Human Rights Watch: Palestinian rockets and IDF fire violate the law

i'll not argue with you; but i suggest that you request "proof" from your source first. you might also ask what year this took place. oh...and the email comment was a just stab in the dark. sorry. and naive? i wouldn't like to think so. i guess in some ways we ALL are. depending on what it is and our exposure to it. but not in regards to b'tselem, et al... i'm fully aware of what they're all about...and yes i know how much they're despised for revealing the truth in countries who have no regard for human rights which they do their best to hide. yuppers...they surely are despised...and maligned...for the truths they bring to light. they're like a conscience...a constant reminder of what people would rather ignore or forget; or deny! the funny thing is...the stronger the feelings are towards them; the more revealing they really are...because stronger feelings indicate a conscience tweaked... have a beautiful day, lady kath'

The mandate was designed by the British AND redesigned by the british ... the league of nations (the predecessor of the unites nations) legalised Jewish settlements in the west bank. The united nations in chapter 80 affirmed this right. one can argue it is politically unwise, but one is on weak grounds to say it is illegal. duncan

Dutch - Talk to me about lawfull rights! Talk to me about occupation! And I'll talk to you about Native American Indians. I suggest that you clean your own back yard first. You have made yourself a hyocrite

"Why there have been no suicide bombers in a while. Ding ding ding. Cause they have rockets now." ------------------- Let's see. Checkpoints. The Wall. Improved IDF intelligence. I'll even say because of the targeted assasinations of Hamas, Hezzie, and IJ leadership, because nothing causes a leadership vacuum like the instant removal of leadership. Missiles have been shot into Israel for the past 10+ years, Bernie, aka, Clueless One. Israel fights Terror better than anyone else on this planet. Face it, Bernie. Your need to call Israelis racists and Israel an Apartheid state hide the fact that you (I'm assuming) really do indeed support the radical Islamic call that all of Israel is occupied Palestine. Do you believe the Holocaust was a hoax, too?

Haaretz Are we having the usual games here?? Just put out the above # 132 Labhras Or go and jump in the river!!

Of course, Saeb Erekat & Sami Abu Zahhri are right--there is no equating what Israel is doing in the Palestinian territories and what the Palestinians are doing. Shame on Human Rights Watch for not making this distinction too. The Israelis are the unlawful occupiers in the Palestinian territories forcing their will on the lawful occupants at gunpoint. How unjust! Thus to compare the lawful with the unlawful is a disservice to the lawful rights of the Pale- stinian people. Hence the other point that should be made clear here--the Israelis are no innocent civilians per se since their government/settlers are the unlawful occupiers. And please consider the heavy handedness of Israel, while the Palestinians fired 2,700 handmade rockets into Israel, Israel fired 14,600 shells into Gaza--the most densely places in the ME with over 50% of its people under 17 yrs of age. How atrocious! The deaths & injuries reflects this too 4--57 deaths & 75--270 injuries. Dutch

"The Peace to End All Peace", a great book on just that subject. Sadly, he's not interested in truth.

"If there should ever be a Palestinian state it would be minescule compared to Israel." 1) Jordan, on 80% of British Mandate Palestine, is a vastly Pal majority nation 2) In 2000, Israel offered 95% of the disputed territories as a 2nd Pal State, which was ~45% of the remaining area. If the Pals had accepted, they would have had two States on almost 90% of the land, with Israel on ~11-12%. Israel would have continued to have an 18% Arab minority while the other two would have continued to be judenrein. Yet ignorant Janice claims that Israel would have been the large one... "INADMISSIBILITY OF THE ACQUISITION OF TERRITORY BY WAR" which is why it says the Arabs should end the war they declared to destroy Israel and acquire its land. Forgot that part, didn't you? The local Arabs said they didn't want a nation in '47, when they rejected UNR181. If they do now, they must end the war and negotiate borders; but you don't want that, do you?

The answer to your question is yes. Israel may be small but it has the 4th most powerful military in the world. If there should ever be a Palestinian state it would be minescule compared to Israel. BTW, in case you have not read the preamble to 242 it begins with these words, "EMPHASIZING THE INADMISSIBILITY OF THE ACQUISITION OF TERRITORY BY WAR............."

The above quote comes directly out of the HRW report. Reprisals against civilians is a war crime under Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, as well as under customary international law. This reading has been affirmed by Amnesty International also. You cannot re-write the law to suit your purposes.

Arafat rejected peace and their state with Israel in 2000 because they refused to relinquish the so called "right of return". Until they do so, there will be no state, and of course, Israel will control borders and access to air space until the Palestinians prove themselves to be peaceful.

if you saw how small it actually is you would cease writing tripe ! unscr 242 requires secure borders

in the old ottoman empire are mandated territories they all have the same basis of legality ! the british and french worked together on the borders

Hey Kath, you are wasting your time asking Tosefta personal questions. His whole virtual existence is a lie. He wrote, "Of course I did. Even participated in a war. But why is this relevant?" this is bullshit from beginning to end, which becomes apparent from his "why is this relevant?" If he had participated in a war, or served in an army he would understand the relevance. Kath, as we all know Tossi still lives in his mommmy's basement and feels that he can "google" understanding. Tossi is Warrior Not! His cute and sarcastic question,At best you can ask if I was a ever a member of the Shin Bet or police." Is but further proof that he is not Israeli. It is to put it simply not something that someone who has served in the military would say. Kath he just doesn't get it. He is so far removed from Israeli society it becomes "slapstick" comedy, filled with pratfalls, stumbling and dim-witted responses.

Too bad that you can not stand truth. Too bad you don't know history. Too bad that you defend a brutal occupation and the dispossesion of another people. Too bad you are a racist. Too bad you want to censor people's opinions. Too bad. Whether or not you like it my name is Janice and you will continue to hear from me and from others whether or not you like it.

Having closely followed the horrible saga of the occupation for many years I can only conclude that you are right that Israel is doing everything to thwart peace. I knew it was all over for any chance for peace back in the 1990s during the Oslo talks when then housing minister Ariel Sharon announced the building of hundreds of new settlements saying "we are creating facts on the ground." Had Israel really wanted peace they would not have built the settlements and encouraged Israelis to move over the Green Line. Israeli actions speak far louder than their words.

It was not the Palestinians who said "no" to a state in 1967. They were not even consulted. It was their corrupt Arab "brothers" who said no. The Arabs rejected peace in 1967 because they felt they were justly deprived of lands in 1948. But times have changed and today some Arab countries have made peace with Israel and the Saudis have proposed a complete recognition by all Arab countries if Israel withdraws to the 1967 line. Israel has blown off the Saudi proposal without discussion so the question might be asked why Israel does not want peace. Had the Palestinians accepted the "state" that was offered in 2000 it would have been a full fledged Bantustan "state." What Israel offered were three separate areas and Gaza each surrounded by Israel. Israel would have controlled the ingress and egress as well as the air space above and the water resources below the so-called "state." No Palestinian in their right mind could have accepted the so-called "generous offer."

Why there have been no suicide bombers in a while. Ding ding ding. Cause they have rockets now. Israel is fighting people that will be a threat later, because they are not planning to fight them now. Israel deserves retaliation. Or, perhaps, you can tell me how many Jews have been killed by homicidal maniacs this year. And then add on how many Arabs have been killed by homocidal maniacs this year. Then explain to me who should retalitate next ...

Arew you just dumb? Uninformed? Or both? Where do you get this garbage about land theft.Have yuou ever seen the sparsenee of the west bank. Hve you been to the big Palestinian Arab cities where there is not ONE Jew? Kevin, even in a poetic gramework, lies are still lies. The only thing about Darfur anything like Gaza is th4e slaughter of the innocents by Hamas over the last few week.

meeesha, would you mind awfully repeating your post, but please do try to do it in plain english this old girl, eh what and bloody good show.

You gots to get off that stuff. It aint good for you or the zionist cause./

Brant, your social security check is due in tomorrow and you need your nights rest. A person your age should be more careful and not slip any discs or break any hips. So do be careful when ridie that goat and hold on tightly to his ears. have a good ride/trip.

In Arabic, the word "Hizb" means Party (like in "political" party) and even you are educated enough to know what "Allah" means. And no Labhras, that's not a goat herd. It means Party of God and "Hezbollah" is an anglicized contraction of the two words. You'll find Arabic speakers pronouncing it like His BAHla. The only goat here is yours; the one I keep getting. By the way I don't feel at all like a child left out of the playpen. I am right in the middle of that playpen having a ball dealing with you.

