IDF officers: We have less freedom than terrorists

This is a great day for justice and hopefully Sharon will stand trials for his war crimes against innocent civilians. The IDF soldiers have been committing crimes against the Palestinians for a long time and its time for something to happen. Justice will prevail.

If you do not want me to read your posts, stop posting. Everyone would be better off. You have no understanding of law, whatsoever, and the sooner you admit it, the better. Calling me paranoid and illogical is a reflection on you.

Yasmine, every one of your posts reflect a deep hatred for Jews and Israel. There's no subtlety, there's no acknowledgement of the fact that Israelis have varied opinions, there's no acceptance of any blame directed toward the Palestinians. Everything is black and white, good and evil, right versus wrong. I hope one day you'll decide to look at the many shades of gray that exist on both sides. I hope you'll have the courage to examine honestly the positions of many Israelis and Jews who think peace is possible. Until that day, your one-line position serves very little purpose.

Cipora, You are outdoing yourself. "He still thinks that some foreign citizen can file suit against an Israeli general in an Israeli court." - Cipora the Amazing Cipora, If a crime has been committed in Israel, and you are the victim, a tourist, then of course you go to court IN ISREAL. Where else, lady? It happens everyday, and this is the universal situation. In Britain, if you want to file a law suit against a crime committed OUTSIDE of Britain, you need to be a British citizen. This is understandable, although probably not to you. Why should a national court deal with matters where no side of the dispute has any British connection? Both criminal and victim should be non British? You are not thinking, Cipora. Is it too early in the morning for you? Let me suggest, as you said yesterday: I don't know what I am talking about, and you don't find it useful to read my posts and respond to them. We will both save a lot of time, and your illogical mind will not be exposed.

It has been written on katibeh.Dont deny your truth history.Besides you are not arabs.what is the iranian problems with israel.why do you support your enemies.Is that because they are muslims.And israeli are jews?What israeli did to iranian.And what the arabs did to iranian in history.

And you are far away from the reality.Iran are not longer headed by a puupet regime? you are too naive Mr P.Since reza shah until 1979 iran was stable because of pahlavy policy and strong iranian army.Saddam hossin never gone to his mind attack to iran.In early 1970 kurds were defeating iraq with support of iranian government.Then it was a islamic conference in maraksh that muslims leaders convinceded the shah stop his support to kurds.and at the same time saddam kissed the shah to apprecaiated him.Obviosly we still have problems regarding 60,000 dissidents has been vanished between 1954-79.But what iam sure there is not any regime cruelly like the mullahs.And i dont beileve in that occupying land.Jews they have been in that land since 3500 years ago.But the land has been invaded by different empire.Read your real history book regardinig to that freedom in 2500 years ago great syrus(kooresh kabir) gave to jews and asked them go back to jerusalem and rebuid the temple.Con.

No massacre in Jenin! Mohammad Al Durra was killed by Palestinian! Halimi was killed by Islamist cuz he was a Jewish! I guess we'll hear in the future that Palestinian citizen demolish their own houses to make Israel notorious. Those are just believeable by Israelis, my friend! Do not expect other people believe you.

Palestinian children deserve to be killed as they will turn to devil and evil in the near future! Al-Durra was shot by a Palestinian jihadist who was disguised in Israeli uniform! In fact they shouldn't be discussed, because their life is worthless. But when it comes to Israeli citizens all the world should be answerable.

BG is doing the thinking. How magnanimous. He feels no need to fight nazi slander because paranoids like me do it for him. He still thinks that some foreign citizen can file suit against an Israeli general in an Israeli court. No way, they cannot do such a thing. Even in UK, under universal jurisdiction, the person has to be a UK citizen.

Your points are well made. I think what is going on is a legal attack on impunity. What is also interesting is that the senior IDF officers are upset over an IDF command decision to limit their travel. Presumably this is Mofaz's decision. But they are not mad at him. And they never question the rules of engagement that may have vrought this about. Lastly, they don't consider that the IDF recently changed the investigative rules, or at least announced the rules were changing. How will they react if the JAGs start doing real investigations instead of just filing after-action reports when seemingly unarmed and innocent civilians die?

Bareekalah agha, People like e.m. cringe at the fact that Iranians are no longer headed by a puupet regime. They ignore the fact that over 60,000 dissidents vanished between 1954-79. Of course what can you expect from those who helped train the SAVAK. By the way, I wonder where e.m. gets "hundreds of thousands executed by the mullahs". Obviously we still have problems, but at least we are not cruelly occupying others.

Last year, I was prepared to travel to the United Kingdom to celebrate the victory of Michael Howard as Prime Minister from the British Torry Party. Unfortunately, Mr. Howard was not elected. Like Mr. Howard, I am of Romanian Jewish origin and it would have been a "fargenign" to celebrate the victory of a "landsleit." Had he won, Michael Howard would have become the third Jewish Head of State in the World. Now, there is only one, President Moshe Katzhav. The second, President Roberto Maduro of Honduras, was replaced when his Presidential term expired.

For I dont have to say anything for you to fall inside your own abyss.

You know that people come to Canada and the new world from many places.When they come and many years ago it was Jews just like it is many other cultures now they do whatever they have to do to survive.Whatever. Then they take the money and send their kids to private school or university and the kids grow and so things differently than their parents because the situation has changed. Years ago Israels survival was the number one issue but today israel survival is assured. Apart from the nuclear problem (and it is a problem) Israel is a strong country. Now we have to do things differently. We have to play by the rules of the western world. America shot its way to liberation.Squeezing the indians and doing whatever it had to do to create a civilised society,it has since grown up to take its place in the world. Its time for Israel to grow up. And many Jews,no not all,feel the same. There are many issues Gabe. Not one. its not that simple. The simple part is done.

It will not take long. The difference is that the fellow travellers will be outraged.

Never.You will always be too busy to see anything outside Israel.

Do the Palestinians have to suicide bomb Pizza restaurants in Tel Aviv to liberate the West Bank? Or do they really bomb in the name of Islamic Fundamentalism? Its important to know. Not because it makes the act less horrific but it puts a price on the act itself. Thats why I want to seperate the Hamas Charter from the idea of Palestinian 'resistance'. We cannot debate Islamic fundamentalism.There is nothing to debate.Its absolute.But we can debate and negotiate if its not that.

I always thought it was an attack by insurgents against the status quo of a country,civilian OR military. But it seems now that when they talk terrorism they are talking about attacks against CIVILIAN targets specifically. I am not sure if the term has changed over time. But if it has,has the war crimes tribunal changed with it? I think that the term terrorism is also lent to who is zooming who. I mean if there is terror in defence of democracy,then it is considered different to terror in the name of Islamic fundamentalism. I absolutely believe in democracy as being our best system so far,so would feel that a decision to save democracy by terrorism is acceptable as opposed to Islamic fundamentalism. But then comes the question: Was there an option to terrorism? Was there an option to the US bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima with an A Bomb??? Did England have to bomb Dresden to end the war?

I thought we were debating the issues or ISSUE. The survival of Israel in a sea of enemies and terror. You mean that you want to debate your PERSONAL agenda so that you Blog looks good. Is that not so? I have a sneaking suspicion that on an intellectual level you are way above your head in these discussions. Blowing smoke up somebodies keaster does not a debate make. ONLY THE FACTS MA'AM and nothing else.

Once charges are filed in Israel, the officer will have the choice of never setting foot in England (and Europe) ever again. It will be up to him and the State of Israel. If there is a credible investigation by Israel, no problem. The current situation prevents ALL Israeli high officers from travelling in Europe. After a change in the law, only some (if any) will not be able to travel.

Shavua tov lekha, Ben Gurion. I'd have a lot to say about what you just wrote, but I'll leave it for some other occasion. Have to sleep. Regards, -

Observer,I dont think you observe the world too much. Infact both of you have a hard time comprehending what is it to be anything other than a right wing nationalist. Its simple. You both havent given any good arguments or debate about the situation in Israel. They are kind of silly sound bites.Propaganda style sound bites. You want to discuss ISSUES Im for it.

I am going to leave shortly. If you reply, will read it tomorrow. "Slavery" was outlawed. But the A bomb is the most relevant example. Why don't you work on it first, find the moral answer, then deal with suicide bombers? You have reached your conclusions on the hard case before you resolved the easier case. Yes, the PA condems the bombing when it suits them. Usually, when it interferes with the progress of talks or other developments they are interested in. The condemnation is politically motivated. Seems obvious, since the people themselves look at the bomber as a hero. (Next you will tell me that the Palestinians are immoral because they do politically-motivated things.) As far as Hamas, they objected to the Oslo agreement. The terms, in fact, were not that good to the Pals, given that Israel could, and did, expand the settlements during the process. You look at all the Pals as a unit. If Arafat stopped fighting, it means all had to do it. Think of the Yishuv and Begin.

.. it is libo-communistic paranoia, severe illness, brain dystrophy, so do not make a joke of her /let me do it - I love it/. As smart a$$ as she is, she is still some sort of contributor, contributor to common STUPIDIZATION of general population. One thing that she said I cannot agree more with her. She said that there are plenty of libo-communists in the World. Characters like Jane Fonda, Barbra Streisand, Michael Moore, Richard Gere, Bobby Fischer, George Clooney, Harry Belafonte, Julia Roberts etc. are great contributors to the World STUPIDIZATION and defeat of common sense. For all of them live of Israeli children, men and women is sensible payment for advance of their cause ? struggle of palestinian murderers, sorry, fighters for liberation of Israel from Jewish occupation. Is not it so, Ronnie? Ah?

What is the reason to even charge somebody in their country of origin if they would be second guessed by a FOREIGN court?

You give me an opportunity, Gabe1 the non-thinker, to list some views I described here over the last few months: 1.Israel did not start any war of choice, other than the Lebanon invasion (1982). Nevertheless, it possesses the property left behind by the Arab refugees. The refugees have lost much and deserve to be compensated. Israel, as the beneficiary, will pay some. (Other Arab countries are also responsible and shoul also pay.) 2. The British creating Jordan in part of the mandate was done legally, according to the League's rules and with their formal approval. It's a lost case. 3.The Partition plan of 1947 was first adopted by the Zionists (1946), then suggested to the UN. Britain did not support it. (Facts and Gabe1?) 4.Generally, killing of terrorists is justified self-defense. Some acts against innocent civilians are legally problematic. 5. West Bank (2 syllables) is shorter than "Judea an Samaria" (7 syllables). Some Fake BG said something about me and women. Was it you?

Our moral sense comes from our GRANDMOTHER, in any language. Maybe what we need is Grandmother Diplomacy: Decency!!

Again, I definitely have a different starting point from yours, & it's a too long & wide debate. But, yes, you can view a certain behaviour as entirely morally wrong (what is "will not be outlawed/will not be viewed .."?), & you can fight to get it outlawed. This is what W. Wilberforce did on the issue of slavery & why it was eventually outlawed. It's about much more than not liking something. I don't know what the exact answer should be reg. the H-bomb (I may arrive at it), & I'm familiar w/ the argument about shortening the war, "the moral trade-off" of which civilians' lives to consider etc. The situation in the ME is 1) different, although it is a kind of a war, & 2) the "needing a tool" is a complete non-argument in this case. Please see my point in #243 to M.Lincoln. In your view, the PA's condemnation (this was the "other side" as well) of the bombings in the beginning, before they started the double-talk, was just play?

You guys must understand where BiG is coming from. He is most likely a Israeli Arab who has no interest in Israel at all. A Fifth Column. And you must all agree that his logic and coherence are lacking lately and his diction is that of a Non Native English Speaker. He cannot plagerize so is cobbling other articles together.HE IS NOT AN ORIGINAL THINKER. Lets examine: 1 All Wars were started by Israel and Israel has a responsibility for the "Refugees" 2.Jordan had a right to 80% of original Palestine 3. Britain had a right to stab the Jews in the back with the 1947 Partition 4. All killings of terrorists are War Crimes and officers must stand trial. 5. JUDEA & SAMARIA are not the names of the territory occupied by the Arabs.The very name is anathema to him. Given time and effort I could come up wiyth more but invite the readers to look for themselves. But lets not forget his prowess with women as he claims

Baz Mann, I didn't say that Plato's argument involved the gods, just that his thinking was developed on the background of paganism. To do "right" (which was also known as a goal in the ancient world) you couldn't rely on any religious principle. With our present monotheistic religion, this is no longer true. We can do good because our religion says so (so we volunteer to do good, in the Plato sense). Unfortunately, religion can also cause us to do bad, especially to people of other religions. P.S. I don't believe in the existence of "ideal good" which Plato might seek from above the shadows. The only real thing is the real world, to my mind. We learn morality from it, and from fights over "a piece of dirt". Our morality is wiser than calling our national land "a piece of dirt". I think you have reached some moral conclusions that are not yet warranted.

