Herzog: Israeli leaders' remarks led to Goldstone war crime accusations

H: "So in War is it OK to shoot someone in the head if they`re facing you but it`s a war crime if they`re running away." If someone is holding a gun then you can shoot at them regardless of wether they are facing you or running away. If someone *was* holding a gun but is *now* unable (wounded) or unwilling (surrendering) to do so then you can not shoot at them. If someone *never* picks up a gun then you can not shoot them. Get it? The rules of war insist that all soldiers at all times attempt to draw a distinction between "combatants" (shoot!) and "protected persons" (hold your fire!). And "protected persons" are: civilians prisoners of war any soldier who is surrendering any soldier who is "hors de combat" Those rules of war do not care which way *those* dudes are facing and/or which direction they are running i.e. a protected person is a protected person is a protected person. You Can't Shoot **AT** Protected Persons.

if committed by a jew? ONLY when committed against another jew? what you're saying is that suspecting a jew for a crime against a non-jew is anti-semitism? or what exactly is it that you're trying to say? never mind answering. the questions are rhetorical. i KNOW what you're doing. you're trying to hide reality, and fend off its consequences, with that tired old term that has lost all meaning because of its abuse by people like you. why not grow up, gilad? "don't believe them mommy; they made it up because they don't like me" is a child's ploy. i don't think you have the slightest clue what "anti-semitism" really is, because if you DID, you'd not invoke it for things that are NOT associated.

Israel stood accused of war crimes even before Goldstone's inquiry started. Goldstone and the UNHRC anti-Israel crusade is only the latest of many other dirty tricks by the international community intented to demonizing and delegitimizing Israel in order to breng about the progressive liquidation of the Jewish state. Hertzog with all the information availlable to him should know better!

"So in War is it OK to shoot someone in the head if they`re facing you but it`s a war crime if they`re running away." This is ridiculous. The rule you suggest applies to the use of deadly force by police in the US, but is not and never has been relevant to war crimes. Had you made any effort to read Goldstone or the Geneva Conventions, you would understand this. The most important disctinction re war crimes is that between civilian non-combatants and combatants. With the exception of using prohibited wepaons like white phosphorus or poison gas, soldiers can do pretty much whatever they want to combatants (unless they're taken prisoner). Goldstone finds that the IDF deliberately targeted civilians with the intent to punish them for voting for Hamas. If true, this is undeniably a war crime. The IDF fired artillery, including white phosphorus rounds, at schools, hospitals and UN compounds - all actions calculated to kill civilians & deny them safe refuge.

It took me years to get people round a table to actually write a code of conduct for children in school, but even with this hard evidence none of the teachers can clearly define any of the rules. So in War is it OK to shoot someone in the head if they're facing you but it's a war crime if they're running away. Does anybody really believe in this? Aren't soldiers too scared to let the enemy anywhere near them especially when they and half their company might get blown up in the process. Don't terrible things happen in every War? Isn't War a testament to our lowliness, to our inabilty to evolve as Human beings, I think Herzog talks sense. I can't see it any other way. Just more killing, more mourning, more poverty,more alienation and more Nationalism, and it's all down to the guys at the top.Our wonderful self obsessed, opportunistic leaders, all sewn from the same cloth.

even if every israeli leader were to become mute, the world, i.e., the oic and their various allies would do everything in their power to delegitimise israel. there is a concerted effort to demonise israel and at the same time to distract attention from the very real slaughters being committed by muslims worldwide. the west is paralysed with fear of islamic terror and very prone to blackmail by countries with petro-dollars. the resurgence of antisemitism in europe is an additional factor.

With war crimes like destroying civilian infrastructure there is always a question of who gave the orders and why. The politicians made it clear where the idea started. It surely makes the burden of proof for a direct link and cause lighter.

This article in no way refutes or undermines Goldstone. You need to learn to read language in context rather than taking a few comments, distorting them and declaring some nonsensical conclusion. What the article is saying, in part, is that Israeli leaders' words made it obvious to the world that Israel was going and planning on going beserk. This, along with videos of white phosphorous attacks and reports from UN facilities under fire, got the attention of the UN. Nothing in the article remotely suggests that all information considered by Goldstone came from Israeli politicians. In fact, it is clear that little if any of Goldstone is based on such comments except for the determination of the role of politicians in decision making and the complicity of the Israeli government from the top down. Goldstone and his team went to Gaza. He wanted to interview IDF and visit Sderot, but was refused. Had you bothered to read the report you would know this.