What is exactly expected of pal's, is to pick up their behinds with large families ofcourse and run for their useless lives to the brainless brothers in Egypt and Jordan, and through tham to Iran (and two Stans to the east and south-east bordering it, and Indonisia and the moon... They need to change their ideology to live in the above states and let Israelis live, or they will really end up badly, Janice very badly. Go, go Janice to the muslim media and repeat after me, and stop poluting our media. We had plenty of Janice's or whatever name really you have, we defenetely had enouph of you the dursons the indas, the duch's - all of you muhameds/ahmeds/fatmas, etc...

With respect, Hizb Allah didn't operate against Israel out of Thailand or Canada! They operated out of Lebanon and you can't have it both ways. You harbour (and maybe even encourage) a group sworn to harm Israel in YOUR country; then YOUR country has to accept the consequences. NOT A SINGLE LEBANESE CIVILIAN HAD TO DIE AND ONLY DID BECAUSE OF UNPROVOKED ATTACKS ON ISRAEL BY HIZB ALLAH FROM YOUR SOIL. I do aplogize if I misrepresented myself on Sabra and Chatilla, Yes, the horrible massacre there was, indeed, no different than any pogroms Jews suffered in Ukraine, Russia, Poland etc. What I called "crap" was blaming Israel. If you want to blame them for not stopping the Christians and Druze from killing Moslem Lebanese; that's your choice. I suggest those awful killings had a foundation of internecine hatred that both preceeded and succeeds those few days of horror for your people.

The Palestinians have no partner in peace. Israel has continued to talk the talk of peace but walk the walk of aggression.Illegal Settlements, House demolitions,targeted killings,collective punishments,land theft,road blocks,occupation and a host of other criminal and brutal activities in the occupoied territories. They get what they deserve and will continue to do so until they decide to join the rest of the civilised countries on this planet.

Oh my gosh, a human rights group that actually blamed both side equally and not solely Isreal. Dammed near gave me heart failure.

Karr Marx,kurt Eisner,Karl Liebnecht,Ferdnand Lasalle,Eduard Bernstein.Otto Landsberg,Trotsky,Zinoviev,etc,etc.

"one has to ask what Israel expects the Palestinians to do after years and years" Accept a peace treaty with Israel. What's your opinion as to why the Arabs rejected peace and a state back in 1967? And the Palestinians in 2000?

Tosefta,you are cruel and unkind, even if it is a defensive mechanism and the only form of retaliation left to you. Regards

Israel's "pre-emptive" attack against Egypt began after(1)Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and were massing near the Israeli border on May 15,1967;(2) Nasser ordered on May 16 the withdrawal of the UN Emergency Force stationed in the Sinai since 1956;(3)on May 22 Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat( an act of war under international law);(4) Nasser said on May 27 that the objective is the destruction of Israel.To say that it is merely an "excuse" for its pre-emption and Israel's" attempt to hide the fact" who caused it, is utter nonsense, and illustrates a strong bias against the essential facts of Israel's miraculous victory.

YOou wrote; 'It would have been funny, except that you are a walking tragedy." But Bird of Paradise you are a 'Talking 'tradgedy.

I believe the same thing. I think its scandelous whenever I see Israelis/Jews outright attempting to make it appear as though no such people existed. These are the very same people who usually are the first to demand Recognition by the Palestinian people as though they are royalty and the Palestinians are to bow down to them. This should become a law in the future once all is said and done. For a people with so many anti-semetic laws in their favor it seems to me they take many liberties to insult people that practice Islam as well as the religion itself. The denial of Palestinians and the existance of palestine should be just as important as denying the deaths of people belonging to a certain religion.

You sound like a child, who has been left out of the playpen.

but what astounds me is peoples selective thinking, we all know the names of the kidnapped idf soldiers, but does anyone know ( without searching ) the names of the dead palestinian kids and the lederly's names? i bet not, people here forget what Irgun Menachem Begin's words which truly depicts the zionists plan, wreak havoc on the arabs and gain as much land as possible under the guise of "self defense amongst other things", lest we forget those poor innocent pals that died under idf and iaf attack, and those idf soldiers sent to there deaths by a bunch of moronic israel prime minister for their ideals. everyone has mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts that have died in this pathetic struggle. what people forget is you affected ALL have the same feelings and anger, BUT it is directed at the wrong people.

Hi Brant, can you share woith us what exactly 'Hizb Allah , is. is that a goat herd.

Kath you wrote/;HAVE YOU EVER SERVED IN THE MILITARY?? Yea,or nay would do. Have you

yonaton yonaton yonaton, let me clarify something here, hyperthetically, if in a school a child with no weapons or just a rock was being attacked by a child with lets say a gun or sword, 1.what would you call it? 2.and what would you call the child with a gun? 3.and what would you call the child with a rocks' helping friends ( which are only armed with rocks )? for me, 1. disproptionate force, 2. a bully and 3. allies, but yonaton, what would happen if these rock throwing kids got guns too? i would call it even and may the best man win, get the point ?

While killing of civilians is a crime, one has to ask what Israel expects the Palestinians to do after years and years of a brutal occupation in which they have seen more and more of their lands confiscated, more and more of their people imprisoned in Israeli jails, their homes bulldozed, their families shut up in their homes for weeks under curfew, their men and women humiliated at checkpoints, their lives lived without hope. If Israel were truly interested in saving the lives of Israelis they would have ended the occupation long ago. A people under occupation have no obligation to submit peacefully. Israel has a choice. Israel, as the occupying and powerful party to the conflict, has the obligation to take the first step and vacate the territories.

You wrote; 'THER ARE NO SETTLERS TAKING THE LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS . THE MANDATE SAYS JEWS CAN LIVE ANBYWHERE IN BIBLICAL ISRAEL" Not withstanding your pathetic attempts at applying the English language, harris, The mandate was designed by the British AND redesigned by the british. Sh-t happens.

Yep, as olways you give us empty and stupid tirades. Unfortunately your lies are far from reality, because if you would be somewhere in the ball, thousands uppon thousands of pal's merderers would meet their end in so called artilery bombardments your reach and mischivious immagenation implies. That is the major problem, that instead of doing exactly what you blame them for, they resourt to stupid trics of bombing the empty buildings after giving the terrorists and their accomplices the adwance 4-6 hours notices as to which exactly locations Israel intends to bomb. Sadly it means that Israel is prolonging its misery by letting the merderers to escape and continue with their attroccities against civilian Israeli population. So, Durson at least in this case I wish you are right, and Israel at least once resourts to what you blame them for. The peace would be much closer if that would be the case.

Gaza as Darfur Many liken the status of Palestinians to the black South Africans and the Bantustans. If you wish to make an African example; I see the Palestinians of Gaza more like the displaced Sudanese of Darfur. Attacked from the air with helicopter gun ships and the follow on attack crossing through the desert on the mighty steed named Merkava. The messianic settlers play the gallant janjaweed fighters driving the unwanted off of the fertile river land. Stealing their land and their crops. To make them suffer so they might leave for other nations never to return. Driven from their land because they are but of a different color, clan or religion. Huddled in refugee camps living a destitute life on the handouts from the United Nations or NGOs. Neighboring countries try to protect the displaced from the further suffering bet are feckless. Gaza the next Darfur

THE RULES OF WAR MEAN NOTHING, IF YOU ARE DEAD! THE ONLY RULES THAT MATTER ARE OF HUMANITY, KILL YOUR ATTACKER BEFORE HE KILLS YOU BY ANY MEANS AVAILABLE! DEFENSE OF YOUR LIFE HAS NO RESTRICTIONS! EXCEPT IF YOU ARE AN OVER EDUCATED CRITIC FROM WELL OUTSIDE THE DANGER ZONE. LIKE EUROPE! WHO THREATENS ALL THESE CRITICS OF ISRAEL WITH SO MANY FANCY WORDS?