I thank you for raising the important issue today. Not many people on this Talkback are interested in exploring the depths so you, and the very few people like you, make it a pleasure for me to participate. Never mind that I disagree with you on this topic. There is always hope other people would see my point. As far as "knowledge", and I look at knowledge of scientific "truths", they are all based on observations and experiments. These are of finite number. In principle, it could be that tomorrow a new observation will not fit our understansing. So there is no absolute scientific knowledge that we are absolutely sure of. The more observations, the more confidence we have in our "knowledge", but a tiny little uncertainty still remains. This age does not depend on science revealed by a god or prophet. It used to be that one could feel,certain when the prophet said something (but even then, you had to know who was a "false prophet"). The correct "morality" is even less certain.

Am I to assume that you also consider Liberals as useful idiots and what about socialists are they a progression or something in between. You have to agree that these systems and democracy have come a long way and are at present almost undistinguasable from each other. Unless of course you call China and Russia democracies and France and Italy Communists.

"So what?" is a very strange response from you. The only way to fight these things legally is through the likes of UN & different conventions/agreements. Not to speak of the "human rights code" that everybody refers to, that means nothing if it's not made to cover terrorism as well. The word "terrorism" rather than having a definition already is as of today a completely washed out term, almost rendered meaningless. It's also irrelevant per se what you call something like this, one can call it "bakery store" if one wishes to. What matters is the content, "the random killing of civilians, targeted for political aims" (if you like) it refers to & leads to being condemned legally. It's on a legal basis & while referring to existing conventions that lawyers & NGO are contesting policies on torture that you're mentioning. Don't you agree? Regards, -

Potobac, let me try to explain the purpose of the procedure I propose in #66. (it was explained to Mark Lincoln already in #134.) Nobody is saying (as yet) that the Israeli officer under discussion has committed a war crime of any kind. He, and now all other Israeli high officers, and also American officers who served in war areas, are in danger that if they set foot in England, some civilian will have them arrested for a "war crime" accusation, justified or unjustified. There will be a trial, and they may go free years later! This is legal chaos in the world. To alleviate this problem, I suggest every complainant should have to file charges in the relevant country first (say, Israel). Then we KNOW that there are even charges. The state (Israel) will have a choice, investigate, cover up, do whatever. If the complainant feels his complaint was not dealt with seriously, he can file again in Britain. My plan takes care of the present chaos. No assumption about Israeli intentions.

Please enlighten us foor unknowing National Enquirer readers as to these famous Hague decisions and who was catef off to there. Try not to change the subject, That was your post NOW THE FACTS MA'AM AND ONLY THE FACTS.

Socrates' rebuttle did not involve the gods, the most important argument he gave was that of a group of people living beneath, all chained and can look only forward and to the side where they can only see the people ahead of them and their shadows (mundane things), since that is all they know, that is all they can talk about. If one of them goes above and sees the real world, he will then realize that all their life beneath was meaningless and their discussion about the shadows is worthless. Once a person reaches this level of awareness, he can see things differently, he can rise above the mundane. Human must endeveour to reach such state, it is extremely difficult to achieve because we all have our prejiduces. It is easy to justify the wrongs as evident on this an many other boards. Should one rise above the mundane, a certain type of peace enters his mind and the talk about the shadows will cease. Both people are killing each other mercilessly over a piece of dirt, a shadow.

PLease advise that know nothing Ronnie Wolman that the USA suffered a humiliating defeat in Vietman as a result of bleeding heart liberals-socialists and communists. Now all of Vietnam is communists and all the Vitnamese are suffering. I guess that is the fate that Ronnie the "Patriot" wants for Israel but this time under the Arab Boot. What an idiot.

Now I know for sure that you are a know nothing blow hard hiding behing bullshit.You cannot even answer a simple series of questions. And to confuse the issue you throw Jesus and religion in. Are you trying to convert me? Are you a convert? You know who I am a Nationalist, Secular Jew who loves his people warts and all. RONNIE WOLMAN WHO ARE YOU?

Cipora, You should know that I really don't know anything I am talking about. So never read my posts. They are not worth your time. Of course, this helps you too. Your comprehension is so poor. I am not going to argue with you anymore. I will suggest that you read my post 63/66 again and, for your own benefit, see that your early post to me mentions facts that are irrelevant to the post and betray a complete lack of understanding of its point. I am saying it for the third or 4th time today, but no more. "I am also quite amazed that for someone who presents himself as Jewish, I have never seen you defend Israel against nazi slander or any other kind of slander." - Cipora I am now the subject? There are lots of Jewish paranoids. You included. Why should I scream if you are there doing this job? In the meantime, I do some thinking. My work is done by others. P.S. I attended Winston's funeral as representative of the State of Israel.

I don't think I made much progress explaining the "other" point of view. First comes reality. Morality comes next. It is not preexistent in the heart of Man, for all we know. If you don't like a certain behavior, you can see if there is an alternative to it. If there isn't, you are stuck. The behavior will not be outlawed, and will not be viewed as entirely morally wrong. I brought up the A bomb situation. Try to outlaw it, and you will get a sense of the difficulty in such a thing. We don't like it; it kills many civilians, etc. But it can bring some benefits, such as shortening a war. (interestingly, both the A bomb and the Dresden bombing, Feb.1945, were used when the outcome of the war was entirely clear. So it was just to shorten the agony.) The fact that you don't like the suicide bomber is not enough to outlaw it. The "other side" feels it needs this tool. In this asymmetric situation, the weak need some tools.

Thanks, maybe I should be clearer. Tolerant is a dictionary word, that's what the HMMM is for. Tolerant is defined as forgiving under provocation. In other words, RUN RUN.

Dear B.Gurion, - when you pack in as much central stuff as you did here we could be debating, & not through these short talkback messages, for weeks. I told you we hold very different positions on this one. Aside that my main concern today was the legal issue & not these things, on just about everything you wrote in this posting I disagree just flat completely. I won't go into it now, but not because I'm shunning the debate - all this can be argued about very well & openly -, only adding to your "we have no absolute knowledge" assertion: are you absolutely sure? (& I don't mean it primarily as a joke). One more thing: I don't hold any view in the sense of "a fixed progression/a constant improvement". This is what people frequently imply when they use the word evolution by the way, in a kind of a semantic mysticism. I find it positive that you don't do that. If there is improvement/progression it's due to something, incl. strife & whole moral battles, like history has shown. Regards,

Historical description of Stalin is correct. What is not so correct it is your statement that liberals are tolerant people. Look at Ronnie. She is furious while spitting her hate of Blockheads /like me/. Contemporary liberals are useful idiots, its absolutely correct, but they are liberals with complete adherence to the Communist Manifesto. And here is no tolerance for any different view. To be not tolerant it should be my privilege /as some perk for being the Blockhead/. Right Ronnie? Say something, do not be ashamed of some banalities...we know what to expect from you..

Hello Mark Lincoln, - forgive me, but you seem to be treating this issue like a nice academic cup of tea. It's typical that you're talking "ethics". This doesn't rouse you to nothing more engaged than what you've presented here? You still wonder about "defense" & "ethics" on the issue of suicide bombings? When Hamas started its (terror) campaign for full measure, it was at the exact point of easing & a gradual ceasing of occupation. This was when there was a horizon of hope for the 1st time in decades. The PA consistently condemned the bombings at the time. Any shred of a reason for defence/resistance there (you do trigger a valid defensive reaction from the other side though, & one you can use) or later? Any of these targeted victims of suic. bomb. representing an imminent threat to Pal. families/others? How more absurd can an abuse of language become? As to the humiliation & despair argument, please see my comment in #180-181, if you like. Of course this still has to do w/ "morals"!

Dont forget every years 100 billions $ weapones british export to arabs countries.British petroleum rather to have their relition ship with the arabs then israel,Yearly benefit is terllion U.S $.Here they sacrifice israel for their interest.It all about dirty politic.

"Still, & this is on official level, some Arab states are holding back & preventing a UN definition." - Ivo So what? Terrorism has a definition already. The UN is not a dictionary. "We can just as well start arguing about rape & child abuse as being "bonding" & torture being "therapy", & leave it to the so-called eye of the beholder." - Ivo Here in the USA our leader calls it "extreme rendition" and "interrogation".

Stalin was a Russian leader who succeeded Lenin as head of the Communist Party and created a totalitarian state by purging all opposition (1879-1953). Liberal are defined as tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition Stalin thought Liberals were useful idiots. HMMMM

The only thing sillier than Hamas spouting that Israel has no right to exist are the people deluded or deranged enough to take it seriously. Hamas is NEVER going to be able to destroy Israel. Anyone who actually thinks it will needs serious psychiatric help. As my Dutch Uncle used to say "wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which gets full first."

she got brin was,They taught them from the child'hood.It is the way they learned to hate.She always going to have kind of excuse.They are many iranian that oppsed the regime in iran.

RE: But france resistence didn't let a finger to save 75000 jews You are so wrong, and Dassault (ex-Bloch, from the famous WWI Bloch aircraft) is ONE example. My family is another one. The french resistants of every political stripe sheltered the jews and gave them the opportunity to fight in their movements for their freedom. That they could not save all is another thing. But to judge its effectiveness, one can just compare to the numbers in eastern europe. Now that french resistants were vastly out armed and outnumbered is a fact, and nobody disputes the fact the the USA and other allies liberated us in the end. It is also true that without the resistants US casualties (already enormous) would certainly have been even huger.

RE:I am sorry, but i misunderatand you! for me the civillians are intochoubles! Yes but in calling Hamas a "resistance group" you are ominously forgetting that most of his victims were innocent civilians in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Netanya etc... Unless that, like your hamas friends, you also consider them "armed to the teeth settlers". RE:I think that the resistance in france was a fake! This is your right, but I strongly disagree with you. + I really don't see your point with Dassault.

Hi Ronnie, - & thanks for comment (did you read the other, former postings in my exchange w/ BG?). I have of course realized people have very diverse positions, espec. reg. "morals", & there isn't much one can do about it. But in the international LEGAL arena, there are already principles in play, i.e. one may assume there is a general agreement around them. If there already exists a valid legal argument on an issue like war crimes, not to speak of the basic set of human rights (which the UN member states all subscribe to), you just have to bring in the issue of terrorism (f.ex. suicide bombings acc. to Amnesty Int. being "crimes against humanity") into this arena & push it w/all possible vehemence. You have to speak loud about the utter hypocrisy involved, otherwise we're just failing miserably. We both know why the definition issue (on terrorism) isn't getting through, & the W. powers are allowing themselves to play it soft because of their other interests being at risk. Regards -

I feel its coming - illiterate. Ronnie, will it help if I would lable me myself. You might run out of your imagination /it is impaired by your liberal-communist natural disabilities/. Ronnie, seriously, do you know what is your problem? You read too much. Sometimes it is advisable to start thinking on your own, unless you are young. LOL. I know that you are not. You are rich, don^t you? So, hire someone to do it for you. Instead of personal trainer, hire personal thinker. Than, you might impress your rich friends?

On this topic, twice ?Let me see. I am not an Arab, Palestinian sympathizer, Anti-Semite, leftist American pontificator, Labor or Meretz supporter, Kadima supporter(?). Ah now I get it. So sorry to take up your time!

