IDF suspends 7 troops who refused to take part in Hebron evacuation

In the meantime, Vannunu is outside of his cell, Pollard is still in it...Treatment isn't at all equal...Gen. Mordecai Gur, now deceased was quite prominent...He returned the Old City of Jerusalem to Israel..Here's a bit on it...You can Google him, there's quite a lot about him.. To make it easy on you, here it is, courtesy of Wikipedia: "n 1966 Gur was appointed as the commander of the Paratroopers' Reserves' Brigade, which he led during the Six-Day War (1967). Gur and his troops were part of the assault force which wrested Jerusalem from the Jordanians, and which were the first to visit the Western Wall (ha-Kotel ha-Maaravi) and the Temple Mount (Har ha-Bait). The pictures of paratroopers crying at the Kotel and Gur's audio recording in the communication networks "הר הבית בידינו" ("The Temple Mount is in our hands!") became one of the most touching symbols of this war to the Israeli public

...I forgot about the Three Post Allotment again...regarding Persian Kitty (what a name!) I don't see how anyone can deny that Ahmadinejad threatens to destroy Israel, even I've read multiple times that he wants to do that. All I meant about Vanunu was that Steve offered to show you a picture to prove he knew him, and I offered to let him send it to me as you don't want to give him your email address. That was all, not that he's admirable. But if he belongs on the end of a traitor's rope, so does Pollard too. You have a picture of yourself with Menachem Begin..I know of him, but not of Mordechai Gur...that is impressive. Of course, I wish I knew what the circumstances of the photo of you and him were, but I know better than to ask! Sorry I forgot the T.P.A. Regards

that I don't fib or embellish..Persian Kitty tried several times to deceive me about ahMADinejad's threats to destroy Israel..I gave her proof (from my uusual neutral sources) that her statement weren't factual..She fought tooth and nail, to no avail...They she left the boards in a huff because she felt offended by some the going's on and rejection of her failed propaganda... I have a photo with Menachem Begin, whom a value lot more than Vannunu, the traitor.. My wife and I had dinner with Gen. Mordechai Gur, that was impressive...Vannunu would impress me hanging from the traitors rope..

I don't want to offend you, but I can't respond every time you get itchy fingers on your keyboard.. Altima is EXCELLENT, better than any other car I've ever had...Minimum of maintenance, I wish I would be in that shape when I get as old as that in car years...Pep Boys is a chain of auto supply & maintenance shops, they're listed on the stock exchange.. People of every nationality have those who reject their heritage...Benedict Arnold did it in the U.S., Haw Haw in England, Petain in France, Quisling, etc... National Front or it's ilk are against anyone or anybody whose religious requirements and colors don't meet their improvement...You can look the up, Try white Racists or some such title...Be aware, I once logged onto one of those websites, didn't give the proper answers, they grabbed control of my computer with a program they had, the only way I was able to disconnect and free myself from their grip on my CPU was to switch my machine off. .Those Nazi's in Israel were gentiles that falsely presented themselves as Jews?When police investigated the found out who they actually were?One was a Jew, a rather sick one, If I may say so

Don't you think it is sort of amusing-in a small way-when posters complain that they don't get enough space to write in and others get much more?? I was reading a thread just now..who on earth is this "Persian Kitty"? and she complains you have more space to write than she does! Heehee it's easy when you know how! Regarding Steve Birtweich(?)says he has a photo of him and Vanunu you can see if you send him your email..should I ask him to send it to me then I'll let you know I saw it? He gave me his email address..I was going to post to this "Persian Kitty" asking where she thought she got off insulting you then I thought you'd probably tell me to mind my own business...

Well, thank goodness for that...Altima and Chevy Mini-Vans are both good...but isn't 125,000 a lot of miles on the Altima? It must be a very well built car..what is a Pep Boys? Is that a garage or bodyshop? Something else I wanted to ask you...in another thread there is an article about there being neo-Nazis in Israel; several have just been arrested, the article says, kosher Jews are capable of acting like Nazis. I could hardly believe this article could be correct, although I know there are neo-Nazis in Germany, but in Israel??! To start with, how can a Jew be a Nazi? Doesn't a Nazi have to be Aryan? I never heard of "white supremecy groups" until I came here, though in England there is a lefty political party called the National Front which is against all Pakistani immigration into England...they have been in existence since the 70s, but its only now their message seems relevant..look at those Pakistani doctors who were involved in the recent terrorism in Englad, the ingrates..