This list of people who need a taste or reality and a heaping dose of perspective is a long one. We are outnumbered 248 to 1 by Islamists that want us dead, that vote for laws and governments that want us dead and this is saying nothing of the neo-socialists in the west who are all to happy to help them with this task. The catch is, we can not yell over the collective howling. Though out arguments are stronger, their numbers lend them noise. In the end, we can not win the political game, not in a democratic world, we just don't have the numbers. The solution, is to circumvent Democracy. Take the fight off the ballot box that condemns the minority and put it in the real world, where we can overcome superior numbers by virtue of our personal strengths, where we consistently have. Those who cater to our enemies, will find their alliance of choice is a treacherous one. The incidents in the west are an indication of things to come.

As much as Hezbollah sheltered in civilian areas in the south, it does not justify the bombing of civilian infrastructure elsewhere in the country. And as much as they shelled so many rockets, they did not cause as much damage to a civilian population as did the Israel "Defense" Forces by their own accounts. Sabra & Chatila was not crap. No more than the polgroms and persecutions the Jewish people had to suffer. But suffering does not give you a license to make suffer, nor a license to occupy someone's land and hold International Law in contempt.

"I am a fair-minded North American who sees two sides to this story": "were both predisposed to the Jews coming home to their ancestral lands", "NO record anywhere of Palestinian nationhood, [...] until 1964 when the PLO was founded (to destroy Israel)3 years before the occupation". NSays it all. I rest my case. As for trying something different, how about agreeing to a peace plan along the lines of International Law and UN resolutions? Or is it too much single-minded?

Yes Haaretz.if you are working to rule,and are on strike I can well understand.Otherwise, if all is well with you up there wheever you are,just get down to business and put the damn posts out.If not,just hang up your hat and go home.............................

duncan That man is beginning to get on our nerves. Everytime he comes here with his repeated lists that have no bearing on any of his accusations and he has no idea whatsoever.He has not been in the territories,has no military,not witnessed anything and just makes it up by going to a spurious websites and just waffles on with his usual propaganda machine that should be discarded as so much piffle,by this man who is none other than a german Nazi. he is HERR LABHRAS...

eric hello I did have it on good authority that this was the case.Please do not mention that ghastly B'Tselem,nor the Gush Shalom or any of them. They do more harm than good,and only there to cause mischief.If you want to fall into their type of so-called humaniterian stance,I'd rather they sort out the more immediate horrors elsewhere were they should mediate in-lieu of spending their oh so very valuable time,rather than bringing more unwarranted problems to Israel. I hope you don't fall into the category of being a naive person.I know you are not,but!Heaven knows how people's mind works. What I wrote was not from an e-mail eric.Unless you know more than myself,then just prove it,okay? Enjoy Yourself dear man

Quote: "So all these cluster bombs over Lebanon at the end of the war was restraint? All the destruction of the Lebanon infrastructure was restraint? Israel showed so much restraint that its actions were considered collective punishment and a violation of International Law. What would it be w/o restraint?...." - Israel was able to finish any life on your soil for several hours. In this case HEZBALLAH-NASRALLAH would disappear, but YOU, LEBANESE, would disappear too. - Israel really should protect her citizens. Israel should punish YOUR HEZBALLAH for murdering Jews, for kidnapping soldiers. The arrogant actions of HEZBALLAH-NASRALLAH had to be punished. You LEBANESE, who consider HEZBALLAH a part of the LEBANON also deserved a punishment: HEZBALLAH was sitting not only in bushes and groves of Lebanon, but in your Parliament, in your GOVT. - Israel retaliated, but the relataliation was very mild. - Don't hope that the next war will be mild. You, Lebanese, were warned!

UN Resolution 242 states that Israel must pull out of lands occupied in the 1967 war. This includes the West Bank.

Brant This Labhras does tend to produce time and again his long lists that have become not only ludicrous but also boring because he has no idea at all,where does he get his so-called information from,and it never varies. He is a typical propaganda machine and as such should be ignored for what it is. That he has some empathy toward the Palis is clear.If he thinks we are going to be blinded by him,he can think again this man called MEIN HERR LABHRAS OF A GERMAN DESCENT...

"HAVE YOU EVER SERVED IN THE MILITARY??" - Kathy Of course I did. Even participated in a war. But why is this relevant? Finding appropriate criteria to the release of terrorists has nothing to do with the military. At best you can ask if I was a ever a member of the Shin Bet or police. The answer is no. Aha, now you know why I am looking for reasonable criteria for release..

Efox This is in reply that Haaretz has not seen fit to put out.It concerns the lier Labhras and his propanda lists he supplies. I sent a response asking him how he knows what and where he gets his information from? Has he been with the Palis?has he seen it all with his own eyes? What is more,Labhras is a MEIN HERR LABHRAS AND HE HAS TO COME CLEAN. Now,let us hope that Haaretz puts this one out. I gave them his number(I think it was #19)where he produced and always produces the same rubbishy lists at every occasion.Time he was revealed who he really is. Sorry for the intrusion,but it is frustrating when dear haaretz does not oblige.

the "lenin [peace] prize" was awarded to individuals; not organizations. and seeing how the hrw was founded under the name "helsinki watch" to monitor the soviet union's compliance with the "helsinki accords"; its unlikely that it would receive one anyway. and the hrw does NOT just focus on israel. it performs an important function worldwide in reporting human rights violations which are otherwise buried in obscurity. the problem is NOT with the objectivity of their reports on the isreal/palestinian conflict. the problem is that many israelis, the idf, and the government REFUSE to admit to the wrongdoing that it reports. the solution then is to simply malign and belittle the hrw, in a vain attempt to discredit their findings. an all too familiar strategy used against anyone who challenges israel's activities. b'tselem suffers the same; despite being an israeli org. the source of your information about the "lenin [peace] prize" is one who's propaganda is clearly meant to defame a very praise worthy group.

if you read my previous comment literaly, and a result Palestinian should have their land back and be compensated by you and your next 10 generations, and the story of historic Palestine should be taught in all schools, movies, media, museum endlessly :) What I meant previously is that the denial of occupation or the denial of the existence of Palestinian nation should result in the same reaction of outrage and call for immediate punishment (that denial or questioninq of holocaust creates) - if we assume that jews are not superior thant other people.

"he would be able to say that the rocket was his ONLY MEANS to retaliate against the occupation and related crimes committed against his people." - Tosefta "Please post any war crimes trial where "retaliation," which is a war crime, was pleaded as a mitigating circumstance" - Cipora You haven't used the brine yet, I see. Retaliation by itsewlf is not a war crime at all. If a militia kidnaps my soldier and I then send a plane and destroy a camp of theirs in retaliation, I am just doing fine. The mitigating circumstance for Qassams is if this was the ONLY WAY they could act to retaliate against killing of their people in the West Bank, etc. There is some self-defense element here, which would be a mitigating circumstance. Mitigating circumstances of any sort may be brought up. If you say that your IQ is low, this would be a mitigating circumstance, even if the IQ is sufficient to distinguish between good and bad, but not high enough to understand how bad is the full extent of your act

INTO TOSEFTA'S HEAD. HE MUST BE TOLD THE TRUTH WHICH HE ALWAYS AVOIDS,HEAVEN KNOWS WHY!!

Arabs occupation of Jewish lands is immoral , illegale , illegitime , and punishable ,

The Bible: "For I came to set a son against his father, a daughter against her mother ..."; "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me"; "Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." (ex: The Crusades, the Inquisition, the colonisations, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Latin American, Indians, Iraq, Afghanistan, and of course Palestine, torture, unfair trade, war crimes etc..) First suicide attack: about 1200 B.C.E.by a Jew: Samson. At that time, the Israelites were under Philistine rule. Their leading resistance fighter was Samson. When the Philistines succeeded in overpowering him, he prayed "O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once" - and then he pushed against the building's with all his might. "Let me die with the Philistines, "burying both him and his tormentors. According to Book of Judges: 3000 died.

Tosefta After your long response,having read it veeery, carefully I ask you to tell me this:HAVE YOU EVER SERVED IN THE MILITARY?? Yea,or nay would do. Thank You

Alicia Without any preamble let us all say what we know,what the whole thing has always been about.Just the usual "Paliwood" and a good PR propaganda they have/are alway so adept at performing.And have done so for years. 1- Jenin 2-Ahmed Dura 3- The Gaza Beach 4- The fake pictures of the ambulances during the 2nd Lebanon war. 5- Marjayoun and the mysterious building that collapsed 8+hours later after the IDF fired at it. 6-Solve this one if anyone wishes. The Arabs are adept at this kind of thing. And you Alicia put it so very well...

