of the German industry. But their hate towards Jews and their state was even bigger. Leftist groups planned and executed various terrorist attacks together with their Palestinian friends. They could look back at a long German-Palestinian relationship, which dated back to the times when the Mufti of Jerusalem came to Berlin and asked Hitler for gas chambers to solve the problems with the Jews in the ME, too. Best remembered is the work of these young Germans during the abduction of an Air France airliner to Entebbe. The selection of Jewish and non-Jewish passengers was performed with great cruelty by two Germans. They were among the first to be killed by the Israeli commando during operation Jonathan.

When the German chancellor conducted US president Reagan on a cemetery to bow in front of graves of SS hangmen, this was not accidentally. After remaining silent about former Nazi figures in highest positions in post-war Germany, Germans wanted to get rid of the burden of the past. A debate of historians was initiated with the aim to rewrite history, so that a well known university professor could teach its students at a leftist Berlin university that the responsibility for Auschwitz rested with Stalin. The main monument in Berlin for the victims of fascism was desecrated into a monument for all victims of war, so that the Germans could be included. How wunderbar! Like their Austrian friends, Germans could considering themselves now to be the first victims of Hitler fascism. It is as easy as this to get a good conscience. To ease the burden more, it is now even possible to compare the Jewish State with a Nazi state, completing the relativization of German history.

There is a historical burden for Germans. Especially to the younger generations. I personally know people that have an enormous feeling of shame for the holocaust. This can go even as far as to despise and hate everything German (also themsleves) or to hide behind Israel bashing (that one can also read here on the forum). Instead of being ashamed for a crime one did not commit, I personally think one should rather be ashamed that there still is antisemitism and Nazism in Germany. Furthermore, with the holocaust comes responsibility. This is the burden, a German should carry. Responsibility to avoid any second shoa/genocide. Unfortunately this is where the german state fails miserably (see e.g. Darfur).

While this cannot compensate for the crimes committed by our grandfathers, it is still the greatest restitution payment in history. Many other payments were made to our friends, the Western and Eastern Europeans, the Roma, slave laborers and so on. The new Germany is a light upon the nations of how to deal with past crimes. In my experience, this is also widely seen by our friends all over the world as such, especially in Asia, Israel and Western Europa. Last, but not least, Jews from Israel and Russia immigrate in significant numbers to Germany - a sign of great and hard earned trust. I agree though with Jonathan S that nothing is perfect in Germany, and with his and all other people's help we can do even better. We cannot stop this important work.

You go on about one deranged man, Goldstein, when your pple commited atrocities by the millions. I saw them torture, kill, loot, grab etc. Few payed for it, they still kept the loot and never apologised. They are only sorry it did not last longer. They followed a deranged little psychopath into disaster for all Europe till the bitter end. How can any Jew live there and be proud to wave a German flag. You do go on about reparations- I never claimed any myself

be carefull brothers and sisters-does the leopard change its spots? no ! the leopard is still the leopard. of course there are nice germans always have been always will be-but then there are the militeristic germans-they always follow orders no matter how repugnent they themselves might find them to be.if they ever get another strong leader that decides on world conquest or in putting an end to being threatened by the muslims-they would follow that one -again-to the end.

you always refuse to answer a simple question: Why does a Germany-hating Jew like you with his continuous predictions of neo-nazism rising from a constant nazi-sentiment in Germany insist on living in this hated country? Assuming that I, as usual, will not get an answer, my best guess is: You are living comfortably from German welfare, so why should you move to Israel?

Anna Rosmus published her controversial book in 1983. She emigrated to the USA in 1994. Wow! She could stand eleven years of threats and hostility before going away. Or, perhaps, she moved to the USA simply for professional reasons?

is whether a war criminal, or common murderer, is allowed to be eulogized on his gravestone like the mass murderer Baruch Goldstein is eulogized in Israel: "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel."