Thank you for the explanation. And in fact, that is what happens in Talkbacks all the time!

Nissan Altima '98 with over 125,000 miles on it... Chevy Venture Mini-Van with about 78,000. New or old cars, I trust my mechanic with anything on wheels...He hasn't wronged me yet.. Best of all, when I get the state mandatory car inspections, he doesn't try and stici it to me with all sorts of repairs added to the bill.... When we first moved to Pennsylvania, I didn't know where to go,..Went to a Pep Boys for the inspection...They should have been wering a mask and two pistol, what bandits!!! Never went there again, never will...

In Latin, the words "ad hominem" mean "to the man (man in the sense of person - Latin has two words for man, one meaning human being and the other meaning male person). When used in English, it refers to a style of argument in which one attacks the person rather than what the person is saying.

This is a really important question..to me at least..you've never mentioned it before, and now I have to ask: what sort of car is it? Because if you say..no!..that it is an SUV, I am going to be so disappointed, and surely shall have a fit, I hate them so much...anti-social gas-guzzling environmental-hazardous....that they are! Hoping against hope that you will not say....

The thing is, we've got so caught up in the side issue of your residency that I've but forgotten the original discussion. Could we go back to it and begin again? Also,um...please explain what "ad hominem" means? Thanks!

It could be the address that realism mentioned was in another Talkback thread at some previous time...that's a possibility, sometimes, like I do myself, posters put in their town and state and country, sometimes only one of the three...I'll let you know if I see it, though... Just a minute!! What about what commonly known as the "Three Post Allotment"?? Regards

I don't believe he has disproven any of my "falsehoods"; as you note, he tends to indulge in ad hominem attacks and invective. However, you are an impartial observer, and I leave it to you to decide which of us is more correct in his evaluation.

Do you remember the post from realism where he had stated that he indicated his address.. I've reviewed each and every post that came to my attention in this string, I can't find any of his that contained that info as part of the address...Possibly I overlooked it, if you find it let me know, referencing the post number.. Thanks

I read his last post to you...By this time, you should know better...Unlike him, I don't evade...He's so-called "Logic" has been disproven many times...His only recourse is to evade, using any excuse....I never avoided him..In his mind, disproving his falsehoods are an avoidance... You see, you're imploring him gave no results, the same way his postings didn't contain any facts, just fantasies...

That put re-manufactured parts into the car, charging you for new...Knowing full well the replacement parts will have you returning in swift order...Luckily, I have a mechanic that I've been using for the past 14 years, I can leave my car, walk away, come back, it's been properly tuned or fixed...On replacement parts, it's guaranteed for three years, parts & labor...Best of all, he doesn't charge dealer prices...He does mainly Taxi work. A taxi driver friend of mine introduced me to them, and it was one of the best favors anyone ever did to me...Excluding my wifes acceptance of my marriage proposal...That's another story...

As you have probably noticed, ben jabo is not given to rigorous reasoning and likes to go into all kinds of irrelevancies. The logic and accuracy of my comments are relevant; their geographical origin is not. I don't choose to give him another avenue in which to avoid what makes a difference.

"These are the same people that say "The check is in the Mail" The same people that say, "No problem" as your car falls to pieces on the bodyshop floor...

realism won't give it...That the reason I won't respond to him and told him so... He knows he's been caught like a rat in a trap...Every time he opens his mouth, he puts his foot into it... Silvienne, by this time you must have realized that anyone uses any of the following or variation thereof are obvious frauds. "Truth, Realism, Realistic, American, True American, New Yorker, Trust Me"..These are the same people that say "The check is in the Mail"

Excuse me for getting in here, but why not give your location again to Ben Jabo, (as you said you already have once) so your debate can actually move forward!

I did give you my location in the past, but you continued to fixate on that and ignore what is significant - what I say rather than where I come from.

The only point I can see is what's at the top of your head...Since you refuse to give a location, you aren't worth the time or effort...

So you finally admit you can't answer the points I raise? About time!

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902926.html I don't want to "scatter it around the Internet", as you once accused me of doing, but please read this! I've just seen it and it is so very wonderful, it made me so happy. I will be making a credit card donation to this organization tomorrow morning from work! This is a true act of humanity which these people are doing, as one poster said, a true mitzvah, like, a true gift? Regards

Syria can buy ready made missiles with Nukes mounted, ready for action...After Russia broke up, loads of material was left scattered throught the former Russia...They all hungry for the buck and are willing to sell to anyone that has the money to buy it... Let me put it this way, you don't have to buy the cake mix and bake the cake, cake is available ready to take out... Syria was building a plant to enhance her ability to attack...While she's waiting she can buy some stuff ready made...Iran can acquire nukes, she want to make them herself to improve her stature in the eyes of the world and as a direct threat to Israel...