Want to talk about "restraint"? Get ahold of your own country. Want to talk about bombing Lebanese infrastructure? Ask yourself why the hell you allowed Hizb Allah to set up and hide its weapons in the middle of it all. Want to talk about "collective punishment"? Ask the fat Sheik why he sent 10,000 rockets at civilians, including Arabs in Israel and, lastly oh holier-than-thou-one, disabuse yourself of that old Sabra and Chatilla crap and wonder why the internecine warfare between Moslem and Christian Lebanese had to be so ugly. Or was that hatred the Jews' fault too??? No wonder your country can't get its act together.

Duncan, the previous discussion came to its natural end, and it is best to leave it there. If you need legal advice, there are some practicing lawyers out there. As far as your two points in #78: 1. I used especially the example of firing into empty lots, because this served NO useful purpose. It could not "de-commission" any terror group but only make noise and hit some civilians on occasion. Israel recognizes it by now, and has stopped this ridiculous practice. 2. An occupation is legal. I said it to you a couple of times already. The occupier has to act in accord with the Geneva Convention and other humanitarian laws, but the occupation itself is a legal state of affairs.

I know it looks good on paper and makes you feel righteously indignant to write that "Israel is going into the West Bank and killing suspected militants whenever they feel like it". But the truth is that they go in occasionally when they know they have found someone who is owed for what they did in the past or when they know there is a horrible act about to be committed and, rather than see little Jewish babies torn to shreds bt razor blades and ball bearings, they take the planners out. So, Bernie, you keep on writing what makes you feel good. I feel good about the ethical and honorable way Israel defends its citizens from masked maniacs with directions to heaven on their bandanas.

What Israel did to Lebanon was in fact restraint, the Israelis gave warning before tearing into infrastructure. This is what happens when the government of Lebanon refused to control its borders. Sinora said that he was not going to take responsibility for protecting Israels northern border-nearly a direct quote repeated many times, O.K. Then Lebanon allowed the nation become a hezbollah/Iranian/Syrian cesspool. Much like Gaza, if the arabs want quiet, there will be quiet, if they want war; and so far they do, then there will be war.

t , And When Int'l Law is manipulated to undermine Israel's right to defend itself by Israel's own warfare Law ethics , Then the values of Israel's right to exist and Israel's right to self defense overweight the manipulated Int'l Law , The recognition of Israel's right to exist and the recognition of Israel's right to self defense implies that Arabs criminals, that moslems invaders are the violent occupiers within Israel natural borders, that mohamedeans violently oppose Zionism Kosher enterprise , The refusal of Israel the State to promote an agreement in principle with Islam followers to bring about an end ,to terminate Arabs occupation of Jewish Lands , thru the agreed upon transfer of the Islam invaders , the arabs occupiers to muslims farfur lands from Nuakchott to Indenosia , Is an Israel state invitation to more Islam followers inherent violence against the jews, This Israel State refusal to carry out such transfer policy is manipulated , exploited as a pretext by Arabs to use the term of occupation from wich they justify the use of weapons , quassams ect...and is manipulated and exploited by these HRW , Amnesty , UNSC fabricated resolutions ect.. The Arabs states refusal to agree to such arabs transfer policy is an arab states intent to use arab demography as weapons , thus arabs human shields collaborators ect..., is proven by the Arabs humanitarian violations to absorb their Islam followers into their countries , denial of citizenship , denial to administration work , housing ect... This arabs states humanitarian violations , political moves against their Islam followers is reflected by the arab block manipulation leading to the political exploitation of UN 194 , and is to be compared with the Human diplomacy that Israel the State provide thru its Law of return , Arabs transfer policy reduce to zero the horrors of arabs urban terror and may bring about some quiet if agreed upon with Islam followers who have money to absorb their islam followers , it takes a degree of honesty , of integrity for arabs to collectively admit ,to recognize and rectify arabs politico-religious blunders , Arabs , Islam followers will not agree to such policy , arabs of course don't recognize Israel's right to exist within its natural borders ect...they rather manipulate , exploite quassams rockets , katyushas , missiles , moslems as suicide bombers , as humans shields ect...and alternatively use the evil ruse , mortal trap of withdrawal thru the lure , illusion of economic overtures , the compelled solution against such arabs refusal to compromise is to for Israel the State to sharpen its deterrence policy ,to sharpen its zero tolerance policy , whether by will the same as a trained horse respond to the whitsle of its owner or by what appears to be natural affliction the same as a donkey walk under the stick of its owner , the State of Israel must obey in a docile manner to the natural Bible laws established as inherent to the creation of mankind , Israel is as a beautifull sweet smelling rose , but same as a rose , so is Israel surrounded by thorns , " blessed be the USA whom the creator of the universe wishes to Honor" , blessed be the USA who destroyed the "Bourreau of Bagdad" his kids and his Baath party followers , But Israel the State must stay away from the combination of US 2003 Road Map in line with Saudia 2002 machination and EU 5 points plan , that caliphated Israelis Medias all wrongfully promote as a daily repeated Qur'an verses from every angle , postures and styles , misleading Israel citizenry opinion to mutilate Israel natural borders with Jreusalem Capital ,

Hi double, Thank you for agreeing with me...If you ever been in a combat situation,you would know about "collateral damage"...The problem with the "pals" and with all moslem terrorists,is that they don't value the life of their civilians,be their wifes,children and elderly...They lauch attacks on Israel,from civilian areas,from behind the skirts of women and behind the cradles of children...You must have seen oictures they proudly show,of toddlers wearing their "uniforms",holding machine guns and wearing explosive belts...The Israelis catched many young girls and even children carrying explosives...For those rats,every civilian that dies is a propaganda score,for the moslem world and their simpatyzers to be incensed...The people from "betzelem" are a bunch of heart bleeding idiots/communists/self hating Jews mixed with some arabs disguised as "human rights activists". They would give away the last drop of Jewish blood,to apease the moslems...

I am a fair-minded North American who sees two sides to this story and refuses to be labeled by people who know nothing about me. The first King Abdullah (Hashemite) and the leaders of the House of Saud, at the time of the British mandate, were both predisposed to the Jews coming home to their ancestral lands. There is NO record anywhere of Palestinian nationhood, statehood, Goverment and no real "Palestinian" nationalism until 1964 when the PLO was founded (to destroy Israel)3 years before the occupation. Israel won a war against the Arab occupiers of parts of Palestine. That's historical fact and, ever since that day, the Arabs have been fighting to the last Palestinian. You have never done a thing for them but help them refuse reality. Your Arab league has failed them; their terrorism has failed them and now Islamism is failing them. This is a gargantuan tragedy that can be broken with compromise and a minimum understanding of simple facts. Try something different!!!

you conveniently choose to ignore the underlying cause...which ALWAYS remain the same. who begins a conflict is not necassarily who caused it. case in point: israel's "excuse" for its preemptive attacks in 1967. who started it? ~israel~(despite its attempts to hide the fact). who caused it? ~if israel's reason is to be believed; the cause was the military buildup of its neighbors indicating and impending attack. the underlying "cause" of palestinian attacks on israel hasn't changed in 40 years. and by the way; many of them HAVE been in direct retaliation for idf attacks.

WERE AWARDED THE "LENIN"PRIZE? SO MUCH FOR THESE DASTARDLY CARING LOT...

So all these cluster bombs over Lebanon at the end of the war was restraint? All the destruction of the Lebanon infrastructure was restraint? Israel showed so much restraint that its actions were considered collective punishment and a violation of International Law. What would it be w/o restraint? What you got accomplished through your middlemen? the Khiam camp prisoners with numbers tatooed on their bodies? or the massacres of Sabra & Chatila? Please elaborate on what is the legitimacy for Israel not to show *more* restraint, and what that would entail.

"So that they can shoot down planes and blow up tanks, and keep the civilians out of it." Except Palestinians wouldn't keep civilians out of their war with Israel. Their religious clerics teach it is moral to kill any or all Israelis. "Hezbollah already proved that to you. With Katyushas, they killed 120 Israeli soldiers, and 39 Israeli civilia" Only because Israel evacuated its civilians to bomb shelters or out of the north completely. There was massive damage to civilian areas otherwise. It is too bad the Lebanese do not care enough for their citizens to build them bomb shelters before allowing Hezbollah trash to initiate wars with another sovereign country.