Herzog is not an anti-semite, but he is an idiot. Following a horrendous terrorist atrocity in Pakistan that killed over 105 people, today, Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi said: "The resolve and determination will not be shaken.People are carrying out such heinous crimes. They want to shake our resolve. I want to address them: We will not buckle. We will fight you." The FM showed determination, just like Israeli ministers (and Churchill, come to think of it.) Who should be investigated here - the people who try to stand up terrorism or the terrorists. People like Herzog give succor to terror by making stupid statements. Herzog, go home.

"'The Goldstone report accuses Israel's government, not the military,' Herzog said." But of course it does. Israel isn't a military dictatorship, is it? So, there's no military junta at which to point fingers. As in any supposed democracy, there are those who bear responsibility for military actions, particularly when the military is used for political goals: the government. Anyway, who did Herzog expect Goldstone would name? The Israel Symphony Orchestra? Shmuel the taxi driver? Rifka the maid? Get real, Mi(ni)ster Herzog!

Herzog does not realize that in effect he has refuted Goldstone: if the politicians' talk led to that ill-conceived report, it means that Goldstone had no "actions on the ground" to support his allegations but simply relied on "loose talk". Herzog is right in saying that Israelis suffer from verbal diarreah, but that is not grounds for accusations and a report based on personal political prejudices.

Israel has systematically terrified and disrupted the lives of over 3 million people for 40 years. This is worse than the crimes you list. Yes, some Muslims are committing terrorist acts in several places in the world, though not currently in Israel. The casualties never reach 1000, much less 1M. On the WB alone over 2 million people are arbitrarily threatened, abused and humiliated every day. Israel may not be killing millions, but its misconduct makes the lives of millions miserable and terifying. This is worse, to me, than killing even hundreds. In Gaza, Israel has committed a humanitarian nightmare for civilans, rendering the lives of 1.4 million Gazan civilians desperate and miserable. The only place in the world where so many people's lives are rendered so intolerable by humans is the Sudan. Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other countries may not treat their population, especially women, well but nothing comparable to treatment of Pals.

although seeing pictures of kids with their heads blown off, reports of children been left to starve to death next to the bodies of their dead mothers, probably had something to do with it as well. Countries which Israel could have relied on in the past had to respond to the outcry of their respective electorate who had seen the reports in their media and more importantly on the Internet. Israel can no longer be seen to act with impunity to the death of civilians. Regardless of what the IDF said they did to avoid civilian casualties, images of dead bodies particularly children drown out any argument. Operation Cast Lead was probably the last large scale military action against the Palestinian people by Israel in support of the occupation of the West Bank.

nation located in the midds of worst bloody savagery . It is fervently expected of her to lay down a die without a fight . Sorry , can't please your everlasting old fetish this time .

Herzog is fabulous. He has started probably earlier but will be needed in the future. He should concentrate on a clear message, to lift the veil on the failure of the Palestinian leaders, by a good and enlightened example on the Israeli side. Same problem, same solution. Seek an end to violence, promoted by the Grand Mufti, Arafat, Meshal.....

Israel does not want to face it, but the only reason why there is a Goldstone report is because of their army's actions!

What the comment meant? "We must not delude ourselves that if we investigate the investigation this report will disappear," Johnboy writes: "Translation: the best strategy is to stick our head in the sand until this goes away." Mark replies: My interpretation was, an internal investigation will clear Israel of the charges. Nothing to do with "head in the sand" which yours seems to be. Interesting bias you have.

not speaking would not have changed the war crimes committed by the war criminals

Herzog, you are a good abservator. This mentality, of the Israeli elite that taps on a superiorty conplexes, originated from the internal attitude of some bobby maises Ashkenazes over the Golda Meyer's "The White Man's burden" belief, borrowed from the French-English Imperialistic reasoning, stemming out from the Judeo-Christian believes. Unfortunately, Mr Herzog, spining indefenitly and just for the sake of manipulating one's own stupidity, talking in our public arena, The Knesset and Media, is part and parcel of the Israeli hedonism. You just can't help, it'll lead us to oblivion.

and it's the very same news: there will be many many more "cast leads" before...well i don't know before what,as i have no idea how this will play out.it does not auger well.you and i will be long gone however,so,after us the deluge,must be our comfort.

...but why did he pop up so-late-in-the-game...?!

Let Goldstone come over and do the investigation! Let him see real evidence on the Israeli side.

The present leaders of Israel are behaving like a bunch of fools. Goldstone provided Israel with many opportunities to tell the world Israel's side but all he got in return was a slap on the face from Israel's leadership.

