IDF rejects as 'lie' new report linking shelling, Gaza beach deaths

YAAKOV IS NOW IN THE DENIAL STAGE.

I have no comments on Jenin and the death toll there. However, I doubt that Elvis was part of any cover-up or that he swooped down from anywhere. But I do suspect that Elvis may have planted a mine on Gaza Beach and then detonated it remotely. Or it is quite possible that Elvis fired the Qassam rocket which killed five members of that family. The IDF has been tight-lipped about any alleged Elvis involvement.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/4/Evacuation%20of%20bodies%20in%20Jenin-%20Decision%20of%20the%20Sup Burial according to religious custom with repsect, but no opportunity for rumors. I for 100% believe my Palestinian friends who have been treathened by Hamas when they wanted to obtain for Israeli citizenship and I 100% absolutely believe them when they told me that Hamas has in the past mutulated bodies in order to fingerpoint to Israel. Those bodies in Jenin were not only stored in fridge trucks during the waiting of the trial, they were talen out immediately as caution for mutilation. But forget about. Hamas is a sweet little girl, Jonathan.

Forget about it. Forget about it that I work with Arab childeren in East Jerusalem and that I hear these stories from the Palestinians at first hand. Brave Palestinians who are not afraid of calling the spade the spade. Just keep on believing your own story.

If "Most others will suspect the IDF made a mistake and are trying to cover it up" it is not like Sarajevo then. In Sarajevo Serbs did not make any mistake. They just tried to kill as many civilians as possible. Just like Arab terrorists try to kill as many jewish children as possible and it is like Sarajevo.

Why should we pray for the Pal refugees only? Lets pray for all of them including those victims of Arab crimes including Jews an Sudaneese christians. But Pals deserved a special prayers. They are unique, nobody else betrayed and singled out by their own Arab brothers more than Pals. So lets pray for them, may God open their eyes.

"Mark, in Jenin the IDF put the Palestinian dead as soon as possible in a fridge truck to preserve the bodies." - Tulip And then Elvis swept down in his flying saucer and took them away to an unmarked mass grave in Iraq. Got it.

Yonatan, now you tell us that the girl did not need any additional help in the Israeli hospital. Previously you told us the Palestinian medics did not treat her serious wounds. Which is it?

"I didn`t say the Palestinians had taken out the shrapnel; the hospital physicians did. They also said that it was unnecessary, and did nothing to help the girl. What should one conclude from that?" - Yoram The first aid applied by the Palestinian medics was done well.

One has to admire the Palestinians. They have set themselves the objective of obliterating Israel. To that end, they have been waging a total war against the hated Jews. They wage this war ruthlessly and they observe no boundaries, they commit terrorism against innocent civilians at every opportunity. No one is exempt, they target and murder men women and children indiscriminately. They lob their rockets at Israeli towns daily but when Israel responds, they use propaganda to try and stop the response so that they can continue their attacks unimpeded. They take no prisoners but they rely on stooges and leftist ideologues to tie Israel's hands and stop them responding to daily Palestinian attacks.

Hi, You seem to have forgotten to add posts to the last forum (by Harel). Or perhaps you are adding them but they don't show up on the website. Please take a look. Thanks.

The morgue was full and the Israelis wanted to burry the dead in masss graves, a petition held up that plan and meanwhile the Israelis kept the dead bodies in refrigerated trucks. The request for mass burials was denied. YOU MUST BE A VERY SICK LITTLE GIRL TO COME UP WITH THIS STORY.

"Initial investigation conducted by IAF finds that no civilians were spotted in vicinity of vehicle carrying terror cell in Gaza; 'we still don?t know whether civilians were hurt as result of explosion in car or for other reasons,' senior officer explains" My guess is "other reasons" as soon as they can come up with them. Child killers per excellent.

Mark, in Jenin the IDF put the Palestinian dead as soon as possible in a fridge truck to preserve the bodies. This to avoid Hamas terrorists from mutulating the bodies of their own brethern in order to be able to fingerpoint to Israel. This is how low you can go.

It's like when the Serbs were shelling Sarajevo. Every so often a shell would kill large numbers of civlians and the Serbs would deny it was their shell and claim the Bosniaks had done it themselves. If you fire hundreds of artillery shells near civilians, the chances are you will kill some of them eventually. Whatever the truth of this incident, the world has already made its judgement. Pro-Israelis will believe the IDF. Most others will suspect the IDF made a mistake and are trying to cover it up.

Well Samed if you are talking about a terrorist country wy dont you take a good look at the ARAB COUNTRY'S IN THE MIDDLE EAST...Syria,Iran,Iraq,Lebanon,Jordan,Egypt,Saudia Arabia, Ect.... Are all terrorist states and from those countrys come all the terrorist so get your facts strait.The palestinans teach their "kids" how to kill Jews and westerners now thats a TERRORIST State. Now israel on the other hand gives the palestinans food and work something that all the other arab countrys are not willing to do. So the next time you try calling Israel a terrorist country, make your research and then make the accusation.If you can. A country that tells their kids that if they kill a Jew or an american gets direct access to heaven is really DISTURBING..

Jake, based on inquiries to HRW regarding the words attributed to Mark Garlesco in the JPost today, it is going to issue a clarifying statement that will point out that the Garlasco quote was taken out of context. The quote reads: "We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting. However, Garlasco states that he prefaced that comment by saying that if only the IDF evidence were considered, then it would appear that the cause of the blast was an unexploded IDF shell. As the same paragraph continues to point out, "...there were still, Garlasco said, a number of pieces of evidence that the IDF commission did not take into consideration." Thus, Garlasco and HRW did not do any backstepping. They were merely saying that IDF evidence leads to one possible conclusion, while other evidence it did not take into consideration points in another direction.

"It`s like 9/11. Just when you think you`ve heard that last of it; just when, finally, you think the last drop has been squeezed from the story, there Gaza beach is again, rearing its ugly head" So, do you think 9/11 was a controled demolition by the Bush government or a Mossad plot?

as AN ISRAELI YAAKOV SYOU SHOULD GO HOME AND STAND FOR THE KNESSET.YOU WILL BECOME PRIME MINISTER IN NO TIME AS IN 58 YEASR NO ONE HAS GOT THE RIGHT ANSWERS YET !

the corrosive influence holly is the multitudes like you who hate !!! 0.001% of the entire world is usrael but it raises 255 of the news . it raises 100% of the rteality of equal treatment for israel on the same basis as the usa. incredible aholes like you do not relate to the usa and its war record since 1945 korea, vietnam , iraq ,afghanistan ,somalia , lebanon cuba, panama , shall i go on or does it bore you and the other aholes who write from the usa condemning israel . israel was the base for theusa during the cold war and the only country it could rely upon. tthe corrosion is in your hatred for jews only !!

Personally i would like to hear a full out mea culpa from you, for trying to attack Jews and the Jewish religion constantly. I won't be satisfied until you stop shunkin'and jivin'.

"I find it difficult to believe that Hamas or some other gang freaks would deliberatly kill a whole Palestinian familly." - Danite No one is saying Hamas did it deliberately. Its plausible that Hamas laid mines on the beach as a trap for Israeli naval commandos. It's also possible that this was an unexploded shell that went off or that it was fired by IDF guns. The jury is still out in my view. However, I tend to believe Israel more than Hamas or even so called human rights groups (i.e. arab propaganda groups).

I've been watching this guy for a long time. Yossi Cronenberg is Mustafa K from Umm'l fahm

BG is picking on you to make up for being on the "wrong" side (i.e. Israel) in his argument with O. Reed. That was a comical exchange! Anyway, the old man is feeling guilty; he needs to restore his leftist status.

1) This an Israeli on-line news and information site which invites feedback. So, anyone who posts regularly could be said to have a definite interest in Israel, which may or may not be "virulent and corrosive." 2) A number of us believe that the very existence of Israel produces a "virulent and corrosive" influence on much of the world. 3) I am particularly interested in Israel, because, out of all proportion to the influence of all other countries, in my opinion, Israel has by far the most "virulent and corrosive" influence upon the social, economic and foreign policy of my own country, the U.S.

"Another possibility: The girl is brought to the hospital. The docs think an Israeli hospital will give better treatment, but moving people across the border is always iffy. They administer FIRST AID, remove sharpnel to avoid infection. By then Israel OK`s admitta" - BG "I didn`t say the Palestinians had taken out the shrapnel; the hospital physicians did. They also said that it was unnecessary, and did nothing to help the girl." - Yonatan Yonatan, my explanation ("Another Possibility") is completely in accord with the Ichilov people. In particular I state the Gaza doctors took out the sharpnel. The sharpnel in any case has to be taken out. Ichilov would never say otherwise. It may not have been the first thing one would do if you have real treatment available, but ultimately sharpnel is taken out. In our case, it seems they did what they could (unless you believe your conspiracy theory which I thought I debunked).

Thank you Dr. Timothy K for your penny book anaysis, I am an Israeli citizen. I take you are not. Relate to the cause and not the symptom. Any doctor, if he is a good diagnostician, knows that. You apparently do not. Physician, heal thyself.

I think Israel is making the fool out of itself.If the govt says they didnt do it fine, then who did?? If their investigation was so complete as to exonnerate them totaly , I would assume their was enough info to at least infer who did it.I have no doubt Israel wouldnt hesitate to cast aspersions if their was any merit to it.I find it difficult to believe that Hamas or some other gang freaks would deliberatly kill a whole Palestinian familly, the consequences are to serious and they have no need to , as all that dumb shelling was bound to give them all they needed for justification.I am not convinced at all.That does not make me a fool, but wise.