Typical zionist amnesia: Suddenly in history these guys start hitting on us. They come out of nowhere and threaten our country and society, like the barbarians at the steps of an empire. We had nothing to do with them before then. So much so that it is hard to think how we could live on the same land, together, next to each other, for so long, from the biblical times. Or was it so?

Post #81 writes, "If the "pals" wouldn’t have started their crimes, there wouldn’t be Israeli reprisals." Then continues, "Human rights don’t apply to assassins and murderers. Human rights dreamers should fight for the Israeli victims." I couldn't agree more. But that "human rights" also applies to non-combatant Palestinians victims as well. Objective readers should read the detailed statistics from the Israeli Internet site: http://www.btselem.org/English/ This site publishes not only statistical summaries, but identifies the names and circumstances of the various killings and atrocities committed by both the Palestinians and the Israelis. The number of Palestinian non-combatant casualties is far greater than those of Israelis. A "Just Peace" will require that the combatants see "reality" other than through their "distorted, ethnocentric prism”.

Labrhas: Your goat is so easy to get, a bunch of us have decided to chip in and get you a mule. That will go much better with your braying and bleating anyway.

Hamas won the elections in jan 2006, your entire post in nonsense. Google around. Hamas filth attacked Israel with qassams AFTER blowing up their own civilians, whom they consider disposable, in a pre-election hate rally. The only reason they declared this "ceasefire" was because it was a condition for their candidates to run.

Please post any war crimes trial where "retaliation," which is a war crime, was pleaded as a mitigating circumstance, and where the court accepted such defense.

human rights don't apply with assassins and murderers...those "human rights" dreamers should fight for the Israeli victims...If the "pals" wouldn't have started their crimes,there wouldn't be Israeli reprisals...GO TO THE ROOTS OF THE PROBLEMS,STOP BEING GOODIE TWO SHOES CLOWNS...

He probably thinks Hitler with nuclear weapons would also have been harmless.and no I am not using the holocaust as a justification this time so keep your pants on Israel bashers.

". But if the responsible Palestinians end up before an objective court he would be able to say that the rocket was his only means to retaliate against the occupation and related crimes committed against his people. This would be a MITIGATING circumstance. " (1)In your opinion would israel have a mitigating circumstance against disproportionl force against palestinian terror groups, as it was the only way to de-commision them. (2)do you reccommend israel pulls unilaterally out of west bank. surely this would lead to central israel becoming a big sderot. hence occuption is legal and necessary duncan

Post 54 my source concerning the 17 month Hamas "cease fire" by saying, "Hamas launched dozens of qassams after Hamas exploded ordnance at one of their hate rallies leading up to the elections in 2005." CHECK OUT THE FACTS. The Palestinian Presidential Election was on January 9, 2005. But Hamas' cease fire was on Feburary 8, 2005. AFTER NOT BEFORE. Post #54 then says, "This event was also after the Hamas participated in the abduction of Gilad." But Cpl. Gilad was abducted on June 25, 2006 - BEFORE the end of Hamas' cease fire. In a nutshell, the chronology: 1) Jan. 2005 - Abbas wins Presidential election. 2) Feb. 2005 - Hamas declares a "cease fire" 3) June 2006 - Israeli artillery kills people on Gaza beach. 4) June 2006 - Hamas breaks their self imposed "cease fire". Between Feb. 8, 2005 and June 2006, there was "cease fire".

Too dense in their apologistic ways to realize that they share the exact same beliefs as that loony bin leader in Iran and Farfur the Mouse. And yet they wish to be taken seriously. On an Israeli message board. For which they are clearly obsessed. I doubt, to them, the Holocaust ever happened.

"Yet Israel is going into the West Bank and killing `suspected militants` whenever they feel like it." --------------------- That's right, Bernie. That's what the Jews do. Go around and killing people 2 at a time whenever "we feel like it". Suicide bombers blow up restaurants whenever they are ordered to, Bernie. And if you weren't so dense, you would realize that this is what these operations are supposed to combat: the incessant suicide bombers that were killing, maiming, and terrorizing Israelis for years at a time. But, I guess, because the Israelis fight this terror-- a real threat of terrorism, not this Yellow and Orange stage crp-- and fight it successfully, that, according to you, they just stop. Right now. As if Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade aren't doing anything!!! You may not be beyond an apologist, but you are most definitely clueless.

Would you be able to continue the discussion I was having with jb on legality of occupation/settlements. I appreciate your expertise. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/871996.html duncan

No rockets are firing. No suicide bombers are exploding. And Abbas is talking peace. .. (1)the reason why there are no suicide bombers is because israel pre-empts them by taking out fatah militants, who do not stop for one second planning terror attacks. (2)action is more important than words. abbas has to diasarm the fatah militants. until then he will remain at best the peaceful head who of a terror organisation. at worst duplicitous head. duncn

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/resolution181.html or http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/UN+General+Assembly+Resolution+181.htm or http://www.mideastweb.org/181.htm read em and we will discuss

"The rockets are rather ineffective and use mostly to frighten the population. It is a WAR CRIME, nevertheless. But if the responsible Palestinians end up before an objective court he would be able to say that the rocket was his only means to retaliate against the occupation and related crimes committed against his people. This would be a MITIGATING circumstance. "Did you not read the article where it is clearly stated that HRW says that retaliation is ALWAYS illegal?" - Cipora When was the last time you dipped your head in the barrel of brine in order to sharpen your brain a bit. It would have been funny, except that you are a walking tragedy.

Seems to me I recall hearing/reading that it was NOT Israeli fire but something of the {Pals own doing, perhaps not intentionally, that caused the explosion--or perhaps it was intentional with the goal of blaming Israel in order to break the ceasefire---they are a bunch of sly liars

Did you not read the article where it is clearly stated that HRW says that retaliation is ALWAYS illegal? But then why bother, when you can make up the law to suit your purposes?

The court is crystal clear on whether or not territories are Occupied and even uses the term `Belligerent Occupation`. ... (1)the court also speaks of Israel's legal to occupy the west bank. Even the un security council has never called Israel's occption illegal (2)the court does not uses the term occupied palestinian territories, simply because there has never been a palestinian state there. (3)the term occupation can cover cases where there is a territorial dispute. "Need any better evidence.I won,t trouble you with the opinion of the ICJ or most of the rest of this planet. " .. the icj was influenced by the un which 2 un general secetaries consider biased against Israel. find a neutral critic if you want. Not a biased one which considers seriously blood libel allegations gainst Israel.

Step 1----Eliminate all influence and interference, arms smuggling, etc of IRAN!!!!!!

This attitude is right on for a lefty fron So. Cal---up north, we have a clearer view----the left falls right in with the enemy. Get your head out of the sand--the Pals always strike first, and none of you say a word--but as soon as Israel stands up for herself, you all scream foul--

the israelis behave in a far superior mnner to the palestinians. have you ever heard of jew committing a suicide bomb attack. It helps that the bible unlike the koran does not have the evil jihad concept duncan

The Rockets can not be aimed, they kill at random. Every one that is fired is an act of war. The IDF has every right to retaliate and does so with great precision, precision that is well beyond anything that can be called necessery, they frankly have the right to kill every Palestinian that supports terrorism and just about every Palestinian does. "Palestinian rockets also caused at least 23 Palestinian casualties" No, Palestinian Rockets caused Every Palestinian casualty. You shoot at Israel, you should expect to get shot. These are not people who can be trusted. Israel left Gaza and Southern Lebanon, the results should surprise no one, because no bunch of Islamists ever said they would make peace in exchange for Lebanon and Gaza. They promise peace to Israel, only when every Israeli is dead. Such terms, are not acceptable. The only occupation, is whatever land an infidel still stands on.

So that they can shoot down planes and blow up tanks, and keep the civilians out of it. The best thing for Israeli civilians will be better armed Palestinians. When the Palestinians have satellite guided bombs, they won't accidently kill 1000 civilians while they kill 70 militants (as Israel did in Lebanon). Hezbollah already proved that to you. With Katyushas, they killed 120 Israeli soldiers, and 39 Israeli civilians. If they were that accurate with katyushas, can you imagine how accurate the Arabs will be with real weaponry, and how safe the Israeli civilians will then feel.