Anna Rosmus was a young student when she decided to get involved with the Nazi past of her beautiful Bavarian town of Passau. As usual, she was presented to the outside as an example of the new and better Germany. Very soon, she discovered that many prominent citizens of this beautiful place had a dark brown past. A famous doctor for instance had performed more than 500 illegal abortions on slave workers without anaesthesia and never stood trial. Very soon she got hate mails and death threats. She was beaten in the streets and attacked with a knife. When her children were attacked, too, it was too much for that courageous German woman, who was only after the truth her fellow citizens wanted to hide. She emigrated to the US. Her example shows what happens to the few uprights Germans who want to shoulder the burden of history.

If there is such thing as a burden of history, one would expect a little bit more caution from Germany regarding poisonous gas. But quite the contrary is true. The company who produced the infamous Zyklon B has been active for six decades in post-war Germany providing old Nazis with big profits. But a highlight occurred during the first Gulf war when the whole of Israel was sitting in sealed rooms with gas masks on. A UN report indicated that Germany made out of Iraq under Saddam the country with the biggest poisonous gas arsenal in the ME. When the first SCUDS hit Israel, the German FM rushed to Israel, took out his checkbook and bought Israeli silence over the fact that is was German technology that extended the range of the missiles so that the German gas could reach Israel. The result was the delivery of the subs. Israel and the US had forced Germany to deliver, otherwise German products would have been boycotted in the US. This is behind the generous delivery of subs by Germany.

If there would, Germany would not have refused to recall its scientists working under Nasser on missiles, planes and WMD to throw the Jews into the sea (the Mossad had to do it with parcels packed with explosives); never could neo-Nazis made it into the (West) German parliaments only two decades after Auschwitz; Germany would never have delivered a giant factory for the production of poisonous gas to Libya at Rabta when this country looked to annihilate Israel; Germany would never delivered poisonous gas to Saddam together with the missile technology to reach Israel; Germany would never collaborated with the nuclear programme of the mullahs in Iran after these declared to plan a new Holocaust. It would be interesting to see if there is at least one German poster, who would be ashamed by these facts, let alone the neo-Nazi incidents, instead of the usual lame excuses and distortions by the German Israel bashers on this forum.

Arafat used to condemn in the evening the terrorist actions he had ordered in the morning. The truth is that neo-Nazi violence in all of Germany is highly on the rise and that the condemning of it has shown no results at all, quite to the contrary. It is clear, that the good Germans do not want to be considered to be xenophobic. However after a few beers and in a group (never individually) things might change dramatically. By the way, in a BBC poll, when asked which country they consider the most dangerous one on earth, more than 75% of Germans choose the Jewish State for the first place, on of the smallest countries on our planet and a great democracy. Would the result have been different if the question would have been: which country of the world do you wish to disappear the most? Would the disappearance of Israel not be very psychedelic for the German psyche?

Sorry, did not know what deception means, but seems to me that the one who uses deception is not me but someone else. Deception is all about twisting facts. Think about that! Besides, I can agree with you about Neo-Nazis in germany. Not Pretzien but rather Muegeln. But to anounce a German-world-domination-conspiracy is far to much!

Not wanting to waste my time in answering to the usual propaganda of the Jew who spits hatred from his Frankfurt home - probably because he makes a good living from German welfare -, just as a footnote to those with a professional interest in this topic: Germany deployed the Tornado ECR variant during the Balkans conflict. Experts know it is not used for ground attack, others may spend a minute or two to google for "tornado ecr"

The german Tornados were ECR-Tornados. This jets are used against enemy anti-aircraft installations. There were no bombers applied by Germany. Tell me, were you against the NATO (not German alone) action against Milosevic's regime in Kosovo? Why?

Did you ever see any leading German politician, any German newspaper, any relevant German personality or institution NOT condemning this kind of atrocity? This counts and stands for post-war Germany.