The Russian Jewish swimming champion. As for you Mr.Cronenberg,I am a bit suspicious...

"Although the deaths of those on Gaza beach are a tragedy for their families, in the larger scheme of things, it does not rise to the level of importance that Haaretz gives it." I am not altogether certain that Haaretz wants to keep the story alive. It keeps popping up in other 'talk-back' venues. It's like 9/11. Just when you think you've heard that last of it; just when, finally, you think the last drop has been squeezed from the story, there Gaza beach is again, rearing its ugly head. Personally, I want to hear a full-out mea culpa from the IDF, and won't be satisfied until they stop shukin' and jivin.'

Hi Yaakov--Did it occur to you that you have a virulent and corrosive obsession with Israel? It seems that you are ill and need medical attention. Check it out. Dr. T.K.

...the soccer player and the uproar from the arab world??

Tony This story has become too stale for anyone's digestion,and we cannot stomach it any further.It does not achieve anything,and only helps the Israeli bashers who derive great pleasure each time. Quite right,it should have been over and done with already. I don't know what purpose Ha'aretz derives from the repetition of this.It makes one just go on to new pastures--which I said a few days ago on one of the forums. One quick glance was enough for me,and I left pronto...

"Logic isn`t your [BG] strong suit I`d say." O. Reed Indeed, Mr. Reed, you can't argue with a man who jealously guards his superficial cyberworld status as a "Prime Minister." The old quack once argued to me the absurdity that the Likud "evolved" in accordance with Darwin's Theory into Kadima but "they don't understand why they evolved." You know, BG is a world renowned "scientist," in addition to being a great Israeli PM, Talmudic scholar, and a poet to boot!

Having met with Klifi of the IDF for 3 hours yesterday, MArc Garlasco and other representatives are beginning to change their original opinions in favor of the 'unexploded ordinance' theory. Doctors at Ichilov Hospital who operated on a Palestinian injured at the scene are also questioning the Palestinian story. Also, another piece of shrapnel is being analyzed by the IDF and in an undependent lab. The plot thickens.

"Then how did Hamas get an Israeli 155mm shell?" - susanna/shushanah They purchased it from the famous Sgt. Bilko along with the invisible Philadelphia Experiment Artillery piece to fire it from. The tough and sneaky part was finding enough vanishing cream in Gaza to coat the entire crew and the truck they used to pull it across the border. . . . Is this helping the conspiracy theorists any?

"Although the deaths of those on Gaza beach are a tragedy for their families, in the larger scheme of things, it does not rise to the level of importance that Haaretz gives it." - Cipora Julianna Kohn Of course, you have so many other important things to consider and comment on. What are the deaths of seven mere Arabs to you? One wonders why you come here, unless it is because you are a member of what poster #82 called the "IEF (Israeli Excuse Force)."

So you deny the validity of the Ichilov Hospital report? Do you think that the doctors made that up? I didn't say the Palestinians had taken out the shrapnel; the hospital physicians did. They also said that it was unnecessary, and did nothing to help the girl. What should one conclude from that?

Hello Peter, It was probably not diplomatic on my side to use the term "apologist" so openly. But that doesn't mean the term is empty. You can tell an apologist most easily by looking at a range of issues and his/her response to them. On any particular issue the person might have a good reason to hold the opinion he/she has, but statistics gives a more accurate picture. Sometimes you can tell an apologist from a single response. If the excuse he/she uses is so weak, this can be a good sign. If one says in response to a pogrom in Hebron: The Arabs would have committed much worse crimes, that's an apologistic response. (Morally, Jews do not wish to be compared to the Arabs but to the West.)

Yaakov, your self hating bias is disturbing and sadly will never change. You constantly hold up israel to a set of standards that you completley disreguard on the arab side. Your one sided nonsesnse should stop if you want anyone to take you seriously

The hate for Israel is not new, for it has been like a little mustard seed, it crows since a long time.

nothing would ever be enough. Nothing. Israel demands that the world judge it only by its standards and likewise demands that it be able to judge the rest of the world also only by its standards. That has worn thin, very thin indeed.

One has to wonder, who had more to gain from the shelling and killing of the Palastinians on the beach-was it Israel or Hamas?Answer being Hamas.Then how did Hamas get an Israeli 155mm shell?I assume when the Palastinians shell Israel with qassam rockets, they don't all explode-as the Israeli shells don't all explode-then both Israel and the Palistinians have each others shells at their disposal to plant at will to implicate each other.If Israel had wanted to kill Palastinians civilians on a beach outing, I would have thought they would have had the sense to use qassam rockets, implicating an errant palastinian shelling.On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Hamas to plant an Israeli shell to kill Palastinians on a beach outing bringing wrath down on Israel to further their own interests-only people who use children as suicide bombers can be legitamately accused of such a crime against their own people.

Your grandiose comment has no basis in reality. Haaretz, for one, knows no distinction between journalism, which is supposed to report facts, and editorials, which state an opinion. Furthermore, Haaretz tends to obsess only about a few issues which are important to them, politically, and with the aim to get as many posters as possible, thereby increasing their influence. Often important news for Israel are not reported, and what is reported is reported from a biased perspective. It is imperative to report uncomfortable news, provided that such reporting is backed up by several, well qualified sources. Speculation cannot take the place of honest reporting. The Gaza beach incident has been reported on repeatedly, without any new or significant developments. Haaretz has a tendancy toward the sensational. Although the deaths of those on Gaza beach are a tragedy for their families, in the larger scheme of things, it does not rise to the level of importance that Haaretz gives it.

Gaby That is what I said in my addendum,if you have read it that is.They messed up the evidence,and that is why when the Israeli services tried to investigate,the PALis refused.Funny ha?of course they did not want any interference because the truth would have been revealed. Sorry about my first post to you,just a misunderstanding that I corrected in my addendum. Go to it and read.My typographical errors notwithstanding.I do tend to rush...

The truth is, the question of whose bomb killed the family on the beach is irrelevent. The pals are shooting rockets indiscriminately at israel FROM A POPULATED AREA! Therefore they bear full responsibility for any death or injury by return fire.

Firstly, Israel will not allow independent investigations for the simple reason that most so called `independent investigations` may carry `a whole lot of love for Israel`to begin with. The conclusions and the verdict of those investigations had similarities to dictatorship trials (without self accusations under torture) on numerous occasions in the past. Secondly, whether it is the shell or hidden mine, what realistic difference does it make. Other than for Israeli bashers that will drag everyone into every little detail, every single day, and on every single post, understandably why, this is the tragic accident either way during the conflict, when the Pals are clear provocateurs in the main issue of why the shells are flying. I am surprised at Israel for not stating as such, and leave it at that, period. Unless I do not know all the details `behind the curtains`. Like Abbas calling for the end of Qassams Probably will be calling and calling, unless they start falling on his head.

"shrapnel fragments had been removed from the girl`s body by THE PALESTINIANS" - Yonatan I wonder, Yonatan, if living so near to Qalqilya does not enhance your "conspiracy theory" tendencies. Let's see what it would take to sustain your theory: The girl is injured, an ambulance is called and takes her to the local hospital. In order for the doctors to remove the sharpnel so nobody would know the real source, either Hamas was VERY quick to come up with this scheme (within minutes), or they planned it all along, even planting a mine which would kill their people. Not only that, they had to get the doctors to know about it in advance. A bit too dangerous when you conspire, especially with doctors who tend to be humanists. Another possibility: The girl is brought to the hospital. The docs think an Israeli hospital will give better treatment, but moving people across the border is always iffy. They administer FIRST AID, remove sharpnel to avoid infection. By then Israel OK's admitta

I have known IDF generals since Motti Gur and I can tell you that everytime any IDF general opens his mouth, he's lying through his teeth. Shy? He wants to make himself look good, so he can get a cozy Knesset seat with big salary and perks or the presidency of a forever money-losing Israel owned defense company. If an IDF general, who was a Lebanon loser, told the truth they would run him out of Israel. These losers need to be stripped of their pensions and imprisoned for their stupidity in committing war crimes daily.

If you have to go back to one article in October of 2002 to find them condemning something the arabs are doing, you are going back over 3 years too far. That is what you dont realize. If they mention it once over three years ago, it doesnt give them full range to bash purely and completely one sided on israel for the rest of the time. They cannot expect to be taken seriously and anyone who DOES take them seriously shares the same bias they do

They have come out now and again with a condemnation just to make sure a statement like yours can be proven false. So, the better way to express your feeling, and more accurate actually is, does HRW speak out in public on each terrorist attack and investigate them as they do each reprisal. Does HRW have 30 links on there site describing the culture of suicide of the arabs and the terrorist attacks, videos of these attacks, interviews with the victims? They do not, it's mentioned in passing, a token article here and there.

What I wanted to say is that Pals removed all the shrapnel from the girls body they could (in spite of a danger to her life) because they were afraid of increminating evidence against them. Some apparently was left in other victims, enough to show that it was Pal explosives.

Study. Find out how the UN High Commission on Refugees defines as refugee: - Life and strong history in one place - forced out - Their children don't, they're citizens of the new location. Then look at how UNWRA defines a refugee: - Lived in the area from 1946 until 1948, TWO YEARS - Any descendents - And, BTW, they told the UN they did nothing to verify that people registering as refugees met the first requirement, or even left their own homes. Tens of millions of refugees between 1945 and 1950 were absorbed by new countries around the world. 600,000 of the 800,000 Jews from Arab lands were absorbed by the tiny land of Israel. 472,000 refugees (by report of the UN Mediator for Palestine, a man assassinated for being pro-Arab) haven't been accepted by 600,000,000 Arabs over a period of almost 60 years. They've been kept in camps and denied equal rights by their fellow Arabs. Those are the Arab refugees for whom I pray. I wish them better luck in their dealings with Muslims.

