Hamas the cripple, Gaza the doomed

just because you omit the pogroms in alleppo bagdad,hebron ,jaffa in the 1920's and 1930's does not mean they did not occur.jews have always delegated to the dhimmies of arab society.not being able to testify against a moslem in court,not being able to ride a horse.and many other restrictions.before you post you should do some research,lest you lose credibility

I'll just mention one word to reflect the status of the Jews "DHIMMI", second class inhabitants of Arab lands...

True, they may not have accurate guidance systems, but they certainly are pointed in the direction of Sderot... That doesn't mean they're harmless, far from it... Your statement that the "often fall on the Palestinians themselves", should help convince some of them, that when children play with unexploded ordnance and are killed or hurt, it was fired by their brothers and fathers

I am more than happy to be in a class all my own. You, on the other hand, should be careful about making certain pacts.

S, I am glad we share one friend. Not many on this board who share my (reasonable) views, so the idea is to get some help sometimes from people who only share part of the view. Lakshmi is an anti-zionist, and I don't deal with her on zionism. There are other people who take her on on this. But I can get help from her on anti-settler matters, etc, so at least we have something in common. As Churchill said, "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. "

S, I am glad we share one friend. Not many on this board who share my (reasonable) views, so the idea is to get some help sometimes from people who only share part of the view. Lakshmi is an anti-zionist, and I don't deal with her on zionism. There are other people who take her on on this. But I can get help from her on anti-settler matters, etc, so at least we have something in common. As Churchill said, "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. "

"Mr. S, are we ever going to be rubbing noses?" (Tosefta) I doubt it. Although we share much, and I actually admire some of your disquisitions, I will never, ever, put up with your (here I repeat myself) vituperations. Besides, we also differ, even... mucher. Finally, we don't share friends - Lakshmi comes to mind; the only exception - dana. Cipora is indeed a special case. In my view she is extremely earnest, in the very best way one can interpret this word; that deserves admiration. Your view and treatment of earnestness is malevolent.

S, I actually do not know the picture, but I did know that in the Middle Ages people had to wear cone hats as a sign of shame. I don't see why this would be a problem with calling one a Cone-Head. I actually gave this term my own meaning, but I more recently checked to see that it is sometimes used currently instead of egg-head (for an intellectual). My own meaning has nothing to do with being an intellectual, but with being an Alien, which may have different body features. I subscribe to the cone-head term. Just because the letter A was used at some point to designate adulterers does not mean the letter should be abolished. The inquisition is long gone, along with their cone hats. As far as estimating people here, Margie of TA strikes me as a quite a shallow person, Jasmine might fall into a similar category (but had less to do with her), and Angelique I had one discussion with - not too impressive, but may depend on the topic; I will wait for more. Dana is very intelligent, but as far as Israel, is too quick to condemn. There are some hidden emotions there. I don?t believe I am in a position to judge many of the people Dana mentioned, but a scale of dumb, dumber, dumbest for apologist I will put Gabe1 as dumbest, Fox and TonyL as dumber, and Jeff Northridge as dumb. Danite is one step up. I am leaving the ladies out, but Cipora is in a class by herself in any case. Mr. S, are we ever going to be rubbing noses?

open google on "Procession of Flagellants, 1815-19 by Francisco Jose de Goya y Lucientes". You will find the paintings with the cone hats. It is a famous painting presently in a Madrid museum. Flagellation was a form of penance in the Christian church later condemned as heretical. What exactly it means (basicaly hurting yourself) you can find in any dictionary. Seeing the painting, you wouldn't want to call anyone that way, even your bitterest enemy. But Tosefta surely knows the painting...

Well, by way of explanation; margie and I had our run-ins, as I did with jasmine (can't expect her to be happy with the pod designation. not to worry - you are not on any list - yet??). That's how it is when people see a situation from different sides. Had I been on margie's side, she'd have probably found me a 'deep thinker". as would your jasmine. I think people can have a little fun with the list as assignments can be made from our side too (not by me of course). Didn't know anything about cone's connection to goya's painting. Tell me about it - maybe change name. It's from tosefta's orginal 'cone-heads" taken after alien characters in "third rock from the sun" sitcom. They were actually smart, but different (hey, it's a sitcom). Tx for the exception (belated compliment? must be.. hepburn..). Sorry but your previous post didn't make it. Real bad dead time zones past week. Lost several posts too. Did not mean as guilt trip. too bad for missed French lesson. make-up homework?

More and more people address you as I did on our first meeting - like from Margie in TA: "My first and lasting impression of you was superficiality" and Jasmine Murphy makes a similar observation. I actually take exception in that I found a feminine quality in it - a la Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffany's... but for a scientist, well, I don't know. By the way, Tosefta's "cone" is extremely insulting. Refresh your memory on Goya's paintings and you will understand!

Totalitarian movements will always disregard humanitarian values, hence they will not hesitate to attack civilians indiscriminately. What Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the goups fighting in Iraq have in common is their total disregard for civilian life. The only reason that Hamas and Hezbollah have not killed many more Israelis is that thus far Israel has been able to defend against their attacks. Neither group, do I believe, would have any moral compunction against an outright slaughter of Israeli civilians. Nor is it in any way proven that they would be satisfied with any concessions from Israel. Nationalist movements do not crave the territory of another sovereign state. Hezbollah's attack last year was an unprovoked act of war with no nationalist aims. The international community saw it as such.