During WW2, German fighter planes attacked the Palestinian city of Haifa, its main port, oil refinary facilities, and other residential areas. The grandparent of a relative was killed from a bomb that was dropped by the German pilot and managed to enter his barbershop. Many Palestinians are also standing in line to seek compensation from Germany. If Germany really wants to reach closure with its past, then I suggest the following: (1) Be pro-active in seeking real victims that might not know how to approach Germany. (2) Pull its soldiers from all non-German soils. (3) Outlaw the export of all German weapons (see Mahona@10) (4) Concentrate on humanitarian aid to countries and people who suffered from German actions. (5) Declare its neutrality and get as far away as possible from Bush & other evil American presidents!

German newspapers reported that Tornados of the German Luftwaffe were among the first to bomb former Yugoslavia, in over 450 sorties. The German parliament discussed the use of special heavy bombs. Apparently you are not ashamed that Germany attacked a country for the third time in one century, without any hostile action from Yugoslavia. It was a clear breach of the German constitution which forbids wars of aggression. Germany had no UN mandate to bomb innocent civilians, but the pacifistic Green party supported this aggression. After the horrible crimes the German Wehrmacht perpetrated on Yugoslavian soil, one would have expected that the burden of the past would prevent this to happen again. Concerning Fischer, he used to hate the US and Israel when he wore sneakers and jeans. His attitudes changed when he discovered that he could wear tailored suits when he would be smooching with the Jews and the US.

Again untruths in there. I will rest case after this - You are politically misinformed and uneducated and not worthy of an reponse.

With what are you going to come next - Neo-Nazis in Frankfurt an der Oder? I think you will have a much esier time finding skinsheads and neo nazis in the USA or Russia. Dude - get a life - blowing up these isolated incidents of derranged lunatics and trying to imply that the thrid Reich will rise again... a bit far fetched. Israelis are also not called anti Arab because some lunatics scream anti Arab slogans and say incitefull things.

The pre 1991 guy - he said something stupid and had to step down. Proves to you that Party discipline was enforced. Refusal of Entry - Israels prerogative. Election on Independent list - again, proves to you that Green Party discipline was enforced. Also see that some action of the Greens are pro Israel: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,382362,00.html http://www.gruene.de/cms/presse/dok/153/153571.solidaritaet_mit_den_berliner_buendnis_g.htm Germany Israels enemy? You got to be kidding. Need I remind you where Israels submarine fleet comes from? People - you have to come with better things. Especially the German guy who ought to have more insight unless you are living in a bubble in Frankfurt.

Pretzien is a small town not far from Magdeburg in central Germany. It became famous last year, when a diary of Anne Frank was tossed publicly into the flames and people shouted that it was full of lies and deception. It would still not have made it to the headlines, if not for the mayor who attended together with about 100 righteous citizens and who remained silent. One year after the event, the perpetrators are still free and a majority of citizens favours to put things to rest. They feel intimidated and disturbed and do not want to be reminded. Their main excuse is that it is all about nothing but paper. This is the typical way how people in this country made their peace with the past. It was the same sort of peace of mind after 1945 and again after 1989. The burden of the past lies heavily? Today Jewish diaries are burned, what or who will be burned tomorrow?

Ther is definitely a shared sense of common cultural stock - especially here in New York: an instant connection. I cannot speak for other Germans abroad, but it is not surprising: often raised in staunchly traditional (German Jewish) immigrant families, those German values were passed on to the second and third generations. Thinking of German vs. Jews instead of Germans as part of Jewish culture: for me it's an increasing anachronism and less and less justifiable as a new, exciting Jewish German amalgam reemerges in Berlin and elsewhere. I can truly only warmly recommend that those Jews who are ambiguous - why not come to Germany and see for yourself. It will also be a journey to your own cultural unconscious - hopefully a rewarding one, whether you will like it or not (a note to 'Jonathan S' : get a life)

Joschka Fischer was member of the greens party. Didn't know that he was anti-israel. Furthermore, get your facts straight. The case for compensation was not based on the fact that german jets bombed the village, because they never did. It was based on the fact that german soldiers served on board of the AWACS planes and by this supported the bombing which was carried out by other NATO-members. Was a lawsuit filed against the countries the bombing planes actually came from? NO, it was not!