Let`s pray for the Palestin Refugees and all the other victim of Israels war crimes.

Instead of crying bias go back to the site I refrred you to on Human Rights Watch site: October 2002, Erased from memory. See what they say about suicide bombing. Your earlier statement was false. Go read.

Gaby My deduction precisely.I have put out my coclusions even before you put out your response.Isn't it odd that everytime they commit an atrocity there they are with Cameramen at the Ready.Someone yesterday said: Well,of course they would have a camera to take pictures of the children.Okay,well and good. But let us remember the Al Dura incident: I sow the video,and there is nothing to suggest to it being an acurate interpretation of the TRUTH! Then I sow another video,well photographed where a man is supposedly being shot,there,the cameraman is telling him to lie down and pretend that he has been shot and dead.Then,lo and behold,he gets up and the charade is the usual good ole' propaganda excercise as usual.Therefore,I am not surprised in the slightest at what you are telling us here.I have known about their "Modus Operandi" for ages.But some people here are so anti-Israel,ditto our Services that nothing will convince them otherwise...

Human rights watch is the most left wing, arab supporting human rights organizaition on earth repeatedly yelling at israel while never mentioning bombs rockets and terrorism coming fomr the arab side. Is THAT your indepdent researcher?

It appears that the only people who have "facts" in their hands are the Osbornes, Steve Murrays, Linthwaites,hollingsworths, the yeled tov mi yerushalayim, and you two have become apologists along with the others here on talkback. I'd say welcome to the club, but know you aren't happy to be lumped in with others who also feel the term doesn't apply. What the heck, goy,arab, jew, it doesn't really matter, as long as you aren't jumping on to the bandwagon with both feet to "prove" Israel's fault in any given situation, you're just an apologist. It's enough to keep your head spinning isn't it, being called so many things by so many different people. One thing for certain, there is no shortage of racists appearing here on talk-back and people responding to them can be called apologists, and while true in the exact sense of the word, it's false in the implied connotation.

"is there some Israeli connection we should know about you too Mark? It is as if you just don`t understand or are unwilling to learn.". Oh Reed Is there some indication for anti-Israel bias here? Let's go thru some adult logic : 1. Assume the PA is confident about its charge. 2. Israeli officials declare publicly they are certain, and laboratory tests show, that Israeli version is right. 3. Abbas (but not Osborne) thinks: now I got them. Let me catch the liars; they cannot agree to an investigation which will expose them, so let us force it on them. 4. Abbas would then see Annan attempt as a waste of time and go to the UNGA or SC. There is a Talmudic saying, Osborne: "Sinah mekalkelet et ha-shurah" (Hate removes one from the bounds of reason.)

Gaby What are you trying to say?I have visited Ynet,and was not illuminated any differently or with further information,to exnonorate the IDf,or vice,versa.If you know something more,please enlighten us here. Which brings to mind,the evidence was corrupted and became useless for pathological investigation...

Shalom, Danite, You're making a fool of yourself! See http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265297,00.html as well as my #134 and #137

And after IDF shelling, the Paliwood produced a movie at the beach, not far from where the shelling took place.

Barry Their children to put them at harms way? What you have told that Dumkoff Murray,will not register no matter what the explanations may be. What I say is this: When the PAlis attack and murder our people it is always "Malice Aforethought".When our military responds,is in defence,with great care to avoid civilian casualties.Even then,can anyone expect no collateral casualties. I am not comparing this as a result to the beach incident by the way. By that I mean,they were shelling the terrorist and trying to protect our towns from the Katyushas and Qassams.Certainly not to kill innocent civilians.If one thinks logically they would realise that there will be no"Kudos" or jubilation on the part of our own,on hearing (that perhaps one of their shells may have caused it). It seems very likely that the PAL leaders were exremely careless and are such novices at their job. Do we not see how they fire their amunition withguns blazing and thus kill their own into the bargain.

Shimon, if you take a look at all of my postings on this subject for the past days and weeks, you would see one thing. I have never suggested that either the version of the IDF or the Palestinian authorities should be taken as "the truth". I believe that this is the only appropriate position to take until an independent enquiry helps us to understand what actually happened on the beach. Sadly, it is now too late for such an enquiry to help us know what happened in Jenin. But, I will not simply listen to the version of events put forward by the Israeli government, the same government that prevented an independent enquiry over Jenin. I think it is extremely dangerous if we accept accounts given to us solely on the basis that the authors of those accounts are fellow Jews. The path of fascism and totalitarianism that way lies...

Are you all children? Or is there some Israeli connection we should know about you too Mark? It is as if you just don't understand or are unwilling to learn. There are ways to go about getting an investigation from the UN, one is for both parties to ask the SG for one, another is for The UNGA to send such request to the SC and the last is for a SC members to raise the issue. WHERE did you all go to school? Ask for your money back, because all you really are doing from morning to night Mark is to quote the Wikipedia "Shrapnel got it's name from" we don't forget that one. Hillarious!!!!

"Without a shred of evidence, there is no "fact" to accept." - Mark Lincoln See my #70 in the Talkback to the article "Only the Israeli side tells the truth". I made a similar posting to this Talkback as well, but the moderator isn't posting it. Out of shame, I guess.

For Hamas to have done this and then to have it exposed would be the total disaster for that organisation.They are willing to engage in behavior that will knowingly bring Israeli retaliation of which they can exploit of, but they need Israel to create the opportunity for them.They would never do it on their own, the consequences are simply to serious for them to be caught in the act.Remember last time one of their rockets blew up at one of their hate parades?? They claimed it was Israel, then they looked like total fools when the truth quickly came out? Regards

..surprises me any more. In the face of almost indisputable evidence that it was an Israeli 155mm artillery shell, the Jewish apologists, try desperately to turn the corner on this sordid affair by resorting to the old tried and tested counter-charge approach, viz. 'You hate us.' 'You're allegations against the IDF, and your attempts to inculpate them, are merely expressions of hatred for the Jews in general.' The old victimization routine immediately kicks in.

Abbas refrained from going any further as he did not want hamas and the gang freaks to have anymore fuel to feed the fires.He figured the only way to pull all back from the brink was to let it go.he is a smart man, too bad he is so powerless.He is one of the few arab leaders who has the good of his people at heart, and Israel should not miss this opportunity to at least get an agreement in principle with him.Regards

"Haahertz has become a sick joke" - Cipora Julianna Kohn Ha'aretz provides the most true reflection of Israeli society of all its competitors. The truth, like medical treatment, often hurts, but, in the end, it heals the body - in Ha'aretz's case, the spirit.

If the IDF investigation was so complete then why is their no suggestion of where that explosive came from, surely if one can determine it was not Israeli one would an laternative to offer? Israel does its self a disservice by this type of nonsense, now our enemies have been given once again a propoganda victory on a silver platter.Better to have admitted it and moved on,what kind of nonsensical thinking is going on over at the Defense ministry.I hope Peretz will stop taking adbvice from the Likud Neanderthal remnants and start using his own head for a change.

Before sending her to Israel for treatment. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265297,00.html

There was no Ostensible proof from “Human Rights Watch”. All they presented was a wider window in which time this explosion may have occurred and when did Shlomo Eldar get a degree in metallurgical analysis or ballistic forensics? I am qualified to make a judgment based on observation of the blast radius and can conclusively state that this was not the result of a ballistic military artillery shell, period.

To them the totality of "evidence" indicates an "unexploded" shell being set off while the victims were nearby (because of upper torso injury, not by walking on a mine, but either one set off by an electronic setter or another projection of the shell into the area - but not one of the 6 shells fired by the IDF unit). The IDF must have made a convincing case. For you to suggest that the IDF would mine the area to hit civilians indicates some prejudice in your attitude. Note, it was Hamas who cleared the area of evidence. Those who had motive - those opposed to convergence and those trying to embarrass this Israeli government (they are on both sides of the fence).

"18:09 Palestinian girl wounded in Gaza beach blast regains consciousness (Israel Radio) " I heard the whole news broadcast (twice), and Ha'aretz is hiding facts. According to the newscast, physicians at the Ichilov Hospital in Tel-Aviv (center of the Zionist gangs), where the girl is being treated, say that shrapnel fragments had been removed from the girl's body by THE PALESTINIANS before she was sent to Israel for treatment. NO ATTEMPT WAS MADE TO TREAT HER SERIOUS WOUNDS. From this I conclude that the Palestinians didn't want anyone to know what the real source of the shrapnel was, i.e., from Palestinian materiel and not from an Israeli 155 mm artillery shell. This is a double cover-up: One by the Palestinians. And another one by Ha'aretz, whose reporters, editorialists and op-ed writers come out looking very bad in light of the new findings.

Very interesting. On the very day when the Israelis are known to have been shelling Gaza (June9), "unexploded Israeli ordinance" goes off, killing 5 members of a Palestinian family. Are they saying that this "unexploded ordinance," lying dormant in the sand of Gaza beach suddenly exploded, and that that explosion just happened to coincide with the IDF shelling barrage? When was this "unexploded ordinance" fired? Had it been nestled in the sand since the 80s, perhaps? Since the 90's? Months, days, hours or minutes before the IDF commenced its murderous artillery barrage? Please illumine me.