Russian fails to convince hamas to reconnizee israel,They need 5-10-20 years re- mobilize ,then by suppotr of iranian and others arabs countries will attack to israel,It was so clear for me long long ago with that ideology musilms have they never will be ready to accept our right of existence.Now my question.Do you still insist israel should negotiate with terrorists group that want destruction of jewish state.

how many labels did you put on me in one message. Just count them. It is very funny...Thank you. However, to the point. You mentioning hamas as the terrorist organization. Fine. How about Fatah? oh..., they are angels with towels over their heads, right? How about brigade of Al Aksa /pardon my poor arabic, what a shame!/. Well, you said that we /on the right, on the RIGHT !!!/want to ignore them. IGNORE??? Never, just KILL all of them. They are THE MURDERERS of our people. It is a shame that Qasams falling on Israel daily and it became everyday routine. Liberal Israeli government should be praying well for their sins - NOT TO execute power of law - to protect Israel and her people. You communists-liberals, self-hating Jews have a lot of Jewish blood on your souls by kissing arafats a$$, giving away Israeli territories, retaliating for murder of Israeli children by shooting at empty fields, for your political correctness, calling suicide murderers ? suicide bombers, etc. So, Ronnie what will be my new set of labels? Impatiently waiting. Sincerely not yours, Observer

But it is eye of the beholder unless there is a universal standard.But when you have countries that are totalitarian,they dont go by recognized international standards. Thats why people keep getting carted off to The Hague because at that point there decisions are based on their own frame of reference and not an international set of laws.The problem is that is you insist that every country adhere to an international set of democratic laws,these countries will opt out and there will be no talking or no forum for talking. Israel and America are not 100% kosher. But they are both defending themselves and in the broader picture democracy. (In Israel,The Israeli Supreme court is the organ for that,balancing with it Israels right to self defence)

"The ethics, or lack thereof, of suicide bombings, may depend on the goals and alternatives the organizations have." - Ben Gurion It is my understanding that suicide is 'immoral' to Jews, Christians and Muslims. One can use the argument that if it is the ONLY way to 'defend" as death would be certain if any other form of action were pursued, then it might be 'moral'. This brings us to the tricky question of "defense." Are the Palestinian suicide bombers "defending" their families and fellows, or are they simply avenging them? My conclusion is that the actions of suicide bombers have nothing to do with "morality" and everything to do with frustration and humiliation.

What do you read,the National Inquirer?

religious people, humanists, whoever. Don't we hear from Muslims, incl. scholars, that to hurt civilians is unislamic? Still, & this is on official level, some Arab states are holding back & preventing a UN definition. It's obvious why they're doing it. My point is that if we can't fight this, vehemently, we are nothing. If that basic right to life can't be protected legally on the international level, the whole edifice of the whole human rights system is gone right there & becomes an absurdity. Isn't the language reg. suicide bombings in calling it "resistance" preposterous? Once you open the door here, you can never shut it again. We can just as well start arguing about rape & child abuse as being "bonding" & torture being "therapy", & leave it to the so-called eye of the beholder.

First of all,you observe observer,but you also lump,along with Gabe Liberals and communists (wheres that Joe McCarthy when everybody needs him?) together. You want to blacklist all of our peoples liberal element to fit your right wing agenda? Its ridiculous. Judaism contains several different elements not one. For me I believe in civil rights. I also believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization that is awaiting the opportunity to arise to the level of defeating Israel thats why I want Israel to be strong.But I also believe we should engage Hamas. If you dont believe public opinion is a factor you are a fool. Public opinion spelled the end of the Vietnam war and it will change the situation in Israel given the chance. We have to put the pressure on Hamas,not ignore them and like it or not they may rise to the occasion one way or the other. Here they are taking things at their own pace gaining brownie points because of Israel is holding back 'talking to terrorists'.

... I agree that some IDF officers act criminally by restraining army while it should be doing complete job - eliminating ALL terrorists, their supporters, promoters, financiers, advocates etc. If your terrorist-murderers choose to use your terrorism-supporting human shields, so be responsible for collateral damage. It is choice of YOUR zombies. Being underdeveloped socially, you do not accept responsibility for your own acts. Too bad for you, because none will do it for you, Mustapha K. Even communist-Ronnie will not do it for you. She will scream and spread more liberal propaganda, but she will not do a thing for you. So, in about couple of centuries, when your people /if they still be here and not with 72 virgins/ would be able to be mature, perhaps they will start act responsibly. Then, we will talk...Meanwhile; continue to complain about IDF...

Since i triggered this point, I feel i should clarify (more). I wasn't talking about "morality", actually this was B.Gurion's word, & certainly not about manners/mores/not even about sex before marriage :) I just implied this basic, intrinsic thing to man, his moral sense, (like when you have a deep sense of unfairness, gross injustice, a clear wrong - on that level) as being behind law & basic to it. The distinction between moral & legal is of course extremely important, but we do uphold certain moral values via our legal system, even preach them in a way, albeit indirectly. The "absolute" part is just the methodology, if you like, in dealing w/ morals, what runs beneath it/in it, whatever you say. Now finally to what all this actually was about. The LEGAL universal condemnation of terrorism, which the UN isn't able to arrive at - shame on it - is not due to basic moral differences among the peoples. This is actually where everybody should be able to meet, all the different - cont

1400 years ago ther were not israel fascism and great american Satan, Your revolution freed you,from great persian empire.And accepted the religion of peace.Sorry hate.Once Stalin said each nation deserved their government.Thats why you did not deserve the smart and inteligent regime of shah, By the way your economy still depend on great Satan.tak your heat out of the sands.

Stop patronizing. Stop taking me to be a fool. Having read all of your posts very carefully, I have come to the conclusion that you are trying to hide the fact that you don't really know what it is you are talking about. As for a country like the UK, they are not necessarily bound to use British law. That depends on the case. What do you think international law is all about, if countries always used their own laws? I think this discussion is pointless to an extreme. I am also quite amazed that for someone who presents himself as Jewish, I have never seen you defend Israel against nazi slander or any other kind of slander. I would also like to know in what capacity you attended Winston Churchill's funeral. You do remember that is what you told me many weeks ago; that you attended Winston's funeral.

What the hell are we afraid of. Israel has made no actions that were illegal. If countries want to arrest Israelis then let them. They will have to prove it and I have no doubt they will lose. So let whomever go wherever and defend the hell out of them. If you act like your guilty then people will believe you are guilty.

I thought even the Arabs had conceeded by now that there was no "massacre" in Jenin, and that it was the usual propaganda (lies) from the Palestinians. The UN said no massacre took place. Maybe in Iran you're taught it's a massacre - aswell as the Holocaust being a myth, Zionists controlling the world etc etc etc.

"If someone does not apply their `ethics` to themselves and their friends and family with the same ardor as they do to those they don`t like, are they ethical at all?" - Mark Lincoln You know what such people are called, hypocrites. In my discussion with Ivo we were not discussing situational ethics. The ethics, or lack thereof, of suicide bombings, may depend on the goals and alternatives the organizations have. This is not a settled issue, and the UN is working on it.

Plato's thinking was a product of paganism. Justice and good deeds were only options. You could please one god acting one way, and another by acting the opposite way. Monotheism solved this difficulty. We still need this type of religion to enhance our sense of obligation to do justice. Giving money to the poor is not done involuntarily. But unfortunately, religion also come with a package of old notions that go against "justice" to the Natives. At such (hopefully rare) situation, force is a good teacher on what the right thing to do is. This is regrettable, and some of us can predict the outcome before the war breaks out. But what do you do with the majority?

I dont see any rubbish in my post.Except the raelity.You cant deny the execution of few hundreds thousands innocent peoples by your mollahs regime.You are one of the fanaticis that you have some interest with that cruel regime.The futur of iran depend on the whole nation.Not on you.By the way your president is fascism.

"You [BG] used the word evolving. Like most people I`m acknowledging the fact that moral standards are changing, & we (at least some of us) ARE learning," -Ivo Interesting you don't use the word "evolving". Evolution has in principle no "goal". It adapts to new circumstances. Ape can become Man, but when circumstances reverse, Man might evolve into Ape again. Your view betrays a progression towards some fixed point or constant improvement. "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old" - Proverbs 8:22 Thus spoke "Wisdom"=the scientific knowledge, before the Rabbis reinterpreted "her" to mean Torah. That was the ancient view, developed by the Egyptians and picked up be Israel. In this scientific age, we have no absolute knowledge. All knowledge is "probably correct". This includes moral standards as well. The question of the A bomb and fire bombing is very relevant to the suicide bombing. Hamas fights against the Occupation. It's war. So what to

If it walks like a war criminal, talks like a war criminal and acts like a war criminal, IT IS A WAR CRIMINAL. Remember when Gen. Dan Halutz ordered the Air Force to bomb an apt. building killing 11 innocent children. When asked, His war criminal style reply was, "he lost no sleep over the deaths of innocent children by orders he gave the pilot and there is just a light flutter when the 10000 kilogram bomb leaves the wing. Remember the similar remarks of General Dan Harel after he ordered the deliberate targeting of the Fiji UN base at Kfar Kana that killed 110 innocent Lebanese who fled there to escape the artillery bombardment. Remember current MK Ehud Yatoms almost gleeful remarks on public radio when he said he took a rock and smahed the heads of 2 Palestinians who were lying on the ground with their head behind them. Yes; if it walks like a war criminal, talks like a war criminal and acts like a war criminal, IT IS A WAR CRIMINAL and must be sent to the Hague.

Your argument does not hold water. It is the very same argument used by the Nazi officers at the Nuremberg trials. Following orders did not cut then, and will not cut it now. Those who commit crimes against humanity must be punished, the officer who gave the order and the conscript who did the deed.

Its about understanding. Its about how you dump the liberals and the socialists and the communists in one convenient lump. Its about common sense and an idea of how the political systems work to some extent. Its about what ticks even behind religion. Do you understand what democracy is? Its liberty. the same route as liberal. Communism is totalitarian like fascism. Do you understand or do I need some letters after my name to give you some confidence in what Im saying? Read the words and try to understand and maybe we can learn something. I too am interested in the well being of the Jewish people. I also have my own way of thinking that would make the jewish people secure.It is also shared my many people. Remember there are several parties in Canada,in America and in Israel thats relative to their constituents.There is not one type. I believe in a balanced approach to politics between left and right for business and justice should be strong as well as social consciousne

When I was young, there were people - mostly on the left - who espoused "situational ethics". I called it "suityourseflish ethics." A religious fanatic will tell you there are absolute ethics, unchanged for thousands of years. A question for you Mr. Ben Gurion. If someone does not apply their 'ethics' to themselves and their friends and family with the same ardor as they do to those they don't like, are they ethical at all?

In Plato's Reupblic, Thrasymachus told Socrates that "Justice is the advantage of the stronger, and that just acts are never performed voluntarily". Socrates refutes Thrasymachus, in short saying that man who rises above the mundane reaches a state high of morality (no divinity is needed)where he will be just without being forced to do so and live happily as a result of his morality. I read the flowery argument of Socrates, but unfortuantly, I believe Thrasymachus is right. If we consider the Arab Israeli conflict, Israel made peace with Egypt only after 1973 war, made the Oslo accords after the first Intifida, and started to accept the idea of a Palestinian state after the second Intifida which brings credence to Thrasymachus premise that just acts are never performed voluntarily.

nothing I am saying would make any sense. I call war as WAR, I call defense ? as Preventive Defense, I call for elimination of terrorists, their supporters, promoters, advocates and associates with no regard for their age, gender and other politically correct or incorrect features. Just surgically remove this cancerous tumor. PERIOD. I do not use labels, slogans or names, as you do. Moreover, I love peace no less than you do, Ronnie, but I do not close my eyes upon reality and what action it will require for our children to enjoy Justice and murders-free society of nations. Fershteist, Ronnie? Of cause not. Because I am what...shit-head or bigot or something else from your arsenal of people labeling tactic, right? In you next message, please call me some new name. At least it will be a bid more entertaining.

"The mullacracy is Iran is among the most evil and despotic regimes to ever exist in the world." - Jane The Mullahs are not what I admire in government. I am opposed to government by cliques of right-wing religious fanatics, even when there is a degree of democracy. Your description is flawed Jane. Evil? Evil means destructive. The Mullahs are not particularly distructive. Not particularly constructive either. Despotic? A despot is an absolute dictator, and given to tyranny. There is no despot in Iran as there was under the Shah we gave them. While despicable, the Mullahs are not as evil and despotic as the Bush Junta.

Israel DID investigate Mohammed Al-Durra case. At first they took the blame, but soldiers later insisted that they did not shoot that kid. It was then found out that they could not have possibly shot him, because he as completely covered from israeli fire - concrete barrier they were hiding behind was intact and it would have required at least dozen full mags emptied to it to get through it by rifle fire. Also, bullet holes in the wall indicated that they had been fired from another direction. You are right on one thing: it was not an accident. But shooter was not israeli. By the way, where is you concern about palestinians who protect terrorists, who purposely have killed dozens of israeli kids? Hypocrisy, anyone?

Your selective answer is quite a piece of work as usual. What is the difference between Liberals, Socialists or Communists or just to make it easy for you Democracy. Which type you ask-pick your choice. or anything in between ie social/democrats liberal/socialists etc. Just so I know who I am dealing with what is your socio economic and educational backgroung? I certainly don't hide my credentials whatever they may be.

