IDF: Three children killed in Gaza Tuesday were just playing tag

Palestinial or Jewesh children killed...the masters of earn always big money.

How can anyone so twist the facts ?? It's very sad. But NOT to be compared to what the Palestinians do daily. They target Israeli children. Then they boast about it, as they did when they fired rockets at Sderot on the first day of school, and then brazenly laughed that, "it was a present for the Sderot children on their first day of school". That's barbaric !! In war civilians are sometimes hit, by accident, as these children were, but to target children as the Palestinians do, is evil. You miss the whole point here, with all your PC talk. Israel was firing at missle launchers, NOT children, the children were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I agree with those who question the actions of the children's parents. Where were they? I would NOT allow my children to play around MISSILE sites. That's irresponsible to say the least. If the Palestinians had NOT been firing MISSLES at Israel, there would have been NO TRAGEDY !!

to extract the information from you??? You might think of taking some Ex-Lax, that might loosen you up a bit...For reminders, here's what I asked for... "#213 - Linthwaite Name: * BEN JABO City: USA State: Cite your sources...!!!! It`s quite evident we don`t read the same papers, name yours and suppy the necessary links... As usual, you post without links or sources, just allegations... West Bank was problem before it was occupied... Occupation was the result, not the cause

He sums up his fantasy by stating "You can`t have commerce while under seige" while demanding Israel just do that. He supports the 60 year long war against Israel's existence, makes no demand that the AL end the war it unconditionally declared, doesn't call for Hamas and Fatah to change their founding documents to recognize Israel, but says Israel should be giving Arabs money, power, food and other types of commerce. Yes, it's Ibrahim that must "get real"

"law enforcement" V "occupation". You seem confused about domestic law enforcement and a military occupation. You're rejecting that the Pals and the AL are in a declared SoW against Israel's existence. As for "occupation", yes, Israel's IDF has a military occupation of portions of the disputed territories. You reject the distinction between "disputed" land and "occupied" as per the GC. "ethnic cleansing". You reject the fact that the Arab population has grown almost an order of magnitude under "occupation", while they cleansed Jews once and demand it again. "the IDF shoots at anyone" rejects the many news reports about people arrested w/o being shot. "they were in..." doesn't mean "indiscriminate, it means caught in crossfire; while you reject that Kassams are intentionally and indiscriminately fired at civilians. "Some things never change". You're right, and rejectionist mindsets in antisemites is one of them.

Oh, pardonnez-moi, je vous en prie, American. You obviously misread my post. I am asking why Israel is permitted to exist on the basis of a religious claim which purports that the deity of the Hebrews gave them a piece of land. But the only record of said "deed" is to be found only in the religious writings of Judaism. I find it incredible that a claim to any property should be valid based on some invisible deed given by an invisible friend. And none of the aliyahniks can point to a stone or a sandlot in Palestine and say that an ancestor who was forced to leave in AD134 once owned that property and it is therefore his, even though said person was born in Brooklyn and has no papers to prove his claim. Meanwhile, refugees are rotting in enforced exile just outside their now usurped homes. No hope of returning, their villages, their history destroyed. Why is this allowed? As to Osama, all that we have in common is that we are mortal.

Hala, ?Why has the Biblical claim to an entire area in the Middle East been accepted by all secular states of the West?? They haven?t. The UN doesn?t allocate land based on any god.. For the argument that God gave Israel any land would require that everyone acknowledge your god, and that your god is superior to all others. The deed to my property does not have his signature, nor is gods signature required to be valid. Osama Bin Laden believes the same as you. You have at least that much in common. He thinks his god is superior.

As usual your ignorance precedes your intelligence. 1. The Israel paid the families 13 mil 20 years later in 1987. That really was timely for the families wasn?t it? 2. In reality Israel deducted the 13 Mil from the 3 billion in US aide received that year, therefore paid nothing. In effect, American taxpayers paid 3. The USS liberty was in international waters. It was not spying. All countries monitor radio traffic and it is common practice to loiter outside the 12 mile limit, in the air or at sea. Israel does this also. 4. The Liberty was clearly marked by name and flag. That is how a hostile force would confirm a targets identity prior to opening fire. As for spying, Pollard and Franklin are better examples. The victims of bombings committed by the Jewish terrorists groups, The Stern gang, Haganah, and Irgun, were never compensated.

Maybe you should check "your" facts, in light of the following extract from Haaretz 3/9/07. When you have, maybe you could reflect on your motives. Your motives are crystal clear to me! "The IDF explains that the Palestinians make a practice of sending children to collect the Qassam launchers. However, in this case, the children killed were NOT collecting launchers. The first two were killed while collecting carob fruit and the next three - according to the IDF's own investigation - were playing tag. But even if we accept the IDF's claim that there is a general trend of sending children to collect launchers (which has not been proven), that should have brought about an immediate halt to firing at launcher collectors". PS, where can I see this "film" which clearly shows the children attempting to adjust the launchers? Maybe you should draw the attention of the IDF to it, they, obviously, have not seen it.

Hello. About David, etc. The idea of history was not like that we now have. They concentrate facts in representative characters and the historians underline the intervention of G-d in history. But those are not commandments. Sorry I am in haste. I have to get ready to go and work. Regards

MERHABA! Glad to read that you are more sanguine, compared to the last postings. Maybe clickfool's cheery ditty lifted your black spirits. But let us hope that hate will not go on. Drink a glass of raki, eat some mindi with lots of yogurt, listen to the song Rambi, ramhi and relax. Life will continue, children will sing and play if we all concentrate on peace and good will. One day at a time, one drop in the glass, one coin in the collection basket.

Moreover, clickfool, when I try to find answers to the problem of why God would command the slaughter of children and other innocents, I come up either with solutions like yours, just set aside anything that has not to with "God is love," or rationalizations e.g, since the children were not of the just, they had to die, but they probably were mercifully dispatched with an axe blow to the neck. Thanks, God! And these are good, dutiful Christians. Finally, if all that bloody business is junk, why is it not labelled as such or, even better, put in an appendix? And what about all that polygamy business? Some Mormon sects use that information to justify their multiple wives. O religio!

How do we know what is a lie, propaganda, myth and what is not? People swear on the Bible, the Torah is carried in reverend procession, passages are read in Christian churches. What do you say to a person who believes everything in the Bible as real and gets insulted when anyone questions the tiniest fact? Why has the Biblical claim to an entire area in the Middle East been accepted by all secular states of the West? Why did no one challenge Ben Gurion when he, asked to show the land deed to Israel, held up the Bible? Who is to determine what to believe and what not to believe?

Dear Alice in Wonderland: Good analogy. The Cheshire cat grins. The Palestinians, teeming little scuttlers in a tiny area, are indeed like little mice. The big old cat, armed with enormous paws and slashing claws and ferocious fangs dips into the scurrying chaos every once in a while and kills a few of the rodents. The supporters of the feline cheer, the mice weep, but no one hears their tiny little voices. Brilliant.

Dear KUTW: I condemn all terrorism, and so do all my Arab friends, both Christian and Muslim. Even among the Muslims, there is great conflict, the Sunni want to eliminate the Shia, the Shia still relive the martyrdom of Imam Hussein. I know many Muslims who think that veiled women are very backward and retro, and I agree. The trouble is that the Arabs never had a Renaissance due to the Ottoman occupation. Even countries like Bulgaria, Roumania, Serbia, etc. are still not with the modern times due to the centuries of Ottoman rule. All these nations have a long way to go. The Muslims have only two options in government: secular despotism (Egypt, Syria) or Islamic despotism (Iraq, Saudi Arabia). Instead of constantly bombing them or supporting the corrupt regimes, the West should work on peaceful, cultural means to educate the people. It is hard to teach anyone when you keep beating him on the head. I pray that all people will live in peace, Jews, Muslims, Christians.

Here is the problem: on the one hand, we are told that the Bible is the good book. Then when we read it, we are very puzzled at the blood letting, the adultery, the deceit, the theft, etc. Like king David, he is a saint and a great poet ("...que cantaba el rey David..."--las mananitas), but he was a womanizer and even had Uriah killed for Bathsheba, then his own son raped his sister, then Absalom killed his brothers, etc. So what are we supposed to think? What is true and what is not? If it is a lie that God told Joshua to kill all the Canaanites (they are still around in the New Testament!), then is it not also a lie that God gave Canaan to the Israelites, the passage upon which the claim to Israel is based today? No matter what I read, no one has been able to explain all these contradictions. It would have been best to start at zero back in the early 1900's, when the Jewish population was only about 10%, without any Biblical backing. It is truly difficult to be a Christian!

Since you fail to respond to my queries, it's quite evident you're a total fraud...I dare you to reply, I double dare you..... "LINTHWATE - You`re ducking my question Name: * BEN JABO City: USA State: In your post #213, this string...You made a definite statement, which will follow... I, in turn asked you to supply the source for your information....Enough time has elapsed... Frankly, I`m not holding my breath...You, like most of the pro-Arab posters, frequently make us statements out of thin air...I challenge you, prove me wrong...Furnish the info (which I don`t think existsany where but in your mind) 213 - Linthwaite Name: * BEN JABO City: USA State: Cite your sources...!!!! It`s quite evident we don`t read the same papers, name yours and suppy the necessary links... As usual, you post without links or sources, just allegations... West Bank was problem before it was occupied... Occupation was the result, not the cause

You are delusional. No where near 90%. The various polls that I have read indicted the 40 % range. Most Americans are unaware of the issue, annexation of additional land. Not survival, which is how Israel and many American Jews sell it as. It is AIPAC and associated Jewish organization that bring about the financial support. Not the American public?s understanding or sympathy. In fact, it is the misunderstanding that has allowed this situation. American support for Israel has become shameful for America.

If Jairus really did come to Jesus and ask for help, he had to have said something. An omniscient, omnipotent deity would have known exactly what Jairus had said, so if this deity later verbally inspired three people to write accounts of what Jairus had said, all three accounts would have attributed the exact same words to Jairus. If not, why not? So the fact that all three accounts did not use identical words in reporting what Jairus said to Jesus, what the messengers said to Jairus, what Jesus said to the mourners at Jairus's house, and what Jesus said to the girl when ordering her to arise, we can know that the three accounts can't all be divinely inspired. P.S. The name “Jarius” means “He will awaken,” signaling the fictional nature of the story.

You come out with Arabs and so. I am amazed at the fact that when you criticise terrorist actions committed by Muslims, all the Muslims will feel insulted. This is something I cannot understand. Are all the Muslims terrorists and so they take it for granted that you are referring to all of them? You are adopting the same position

Hello, hala. I do not take it personally and am afraid you are mistaking history, such as it was understood at the time, with commandments. In the historic books of the Bible, the authors try to show how G-d intervenes in history, and that?s it. You know about legends, epics, etc. I know some people take the Bible literally. This is what happens among Evangelical Christians, as far as I know. But the Jews do not take all the Bible says as commandments. I could give you the titles about some books dealing with how the books of the Bible were formed, literary genres and all that stuff. But I am afraid you would not be able to find them. They are some years old and in Spanish (the authors are Spaniards). However, I am sure you can find books on the matter there. It is a fascinating topic.

"Mark said Jairus told Jesus that his daughter was lying at the point of death, and Luke simply said that "she was dying." Matthew, however, had the girl`s father say, "My daughter has just died." It couldn`t possibly be true that the girl was both alive and dead at the time Jairus came to Jesus. She was either dead at the time or she wasn`t" You're being deliberately dense, Hubal. The original source of this miracle story is the account of (John) Mark. You fail to mention that by the time Jesus reached Jairus's house the girl had certainly died: "While he was still speaking, people from the synagogue official's house arrived and said, "Your daughter has died; why trouble the teacher any longer?"" Mark 5:35 Why did you deliberately miss out this later verse, Hubal?

Clickfool, you would be soundly excoriated by the true believers for daring to say that some passages of the Good Book are "clearly junk." There are too many fundamentalists who do not question any of the Bible. I once listened in horror as a televangelist criticized Saul for sparing some of the livestock of the Amalekites after Samuel had ordered the king to slay every living being, as I quoted in a post above. A man of God, this televangelist said nothing about the killing of children and infants. As for the massacre of the innocents under Herod, that is one of the elements of the Jesus story that was put in to coincide with OT accounts, like the slaying of Pharaoh's first born, a trip to Egypt, etc. Cum grano salis.

A good person would be concerned for all people and see all sides of the situation. If your only defense of your one-sided stubborness to see the truth is that you are a "good person" and I "hate" you and that anything that might indict the Israelis is "propaganda," then that tells the whole story.

If you are not familiar with the passages to which I refer, then there is something missing in your Bible. Maybe it is a bowdlerized version. Believe me, the commands to kill are all there. The reason why I cite them is because they are germane to the situation. We are not talking about Aztec human sacrifice or Chinese drowning of girl babies or cannibalism. Given also that the Bible is supposed to be taken literally by some, I find it appalling that such bloody business should be included in the writings of a people who are supposed to be a light unto the nations. And you really have to stop reacting so violently to any reference to achievements of Arabs. Again, this is germane to a discussion where Arabs are constantly attacked as being vermin on the face of the earth. All peoples have their good and bad. Finally, please stop attacking my knowledge. It makes you appear as a kindergartener: "Miss knowitall, Miss knowitall, nyah, nyah." Ugh.