"They have and the Secretary General is waiting for Israel to play ball, if they don`t then the Palestinians will have to take it to either the SC or UNGA. What`s so hard to understand about this?" - Osborn Reed What is hard to understand is that you can't note that the Palestinians did not take the issue to a venue at the UN which could initiate and investigation. Instead they took it to the SG, which is good publicity, but not going to cause an investigation. " Israel is stalling and in my opinion isn`t going to allow for any investigation." - Osborne Reed I think Olmert was prudent.

We do not know for certain yet if the IDF killed these people or not - although the avalanche of IDF denials and contradictory statements are not making them look too good. However, suppose they did and, as you say, it must then have been an accident, why not admit it ? Tragic, but such things happen. Or do you have such a low opinion of IDF that you think that they lack the courage to admit a mistake ?

JOsh, you ever think for a second that you are so rapped up in finding the bad in people that you trust arab accounts over Jewish ones JUST to make sure you can still blame Jews?? Thats what it seems to me. As for Jenin, the number of dead WAS grossly over estimated, and as you wrote, the arabs kept shooting and provoking the IDF to take down more terrorists. If you want to look at how many of the dead WERE terrorists i think you would stop talking.

"Hamas did it and the peeps on talkback can not accept this fact." - KJJ Without a shred of evidence, there is no "fact" to accept.

"Did they [PA] ask the UN to investigate? No, they only asked the UN Secretary General to investigate." - BG "the Secretary General is waiting for Israel to play ball, if they don`t then the Palestinians will have to take it to either the SC or UNGA. What`s so hard to understand about this? Israel is stalling and in my opinion isn`t going to allow for any investigation." - O. Reed Osborne, Israel is not "stalling". It said NO on Sunday. What is so hard to understand? So if the Pals are not already pressing the SC or GA, what does it mean to you? I suggested a reason. There can be more than one explanation, but like a baby, the one you favor is "really" the "only" one possible. "He says to her he wants it easy he expects her to be easy he wants it to be easy but she says no,she says no i don't want to She says no,she says no, i don't want to he expects it too,e-easy"

The Israeli response has been very confused, often contradictory, and far from satisfying. I can not explain why the Palestinian Authority has not requested an investigation. Though the one into the Jenin (massecre) turned a propaganda issue into a propaganda fiasco. (not that the died-in-the-wool Israel haters noticed) "Israel is certainly the prime suspect for the Gaza beach tragedy. The timing of the explosion (during bombardment of a nearby site), and its refusal to cooperate with an international investigation,rightly makes Israel appear responsible. " - Ben Gurion I think the decision to not allow an international investigation was prudent.

You are entirely too credulous about the Kurdi account. Have you ever seen the aerial photographs of the town of Jenin from various heights where a single block of houses is shown as being razed to the ground. The Kurdi account makes it sound as if hundreds of houses were ploughed under by his bulldozer. The two pieces of evidence don't gibe well together.

Mendel As above,and a reply to you as to whether they intended to kill those innocent people:Reply MOST DEFINITELY IS "NO"!! Our military does not target children,and what is more,they do their damnest to avoid civilian casualties to their own detriment. I hope some people here will get it once and for all.Vain hope though,knowing how anti-Israel and biased they are,my hopes are for those people to change and be more balanced are: nil,zilch,nada,nada with those that make up their minds by just reading the Arabists newspapers,The PaLI media who never stop telling lies.They have become adept at it,and no wonder some apologists swallow it "hook line and sinker". On another note.Why do some people here deviate from the subject at hand,and jump on to another unrelated and ancient episode?Ode to say the least...

The beach was mined by Hamas using IED's with electrical firing mechanism. Hamas feared the beach being used for commando landing The IED main punch was provided by a recovered unexploded 155mm shell to be detonated by the IED. Such devices are commonly used in Iraq and are detonated using key fobs, or cell phones. Problem for Hamas is that they are clumsy and reckless and the device detonated itself against their own.

do you really think it bothers a single ISRAELI what you think or feel towards us? IT DOESN'T!!!

If you had, you would also have read, for example, "Even a pregnant woman - shoot her without mercy, if she has a terrorist behind her. This is the way I thought in Jenin. I answered to no one." AND ""For three days, I just destroyed and destroyed. The whole area. Any house that they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some more. They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance." Nice stuff, huh? And all encouraged and enabled by the IDF. Then, after it was all over, the same IDF prevented independent monitors from coming in. So that now, people like you can write BS about how it was all a big hoax. The truth is we don't know what the truth is. Just as we may never know the truth about what happened on that beach in Gaza, in large part because so many Jews have so much invested in seeing themselves only as victims and can never accept that they are capable of horrors just as grave as those committed by "the Arabs".

"I am waiting to see if the Pals will go to the UN" They have and the Secretary General is waiting for Israel to play ball, if they don't then the Palestinians will have to take it to either the SC or UNGA. What's so hard to understand about this? Israel is stalling and in my opinion isn't going to allow for any investigation.

Stephen Whether it was an IDF shell,an accident if at all,just stop calling it a "Massacre" absurd when you think of the hundreds butchered by the PAlis on our innocent civilians,with a calculating regularity. Remember,this is a War! and the navy was there shelling the terrorists to stop them firing their Katyushas by the day into Sderot. Also,why is it that the PAlis,have not accepted the Israeli investigation to ascertain what really happened.You can bang your head against the wall as much as you like.It doesn't change the true facts on the ground. That aside,bear in mind that neither the IDF or the Navy derive pleasure from killing innocent civilians.This is the "Modus Operandi" of the PALs,and you damn well know it. Just stop it already.We have exhausted this subject(Thanks to dear ole' Haaretz who have nothing better to do). Time has come to give it a rest Ha'aretz,if you don't mind...

"It has everything to do with an intent and the nature of the fight. Murder is a premeditated (planned) killing with an intent against defenless people." Ed, I would say that your words above apply exactly as an analysis of the motivations of "Kurdi Bear" on board his D-9. Shame you skipped class for 101 Logic so often.

Now listen to Mendel: the IDF says it does shelling between 4.30pm and 4.48pm and they say that the explosion happened between 4.57pm and 5.10pm. A single event happened "between" 4.57 and 5.10 - wait while Mendel counts out the beans - this means that there is what is called a "margin of error" of 13 minutes in the IDF version. But then only 9 minutes between when the IDF say they stopped shelling and the explosion. Sorry IDF. Even in your own version this cannot be considered as reliable enough. But that is not what matters. What matters is if (and we will say "if") the IDF killed the people on the beach, the real question is did they intentd to kill those people ? That is the real question.

Jewish...you sure have a massive preoccupation with The Jewish State and the Jews ...(Israeli,Diaspora and Orange) mmmhhhh interestinggggg.........

"this would mean they do not think it was that IDF artillery fire - but an unexploded shell already on the beach. " Which means that it is an IDF shell on the beach as confirmed by Garlascu. So if the IDF placed the shell on the beach and it slaughters 8 civilians then the IDF is responsible for that massacre. Regardless of how you try to wriggle out of it. So you agree that it was IDF terrorism that murdered that family?

Yaakov finds it inconveniant to his self `Jewish~ morals... Frantzen and Murray find it doesn`t fit in with their David Duke world view... ....but the investigation shows beyond any doubt...Palestinians massacred this poor family just as they massacred the Family during a passover seder in a Hotel in Netanyah... They are extremely adept at the massacre thing.....

and no matter on how many talkbacks you repeat that the IDF did it (and you have been a busy beaver from Stormfront to David Duke.com and other revolting talkbacks)the facts remain..Hamas massacred their own...and thats disgusting.... GOT IT? GOOD....

"All Israel would have to do when the Secretary General is approached by the Palestinians to conduct an investigation, is to agree to an investigation, but au contraire Olmert have ruled out Israel allowing for such, hence the Arab League will have to take it to the UGNA." - O. Reed "IF and when the Pals go to the General Assembly (which is the way the Jenin investigation was initiated), then I will believe that they are certain of their evidence." - BG I am waiting to see if the Pals will go to the UN, while you Mr. Reed have reached your conclusions already. There is more than one way to understand the motivation involved. Facts are facts. You first have to recognize them, then speculate.

Do you think that it is unfair to take down the house of a known terrorist who has killed countless israelis??? In Jenin, just like every other place, the people are warned and even given time to get out of the houses before the army comes. If they are still there, its their fault for stayin. And even so, that account just said he HOPED the families of terrorists would suffer like the families of the victims of terror do, not that many people WERE in there.

You make absolutely no sense. All Israel would have to do when the Secretary General is approached by the Palestinians to conduct an investigation, is to agree to an investigation, but au contraire Olmert have ruled out Israel allowing for such, hence the Arab League will have to take it to the UGNA. Logic isn't you strong suit I'd say. As for intent, well I wouldn't rule it out as you seem to have done. After over 700 Palestinian children killed so far Israel has proved that they aren't above targeting children or allowing for any investigations.

You have just proved that war is bad and bad things happen to civilians in a war. I have no argument with that. You have not advanced your argument on equating Jenin and Hebron at all. Logic 101, this is a course you should invest in.

you can share it with friends as we certainly won't hear you eating it so quietly in the corner. Another attempt at enanglement gone awry. A long-standing futile policy that gave birth to the culture of suicide that prevails among the arabs of yesha. Born to the arab league and left on the doorstep of the world. An avorted baby that doesn't know anything but anger, used and abused by the arab league, used by arabists to fuel their hatred. A tactic to channel the racism that isn't even hidden under the surface anymore.