Your selective answer is quite a piece of work as usual. What is the difference between Liberals, Socialists or Communists or just to make it easy for you Democracy. Which type you ask-pick your choice. or anything in between ie social/democrats liberal/socialists etc. Just so I know who I am dealing with what is your socio economic and educational backgroung? I certainly don't hide my credentials whatever they may be.

Your selective answer is quite a piece of work as usual. What is the difference between Liberals, Socialists or Communists or just to make it easy for you Democracy. Which type you ask-pick your choice. or anything in between ie social/democrats liberal/socialists etc. Just so I know who I am dealing with what is your socio economic and educational backgroung? I certainly don't hide my credentials whatever they may be.

Your selective answer is quite a piece of work as usual. What is the difference between Liberals, Socialists or Communists or just to make it easy for you Democracy. Which type you ask-pick your choice. or anything in between ie social/democrats liberal/socialists etc. Just so I know who I am dealing with what is your socio economic and educational backgroung? I certainly don't hide my credentials whatever they may be.

Your selective answer is quite a piece of work as usual. What is the difference between Liberals, Socialists or Communists or just to make it easy for you Democracy. Which type you ask-pick your choice. or anything in between ie social/democrats liberal/socialists etc. Just so I know who I am dealing with what is your socio economic and educational backgroung? I certainly don't hide my credentials whatever they may be.

Suggesting that Israel retaliate against a British kidnapping of a military officer is NOT hyperbole. And, pointing out that the Brits have killed more Arabs unjustly than the Israelis could ever dream of is fact. Over 100, 000 dead Iraqis and for what? Britian has given in to is Arab loving left, and Britian has many deep and nuianced policy objectives-- WE DON'T. Our only concern is the defense of our homeland. Years and years of diplomatic attacks, intifada, threats of boycotts and guess what - WE ARE STILL IN CONTROL.And, by the way, we beat the british in israel and we could do it again.

to put on their clothes when arriving at European airports? Is that next? Ha'aretz did not publish my previous post on this subject, but let us face it, whatever Israel does is merely a pretext and excuse for the Jew-haters out there. This should all be very instructive to the youngest Israelis of the world our people still live in.

As I understand your thesis, it is that the rest of the world should believe that the Israeli govenment is to be trusted to try its military men for the commission of the war crimes that the Israeli government has ordered them to commit. Perhaps you might want to rethink this (in the unlikely event that you are interested in these criminals being brought to justice).

To many people there's a direct link here to "absolutism" & "moralism". I am not so afraid of this word. The reason is almost a banality. Unless we're talking about some kind of "temporarily held position" on an issue, when we argue & really mean that something is wrong in the moral sense (not only against our interests), this is the only way we can do it. Just because of the way our system works. It's like w/ anything else we really mean & assert as really being there. It's the principle of anti-thesis, it's true even if both parties to an argument are wrong. This is why one absolute /even the concept of absolutes so often only ends up replaced by another one. As to Hiroshima, Dresden & the likes I am seriously aware of the dilemma they pose. Wouldn't be evasive about it at all. I admit not having an answer to it, only adding that these pertain to a war, & partic. end of war. It's not an easy one at all, & it should be dealt with. Regards, -

Slow down a bit, Ben Gurion. We obviously have a difference of opinion in the realm of morals, & a basic one, including where our moral sense comes from. But you're getting me wrong (& whether I'm "religious" is beside the point). I'm not implying anything in the sense that "we're evolving towards an ideal moral standard". I'm not dum. You used the word evolving. Like most people I'm acknowledging the fact that moral standards are changing, & we (at least some of us) ARE learning, hopefully there is even some general growth /realizations. Since we have our different backgrounds & different references (incl. the different religious books) we've invented this thing called pluralism - thank God. So we're all intitled to pursue these problems from where we are, & in freedom. That should remove all threats as to an imposed, one ideal moral standard. I think I've understood this, don't worry. You may be wary of using the word "absolute", & of course w/ good reason. - cont.

Perhaps the animosity towards the British stems from the fact that while you occupied 'Palestine', Holocaust survivors were being stopped from leaving Europe and heading for Palestine. Additionally, I don't think many Jews/Israelis forget how the British aided the Arabs in the 48 war of independence, and even attacked Israeli positions from the air. It also seems like the British ride the wave of hypocrisy often. Whilst the British having had an assassination policy in N.I and now in Iraq & Afghanistan - they STILL deride Israel for doing the exact same. Maybe you guys need to check yourself, before you check others.

Muhammed al Dura was killed by Palestinian cross fire. Many investigators have looked into this. www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/06/fallows.htm

I am sorry, but i misunderatand you! for me the civillians are intochoubles! I dont agree blowing up,murder by bullet or knife,bombs or anyother method. If occur in a defence or trying to defend, like a bystander i can understand,but i don't agree. But i have to made myself clear: I think that the resistance in france was a fake! Do you know dassault, the owner or dassault planes, like mirage... He is know to been a partisan. But france resistence didn't let a finger to save 75000 jews and others that was managed to german to die! Who save france was USA, and by 67, the great people of france didn't deliver, the bought airplanes and ships to the state of israel, leting them to be aniquilated! Now the jewish community in france is in a great peril, but the autorities does nothing! You have a referent that combat as resistance. I have french friends that his referents and parents were killed in concentration camps. The money stolen.... It is a joke talk about france military/resist

If the resistence though: liberty,fraternity,iguality, and only kill collaborators and the germanys soldiers, they should save the jews and others form certain deth in the camps. They did nothing!! Also i have people that was dead in france! Do you know who dassault was? Like now, that an jew was MURDERED because he was jew, and the police told it was a commun crime! Ugly france that support Saddam Hussein! Who backstabst USA. Long life to USA! The best country and friend that sombody can trust!

because maybe you will have to fork out some charity for the poor?

RE:Jewish settlers, armed to the teeth, first of all, i said that the settlers are armed because they have to face deadefull challange by terrorist. And, they are not fully equipped, because, if they do so, they couldn't work. They carry some guns to self defense.And wait idf to support them in case of larger treat. i was responding to another talkback. I have a great simpaty with the settlers. 'Of course, but I am sure that for you, the kids and others, blown up in buses or nightclubs cannot be considered civilian either.' you are wrong. They are innocent civilians hurted in a no-defensive, coward attack, by so called militias. 3) Again, by comparing the hamas killers to the french resistance you are insulting a country (France) and my family that was part pf the resistance. They never killed innocent civilians , only german soldiers and french collaborator militia - I desagree, if i belive in what the so called resistence did, france would not need any help from usa

Now that will be hard to explain away as anything but a clear and present policy of targeting children. Now if these Terrorist weren`t involved they have nothing to fear, on the other hand if they indeed were involved, then why should they get away with these war crimes? They may be heroes in Intestine, but War Criminals aren`t heroes out in the real world. Stay put in Intestine and share VIRGIN AND MONEY and rewards among yourself, run for higher office in order to protect yourself when the urge to enter the real world sets in. DOCTORS RECOMMEND Free INTESTINE.

Here is the crux of the matter, Ivo. "We may be "evolving" (another questionable word) towards it (ideal moral standard?) or rather discovering it while learning along the way" - Ivo Who has determined that absolute standard? Are you religious? And even if so, when was the last time you spoke to God? Ivo, do you condone the use of the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima? It killed many civilians, many more than all the suicide bombers put together. Did it have a justified cause? If not, should you not be working now on a treaty to ban all nuclear weapons? They preceded the suicide bomber. And if you don't like to deal with the nuclear issue, do you justify the fire bombing of Tokyo, killing over 100,000 civilians (if I remember correctly)? Ivo, morality is developed by Man. First come the circumstances (reality). Than people agree that one type of behavior should not be used (because of various possible deep reasons, one being that it is too nasty and its goals can be achieved otherwise.

..so how do you suggest to solve this problem? You can read my posts 63/66 for a solution. Regards, BG

Cipora, the problem is you don't pay attention to the aim of the post. In my post 63/66 I suggest a way of solving the problem posed to Israel by various European laws. Bear this in mind all the time, once you have COMPLETED reading the post. You will then see: 1. I never say Israel is party to the ICC. Moreover, this question is IRRELEVANT to the post. 2. The ICC law is mentioned as some "international standard". This can be used to convince Europe to refine their laws in general (going beyond Israel). 3. Israel does not rush to investigate bad situation. Usually it takes a public uproar. But this again is beside the point. The General does not KNOW even if there is an accuasation of war crime against him. He could go to England and then get surprised. My suggestion is intended to remove the element of surprise. This is THE REASON for my post. 4. The legal proceedings in England are based on British law only. Do I even imagine otherwise? Please read more CAREFULLY.

To say Liberalism and Internationalism is communism is completely assinine. Socialism doesnt even mean communism. But I understand,Gabe,from a right wing perspective,everything east looks communist. England is a semi socialist country that has many less desperate people in it than does America,where the death rate for murders are greater than almost anywhere in the world. Canada too is the same as you know. You are talking a lot of crap about Liberalism/Scoialism and Communism all being the same.

All reason has gone out the windw. Any jew hater,antisemite is now ready to come out of the woodwork. There was a Jewish expression after WWII, after the Nuremberg trials ,after the nazis admitted the masterplan of the annihialation of the Jews of people during 1939-1945. "NEVER AGAIN" It will not happen again that the jew haters will be able to kill off generations of people and take their stuff. It does not matter hw much psycholgy or spin is used. There may be some takers but the smart thinkers the ones who know politics andhistory exist. Try as you will for as long as you want NEVER AGAIN ALONE are we going into the fire.

The mullacracy is Iran is among the most evil and despotic regimes to ever exist in the world. Like the Nazis and Communists before them they have taken perversion of human rights to a new level of horror. The radical Islamists have succeeded in doing only one thing and that is brainwashing some of their people to actually believe they are free. But rest assured, there is a strong and growing anti-theocratic movement in Iran that will ultimately topple the mullahs and bring genuine freedom to the Iranian people. It's only a matter of time until the mullahs are sent to their 72 virgins in the afterlife and it won't be a moment too soon.

My point was that since all of these suits are politically motivated it would be an abject lesson to a extraterritorial jurisdiction to overwhelm it with legitemate but numerous lawsuits to prove that thir legislation on this amtter is ridiculous. Israel has hundreds of detainees that have not yet been charged and it would not be that hard to get a straw man to file a claim in all etraterritorial jurisdictions in Europe. The lawsuits would probably fail but the point would have been made.

First of all stop threatening if you perceive that your intelligence is being impuned. The Liberals and Socialist/Communists are one face of the same coin. Internationalism.And that is were the word BLOCKHEAD was coined as they both believe in building blocks-Workers. But on the serious side.The Communists/Liberals/Socialists have been responsible for millions of dead throughout history and not even counting Slave Labour and False imprisonments. But your love of the British and your way of life blinds you to reality. The British have killed and displaced more people that even Stalin but you are a staunch defender of their way of life. The British lied to the Jews and Arabs alike but there is honour among thieves so it is OK. But the peoples from the COLONIES will in the near future get even and Britain will become if it is not already a backwater country sliding into oblivion.

My sincere symphaties to you. It must be very unsettling to find out that your protege and hero is a plegarizer and prbably an arab or at least an Arab Homicidal symphatizer. I must now gloat as I told you so. His symphaties for Abbas, Hamas and all other Arab positions are well know. Heck he cannot even bring himself to utter the words JUDEA and SAMARIA.And the Misrepresentation of the League of Nations Mandate, and the ICC and the ICJ pronouncements are so pro-Arab. It it walks like a duck, smells like a duck than it is a duck.And you foufgt for an Arab albeit an Israeli one to use the name of a Jewish patriot. Shame on you. I have also noticed that his posts are getting shorter and less coherant as befits a Non Native English speaker. Cannaot find any Jerome Segal posts or scared that people are checking out. Which one do you think it is Danite? Original Thinker he is not!!!!!!!!!!!