Of course there was a 'common plan' by the government to destroy Gaza and kill as many people as possible. Yet again we see propaganda and lies - damage control if you like - trying to convince us that these professional politicians were just mouthing off and that the resulting death and destruction was purely coincidental. Only the truly self-deluded believe this bull.

junior ministers. He is wrong: it is convictions that led G/stone tp lend his name to the enemies of Israel. Just a tempest in leftists teapot.

Ha'aretz writes that Herzog said "The report concludes that the government knowingly decided to destroy Gaza." Destroy Gaza? Either Ha'aretz missed something in translating Herzog's Hebrew, or Herzog is now a tool for Palestinian propaganda. There may have been a lot of destruction in Gaza, but Gaza not even close to being "destroyed". It could be that it's remarks from the likes of Herzog that are successfully bending Cast Lead so far from reality that nobody can even deal with it any more. Gaza was not destroyed, and Herzog's lie only stokes the fires of those who wish to warp reality against Israel. Herzog should focus on the 8 years of Palestinian war crimes that preceded and caused Cast Lead.

Would that those leaders will wash their feet before sitting down to have a bite.

....the harsher the language, the bigger the reward at the Israeli ballot box, must have been the common thinking there.

If you have not experienced anti-Semitism directly, and for who have the result of which is the internalization that there is no logic to anti-Semitism, then you do not understand that it is still out there, here and now. The good thing about Israel is that most Israeli Jews have been shielded from anti-Semitism. The bad news is that there are far too many naïve Israeli?s out there.

Operation Cast Lead is what led to the report.

Goldstone should have had the judgement and insight to sift 'chatter' from reality. We now see he did not have the level of neutrality and discernment necessary for this sensitive investigation. His bias was there to begin with, he ignored some material, he included other dubious ones. And then without allowing for the fact that he had masses of missing evidence, an important hidden dynamic prevailed to guide his judgement. Remember he was pushed off his pedestal by Israel who ignored him. He then struck with harsh force to punish Israel. His personal arrogance guided him. What poor ethics he has. His subsequent mealy mouthed pronouncements on TV confirm further that he is self-delusional and is a liar at base. Of course, someone so arrogant does not have the personal tools to unravel his own self (Jewish) hatred. Richard, one of the reasons for the immense anger against you among world Jewry is that you acted as badly as the "usual" suspects, the anti-semitics of old and new.

"These are people with a lofty title but without any real influence on military actions," - Herzog Is this a true insult Herzog is leveling at his fellow members of the Gov't he belongs to? At which case he is just one of many loud-mouths who's ability to impact the operation of the gov't is non-existent. (why didn't HE do something at the time? - is he just another powerless tool?) Or is this an attempt at minimization? An attempt to try and isolate these war criminals away from the rest of the Gov't? An offering of sacrifice in an attempt to save the rest of the corrupt Gov't? Place all the blame on this named set of impotent blustering loudmouths, so that they take the butt of the blame for the entire top-to-bottom failure of everyone involved? Hard to tell. But I'm not sure how effective the tactic of painting YET ANOTHER set of back-to-back Israeli administrations as bumbling impotent loudmouths is going to play for Israel in the long run.

There is this wrongly assumption,that whatever Israel does, it bears no significant consequences, but some juridically non-binding resolutions from the UN, ignoring the fact, that many high-profiled faces are at stake, some of them actually from their few allies.

Let him lead commitee in Gaza. They are already "investigating". I think his friend as of late have great tolerance to yarmulka, as long as what is underneath is not disturbing.

Obviously Isaac Herzog lives in the real world, and of course he's absolutely right. the Israeli government of the day set the tone and agenda for the rules of engagement for the Gaza war with their political hype, and warmongering rhetoric, and we all know the result and the repercussions!

From the report: -- Statements by Israeli political and military leaders prior to and during the military operations in Gaza indicate that the Israeli military conception of what was necessary in a war with Hamas viewed disproportionate destruction and creating the maximum disruption in the lives of many people as a legitimate means to achieve not only military but also political goals. -- Moreover the report makes explicit mention of statements by military personnel, e.g. Col. Gabriel Siboni and Major Avital Leibovich to mention but two. The premise of the article is pure foolishness.

this so-called "war" was a punitive action. no less so than house demolitions; only on a much larger scale. of these three players, only barak exhibited sought to end it once the bulk of the damage to hamas was completed. the other two were considerably more callous, insisting instead on the ground invasion, which levied the punishment against the civilian population. israel couldn't have punished the civilians the way it did using strictly aerial bombardment without eliciting the world's outcry and condemnation. it needed the ground invasion in order to provide the guise of combat(of which, by the idf's own accounts, there was very little), for giving the appearance that the massive destruction of homes and businesses the idf wrought was the legitimate consequences of battle.