I've included the link, check it out for yourself..Here's the article in it's entirety... "Headline News Thursday, August 30, 2007 by Staff Writer Israel blames Hamas for Palestinian kids' deaths Israel on Thursday laid the blame for the reported deaths of three Palestinian children in an Israeli military strike in Gaza squarely on the shoulders of the Hamas terrorist organization that controls the area. Israeli forces on Thursday morning identified a number of individuals adjusting rocket launchers in a populated area of northern Gaza in apparent preparation for a rocket attack on nearby towns in southern Israel. The army immediately shelled the site and destroyed the launchers. Palestinian sources said three children were also killed. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) immediately released a statement expressing ?sorrow for the cynical use the terror organizations make of the active participation of teenagers in terror attacks.? ?This phenomenon of Hamas paying ten shekels to children in order to retrieve the launchers has become the norm,? reported Army Radio military correspondent Avi Yissacharov. ?The terrorists launch the rockets from afar via remote control and know that if they approach the launchers they will be hit, so they send young children.? Overnight, Israeli forces operating in northern Gaza intercepted a 15-year-old Palestinian boy who had been sent on a suicide bomb mission against Israelis. The boy was carrying two explosive devices http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=13926

Pay particular attention to the LAST TWO paragraphs...IDF apologized, terrorists that launched from civilian areas still haven't... "Please pay attention to the last paragraph, terrorists using civilian areas to launch from... "2 Palestinian children killed in Gaza By IBRAHIM BARZAK Associated Press Writer Article Last Updated: 08/29/2007 10:30:27 AM MDT BEIT HANOUN, Gaza Strip?Two Palestinian children were killed and a third was critically wounded on Wednesday in a blast in northern Gaza, and the Israeli military acknowledged firing at rocket launchers there. The area, which is populated by civilians, is frequently used by Palestinian militants to launch rocket attacks against southern Israel. The dead were identified as Mahmoud Ghazal, 10, and his cousin, Yehiya Ghazal, 12, said Dr. Moaiya Hassanain of the Palestinian Health Ministry. Their 10-year-old cousin, Sara Ghazal, was critically injured, he said. Witnesses said there were rocket launchers in the area. The Israeli military said its forces saw people handling the launchers and opened fire on them. The military said this was not the first time Palestinian militants have employed children in their attacks on Israel. A relative, Wasfi Ghazal, said he heard the sound of an explosion and then children screaming. He held both Israel and the militant rocket squads responsible. "We are victims of the occupation and victims of the misbehavior of some of the fighters who are randomly choosing our area to target Israel," he told The Associated Press

Jesus` disciples referred to him as "Rabbi" or "teacher", and that`s how I view him, a unique glimpse into the mind of God and, certainly, with the ability to perform at least one undoubted miracle (the raising of Jairus`s daughter). The major problem with this story, is quite simple. Mark said Jairus told Jesus that his daughter was lying at the point of death, and Luke simply said that "she was dying." Matthew, however, had the girl's father say, "My daughter has just died." It couldn't possibly be true that the girl was both alive and dead at the time Jairus came to Jesus. She was either dead at the time or she wasn't. Now, even if you accept that the Gospels are written with divine guidance,(and I do not) this alone would offer enough doubt so as to render the story itself as dubious and thus it falls into the very same category that most Old and New Testament narrative does. Myth, legend and propaganda, as you yourself stated quite succinctly.

First things first...Soldiers taken hostage, are they dead or alive???...Lebanon refuses to say...Why should the Israeli's furnish information while they can't get any...You see, it's a two way street.... Clusters, most interesting, Hezbollah fired them into Israel in the first rocket salvos, you neglect to mention that small fact... Aside from that, clusters aren't land mines, they're not mapped as land mines are.... Hezbollah fired their weapons from the midst of civilians, Israel returned fire as it deemed necessary...Those same civilians accepted money for having rocket rooms added to their houses and accepted monthly rental...They knew they were engaged in military activity and were endangering themselves and their children... The sin is on the heads of those that started the war, not those that defended themselves... Yes clusters are vile, both sides used them, however fired the first rockets, more than 4000 aimed at Israeli civilian centers...

Shame on you for being so boring... Shame again, for you cowardice in failing to fulfill your promise to be a Human Shield

Israel occupied the land because the childs parents and relatives insisted on attacking Israel...Again, you're putting the result before the cause...First came the action, then the reaction (occupation)...Go back to the "TIMELINES" and see the sequence of events...You're forgetting what you should have learned...

In your post #213, this string...You made a definite statement, which will follow... I, in turn asked you to supply the source for your information....Enough time has elapsed... Frankly, I'm not holding my breath...You, like most of the pro-Arab posters, frequently make us statements out of thin air...I challenge you, prove me wrong...Furnish the info (which I don't think existsany where but in your mind) 213 - Linthwaite Name: * BEN JABO City: USA State: Cite your sources...!!!! It`s quite evident we don`t read the same papers, name yours and suppy the necessary links... As usual, you post without links or sources, just allegations... West Bank was problem before it was occupied... Occupation was the result, not the cause...

Your concerns for American politics and casualties are most touching.. Though in World War 2, you gladly accepted the fact that American's died in defense of your homeland... You have a lost of questions and no answers... Well, let me tell you for a fact, that cowards, such as yourself, haven't the right to questions the ability of others... When I went to school, we weren't inculcated with hate of our fellow man while in kingergarten, grade school or any other place during our eduction...Contrary to the Arabs teaching their kids hatred while they're being suckled, then in kindergarten , military training in grade school...Our children didn't take up arms until they went into the military... There is no need to progress in my support for the American military, it's always been there... Unlike yourself, I enlisted and then served... You blew hot air and still hide...

A. The incident was filmed and CLEARLY shows the kids attempting to adjust the launchers B. One day earlier a teen was caught trying to sneak into Israel with an explosive belt. c. The PLO runs youth camps and airs T.V. shows that glorify attacking Israelie civilian targets. D. Its my belief you should know the FACTS before you post - this way you wont come off as someone who doesn't know what they are speaking about - and as haveing questionable motives as you do in your posting

You are right about the equipment, I am sorry to say. She has no academic detachment, nor does she understand the concept of objectivity, which I have known before. But the field of "post-colonial criticism" is biased from its very foundation, so I attributed the objectivity-deficiency to that. But not having the intellect and mental sharpness is deadly. Do you happen to be an academic yourself?

Thank you...

Shame you censored my reply to Hubal. Can't quite see why you did, but that's your prerogative. I would have liked him to know how I viewed the Old Testament, Jesus and the Trinity, this being Sunday.

"...but it does not make me a liar." You don't deny the premise of my post. Knowingly repeating a falsehood, is 'a lie'.

mr, let me tell you something, just because i despise your government and their ideoligal stance and people like you doesn't mean ALL americans should die, o.k, there are many americans against morons like you, same as the pals, there is good and bad, hamas good, fatah bad, children are all innocent or naive, regardless children are children, if you have kids, and you turned your back on them for a second and then you turned around only to see them dissapear in someones car, can you honestly blame the child after telling them many times not to talk to strangers ? your a fool. and your off my christmas list.

...but it does not make me a liar.

Yes, lady. I saw the videos, even one produced by the pal TV, and also photos. I analysed the whole thing, which was also discussed here. It was plain the matter was a show to feed you and your friends. Since then on nobody else has mentioned that event, but for some people who are newcomers or missed the topic and are not properly up-dated. You should thank me for informing you so you don?t make fool of yourself, hala, because, in spite of everything and your hate for me, I am a good person and you do not make me angry, no matter how hard you try.

Since you are a knowitall you should know what the Bible consists of: myths, literature, history, etc. No doubt you also know that all the peoples in the world had their struggles. Why do you single the Jews out? You do it in order to defend the the pals, or to put it better, those who want to destroy Israel. As if they had been peaceful all the time and were being peaceful now. It never ceases to amaze me how you use facts of thousands of years ago to criticise certain people and you don?t pay attention to worse facts happening today when the people involved in them are others. And where the commandments come from anyway? You use facts at your convenience. Remember that you have been lecturing us for a long time about how wise the Arabs were that they preserve the knowledge of Greek when the Europeans were absolutely illiterate in the matter. Yet you knew of the existence of European people who knew it and even were brilliant at it before the Arab invasion. In the same way, I have seen you interpret the Bible literally when it suits your interests, which we all know.

Dear Cipora, I sent a post to you yesterday on this thread but it was not put up ? seems to happen a lot nowadays. I pointed out that a week or two ago you had called me a liar for saying that nearly 900 children have been killed since the beginning of the Intifada. Did you by any chance check the B?Tselem website and look at the fatality rates for minors that I sent you? If so, I presume I am going to get an apology. In fact, I would rather you apologise to the Palestinians, not to me, for the slaughter of their children by the IDF. Just in case you haven?t checked the website, I have included its address below. And I will reiterate again the fatality rate. The Israelis have shot dead or killed nearly 900 Palestinians under the age of 18. Many of these were innocent bystanders, or adolescents going about their lives lawfully when their young lives were brutally terminated. The five children, killed in almost similar circumstances, who have lost their lives in the slums of Gaza this week and last, are typical of the callous indifference the IDF shows not just to Palestinians but also their offspring. The IDF murders Palestinian children at the rate of nearly three a week. This fact is one of the major undercurrents that drive this conflict. It has driven it from the opening day of the Intifada, and has the full backing of ordinary Israelis. They support the shoot-to-kill policy of Palestinian children by the IDF. Regards. http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp

"PS.: the birth of Jesus ignited the biggest child-massacre ever!' Funny then, that it should NOT have a single mention in any of the vast works written in that era in the very same region that this unprecedented massacre occurred in then.... isn't it? But what can this possibly mean?! Matthew: "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under" If this statement be true hundreds of innocent babes (the Greek Calendar says fourteen thousand) must have perished, a crime the enormity of which is almost without a parallel in the annals of history. It is strange that Mark, Luke, and John make no mention of this frightful tragedy. Luke's silence is especially significant. It is passing strange that the Roman historians and Rabbinical writers of that age, who wrote of Herod, should be silent regarding it. Josephus devotes nearly forty chapters to the life of Herod. He narrates with much particularity every important event in his life. He detested this monarch and dwells upon his crimes and errors. Yet Josephus knew nothing of this massacre. Tell me some more lies Alice.

"There is no Christian denomination who would refer to the Old Testament as junk or myth or propaganda" I do not belong to any known Christian denomination, Hubal, nor do I believe in the Trinity. Jesus' disciples referred to him as "Rabbi" or "teacher", and that's how I view him, a unique glimpse into the mind of God and, certainly, with the ability to perform at least one undoubted miracle (the raising of Jairus's daughter). But...part of a Divine Trinity, with the Holy Spirit? I have always had the greatest difficulty with that, and could, for example, never see why an omnipresent God would need a Holy Spirit. Jesus certainly was a good Jew, and knew the Old Testament backwards, and probably believed every word, including the Adam and Eve myth. But - sorry - that was his prerogative. May the Lord forgive me, but the mind and the common sense he has given me say differently. Write me off as a pagan, Hubal.

"PS.: the birth of Jesus ignited the biggest child-massacre ever!' Funny then, that it should NOT have a single mention in any of the vast works written in that era in the very same region that this unprecedented massacre occurred in then.... isn't it? But what can this possibly mean?! Matthew: "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under" If this statement be true hundreds of innocent babes (the Greek Calendar says fourteen thousand) must have perished, a crime the enormity of which is almost without a parallel in the annals of history. It is strange that Mark, Luke, and John make no mention of this frightful tragedy. Luke's silence is especially significant. It is passing strange that the Roman historians and Rabbinical writers of that age, who wrote of Herod, should be silent regarding it. Josephus devotes nearly forty chapters to the life of Herod. He narrates with much particularity every important event in his life. He detested this monarch and dwells upon his crimes and errors. Yet Josephus knew nothing of this massacre. Tell me some more lies Alice.

There are people, who sceam, plot and lie everywhere and it confuses logic, truth, the right side of things. Therefore for inst. the IDF /Israel cannot right away, when accused, say "yes, we did it". They need to investigate whether their doings actually caused more damage than they intended to or whether the opponent took advantage of the situation by adding damage to it to look even worse....so that Israel would be world-widely hated more. In the 70s as the Pals highjacked four planes in Europe and had them flown to a Jordanian desert, they arranged all the Jewish passengers to what they considered "strategic spots", so that if Israel sent his commandos, they would actually kill the Jewish people. This "game" the Pals are playing with Israel all the time reminds me of "cat-and-mouse" game.

Hala's comment re the 'commanding the killing of children' is spurious. She refers to isolated examples and then assumes that killing of children is mandated. However I couldn't let your rather smug response go unchallenged. "The good Lord has given us common sense and I believe he expects us to use this. I start from the premise that "God is love" (1 John 4:8)" There is no Christian denomination who would refer to the Old Testament as junk or myth or propaganda, because if it were so then Jesus himself would have to be jettisoned because he extensively quotes it,teaches it and attempts,(or is predestined according to your point of view)to fulfill its myriad of prophesies. If the propaganda and myth attributed to the 'Good Lord' you refer to is to be believed then you will have to accept the Old Testament lock stock and barrel,particularly the Exodus 'myths' which incorporate much of the 'child killing', Hala refers to. It might be far easier to jettison the whole lot, because the 'New Testament' is riddled with even more myth, proaganda,lies and non-science than the Old one.