The explosive belt doesn't come down from the skies, nor is it bought in a supermarket. There would be no mission without the whole infrastructure, involving minute operational planning, behind it & ready to make it happen. Plus the whole ideological back-up. Plus the year-long incitement. The whole point is that this is a strategic weapon, w/ clear political goals. Another point: you will always have deep political controversy around the justification of a "liberation movement's" goals. A court would be extremely wary of weighing in on that. The issue of former terrorists becoming respectable statesmen doesn't really bother me. It seems to have become acceptable practice. The question would only be whether they still are involved in terrorism or have renounced the practice in absolute terms, especially after assuming real political responsibility/getting into real politics. Regards,-

(not being a nightwolf, I'm answering you now) Well, there's a difficulty w/ words, I'm not sure how you're using the word "morality". I prefer "morals"/"the moral category" & it's obvious that it comes before the legal one & is part of its basis. We may be "evolving" (another questionable word) towards it or rather discovering it while learning along the way, which includes making our mistakes. But basically/philosofically speaking, there's in my view nothing relativistic about it. That would render it meaningless. Maybe we differ at this point. As to different motives for crimes, of course I acknowledge this aspect & I'm aware of it being part of normal jurisprudence. But it has little meaning here, as far as I'm concerned. It would if it was about the poor creatures who let themselves getting recruited for suicide missions f. ex.. They could even be absolved altogether, I don't know, put it on despair or even madness. That's not the point. - continued

Can you post a copy of that letter. I have copies of the letters that the zionist, Y. Shamir send to the Nazis to form a coalitiion against the Britisch to defeat them ens in particular to imple,met a terrorist campaign against them as they did. Manny poeople do not know that terrorism and bombings were introduced to the me by the zionist in there struggle to create their illigitimate state as one Jewish rabby sated.

Now that will be hard to explain away as anything but a clear and present policy of targeting children. Now if these Generals weren't involved they have nothing to fear, on the other hand if they indeed were involved, then why should they get away with these war crimes? They may be heroes in Israel, but War Criminals aren't heroes out in the real world. Stay put in Israel and share medals and rewards among yourself, run for higher office in order to protect yourself when the urge to enter the real world sets in. Free Palestine!

It freed us from Israeli fascism and exploitation and from the Big Satan, America. Now, you can no longer place spies in Tehran. We will break your necks if you do. The rest of your remarks are rubbish.

The tactics you talk about are UNIVERSAL. 'degrading names, slogans and other means of their propaganda' this is just used by Liberals and communists?????? Thisis constant here and mught I add used most often by the right wing here on Talkback

As you see I'm illiterate. Why do you seem so confused. Whenever I leave a post here you talk about Iran and its regime. Does cruelty of Iran government justify IDF and ...? Or you're just unhappy that I read Haaretz and send some posts from time to time? Are youhere to get approval from all readers? Are you a Persian Jew who feels oppressed or treated badly by muslims? If Iranian government excuted many people, would it mean there was no massacre in Jenin?

And God said, let there be man! Let him destroy the Earth I give to them, and then let him wonder in despare why I have forsaken them.

If they are innocent they will lose nothing and will prove that Israel is a real democracy!!

Referring to the article i must confess that although i do understand the idf's point of view two things must be quite clear: 1) there is nothing that war on terror can justify, if we want to keep ourself well distinguished form the terrorists; 2)the principle of accountability is a miliar stone of democracy,if a military commander is proven guitly of killing civilians, no mater why, should responde to the charges. this two points, if followed can enable us to distinguish from the terrorist and albeit not so usefull in the short term it surely define our society (western countries and israel as well) as a true democratic and developed society

Lets me remind you some of the crimes mollahs your favourite terrorists regime did to iranians peoples.In 1979 thousand of great generals and ministers has been executed by orders of mollahs and by the hands of palestinians terrorists.Since 1979 till now 100 thousands of youngs and well educated males and females iranians has been executed.There were many virgin females has been rape befor the execution by pasdars,Because regarding to shariah law in islam you can't execute the virgins female.Unlesse she will be rape by some body who believe in islam.Almos million iranians has been killed between iran and iraq war.In early 1990 iranians terrorists exploded the israel ambasy and the jewish community in argantine that they killed 100 of innocent peoples.Establishment of hezballah terrorists organiziation in lebenon by iran.Finacing of the palestinian terrorists groups and training suicide bombers.Yasmine get a real education and try to fight for democracy in iran.And stop being hater.

Like in Belgium, the brits will have to discard these arrogant laws (like thay have the moral right to judge anybody). Soon Brit officers could be tried for atrocities in Irak, or Ireland. Their grand fathers (for the ones still alive) could be tried for their crimes in India and elsewhere (not to mention Palestine), etc...etc...

IDF officers are welcomed to come anytimes to the US where they will get better info and better training than they could in Britain.

Gee you are prosecutor, judge and jury. It is not because a palestinian group highjack a british law that guilt is established. British tribunal are not stalinist (nor franquist for your sake) ones, and they are not YET islamist ones.

RE:Jewish settlers, armed to the teeth, With your logic we can also say then, that the vast majority of americans cannot be considered civilians. RE:Palestinian guerillas attacking and even killing these settlers Of course, but I am sure that for you, the kids and others, blown up in buses or nightclubs cannot be considered civilian either. Again, by comparing the hamas killers to the french resistance you are insulting a country (France) and my family that was part pf the resistance. They never killed innocent civilians , only german soldiers and french collaborator militia.

Do not overestimate London's influence in the EU. Especially has GB has been a pain the butt of the EU since it joined. Also, I don't see Germany accepting such a boycott, it would certainly awaken some historical flashbacks.

Should a law which is a threat to Americans and Israelis be changed? So where can ordinary citizens go for justice? Now Hamas and Israel are in equal position, both sides are terrorists! Terrorist Governments! So change the heading of the article to:We, Israeli terrorists have less freedom than Palestinian terrorists!

BBC and some other medias showed a film several times of a Palestinian little child (Mohammad Al Dura or something like that) who had hidden himself behind his father, both behind a barrel during a clash in 2000. The IDF soldier shot the child right on the head. It was not an accident!!! There are so many other examples. Any comment about it?

Lets all get together and push to expell Israel from the UN, withdraw all the billions on aid that they receive gratis every year, Ban them from arriving to any other country make their passports worthless, only then this terrorist vstate will change ...

Shalom, Danite, You are one hundred per cent right. You are right substantively, and I hope, eventually under international law. Shabat Shalom, Cipora

Individuals can file suits for war crimes only under the Geneva Conventions, as far as I have determined. Even then, only countries which have universal jurisdiction allow the filing of a case under the treaty which normally gives jurisdictions to states. The countries that have universal jurisdiction in Europe are:Belgium, Denmark, France, Spain, Switzerland. You would have to find a humanitarian group to file suit, and convince a court that Article 3 of the Fourth Geneva Convention apllies to Palestinians.

I read extremely carefully. In post 63, you refer to the ICC. Israel is not a party to the ICC. Even if she wanted to prosecute under the ICC, she would first have to join the treaty and ratify it. Machover is not an idiot. He knows only too well that very few governments in Europe would start a case against an Israeli general. As far as I know, only states can initiate proceedings under the ICC treaty. That is not true under Geneva. Jurisdiction can be delegated by the state. In UK, the Judiciary Committe of the House of Lords decided in the Pinochet case that the delegation can be interpreted as confering universal jurisdiction on individual citizens. That is the only reason that Machover was able to file suit. If Israel thought that one of her officrs committed war crimes, she could easily prosecute either under local criminal laws, or under Geneva Conventions. Take it up with the Israeli government.

Any similarity between Hamas and freedom fighters is coincidental and designed to decieve.They are "fighting for their freedom" in order to gain the means to destroy another people.They are tyrants in a state of rebellion, they do not ascribe to the human rights agenda or respect for others.They are like criminals in jail "fighting to be free"Regards.

**We call these people Blockheads...** - to label people as bigots, racists, blockheads etc is typical liberal tactics when instead of factual arguments and clear, unbiased view of reality they use degrading names, slogans and other means of their propaganda. Is it different from communist^s methods? No way. It is the same liberal way of impose their devastating ideology upon masses of people. Another very similar feature is that liberals, under slogans of peace and love advocating suffering of other people (Israeli citizens) by expense of other people. It is OK to watch murdering Israeli children and other innocent men and women /like one guy being murdered just today/ by arab sub-human murderers. It is OK because, like communists liberals call it ^^palestinian struggle for liberation^^. None is more harmful for peace than those politically correct liberals. They are very evil of contemporary society. So, Ronnie, communist party would be proud of you.

"Anybody with a clear record will have nothing to fear from the law." Ben Alofs Ha Ha Ha. What planet do you live on? Are you for real. That's what they used to say in Alabama before convicting some poor black guy on some trumped up charge.

Danite, not for the first time I am saying that Hamas are terrorists. But they also fight for their nations's freedom. Our language has not yet developed the ability to distinguish (in one word) between terrorists according to their various motivations. The Eskimos distinguish between many types of snow. I suggested (jokingly) the term Freerrorists for Hamas. Hamas also wants to destroy Israel. (They actually indicate nowadays that they will accept the 1967 lines, but I ignore this for now.) So at this stage they fight for their liberation from the Occupation (making them freedom fighters) while pursuing other odious goals, and using odious means. This is all plainly true, even if some want their terrorist side to obscure the other side.

Hello Ivo, If you look at the actual action of terrorists, they are pretty much the same. So to equate them you just need a dictionary. An international convention could also look at the motives of such actions, and available alternatives. Even regular courts take account of such issues when determining punishment, or even whether a crime took place. Murder could be murder, but if done as some form of self-defense it may not be. A theft is a theft. But if you steal to feed your family, there is less of a stigma. Morality is not a fixed subject. Humans have evolved it over many years, and are continuing to do so. In all of the above I did not even address the issue of practicality. Former communists become respectable heads of state, and former terrorists become statesman. Example: Yitzhak Shamir of Israel. Why do you think this is so? In any case, I thought the legal issues you raised were interesting. As far as morality, I have a less idealistic view than yours. Regards, BG

It is really unbelievable that official persons from Israel get in trouble because of travelling to the UK. Has any British been comdamned for what they did in theirs colonies? First of all in my opinion a few thousand Americans should be arrested for war crimes in the whole world. Imperialism is always afficeting millions of dead people. Why is it forbidden to defend your own country against arabs who tried several times to destroy it and why is it OK to sell weapons on the entire world and starting wars like Vietnam and supporting war as in Yugoslavia by financing the local warlords? May anybody explain this to me?

Cipora, every time you astonish me with your comments. Would you please be careful READING? Hello! Of course the British court follow British low. Who says otherwise? Here is what I say in #66: "The international standard for war crime situations is that accusations should first be investigated by the State with jurisdiction over the matter."- BG My point in that posting is that the International STANDARD (as in the ICC example) is that the country of origin should attempt to prosecute first. Conclusion: Israel can approach Britain with the suggestion that such a standard (recognized internationally, thus not merely self-serving) should imply a complaint to be filed in Israel first. That is my suggestion that can resolve the legal uncertainty that the British law creates. Stop distorting everything I am saying, Cipora. Learn to read please, and do it CAREFULLY, please. You have a big problem there, coming up time and again!

Benjamin, - like quite a few others you're mixing all the other questions w/ the question of war in general. Please, keep the distinctions due to distinct matters. You ever heard about a war where civilians weren't hurt? Yes, there are dilemmas, borderline cases & even war crimes. But you have to distinguish between the choices taken, weighing the risks when you're after a (non-civilian) target & a deliberate choice to target civilians. These are miles apart morally, whatever you say. You seem to be demanding a 100% "clean" war, where you can control your methods so no innocent civilian is killed. You have some suggestion as to what else should be done to protect Israeli civilians? Any specific order to kill Pal. civilians you're pointing to - you know of any? You also completely disregard the differences as to aims & to order of sequence: Hamas f.ex. introducing its terror once the peace process started & onward, when occupation was in fact gradually ceasing.

I wasnt sure if I understood, did you say that Hamas are freedom fighters?

This is all politcaly motivated.It is a way to try to demoralise and unnerve Israeli officers.This has the smell of a legal lynch mob.Israeli officers and soldiers are not committing war crimes.If they are then every commander who has been to war has given one order or another that has resulted in civilian deaths.If Israeli officers are war criminals then all officers are and those that serve the Arab regimes are on the level of the gestapo.This is total bullshit from A to Z.This is war against Israel by other means.