...this comment by Shalev is tacked onto the end of the article: "We must not delude ourselves that if we investigate the investigation this report will disappear," Translation: the best strategy is to stick our head in the sand until this goes away. She doesn't seem to realize that if your head is in the sand then your arse must be flappin' in the breeze.... Herzog, you must read such comments and despair, because it proves that the inmates are running the asylum, and that they have learnt nothing and that they comprehend nothing.

Perhaps Israel is not doomed! I had never expected a word of wisdom comming out of the mouth of any Israeli ministers of the current Ultra Nationalist regime, but here is a man who understands reality!

Israel was correct not to take part in the Kangaroo Court. All that would have happened was that Goldstone would be able to say that Israel gave its version and it was not credible. There was no need for Israel to give a verneer of fairness to Goldstone.

So the problem was utterances by a couple of ministers. Please advise then how every day utterance by Hamas, Hamas Charter, and similarly for PA re temple mountain incitements, Dahalan and Co stating never actually agreed to Israel existence, etc, etc - DID NOT Register even a BEEP on the scale. Selective Logic at best - most like low form of politicing. Second logic - should have cooperated - would the outcome be any different ?? (show us the logic !!! - not just words). Last resolution was not even mentioning Hamas so did it matter they were in the document? Goldstone led his name to the report and it is used accordingly. Would you expect that they would listen to Israel or just pick & choose & interpret the way they planned from the start. It is easy to make statements - should have , could have, etc - but one needs to provide proper analysis the risk & benefits. You blame others for making of the cuff statements - take the lead and explain your logic - showing risk quantification

The IDF had reached its goal of stopping rocket attacks after first week, then gov. stepped in to order punishment of Gaza as revenge on Hamas for rocket attacks and to send a message not to mess with Israel. This can only be proved by questioning the IDF officers but gov. will never let this happen. If IDF ordered to punish Gaza then that is a war crime and part of reason behind Goldstone report. Israel had the legal right to stop rocket attacks but IDF when beyond that based on IDF's own reports and reports from UN/Aid workers in Gaza, the only question is who ordered it. Israel gov. is fighting Goldstone report so hard because there is some truth in it.

During Cast Lead Israel attacks which were gratuitous, unnecessary and lead directly to the Goldstone Commission were not the mindless blather of minor politicians. It was when Israel, flushed with glee, chose to bomb UN schools, shelters and warehouses with particular attention given to destroying the UN HQ and warehouses with incendiary White Phosphorous that the investigation became unavoidable. The gratuitous attack upon UN forces had become a signature of Israeli actions since the invasion of Lebanon in 1982. It had become a never missed event by the l1996 Qana massecre. In that instance the shelling included a shift in ordinance showed a malicious intent. In the Second Lebanon war a UN post was attacked as well as UN convoys of refugees given 'safe passage' by Israel. The Israeli right has a particular hatred for the UN and that was given free reign during Cast Lead. The attacks targeted UN shelters, warehouses, schools, and red cross ambulances. They led to Goldstone,

It is OK to plan and carryout war crimes as long as you don't publically admit it. That way you can do what you like and pay no diplomatic price for your actions.

When everything fails to find a reason for anti-Semitism, the thirst for a reason overrides logic. Thus you'll always find Jews who will find relief in blaming themselves. For some, anything is better than confronting an evil that is so old, irrational and devastating, that it becomes metaphysical. So, of course, there will be those who will blame ourselves for Goldstone, for Arab lies and incitement over the Temple Mount, or go as far as blame ourselves for the butchered children that Hamas has bombed in buses and markets, streets and markets. And anything goes like that. Plus, when Jews fall prey of this neurosis, anti-Semites applaud: "Yes ! Yes! It's You who are to blame for Hamas and Hezballah's rockets !" It's better to find oneself to blame, than having to deal with something as abstract as Jewish fate. So both Goldstone and Herzog. Please Haaretz, don't swallow up my post.

Mr. Herzog, the world isn't really looking at the statements of Israeli leaders. They're looking more closely at the action on the ground and the Goldstone commission was set up precisely because of perceived atrocities on the ground. Israeli leaders routinely make blatantly racist and bellicose statements, so I don't think this time was any different. It just so happened that the UN and many others finally got fed up and took some action of their own. I only hope this time around Israeli leaders will finally get the message that they can no longer act with total impunity and there will be consequences to such crimes.

it's not what was said during the offensive...the actions in Gaza is what brought the Goldstone report to light. Israel Did in fact commit war crimes in Gaza.