If Jenin was not a massacre (since civilians "were not killed), I can't understand the following, taken from the account of 'Kurdi Bear' the driver of a 'D-9' working for the IDF. The full account is available at http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html "Many people where inside houses we set to demolish. They would come out of the houses we where working on. I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D-9. and I didn't see house falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generations. If I am sorry for anything, it is for not tearing the whole camp down.

were the 23 Israeli soldiers massacred in Jenin? Any claims of that? is 23 enough? Context is important, not just when it suits you. You compare jenin to hebron in another example of your moral bankruptcy.

I made my statement about the PA and UN based on the FACT that instead of approaching official bodies such as the General Assembly or the Security Council, the Pals went to Annan. Annan has NO authority to start an investigation, unless both sides agree. This leaves even the Palestinians some room to undermine the probe later by, for example, objecting to particular investigators. IF and when the Pals go to the General Assembly (which is the way the Jenin investigation was initiated), then I will believe that they are certain of their evidence. Incidentally, the issue at this point is PR. I don't think anybody serious thinks the attack was premeditated. At most it will be found that Israel is responsible for the acceidental death of 7 Palestinians. As it happens, the next day 7 more civilians were killed accidentally. There will be no real gain for the PA here except that they will further undermine the credibility of Israel (but Israel is doing the job quite well anyhow).

"People are getting killed every day on both sides and this is THE major issue?" - Ronnie Wolman Could you give me the names of Israelis killed by Palestinian "terror" attacks in the last 5 days? How about the last 10 days? No, well, then, how about the last 20 days? All right, how about the last month? I won't ask you to name the Palestinians - the list would take up too much space.

Josh goldman, to compare the two or even say them in the same breath is disgutsing. Of those killed in Jenin, the majority of them were shooting at the soldiers and/or were terrorists!!! Killing 50 terrorists is not a massacre, its a victory. A victory that the arabs refused to take care of themselves allowing terrorism to run rampant and free. Its not as though israel went into jenin and killed 50 unarmed innocent people in the middle of the night. In Hebron, the arabs rioted, raped, and brutally murdereerd the women, killed the children and people in cold blood. Not trying to get rid of terrorists. How can you possibly compare the two??

It is high time that Ha'aretz stopped this silly story by perpetuating almost daily. I am beginning to hate them,their correspondents,and the rest. A small incident that is blown out of all proportion. Sorry,will away now.The whole thing is too absurd for words. I think the blogers et al are running out of ideas,and presto jump to the most soft target,being Israel and the IDF,and spew it for the pleasure and recompence they will accrue from it.I fell sorry for the bastards,when they sink so low! Shame on the lot of them...

George Whenever I see his name I ignore it.Therefore, when I just read a couple of responses quoting him saying "He is beginning to hate us",made me laugh! because I and some others know the truth of his antecedents.

Josh, learn your history. The Jenin camp was used as a base for Palestinian terrorist organizations that launched dozens of bombing attacks against Israeli civilians. It was heavily fortified by these terrorists in anticipation of an Israeli attack. Some 23 IDF soldiers were killed during the several days of house to house fighting that it took to clear out the terrorists. About 50 Arabs were also killed during the fighting, the majority of whom were terrorists and combatants. Regrettably there were also about 20 or so civilian deaths, but that is what happens (and has happened in every war in history) when terrorists chose to hide behind and among civilians. In Hebron in 1929, Arab mobs attacked the Jewish community that had existed there peacefully for centuries, and murdered some 60-70 people in cold blood, old men, women, children, religious scholars... it made no difference to the Arab mob. Its quite pathetic that you can not (or will not) recognize these differences.

Post 79 ""We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting..." SM So the HRW says it was probably the IDF. You fail to appreciate it at all, this would mean they do not think it was that IDF artillery fire - but an unexploded shell already on the beach. SM "think it remains pretty clear that IDF terrorists committed the massacre." HRW now seem inclined to question their first assumption. Note it it was an exploded shell and the blast impact was top of the torso - then it was not set off by ground movement - but while the victims were some way away (suggestive of signal set off). Hamas quickly cleared the scene of evidence (one would like to know the video evidence origins/at the scene arrangments?).

you, like many others, seem to be confusing killing with murder. The numbers of dead does not determine a "massacre" It has everything to do with an intent and the nature of the fight. Murder is a premeditated (planned) killing with an intent against defenless people. That is why you are comparing apples and oranges. Events in Jenin were against armed combatants and they were "killed", not "murdered" or "massacred" in the course of that fight. Of course, people with an agenda, would like to call it massacre to score political points. Sadly, many well-intended people do not know the difference. On the other hand, Jews, massacred by Arabs in 1929, were pieceful, pius people who just wanted to pray. Hope you see the difference.

Propaganda or Propamess???? Its a bit of a joke anyway.People are getting killed every day on both sides and this is THE major issue? In this world of propaganda (and its getting worse)both the official reports of the conflict,and people view here are laced with a one eyed view of the situation. I suggest again development of the State of Myopia,with its towns, Vacumn City,Propagandaville and Homogeneous.

Here there were a bunch of people picnincing and having a good time all the while an Israeli gun boat was just off the coast in plain view. Terrorists were firing rockets 250 meters away and Israeli artillery shells were falling on those positions. Yet incrediblily nobody seemed to be the least bit concerned. I wonder why, could it be that they knew that the IDF would not be targetting them? I mean these shells were falling 250 meters away and there seems that nobody felt that they were in danger. I wonder why that do not fear our fire? Why do you think that might be?

And the point made in post 91 about the quick response of Hamas in cleaning up the scene?

""We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting..." So the HRW says it was probably the IDF. And the IDF is refusing to allow an investigation. Why not? (and don't insult people's intelligence by using the Anti-Semitism charge). It's because they all know tha I think it remains pretty clear that IDF terrorists committed the massacre. And of course as usual the IDF terrorists will walk free.

As for the UN investigation, it is certain that the US would block any Security Council resolution as they have with every other resolution regarding Palestine and Israel. Israel's refusal to allow for an investigation shows the world that they have something to hide. The IDF response was too quick and left some important questions unanswered to be credible. The history of its track record in past events does not instill confidence.

"Not asking the UN to investigate suggests the PA may know something we don`t" What are you talking about? Are you suggesting the Palestinians do not want an independent investigation? Then you are one sandwich short of a pic-nic. The NAM, Islamic States, The Arab League, the Palestinians are all working for the UN to investigate and will most likely have to give up on the SC due to American support of the Israelis and go through the UNGA. There will be an investigation with or without Israel if they do not own up to this latest massacre. There are already NGOs investigating as are human rights organisations and journalists. If you think it is the Palestinians that got something to hide and not the Israelis we will watch you eat humble pie soon and we'll enjoy it.

The most damning evidence, and also the evidence that no one wants to talk about apparantly, is the fact that Hamas came to the beach immediately afterwards and cleaned up before anyone could identify what pieces were on the ground. What does that tell us?..... What people won't choose to forget in order to make a point.

A little too much information gathered too quickly to be believed. Human rights organisations, Palestinians, and now this Channel 10 report give evidence that Olmert may have wanted to avoid. But going back over the years and researching responses from the IDF to similar events clearly shows the same pattern of cover up and denial. One should not expect anything different than this from occupiers. It is simply how they rule.

Israel is certainly the prime suspect for the Gaza beach tragedy. The timing of the explosion (during bombardment of a nearby site), and its refusal to cooperate with an international investigation,rightly makes Israel appear responsible. But what about the Palestinians? Did they ask the UN to investigate? No, they only asked the UN Secretary General to investigate. Annan cannot do so unless both sides agree, which is not the case. But the Security Council or the General Assembly can ask Annan to do so. (This is what happened in the case of the "Jenin massacre". Israel was cleared of the "massacre" charge even though it did not assist the investigation.) Not asking the UN to investigate suggests the PA may know something we don't. But perhaps they see no need for an investigation since Israel appears guilty anyhow. Let this be a lesson to Olmert; he has done very little in the international arena that seems wise. Maybe he should do the opposite of what his gut tells him to do

They see their role as exposing corruption in western government, they rarely examine themselves, or review any misreporting (it may lead people to question them, the way they encourage others to question government). Israel should be flattered to be seen as one of the western governments of purported standards. It's just a pity this media expects no standards from "third worlders" and will not spend any time outlining the violence and incitement of their terrorism and intimidation (including good cop bad cop appease us diplomacy). Rather questioning the ethics of western governments anti-terrorist operations (part of a criticism of imperfection in government/US "leadership" - maybe the US should also be flattered).

Inconvenient to your point of view?

Nice to see that not all Israeli Jews is part of this cover-up or will tolerate it.

It is in times like this, that the IDF needs the support of the people in its name they commit these war crimes. Support the IDF.

This is just the begining, just the "we wont buy it" start of matters. The IDF should stop shooting itself in the foot and limp away to fight another day. No spin in the world will help.

One question, the original HRW report suggested a shell exploding above the ground ... (so an "unexploded" shell is only possible if the family did not trigger it under foot, but it went off some distance away by remote detonation?) Otherwise someone else fired it. Ship? Israeli on land. Palestinains having an ability to fire unexploded Israeli shells. One cannot exlude the possibility of an Israeli group opposed to convergence firing independently of the Israeli IDF unit. To cause diplomatic isolation, escalate violence and cite too much security risk with convergence. Or of Palestinians deliberately doing the same.