"We all know that Lebanon and Hiz are adhering to Res 1701 to aT - don`t we CF?" Sure - a bit like Israel.

The OT is teaming with bloody wars, cruelty and inconceivable "orders" to kill and destroy. NO PITY on the enemy! In the matter of fact pity was regarded as a "crime" for which kings like Saul were punished! The Prophets kept reminding the Israelilites to stay firm and not to show "weakness". You see, it was all about "rational survival" and about establishing one's place among the other tribal peoples. You find the very same principals in Machiavelli's "Prince" and in today's market economy: in other words, if you want to get somewhere or become somebody you must "eat" or "destroy" others on your way to "success". Naturally it usually are the weak, who will fall victims for this kind of existential philosophy, Darwinism. Since 3000 years have elapsed from those Biblical times, and all the people in this world still hold on to this same method of surviving in this world, we can conclude that this is human nature. PS.: the birth of Jesus ignited the biggest child-massacre ever!

We all know that Lebanon and Hiz are adhering to Res 1701 to aT - don't we CF?

"Anyone who believes the OT literally has to approve of the killing of children, it is not simply condoned but commanded." The Old Testament is a mishmash of gathered legend, myth, non-science, lies and ancient self-serving propaganda. The good Lord has given us common sense and I believe he expects us to use this. I start from the premise that "God is love" (1 John 4:8) and set to one side everything that is inconsistent with this. Verses urging the slaughter of innocents are clearly junk.

"Human sheilds" (children) are frequently used by the IDF. This, of course, is ok! As for the PA and IDF claiming they were adjusting the launchers. Please tell me, just who, with a brain in their head, would believe ANYTHING the IDF or the illegal, pro-Israeli, PA have to say about Hamas (the legal government)? My belief is that the IDF have "conjoured" a NEW EXCUSE. It used to be "the child had a "suspicious" school-bag, so we put 10 or 20 bullets in her - oops, sorry!" We now have "they were adjusting the launchers". Just why are Palestinians, who are LEGALLY allowed to drive out, occupiers, called "terrorists" while the occupiers, who deliver TERROR on a daily basis, are called VICTIMS? They were VICTIMS, but that was sixty years ago, that does NOT absolved you of your acts of terror today! BTW Children in Europe played an "active role" in fighting the Nazis! Your comparisons are crap!

NO CHILDREEN. HOW I KNOW ? ENOUGH FOR 5. AFTER ONE MONTH WE KILL AGAIN. TIME AFTER TIME. HATE MUST GO ON. SLOWLY :) TOO SLOW. BUT NONSTOP :) ATİLLA KARAGÖZOĞLU

Israelis will not get out of Israel, ever. If the Arabs are planning a new holocaust, as your post suggests, then they will pay an exorbitant price for their acts. Keep that in mind next time you feel like sending me one of your outrageous posts.

"no resolution made by the un has any legal meaning !" Except Resolution 1701 concerning South Lebanon, hey, Victor?

why waste so much editorial effort to commiserate with killed arab children that were klled in an active combat zone.i don't recall an adequate response to israeli children killed in civile surroundings.let arab parents keep their children out of harms way and bui toys for them instead of arms and rockets rudzeev

And who exactly decides my learned friend? An International Court of Justice?

Why do you do it? I have seen him/her called 'an academic'. If nurseryschool teachers are called 'academics' I suppose he/she would qualify. I see no detachment, no objectivity, no real regard for provenance of ideas. I have seen no logical connection between concepts. I have seen much misquotation, deliberate or because he/she doesn't have the intellectual equipment and rigour. You're all wasting your time.

Dear Jeff, I accept your statistics on the number of deaths, and yes, the rate of civilian deaths too is reasonably accurate. I have no objections there. But you are making a dreadful error. You are saying the Occupation is a war zone. It is not. This war as you describe it has gone on for 40 years. The only war I know of that has lasted longer is the hundred years war between the English and the French starting in the 14th century. Wars are fought between sides that inhabit different territories. In wars fought today, the combatants are therefore nation states. It is not a formal war when a nation attacks a non-state actor. It is certainly not a formal war, if a nation state has control over that territory and abuses the population within it. On both these counts, the Occupation is not a war. This is why it is referred to as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Geneva Convention discriminates between these different types of conflict, even if you do not. And I suspect there are political reasons for you doing so. It allows you to defend spuriously the appalling fatality rate and tell us the Israelis are moral because they kill civilians at the same rate as they kill insurgents. Where did you pick up this figure and who says it is acceptable? Whatever its origins, it is immoral. The logic of such a ratio is that the Israelis can kill a million Palestinian non-combatants, and this would be acceptable to you as long as they kill a million Palestinian insurgents. You could continue this line of logic to its ultimate conclusion. You can kill all of the Palestinians, as long as it is in a ratio of 1:1. Your logic allows a nation state to kill all the inhabitants in a conflict and claim it is a moral victory. The logic is of course rational, scientific and very Germanic, but with not an ounce of humanitarianism. It is genocide. Please reflect on this for a moment. Regards.

Dear Jeff, To continue my post, I would not necessarily take My Lai as an example, to quote you, ?and accuse all GI?s who served in Vietnam of being blood-thirsty baby killers?. However, one would need to look at the overall civilian casualty rate to make an informed opinion. When one does, it would seem that America is comfortable with extraordinarily high rates of civilian fatalities on the other side. This is in direct contrast to its claims to be a modern secular democracy. Locke articulated that life, liberty and property are the central tenets of democracy. Arbitrarily taking away the life of non-combatants is a crime. It is anti-democratic. America?s indiscriminate use of force has undermined its claims to be a leading democracy. An example of this criminal targeting of innocent civilians is the thousands of Cambodian farmers and their families (I have regularly heard quoted a figure of half a million) killed by the USAF in the 1970s. This was in an attempt to stem the flow of arms and ammunition coming down from North Vietnam to re-supply the Viet Cong. One could just about understand an atavistic desire to hurt the civilians of the other side for their support of the war effort, but to kill subsistence farmers in a neighbouring country, in their thousands, going about their legitimate business, should have sparked serious reflection of the American war-making ethic. It has not, and certainly not among the US military. This is a huge humanitarian mistake. In fact, it is criminal. You also say that, quote, ?it is invalid to argue from the particular to the general?. I disagree. The world of science disagrees. We discover a few bones from dinosaurs and we extrapolate from them quite a lot about what dinosaurs were. We measure particular characteristics of a population sample and from the results we use statistics to determine the probability of the result being due to chance. If there is a 5% or less probability of the result being due to chance, then we accept that result, and add it to our body of knowledge, from which we will make assumptions about the general population. Medical developments are based on this principle. We certainly do not rely on instinct alone to make decisions that affect the lives of others. Finally, you make a very pertinent observation about firefights that should have lead you to reflect on counter-insurgency operations. You say quote, ?Anyone who shows up in the middle of a battlefield, who has been warned to stay away from it, and who gets his head blown off by one side or the other is not going about their "lawfull business", but rather, is being just plain stupid..? If that battlefield happens to be the street where they live, their own backyard, or the piece of waste ground where their children play, it is not the inhabitants that are showing up in the middle of the firefight. That completely changes the scenario. I understand the problems that the US military have with formal rules of engagement. Their formative experiences were the ethnic cleansing of the North American Indians; genocide. This has damaged the way the US views civilians. Civilians are, to all intents and purposes, legitimate targets, though this is rarely explicitly expressed. There is little difference between the US and the Israeli perspective on this. It is very Germanic. Regards.

So children play tag with death . Sorry no excuse or forgiveness granted for the death of these babies . Stop the culling of children in these countries now . no excuses no excuses this is culling of the children . What about the 11 year old in the fig tree ... shot many times , and his injured brother . No excuses .

Guess I'm guilty of patient neglect - by your definition - all that time down at ground zero -and volunteering for SAR work fails to see terrorist/accident victims get proper care. But then I don't have to spent time trying to extricate my foot from my mouth like you do.

How sad to read such a flippant dismissal of a tragedy. But then they were just Arabs, right? It was not a staged production, eight Palestinians were blown up, including all the members of Huda Gabiya's family. The IDF investigation, as usual, found that the shrapnel removed from the victims' shattered bodies could not have come from IDF shells. Other investigations, some done by Israelis, found that the shrapnel was indeed from IDF shells. Do you not find it strange that it is never the Israelis' fault? Now that sounds like staged productions to me.

Dear Jeff, I will take issue with your claim that soldiers are not policemen. They are both soldiers and policemen. They are the front line in restoring law and order. They are the ones who oversee the transition from war to peaceful civilian administration. The police can only come in and enforce law and order when violence has reduced to a satisfactory level. You will observe this in just about every conclusion to a war. The Army also has a key role to play in policing a counter-insurgency. The police are not geared up psychologically and tactically for engaging insurgents. They do not have the weaponry or the training to confront an armed militia. This is an army role. Because soldiers do not find themselves, in the desert, the jungle, or other combat zones, facing heavily armed troops from the opposing army, they cannot adopt the same policies and tactics as they would facing down a regular army. When they operate daily within civilian communities, to maintain the same tactics as they would in a war is very simply criminal. They must have a sliding scale of responses. Shooting first and then asking questions afterwards is the sign of either professional incompetency or criminality. In an insurgency, soldiers must have specifically designed set of rules of engagement to guide them in determining what level of violence to resort to. They have to be skillful in a far greater number of roles and tactics than in traditional warfare. They have to be accurate in their target recognition, and then accurate in the snap judgments they have to make as to whether to open fire or not. To do that, they must know the rules of engagement off by heart. They must have that card on them for reference, and as a symbol that they operate on behalf of a democratic society, one that has respect for the right to life of all non-combatants. It is simply not good enough to say, as you do, that soldiers can operate from instinct. That is a complete and utter abrogation of responsibility and inevitably leads to war crimes. It takes skill and courage to delay opening fire on a house because you are not sure if there are non-combatants in there or not. Trigger happy soldiers will simply destroy the house. But the increase in civilian casualties, especially in counter-insurgency, will lead to increased resistance from the civilian population. This was one of the factors in the American defeat in Vietnam. Regards.

Wally, Natalie, Ibrahim, Clickfool, etc., you cannot convince Dr. Gross, ChanaS, BENJABO, KUTW, et alii, since they are "bibliynyky," as my mother used to say. Anyone who believes the OT literally has to approve of the killing of children, it is not simply condoned but commanded. Just two examples: Deuteronomy 20:16-20: "...in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do leave alive anything that breathes..." 1 Samuel 15: "...attack the Amalekites (identified presently as Palestinians)...do not spare them, put to death men and women, children and infants..." This is the word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.

or bombing markets in Thialand? Are there other factors involved in Islamic resistance you are not telling?

Lynn, thanks for your interest. Several years ago, I read hundreds of "counterterrorism blog" articles and concluded that their approach wasn't constructive. I believe that if I were born into another society, I would share similar beliefs of that society, plus/minus a few standards of deviation. So I'm not certain that I would rise above that norm. This philosophy has led me to a "behaviorist" approach to conflict resolution. To wit, we need to understand not only "what" they think, but "why" they think that way and "how" they got that way. The counterterrorism blog seems to me more of a "fear biter" organization: like looking under one's bed for Communists in the 1950s. Economics also plays a large part of my thinking, similar to Steph Wertheimer. Israel and the U.S. ,however, believe in submission tactics. Neither Bush nor Olmert want to be called "Sissy Girl Men". Needless to say, Jesus Christ would have been called "Sissy Girl Man" by many of today's leaders. So be it!

unfortunately for you, things will only get worse since Israel will soon reap the bitter seeds it has sown. I can not see any possibility that Israel will be able to do anything to stop its eventual destruction while the world casually watches it all happen. I realize there are many in Israel that think that Israel can continue to oppress the Arabs for as long as they want, but the clear lesson of history is the tide will turn. Since I do not like to see people die, I strongly recommend that Israelis get out of Israel as soon as possible.

kindergarten in Israel.? Was Israel using a Sderot kindergarten to launch missiles? using peoples backyards?the supermarket? What is the "proprtionate response" to Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." Legalese enough for you? Or would you prefer it without the Islamic twist as per the current Palestinian covenant.?

Who do they let into medical school these days? Obviously NOT YOU But then again Why are you so sure the DR is of medicine - THOSE WHO ASSUME...... As for geonocide and all your other cliches - ISRAEL DOES NOT PURPOSELY TARGET CIVILIANS - phony lies wont change that fact. THE ARABS DO PURPOSELY TARGET CIVILIANS - again REALITY NOT YPUR PHONY - ONE SIDED PROPAGANDA And UNLIKE YOU I STATE NUMEROUS TIMES ANY DEATH IS TRAGIC JEWISH - OR - ARAB - OR ANY OTHER GROUP BUT BLAME HERE MUST BE PLACED WHERE IT LIES - WITH THE ARABS WHO USE CHILDREN AS HUMAN SHIELDS AND TOOLS OF WAR

And of course when israel went into Olso, it was all a big scam right?