No rockets are firing. No suicide bombers are exploding. And Abbas is talking peace. Yet Israel is going into the West Bank and killing 'suspected militants' whenever they feel like it. So, when the West Bank falls to Hamas and rockets start coming, are you going to say that the 'Palestinians started it.' Or are you going to be intelligent enough to realize that what happens next October and November are going to be Palestinian reactions to the actions of Israel in June and July?

The IDF, Erekat and Hamas all are correct that there is neither moral nor military eqivialence between 'sides.' Only the IDF is correct, however, as to the nature of the actual moral balance. Here is the formula by which to determine the correct such balance: Ask which side would stop firing were the other side unilaterally to bring itself into compliance with international legal prescription. The answer in the present case is obvious. Israel would, and so Israel is morally in the right. Were all pals to cease firing at civilians and recognize Israel's right to exist, Israel would stop firing weapons and immediately work to assist in the formation of a viable pal state which it would recognise. Were the Israelis to stop firing, however, the Gaza pals would keep firing away at civilians, and would continue to say there can be no Jewish state. Until this changes, Israel ought and will continue to fight, sparing civilians as can but not bending backwards to spare willing 'human shields.'

The report is a monument to bias and stupidity. Looking at what happens all around the world dayly, including the lost of paletinian civilian life at the hand of palestinians, and Arab civilians at the hand of Arabs, to condem Israel is pure anti-Semitism. Shame on you bastards!

You will never get an answer from brainwoshed zombi like Natali. In first instant of rocket ataks from Mexico she will demand from US goverment to talk to Mexico as country thet lost lans to USA in War. But after her comfortable living, husband buisness and car will be damage she will immediatly turn into the rightist. becouse what she is , just another American hedonistic nincompup.

"and renounce the targeted killings and the shooting of children or the murder of Palestinian families having a day on the beach." You do know don't you, that all Israeli shells fired that day were accounted for it was determined that it was most likely an old shell that had exploded, or a Hamas mine buried in the beach, because Hamas began to mine the beach after Israelis killed a few qassam cells by coming in via the ocean. So much for your being open to both sides. Better to perpetuate lies and myths, correct, Labhras.

"As to "getting my information in order", my source is former classmate who works in the U.S. State Department. He has almost daily contact with a counterpart in Israel`s intelligence agency" This idiot "forgot" that Hamas was ordered by the Egyptians to publically apologize for launching dozens of qassams at Israel, diverting blame away from themselves, Hamas, who blew up their own children at a Hamas hate rally with ordnance bumped around in Hamas pickups. No surprise here, right? I treat my dog better than Hamas treats Palestinian children.

Why does the IDF object to the Human Right Watch report? The correct response is to totally ignore it. Do Israel and the Jewish people need Human Rights Watch to teach them morality? Do we need the Palestinians or the Quartet to teach us morality? Not in a million years. The correct response is not to allow Human Rights Watch into Israel, nor give them any information-how many rockets fired, etc. As far as this contravening your belovesd democracy, no state is required to commit suicide to preserve democracy. Would Israel allow Nazis to hold a convention in Israel? Human Rights Watch is the same thing.

Weird

"Once again, the people with "collective intelligence" forget one simple fact: Hamas declared a unilateral "cease fire" in 2005. It was broken only AFTER IDF artillery killed Palestinians on a Gaza beach in June of 2006." Hamas launched dozens of qassams after Hamas exploded ordnance at one of their hate rallies leading up to the elections in 2005. This event was also after the Hamas participated in the abduction of Gilad

"Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri rejected the report's comparison "We are pushed to defend Palestinian civilians with the means that we have." We defend Palestinian civilians by shoving our children on the front lines, hidng our "brave fighters" behind women and children, throwing live human beings off of balconies, dragging injured men off the operation table, using radio to recruit women and human shields, inviting Israselis back into Gaza with each and every qassam.. No wonder pro-Palestinian supporters adore Hamas!

Post #39 asks, "ANOTHER ROCKET WHERE DID IT COME?", and then continues to answer his own question, "FROM GAZA, OF COURSE." He then has the audacity to say that there was never a cease fire. My Post #33 clearly acknowledges that AFTER June of 2006, Hamas broke their self imposed cease fire. BUT only AFTER the Gaza beach killings in June 2006. Post #39 really has chutzpah to distort the facts of my post which are available to all. As to "getting my information in order", my source is former classmate who works in the U.S. State Department. He has almost daily contact with a counterpart in Israel's intelligence agency. His contact claims that to the best of Mossad's knowledge, Hamas had not fired rockets into Israel for the 17 months preceding the Gaza beach killings by Israeli artillery in June of last year. While Mossad is often accused of many things, their intelligence agents do their very best to separate "fact from fiction". That's their job

"...we cannot equate between what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank with what Palestinians do." That is, in fact, correct. Palestinians deliberately target civilians in acts of terror. Israel defensively targets these terrorists, who intentionally hide themselves in a cowardly manner among the civilian population, which, in itself, is a breach of international law. There is indeed no comparison.

straghten your twisted mind.Israel is not better at controling the arab terror.Every other country would be much better. Russia leveled the chechen terrorists.When it comes to palis, any other country would do the same. It is time for Israel to take of the kid gloves.

THER ARE NO SETTLERS TAKING THE LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS . THE MANDATE SAYS JEWS CAN LIVE ANBYWHERE IN BIBLICAL ISRAEL

I consider the WB-settlements against the Israeli law; in my opinion the settlers should abide to the Israeli Law and NOT take the law into their own hands! I have in these forums consistently voiced THIS my opinion! As for the IDF supervising the WB, it is necessary for Israel's national security in order to prevent suicide-terrorism, which I presume you must have heard of? - The Gaza-beach incident, just like the Jenin "massacre" incident, is hanging in the air. The Jenin has been proved to have been a Pal-fabrication and the Gaza-beach incident acc. to what I read at that time, claimed that there were mines in the beach, whom the Pals themselves had burried in the sand once, in order to prevent an Israeli embarkment from the sea. I do not know what the exact truth is. Therefore, without blaming any of the sides, I feel sorry for the girl, who lost her family in this horrific accident. Labhras, we should pursue for the Truth, NOT for info that supports our prejudices.

LABBY, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET IT INTO YOUR COCONUT THAT THE ONLY TREATY THAT APPLIES IS THE 1922 MANDATE WHICH IS THE SOLE SOLE SOLE BASIS FOR ISRAELS LEGALITY AS IT IS FOR EVERY OTHER MANDATED TERRITORY OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE ! NO MATTER WHAT GAMES COURTS PLAY BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE APPEALED !!

TRY IT AND REWRITE YOUR POST

you wrote;'Please, Labhras, show some humane pity and exhort the Pals to renounce violence against Israel; this way your sympathy will be more constructive for the Pals and respectful of the two parties. Thank you." Please Alicia, show some humane pity and exhort the Isy,s to renounce the Illegal Settlemnt expansion and the Collective Punishement of the "Palestinian People, which is a war crime, and renounce the targeted killings and the shooting of children or the murder of Palestinian families having a day on the beach. You are a one sided do gooder dear Alicia and not likely to achieve very much in your efforts.

Human right groups criticize Israel's responding with artillery to populated Palestinian areas, where the cowardly Palestinian terrorists fire at Israel with full knowledge that they are using their population centers as a human shield. It is extremely easy to criticize Israel. So I ask the "morally superior" human rights groups, what is the correct protocol of response does Israel need to follow in order not to be condemned? We regretfully do not live in Disneyland. There is no magic bullet that swerves around innocents to selectively hit the terrorists that attack us. Bringing in Israeli troupes also will cause unnecessary carnage on both sides, and will "sustain" the "occupation". So I respectively ask these groups to provide alternatives before condemning Israel.

Human Rights Watch is correct about war crimes being committed by both sides. Does this mean that both sides are equally condemnable? Not necessarily. Even in ordinary criminal cases, two people may commit the same crime but one may receive a much lighter sentence than the other, indicating a lower culpability. The Palestinians fire rockets into civilian areas. The rockets are rather ineffective and use mostly to frighten the population. It is a war crime, nevertheless. But if the responsible Palestinians end up before an objective court he would be able to say that the rocket was his only means to retaliate against the occupation and related crimes committed against his people. This would be a mitigating circumstance. If Mofaz (former Defense Minister) stands before an objective war crime tribunal and says: Qassams were fired against us so I ordered cannons to fire into empty areas, and no closer than 100 meters to the nearest house when the typical error in aiming is up to 100 meters, but some civilians were killed when the shells strayed more than 100 meters from the target; Mofaz might be told: 1. The 100 meters is only the standard deviation, but the probability of a larger deviation is still large. 2. You had other choices. You could have used helicopters to fire missiles into the empty lots, with greater accuracy, or just do other things with aircraft. I am afraid that here Mofaz would go to jail for an even longer period than the Qassam commanders. A heavier punishment for a lighter crime, and this will still be called, and be, justice.