I didn't bother to read your post...You're not worth the time or effort and don't have the foggiest idea of what you're talking about... From this point all, you'll be ignored as you so richly deserve...

"It was common SS tactics that whenever there was a guerrilla attack, hundreds of civilians were killed in retaliation. You have learned well" When you refer to "SS", do you mean, from WW2? Regards

"Rest assured, Israel realized the plant was a direct threat and she excised it..." Okay then, why not talk about it? Why not say what Israel had done, rather than keeping quiet, staying mum, saying nothing, etc etc? It would have seemed more likely that Israel would want to declare to the world what she had done, taking out a nuclear facility, by way of warning other countries in ME... Anyway, isn't Iran's nuclear program more of a threat, being further along?

1. Israel didn't taken Damascus because it couldn't afford to. The most expensive possible operations are street fighting in a city, and Israel couldn't afford the hundreds of lives it would have lost. Even if it took the city, it would have had to give it up anyway because there is no way the IDF could maintain control of the conquered city and territory. Remember what happened in Lebanon when Israel tried to occupy? 2. It was common SS tactics that whenever there was a guerrilla attack, hundreds of civilians were killed in retaliation. You have learned well.

IN 1967, Israel was about 15 miles from Damascus and could easily have captured it... In the event Israel were to find that Syria supplied the nukes to Lebanon, Syria would have been complicit in the attack from Lebaon...She would be an accessory, before, during and after the fact... Nothing "forces" me to say anything...I'm just responding to your outstanding ignorance... If the enemy fires from the midst of civilian population and cities, then the response will be to the same area...I really don't give a hoot where you live or come from...I'ts obvious you don't know what you're talking about... The enemy directs it's fire into the general Israeli population, Israel is certainly entitled to reciprocate without you permission.. After all, you're just another windbag...

my beliefs also are...However, since the site was scouted out and photos confirmed the existence of a nuclear plant, there was only reason for it being there...To create nuclear energy directed to the making of bombs.. I'll tell you ow Israel found out...Israel has usually excellent intelligence...Information is bought and paid for...I personally refer to it as "Rent An Arab"...Rest assured, Israel realized the plant was a direct threat and she excised it...

Ben, I just don't believe that Syria had any nuclear capabilities, do you, really? If they did, we'd have heard about it before, surely? Just like we're always hearing about Iran's trying to acquire a nuke. Regards

I suppose by your standards (no disproportionate response) it would be acceptable to nuke Damascus if a qassam is fired from Lebanon (they're all bleeding wogs, anyway). You are one sick puppy. As to where I reside, (a) it doesn't matter, and (b) not saying forces you to respond to what I say instead of getting off on where I come from.

repsonse...When someone starts a war, he can fully expect that the person he offended will reply with all the might he has on hand...If he can't take the punishment, he shouldn't have started it...An outsider, such as yourself, has far less information than a person who's actually been involved...You're merely a back seat driver...It's like going to a ball game, you're sitting in the stands, wearing your teams colors, cheering the team on...BUT, you never actually got on to the field to play in the game...Where you reside, is quite material, if you're hiding it, is beyond me...Nobody is going to come and look for you, you're not worth it...Merely a kibbitzer not a participant.. In case you're still out of touch with reality, hear today's news about the IAF strike into Syria.... Disproportionate response, you bet!!! A working nuke site is a disproportionate threat to Israel... the U.S. Nuked Japan "DISPROPORTIONATELY", she & England carpet bombed Berlin & Dresden, the same way

Ahmadinejad in Iran is not insane enough to use nukes against Israel. He may be crazy, but wouldn't be insane enough to bring such retaliation upon his own country.

1. When you "know" he's done you wrong, do you ever think of independent verification? If not, you are as dangerous as the average paranoid, who "knows" who is threatening him. 2. I spoke of nuking his home as a term for a completely disproportionate response. Evidently you don't believe there is any such thing as a disproportionate response (which is what makes people like you so dangerous). 3. You're now narrowing down your position. As it came out before, you have the right to attack anyone if you feel he has attacked you or will attack you. 4. Where I write from has no bearing on the accuracy of my comments. Granting the state of international communications, and the attention the world press gives to Israel, it is entirely likely an outsider will have just as much information (and very likely a more balanced account) than you do.