But its O.K. for the U.S. to kill civilians with their air attacks - as part of their WAR ON TERROR? Get real - start in your own back yard

Several posts questioned how my Arab and Muslim friends feel about the atrocities committed by Palestinian militants. With only one exception, they feel that it is not the right way to gain Palestinian freedom, and use India and South Africa as examples. However, they say that they understand how 2nd and 3rd generation Palestinian refugees see no horizon. They also believe that the Jewish settlements reflect the Israeli government's true intentions to goad the Palestinians into violent acts, which subsequently will justify the complete occupation of Judea and Samaria. Some of them do have hatred towards Jews. But when they express antisemitic feelings, they are soundly rebuked by others, who sometimes call them Islamic K---s.

Of course these supposed quotes and notes would have grave implications if indeed they are bona fide and are derived from their respective Charters no doubt... So as a matter of course, please refer us to the legitimate 'recent' (updated) Charter translations or pronouncements made by their respective leaders. Now, in your estimation does this mean that it would be impossible for any future Palestinian State to be an independent and unique entity as against being one part of a feared new Caliphate bent upon amongst other things, freeing their Palestinian 'brothers' from oppression etc?? Iraq would be (have been)one country to resist a religious hegemony. Hussein was in no way on friendly terms with the Religious Fanatics. He also, was trying to support the victims of the Internationally Declared ILLEGAL OCCUPATION and help them realise their 'freedom'. Without the annexation and 'Occupation' would there be a 'HAMAS' and 'FATAH' entities?? Aren't you being a little alarmist??

"PA sources claimed three teenagers and children were killed in the strike. The children were apparently sent by Hamas terrorists to adjust the launchers. The IDF identified five launchers with suspicious figures moving among them and launched the strike." Both the P.A. and IDF sources are claiming THE CHILDREN WEREN'T THERE PLAYING TAG - THEY WERE PAID BT HAMAS TO ADJUST THE ROCKET LAUNCHERS The day before the army intercepted a TEEN WEARING A LIVE BOMB BELT TRYING TO CROSS THE BORDER THE PEOPLE TO BLAME HERE ARE THE ARAB TERRORISTS WHO USE CHILDREN AS HUMAN SHIELDS - AND TO CONDUCT THEIR ATTACKS Still searching Re. air versus ground attack - have seen different reports - some saying it was a helicopter strike - others a ground unit - either way - if these kids were dooped by the terrorists into PLAYING AN ACTIVE ROLL IN TERRORISM - its those individuals not Israel who can be blamed for these childrens deaths.

By the way - another assumption on your part - THE RAMBAM OATH HANGS IN MY OFFICE

Seems to me you are Assumeing I'm in a specialty that has a private practice - or - consistent patient base. And you know what they say about people who assume.

I guess click with 45,000 negative Israeli posts is more credible.

Before the Warsaw ghetto uprising no one ever thought Jews would defend themselves. Now that they d it is a terrible thing.

A lot of people must take the blame for this one. Unfortunately your friend and mine click, as usual, only sees Israel of the boogyman. What about Hamas that usually uses children in their nefarious activities. What about the children's parents that did not know their children's whereabouts. What about Hamas that put Gazan civilians in harms way.

"Count on Me" by Jefferson Starship, 1978 Precious love, I'll give it to you, blue as the sky and deep in the eyes of love so true, beautiful face, you make me feel, lite on the stairs and lost in the air of a love so real And you can count on me girl, you can count on my love woman, you can count on me baby, you can count on my love to see you through Emerald eyes and china perfume, caught in the wheel and lost in the feel of a love so soon, ruby lips, you make my song, into the night and saved by the lite of a love so strong And you can count on me girl, you can count on my love woman, you can count on me baby, you can count on my love to see you through See you through...ooh you can count on me girl, you can count on my love.

During every Labour Day weekend, before the young ones return to school or university, radio stations blast top songs of the past. Today while on an outing in the country, a soft-rock, catchy ballad of 1978, "Count on Me" by Jefferson Starship, composed by Jesse Barish, brought back nostalgic days of my teenage years. We are fortunate to be able to have such pleasurable, lovely memories unlike these young people in the Middle East whose lives are unnecessarily cut short. Perhaps if we had acted more urgently and honestly decades ago and reconciled this solvable dispute - maybe when I was 18 in 1978 - such precious young lives, whether a Palestinian child or a young IDF soldier, would have been spared. How many more children do we have to mourn? con't - words of the song

Wally, you are calling others "Idiots". You must be superbly intelligent compared to the rest of us. ============= Please be kind and tell me if you have ever heard of a moral war? Or have you ever heard of a war where children and civilians were not killed?

Chet, This is a war, and innocent people die and both sides. I don't understand why the Arab parents allow their kids to play next to the rocked launchers?

Howdy Lakshmi; Aside from the fact that UNGARs are nonbinding, unenforceable, and not a part of the body of international law, why do you continue to insist that UNGARs 181 & 194 are still valid? If UNGAR 181 was between the UN (as the successor to the League of Nations) and the mandatory power (the U.K.) only, then it died when the Mandate officially terminated on 5/15/1948. Actually, it is clear from the wording of UNGAR 181 that its implementation was contingent upon both of the beneficiaries accepting the proposal which didn't happen. There are many so-called "laws" still "on the books" including the XVIIIth Amendment to the Constitution of the U.S. (Prohibition, 1919), but if you read a little further, you will find the XXIst Amendment (1933) which says (in part): "The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed." Nevertheless, the 18th Amendment is still "on the books" in theory as an historical curiosity.

Thanks for the information. I'll try to take a look, although for sure, it will give me heart failure. I have many sleepless nights just being here. I realised already a year ago that there would be a very concerted diplomatic and propoganda effort against Israel. Indeed, some people on the other side had warned me about it. Take care, Lynn, Cipora

So is the Palestinian covenant. The fact that neither have been altered speaks for itself. The authors of the charter and covenant are the elected rulers ofPalestine so crying UN is just a cop out They have by their own OFFICIAL charters no intention of observing ANY UN resolutions.

clearly and unequivocally. Please quote the pronouncement.

Only countries who have called for the resurrection of 181 are 22 Arab countries. Rejected out of hand by the SC.

Perhaps in Sanskrit terminology changes from day to day. In modern languages this does not happen because people will get totally confused. If you want to understand what "1982 lands" means to Haniyeh, you need to do some research, not sit in your chair, read one statement, and fantasize about what it could mean. This is how you decipher a language, by reading many texts. I am not talking about the understanding you don't have, the fact that 181 is in complete conflict with Haniyeh's beliefs; just about the non-methodology of theories based on nothing. Let me suggest to you that the "discovery" that Haniyeh is proposing Res. 181 is "earth shaking". Write a paper about it and try to publish. Don't worry, Hamas will not assassinate you for distorting their religion; your paper will not be published but at least you will learn how to work a little (or may be not).

You really need to see this. Unwatch.org, tDurbin Conference. These lasr four days are something to read. BTW, Libya chairs this HUMAN RIGHTS conference. Top of home page.

Why did Meshal in a CNN interview this week, which I saw on Thurs. Aug. 30/07, state that the conference in November without Hamas's participation will be a failure? What's Meshal insinuating here? Doesn't he know the conference/summit involves only parties recognizing the premise of two states side-by-side, Israel and Palestine? What, did I miss any recent moderation stance by Hamas with regards to the main issues? Why does he want to be invited now to Washington? Did they accept the 3 conditional principles of the Quartet - recognizing Israel, renouncing violence and accepting the previous agreements?

Durbin is coming in 2009. I think you should go to UNwatch.org and read some of the attempted new subjects the Islamic countries are trying to get submitted for review. They, along with some of our other favorite countries, are trying to get rid of the Special Rappoteurs for Human Rights. There is a huge fight going on with Libya as chair. Four days worth of info.

If someone is offered part of something, refuses on the gorounds that he wants all of it, spends the next 60 years demanding and fighting for it, causing a great deal of death, destruction and general all round suffering for all concerned - he is in no way entitled to demand that part thereafter. Having failed to procure the entire something, he is now only in a position to accept thatpart which is offered to him as a goodwill gesture. That's how the world works Lakshmi - and not how you would deemit to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEXQHqXmCRg

I am sorry I offended you with the title of my last post to you. Unfortunately you seem to attribute "lack of respect" to my community...apparantly you don't read the posts of the pro-Israel crowd...Please have a close look and understand "lack of respect" is a HUMAN trait in times of conflict, NOT an Arab or Muslim trait. I don't blame you for your persistent attempts to label Arabs and Muslims in deragotory terms...it is a neccessary part of rationalizing the Israeli occupation, which I have seen all tooo much of, particular the way it saps the hope and life out of people. Dennis Ross was a complete failure. He did not want to take the issue of settlement expansion seriously, and then he comes out in Camp David with plans that leave over 80% of them in place. Sorry, buddy, ex-AIPAC officials are generally not the kind of people you want as even-handed peace negotiators. Please read Robert Malley and at the very least, understand the "Dennis Ross" narrative is not the only one

As usual your ignorance precedes your intelligence...Israel paid the families of the sailors that were on the U.S.Liberty (even though they were spying on Israel and refused to identify themselves) and Israel treats EVEN the homicide bombers alongside their victims. When you know nothing keep your mouth closed...you will appear less bigoted and less foolish.

about two weeks ago,not earlier,not June(AP).I have been reading his speeches from time to time.This is the latest.I go by that. And my theory has been advocated by other people also(not every one posts on Haaretz Talk Back).I endorse the 181 plan because it is just and fair.It happens to coincide with what Haniyeh called for recently.

Calling now for the UN 181 resolution to be implemented is like calling for the Treaty of Versalles after WWI to be reimplemented! The Un called oon a peacefull solution but moved no finger to IMPOSE IT. leaving the Jews to fight the 5 Arab invaidng armies !!! Are Isarelis suposed to put their lifes in the hands of the UN, its resolutions, and the GOOD will of the Arabs? . If you belive this you need a good exam of your head.. Much TOO LATE FOR THAT.. in fact 2000 years too late! Its not going to happen, even if it takes an action from Isarel you have not seen or even dreamed before! Consider this fair warning! Me and milions of Jews from over the world would be there in Isarel, before you can say -Alah huAkbar- to defend her if there is ever such a threat! Lakshami, are you sure you took care of your oligophreny?

You will never convince her, no matter what. She is ignorant, or else a liar, and stubborn. I hope you are well, Cipora

Don't you know that either? Blame the Hamas launchers who use civillian areas to launch. Your legal "expertise" does not seem to extend that far.

The 1922 mandate is a cool idea. you go all out for your hopeless dream and I'll stick with mine. Paul Harris for one on here, supports it and many right wing zionists hanker after a Jewish West Bank with the Palestinians exiled to Jordan. Sweet dreams it is then?

The GA has no authority to set up international tribunals. The tribunals set up for Yugoslavia and for Rwanda were set up by the SC under Chapter IIV. You really have to learn not to make assertions without proper proof.

Howdy Lakshmi; "Haniyeh is not calling for all of israel.He is calling for Res.181 which gives them 44% of the land.To that he has added East Jerusalem as the capital and the right of refugees to return." In that case, ex-PM Haniyeh the Deposed can go to hell, but I don't think that he has ever said that Hamas will ever settle for anything less than all of the old British Mandate of Palestine (minus Trans-Jordan) as its ultimate goal (half-assed, 10-year hudnas notwithstanding). "I endorse that." I don't. "181 & 194 are alive & well." UNGARs 181 & 194 are deader than doornails and so is the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty and the Dred Scott decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. "But that is not the issue here.What is Haniyeh calling for?" Why don't you ask him to explain it to you, or better yet, ask his boss Meshal in Damascus what Hamas means by "1948 lands"? Hint: you can get a good idea by reading the Charter of Allah: the Platform of the Islamic Resistence Mo

Counterterrorismblog.org, has alot of info from Indicted terrorist orgs and co-conspirators. I find it unusual because they just report in an unbiased fashion events which are taking place around the planet. I wanted to give you the website due to info you may be interested in reading.

Lakshmi, you can promote the 181 plan as you wish. It's a free world. There are all kinds of fantasizers here, some believing that the Mandate of 1922 is still valid. Why not pursue your own fantasy. You cannot attribute to Haniye the 181 plan; it is not consistent with his ideology and he never mentioned it. Of course, you have a theory that he does mean it. Theories without work are worthless. You would not move yourself to do a bit of work, look thru some speeches of his to determine the truth. Frankly, I dislike such an attitude of lazy spreaders of falsehoods. If you want to make yourself another joker here, OK.

It is not a misconception, but a lie.

Mark, are you a mind reader? Maybe you have bugged the offices of the various high level Israeli officials? Just a hint Mark: all Israel would care about is Hamas military capabilities and plans.

it.Res. 181 was between the mandatory power and the UN and could not be changed if either of the beneficiaries rejected it or accepted it.It stays in the books.The UN has on many occasions called for Res. 181,the most prominent being the UN Commission on Human Rights calling for Palestinian Self Determination on the basis of the 1947 Partition Resolution 181.So,when Haniyeh calls for 1948 lands he is calling for israel to go back to the Partition line.In my opinion,this is a just and fair settlement. As for all the other issues,about who started which war and so on,this is now history.And these are controversial issues,not just the way you see them. The question now is:what kind of settlement,and who will be the major players?Any realistic assessment will immediately say:Hamas has to be part of the game or there is no game.

to understand? When can we expect your profound insights into Hamas killing a demonstrating teenager or refusal of Hamas to stop firing from amongst their civillians?