If your argument were correct, then it would be easy to differentiate among the "nationalists" and the "internationalists" in Iraq. Yet, it is impossible to do so since the Sunnis are often allied with Al Qaeda, and the Shiaa are allied with Iran. Furthermore, the aims of Al Qaeda are in many respects nationalist. They first want to "liberate" Saudi Arabia. Their attack on America was inspired by their objection to the stationing of American troops there. Indeed, their major goal is the Islamisation of Islamic countries. The Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in the 1920's, and of which Al Qaeda is an offspring, originally had an anti-colonial aim. It is never possible to separate religious fundamentally inspired movements, with internationalist overtones, from movements with nationalist aspirations. In my view, the real separation should be made between movements that are totalitarian, be they religious or not, and movements that are essentially democratic.

You don't read these columns nearly attentively enough. Your judgement is way out. Angelique sent your teacher, Tosefta, running for cover the other day. If that's the quality of the Israel third defense team then you apologists have lost out completely.

Dana, I think Cipora is in a class all her own (I am very serious) and one needs to designate a name for her position. Perhaps "pointy cone" will be acceptable? In addition to being a relentless apologist she also has little sense of Earthly reality so the apologetics collapse of their own weight once you look into them. It is not mere intelligence (which the regular cones don't have too much of) but a genuine Alien unclarity. P.S. On the apologetics scale, Danite is a full blooded cone.

Drones are those who go on and on harping on some pet idea, finding every opportunity to push it, no matter what the topic is. Some cones do drone (actually they all do eventually). E.g., Jeff N is a total drone when it comes to "occupation", Cones resort to drone - or harp - when they can't think up anything new beyond a certain point. I think drones are best left to the lawyers' squad. They don't mind a little droning now and then; comes with the territory..(BTW,we do have drones on our side too; but thanks god, far fewer). Drones examples: Hal (aborigines-man), paul harris (1927 mandate), +BEN JABO, FOX (honor and humiliation), 3rd temple nuts, etc. It's only a little sad when seeing those capable of independent thought taken over by Pods, e.g., when circling the wagons is called for. I have 5 examples of turn-Pods; no names (just in case). Luckily these never become cones (heart not really in it). PS glad to see the apology to S. You do share a disdain for Olmert, after all.

You were right, I used 'cones" as short for "cone heads" - a term best reserved for those who find many ways to twist an argument or a fact, till it fits a pre-conceived ideology. To me, these would be the Class A Apologists, who mastered the kind of logic needed to fit a square peg into a round hole, using variants catholic church theologists were so good at wiielding in the middle ages (too bad many jews are only now reaching this stage). Examples Cones: Cipora, Jeff N, victor hardman Examples Cones-in-waiting: danite, margie in TA, TonyL, Jon Feigenbaum Pod people you got right too - they snatch the bodies + minds of their victims who once were thinking - possibly caring - humans. Usually seen reworking platitudes or regurgitating cone-logic. The more motivated, less lazy cones use pods as cheering gallery syncopaths. Good for side swipes on a dull day. Examples Pod people: Gina, Gil, channaS, Angelique, jasmine Murphy, maria, avrum, many more. Not to confuse pods and Drones!

CLK #267 ?They can, with a straight face, differentiate between "local" and "international" terror.? Tell me Cipora, what do you see are the differences between your terrorists groups; the Stern Gang, Haganah, Irgun, etc., and Hamas and Hezbollah? Include Al Qaeda as well. I am very interested to hear what you have to say. In my opinion, Al Qaeda is distinctly apart from the Jewish or Palestinian terrorist groups, or other groups with nationalist aims. They are intent on establishing a new world order with Islam as its only religion. The other two groups are terrorist or freedom fighters; depending on which side, you are on. Myself, not having a side except America?s, I would label them both freedom fighters. Unfortunately, neither side is willing to compromise on their goals. Both would engage in different degrees of ethnic cleansing. Neither has much left anymore, in having more of a moral position than the other. Regrettably, America has lost as well. I recall that members of the Jewish groups going on to high-level positions after they developed into political parties after independence. Maybe they could continue to be a role model for the Palestinians, in becoming, a more reasonable political partner

1. "Tosefta`s vituperations make me vomit." - S I am sorry, S. I believe we were dealing with "the massses are asses", as in the Yiddish proverbs "Oylem Goylem". Perhaps you were not aware, but the masses were still there. You said you were too tall for as ass, so I said you could be a giraffe. Didn't really mean to offend you, just to keep you in the crowd we were discussing. (But in the back of the crowd, in consideration of the shorter asses.) Please forgive me and let us rub noses in peace. 2. "Someone must take on the cones, the pod people and the drones. glad it`s him & not me.." - Dana Dana, your English is much better than mine, especially when I need to resort to non-technical language. I have an idea of what a "drone" is, but what are cones? (I did discover a cone-head in this TB, but I am not sure the meaning is the same.) And what are "pod people"? Are these people who come out of pods, such as in the "body snatchers"? Can you name an example? In any case, help is needed desperately and you are welcome to join in the struggle against the sons of darkness.

lingua (f)- tongue (Latin). I mean that you mount a glib, flashy show as far as words go dana, but logic there is none. I'm not surprised that you don't understand peter's ideas. Is he an idea-logue? (yes, I know that's not what you said). He's drawn up a peace plan with provision for all - hardly a typical right wing ploy. My first and lasting impression of you was superficiality and rigid inflexibility, and odd and restrictive combination. Perhaps you can still give me some reason to change my opinion. Amusing that you don't realise you're an apologist. If anyone except Arab bashers or Israel bashers is interested in this peace plan contact me at margieintelaviv@yahoo.co.uk.