It's not IF I "Believe" he's done me wrong, it's when I know he's done me wrong...I haven't mentioned nukes, though ahMADinejad did, his intent to use them against Israel as soon as he has them operational...I didn't fire the first shot, he did...If you'll refer to the following "neutral" sources, you'll get somewhat of an idea of how most it came about.. GOOGLE "TIMLINES ISRAEL ARAB CONFLICT", Wikipedia, Answers.com & Concise Brittanica all have the information... I have no conjecture about the plotting, it's gone beyond that, numerous attacks have taken place...Unlike youself, you're is writing from some anonymous location, I've been there, done that...You really can't call yourself "realism" if you haven't experienced any of it..."supposition" would be more fitting for your handle...Those daily Kassam firings aren't in my head, they're hard facts on the ground... If you'll stop playing Ostrich and remove your head from the hole in the ground, you might find out what it's about.

As I understand you, if someone has done you a wrong (or you believe he has done you a wrong), you have the right to nuke his home, regardless of how slight the wrong done (or perceived to have been done). In your saying that he caused you to have that attitude, you totally discount the possibility that you went into the situation with the attitude, and he had nothing to do with it. I can't accept your thesis that because someone else, somewhere else, at another time, did bad things to Jews, you can do anything you want to anyone if you believe he might be plotting wrong (even if it is all in your head).

What I believe is that if he's done me wrong once, It's up to me to prevent him from doing it a second time...It's called self defense... Remember the old adage:... "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"... I don't turn the other cheek, because that too will get slapped.. That especially holds true if he's shot at me... If you wish to mention moral restraits, mention it to the other guy who caused me to take this attitude... If you want to be a punching bag, that's your choice, not mine...

Do you really believe that once someone else does wrong, that relieves you of all moral constraints and anything you do is legitimate?

You said the orthodox were only a minute part of the IDF...for goodness sake, I wouldn't want them to be shot! That's the whole thing, you see; I don't want anyone there to get shot. Too much shooting goes on in the ME anyway...the very air must echo to the sound of bullets wizzing by...

And see many examples of homicide bombers being caught, bus explosions and their aftermath, plus view videos of Pizza Parlors that were destroyed and the blood on the streets... Whatever Camillo has to say doesn't impress me in the least...It's his usual drivel, written under one of psuedonyms..

Conscientious Objectors don't serve PERIOD... These soldiers served, refusing to act against fellow Jews...You have no idea how large or small a component the Orthodox are of the IDF, nor do I... They'll probably get 28 days in a Military prison...Don't worry, they won't get shot...

For once, we are entirely in agreement. I have posted almost the exact same thing that you did. If soldiers fail to obey orders, there will be no army left. The army would soon fall into chaos and disintegrate.

"So where was this moral judgement - this feeling of moral conscience you claim these soldiers displayed, as they stood idly by, doing nothing as these `settler`s commit daily acts of humilitation, intimidation, assault, harrasment and emotional bullying of the defenceless Palestinian families hiding in their caged dwellings, with the front doors daubed with the Star of David" With reference to the paragraph above written by Don Camillo, I have seen many "youtube" videos of exactly what Don Camillo is describing. Just go to "youtube" and Search for "settler violence" and you'll many human-rights videos of this.

Conscientious Objectors in England often went to prison, I don't know about here in America. Although the IDF orthodox soldiers are only a very small part of the IDF, remember the IDF isn't enormous...every little bit can make a difference. What will the consequences be for these IDF who refused? We'll wait and see.

When they refused the orders they knew what the resulsts would be..A Mishpat Tzai...They refused on their own Achrayut...

Let me express myself in a very few words that you can clearly understand.. "If you don't like it, lump it"

EVERY SOLDIER must follow orders-or there IS no army. I'm not SAYING who's right or wromg on the issue. SOLDIERS FOLLOW ORDERS. It IS, that simple.This is true for EVERY army. The army is not a debate club. political party, or the Knesset. When in the army YOU OBEY ORDERS. period.

Shall be a general and decide whats the best for Israel. If this will be a rule, The Palestinians will eat you all for breakfast, perhaps with a laafa with satar. Think of that when you say bravo.

They're a very minute part of the IDF...They felt that in good conscience they couldn't carry out the orders...If the soldiers in the German army had rebelled against what we consider illegal orders, you wouldn't have had the Second World War and the deaths of some 30 millions...America had Conscientious Objectors in almost all it's wars...They objected and accepted the consequences..