HAMAS. Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." FATAH. July 1-17, 1968 Article 1:Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation. Article 2:Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit. Pease describe where you see the end point of "resistance"?

died the moment Israel accepted the partition (although they were not hapy with it) and the Arabs rejected it and attacked Israel from all sides. The Arabs lost. And you have the gall to come here claiming that this is what the Palestinian demands should be based on. Get a life! Israel's Arab enemies have a consistent history of attaking Israel and then running to the UN when they see they are losing - happened in 1967, 1973, Last summer in Lebanon. Do you honestly think they would allow the UN a word in edgeways if - heaven forbid - the shoe was on the other foot??

So your Jewish friends "support Israeli, but hysterically so" - what on earth does this mean? And what do all your Moslem friends think of Muslim terrorists and suicide bombers who indiscriminately murder civilians daily (mainly women and children in markets in Iraq and on the rare occasion now - thanks to the fence and the IDF)? Huh? Are they also hysterical about it? Or don't you discuss this touchy issue?

areas for firing in the future. Do they care about anything other than Jihad for the "Islamic republic of Palestine from the river to the sea?

Unfortunately, the IDF is telling the truth when they say that pals use children for terror.

"While I am not in the business of denying history (as perhaps you are), I can`t accept regurgatated PR phrases" Thats a good one ! If you do not deny history then you should admit that 1)arabs tried over and over again to destroy Israel 2) arabs lost every war 3) Israel gained more and more land due to victory. 4) there is no peace partner for Israel, unless you expect Israel to roll out the red carpet for Hamas (and you probably do)

Please!!! With all of Congress voting on a resolution for Israel and 95% backing from the US citizens, just how soon do you think that is going to happen? What the US is looking for is a solution without using force to a problem which needs resolved.

Howdy Lakshmi; Although the boundaries of the British Mandate of Palestine were in a state of flux between 1917 and 1923 (especially in regard to the Golan Heights and the area south of the Litani River in what is now Lebanon), by 1923, the boundaries had pretty much crystalized between the British and French Mandates. Using current land figures only, the British Mandate consisted of: Trans-Jordan (now Jordan): 91,971 sq. Km. Israel: 20,330 sq. Km. West Bank: 5,640 sq. Km. Gaza Strip: 360 sq. Km. for a total of 118,301 sq. Km. In other words, Israel got 17.18% of the Mandate for her state and the Arabs got 82.82% for theirs, but they blew it. Of course, you will undoubtedly subtract Jordan out of the picture, but that's your problem.

for all of israel.He is calling for Res.181 which gives them 44% of the land.To that he has added East Jerusalem as the capital and the right of refugees to return. I endorse that. 181 & 194 are alive & well. But that is not the issue here.What is Haniyeh calling for?

Do you have anyy idea how the occupation came about? Learn the rel meaning of cause and effect - not the one that supports your ignorant comment.

Dutch, you always protest when the IDF kills a pal, no matter if he is a terrorist caught with his hands in the dough. So, from your point of view, killing a kid who was playing is not different from killing a terrorist when at his business. As a conclusion, you are not against terrorism; therefore, your protest holds no water. KUTW

I don't regard building communities, leading productive lives and ceating employment ad economic success for all an obscenity at all. I regard destruction, killing, stupidity, tyranny, and incessant attacks in the hope of killing as many people and causing as much damage as possible (although there is no hope of these actions boding good) as obscene. I regard the constant attack by hamas terorists on border crossing (see today), keeping them closed, and then crying wold to the world about Israel's intentions to starve them as obscene. I consider the purchase of weapons and the avoidance of creating a civil society and caring for the welfare of the peole by leaders as obscene. My post contained no PR - just facts. The three nos came from the Arab league and not from Nasser.What else do you want to spin?

virtually all of my Muslim friends are appalled at the actions of the Iranian/Syrian/Lebanese governments. It's true, they really are...all of my Muslim friends...come on, don't you believe me???

You say: "You can`t have commerce while under seige. Any Turkish Business knows this": That may true be for Turkish businesses and Gazan businesses. It isn't so for Israeli businesses. We have been at war with all of our neighbours some of the time and some of our neighbours the rest of the time but we have a successful country. Pity you didn't tell us that before. We'd have known we were doing the wrong thing.

let them go to jordan the 78% of the palestine mandate ! no occupation no resistance !!!!

NO OCCUPATION...NO RESISTANCE !!! In it's simplest form...

Natallie Durson's posts really hit an unsettling nerve among some Israeli supporters, particularly whose who are in near hysterical and total "denial". With total disregard for the actual words that Natallie has uttered, she has never-the-less been accused of 1) supporting America's actions in Iraq, 2) supporting the Islamic Jihad's shelling of Sderot, 3) supporting the killing of Israeli children, 4) worshiping militant Palestinians as heroes, 5) believing that human lives are nothing but numbers. As for those who dispute Natallie's assertion that many of Israeli's supporters on this site cheer the killing of Palestinian children, there is no hope. They've gone over the edge, and no psychological counseling can alter their hysteria. One simply cannot use logic with emotionally disturbed people. On a positive note, virtually all of my Jewish friends are appalled at the actions of the IDF and their government. They support Israel, but hysterically so.

And I have never posted anything like (Ibrahim get real) out od respect. Something that is lacking in your community. You can not dismiss the person whoo was the architect of the negotiationss account which was also confirmed by president Clinton and Albreight. And yes investors will not invest as long as Gaza is not stable but it is not Israel's fault that Fatah and hamas made it into a battleground against each other and Israel. First you must fix your own internal problems and then start making peace with Israel.

Mark wrote, that Israel's "current plan to destroy Hamas by starving Gaza into submission might fail." Sounds good Marky, only one problem, nobody is starving in Gaza, not for lack of food, or to fit into a crazy pocka-dot bikini. If they were starving we would be tsunamied with Biafarin style photo journalim, showing children emaciated and dying in the streets. Haniyeh afterall is no lightweight, and those thugs in hoods look quite fit. So where is the starvation and what of your theory? Another misconception of yours is that the Likud was the beginning of the end. Actually the Likud only came into power in 1977. Now I appreciate that you have never been to Israel, but I remember on my first visit to Hebron in 1974, that Kiryat Arba, the Jewish town set up next to Hebron was huge and growing. 1974, ah yes, a Labor gov't. Now I realize Marky that you have become somewhat Diet-Left, but please do not let your infatuation with George Dumbya blind you too much.

you appear to beunable to collect your thoughts on the real!! no resolution made by the un has any legal meaning ! the discussion on territory is only because the mandate was invaded by 5 arab armies ! hamas are real and have ended the pa plo theivery of the last 12 years ! however the usa has decided to back them and starve out hamas if possible ! they are not trying very hard whilst israel supplies gaza with essentials and utility services ! the stupidity of disengagement backed by the usa is also apparent!! someone should tell your friend bush " you cant make a silk purse from a sows ear "

without the USA protection, yes Israel will have to give back land according the 1947 resoultion ... and who knows may be this protection will stop sooner than you think

forget lengthy verbal explanations and look at the maps.Res.181 gave Palestinians 44% land and israel got the balance(excluding jerusalem).The armistice gave 78 % of mandatory Palestine or even slightly less.Point here is: 1.The 181 Partition Line and all subsequent lines,green line,blue line,whatever,differ from the Partition Line,because Palestinians got LESS.I am arguing for the original Partition line and so is Haniyeh.He is not talking about all of israel. 2.Disagree that Res.181 is a closed book.The General Assembly repeatedly came back to Res.181.Never mind that the SC did not and will still not approve(for well known reasons!).But UNHCR in Geneva specifically called for Palestinian self determination on the basis of the 1947 UN Partition Resolution.They would not have called for a 'revival' if it was written in stone that such was not possible,till the end of time! And it is important that Haniyeh's position be seen as calling for the Partition Line,when he says the 1948 land

Howdy Lakshmi; Although Tosefta and I disagree most of the time, he is right on this one and you are wrong. UNGAR 181 and its sequel UNGAR 194 are legally dead. UNGARs cannot "give" anything to anybody, they can only propose. The Green Line was established as a temporary armistice line (at Arab insistence) at the Rhodes Conference in 1949 and not by UNSCR 242 which left the determination of the final borders up to future negotiations between the belligerant parties. When ex-PM Haniyeh refers to "1948 lands", he is talking about all of the old British Mandate of Palestine (minus Trans-Jordan) as it was prior to the official termination of the Mandate on 5/15/48 as confirmed by the Hamas Charter and by several other Hamas leaders recently (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEXQHqXmCRg ). UNGAR 181 and its reiteration by UNGAR 194 did not propose that East Jerusalem was to be the capital of Palestine. On the contrary, they proposed that all of Jerusalem be internationally administered

I find so many Israelis intellectually dishonest or lazy regarding the conflict. For you, in 1988, when the PLO accepted the two state solution, it was tactics aimed at (of course) destroying Israel... But of course, in 1948, the Zionists accepted partition, not for tactics, but out of a sincere belief in comprimise and peace... Please, study the actual record of events.

David, Please, I hope you understand that I don't exactly hold Dennis Ross' narrative as the definitive. Please do yourself a favor and read a few other sources, such as Robert Malley's, who was a special assistant to Clinton at Camp David. Dennis Ross has too close of ties to AIPAC to be credible. Now...if you don't believe me, then please, compare Barak's non-starter offer at Camp David, with the negotiations at Taba that happened 6 months later. The tragedy for both people is that Camp David was a joke, and the US and Israel AND PA, did not get into serious negotiations until after the second intifaddeh broke out. As for Gaza, there will be investment and energy spent on developement at least concurrently with political progress (which Israel is not that interested in). You can't have commerce while under seige. Any Turkish Business knows this, as does Intel Corp, who is planning an IT dev center in Gaza.

As you mentioned Israel is in peace with Egypt since 1979 and also in peace with Jordan. Israel has a track records to make peace. Again I will mention it: At Camp David a great offer was made that Arafat refused. When the Palestinian Arabs will stop terror and claims over all the land all the way to the mediterranean sea including Tel Aviv and consider Israel a partner in the region then Israel will more than happy to make peace.

Howdy Nick; The point is that most of these so-called "war crimes" evaporate on close examination, but I will admit that they can occur in any army and the IDF is no exception. However, it is invalid to argue from the particular to the general. Shoot, that's like trying to take the My Lai Massacre and accuse all G.I.'s who served in Vietnam of being blood-thirsty baby killers. Most soldiers don't need a law book to tell them right from wrong. Most of them simply fall back on their instincts, training, and own personal moral code. Have you ever been a firefight? When the bullets start flying, everything that moves and which is not wearing the same uniform as you are gets blasted. That's the way it goes "collateral damage" and all. Anyone who shows up in the middle of a battlefield, who has been warned to stay away from it, and who gets his head blown off by one side or the other is not going about their "lawfull business", but rather, is being just plain stupid.

1. "The Green Line is the creature of Res.242" - Lakshmi The Green Line is a creature of the 1949 Armistice Lines. Better drink some coffee and don't type while half asleep. Res, 242 does not mention the words Green Line. 2. "Haniyeh is not saying he wants all of israel,he is saying he wants that bite that israel took from 181,and yes it is on the israeli side of the Green Line." If you can't make out what he, and other Hamas people mean when they say "1982 lands", either read the associated Press which explained it to you, or read multiple mentions on the internet and try to understand them, or take a sabbatical and learn the subject. You endorse 181. Haniye never mentioned 181 . He knows his Charter and he is not following you but his own religion. Try thinking again next morning. Perhaps it is too late now.

arrogance towards your fellow posters with whom you don't agree, but it appears I was very wrong, at least based on reading your post to David Israel. And as for the content: 1)Israelis settled on 20% of the Gaza Strip that consisted of dunes of sand that had never been cultivated, nvever! Israel left those dunes of sand as productive agricultural land that the local Arabs vandalized and are still to produce anything there, two years since Israel left that land. 2)Israel has indeed set out to live along side a Palestinian Arab state since 1947 based on UN resolution. The Arabs set out to annihilate the Jewish state of Israel, and the democratically elected Hamas that is the strongest movement among Palestinian Arabs still does not accept Israel's right to exist, let alone to exist in peace, and this is a movement elected by the majority of Palestinian Arabs a year and a half ago! 3)In 1988 a different tactical move to eliminate the Jewish state of Israel began.

I am glad you will now be pushing for 181 under your own label. Let me go thru your points: 1. 181 indeed not binding. 2. Israel did not "accept" 181. As the admission resolution said: "taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions". Now you have to look at what declarations and explanations were made by Israel regarding 181. After you do that you will realize that nothing more is left of them. 3-4. All true. The resolution accomplished everything within the authority of the GA to impose. 5. The resolution is no longer calling for any action, other than the security council to pass resolution of implementation, which it did not do, and since they are rational people, they will never do. But do ask India to beg them. 6. Whatever is derived from the resolution has no more power than the resolution. 7. I explained, more than once. The GA has the authority to terminate or change the condition of the mandate. It did that. As a result, the Mandate ended in 1948. The GA has no authority to decide on what happens AFTER the Mandate is over. Therefore, their Partition Plan needed confirmation by the Security Council. It was never given. Now it is all over. But you can always ask the Indian government to act to pass a Security Council Resolution requiring half the Jewish population of Israel to move out of their homes because in 1947 the area was not Jewish. And Israel can pressure the Security Council to demand that the entire human species move back to Africa since it was there 50,000 years ago.