Bradley can interpret reality as he pleases but it was Hamas that put Sharon in his rightful comatosed place - and forced the father of the settlement movement to DISMANTLE settlements. It was Hamas that forced the mighty IDF to take cover behind a 30ft wall and in essence abandon the Greater Israel dream. It was Hamas that destroyed the network of spies in Gaza and pushed out the collaborators. They control all of it now. Maybe people think assassinations are happening less frequent because of Zionist benevolence - but it's harder for the IDF to target Hamas now- although that hasn't stopped the IDF from killing children. Because of these MILITARY VICTORIES, the cowardly terrorist regime in Zion is engaging in wholesale collective punishment against a civilian population. Victory has a price and Palestinians in Gaza are paying for it. That's the reality, Hamas is being punished for delivering what they promised - they liberated Gaza and now Zionists want to hand Hamas a POLITICAL defeat through sanctions where they failed to win a military victory with all their military might. It's pathetic and evil all the way but once again, Zionists will have to learn the hard way, time is not on their side. Go ahead Israel, ignore their recent threats they have something more effective than qassams. What will soon follow is beyond predictable but inevitable.

"never did get a response to my `nice` post from couple days ago" I responded. Don't even remember about nice or not. It was in the morning, saw it come on, and then pft the whole thing went out. Now I remember something - a new French lesson about "Les jeux sont faits - rien ne va plus" something about fate. Now look, I don't remember more, and I don't have to, and you are not going to succeed to make me feel guilty, and I don't feel responsible, and I have not changed at all. If you screw up you pay. Or unscrew it if you can. I told you before, in my "good times": Tosefta's vituperations make me vomit.

Hamas carries out unacceptable terrorist actions. Everybody should consider that IDF killed much more civilian than Hamas. Hamas is a partially and unfortunately a result of Israel unacceptable policy.

While I've been gone for a while - and Thomas Jackson too is absent in action, it seems the apologists have done a good job getting you in line. Where did all that fence sitting business go? Obviously people pretty much give up on those they perceive to be on the "other side", lobbying verbal Quassams now and then hoping for a direct hit or to at least collect a few points. That leaves only fence sitters (called independents around here, in case you forgot) as the object of contention. OK, so it's not a comfortable position, but it can be an honorable one. And popular, if cards are played well. You are right to note that I too have my side, which you knew (waffling not my cup of coffee). Sorry to see you seem to have picked the other one terminal-like. Won't make for much fun and games, alas. never did get a response to my 'nice' post from couple days ago. It's OK; time for nice may have passed now anyways, and Cipora is always watching like a hawk over any flock who dare stray.

Extremely well put. The enjoyment is there, and it flows directly from the hatred and the rage.

As we both realise, Lakshmi has an unfaltering agenda and will use any material to hand, whether suitable or unsuitable, to achieve the desired results.

"Someone must take on the cones, the pod people and the drones. glad it`s him & not me.." (dana) But you enjoy it, like when the Qassam finally hits its objective, or a terrorist somehow goes through all those walls. It's them, not you...

I don't see what your big find here is, Lakshmi. You quoted pretty much what both I and Non Violence quoted. This certainly does not look to me like a statement of "ethnic cleansing", and it is still merely a diary entry, not the Hamas Covenant (or from Der Judenstaat, which you quote but obviously haven't read). What does seem clear to me is that Herzl was far less ignorant of the situation in Palestine in 1895 than you appear to be. First, he knew that with a total population (Muslims, Christians and Jews) of less than one million, that even if only a portion of the six million or so Jews living under extreme oppression in Eastern Europe immigrated, they would soon be in the majority. More important, he realized that a substantial proportion of the Arab peasants in Palestine were landless tenants (many intinerant laborers), and that they would need to be provided for as Jews purchased the lands they sharecropped. This, again, is not what people generally mean by "ethnic cleansing"

"Some people do the part that`s lingual if dana has logic it`s just a single" (margie) single what? as in not bi[lingual]? curious about what you consider logic, but seems you define it as something only APOLOGISTS have. "Some people are masters of reason like montrealan peter" [margie] This must be the joke. Have yet to see peter express a complete thought in a rational manner. Don't know whether it's his language skills that are poor or just reasoning that's faulty. But he is basically a pro-settler ideologue. And hardly the best from that side. "There's Atilla the hun(k) The jury`s out if he's talking junk" (margie) Ah, so we have a soft spot for buttery tongues...what if he is a hunk only with words? the name is nice though. the drunken humor is cute too. "Some have a inclination to bully... Walid, and Tosefta who chides" (margie) Actually Tosefta's chiding is quite duly even if overdue. Someone must take on the cones, the pod people and the drones. glad it's him & not me..