I have for a long time had an intuition (as non-jewish German) - in fact I grew up with it - that there is a shared sense of historical responsibility to the Germans and Jews and Israelis for that purpose. A responsibility towards the peaceful future of ethnicities, religions, cultures, nations being able to live in a common world. Being with young Israelis and Jews is not embarrassing for young, educated and worldy Germans. It is a positive, exciting challenge - and while one might talk about the holocaust - and self-ironically so even (why not?!) - Jews and Germans of course don't question of whose fault the holocaust was - they both agree. And here is a thought that I find provoking and also forward looking: think that the Jews killed were Germans - Hitler killed his own people. If he had killed catholics, we owuld think of Germans vs. Catholics. But that distinction is entirely artificial. One thing I frequently realise with my Jewish friends: there is (last paragraph to follow...)

Chancellor Adenauer, who had many well-known Nazis in his government like the commentator of the Nuremburg laws, wanted to travel to the US but could only do so, after agreeing under US pressure to strike a deal with the Jews for the Wiedergutwerdung of the German people. Ben Gurion at that time said that he would be ready to strike a deal with the devil to secure the future the Jewish State. Concerning reparations, Germany always refused to pay: for instance for the German genocide in Africa against the Hereros during 1904-07, for the unnumbered Oradours and Lidices German troops committed all over Europe. Germany was ever afraid, that the whole of Europe and even parts of Northern Africa would ask for money. Just in case, should Germans continue to sue Poland for territory, the city of Warsaw alone has prepared a bill about 40 billion Euros for Germany, to show the proportions at stake.

The most prominent Israel-hater of the Green party lives in Berlin and gets the Muslim vote there, to be probably the only Green politician to be directly elected into the German parliament and not through the party list. He had never to step down for his inflammatory anti-Israel positions. When the Green party wanted to teach the Jews of Israel one of their many lessons, especially after it became known that Germany provided Saddam Hussein massively with poisonous gas, their delegation was held at Ben Gurion, refused entry and sent back to Germany with the next plane available. This was the right method to deal with them. After Auschwitz, Jews should at least know very well who their enemies are.

Some time before the 1st Gulf War a prominent representative of the Green Party in Germany stated that should the Greater Tel Aviv Area be attacked massively by WMD, the West should abstain from any military response. He said that "it would not be justified to endanger World Peace because of 1.2 million Israelis (or did he say Jews? I can't say for sure). Of course, he had to step down, but he was saying loud what others in this party thought, albeit not necessary the majority.

Green Party Anti Israel - totally unfounded statement. they might be against some of Israel's policies (and they are not alone), but they are not anti-Israel. No mainstream German political party can risk that. Btw - what does anti Israel mean - not agreeing to everything Israel does blindly? Does not agreeing witha friend make you enemys... I think not! Bombings - even if this were true and in context, which I doubt, is Germany behvaing any differently than the USA, England, Russia, Israel when it comes to compensation? Confiscated by East Germany - total lie. Assets expropriated in the course of the East German Land Reform have not been returned. "Large Proportion" this is vague, oversimplified, and does not say anything. Wiedergutmachung - did not start at the insistence of the US. Also the American controlled "Claims Conference" is hoarding millions while Shoa survivors in Israel are living in abject poverty. Get your facts straight!

When the German army bombed and killed innocent civilians in former Yugoslavia a few years ago, even the German Green party, which is calling itself to be pacifistic (and is violently anti-Israel), supported the bombings. Two years ago, when the victims and their descendants tried to get compensations from Germany, German courts refused and they had to return home empty-handed to their destroyed villages. Germany has always and will ever refuse compensations out of fear that from many countries similar claims would follow. If not for the US, Jews would never see anything that had been stolen by Germans. By the way, even after 60 years, a large portion of Jewish property has still not been returned, whereas only 15 years after the fall of the Wall, everything that was confiscated in former Eastern Germany had been returned to former German owners.