I think that if these kids did not recognize what a Quassam rocket launcher looked like, especially by the ages of 12 and 10, surely Hamas would be enraged. Were they not watching enough Hamas television with Micky and the Bee giving instruction on the meaning and destiny of Jihad, Shahid and the hatred and killing of Jews Enshallah? Perhaps the children were raised by decent palestinian families that tried to shelter them from the wickedness of Radical Islam in Gaza and the other Arab nations? Or perhaps, the children had been deprived of the conditions to promote normal cognitive development because Hamas and radical elements would rather spend every last dime on the radicalization of the population instead of on education, proper neutrition, hospitals, citizenship etc.? Oh, I forgot they do learn about citizenship but Gaza citizenship is about seeking martyrdom, killing Jews and avoiding productivity to ensure perpetual handouts by the UN.

Sir, IDF is wrong. They pretend not to be able to predict events. Arabs should be their example... "The August total included 520 people killed in quadruple suicide bombings on Yazidi communities near the Syrian border." May be they have to enter Gaza and kill 500 armed banditry? What is your advice, Sir? Thank you

Howdy Nick; Actually, the IDF rules of engagement and its restraint are reflected in the Palestinian fatality rates for the past seven years. The total number of Palestinian deaths due to the IDF is currently less than 5,000. Using figures from a year ago, over half (56%) were combatants and 44% were civilians. Believe it or not, that is a very good civilian-to-combatant kill ratio during a period of armed conflict since the usual ratio is 3 civilians for every combatant. A ratio of approximately 1-to-1 reflects great credit on the IDF for its comportment in difficult circumstances in which the enemy does not wear uniforms or insignia, employs children as young as ten, and embeds itself in the civilian population. I'm not saying that there haven't been war crimes commited by the IDF; just that they are extremely rare. The one-ton bomb on the apartment building to kill one terrorist (plus quite a few civilians including children) was a clear violation of the Principle of Proportio

are consistent.The Green Line is the creature of Res.242,which eats up the land given by Res.181.Haniyeh is not saying he wants all of israel,he is saying he wants that bite that israel took from 181,and yes it is on the israeli side of the Green Line. Here is my position,which actually happens to coincide with Haniyeh's position:I endorse Res.181 + East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine.

Haaretz does not hate you or love you. They just wish to spare us your silliness.

Hamas is showering rockets at Sderot. The armytakes out a rocket launcher. The army has to defend its citizens. Hams has to protect its citizens by keeping them away from a war zone. Would you allow children to paly on a motorway? if hams stos the rockets the resposnes would also stop. They have the choice, for goodness sake.

"when Hamas says "1948 lands", they mean Israeli territory (within the Green Line). It does not depend on which speech they give, today or tomorrow. This is their term." - Tosefta Yup. "Hamas knows that 181 is legally dead." - Tosefta Clearly. Their Ideology maintains the recover of 1948 lands, but their current Policy is to recover the occupied territories. One reason I consider Hamas as very dangerous to Israel is that the leadership of Hamas is responding to circumstances faster and more adroitly than the leadership of Israel is. None on the right have considered whether the current plan to destroy Hamas by starving Gaza into submission might fail. Nor have they considered failure modes. Worst of all they have done no analysis of what happens with those various modes. When Gazans are clearly dying due to Israeli actions, will it hurt Hamas or will it be used as a material example to the world of why Israel is evil?

ChannahS...can't you just admit the occupation of Gaza was an obscenity to the Jewish People? 5000 Privledged Jewish settlers controlling 25% while 1.2 million Palestinians could barely move around their small piece of earth... And you have the gall to complain about Jewish ownership in Gaza prior to 1948? Even the Israel PR machine doesn't use such ignorant excuses....I suppose all the Palestinians should move back to Israel now, given all their land ownership and 100's of villages destroyed by Israel... You, my friend, are outside the bounds of reason.

I do accept the "three no's"...it happened back in 1967, and it was the talk of Nasser...In case you missed it, Israel and Egypt are at peace. So is Israel and Jordan. While I am not in the business of denying history (as perhaps you are), I can't accept regurgatated PR phrases to explain Israel's ongoing refusal to make peace with the Palestinians. It don't take a rocket scientist to see Israel wants to keep tensions high with ongoing operations to insure the peace talks fail or take forever...

When Israel was leaving Gaza a group of Turkish businessman and a big Turkish Business organization visited the PA leadership along with the Turkish PM (Islamist very religious PM who had invited Meshaal to Turkey) Erdogan. They promised to make investments for an industrial infrastructure geared towards exports. They were ready to invest a lot of money because Turkish textile and manufacturing business needs cheap labor which they get from Iran. They would prefer Gaza. However after 2 years there has not been one request from Arabs to take on this offer. Instead of building their land they are focused on destroying their neighbor.

invalid.1Yes,it is a GA Res.and therefore not binding.2.But it was the condition of israel's acceptance of it that allowed for israel's admission(that,&194)to UN.3.181's existence was not conditional on both beneficiaries accepting it(the arabs did not) 4.It was between the UN & the mandatory power Britain(which therefore did not vote during the proceedings) 5.It is still in the books 6.The UN's own body would not have passed a resolution calling for Palestinian self determination on the basis of the 1947 UN Partition Res.181.(Commission on Human Rights). 7.You have not explained your assertion other than repeating it.What is your basis for making it?It was legally alive in 1947 & why is it not so now?Explain. P.S.forget Hamas,Haniyeh etc.yes I checked 1948 lands and it seems to be israel on its side of the Green Line.En passant,it is contradictory for Hamas to ask for Unity Govt. and still ask for the 1948 lands.But never mind what he said or did not say,or any advice I have to give

hi is Dr. of absolute stupidity

However sometime my wife shops at Whitley Plaza, we have a bite at Kitchen Cabaret, Often stop at the shopping malls at Old Country road and eat at Shish Kebab or Vincents Clam bar (I know not very Kosher! but my wife is Chinese.

I as well as many others explained It in Haaretz posts many times. It was explained in big detail in (The Missing peace) by Dennis Ross. The information in the book is corroborated by the records kept and archived. President Clinton and Madeleine Albright as well as other diplomats and negotiators who were present also confirm that the book is a correct history of the events.

Dear ChanahS, Thank you for replying to my post. Let?s assume you are right, that the incidents you describe all lead to the inevitability of occupation. What is a so-called democracy still doing there after 40 years? In victory, democracies do regime change. Why hasn?t Israel? Regards.

Dear David, Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. You reject the description of the West Bank as a law enforcement scenario. Are you saying that Israel is not running an occupation then? On reflection, I think I agree with you. It is running an ethnic cleansing operation. Now I understand it. That is why the IDF shoots at any one, including innocent civilians, it is to intimidate the Palestinians into leaving, like Israel did in 1948. Some things never change, do they? You didn?t seem to like my description of Israel firing indiscriminately into unarmed demonstrators. Could I suggest that you go to the web site B?Tselem. Have a read of the descriptions of the individual deaths of Palestinians. They were in their houses, they were shopping, coming back from school, playing in the yard, traveling in a car, walking down the street, chatting in doorways, when their lives were brutally extinguished. I can understand the odd mistake, but over two thousand innocent deaths in seven years is not a mistake. Are you saying that the 300 deaths of unarmed civilians so far this year in the West Bank were unfortunate errors of judgment? Wow, what military incompetence! Regards.

Mesdames et Messieurs, "The August total included 520 people killed in quadruple suicide bombings on Yazidi communities near the Syrian border."

SOON SECTERIAN VIOLENCE MIGHT SPREAD TO INDIA,AND HINDUS AND MUSLIMS KILLING EACHOTHER AGAIN,,,,,,,OH MY,I DOUBT MUSLIM CLERICS WILL BE SINGING INDIA IS STILL THE MOST WONDERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD,AND THIS TIME YOU CANT BLAME ISRAEL. REGARDS ;)

Dear Rich, thank you for replying to my post. Your concern about the insurgency in the South of Thailand is appreciated. owever, you made no reference at all, in any shape or form, to the deaths of hundreds of Muslims. Why is that? Perhaps you would like to explain why you think it is only Buddhists that have suffered? Why has there been a rebellion from the Southern provinces? I am curious as to how you see insurgency, particularly Muslim ones. Regards. Nick

poor tosefta is having touble keeping all his personae and his fanclub in order....so much so that he stumbled upon a truth by mistake. hehe it's rare that I bother reading so maybe it isn't a stumble and he has decided to take a new angle and be more truthful than clever and crafty?? "Underlining the Hamas rejection of the existence of Israel, Haniyeh addressed his remarks to Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and "the 1948 lands," a reference to Israel, created in that year." - Associated Press (June 24, 2007) This makes even more sense. They want ALL 100% of mandatory Palestine."-tosefta whew, and all this time espousing capitulation and hudna like a true patriot. the arabist apologist blurts out a truth that is worth repeating. "They want ALL 100% of mandatory Palestine."

WE DO NOT GIVE SWEETS OR DANCE IN THE STREET WHEN ARAB KIDS GET KILLED, YOU ALLREADY KNOW WHICH SIDES DID THAT, FURTHERMORE WE EXPRESSED REGRETTS ABOUT THE INCIDENT.HAS PALS EVER REGRETTED ISRAELI KIDS BEEN KILLED?????????

AND WHAT MAKES YOU THINK WE ENJOY THE DEATH OF THESE KIDS,YOU LEFT WING LOONYS ARE SUCKERS FOR TAQIYAA,WE DID EXPRESS REGRETTS IN MORE THAN ONE POST, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ARAB REACTIONS TO ISRAELI DEATHS???CHILDREN INCLUDED, ...SHOCKING I MUST SAY

"They were offered £1 million for the unfortunate death of an illegal immigrant Who ran away from police" - Ch.L. Sir, http://www.guardian.co.uk/menezes/story/0,,1691541,00.html Victim's family angry at £15,000 compensation Earlier media reports had wrongly suggested the family had been offered £500,000

USA IS NOT AT WAR AND HASNT FIRED THEIR MISSILES @ ANYONE TO DATE FROM THEIR OWN SOIL!!!!

Last week, a 15 year old with a suicide belt strapped on him. I've repeatedly posted about the 10 year old sent through a WB checkpoint with a radio controlled bomb in his backpack. Even AI was forced to demand the Pals stop using children. When they recognize it, you know it must be incontrovertible. Even if you're so ignorant as to only be able to find wikipedia, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict. "shoot indiscriminately into crowds", which Israel's never done. Of course, rockets are fired by your friends indiscriminately on a daily basis. "not a war zone"? Hamas, Fatah, IJ, the Arab League and other Arab organizations disagree with you. Now, quit lying and avoiding the truth.

Ahh, so British troops kill civilians and, because it was a "NATO" operation, there's no responsibility? Intriguing. "It was a war in a true sense." The Arab League, Fatah, Hamas, IJ, et al, have officially declared war against Israel's existence. Where was NATO's declaration making that somehow a "war" and this not? "Israel being very notable..." And the UK very notable in its failure to fight Hizbullah, Hamas, Fatah and IJ. Have a point? "Israel is sending a child to die..." Ahh, so you admit the Pals have spent money on weapons rather than hospitals, that Israel spent massive sums on the youth, and yet blame Israel. Yup, you are still waffling to justify your hatred.

did I ever leave you for some other web ? NO. your boy.

dont treat me as laboratory animal. I think you are treating me that way. Atilla karagözoğlu

From the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/29/AR2007082902148.html): "A member of the Abu Ghazallah family who witnessed the airstrike said a rocket launcher was near the area where the children were playing. The relative, who declined to be named for fear of reprisal, said the launcher belonged to Islamic Jihad, an armed movement responsible for much of the rocket fire into Israel." IJ used the children as shields, relatives it and didn't prevent the kids from checking it out.

I am sorry for yesterday, okey. Look, you dont have to break my heart. this is me. accept me. I love you. Atilla Karagözoğlu

you are a liar. Not smart either; because had you been smart you'd have never shown an "interest in truth"...

try some education the 1922 mandate is alive today as it was in 1922!! that is israels legality as it is in syria and iraq lebanon and jordan etc !!

if not, publish all my posts, please. I think they were about 10 posts. AND STOP SHUTTING MY COMPUTER DOWN PLEASE. haaretz ! how much you love me :) Atilla Karagözoğlu

clikky and the mystery id of a jew hater !! how many of the road deaths were avoidable !! you cannot get your sicko mind from the fact of israel and its defence of its country . i again ask the question which you avoid totally do your jewish friens know of your hatred for them ??

are you confuse with me ? a) yes b) No c) you are not sure d) you are sure but not confuse e) where you from haaretz ? f) talk haaretz talk g) talking is good ğ) interesting word character, right ? Atilla Karagözoğlu

The conlict did not begin in 1967. Let us take that one or two steps further... 1) Had the Arab League accepted the Partition plan in 1948 ................ 2) Had the Arab armies (especially Jordanand Syria) not made war on Israel in 1967 ....... 3) Had the Arab League not turned down Israel's offer of land for true peace (after that war) ............ Had the last two conditions not existed, there would be no occupation.

Kassams are intentionally aimed at and intended to kill civilians and cause damage, panic etc (see: terrorism). There is no element of self defence in the these actions whatsoever. Israel targetting a launcher that can and many just have been used to launch these kassams is both retaliatory and defensive. The fact that the terrorists scuttle away like rodents and leave teir launchers exposed and the area open to children (well knowing that very soon there will be a military reaction) is nothing more than despicable. Don't een try to find equivalence.