Herzl's Jewish State "formed the basis of political Zionism." (Brenner, Zionism, Markus Wiener, p.41). I provided you with evidence that in this book Herzl clearly stated that individuals from other faiths and nationalities will enjoy full legal equality and protection in the Jewish State. (Herzl, Jewish State, Scopus Publishing, p. 100). YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED THIS. Then I provided you with evidence from the scholar E. Karsh in Middle East Quarterly that in all his published works and private correspondence Herzl NEVER called for ethnic cleansing/transfer. YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED THIS. You continue to focus on ONE entry in a DIARY in which he ALSO calls for (in the SAME ENTRY YOU QUOTE FROM) protecting the property and legal rights of ALL faiths in the Jewish State. Yes, it may be an inconsistent entry; it's a diary, for heaven's sake. YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED THIS. I have nothing futher to say to you for the simple reason that YOU DO NOT HAVE AN OPEN MIND.

Would you please stop. I specifically told you that you LEFT OUT crucial lines of the diary entry, and you completely ignore that fact and repeat the same thing. He means by coercion that it will apply to anyone who tries to DENY the rights of those who do not share the same faith.

This pathetic bunch of loosers' only last resort is to turn against its own people. Gazeans hopefully have learned that there is a difference between voting paper and toilet paper and will do better in the next election. Meanwhile they are paying the price for voting on irresponsible and incompetent hate-mongers. May they learn responsibilty for their acts and that barking like a loud dog against Israel and the Jews only brings them chaos and destruction. Peace talks lower but brings much better results.

"Before the day is out, these TB`s will provide an excellent taste of the kind of insensitivities and lack of empathy..." blah, blah, blah. Unfortunately, Dana, your anti-Semitic rantings are even more predictable.

Debating is definitely an art of which language is a part Some people do the part that's lingual if dana has logic it's just a single - Some people are masters of reason like montrealan peter in and out of season There's Atilla the hun(k) The jury's out if he's talking junk. Some have a inclination to bully these I avoid I'll tell you truly Walid, and Tosefta who chides unduly There are those who just love their own voices About subjects they make no choices That's labrat and Lakshmi and vituperous hannah Carrying that unapologetic Arabist banner

JON FEIGENBAUM # They're worse than animals because they have free will and intellect which animals do not have to make choices that would improve their lives. So saying they are like animals is derogatory to animals that cannot help their nature. As for the EU, which Israel should actually be a part of, it's good to see them beginning to take a more robust approach.

Debating is definitely an art of which language is a part Some people do the part that's lingual with no logic -dana's not single - Some people are masters of reason like montrealan peter in and out of season There's Atilla the hun(k) The jury's out if he's talking junk. Some have a inclination to bully these I avoid I'll tell you truly That's Walid and Tosefta who chides unduly There are those who just love their own voices About subjects they make no choices That's labrat and Lakshmi and crazy hannah Carrying that apologetic Arabist banner.

Hamas is susceptable to the same demands as any other political leadership. They must eventually deliver a better life. If they can't, political support at the grassroots level will falter. Israel can afford to keep up the present impasse indefinitely, if necessary, and has plenty of sophisticated munitions and well trained personnel to easily hold the line. Her civilian population is ensconced in relative comfort with secure jobs and housing. There is no incentive for Israel to budge so much as an inch if Hamas continues with their current policies. Hamas, insists Israel must be destroyed, yet is in no position to achieve their objectives. Besides hurling highly inaccurate rockets, and taking a few captives, they are unable to project force much beyond the boundaries of Gaza. The cost for such meagre gains is exceptionally heavy on the civilian population. If things don't improve, local support in Gaza will simply melt away over time.

provide the exact quote from the Diaries. In your post you say that H. said that we shall treat etc, "with coercion".This might be a typo.

penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries,while denying it any employment in our own country. ..Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Patai.p.88. If this is not ethnic cleansing what is it? Nor can you deny the quote from DJ.

Karsh writes the following: "Nor for this matter is there any allusion to 'transfer' in Herzl's public writings, his private correspondence, his speeches, or his political and diplomatic discussions." (Middle East Quarterly, Spring 2005). Moreover, the one entry from his diary you alluded to is FOLLOWED by the lines: "It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion." (June 12, 1895). He also says of the property owners who don't want to SELL that "we shall simply leave them there." (June 12, 1895). Certainly it is difficult to make sense of this passage as a whole (not unusual in a diarty), but it does not help just to leave out the parts that completely contradict the idea of transfer, as you have done.

Charles, I believe the EU has finally figure out , that direct ais to Hamas is throwing money down a black hole, and only helps to find more violence. While the other players in the region are trying to find a peaceful outcome (the are at least TRYING) , Hamas continues on with their stated goal of destroying Isreal, and on a daily basis trys to provoke Isreal. NOW they are having their own children get the rocket launchers, while their "brave warriors" are out of harms way. Even animals protect their young, WHAT does this make them? This is what Isreal has to deal with.People who throw their OWN off buildings, and put their women and children in harms way. It's not easy fighting barbarians.

Madam It seems obvious to me, and without a doubt others, why you seem to constantly visit this site. Your only reason for being here, is to post hateful things about Jewish people. Your arguments , to be polite, are silly. Anyone with a high school education on this subject knows that there are a number of countries and terrorist groups wanting to dastroy Isreal. There is no real logic for your visits. Do you think you are going to talk the Isrealis into letting their enemies into their country to kill them? Surely even you do not believe tis will happen, or believe the groups and countries wishing Isreal harm will be able to destroy Isreal. To hate Jews is one thing, to come to one of their newspapers tp insult them daily is quite another. With so much hate in your heart, I suggest you seek professional help. I seriously mean this.