So now only Haredi chayalim have consciences? I find that hard to believe, in fact I don't think anyone could stomach the moral implication of what you have just posted. Because what you say is that these soldiers felt feelings of morals - of right and wrong. So where was this moral judgement - this feeling of moral conscience you claim these soldiers displayed, as they stood idly by, doing nothing as these 'settler's commit daily acts of humilitation, intimidation, assault, harrasment and emotional bullying of the defenceless Palestinian families hiding in their caged dwellings, with the front doors daubed with the Star of David? Why do your soldiers of conscience not see fit to exercise moral choice of right and wrong, as their honourable Judaic religion demands of them, when they saw the way the Avraham Avinu settlers of Avraham Avinu behave?

Stop destroyiing the IDF. Enlistment is down, motiivation is down, and the IDF top brass doesn't realize that using the IDF as a police force to expell Jews from their land is extremely damaging to the IDF. You don't need a commission of inquiry to realize what's wrong here!

israeli soldiers that refused to go to the west bank and commit terror attacks on palestinian civilians were also imprisoned. SO these guys should be arrested too, but no, they are suspended...great. Israel extreme right fascist gov't.

"These Jews have elected NOT follow orders that are contrary to their conscience" What if every Jew in the IDF has a different idea of conscience? And it they are all allowed to follow their own consciences? There would soon be no IDF left, because any army's existence depends upon its obeying orders.

The disaster is you and Israelis with your mentality

Everyone will agree with the Nuremberg principle that soldiers should not follow orders which involve war crimes. However, please explain how any army can operate if each soldier has the right to decide which orders are politically incorrect and therefore invalid.

i definitely wouldn't be interested in "taking a bullet" ment for him let alone being forced into a situation where to my religious beliefs would comprimise them by being given what i would believe are illegal orders.if two jews want to fight-its none of my buisness-if an enemy wants to murder my fellow jews it is my buisness-if olmert wants to fight with fellow jews he should do it himself and stop hiding behind the idf and misusing them

The only battle he seems to be able to win is against his own people. He has NO ideology beyond self-promotion. Moshe Feiglin or Majale Wahaba would both make better PMs.

For Israel to have peace, the settlers in the WB will have to be forcibly removed. Since the IDF can not (or will not) do it, there will be no peace, period. Israel has gotten itself into a real mess that has no happy ending that I can see. Oh well, the Arabs will solve the settler problem in a few short years. It will be messy, but it will bring peace to the region. I suspect that most Israelis would rather not have peace imposed the way the Arabs will do it, but no one in Israel is willing or capable of dealing with the settler problem, so it will have to be the Arabs that do it. If Israelis wanted a future they would take these guys out and shoot them for desertion and dereliction of duty.

The Nazi's blindly followed all orders... These Jews have elected NOT follow orders that are contrary to their conscience...They knew in advance that they would have to answer for their actions...Jews aren't Arabs, we're not supposed to raise out hands to other Jews...They didn't, more power to them...

Good! If those on the left don't follow orders they should be dismissed. If those on the right don't follow orders they should also be dismissed. The army doesn't give recommendations, it gives orders. I am sure there will be a lot more refuseniks when Israel removes the settlements on the West Bank. The longer they stay in place, the greater the disaster.

THIS IS THE LEFTIST VISION of flooding the country to counter the religious people of israel. not the first time in history.

The purpose of the Israel Defense Forces is to defend Jews not to throw them out of their homes to give it to the enemy.

Expulsion not evacuation. Jewish residents of Judea & Samaria & Gush Katif not settlers. Jews living on Jewish owned property contested by "ultra" Israeli leftists not Israelis squatting illegally in a Palestinian wholesale market. And of course as usual - Arab Terrorists not Palestinian militants.

Blame it on G-d. He made a covenant with Avraham Avinu "To thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Mizrayim to the great river, the river Perat. Some Jews take this seriously.

Participating in ethnic cleansing of Jewish residents of Judea & Samaria is just as ignominious an action as doing the same to Arab residents. Something the left simply chooses to ignore.

The soldiers did the correct action when they refused to cooperate in removing the settlers.The IDF is to protect the country.Security of the nation is the rule of the IDF Now that the politicians give orders instead of life saving security the soldiers did the right action.Good for them.Hope that all future soldiers also refuse political orders.

The role of the IDF is to protect Jews- not to ethnically cleanse them.