Lakshmi, when Hamas says "1948 lands", they mean Israeli territory (within the Green Line). It does not depend on which speech they give, today or tomorrow. This is their term. You misunderstand and misinterpret what they say. Better try to search the internet for "1948 lands" and LEARN. I don't think you are too old to learn. When you misrepresent Hamas, you do a few things: 1. You show your own misunderstanding of their thinking. (VERY bad for an academic.) 2. You spread disinformation. 3. You make their ideology sound INCONSISTENT. People who accept what you say will no longer understand Hamas' basic approach, as you don't. If you are still in doubt, ASK HAMAS. They will explain it to you, since you are a free apologist for them and they might as well get some benefit from you. Unlike you, Hamas knows that 181 is legally dead. Of course, you can dream about its resurrection. Such a new/old plan can be re-passed by the UN or anybody. It is your right to push any plan you want. But better not put it in HAMAS' MOUTH. It is YOUR own project. I explained to you in the past why 181 is legally dead (which means not binding on anybody). You don't get it. You also habitually make serious errors in understanding legal matters, such as your terrible mistake about the GA powers #363, and previous errors I saw. I will suggest to you what I suggested to Jeff Northridge a few times: Better stay away from legal matters. You need sharper tools for that.

Why is the "three Nos" regarded as rhetoric and why are you not prepared to face it? Had Israel's offer of retrurn of all lands for a true and eternal peace been accepted by the Arab LEague, history of the region wuld have goe down a totally different path. You can't accept the facts that suit you while ignoring those that make you feel uncomfortable.

"how many children were killed on the roads in the uk" Absolutely none as a result of tank or warplane attack, Victor, you sicko.

He fails to mention that between 1948-1967 Gaza was used as a springboard by the Egyptian Fedayeen for continued attacks on Israeli civilians - literally nonstop. He mentions that Sharon left Gaza in a shambles but fails to mention that almost daily during the intifada there were suicide and other terror attacks eminating from Gaza into Israel. There are so many things he fails to say - obviously attempting to paint Israel black and the Gazans as lily white. Anyone with a brain, and some knowledge, can see through you and yur sepcious intentions. Anyone with a brain can see when the Gazans had it best in the past 60 years. Everyone also knows that had the Gazans seriously devoted their energies and resources to state building rather than to war and destroying Israel - it would have been in a different place - with Israel as its only friend.

To your first question I can only think of one reason and it is that the Royal family is partly German. The present king's mother was German and his wife is German as well. SO, the Germany-sympathies run in the family, which naturally influenced on the foreign politics those days, as the Swedish king had power, he no longer has. To the second question I reply that it was Finland, who opened the passage to Norway for the Germans, since Sweden declined in fear of Germany taking over the or-mines in Kiruna in the North not far from Norway. Finland did this in exchange of wheat and weapons, which in spite of requests to the Allies did not deliver them. The British delivered the planes first after the war was over!!! Yet declared war on Finland as she welcomed the help the Devil himself, the Nazi-Germany, had and could suply immediately!

1948-1967 - Egypt herded Palestinin refugees into the Gaza strip, refused them Egyptian citizenship, placed the population under a dusk-to-dawn curfew for 19 years, invested nothing to improve their lifev or provide employment, using it as a thorn and pawn against Israel (so much for human rights and caring for fellow Arabs). 1967-1990(more or less) - Gaza was open, Gazans flooded into Israel to seek work, Israelis created farming communities and provided jobs for thousands of Gazans, did most of their shopping in Gazan markets and cities, Gazans flourished from commerce, tourism. Since the Intifada and Israel's withdrawal - you all know the situation in Gaza: Andthen Ibrahim has the gall and dishonesty to claim with a straight face that "for 40 years, Israel made life hell for Gazans". What he does not say was that some of the land the Jews (nore: he fails to distinguish between Jews and Israelis - Hannah take note!) settled on orignially belonged to them prior to 1948. con't

sorry not to be part of yr mutual appreciation society... nick, just wondering how much concern you showing for buddhists in southern thailand what with the islamist insurgency. I understand, of course, that the muslims are murdering the buddhists because of israel and the wall/occupation/settlements etc vis a vis the pals...but considering 2000+ dead in last year or so (BBC World Service) which oddly is way more than the wretched pals...are you doing anything about it OR is your approach to sorting the s.thailand islamic insurgency to first deal with the israel/pal issue ? regards

Victoryou wrote--- "#400 nick falls at the first hurdle again" You never got out the gate.You are still stuck in the 1922 obstacle race. You wrote---"regard it as friendly advice !!" Advice from you victor is neither useful or friendly.

The apologies from the Israeli army sound as hollow as ever. Part of an honest apology would be to take every measure to prevent more children getting killed. But looking back at the last decades nothing has changed. The attitude of careless and criminal neglect dates back many decades. From the murder of dozens of innocent villagers in Kafr Qassem in 1956, who came home from a day's work in the fields not knowing their village was under curfew. To the contemptuous disregard for the lives of the inhabitants of Sabra and Shatila when the Israeli army allowed phalangist butchers into the camps knowing what could happen. To Qana in South Lebanon and dropping a one ton bomb on an appartment complex in Gaza. Just a few examples to describe the basic attitude of the Israeli army (although individual soldiers may object to this): by not caring about the lives of your civilians we instill fear and show ruthlessness. The purpose is to undermine the will of the Palestinians to resist.

"181 is alive & well(maybe not on this forum!)It has often been referred to in the GA.In 1999 in Geneva,the UN Commission on Human Rights passed a resolution calling for Palestinian self determination on the basis of the 1947 UN Partition Res.181." What the GA refers to is frequently of little relevance. Certainly that is not citeable as evidence that UN181 is pertinent today,nor is your reference to 1999 in Geneva. All of 8 years and one Intafada ago! Welcome to the 21stC!

"All Hamas / Jihad Islami have to do is stop launching rockets and nobody else will be killed." writes Moises. Wel, wouldn't that be nice if it were true - but Hamas has offered a truce, to have the answer from Israel "no, whatever you do we're going to go on killing you". Now the continued firing of Qassams is wrong in all sorts of ways: but Israel could stop it straight away by agreeing to a truce. They have decided not to: revenge is more important than protection of their people.

I think ...enough....three kids lost their lifes and prolly they r not the last ones who died thanx to adults ...I am reading ur commentary ...and I can find info bout all history of ..so called middle east ...enough ...three kids r dead ...can anybody change it? can ur comments return them to life?...where r pple who try to give new view on everything what is going on ?...where r pple who would be strong enough to talk bout mistakes on both sides of the conflict ?

this week !! your sickly and crass sentiments are misplaced !!

Dear Paul, You claim that the Muslims make use of children as combatants. Could you substantiate that in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I know some teenagers have taken up arms and have been shot dead by the IDF. This makes up some of the fatalities of the 900 children shot dead by the IDF. But it is a small minority. And yes, there have been incidents where insurgents have fired from behind demonstrators and stone throwers, but this hardly makes the case for a consistent and deliberate use of children by the inusrgents. Even if such a case can be made, it does not permit the IDF to shoot indiscriminately into crowds, or to fire in the general direction of any gunfire without identifying a target, thereby putting the lives of demonstrators and bystanders at risk. Unfortunately this is what happens on a regular basis, as a reading of the accounts of the deaths at the B?Tselem web site makes all too clear. The Occupation is a law enforcement scenario, not a war zone, and therefore the IDF has responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention to respond accordingly, that is to say, to fully respect the rights of Palestinian citizens. The IDF must treat ordinary Palestinians with the same care and attention as they would Israeli citizens. This treatment is not conditional on the good behaviour of the Palestinians. It is an obligation for Israel, especially when it claims to be a modern secular democracy. We expect our police forces to take the utmost caution when discharging their firearms in public places. We should expect at least the same level of commitment from the IDF. That they do not should be of great concern to you. Regards.

I am speaking about, took place hardly 3 weeks ago,not the one you are referring to(June 24,2007).If,as you say,they want the Unity Govt.and all that it entails, Haniyeh would obviously not be sabotaging his own effort by referring to all of israel.2.181 is alive & well(maybe not on this forum!)It has often been referred to in the GA.In 1999 in Geneva,the UN Commission on Human Rights passed a resolution calling for Palestinian self determination on the basis of the 1947 UN Partition Res.181. 3.Since Hamas is not going to consult an obscure talkbacker about their policies that particular suggestion from you is not relevant.Nor do I need to.Everywhere else people are talking about it.Maybe not in israel.Nor am I doing them any disservice by talking about it.

ferriman has cyclops view of the world the eye only sees israel !! occupation ? strangely when invaded by egypt and jordan no arab talked about occupation ? during the mandate no arabs talked about british occupation !! or even back to the ottomans !! NICK ITS TIME TO GET ABRAIN !! regard it as friendly advice !!

Dear Alice of Wonderland., Yes, I?ve heard of Wallenberg. His actions were humane and compassionate and he deserves all the accolades he receives. However, you have come obliquely at the charge Chris laid against the Swedes in WW2, that is, of supporting the Nazi war effort. Gerhard Weinberg, the US historian, is his book the World at Arms, wrote that the Swedes, though they also traded with the Allies during WW2, and would restrict their flow of exports to Nazi Germany when pressured and the Germans were losing, overall, preferred to deal with the Germans, whose war aims many Swedes sympathized with, rather than the Allies. This is a terrible indictment of Sweden. We must also remember that the Swedes allowed the Nazis to shift hundreds of thousands of troops through Sweden to attack Norway in April 1940. Please explain both these pro-Nazis acts, especially in the context of prolonging the war against Nazi Germany, and therefore increasing the number of Jews exterminated in the Holocaust. Regards.

Actually, instead of firing at the rocket launchers, the IDF should actually go in and arrest the people. That way they could interogate them and find out more information. Also, their actions would be targetted and not kill the innocent. Part of Israel's difficulty lies in the fact that a military force is used where a much more precise police force should be used. No children should get shot during an arrest operation. Responding to terrorists with the blow of a military which generate collateral damage is not the best way to proceed. Had Israel never killed innocent people and restricted the killings to the guilty, you wouldn't have the Intifada. Had Israel introduced Justice into their relationship with Palestinians, you wouldn't even have a conflict.

Dear Chris, Well done for standing up and criticizing the disgraceful Israeli rules of engagement. The IDF acts with impunity and it is supported in its war crimes by many of the apologists here, who would rather attack you than ever condemn the IDF for their slaughter of innocents. Regards.

Dear Jeff, You have said on several posts that I recall, and again here, that the IDF operates very strict rules of engagement. That is not reflected in the fatality rates of unarmed Palestinians. The deaths of nearly 3,000 innocent men, women and children since September 2000, in what is essentially a law enforcement scenario, is indicative of a Israeli mind-set that gives not a fig about the deaths of ordinary Palestinians. In addition, the Israeli Human Rights organization, B?Tselem, is scathing of the ?open fire? policy of the IDF, which they point out contravenes the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949. They say that the absence of appropriate rules and conduct is deliberate and is responsible for the deaths of so many innocents. B?Tselem does not support your contention that the IDF operates strict rules of engagement. Other evidence of the criminality of the Israeli shoot-to-kill policy of innocents came about through the deaths of two UK citizens, Tom Hurndall and James Miller in 2003. These deaths were fully investigated by a UK coroner?s court. Their verdict was that these two men, whilst going about their lawful business, were deliberately shot dead by the IDF, that is, their deaths were murder. The overwhelming body of evidence in the case pointed to systematic abuses of the Israelis own rules of engagement, and that these breaches were condoned by senior IDF commanders. The court, and Sir Gerald Kaufman, a former British Foreign Secretary, have called for the extradition of these commanders to face war crimes charges. Again, this evidence does not match your claims that the IDF operates legal proper rules of engagement, quite the contrary. What was also clear from the case was the general promiscuity of Israeli rules of engagement. These not only killed Tom and James, and Ian Hook, shot dead in his UN office by Israeli gun fire, but also hundreds if not thousands of innocent Palestinians as well. It is clear that the IDF uses liberal rules of engagement to intimidate any one who opposes their brutal occupation. Jeff, I would be interested in any evidence you could provide that, contrary to the evidence I have presented here, the IDF operates rigid rules of engagement. Perhaps you could provide for example some details of the document carried by IDF soldiers which explains to soldiers under what conditions they can and cannot open fire. It would of course be an act of gross culpability for the IDF not to have issued such a card to its soldiers. These soldiers are operating in essentially a civilian environment, not a war zone, so law enforcement principles must be applied. We expect our police forces to take the utmost caution when discharging their firearms in public places. We should expect at least the same level of commitment from the IDF. That they do not should be of great concern to you. Unfortunately, like many senior IDF officers, you appear to condone the promiscuous shooting of civilians. Regards.

Israel left Gaza two years ago. Qassams have not stopped raining on Israel. The blame for the IDF strikes on the Strip is on the Gazans themselves. The IDF obligation is to protect the citizens of Israel.