"people with a lofty title but without any real influence" Sorry, Sir. These people have *major* influence - they start wars, obstacle reconciliation, etc, etc. When you elect these people and put them in power, THEY use the IDF, Mossad, Police to do things they order.

Perhaps Israel is not doomed! I had never expected a word of wisdom comming out of the mouth of any Israeli ministers of the current Ultra Nationalist regime, but here is a man who understands reality! Haaretz, must you cencor this as well, or is that something you do if I include the terminology "neo-fascist" when speaking about the Israeli government? Never the less, I`ll try and post this a coupple of times to see If I am still being automatically censored... Anyway, it is good to see that there are people with working minds even in a government of Ultras!

Dialogue with whom? The cabal of 3rd world dictators that compose the UNHRC? Cope with what? More years of rocket fire into our homes?

The UN Human Rights body is always gunning to bring Israel down. Government ministers with loose lips were immaterial to the result. Had Israel cooperated it would have not only been condemned regardless of the evidence submitted in defense but would have surrendered jurisdiction of the case to the UN and the ICC.

Goldstone "facts" don't mention the Israeli ministers-so he had made up the facts because of his grudge against the Israeli Goverment ministers-but Herzog treats him and his accusations seriously.

Maybe according to Herzogs take on his governments comments, Iran should reconsider it's hundreds of threats against a country which never attacked it, it shares no border with, and whose people have never suffered due to the country threatened. What abject nonsense. This is hysterical. Israel has fought 7 wars in 60 years, all of them started by it's enemies, yet it has no right to bitch and moan? Oh puleeze. We all know the history of the disengagement..what about recalling it's motive, a good faith gesture, followed by 10,000 rockets. Jihad, jihad, jihad, kill the Jews, push them into the sea..I don't hear any Arab being critical of those words. Any Iranians criticize comments about "Next year in Jerusalem", or "Zionism is a cancer", or "We will strike the heart of the Zionist state". Oh me oh my, I mean why tolerate such stupid remarks., blaming the victims? This is too much even for me, accustomed to self-hating Israeli Jews..who cannot see their noses in front of their faces.

Just because they said a harsh response is needed dosent mean they brought the war crimes charges down on Israel. The Goldstone report would have found war crime charges if Israel would have attacked with feather pillows. If talk was all that was needed, Iran and the other enemies of Israel would have worse charges filed against them, but htis WILL NEVER HAPPEN. And you know why...

What a breath of fresh air to hear an honest, objective and sensible appraisal from within the coalition. He has said more of value and interest to the world on this issue in one brief speech than Netanyahu, Lieberman and associates have in 6 months of self-serving Zio-wuffle. Now Herzog as PM, that's an interesting idea...

I don't think so !

The question is what orders were given and how they were carried out, only the soldiers can answer this. The IDF soldiers are in the middle this and they did a great job the first week of campaign but the last 2 weeks is where most the deaths and destruction happened and it seems their orders were changed. This is also when some Israeli leaders spin changed from stopping the rocket attacks to sending a strong message to Hamas. The IDF officers know the truth but will they be allowed to talk to commission is the question.

and Tyre, Sidon, Damascus and the other terrorist headquarters... in fact, wussy-pussy old oestrogenated woman Barak did nothing of the kind, but caused a perception of Israel losing... to the detriment of Israel's respect in the international anti-semitic "community".

no bullets needed, stop trade with Gaza and Hamas will be at the mercy of the cruel Egyptian dictator. He knows how to handle Muslim Brotherhood.

Unlike most Israeli politicians (e.g. Barak, Sharon, Olmert, Livni, etc.) who constantly talk about peace, all the while making war.

Its unbelievable. Muslims are blowing themselves up in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, not to mention war crimes in Somalia, Sri Lanka et al, and all the world can focus on is little Israels right to self defense. As I have mentioned before, This report will come back to haunt the west. I hope this won't be censored like the majority of my emails are.

Much of the damage caused by the Goldstone Report has come from two sources. Israel's refusal to take part, thus denying much exculpatory or mitigating evidence being the first. The second being the belief that a media blitz of smearing Goldstone and the report would destroy him and his work. It is beginning to sink in that israel has badly harmed itself by such asinine behavior. Major (res) Herzog will no doubt be deemed an anti-Semite by some, but he clearly is not. His advice for israeli politicians should be noted. Many things were said by many politicians before and during Cast Lead which have haunted Israel. As have comments about Goldstone and the report. I wonder if our VP, Joe Biden, contracted his spasmodic and impulsive noise hole flapping during a visit to Israel. It is bad enough when a politician inserts his foot in his mouth. But when he inserts his nation's foot in his mouth he has done damage.