Sorry, but I can't take this organizations proclamations seriously anymore when it is obviously in the hands of biased ideologues.

Israel has every human right to defend herself against aggression.

However, this is easy, even for Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. If they are so concerned about the Israeli response to rockets all the pals have to do is stop the rockets. The Israei's will respond in kind. That ain't gonna happen, why? The pals want rockets and believe they can force Israelis out of the border areas as a first step to terrorizing the general population. What is a relatively few dead of their own toward the larger goal of Jihad?

WHY GAZA OF COURSE ! THERE NEVER WAS CEASE FIRE AND USING THE ARAFAT TECHNIQUE YOU BLAME SOMEONE ELSE ! TRY AND GET YOUR MISINFORMATION IN ORDER

The truth is a bore is it not Brant. By the way I abhor all violence, whether it is perpetrated by Gazans on Gazans, West bankers on West Bankers or Gazans plus west bankers on Israelis or Israelis on Gazans and West Bankers which happens to represent the majority of the violence and all to steal someone elses land. You are the one who should be hanging you head in shame. The us and Israel are amongst the least liked or safest countries in the world. Ever asked yourself why.I envy you. You have much to learn.

MEDIA ? Newspaper editors received orders warning them off hard coverage of street crackdowns and directing them how to write about nuclear talks between Iran and European Union. BOOKS ? Publishers, who need government permission to print and distribute books, report that rules have become harsher. (Associate Press 1-07-07 )

CLOTHING ? Islamic dress codes in Tehran are being more heavily enforced, with hundreds of arrests. EXECUTIONS ? Annual number of executions has nearly doubled to at least 177, according to Amnesty International, although most were not political. LABOR ? Bus drivers and other workers fired and arrested for union organizing, and nearly 300 teachers arrested after demanding higher pay. Most freed after spending days, week or months behind bars, but many cases remain open. POLITICS ? Freedom Movement of Iran, opposition party banned from meeting in public, says that for first time it unable to meet even in private home. U.S. Connection ? Four visiting Iranian-Americans arrested and charged with endangering national security. WOMEN ? At least 33 women arrested at protests in recent months against laws that permit polygamy, marriage at age 13, and other customs women regard as discrimination. (Associated Press 1-6-07)

CLOTHING ? Islamic dress codes in Tehran are being more heavily enforced, with hundreds of arrests. EXECUTIONS ? Annual number of executions has nearly doubled to at least 177, according to Amnesty International, although most were not political. LABOR ? Bus drivers and other workers fired and arrested for union organizing, and nearly 300 teachers arrested after demanding higher pay. Most freed after spending days, week or months behind bars, but many cases remain open. POLITICS ? Freedom Movement of Iran, opposition party banned from meeting in public, says that for first time it unable to meet even in private home. U.S. Connection ? Four visiting Iranian-Americans arrested and charged with endangering national security. WOMEN ? At least 33 women arrested at protests in recent months against laws that permit polygamy, marriage at age 13, and other customs women regard as discrimination. (Associated Press 1-6-07)

I could call your claims lies but I will allow the Israeli HCJ speak for me. See Beit Zourik V Israel 2056/04.Please do read it.The court is crystal clear on whether or not territories are Occupied and even uses the term 'Belligerent Occupation'. Need any better evidence.I won,t trouble you with the opinion of the ICJ or most of the rest of this planet. As to the rest of your post, it is just the usual huff and puff denial. BTW I am not a Palestinian so that water is no more mine than it is yours. Meantime have a nice day.

Once again, the people with "collective intelligence" forget one simple fact: Hamas declared a unilateral "cease fire" in 2005. It was broken only AFTER IDF artillery killed Palestinians on a Gaza beach in June of 2006. Perhaps the people with "collective intelligence" also have "collective forgetfulness".

because live and freedom are sacred human rights of every human being without distinction. Let's hear about those nice civilized people who live in the only-democracy-in-the-MiddleEast, believe that they are superior?

by how Pal-terrorism has turned against the Pals and made their everyday life and simple, normal daily routines in Gaza a hell. Doesn't this make the Pals and their supporters like you, think and think hard that terrorism against Israel is making their life intolerable. They need to STOP for their own good!!! Their terrorism also feeds Israeli paranoia more and more and this definately makes things worse for the Pals....and NOT "liberating" them from anything! The longer they persist on terrorism, the deeper they will sink into their self-made pit. Please, Labhras, show some humane pity and exhort the Pals to renounce violence against Israel; this way your sympathy will be more constructive for the Pals and respectful of the two parties. Thank you.

you wrote: "Curious what the good citizen of Los Angelos would do (or justify her government doing) if 2,700 locally made rockets were lobbed from Mexico to LA since September 2005?" What if the good [AND, well-informed and FREE TO SUPPORT JUSTICE WITHOUT BEING ACCUSED OF ANTI-SEMITISM BY THE ADL AND THE LIKE, IN THE US-ZIOCONTROLLED] citizen would ask this basic question: Why would rockets-locally made would be fired?

International law requires military bases to be away from civilian population centres. If Hamas [or Hezbollah in Lebanon] operates from civilian blocks of flats, Israel cannot avoid civilian casualties when targeting missile launchers.

the number of israeli victims of legitimate resistance against illegal occupation of their land should = the number of Palestinian people being on a daily basis being murdered to make room for more land thieves, which means that they should have similar arms (hilicopters, huge army, and the advanced weapons, including the illegal ones that IDF use), and also similar $US billions in military aid.

You forgot number 9 on your list. 9,Iran & Syria can't send planeloads of missiles to Hamas. Nine TRUMPS all other eight complaints. No rational person or Government thinks that Gaza should have Air & sea ports completely under Hamas control.No rational gov't including MOST muslim coutries. Do you realize how many Palestinian civillians would die if Hamas were allowed to freely import weapons by Air & Sea? Israel would eventually have to re-occupy Gaza in no time, and civillians would suffer because the terrorists fight MOST COWARDLY from within populated cities and streets hiding behind the women and children who support them.

Woe unto any nation that doesn't defend it's innocent Men Women & Children from terrorist murderers that target them. Even if the civillian popualtion that support and fund the terrorist organization are harmed as reasonable collateral damage. Israel is more moral than any other country in the World in it's way of dealing with Palestinian terror. That explains the INCREDIBLY LOW number of civillians killed or injured relative to ALL other similar struggles around the world, and especially relative to what the Israeli army COULD do if they didn't show TREMENDOUS restraint.

5) I'm unfamiliar with that one, url to content of agreement, please. 6) Wrong. If the PA wasn't embezzling money and spending it on weapons, it's have money to pay teachers. Facts show the PA got more money in 2006 than 2005, thanx to Arab countries, where's the teacher pay? 7) Another claim Israel shouldn't have control over it's own borders. Send the carnations to Egypt, rather than whining about Israel not buying enough flowers from people at war with us. 8) Israel doesn't "open" the Rafah crossing. It's the PA and Egypt who do that w/EU supervision. That your violence closes the crossing is your problem, again. When you stop supporting war to exterminate a sovereign nation, and make peace, then you see peace. I know, a surprise for those of you who abhor logic, but true.

Hamas tells the truth what they want, where Fatah are just better liars. Read this great article. Both want to eliminate Israel. They just disagree on how to do it. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/875940.html

Gee, Labhras, every time I look at the map I see this line that looks like the Egypt-Gaza border. There are NO Israeli troops in Gaza, and the Palestinians could do all their imports and exports via Egypt. Why not? Then they could have their nice border, sell their goods, and stop sending suicide bombers and gunmen in shipping containers to Israel. Get it through your head - the Palestinians have been constantly attacking Israeli civilians and border installations for years. The Palestinian government is Gaza is HAMAS - and they have said repeatedly the do NOT want peace with Israel, nor do they want Palestinians to work in Israel, nor do they want to use the Israeli border for anything other than armed attacks. Gaza is occupied by the Iranian colonial Hamas army, not by Israel.