"Many times Israel is reluctant to investigate, believing that charges of war crimes are motivated by political or anti-semitic reasons." - Ben Gurion Understood. But you can understand that I have seen too many instances where an investigation was tanked. Was deliberately falsified. Israel would only receive the cooperation of Europe on these matters so long as Israel was seen as giving fair hearing and trials.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. The only troubling point I find is when you start to distinguish between different types of terrorism. Yes, of course there are differences, like f.ex. the IRA is different from Hamas or any other differentiation one would want to make. But this is a fallacy when dealing with the issue morally & therefore legally. The idea behind a UN definition is to be able to condemn, ban & do away w/ this plague altogether, to not to allow anyone the path of using this method. What Hamas does is absolutely in no way better than what's perpetrated by Al Qaida. So much less when you take into account at which point they introduced this thing. Some Arab countries obstruct the UN process only to be able to allow Hamas this weapon against Israel. This position is morally blind & completely hypocritical, & should be fought vehemently. Regards, -

What bar is there to Israel arresting Abbas and Haniya, Mashal and other Arab leaders and putting them on trial for war crimes and just for good measure handing one over to the ICJ for a test case. That would certainly gum up the works in a hurry as I bet these extraterritorial War Crime jurisdictions would back pedal so fast with legislation as to make anybody's head spin. I am having problems to understant how these do gooders have time to worry about Israel when they have yet to contend with Radic, Milosovic, Saddam Hussein, Carlos, Pinochet and others without any tangible results and not counting RWANDA, DARFUR, SYRIA, KOREA.

Gee, guess why? Or does it take a rocket scientist to figure it out? In the world court you actions are as bad if not worst than terrosists. The only difference is that you are state sponsored. Otherwise, you have ordered to kill innocent women and children. You are as bad. But because of you state connections you are War Criminals. Ben

You are right that today there is no difference between the socialists and the communists. Before the war, there was a big difference, and the Socialist Party was the only party where Jews could find a home. Today they are all internationalists, and at the same time ant-globalists. Please don't blame the civil servents; this has to do with one lawyer using international treaty for his own ends. By the way, your father was a wise man.

Beautifully said, my friend. There are usually two types of articles that I call ?Banner day in the anti-Semitic land?. The first type is when they all get to sit down with Amira and ?cry? over the ?victims?. Second, is when there is a hint of Israeli/Jews humiliation, depravation or suffering, which can ?put a smile on their faces?. On the personal note, I would let them spew their Jew hating venom all they want. The more they spew and the more they realize that it leads nowhere, the faster they will get tired. Besides, they will only do this until? next round of ?cartoons? I guess? And lastly, a word to every brave defender of Jewish homeland. The US and even Australia are not such bad alternatives, if that is the studies in English that you want. I feel your outrage, but Europe is still up side down on terror views due to the appeasement mode to the dangers of the radical Islam.

"An absurd situation has been created here," one senior officer told Haaretz. "Senior Hamas figures - Khaled Meshal, and soon, certainly, Ismail Haniyeh as well - can roam the world at will, but Kochavi has to stay home for fear of being arrested. These are people who have given direct orders to carry out attacks against civilians, but now they are politicians who enjoy protection." - Haaretz In fact, British law does not protect politicians. We all remember the Pinochet case. Also, following Almog's case, PM Sharon remarked to British FM Straw (at the UN?) that he (Sharon) may not be able to visit Britain. Straw replied that he was "almost" certain nothing would happen to Sharon, but concluded that he couldn't guarantee it since the courts are independent. This shows that British law does not exclude politicians, even heads of government. The Hamas people cannot be accused of War Crimes, but perhaps of Crimes Against Humanity. (Not Meshaal, probably. Need some direct orders.)

No need to be rude, but since you are American, you are just plain irresponsible for your choice of words.Besides you do even sound like an intelligent person. My unintelligent friend, you mean Israel is on stolen Palestine land, numbnuts.

This is typical of right wing BLOCK thinking.We call these people Blockheads.They can only think in blocks.Its either right of the line or left,nothing in between. This kind of Black and White thinking has caused every major human made catastrophe throughout history. Liberals are pulling the world together,but Blockheads think that is 'Appeasement' Another word the Blockheads have corrupted is 'Peace'. Peace is not a bad word. But the word 'peace' has been twisted by the blockheads.They would like people to believe that the word 'Peace' is disgusting.

Playing ketchup?

It is not surprising that you do not see fundamental things that equalize communists and liberals. Take a look at the Manifesto of Communist Party and compare it with today?s liberal agenda. They are IDENTICL, poor soul. IDENTICAL. So, who needs to get back to school? Now about the LAW and ORDER. Where did I mention not to be law obedient? Just the opposite, I say that the main obligation of any government (including Israeli) to PROTECT THEIR CITIZENS ! Do you have problem with it? Or this is against the law? My father use to say that wisdom is limited and stupidity is not. Thank you for proving his rightness.

MALCOLM That is the problem.We are governed by the Brusselles Directive,and it is getting the citizens in England very annoyed.It goes in every other thing we want,do,and the rest.We have had it up to HERE As we say. The many complaints each and everyday goes on that Britain is led by the nose with our affairs,and it has to stop.We have elected a wrong government,if only people had the sense not to vote for Blair,things may have changed for the better.Now,even staunch laborites are sorry they did,but a bit late in the day is it not? He had his tree terms,and the opposition is not the same as during Mrs.T's.What the crafty Blair did,was take on the mantle of Mrs.T,changed the name of the party and here we are until when heaven knows. Sorry for the long prologue-epilogue...

Hello Truth 2, You say, why bother with the Brits? It is a matter of principle. This action was brought on behalf of the Palestinians by one named Machover, if you can believe. If they succeed in UK, they can succeed in other European countries, too. The basis of the case is the Fourth Geneva Convention, articles 9 and 147, and UK's very sweeping universal jurisdiction decided by the Judiciary Committee of the House of Lords, 1998, in the Pinoche case. It is not based on the International Criminal Court, as BG claims. It is an attempt by extreme internationalists to circumvant all notion of sovereignty. I am very much in favor of all human rights conventions, but I would not want to be at the mercy of some Machover, who is probably just some narssicist looking for glory. He is Israeli/Brit. What a combination! I am sure that he thinks he is right, but then, so what. Haaretz pl. post to above

Let's be honest Jhonnie Britain and the rest of europe have become the Bullies in the region toward only Israel.The less Israel has anything to do with them the better.I know exactly what I would do,where I in charge of these BULLIES!But our Israeli leaders seem to be in awe about the Brits'why is beyond me.The British haven't forgotten the insult the Israelis gave them when they were thrown out a slap in the face to them!The "The then caled Palestine".Never theirs to begin with and now they mourn the loss.What would "Ord Wingate"do or say to their Boorish behaviour...

Hello Ivo, I am glad you are raising such significant issues. It could be that suicide bombing falls under the "crime against humanity" category. Such crimes do come under the jurisdiction of the new International Criminal Court (ICC). They probably do not have jurisdiction over the anti-Israel cases because Israel is not a party to the ICC. (Its reasons are justified, I believe.) Regardless, I believe British law allows for private complaints in such cases as well. Will be good to test it by bringing a case. But I don't think Meshaal and Haniyeh will be good cases. They are political people. You probably need actual commanders and planners. These keep their identity secret for fear of assassination - a fate worse than a trial. (You see where the concept of "retaliation" fails?) As far as the treaty against terrorism, the UN cannot pass one because many countries understand the difference between terrorists like al-Qaida, and Freedom Fighter terrorists like Hamas. Exclude Hamas

Londoner? Really? Oh,I don't think so.No address,and no true Londoner for sure.You can fool the people some of the time,etc,etc.You know,Abraham Lincoln's saying don't you eh? Just take a leaf out of his comment and keep a low profile as you are doing.That's the ticket mister...

"This would work, but only if there was an honest and full investigation." - Mark Lincoln Mark, Many times Israel is reluctant to investigate, believing that charges of war crimes are motivated by political or anti-semitic reasons. But if laws in other countries provide that the absence of a good and fair Israeli investigation would allow a foreign country (Britain) to prosecute, that would be a good incentive to do a good investigation. The main benefit I see in my proposal (that private complaints first be brought in Israel), is that the element of surprise is removed. General Kochavi, and the Israeli government, don't even know if a private complaint was filed in England against him. He was involved in the Jenin situation, but we don't know if anybody claims he committed any war crime. (Personally, I doubt any such thing occurred.) Strictly out of caution, the IDF prevents him from taking a military course in Britain. A required complaint in Israel will take care of this.

Marc Aren't they all coming out of the rotten woods eh? I have yet to hear such stupidity in my entire life! Soldiers being accused for protecting their country and its people?Putting their lives on the line everyday.And here we get the mealymouthed in Europe trying this uncalled for,dishonourable double standard!The futility of it all is for one thing only.And we all know the answer to that.Will they also arrest an American soldier should he travel into any of these countries? Will he remain on the air-plane for fear of being prosecuted? What a farce it all is!I say,do not demean our officers or soldiers!Kochavi can go to the U.S to further study,on the other hand,why bother with foreign studying? We have the highest rate of educational facility in Israel,leave the cretins to their own devices...

Has always been the closing sentence anytime IDF activities make it to the world stage. How silly. I bet that the conclusions of the investigations would make for a great satirical play - opening soon in Jenin.

Please enlighten me, What is a memeber?

Andrew What I would suggest is,why bother with the Brits'?Why not ignore Britain and go to the U.S? Leave those cowardly Brits'to their miserable pandering of the "lefties" and undoubtedly the Muslims in their midts...

UNTILL THIS ISSUE IS RESOLVED I SUGGEST THAT BRITISH CITIZENS FILE CHARGES AGAINST HAMAS TERRORIST AND FLOOD THE BRITISH COURTS WITH COMPLAINTS,THIS WILL GET THEM TO RECONSIDER THE LAW.

If high ranking officers as well as conscripts continue to have loose rules of engagement where Palestinian lives is worth no more than the bullet that take it away, then maybe they should seriously be concerned about facing judgements where the rule of law rises above the rule of bullets. Those who believe that they are above international law should take a hard look at Slobodan Malosovich.

You always eventually reap what you sow. Someday 'Occupation Denial' will be a crime....... just like 'Ho;ocaust Denial'.

"Israel should be easily able to get European countries to change their laws to require that the complaint should first be investigated in Israel. There will be no bad surprises like Almog`s." - Ben Gurion This would work, but only if there was an honest and full investigation.

Hi Ben Gurion, - let's say there's a solution of the kind you've outlined in the case of Israel & IDF officers. Great. There's still a problem here.(I've noted you're not very supportive of some kind of "legal retaliation" in this regard, but -) Shouldn't it bother all of us that this kind of legal activism that easily can take place & be misused against a country like Israel (albeit admitting that Israel should be scrutinized like everybody else) while there's not a stir tied to terrorism in the international legal arena? Amnesty Int. f.ex. classifies suicide bombings as crimes against humanity. This is no valid legal category internationally? In any case, there seems to be some work needed on that exact point. To me the still complete failure of the UN to come up w/ even a definition of terrorism(& we all know why)speaks volumes of this legal black hole, which actually renders everything else we might say about crimes & rights null & void & completely meaningless. Regards,-

Islamic terrorists , islam in total - beware , you are on a collision course with the G-D of the universe . YOU ARE ORDAINED BY G-D TO BE DEFEATED ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL .

Those pathetic liberals, who are always substituting white with black, and who are always spread their self-serving propaganda and slogans of type ^^lend for peace^^ this is the real killers of Israel. Instead of exterminating all arab terrorists, their sympathizers and supporters by using IDF in its full capacity, those low lives created conditions for tolerance of arab murderers of innocent people. Those corrupt politicians turned everything up side down by accepting ^^certain level of terrorism^^. Shame on liberals, shame on communists.

first of all 1)The all mighty is one! yours and my! 2)begin not deserve nobel prize? fortunatly, nobody care about your oppinion in the nobel academy! Jews are like any other people, with good and bad guys. Whe are build with the same component in dna like you. Me and other jews, have the same blood that you, my fellow! It is not necessary to born jew to be an einstein, sabin, freud, or any other. Likewise, born in the gaza, in the territories or even in egypt, don't automatically turns the baby in an Arafat. The earth is only one, and we have to undestand to live togather.And you have to accept that jews have the right to leave in this planet! And beein nobel prized! Nothing more, nothing last. Maybe is hard to you to understand!

I offer moral support to IDF officers - you are our heroes and the backing and support you need comes from the people, not the government, at this time. Perhaps the government will look out for you in the future, but look around you and feel the love Israelis bear for you. You have real backing of the strongest form possible. David Israel, you should come back to Israel - your songs could make change more change here than in NYC. Blessings on your return.

Using inocents in a human shield is close to a war crime to me. What don't i get

Abe got it right. Simple is best. Don't become fouled by political and international chest-pounding; just issue the passport.

How dare you compare Hamas to the french resistance. The latter never blew innocent civilians up neither in occupied France nor in Germany. I guess the brits will need more suicide bombings in Londonistan to understand what the western world is facing.