The major western print media has already concluded that an IDF shell was responsible for the tragedy on the Gaza beach. Score one for the Palestinians. The IEF (Israeli Excuse Force) so strenuously vociferating here should stand down and save its ammo for a better cause because this one is already lost.

And that what we did. - Ehud & Amir. "We never promised you a rose garden" ... and after a brief contrition-break ... bombing business as usual... Didn't Ehud tell us: "We don't turn civilians into victims"... (we enlist them first, and tag their children "terrorists"... (and what does Bush?). Heard about ETHNIC CLEANSING in AL QUDS? - NO, did you? We only "defend their rights to better services accross the WALL" etc. usw. osv.

If the IDF has nothing to hide then they would be co-operating with an investigation. Their refusal to so and their lack of cooperation begs the question - what are they hiding? Especially in light of the mounting evidence of their responibility for this heinous act . As the days go by it seems ever more obvious that IDF terrorists murdered that family. But as usual they will go unpunished

Jun. 19, 2006 22:37 | Updated Jun. 20, 2006 1:39 HRW: We can't contradict IDF findings "We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance," Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting... ...Garlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF's system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip and unlike Hamas which specifically targeted civilians in its rocket attacks, the Israelis, he said, invested a great amount of resources and efforts not to harm innocent civilians. "We do not believe the Israelis were targeting civilians." Garlasco said. "We just want to know if it was an Israeli shell that killed the Palestinians." Lucy Mair - head of the HRW's Jerusalem office - said Klifi's team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made "a good assessment" when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF she

Can anyone help me with this? Over the past few days the subject of Jenin has come up a lot, with the familiar point from one side it not being a massacre as claimed by others. We don't know for sure how many people were killed since a proper investigation by independent authorities was obstructed by the Israelis. However, the figure of 50 people seems acceptable to many of the right-leaning contributors to this forum. 50 dead people does not, it seems, constitute a 'massacre'. By the same token, the events that took place in Hebron in 1929 are considered a 'massacre' of Jews. According to sources (see link below) between 64-67 Jews were killed. So, does an extra 14-17 people make it a 'massacre'? Is 60 perhaps the threshold? Or there are other factors at play? e.g. who did the killing? who got killed? etc, etc. Any thoughts anyone? http://www.zionism-israel.com/Hebron_Massacre1929.htm

Haaretz should innitiate a competition BUSH LIERS against KADIMA LIERS

And why do our Israeli friends lie? Because telling the truth about it would destroy the house of cards. That is why i.e., the "IDF" never disclosed the name or location of the ISAF base where the 13-year-old was raped by 78 soldiers and NCOs' including TWO US SOLDIERS.

Someone can launch attacks on Israel from near to a beach and have people on the beach be aware of Israeli shelling in response. Then set off two unexploded Israeli shells set on the beach, one to clear it and the other to create some casualties of those remaining. One can even use a vehicle of their own for firing an Israeli shell. Such to embarrass Israel before an diplomatic visit to Europe. But then, some in Israel oppose the sales mission for convergence and may want to provoke a Palestinian rocket barrage onto Israel, so as to prepare the way for their own campaign against convergence.

It doesn't matter what the IDF say. They murdered a family and tried to get out of it by saying it wasn't them. Fortunatly independent observers have shown without doubt that an Israeli shell killed a Palestinian family having a picnic on a beach. If this happened to an Israeli family it would be called terrorism. Now I'll sit back and read all those who will say that the IDF do not deliberatly target civilians. That anyone who doesn't agree with the IDF is a leftie, and that old chestnut, the Palestinians don't exist. Coupled with a new mantra, resettle the Palestinians to the East. The IDF went for a cover up like with Tom Hurndall and have been caught out again.

Jewish legend has invented "Truth" ("EMETH"), but that was only the key to stop 'THE GOLEM' in the great legend. In the first tale on the man-made ROBOT, the writer used a piece of paper on which he wrote EMETH to start the robot working. When the Rabbi forget the "key" the robot continues performing his "duties" and floods the town. But Israel invented, in June 1967, an ISRAEL DEFENCE FORCES to defend the "PEACE OF OCCUPATION", and... the NEW-IDF has re-invented NEWSPEAK.. the only Hebrew that DOVER TSAHAL NEWSPEAKS.

I see that you are getting worried over the shrapnel David. The problem is that the IDF lied not only about that.

They can't respond to facts, so they have to hop from thread to thread and post quickly, before they're addressed again. Once more: - Jenin - Mohammed in Gaza - 1967 was before 1948 and 1965 - No Palestinian knows where the $1.5 billion embezzled by Arafat and friends went - The Palstinian goverenment knows nothing about the bombing of Americans who visited Gaza in order to give university scholarships - The PLO, PA and Fatah accept Israel (even though their constitutions clearly call for Israel's destruction) And it goes on and on. Meanwhile, the IDF regularly announces when it's attacked terrorists. It also openly apologizes when civilians are hit and West Bank Palestinians are currently being cared for in Israel hospitals for such as mistake. Yet to the two anti-semites it's the ARabs who tell the truth and the Israelis who lie. Big Brother is alive, he's just not big, only loud and anti-Semitic and his serfs go by the name of Roger, Johanes, Samed and more.

Some interesting messages in that piece, including by Uri Davis. Is it his views you particularly recommend to Hasan?

The Human Rights Watch has already reported that X-rays of shell fragments inside of injured chidlrens bodies were consistent with 155mm shells. Is it the "crack" in the Jewish defense line that is the real story?

Let see them wriggle their way out of this one. "We fired sex shells and we found five", it should have been a hint as to what happened to the sixth when a whole family, on the very same beach area they were targeting, were blown to pieces and another 30 children wounded. It was friday "the day at the beach" for most poor people of Gaza. The IDF knew they were there. Now the IDF will claim that what fooled them was that the piece they tested really was a piece from a car, in where they wounded child had been hiding. I give you that one IDF, pass it on to them because they are to dumb to come up with anything better. That if they ever will come clean.

But why, just why, did the beach MINE detonate just then ? ================================================= incredulous to me that IDF continues to avoid mentioning a very possible scenario................... that the Bad Guys ( very BLACK September types ) planted a mine or israeli-type ordinance on the Gaza beach, with remote-control option, and then awaited confluence of: israeli SHELLING with palestinian FAMILY BEACH time, -and only then callously detonated via remote as propaganda ploy.....the ultimate frame-up Therefore, israel should be wary of saying NOT israeli-type ordinance, because that particular fact may come back to haunt them in the future; or in future "BEACH-type civilian deaths" The style of the ordinance is NOT the key issue; rather, who placed it there ? was it actively detonated ? by who ? are the key issues // By-the-way, how come a TV crew just-happened-to-be-there at precisely the right time ? This is the Middle East, and there are NO BOUNDARIES Initially the mines may have been planted to thwart Israeli commandos, but then "the light bulb" may have gone off in the mind of these ( palestinian ) bomb experts..... Now, the very scrupulously meticulous israeli position is that a palestinian MINE exploded ( no mention of a possible remote detonation ) ~ 15......20 minutes after the last israeli explosion ( 600 meters away ) ~ spontaneously But how come it spontaneously exploded - and just then - right under a beach group ? ( with TV crews present right there ) hypothetically, just connect the DOTS..........not that obscure the Jews are a nation of a zillion Nobel Laureates this one is not that complicated the possibility should be raised ------------------------------------------------ not as a CONCLUSION, but as a VIABLE POSSIBILITY it HARMONIZES the facts ---------------------------------------- Afraid of hurting some Palestinian feelings ? David Birnbaum New York ==========================================

After all, both the IDF and Hamas have been playing fast and loose with civilian lives. What difference does it make if it was an unexploded IDF shell or a Hamas landmine - it could have been either.

The "official story" is under threat, the modern world have caught up with old lies. It isn't as easy as before to blatantly lie and gain advantages. You can still lie, but to gain from it is getting harder and the lies has to be better to even be given a sportly chance to serve its master. These IDF "findings" never stood a change. It was almost as if they were deliberatly provocative and scream out "we dare you, we dare you to challenge our findings" to test friends and supporters. The "missing shell" that nobody from the Israeli air, land, sea and radar observations, so conviniently, saw explode was of course the very shell that cut the Palestinians into pieces. Why, is now the remaining question. Free Palestine!

It MAY have been an unexploded Israeli shell (set off by a signal detonated mine - raising the possibility of Pal ops to discredit Israel diplomatically prior to any convergence - including an escalation in rocket attack launched violence to promote internal unity?) on the beach. As some unnamed official reported in response to, or as damage response to any fragments on the beach of this sort (which can planted after the event by the way). Then someone denies that any fragment in a person could have been from an Israeli shell. This ignores the earlier story of an unexploded shell going off. Now it seems like the any port in a storm response scenario dynamic.

"The Palestinians in Israel hospitals do not have shrapenel belonging to the shelling that had taken place"... Did I miss something here? Why Palestinian lets the victims being treated in Israel's hospital, if they knew the shrapnels belonged to the HAMAS's planted land mines (or bomb). They wanted IDF notice that shrapnels?