What Herzl said in his diary was: "We must expropriate gently, the private property on the estates assigned to us... We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries whilst denying it any employment in our own country.? This is hardly a plan for ethnic cleansing. Futher, have you ever kept a diary or jotted personal notes? It is highly disingenous to make sweeping claims of intent based on a single diary entry. This is particularly true when the person making the claim openly ignores the racist and, possibly, genocidal positions of a group such as Hamas in its definitive and public statement of principles. I find it astounding that someone who appears to be so ignorant of the more comprehensive facts finds it appropriate to constantly pontificate and deliver moralistic lectures.

THE ONLY friends Hamas has are Iran and Syria(Irans' puppet). The world has tired of terrorists, Hamas continues down the SAME PATH, that is getting the Palis a whole lot of nothing. Because of their refusal to denounce the destruction of Isreal, and daily roccket attacks, it is just a mattter of time until they are destroyed.

could constitute part of the wall of defense against Asia,we would serve as an outpost of civilisation against barbarism." DJ,The jewish State,1970 tr.by Harry Zohn,p52.Other major source: Ralph Patai(ed.)The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl(1960).Both the process of the expropriation of the population and their removal must be carried out discreetly,he said.(Patai p.88).

It is also a fact that instead of spending its money donations form its terrorist allies in the gulf-states on fuel oil to circumvent the EU's collective punishment on the downtrodden Gazans / Hamastanis, the Hamastan administration is spending the donated money on the 'fireworks' with which to bombard Israel. Putting a stop to the REU funding and associated humanitarian aid would focus Hamas' minds, I think.

Hamas has amassed a stockpile of "fireworks" Arabs "plan" it. Israelis are well on the road to wiping out the Pals. The Pals are TRYING to stop them, as they should and have the legal right to do! "Sharon's long-standing goal has been to ensure that a country, which he describes as belonging to the Hebrew people since the warlord and psalmist King David was crowned in Hebron 3,500 years ago, remains in Jewish hands.(RUSSIAN) His vision and that of his hard-line Likud predecessors, Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, has been of a GREATER ISRAEL, stretching from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, taking in the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Samaria. The holy city of Jerusalem, home to the first and second Temples, would remain inalienable Israeli territory". "The first public cracks in the Likud vision of a GREATER ISRAEL appeared in early December in an interview with Ehud Olmert, Israel's Deputy Prime Minister, with the popular tabloid Yediot Aharonot". DOES THAT HELP

Bradley, It seems you ought to know better than to re-ject the representatives of the Palestinian people too. While I agree events in Gaza haven't been well covered in the mainstream media--I would be careful how I might read into this. I recall how Bush tried to demonized the enemy combatants following 9/11 and no matter how he trierd to isolate them people wouldn't go along with his efforts and especially to try them in military tribunals. Indeed, I read a piece in the Christian Science Monitor (Feb. 07) about The Myth of Muslim Support for Terrror in America which began to shed some light on this and while 46% of Americans felt terror attacks were "never justified" , 24% felt they were "often or sometimes" and the rest were undecided. So there is a tendency to identify with the enemy on the part of the public and I would watch for how this might backfire on you in the Israeli public for Hamas too. Dutch

Those that subscribe to far left marxist or anarchist ideologies do not care about the fate of individuals. They view history exclusively in terms of ideas and masses of people. They view the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as one between colonisers and colonised, a struggle in the wars of imperialism. They will use any means to smear Israel, regardless of the morality of their methods. Comparing the Palestinians to victims of the Holocaust is part of their propaganda and psychological warfare. These are people who do not deal with complexities, shades of grey, or moral uncertainty. They see themselves as the saviours of the oppressed, and they never experience self doubt. Their psychological make-up is such that they will never change their minds. They are in no way different from religious fanatics, hence their ability to sympathise with a hyper-religious, terror organization like Hamas. They can, with a straight face, differentiate between "local" and "international" terror.

Pick a subject, any subject, add the word 'Jew' (or synonyms, Zionist, Israeli, etc.) and (sob) 'Palestinian'(Hamas will do very well as a substitute here), freely add a few words about Nazis or Resolutions to taste (bad taste of course). Pour in a bit of poison. Allow to stew for a few minutes. Stir vigorously with a cooking spoon. Garnish with 'quotations', sauce with impertinence and insult. Ready to serve. Post, with a sneer, of course.

Ever. No Peace EVER Why don't you read their charter instead of playing dumb? The keep repeating their NO Recognition No Peace Ever in public. It is ALL sacred WAQF the Islamic republic of PAlestine from the river to the sea. "The Final Goal of the Resistance is to Wipe This Entity Off the Face of the Earth" "We are making the preparations for a confrontation. This is not because we need to be prepared for an Israeli act of aggression ? after all, aggression is intrinsic to this entity ? but because the final goal of the resistance is to wipe this entity off the face of the Earth. This goal necessitates the development of the capabilities of the resistance, until this entity is wiped out." To view this clip visit: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1527.htm

Lakshmi reads the titles of books and makes up 'content' at best. Sometimes he makes up titles too. Depends on what kind of day it is. Please don't expect him to quote actual words on actual pages.