The lands aren't occupied because the Arabs rejected UNR181 and a 2nd Pal majority nation, they're disputed. The Arabs themselves are occupied only to the extent that they declared and continue to fight such a war. If they wanted to end the war, negotiate peace and build a civil society, there'd be peace; but that's a choice they continue to avoid. As for the specific points L mentioned: 1) They can from Egypt, if they follow the agreements they signed, but they won't. Meanwhile, Israel has a right to control its own borders, which L won't grant. 2) Again travel. While you're at war with us, we have a right to see who goes in and out. The lecturer is not under Israeli control once he's in Gaza. 3) Wrong. Israel only exercises control if the Pal parents aren't in the territories. 4) Same border issue. Israel has a right to ensure fisherman are just that, not smugglers into a people at war with us. Since you're not a country, you have no "waters"

The more you try to defend the indefensible and ugly violence of Hamas is Gaza,against both Palestinians and Jews, the more you need to resort to tired lists and statistics. Your boring, doctrinaire approach is perfect as it permits you to ignore the incessant acts and provocations and chartered threats and religious fatwahs and pulpit-thumping orders aimed only at the destruction of Israel. The Gazans can get their tomatoes to market through Egypt, except now even the Egyptians don't want to let them across that border. Blind and deaf idealogues like you have no capacity to understand that Israel is not going to permit itself to be destroyed by zealots with masked faces. And, that missing capacity of yours says way more about you, Labrhas, than about any of the parties to the conflict.

Your reports make no difference, because we all know what is happening. We are fully aware, we are concientious of the reality. SO: what is the point the HRW is making? Answer: Hot air! IF you have no solutions to present to help to change the situation somehow for the better, then there is only one thing for the HRW and other similar org.s like it to do: shut up! You are nothing but a part of the problem NOT a part of the constructive solution, we all are DESPERATE for! STOP stirring the explosive soup - soon it will explode in your faces too, unless you change your policy for a more sensible and CONSTRUCTIVE one.

David you wrote: "Gaza has been under complete Palestinian control since 2004." Response:1, A Gaza resident cannot bring "IN" a crate of milk without Israel,s ok 2, A Gaza University cannot receive a visit from a foreign Lecturer without a visitor,s visa from Israel. 3, A Gaza mother cannot register her child in the Palestinian population registry without permission from Israel. 4, A Gaza fisherman cannot fish off the "GAZA` coast without permission from Israel. 5 A Gaza non profit org cannot receive a tax exempt donation without Israel,s permission. 6, A Gaza teacher cannot receive her salary unless Israel agrees to transfer tax revenues to the Palestinian Minister of Education 7, A Gaza farmer cannot get his carnations or cherry tomatoes to market unless Israel allows the goods to leave Gaza. 8, A Gaza student cannot travel abroad to study unless Israel,s opens the Gaza /Eygpt crossing. Complete control???.Yes but by whom.

Well, of course there are bound to be, but one of the chief ones is that Palestinians station themselves in civilian areas to attract fire, have civilians killed, and then cry to the loony left. It works like a charm every time.

We are protecting ourselves from savages and don't need any form of approval from these groups. Go get a properjob!

I spend a couple of hours a day working in/on Hasbara. Which is not propaganda but is public relations A very large amount of mine time is spent clearing up damage done by totally unthinking and lazy Israeli journalists. They are not stupid but are happy to include 'Gaza strongman Dachlan' etc from their clipboards rather than right anything new or authentic. They continually print unwanted articles about Machsom Watch, Peace Now and BetTzelem etc as they correctly believe that they will receive a lively response. The 'lively response' if of course because people don't want to hear about these fringe groups who would die without the publicity and who should be left to die on the vine.

The official and talkback responses show just how important AI's and HRW's work is. The propagandists of violence for each side will criticize 'moral equidistance'. Others choose more colorful terms for their propaganda. For the late Ayatollah Chomeini, AI was the devil ranking just below the "great Satan". These fine ideologues use such deflections to justify their own incitement and the violence on their sides.

It's a pitty, that so respected organization as HRW fails to see the difference between a democratic nation, which defends itself from terrorism and which does much to avoid civilian casualties and illegitimate terrorist organizations with no agenda other than murder of as many civilians as possible. When HRW mentions at the same breath democracy and darkest criminals against humanity, it discredits itself.

r u nuts ? our job is to point out problems and not to solve them! Only complete fools would try to solve them and 'complete' is not a part of our manifesto! Love, love, love, HRW !

HaAretz - what your readers desperately want is a lot more articles about the extremely sad minorities like the lost souls that depend on you for the very air that they breathe. Minorities that would quickly wither and die without your continuing support. Like the hated Machsom Watch. The loathed Peace Now and the despised Bet Ztlem! If you don't publish more of their pleadings for attention then they will die on the vine! And WE - your readers will love you again! Michael

"From September 2005 until May, Palestinian gunmen fired almost 2,700 locally made rockets toward Israel, killing four Israeli civilians and wounding 75, according to Human Rights Watch." It isn't that the Palestinians are less aggressive, or that they don't mean to kill Israeli citizens. They are more aggressive, and they do mean to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. It's just that their weapon systems are more primitive than Israeli weapon systems. I imagine that Natalie Durson would like the Palestinians to be better armed, and thus able to kill and maim more Israeli civilians.

Sami Abu Zuhri rejected the report's comparison between Israeli and Palestinians. They aim Israeli civilians on purpose using civilian house as launching base for quassam's. In order to have world compassion they do not spare even their families. They don't care if suicide attacks are also killing arabs. The only one thing is able to do the pubblic oppinion is criticize someone that fight for life if Pal's are using civilian's as human shield's Human rights group have to aim their complaint to them. We are constanteli under attack and we have the right to defend our people. If they use human shields we are sorry. SHAME on THEM

fire rockets and expect no response this will continue. so long as world allows pals to get aay with this or israel does not defeat and accept unconditional surrender of pals this bleeding will continue. did i miss it but i only saw three words about the fraternal brotherly love of peaceful islam in gaza.

You're right, Oslo is a disaster. Letting the Arabs control Gaza has allowed them to build up a large army and bring money, soldiers, explosives, etc in from Egypt. Expel all these soldiers from Gaza and take control of the border with Egypt and there will be no more Rockets and no need for Israel to shoot artilery back at the launch sites. (which the arabs choose close to populated areas, hmm, wonder why)

Gaza has been under complete Palestinian control since 2004. The only "occupation" in Gaza is the Palestinians self imposed tyrany and internal bloodleting.

It ALWAYS begins with the Palestinians. Whether the blowiing up of planes and people in the 60s and snd seventies; the "intifadas" and terrorists aof the eighties and nineties and the suicide belts and rockets of the 21st century. The Israelis ALWAYS (to use your own word, 'respond'). Take away the Palestinian acts of violence and carnage; no need for response. Except it gives you and other Israel-hater the perfect opportunity for your very best bleat "IT ALL STARTED WHEN THEY HIT ME BACK"

too bad that the human rights groups are a bunch of naive dreamers that actually cause more human suffering than they prevent. They basically want the conflict to drag out as long as possible so that they have their job security. Makes me sick.

We already know that Erekat is an accomplished liar, so it's no surprise that he tries to escape culpability for Palestinian war crimes. We all recall Erekat on CNN claiming that 500 Palestinians died in the fictional "Jenin massacre". By not accepting "the equation", Erekat says in doublespeak what we all know - it's official Palestinian policy to kill Israeli civilians. The black and white here is nothing new. HRH and Amnesty Intl have said for years that the Palestinians are guilty of crimes against humanity and war crimes. The problem is that nobody except the Israelis seem to care. This is the sick double standard that Erekat seeks to hide behind.

Curious what the good citizen of Los Angelos would do (or justify her government doing) if 2,700 locally made rockets were lobbed from Mexico to LA since September 2005?

This report tells us that the Palestinians and Israelis both violate "the laws of war", but that Israel is much better at it. This is something that we already know. The most interesting bit is that when responding to a Hamas rocket attack, the Israelis consider any Palestinian fair game (use of artillery). This is something that we already know as well, but are surprised to see Israel admit as much.