An international inquiry is needed for one reason : Justice 4 the Ghalia family. They have an absolute right to know exactly what happened ... Let's put aside all the propaganda and just think about the victims for a (yes, only one) minute ... On a different level, the beach-goers have a right to know the truth too

We all know palistinians are cold blooded killers and great liars, I know as a fact IDF is the most human Army in the world , during 1967 war I was in Cairo , IDF had full control of Egyptian skies ,of course military targets was hit hard but not one bomb was dropped on civilians, schools or mosques . I bet you if it was the other way around palistian would go and hit any civilian target that they find. I grew among Arabs , I know too well your way of thinking ,what you say in English to westen press and what you say in Arabic among yourselves. Israel is a real Democracy , the problem is the rest is not , And people like you protect them rather than reveal the real problem of middle east which is total lack of freedom of speech religion and elections , and the mass propaganda machine starting at ago 2 to condition its people way of thinking and behaviour. Victor

Texas is a big place, Debbie. Can't really write off the whole state. I do, however love the quote universally attributed to Texas's first female Governor (1924), Ma Ferguson. In defense of teaching no languages other than English and in Texas public schools she is quoted as saying: "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it ought to be good enough for the children of Texas." She apparently was educated to the hilt, so it's hard to believe she herself did not see the silliness in the statement. But it's great example of old-timey pandering to an ignorant, faith-holding voter base; American style. I don't think Mark Lincoln should be lumped in with that kind of oozing Texas sludge. As for George W. Bush, he is surely some kind of idiot; i.e. some kind of identifyable clinical deficiency in cognitive functioning. But there's plenty of smarts in the folks around him, especially the ones who got him started in Texas. His handlers have more of a truth deficiency.

I leave to the instant apologists of the israeli armed forces to sort out between themselves whether the killing of the family was acceptable collateral damage or an incident in which the IDF had no role whatsoever, both views seems well represented. What strikes me in the Haaretz article is the firm denial that the recovered shrapnel comes from Israeli ordnance - "the fragment resembled explosives used by Palestinian organizations" - followed later by an admittance from an Israeli official that "an unexploded shell from a past shelling attack on the beach might have detonated". Sorry! I'm confused. Does this mean that IDF in "past shelling attacks on the beach" used ordnance that "resembled explosives used by the Palestinian organizations"?

The Palestinians removed the evidence from the area in an apparent attempt to hide the truth. The Palestinians surely have plenty of IDF fragments to plant at scene or claim to be taken from victims. Had the palestinians jointly cooperated, then it could have been jointly proven who was at fault. rather, they chose to take evidence from the scene, and not permit examination of victims. The Palestinians in Israel hospitals do not have shrapenel belonging to the shelling that had taken place. The conclusion is obvious. It seems that every time a Palestinian dies they blame the Jews. This happened before when the Terrorists blew up their own and blamed Israel, but it was uncovered. Even though it was uncovered ann Abbas announce the truth, the Palestinianians still blamed the Jews. Even if it is from natural causes the Jews are blamed, like with Arafat. When will the Palestinians take responsibility for there own violence?

News reports are flooding in about a turnabout in the finances of Gazan children, especially those who spend the day on the beach. Cameras follow their every movement, some mounted on helicopters, so that in case there is a massacre by the IDF the agony can be caught for the world's delectation. No need to worry any more about feeding the children or about funds for hospitalisation: the royalties from the stars are being turned over to Gazan charities and money is flowing like water once again.

DID YOU KNOW THEY STILL FIND ENEXPLODED GERMAN BOMBS IN LONDON 60 YEARS AFTER THE WAR??? AND IN OTHER UK CITIES! WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS FLAGELLATION ? IS HAARETZ TRYING TO PROVE THE EARTH IS FLAT? ISRAEL IS AT WAR ! EVEN FRIENDLY FIRE ACCIDENTS WILL HAPPEN!!

They're trying to save Hamas and Fatah from the abyss (just as they often saved Arafat until he died.)

Israel is always right and never is wrong. They are people with such high standards. Their military operations are well thought out and are very secure. They never put children or innocents at risk. They never ever bully the occupied, and they always treat the elderly with respect. Never ever do they confiscate land or bulldoze homes or cut off olive trees.

Either they should release all the ballistic reports identifying every piece of shrapnel removed fr. every Palestinian treated in Israeli hospitals; or they should release this information to an independent panel appointed to examine the whole affair. As it is, it seems that the IDF report will die a death by a thousand cuts inflicted by the news media & groups like Human Rights Watch who are investigating the IDF investigation. How will the IDF ever persuade anyone of the credibility of the original report if they don't do either one of these things? I'd venture to say we should stay tuned for further damaging reports on this matter.

I do sense some bias here, Very subjectively, from my side, of course. There were a lot more artillery shells, I believe. Why don't we talk about those? Well, because they did not kill enough Palestinians, I guess. And we don't talk about the Kassams, because they did not kill enough Jews. For CNN to come back, things have to become a lot worse.

Gee, why does it not surprise me that Mark Lincoln is from Texas. I confess. I despise Texas, home of our moronic president, and the state where people are ignorant and gosh darn it proud of it.

""To those, and there are as many as there are knee-jerk apologists, Israel haters. Please note that Israelis care about the truth, and there are those Israelis that will promote the truth even when it hurts. I can`t think of a time when I have seen the same from Mench - a man, someone who would stand when others would run."" Fair enough

so, the Israelis just suicide bombed themselves in order to take it out on poor palestinians?

Do not forget that the beach is an open area. So, I do not need any other information to claim that it was israeli shelling which cause the killings. Israel is to try intentionaly provocation after provocation to push the palestinian to react. Tsahal is a nest of racism and extremism. No one could deny it. I'm 150 per cent sure that there is a state within the state. There is a fight inside the army.

Again, just consider this simple common sense: Was it reasonable to believe that HAMAS planted only ONE land mine on the beach in anticipation on Israel`special forces. There should be hundreds land mines around. The QUESTION is, why on earth there was only THAT family stepping into those deadly land mines. What about the press corps who were walking around shortly after the accident, what about THAT poor young girl who lost 4 member of her family? CNN, BBC, and the other hundreds of reporters should have noticed if HAMAS members cleaned those beach shortly after that accident. The answer: Because that was not a land mine, that accident was caused by Israel 155 mm artillery projectil.

Yes, Mark, after reading about the Al-Dura affair, my knee jerk reaction is that the Pals (and the Froggistanies) are lying. Does not mean that Israelis are angels. But when IDF says something with certainty, I tend to believe it. On top of it, we now have some info from other sources which I specified above.

I am a Palestinian lived in Gaza. I voted along with other Palestinians to Hamas at last elections not only for the corruptions of Fatah but to recognised the great victory of Hamas - Liberation of Gaza. We then hope that Hamas will maintained law and order in Palestine and destroy the law and order of Israel. Now I am disillusioned to Hamas, they killed an inocent Palestinian family and blame Israel to get sympathy and regroup our supporter of Israeli Left to delegitimise IDF. I am not against delegitimise Israel and also very greatful to Israeli leftist organisations (Peace Now, Machsom watch etc.) who are helping us to destroy Israel in stages. But I am totaly against to make any scapegoat to a Palestinian family for this purpose.

Vickery, we don't need your love. What did you say or do about the arabs, who have been killing innocdent, peaceful jewshish men women and children since before 1920, since before the 1948 war, since before the 1956 war, since before the 1967 war, since before the 1973 war. You are and always were a Jew hater. You are nothing less than a filthy coward, spewing self righteosness to hide your vile reality. Who was the two-fased son o0f a pig of an Arafat who started the wretched intifada? or before that sent the terrorist gangs to attack across the borders. This has been going on since before 1947-48. Get on your knees and pray. Pray for your soul. Pray for your fellow travelling Jew haters. Pray to the Jew for forgiveness. But rest assured, your day is comming. Pray,brother, pray you arab Quisling. you will yet meet the same end. Shame, shame on England to have allowed such filth to propagate through its morally banckrupt media and educatiors. A nation of arab but lickers.

"THE GIRL ACTED THE SHOT FIVE TIMES BEFORE FILMING HER. AND THE SCENE IS FABRICATED" I must say, the girl screaming to the heavens, filmed from above was a nice touch! Hurray for Pallywood!!!

Your concern for the truth and the Palestinian victims is touching. Perhaps you might want to recommend this link from the Guardian which tell the other side of the story? The side that explains why Israel is fighting this war? The side that mentions the thousands of Israeli civilian victims of Palestinian terrorists? http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1704784,00.html

To those, and there are as many as there are knee-jerk apologists, Israel haters. Please note that Israelis care about the truth, and there are those Israelis that will promote the truth even when it hurts. I can't think of a time when I have seen the same from Mench - a man, someone who would stand when others would run.

I do not think for an instant that the IDF intentionally shelled a family picnic. All evidence is to the contrary. However, I think the IDF would have been wise to not have produced such a contrary, and contradictory, series of statements and explanations, followed with absolute denials.

Thanks to Guardian , who always puplishes the truth http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1799558,00.html

I worked as a translator with a lot of correspondents to American and British newspapers , the IDF lied each and every time. They lied in May Incursion To Rafah , when two children were killed by an Israeli sniper , they said their father killed them by his explosives, Secondly at the same time a peaceful march was going to a neighborhood , where the IDF was killing and destroying indiscriminately . they killed 20 most of them are children and lied when they said that it was all militants T Last an American Israeli site , still till now , says THE GIRL ACTED THE SHOT FIVE TIMES BEFORE FILMING HER. AND THE SCENE IS FABRICATED

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2006/06/18/the-germans-do-the-work/

Are you serious? Its the Right who doesn't like and even attacks the IDF. As a "Leftist" I pray its not the IDF. Who is "Human Rights Watch?"

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2006/06/19/the-gaza-beachgate-tarbaby-all-the-usual-suspects-line-up/ Haaretz, perhaps it is time to jump the sinking ship and appologize to the IDF.