Lakshmi reads the titles of books and makes up 'content' at best. Sometimes he makes up titles too. Depends on what kind of day it is. Please don't expect him to quote actual words on actual pages.

Whereas Jeff is always honest and responds directly to posts addressed to him and to their contents you waffle on, borrowing suspect 'facts' from suspect webpages, making personal aspersions about people who are your superiors in intellect, dodging questions and replying to those you do reply to with total non sequiturs (for instance, 'put the shovel down' a childish and stupid slur). As somebody mentioned the other day you are totally discredited on these talkbacks. In fact as a debater you're dead but don't know it and won't lie down. Spare us further burblings please.

says that at the end of days the "Believers" will kill all the Jews. It also needs to fend off the supporters of those genocidal wannabees as does any country where their civillians are targetted daily.

You're boringly ignorant. You make up concepts and write them down in hopes they'll be believed by other ignoramuses. Hamas for instance, has amassed a huge stockpile of armaments: this is scarcely the description of a 'prison camp'. You make up the concept (or borrowed it ignorantly from another liar) of the greater Israel. Here are some actual facts for you in exchange: The Pals and the Arab League have been planned to wipe out Israel for sixty years. They're still trying. They'll go on trying until they give up and when they do give up they'll start growing up.

ChanahS, when I referred to the Jews believing they were the center of the universe, I meant that anything that is said is immediately brought back as something negative about the Jews when more often than not, the Jews have nothing to do with the term mentioned. An example of this yesterday was when I used the word Nazi-tactics and automatically you as well as Jacob went into orbit by thinking I was implying the a second holocaust was about to happen at Israel's hand. Perhaps my use of the word Nazi for dramatic effect was more than what was needed and triggered the adverse reaction in you. When you read elsewhere what I write about Jews, you will see that what you feared most in what I was saying was the farthest thing on my mind. Nevertheless, I still feel that the collective punishment being dished out by Israel is exaggerated.

Under the curcumstances that Israel has had to live with, since its renewal, I think it has to its detriment behaved and acted in a way no other country in similar conditions would have acted. Maybe that is why the conflict is still going on after more than 57 years. For all of you Israel bashers just take a moment to think what any other country would have done if put in the same situation.

1 The restrictions on Gaza are the direct result of terrorism emanating from that territory, including the Qassam rockets, the attacks on crossings, as well as the putch against the unity government. 2 Israel expects Hamas to recognize the same Israel that is recognized by some one hundred and sixty members of the United Nations. 3 Although Hamas received 44% of the popular vote, it has refused to abide by the demands of the international community, i.e., that of the Quartet, to renounce terror and to recognize Israel. To the extent that Hamas expects to be recognized as a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, it must abide by the demands of the international community. 4 The only reason that Israeli casualties have not been significantly higher is due to the diligence of Israel's various defense services, and sheer luck. The firing of Qassams at Israeli civilians is recognized as a war crime, and is without doubt an act of terror.

You could just be plain ignorant. The truth is that Israel held a ceasefire for six months while Gazans have sent missiles daily into Israel for the past two years. Your message deteriorates into total confusion from that high point.

Indra, Have you being sending your donation to the pals in Gaza lately? Guess not,when it comes to real action and digging into your own pocket the answer is ,nay. You can condemn and rant all you want about the west,Us and the "arab traitors" but its time your action match your word and provide for your pals brothers. it's always easier to sit in front of your computer to criticise the west but when it comes for you to sacrifies,I bet you will be the first to ignore your pals brothers. By the way do you know that according to the world bank statictics, half of your country earn less than US2 a day.Isn't it better for you to devout your time to improving the well being of your people i.e if you really care. Hypocrite,you definately are!!

Gabe, thank you for your kind thoughts on shalom-salaam. You were right about how you are more polite than the other guy who left and I'm now finding your words and posts growing richer by the day.

gibraltar , the falkland isles , ulster etc russia will abandon chechyna/ china will abandon tibet ?? turkey will abandon n.cyprus ?

toosofta, you may have noticed that civilised countries have 3 layers of appeal to the court of first instance ! in many cases the supreme court completely overturns the lower courts ? i note you do not argue my submissions but pretend to be omnipotent ! i find most of your posts static rubbish with interpretations of mostly inapplicable law !!

labbo your porblem is that because you know sfa you cherry pick law! the 1995 treaty between jordan and israel confirms for example that the west bank is not occupied!! however on the matter of arabs to jordan it cannot overrride the 1922 mandate and the british creation of transjordan from THAT MANDATE!! the word used is INVOLUNTARY and any transfer would no doubt be voluntary !!

Vic, glad you read about Zionism's early start but you should go on to read that there is no such thing as Muslim anti-Semitism since it's an oxymoron used only by morons. The Jews experienced their best and flourished in Muslim times. Today, you can call some Arabs "Jew-haters" or "Israel-haters" because of the Palestine/Israel episode but you cannot call them Muslim anti-Semites.

Vic, glad you read about Zionism's early start but you should go on to read that there is no such thing as Muslim anti-Semitism since it's an oxymoron used only by morons. The Jews experienced their best and flourished in Muslim times. Today, you can call some Arabs "Jew-haters" or "Israel-haters" because of the Palestine/Israel episode but you cannot call them Muslim anti-Semites.