Let's boycott the british. Their country, academic institutions and arrest all of its citizen that come to Israel to create problems as supporters of terrorism.

Israel is not party to the International Criminal Court. The generals faced prosecution under the Fourth Geneva Convention, 1957, and pursuant to the United Kingdome's adoption of the principle of universal jurisdiction. Before you tell others to stop whining, why don't you learn the facts.

They dont come much dumber and hateful as you Stanely. Your views don't hold to the facts. Hamas killed hundreds of Israelis in combat. Can one say Bullshit? Hundres have been killed in Pizzeria's, buses, cafes.. Women and children. The majority murdered on the Palestinian side have been in direct combat with teh IDF. Never mind that, Hamas has stated it will never recognize Israel and will continue to fight with Israel. Israel never has and never will be a terrorist state no matter how many times fucked up bigots like you or anyone else states.

Isn't this typical of the Palestinian decades-long strategy of trying to score meaningless victories while avoiding the tougher issues, namely a negotiated peace with Israel in which both sides will have to make concessions. It's like fighting malaria by equipping people with fly-swatters. Go ahead, have a chuckle at the expense of one IDF officer who can't attend a military college in the UK, don't mind those who think you look silly, chalk it up as a major coup while the Palestinians continue to wallow in their misery and squalor. Let's look at this issue in 6 months or a year and see just how much it helped change their lives for the better. How pitiful.

but the problem is not 100 years behind.It is more then thousands years behind.The jews and christians has been made some reformation in their religions,And they accepted all humans are equals and have right for existence.But unfortunately islamic nations doesn't want to make any reformation in their religion because they believe what ever is in that book Quran is perfect and unchangeable.that is why they teach to their kids in pakestan and palestian and in others muslims countries The non muslims are infidel.And it bring them how to hate.

Please find me an innocent Pal. They accept pay from a ARab coountry if their child bloes themselves along with Jewish Children. THe only reason Israel has had to go to war and win is because of the greedy and corrupt Arab governments. Isreal is used as an excuse for the poverty unempolyment hunger etc THe Pal voted in with a very large majority a group that is sworn to distroy Isreal. You want Israel to go back to the 67 boarders. HA HA

If swiss cheese had less holes in it, would it taste better? Why are there holes in swiss cheese after all, did the jews punch holes in it and steal the cheese? Is it some kind of jewish world order plot. Do you read the articles you post about or just do a rent-a-rant?

IDF - of course you have less freedom. Whether you believe it or not, the foundations of the world as we know it today, will crumble away. The terrorists will be protected by law ("human rights") in near future. Homicide bombers will have "the right" to perform their act. The leaders of the world will accept it more and more. After an election, a European country changed their position towards Hamas, by leaving the EU definition and joining the UN definition. The new FM said they will treat Hamas as any other government in the world. Yes, terror will be more accepted in the future. I have met many Jews (and Arabs) but not one of them told me he was perfect, far from it. But they all want to live in peace, perfect peace.

Neither the IDF nor Israel defends racism and oppression; in fact they are against both. The prove is that there are many Israeli Arabs living freely enjoying a better lifestyle compared to the Arabs of Syria, Iraq, Jordan etc. It is Islam that considers none Muslims kafirs who do not have the protection of G-D and it was in Saudi Arabia until 1972 that slave markets were legally allowed.

Of course the child-killers must be prosecuted these child killing homicide bomber terrorists commit suicide with their belts. maybe we should prosecute their leaders who send them to these awful missions in the coffee houses, pizza stores in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Netanya etc. How about starting with Meshal who has been traveling around the world recently?

Did any Jew object to diplomatic protection for Menachem Begin so he could travel the world without being held responsible for the King David Hotel bombing? You better mind your tongues when you spell DOUBLE STANDARDS.

why don't we (by 'we' I mean a British citizen) file a civil complaint against all of these Hamas terrorists? Intentionally targeting a civilian population violates the Geneva Conventions last time I checked, so they've certainly committed war crimes.

Soon, Khaled Meshal of HAMAS will be invited to France. Why wouldn't Jews employ the same methods, as the anti-Semites, and not sue him for crimes against humanity, which he is obviously guilty for?

No doubts Jews have excelled in almost all fields of human endevours;in the arts, theater, literature, music, cinema, entertainment, science, law, medicine,charity, politics, buisness and economics, social sciences, banking, entertainment, crimes and mobster actions,war and war crimes, defense, military and aerospace industry, atomic weapons and energy and technology. Your scientist deserve all the Nobel prizes, however no Jews is deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize, not Begin, not Kissinger,not Elie Wiesel,not Rabin, not Peres ( not Arafat, but Sadat deserve it).Yes Jews made cgreat contributions to the US Civil Right movement. However when it comes to the Palestinians,it seems all Jews lose it and they become total hypocrites for accepting what was done to the Palestinians and justifying what Israel continue to do for the last 60 years. In the category of human decency, and sense of fairness and justice to the Palestinians you have along way to go. May God forgive you.

IDF and war crimes in the same sentence is another of the gross distortions of revisionists. When the day comes that arabs tire of trying to rid the middle east of jews, when they tire of trying to eliminate Israel from the middle east....then we can talk. The palestinian issue is a red herring.

IDF is responsible for the outbreak of cow-tipping. It's an outrage and the world absolutely must condemn and bring justice. How can the UN allow Israeli's to continue cow-tipping. I'm telling you, it's an outrage! Coming to an ngo near you. Surreal? maybe....but that's what Israel has to put up with on the world stage and with so many posters here.

Usually I have seen jews being very critical towards themselves and seeing themselves being far from perfect. If this wasn't the case, palestinians would be far more bad place than they are now. If you haven't seen one, you are either blind or lying. True, west has gone trough diffiecult problems and times. True, there are many bad things happened. Point is, that west has mostly learned something from them and worked hard to get things better. Most of it is because of critical thinking and self criticism. There's that big difference: arab countries usually lack that kind of criticism. They blame everything on jews and Israel. I cannot think anythin more effective way to cease all development than that right now. And what about palestinians? All they do is moaning about how bad Israel is and how they have right to do just about everything and how they should not held accountable for anything. Development and responsibility just doesn't fit into that picture in any way.

Jewish settlers, armed to the teeth, and carrying out daily attacks on Palestinian civilians are viewed as combatants, not civilians. Therefore Palestinian guerillas attacking and even killing these settlers shouldn't never be prosecuted. THey are only doing their duty. Were the French resistance fighters prosecuted for killing the Nazi occupiers?

Liberalism and Communism are completely separate ideologies, why they should join forces to kill Jewish babies I am not sure. But I wouldn't expect you to differentiate. What corrupt bureaucrats have to do with international law I am likewise not sure of. You seem to have an issue with the law as a whole. If you're looking for an alternative, I suggest you go to Falluja, or maybe Queensbridge at 11 on a Saturday night. The one thing you have revealed is that you are nothing more than a racist. Modern international law was born out of, and attempts to address, the lessons of WWII and the Holocaust.

Anybody resisting us is a terrorist anybody criticizing us is a terrorist Anyboyd we kill is a terrorist anybody whose death we cause is a terrorist anybody we accidentally kill is a terrorist anybody whose home we destroy is a terrorist Andybody we are angry at is a terrorist anybody who doesn't agree with us is a terrorist We are a holy people, and our "terror" is a holy terror and our crimes are holy crimes. Jews can't be subjet to the same laws other nations are subject to.. You see America doesn't allow other nations to prosecute American soldiers even if they indulge in crimes and murder citizens of other countries. American is not better than us. We are God's chosen people. That is the crux of the matter.

Soon or later you will see Arafat Center (like Simon Wiesental Center) hunting ziocriminals around the world. History is repeating itself. Soon or later you will see Palestinians suing zionists and those states, institutions and companies who supported them for compensations. Where are they going to hide?

"Hamas is nothing like freedon fighters. They are terrorists and war criminals. " This is not true, Hamas killed hundreds of Israeli occupation in face-to-face combat in Jenin and in Gaza and in Hebron and throughout the West Bank. Calling Palestinian freedom fighters "terrorists" is like calling French resistance against the Nazis "terrorists." It is a promiscuous distortion of reality. Besides, what are the Palestinans supposed to do when their country is occupied and their people are murdered and humiliated? As to the civilians, we all know that the Israeli army killed ten times as many Palestinian children and women and civilians as Hamas and all other Palestinian movements combined killed Israeli civilians. Thi smakes Israel a true terrorist country and its army a true terrorist army. This is why these officers MUST be treated as war criminals, until proven otherwise.

The jews never say they are perfect and they are allways trying to be better. Doing more mitzvot, helping people, and of course winning nobel prizes, But are the jews and , no jews that gave the nobel to them. Others simple hate them.

Israel didn't occupied palestinan land. They won the battle against.... Egypt and jordan in 67, before it the so called pal were dominated by them! Not a centimeter was lost by any president,general,prime minister of a nation called palestine! Can anyone tell me the name, rank and army of the man that assign the armitice that drove out the palestinains or egyptian or jordanians of the territories? The reality of the territories is put to a negotiation, but there is none to do deal. Sadat sign an peace accord, not letting a finger to the pales in gaza... Why? They don't deserve be free? this happende in the 80' Arafat said something at day, and send or let killer act at night. You will see a vibrant democratic iraq in a few years, like USA, France and others that had their own civil war that strenght them. No more Saddams, no man is better than other. PS But i doubt that any murder in dafur will be put in jail...

Of course Arabs and Muslims are not perfect and it will take a long time to address all of the issues and problems we face today. We are about 100 years behind civilized Europe, where war was raging on everywhere and where hundereds of millions of people died in political and sectarian wars. Yes, I do admit we have a long way to go toward democracy, toward tolerance, toward accepting diversity. However The civilized West and the Jews as part of it went through a long process, even there, more than 6 million Jews where murdered. Yes, we admit we have many faults, I am yet to see a Jew admit they are not perfect. You are not only the chosen people, but certainly the perfect one.

each Israeli traveling to the Uk or anywhere for studies should be given a diplomatic passport. Diplomats are basically immune from arrest. That should stop these peaceniks from screwing up anything more

The main destroyers of Israel ? liberals ? communists, corrupt government bureaucrats and other rascals bought up to the altar of political correctness lives of Jewish children, Israeli women and men to satisfy bloody appetite of arab^s monsters. Those zombies should not be blamed for their murders, they honestly declared annihilation of Jews and Israel. And they are doing just that. The only party responsible in Jewish bloodshed is Israeli liberal murderers, who deliberately disabling IDF. I hope one day they will be brought to Justice.

Israel can always count on the Mariannas, thanks to Jack Abramoff. But to many on this site along with UK you'd have to add: Belgium, Belarus,Canada,Ireland, France, Nederlands, Luxubourg,Germany,Switzerland,Norway,Sweden,Denmark,Finland,Spain,Portugal,Poland, Hungary, Romania, Italy,Austria. Well pretty much ever country except the Marianas.

The arabs illegaly occupy 25 countries spanning africa to asia, are involved in ALL the major world crisis, yet sully somehow manages to come up with a lie about Israel occupying something? How can you "occupy" your own land? If you look up "SULLY" in the dictionary it means to dirty something (when something gets sullied) NOW I know why - Sully dirtied the brave IDF who has to be on guard 24/7 from his land stealing, buddist staute destrroying, car bombing, child killing, cafe destroying FRIENDS.

Peretz seems like a good man too but I will probably vote Kadima. I never know until I actually fill in the form. I believe Kadima will be the winner and will go into a coalition with Labor. I can't imagine them going in with Likud - too much bad blood from the split and all those Effi Eitam types...are scary.

and that must end.

and that must end.

I can hardly imagine IDF officers spending any time in a British jail - but they can be arrested and limited from leaving the country until the court has heard the case. In other words, harrassed. This is really a sad thing, and totally unjustified. Unfortunately, other than hope that some idiot Briton will file a warrant against an american general (in which case, America will put enough pressure to get the law trashed as in Belgium), there is not much Israel can do. I guess IDF officers will have to avoid potentially unfriendly countries. There is still enough of the world where such nonsense is illegal - such as the U.S and Canada.

common sence people .... Well if you need to assign blame - look LEFT - the 5th column that spreads lies about the brave IDF, who put thier lives on the line 24/7 defending Israel against the onslaught of terranical, cartoon mob Pals. (oops it isnt the Pals - Peretz said yesterday he doesnt know who the enemy is)(LMAO vote LABOR!).