Dave Wrote: "So the IDF responds in the hopes of halting these abhorent and useless acts. Innocents get killed on both sides." My question is: When has tit-for-tat violent, abhorent acts ever worked to stop violent, abhorent acts? I agree with your use of the word "useless." But, becasue the other side is stupid enough to be "useless" and destructive, where is the logic in being also stupid?

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/ http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/26973.html http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355528023&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000123.html

Show me a war where innocents don't die and I'll show you a liar. Now you've posted a number of emotive posts about Israelis trying to shift the blame. But I wonder, are you as emotive when Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa deliberately target and kill Israeli innocents? Or do you just reserve your ire for the IDF who may be responsible for what you yanks term "collateral damage"?

There have been too many times that the palestinian propoganda machine has been PROVEN to be untruthful whereas each and everytime the IDF has been brought up on charges, the charges have been been fully open whether the soldier has been reprimanded or jailed or let go due to lack of hard evidence. But in each case the IDF has admitted guilt. This instance can be the same . Whether or not anyone is brought forward to take blame but the IDF sees no reason to accept blame this time and I personally have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless of who fired the shot that killed seven civilians, this horrible accident should make people pause and reflect about bringing this endless massacre of people to an end. Bloodshed is bloodshed. Who fired the shot in immaterial. Surely there are enough people of goodwill on both sides to bring this madness to an end.

Jews, you can call it anti-semetic if you like,but this is truths and facts.I wonder sometimes if you can realy handle truths without calling someone anti-semtic.Everyone knows that Israel has a right to protect it's citizens.As and still and occupier Israel have to protect Palestinians also. But when you have a crazed thug like criminals (IDF) killing innocent people and then trying to blame the Palestinians and hoping that the world believes you.You didn't get the reply you were looking for Israel,the world is on to your manipulations and fabrications. That girl laid lifeless on the ground,before that Captain decided to finish her off like an animal.But his reward was a promotion,Jews always find ways to justify their actions. Olmert calls the IDF a moral army,that is a sad and I hope his speech writers will prepare him the next time.Why do Israel consistantly fire missiles in crowded areas when they are trying to kill a suspect,they have no regards for innocent Palestinians.

Let's hope that it isn't true.

It is ludicrous to believe that army brass of any nation is going to blame itself and its ranks for a murder of a family on a beach.If it does blame itself , the top brass's heads will roll , so as to be scapegoats for politicians. Low ranking officers would be possibly tried and convicted. Makers of the used weapons will be sued . No, No assuming responsibility ,is out of the question... The family that got killed is to blame , they went to a beach. They should not go to the beach. It is their fault. It must be since The IDF is a moral army and it cannot possibly do something like this. Besides it is the Palestinians fault for lobing Qassams. No No , not our responsibility. It is their's and only their's . They are evil and they hate us so much , it is their fault that we do what we do. We are robots and guided by what the Arabs do and cannot be responsible , never responsible...We only react and never act .They hate because we are jews . They are Jew haters. Antisemites .

David James Vickery, don't apologise, we understand you completely. You and your kind don't need these types of incidents to hate us. You'd hate us irrespective. And if these incidents would not occur, you'd invent such incidents in order to hate us. And if we didn't exist, you'd invent us in order to hate someone!

While for the Americans in their 'involvements' abroad, it's called 'collateral damage'. Time to be rid of hypocrisy.

You have no basis for your second-hand 'information'.

It's unfortunate that innocents on both sides get killed. But war is war. The Palestinian terrorists insist on firing Qasssams on innocent Israelis on a daily basis. So the IDF responds in the hopes of halting these abhorent and useless acts. Innocents get killed on both sides. But that's what happens in war. Stop the terrorism. Stop the Qassams. Then Israel will stop the responses. The only solution is to negotiate. But the Palestinian Hamas government doesn't want to. They refuse to accept Israel's existence. They deny Jewish history. That's the problem.

The attack was deliberate, see for yourself what they did. http://judicial-inc.biz/Gaza_video_beach.htm

""Why does Israeli society almost totally not give a damn? Many people including myself are beginning to hate you for it."" The fact that they pursue this matter proves that the Israeli society cares a lot about it. Many people including yourself hate Israelis and Jews full stop not because or this or that incident so stop lying and pretend that you have a motive.

It would seem that a knowitall might at least know how to spell and might even figure out how to type, even if his fingers are frostbitten. Can we give any credence to anything he writes? Here in ABQ, rated one of the most intelligent cities in the US, neither our fingers nor our brains are ever frostbitten and so I am able to assess his posting - as pure bilge.

The Palestinians are masters of propaganda. They kill a whole family( of their own) on a beach to promote their cause and blame it on Israel. What is the matter with them? We provide electricity for them ,water , food , and recently guns so that they can kill each other .We deny them their right for movement. They should be happy that they are an occupied people and tended to like sheep. They should be happy that we extrajudicaly kill their sons so that they will be safe.We keep them in refugee camps where we keep them dependent on an international system of donations. We kicked them out of their villages and placed them in beautiful refugee camps.They have it made . I do not understand why they are so angry about?

"Many people including myself are beginning to hate you for it." Your hatred for us is so well documented that your opinion doesn't matter in the least.

If the israeli Government claims to be democratic , it should not fear transparency. Many times in the past the IDF and the Israeli govt had declared one thing as true and the media exposed their lies. I recall the incident when an alleged terrorist was captured alive . The IDF reported that the militant was killed in the operation while TV report footage showed that he was cuffed and being dragged alive till the murderous Israeli army executed him. No wonder nobody in the Israeli govt, would like an independent investigation.They always lie . The truth will emerge eventualy. Spin can only dampen the damage....

Why would the IDF Lie ? -some would think "well they would wouldnt they" some may think to " protect themselfs" but if it was a lie it would be found out eventualy? Shurly to intentonaly lie is nieave and self-defeting. i think the IDF has more four sight than to lie

In absence of an external investigation and with an accused party that claims for itself the exclusive right of providing 'true facts', the credibility of the IDF is the latest victim of the Gaza explosion. But who has interest in covering it up if not Peretz?! Unlike the military, Peretz knows he would have to pay a political price, starting in his own party.

does the LIE-DF actually expect anyone to believe that a random beach explosion occurs 10-15 minutes after IDF shelling nearby all on its own? What a coincidence. No such random explosion occurs before, only when the navy is bombing targets.

The IDF killed a family on the beach in cold blood. I don't know why people find this surprising. The Terrorist IDF, one of the most well trained terroist armies in the world, has killed 700 children in a few years. It is only the people who think that the killing of a family on the beach was an accident that would also think that the killing of 700 children was an accident.

The pals fire at civilians every day. Why does Israel have to make this a fair fight? I am not saying wholesale slaughter is a good idea, it is not. However, if the arabs could increase Israeli casualties, they surely would, and there would be no investigations, apologies and much dancing in the street. The pals provoked Israeli guns, they paid a price. Then again, it probably was their own shell that caused the casualties, it wouldn't be the first time.

So you're beginning to hate us? Oh no, say it isn't so. It's your pathalogical hatred that brings you here every day, and not anywhere else. Goodle your name and the only time you turn up is when you are attacking Israel. And you're right, I don't give a damn about what you think. Thanks for dropping by, Canadian.

You're "beginning" to hate Israel? I've seen you post here for months and you've always hated Israel. And in fact the hatred of closed-minded people like you is why many supporters don't give a damn about the supposed attack whatever its origins.

what a joke

what's all the fuss about with palestinian civilians being harmed? didn't you all hear the SHOCKING report suggesting that palestinian arabs MAY have been involved in murdering and maiming innocent israeli civilians with rocket fire, bombs and bullets. in all fairness, that report was inconclusive...the possibility that the IRA or aliens from outer space were behind such attacks is still being studied by the international community.

Because the investigation was obstructed, the truth was obscured and propaganda spun and spewed by the Palestinians and their loyal lefties among us. It is less likely that IDF targeted the beach; It is more likely that Hamas killed its own people to gain sympathy from the enemy in our midst. Israel must respond with a heavier hand; for the sake of Sderot; for the sake of Palestinian civilians, unwittingly caught up in this mess; for the sake of peace, END THE QASSAMS, NOW.

A left wing German paper, Seuddeutsche, has published a comprehensive report laying bare the Pals propaganda about the Gaza beach incident. Where is Haaretz coverage of that report? Yet again you will do anything to spit in the face of the IDF and your own people to show how down trodden the poor Pals are.

usual leftist mindless, groundless crap

So they'd have an perpetual excuse for doing nothing against Qassams.Now they need to find some new excuses like " It would make matters worse"

I read a report which stated that an Israeli television channel showed film of a naval officer aartillery shell was fired. Is this true or not? How can the IDF continue to deny that they in fact killed that family? Why does Israeli society almost totally not give a damn? Many people including myself are beginning to hate you for it.

It has been glaringly clear for some time that the IDF lacks the honesty, integrity and morals needed to properly investigate itseld, and therfore international oversight is needed find the truth and to prevent future autrocities. When they IDF's Captain R. murdered the little 13-year-old Palestinian school girl in cold blood by shooting her in the head as she lay wouned first with a pistol to the head and then riddling her with a machnine gun, he was never charged with her death, and later was promoted for his crime. Israel has lost its morality and has become not just a pariah among nations, but exposes a deeper problem with Judaism itself. Shame on Israel and Shame on those Jews who continue to support it.

It appears that Olmert was prudent to not allow an independent investigation.