Vic, glad you read about Zionism's early start but you should go on to read that there is no such thing as Muslim anti-Semitism since it's an oxymoron used only by morons. The Jews experienced their best and flourished in Muslim times. Today, you can call some Arabs "Jew-haters" or "Israel-haters" because of the Palestine/Israel episode but you cannot call them Muslim anti-Semites.

* BEN JABO, The qassam missile that was launched at the kindergarten could not be aimed so what you said about Palestinians aiming their missile there was wrong. These things cannot be guided and often fall on the Palestinians themselves.

Dear Talkback participants, You may notice that we are being served today by Slowman, the notoriously and exceedingly slow censor. He comes in every few hours, allows a few posts to be published, then disappears again. The rest of the posts languish in limbo until, perhaps, they are allowed to see the light of day towards the end of Slowman's shift. (He does want to keep his job, after all.) Who can possibly benefit from this state of affairs? Slowman himself ends up doing the work, although so many hours after the fact that nobody reads those late posts any more. The end result of the Slowman system is to choke the Haaretz Talkback to death. And the beneficiary is the Jerusalem Post naturally, the Haaretz competitor. My thesis: SLOWMAN IS A PLANT OF JP IN HAARETZ. Please share with us your thoughts on the matter, and what to do about it. Thanks.

Ronnie Wolman, since you don't like hockey, you can always consider the Ice Capades.

Exactly when and how did Israel refuse to "allow the Plaestinians to have their own electricity supply"? Israel may have witheld tax money collected on behalf of the PA. However it is not "Israel" that is complaining about not being paid. It is a privately held energy company.

I am sorry, Cipora, that I addressed you indirectly, but it was in the context of responding to your responder. I really appreciate your point of view. You do have to take care of your own. After all, אם אין אני לי מי לי .But Hilel's saying has also another part. As I told you before, my attitude towards the Palestinians is not altruistic; it has to do with our security. We need to defend ourselves with one hand and stretch out the other one, until it will be accepted, because Israel is destined to live in this area hopefully forever. A suffering neighbor is not a good neighbor. I also think that human nature of wanting to live well will eventually overcome all fundamentalist propaganda, but in the meantime.... Israel has two choices: eternal war or tireless attempts for reconcilliation. There are more voices that respond to the outstretched hand every day. We must keep trying and trying.

Unfortunately, Martians with their constant warring did not have the opportunity to develop sharp brains. An Earthling will have no problem with what I advised the Gazans. The question is: If they use such means as I suggest, would it reach the Israelis or not? I take it that they will. Of course, you do not understand how, but then you are an Alien who is a bit challenged in the ways of us Earthlings.

Where exactly does Herzl call for "land grab and the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population" in Der Judenstaat?

Jeff wrote---13. "Although all occupations eventually come to an end some of them can last longer than some empires." Jeff, a few reasons why Isralel,s Occupation will not last another 10 years. 1, World Wide Web. 2, Camera Cell Phones 3, Boycotts. 4, Resolution 0377?????. What shift are you on this week Jeff. Regards

Jeff I have come to the conclusion that you are on Aipac,s payroll, or someones. What else could account for your continuous peddling of lies and deceipt vis a vis " Collective Punishment". Are you insulting the average intelligent poster with your assertion that the Israeli High Court of Justice is a higher authority than the Un and Geneva convention. In any event Israel; has ended it,s "policy" of house demolitions, as it caused the oposite effect of "Deterence", as any idiot would have been able to forsee, except perhaps the average "blockhead" in the Israeli Government or it,s supporters. Put the shovel down Jeff and get a real job where you can hold your head up.

VERY well written and true - they've gotten themselves in checkmate. Hamas/miscreants are good at destroying, but they don't know how to build or support anything. Maybe Allah is trying to make a point with these people...

Jeff you are at it again, "Also, the Israeli High Court has ruled several times that the destruction of the homes of suicide bombers is not "punishment", but rather, "deterrence". The devil is in the details here. What is the definition of "punishment"?" Try this--No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. Pillage is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited. Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, Geneva, 12 August 1949, Part III : Status and treatment of protected persons, Section I : Provisions common to the territories of the parties to the conflict and to occupied territories, Article 33 By the way I don,t think the UN or the Geneva conventions can be "trumped" by IHCJ.

I am always amused by the claim that Israel is so defencive about its territory and people DESPITE the Shoah. Whereas in fact it would be more accurate to say that it has in the past acted in the defensive way that it has BECAUSE OF the Shoah. Just read the biographies of the early PMs. Jabotinski - the founder of Zionism - would be rolling in his grave if he were aware of the inept and dangerous policies of the current government. The problem is that Israelis have forgotten the Shoah, and, further, have failed to take Muslim anti-Semitism seriously.

Death and Destruction, Democratically Elected and Now Delivered. Autonomy is what they wanted, this is what they choose to do with it. Israel need do nothing, must do nothing, but fortify the wall. Keep the disease of Gaza in Gaza, lest is spread and poison us all.

Morality, or lack thereof, can come in any size package. In the case of drug dealers, its handing over bags of cocaine to kids to transport or sell. In the case of Islamic Jihad, its letting the kids retreive the rocket launchers. The IDF has a responsibility to protect those kids sitting in the kindergarten classrooms from the Qassams, despite your belief that the five year olds are legitimate targets (so much for cilivian/combatant split for you). Just as the Palestinians are wrong for firing at civilian targets (despite your claim, I know of no national army that drafts children just out of day care) they are wrong for using children in their military operations.