So sorry to learn that you listened to your parents and did not come to Israel to experience the Kibbutz-life at its best! You just might have met a nice boy, an Israeli-Arab or a Pal, marry and today be a happy and satisfied mother of ten beautiful big-eyed children with long eye-lashes and dark curly hair. Amidst all the inimical people in the Land of Israel, there is one thing that is flourishing betw. them and it is love-life! Kibbutzes especially are fruitful "spawning" places for love. Oh, dear Dutch, you've missed out a big time! Sad to hear that! No wonder you're so "uptight" - My sympathies.

Dear Cipora, A few days ago, on another post, you accused me of lying when I stated that nearly 900 children have been shot dead or killed at the hands of the IDF. Did you check out B?Tselem to verify the veracity of the facts I presented? Here is the address so you can fast track to the site, if you haven?t already visited it. http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp We can now add 5 more deaths of innocents to the fatality of minors. Are you ever going to demand that the IDF adhere to rules of engagement commensurate with the claims of Israel to be a modern secular democracy? Regards.

Dear Victor, It is ironic that you talk about cause and effect. If there was no occupation, then there would be no cause for the Palestinian resistance. Occupation is illegal, and can never be justified by anyone calling themselves a democrat. Resistance however, is always legitimate. Regards. NB. I see that in many of your response you frequently resort to ad hominem attacks. This is unfortunate as it suggests a lack of self-control or a paucity of arguments.

Sweden saved Jewish lives....as many as they possibly could; ALL the Danish-Jews and thousands of Hungarian Jews and other Jews. Ever heard of Wallenberg?

We saw and discussed articles and videos here, also one by the pal TV. The Israelis did not kill that family. It was more like one of those palywood productions.

Thank you for trying to conduct a thoughtful debate on several topics in these pages, and for carefully considering what other people say. If we all learned to listen --- oh, even G-d Himself implores : SHEMA YISRAEL

One of the most baleful I've read for quite some time. The slaughter of children has that effect.

I am glad to see that we do not disagree on everything, though: RE:Palestine is necessary if ONLY because of the persecution of Palestinians by Israel since 1967 (please do not accuse me of changing your words, I just pasted, like last time). You are forgetting that there was a before 1967. The arabs deliberately created the problem by refusing Israel, attacking it, losing land and refusing to integrate into their countries. And true the situation of palestinians in many brotherly country resembles a lot the situation of jews in central Europe until WWII (and all Europe in the middle ages). So yes I agree that a Palestine is needed, and in my opinion should include jordan which was part of palestine until the colonial meddling of Britain in 1921. And I agree to disagree with you on who bears the most responsibility for the continuation of the state of war.

Naive me. I just expected everyone to be adults. I guess this just proves my point that it is a waste of time to debate certain people. Thanks!

Holy crap! Now we're royally screwed! As you know we have been pretty much banking on the support of some sad, anonymous twat that goes by Dutch to wrap this one up. Damn it, I'll call Abas and the Quartet and let them know that it's all off. Oh well, you take care Yossi I'm off to bash my neighbor Peace through victory

What about the looney clown holding (by the skin of his teeth) the position of President of the USA? What about his censored American Service Record that has been brought to light by Michael Moore? What about the approx. 4 000 dead American Service personnel? Where is Bush's love and concern for the 'cannon fodder' he is encouraging to fight his illegal war? By the way Ben, how is your support for returned American soldiers progressing?

sorry, this is irrelevant and a little personal, and if you don't want to share this, you don't have to... but do you teach at the Wheatley school, Old Westbury, Ny?

Steve, the post you quote was not written by me. You may have noticed in these threads "ALERT FALSE...." There are several impersonators who "fake" the posts of pro-Palestinian posters using their names. You will see a "Fake Silvienne" (who wrote the post you quoted) also a "Fake Hannah", "Fake Lakshmi" and "Fake Johnboy", "Fake Indrajara"...these are all pro-Palestinian psoters. Don't be misled by them. What they do is post pro-zionism posts to cause confusion. Regards, Silvienne

"Have Aboriginals been dehumanised" I am an aboriginal New Zealander, living on Aboriginal land. your point is?

your "cause and effect" argument is worthy if you acknowledge that Israeli belligerance has likewise resulted in Israeli casualties. I accept that the death of these Palestinian children is in this instance a consequence of the militants actions as well as Israels shoot first, confirm later policy. "You Can`t Handle the Truth" The fallacy of your argument is that during the 2nd Lebanon war, 163 Israelis were killed by Hezbollah. 119 of these casualties were IDF soldiers. Would you argue that Hezbollahs military forces have superior morality to the IDF? Over 4200 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli soldiers or civillians since October 2000. Of this number, 1383 were known to be combatants. That you will casually accept the thousands of Palestinian casualties where these victims were not active combatants as a trivial statitic is an indication of your reluctance to acknowledge Palestinian suffering.

Howdy Ibrahim; You said, "The Gaza Strip is the most densely crowded place on earth." That is false. Both Singapore (a sovereign state which has more land area than the Gaza Strip) and Gibralter (an overseas territory of the U.K. which has less land area than the GS) have higher population densities than the GS. Furthermore, the GDP per capita for Singapore and Gibralter is over $24,000/yr. and the GDP per capita for the Gaza Strip is less than $1,500/yr. Now why is that? The Gaza Strip has a coastline at the eastern-end of the Mediterranian Sea and the only reason why the Gazans can't duplicate the success of Singapore and Gibralter is because of this stupid Jihad to destroy the "Zionist entity" which has been brought to you all by Hamas. There's nothing like the Palestinians shooting themselves in the foot once again to make me incredulous.

Good for the Zionist Federation. Put him in the closet with Carter.

Silvienne, Why do you waste your time debating people who are so consumed with hate that they don't even realize that it has already eatin them up inside. "Why do Palestinian parents let their children go and play at the qassam launchers sites? They know full well the IDF will strike. Do Palestinian parents have a heart?" This is certainly not the place to ask this question. Besides I think you can pretty much figure out from the vile comments posted here what the answer would be. If you are truely interested in what is happening in Gaza quit listening to the Israel cheerleaders posting here. I suggest you visit the website "Raising Yousuf, Unplugged: diary of a Palestinian mother" http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

Yossi to Dutch: "Have you tried Yoga"? Pointless, Yossi, next to useless. I work in a pyschiatric facility, and Yoga classes are held there for patients. Nothing has any effect except medication!

Howdy Lakshmi; Except for some internal UN housekeeping matters (including the setting up of UN "subsidiary organs"), the resolutions of the UN General Assembly are nonbinding and unenforceable to member states and this impotency extends to those "organs" which are unilaterally established by the UNGA unless they are also sanctioned by the UN Security Council. It is simply not legally possible for the UNGA to set up a court which has juristiction over the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. The ICTY was set up by the UNSC and not by the UNGA. You cannot bypass the Security Council in this matter, but I'll give you a D- for effort. My dear, if Israel had wanted to commit genocide against the Palestinians, then there would be one-hell-of-a-lot-more dead Palestinians than there are now. Your claim of genocide just doesn't wash given the ongoing Palestinian Jihad to destroy the State of Israel. Casualties on both sides are to be expected, but so far, genocide it isn't.

Who were you posting to here? You don't quote a post number or a name or subject...? Regards, Silvienne

You are saying it was the Palestinians who killed almost every member of a Palestinian family on the Gaza beach? With what? No Kassam rockets were found on that beach. AK47s? No, an explosion killed those people, as the video shows the hole in the sand.

Thank you for your kind words about my posts. There is a "fake zionist Silvienne" posting to these threads now, but I think you'll recognise that she/he/it is not me. Of course what you say about Gaza is correct. It is one of the most densely populated places in the world, and that, together with its small size, makes it impossible for Palestinian children to have any sort of normal childhood. If there is any doubt about the target, as there was in this case, the IDF should not fire. Now they admit the three dead children were doing nothing wrong, but it too late. I saw the "youtube" videos of the killing of almost every member of a Palestinian family on the beach, and the one poor little girl who survived. Every place in Gaza is a potential killing ground for Palestinian children. I know the pro-Israeli posters will blame the parents of the children, but that is a simplistic response which helps no-one. Regards, Silvienne

Few weeks ago a kassam rocket fired toward israel, landed in the back yard of a Palestian house, in Beit Hanun: three children were instantly killed. Palestinan parents should become organize to prevent this problem

"From several thousand feet up - your radar picks up the rockets electronics/guidance systems/radar etc. UNFORTUNATELY - it can`t discern who is NEAR the potential threat." You're kidding right? Qasaams have no electronics or guidance systems. They are glorified bottle rockets. Spare us all the worn out excuses and justification for excessive force by your righteous IDF.

But this wasn't from the air....?

When we get this all cleared up would you mind heading straight for the Darfur issue so that mess can be resolved? BTW, one of the biggest complaints I have heard is Pals not being allowed to call themselves Jordanians. At least those from the West Bank. They ended up becoming US citizens and now have a safe home, America. Everyone should have that much.

Sure did miss out on the Hate Cartoons that Hamas is indoctrinating the kids with... Just ask, I'll send you the links, or you can easily google them yourself...Quite inspiring, 4 year olds, barely out of diapers, being trained for the terrorists of tomorrow... Besides that, you missed out on keeping your Human Shield promise...

Try keep your promise so you can help teach one and all that an obligation must be met... People that live in racist houses shouldn't throw stones...You just keep on ignoring your aborigines, any reason???

Sir, I enjoy your posts even though they are often laced with an extreme lack of understanding. The Gaza Strip is the most densely crowded place on earth...I always wondered how Jews felt, knowing this fact, while 5000 Jews controled 25% of Gaza for the last 40 years. Israel has not offered peace "so many times"...Spare me the "three No's" rhetoric. The clock started ticking in 1988...Israel has been squirming ever since....They simply want to keep control of the land. Barak's offer at Camp David was NON-STARTER....If you don't believe me, then please post me the DETAILS of his Camp David Offer. Take Care.

It would be refreshing to see Hamas & Fatah admit that they're actually the ones doing the rocketing instead of blaming it on groups "not under their control"... Notice how the relatives of the children blamed both sides for their deaths...Faulting the terrorists for using their vicinity to launch the rockets...

"The other day Haniyeh said in one of those Friday sermons that abbas has no right to negotiate anything and Hamas will not accept anything less than the 1948 lands.I interpret this to mean the Partition Line of Res.181.It makes sense because they get 44% of the land." - Lakshmi I was trying to explain to Lakshmi TIME AND AGAIN, that no Palestinian group demands the Partition line (UNGA Resolution 181, 1947). They either say they will destroy Israel or they are unclear about the borders they seek. Hamas recently agreed to Abbas negotiating for the 1967 lines, but after they were put on a boycott, they naturally would fall back to their Charter position of destroying Israel. Lakshmi keeps imagining that Hamas wants the partition line, which according to her are the "1948 lands" they are demanding now. Take a look at the following report: "Underlining the Hamas rejection of the existence of Israel, Haniyeh addressed his remarks to Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and "the 1948 lands," a reference to Israel, created in that year." - Associated Press (June 24, 2007) This makes even more sense. They want ALL 100% of mandatory Palestine. Resolution 181 has been LEGALLY DEAD for many years. Lakshmi, if you want to suggest to Hamas that they adopt it, why not. But, unless Hamas accepts your resurrection idea, please don't present your own fantasies as Hamas'. You are only causing them damage.

Much the same can be said of those Palestinians who celebrate with candies and firearms when other deaths occur. And no Palestinian cries out with indignation when Jews are bombed. The road runs both ways and you know it. Therefore, instead of such sweeping generalizations one would think you would prefer solutions so the children of both sides are safe and can sleep nights.

All children in Gaza know rocket launchers are. They are called "sacred weapons". Entire city walls are covered with shahid posters; setting up kassam rockts. In Beit Hanun, parents and children know the gangs the fire these rockets; some are cousins or third cousins they are all related. They all know what is going on around them...?are they irresponsable parents? During gun battles between factions you see dozens of children running toward battle ground. Is part of the culture of "Gun Envy". Somebody, said: ?what if a rocket kills three israeli children? - using moral relativity- well, that is exactly the purpose of firing a kassan rocket into israel; but when the IDF responds the attack, they target the rocket launcher's site.

"ZF cancels Haaretz journalist" "Zionist Federation of Great Britain has cancelled a scheduled appearance by Haaretz columnist Danny Rubinstein, after he reportedly likened Israel to apartheid South Africa during a UN conference in Brussels"

not by driving somebody else from the home!That way lies disaster and so it is going to be. Re: the '67 border which israel would have happily accepted back then,well, that was israel's idea is it not? Take another big chunk also,so that Palestinians would end up with 22% not 44 % ,which was the Partition settlement.Peace certainly,but PEACE WITH JUSTICE!

It is refreshing to see the IDF promptly and frankly own up to what happened.

The 'Doctor' thesis gets proven with a vengeance. Note in particular #24, which virtually justifies the slaughter of innocent children. Untermenschen, right? #28's not bad either -- but in a different way. A spectacularly ignorant misuse of the expression 'crocodile tears.' Who do they let into medical school these days?

Assembly can found an International Criminal Tribunal(ITP)in order to prosecute israeli war criminals,both military & civilian,including & especially israeli political leaders.The GA can set this up by a majority vote pursuant to its powers to establish "subsidiary organs"under UN Charter art.22.It can be organised along the same lines as the ICT for former Yugoslavia(ICTY),already established by the Security Council.Re: genocide it's not the thousands that israel has slaughtered in the last 7 years,but since 1948.And with intent to destroy a people,which would qualify for 'genocide.'