Then would it be wrong for them to retaliate by rounding up all the jews and jailing (or worst) them? Britain is America's number one ally (not Israel) so who do you think the US would side with? Ask any american, ANY! we have a special part in american history, kinship and heart with Britain. Language,culture, everything derives from the british (or French for that matter) ....Jonathan, you speak in hyperbole and I'm sure that that comes natural to you as many in the Israeli right do....but come on, grow up, in a battle between the Israel and Britain, Britain will win, they have as much of a military presence as Israel, they have world opinion (Israel does not, or ever has) and the US would surely side with britain, it is inconceivable that they wouldn't. Grow up.

Let the terrorists rot in hell first and speak about occupation after that. Not before.

The rest of the world has recognized the crimes committed by Israel in its illegal occupation of the Palestinians. Itג??s about time that this sort of thing started to happen. Hopefully, those in England and other countries will recognize the American war criminals for their illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq as well. It would be sweet to see George Bush threatened with arrest in London the next time he goes to visit his poodle.

If the problem is that the Hamas delegates are politicians and the IDF commanders are not then the solution is simple. Make every soldier who leaves the country a temporary member of parliament for the duration of their trip.

Just Curious, will you vote for Bibi or Peretz?

Even the fear of being arrested should tell everybody that what the Israeli's are doing is criminal. Guilty as charged!!!!

Anything positive to offer Jake, instead of ripping apart the Israeli Left on here everyday that I read your contributions. Anything positive to add to these discussions?

...and the Palestininians his leadership...How condescending of the White guy... ...Well Jews take no orders from white supremist pishers sitting in Amsterdam.... ..We are masters of our own domain and its time you learnt that...

Personally, I think Britain would be making a huge mistake by conceding to the lawsuits and demands of Arab Muslims who might sue Brig. Gen. Kochavi. Britain was never put in Israel's position where it has to combat evil child-murdering palestinian factions who deliberately shelter amidst areas densely populated by civilians..after all the Gaza Strip is probably the most densely-populated region in the world thanks to the araboos freaky population growth rate, which is harming none other than the pal economy. Britain is in no position to talk about ethics of warfare, after all it is in the Iraq quagmire where clashes with violent arab Iraqis are a regular fixture. And while we are on the subject of war criminals, why didn't Britain arrest the real criminals: the araboo leaders (especially Saddam) in the 1980s when they massacred Kurds and Persians?? Araboo have been massacring Persians since 7th century A.D after imposing their backward doctrines on us... this is a war crime as well.

The idea of bringing IDF officers up on charges has been in the news overseas since it first came up in England and not a word from Olmert in the foreign press (at least in the US)in support of the officers and IDF. Is he too busy getting elected to address this PR fiaso and to express government support and the support of the Israeli people to our finest? The real fiasco is that Israel is still handling overseas PR as if it doesn't exist and because of their neglect our soldiers will suffer. It's a disgrace!

Strenghtening legislation against crimes of war and enabling private citizens to file charges against those suspected of war crimes can only be good. Those who have committed crimes should not be able to live comfortably and potential war criminals may think twice before committing acts that violate the Geneva conventions, the Hague protocol and other legislation regarding war crimes and crimes against humanity. Anybody with a clear record will have nothing to fear from the law.

Hmm.. Talmudic settlers... blah blah ... extermination for non-Jews.. blah blah.. anything else you'd like to enlighten us with? racist quotes from the Talmud? "proof" that Jews are Khazars? maybe some colorful language? mendacious lies? misinformation? raped land? raped people? genocide? Your comment was a little on the dry side today.

An IDF officer who has not engaged in collective punishment or war crimes need not worry about facing charges. LIkewise a Hamas member who has not committed a terrorist activity should equally be allowed freedom of movement. An IDF officer or soldier or a Hamas member who has engaged in either terrorism; collective punishment or war crimes should be held fully accountanble. Everyone can agree with that. I think the IDF are feeling a little annoyed that they may be held accountable for their brutality. They should be ignored. If they want to travel then they will not engage in collective punishment or war crimes. It's that simple.

You have several million muslims in London, which elected an untisemite called Levingstone as a mayor, the weather sucks, the place is a dump and very expensive. To the IDF officers come to the Carabeans, Bahamas, Haway, you deserve that and more. England ? what England, leave it to Muslims, the Pakistanis, the Curry and lamb lovers, come and taste the real Salmon. Long live the IDF (Wein el hassud fia ud Yahalawa)

In your dreams! But in fact who bombed london recently? It was not the islam group al qaeda? The israelis and jews don't think that when they disagree they torch flags, and give death sentences to all, including their brothers in religion. You are trading places.... Who wants a new califate in europe is not israel. Let them in peace....

Of course there is, You saw arafat been arrested in his travel around the world? And the british,americans, franch,belgians,saudi arabians, turkish, pakistaneses, cubans,vietnamese,north koreans,iranians, iraquinans, russians, the hamas armed wing, al fatah armed wing, soldiers that did crimes against civilians around the world, would be punished? Or only the israelies soldiers deserve these treatment..... Ah, the guys that murdere israelis in munich were arrested.... And few mounth later they were free....

The international standard for war crime situations is that accusations should first be investigated by the State with jurisdiction over the matter. Here is a quote from Article 17 of the new War Crimes Court statute: "..the Court shall determine that a case is inadmissible where: (a)The case is being investigated or prosecuted by a State which has jurisdiction over it, unless the State is unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the investigation or prosecution; (b)The case has been investigated by a State which has jurisdiction over it and the State has decided not to prosecute the person concerned, unless the decision resulted from the unwillingness or inability of the State genuinely to prosecute;" Israel should easily be able to convince European countries that citizen's complaints should first be brought in Israel. Only if Israel fails to investigate or charge, should the matter go to the European country's courts. There will then be no surprise arrests in Europe.

Islamic Terror, Christian Terror, IDF State Sponsered Terror..... ....it's all the same thing to the terrorized.

Israel is stopping them from traveling because they fear they will be arrested as war criminals. The UK did not threaten Israel. It sounds to me like the guilty parties are protecting their own. If guilty of war crimes, they should stand trial just as Eichmann, Goering, Milosevic and the other war criminals. If innocent then it will show Israeli officers are not guilty of war crimes. Why are we afraid to face the truth? Wanting the truth is not anti-semitic, but fearing it is anti-democratic, and issue Israel is struggling with.

In war crime situations, if the home country prosecutes, or even seriously investigates the charges and then determines they have no merit, that is the end of the case. Here is a quote from Article 17 of the International Criminal Court statute: "..the Court shall determine that a case is inadmissible where: (a) The case is being investigated or prosecuted by a State which has jurisdiction over it, unless the State is unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the investigation or prosecution; (b)The case has been investigated by a State which has jurisdiction over it and the State has decided not to prosecute the person concerned, unless the decision resulted from the unwillingness or inability of the State genuinely to prosecute;" Israel should be easily able to get European countries to change their laws to require that the complaint should first be investigated in Israel. There will be no bad surprises like Almog's.

"I vaguely remember seeing pictures (during GW II) of coalition troops using artillary on populated cities. One thing the IDF would never do." Beirut 1982, among other occasions. But most of the time the IDF made sure there were no cameras around.

They are participants in an army of occupation, as those courageous Israelis, like Netanyahu's nephew, who refuse service in the occupied territories know, and they should be subject to prosecution if they travel abroad. To accept them into military colleges is obscene. Let them return to being the real Israel army and not an occupying force, then the situation can be reevaluated.

Another of today's articles demonstrates conclusively that Hamas is not interested in peaceful coexistence w/ Israel: "While so far ruling out permanent coexistence, Hamas has said it could accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel also quits all of the West Bank and accepts the right of return of Palestinian refugees" I don't much care whether Hamas's leaders travel the world and the seven seas in search of funding and support, yet I do care very much that they do more than pay lip service (ceasefire?) to the concept of recognizing Israel's right to exist, for if they were to do that, the issue of IDF officers traveling abroad would simply go away.

As I recall, the controversy was that Pinochet was retired, thus not head of state, thus his "diplomatic immunity" was debatable. Pro forma diplomatic status would end the problem before it began.

I know you were being sarcastic, but subconsciously you describe a real situation (Hizballah). Regardless on how you see us We will always be ahead of you in civility. If you have any doubt ask the 2 million Shiates you Arabs Sunnis managed to kill in cold blod in Iraq (Since 1970). And still killing everyware you go,"The culture of death is never satisfied, not even with sending retarded children to their death" You and I know what I'm talking about, Leinna naaraf min hua el mujrum. Stick to discurs for peace they give some credibility, and see if you can fast forward your people to the 2006.

This morning we read a message about a 15 year old Palestinian boy being killed on the roof of his home by the IDF. Then we read the news that IDF officers are enraged about their having to stay out of Europe because of their alleged criminal status. Is there anyone NOT aware of the connection between the two reports? Is anyone NOT intelligent enough to understand that the extreme freedom the IDF has in the occupied territories to do whatever the hell it wants, whoever the hell they might shoot, isn't accepted in other free western nations? What, are the IDF officers that naive? Sorry, you cannot have it both: either you stop your excessive violence and oppression in the land of your neughbours, or you accept your pariah status in the free western world. Why is the IDF so afraid to stand trial? Are they afraid they will be found guilty?

Cipora - thank you for posting that bit of Article 3 - unfortunately you will be attacked by people who only see one side of the situation, for they have made it a habit to justify violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment, torture and taking hostages because Israel's hands aren't entirely clean either. Furthermore, in another article in Haaretz today you can see where Hamas stands with regard to Israel: "While so far ruling out permanent coexistence, Hamas has said it could accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel also quits all of the West Bank and accepts the right of return of Palestinian refugees, both of which are non-starters for Israel." More of the same - give us everything and we still won't recognize your right to exist.

Why not? A country whose Army destroys it's own communities and drives out citizens from their homes deserves the repect of other nations?

It is not the Leftist loonies. It is the Secular, Leftist, Assimilated Humanist JEWISH loonies in the UK and elsewhere that the the cause of all this bulls..t. They and their handlers the Anti Semites. And on any given day you can see these self proclaimed " Patriots" writing into Haaretz as if Israel mattered to them. It does not. All they want is to be able to sell their soul for being accepted or their BLOGS. These are the folks that make my skin crawl. Allon, until and unless we fight these idiots we are doomed to fight wars periodically. The world understands power and we as Jews exhibit only weakness. Humanity does not exist only National interests and these change. Israel MUST exhibit National responsibilty and whether they bomb empty buildings and fields or create buffer zones WAR CRIME CHARGES WILL BE LEVELED AT THEM. Arrest Abbas, Haniya and all the other RATS and send them to the Hague- Give the ICJ a headache and score a PR Coup.

Is behind the goal at Tottenham. We all congregate there. The IDF are welcome there. And the boys in Navy and white armed with bottles and chains will defend you.

wHWN THIE mUSLIMS rampage becayse something happens wheter real or noot..........they will need Israel and theri expertise.................They caan go stuffit.....but the one who stated it is an effort to delegitamize Isarteal...make it into less of a coequal nation....which we all know happens all too often..... Since UK mucked up the whole ME with their partion of various entities, including Iraq Jorddan, and Saudi Arabia all in the name of oil........ Israel when it finally found oil..in Sinai....Yes, Moses wasn't a geologist! gave gack that oil to Egypt in the name of peace. \ To stae that Israel a couuntry attacked and marked for it's destruction by surrounding Arab staes 3 times in last 50 years and 3 times in first 25 years of her existence, one understands why defensive measures are needed. So all this posturing by whackos in UK to get Israel should be heaped with scorn.The bottom line, the General just wanted to share with his colleagues his experience. Their loss.

It should be: Some terrorist can move more freely than others.

There seem to be a few anti-Brits leaping on this one, as usual. To Jonathan 'We must retaliate'. Calm down, lad. I'm not very keen on Jack Straw either, but mainly because he was involved with taking us, to quote you 'colonialist, Iraq invading British' into a dodgy war. Mind you, since you're from New York, you'd probably know a bit about which country, somewhere near you, was really behind the British move into Iraq. By the way, if we British were really upset as a nation, with Israel, we could do more than threaten the occasional passing IDF officer with a trial. We're not very big these days, but we do have influence in both the security council and Europe. Now EU trade sansctions against Israel would really be something to worry about. If the IDF officers are innocent, let them stand trial.

There is a saying that if you can't do the time, don't do the crime; it means that if you're not willing to go to jail, don't commit crimes. If IDF officers are unwilling to face the consequences of committing war crimes, they have the option of not doing them.