Maybe you could "enlighten" me. Israel holds 1.5 million people in the prison camp called Gaza, is THIS the "TERROR" which you think the World is waking up to? No? Hamas refuses to "legitimise" the State of Israel. Which Israel are you talking about, the current State of Israel which claims the occupied territories as Israel? The Israel of pre-1967? The Israel of the FUTURE, Greater Israel? Post the "borders" of this State which Hamas refuses to recognise, would you? Hamas was "democratically" ELECTED, surely "Democratic Israel" would be only too happy to see ANOTHER democratic Government in the ME? OR does Israel only want the "right" people elected, the people who are "approved" by Israel? You might like to tell me how many Israelis have been killed by Palestinians, in the last two years, as opposed to the number of Palestinians killed by the IDF? Maybe the answer will give you a clue as to who is the "terrorist" entity. You are right, the world IS sick of terror!

Howdy Tosefta; Although Yonatan's statement was over the top, there is some doubt about what constitutes "collective punishment". From what I understand "collective punishment" means the punishment of persons who were not involved in or who were innocent of a criminal act or an act of war and is prohibited by the Fourth Geneva Convention. The problem is what is considered to be "punishment"? Obviously, summary executions, incarcerations, torture, beatings, and the denial of the rights of protected persons would be unwarranted punishment, but then we enter into a grey area. For example, it is obvious that the UN does not consider the imposition of economic sanctions on a state to be "collective punishment" provided that humanitarian supplies are not blocked. Also, the Israeli High Court has ruled several times that the destruction of the homes of suicide bombers is not "punishment", but rather, "deterrence". The devil is in the details here. What is the definition of "punishment"?

You wrote that Herzl's Der Judenstaat "called for land grab and the cleansing of the indigenous population." Now, I have a copy of Herzl's Der Judenstaat (English translation) in front of me. I find the following in it: "And if it should occur that men of other creeds and different nationalities come to live amongst us, we should accord them honorable protection and equality before the law. (Scopus Publishing, 1948, p. 100). I don't, however, see anything in the book about a land grab or cleansing of the indigenous population, but I'm not saying it is not in here; perhaps I missed it. Could you direct me to where Herzl, in The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), calls for cleansing of the indigenous population or land grab? Please give me the edition, chapter, and page number where you find it.

This state of confusion described is quite deliberate as you well know, both descriptions fit the case and neither is complimentary.

the hypocrite!

Howdy Palestinian Prince; 11. Peace between Israel and the Palestinians does not imply that U.S. foreign aid to our allies in the region will cease. Israel will continue to receive between $2.5 and $3 billion/yr. for the next ten years (all of it military and none of it economic aid), Egypt about three-quarters of that, and Jordan and various Gulf states lesser amounts. 12. Israel doesn't need a local conflict to support her arms industry because a lot of other countries around the world prefer to purchase Israeli weapons systems because of their high quality. 13. Although all occupations eventually come to an end some of them can last longer than some empires. For example, the Chinese occupied Annam (North Vietnam) for over a 1000 years between 111 B.C. and 906 A.D. which spanned several Chinese dynasties and which lasted longer than the Roman Empire. I have no doubt that the Israeli-occupied portions of the Palestinian Territories will eventually come to an end after borders

To negotiate core issues for pal state becomes tougher for Abbas-Fayyad moreover when west bank pal terror faces Sharon's separation wall , and that the Mecca deal is dead , What now ! Saudia plan and 2 states solution will be a farce at the face of next washington summit , Mecca deal is dead and Sharon's separation wall still stand tall against west bank pal terror , Obey to counter terrorism policies , move no road blocks , release no terrorists , Stop being a greedy isracard chaser and add more more road blocks against Peres's peace thru economy , make arabs states appears to pals as their future , and move to end arabs occupation , A united Al-Quds and at Bayt al-Maqdis under the sovereignty of the Yahud State of Israel ,

That was a one-time unfortunate incident...It was never repeated...All the survivors were allocated to various units of the IDF, and leaved peacefully with each other forever after... Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Shia & Sunni have been whaling away at each other for the past 1400 years... Now it's Fatah & Hamas, fighting over the spoils, trying to see who can steal more from their public...Each is doing his to copy Arafat's thievery to the best of their ability... What a lovely bunch of coconuts!!!!

Gazan's elected Hamas, now they're stuck with them... There's no possible way to separate the terrorists of Hamas from the general population... Hamas, as do other terror organizations prefer to launch their attacks and missiles from the midst of the populace, in the false belief it makes them immune to retaliation... On the other hand, Hamas prefers to target Israeli civil environments...Just yesterday it was a kindergarten...We were fortunate there were no children present... Aside from that, Hamas uses it's own children as rocket launcher retrievers, homicide bombers and human shields... During the Holocaust, Jews didn't have the capability of launching rockets or any missiles of any type...Factually, the only had a very few small arms, unlike Hamas which has large stockpiles of all types of armnaments and doesn't hesitate to use them...

Bill you are raving. Israel did not exist six decades ago- it may still destroy itself in the next decade or so. Hamas has observed an unilateral ceasefire but Israel continues to bomb Gaza and starve Gazans. Hamas has agreed to an indefinite ceasefire and the Arab League has offered recognition of Israel. Anyone not bent on total colonisation of Palestine would have seized the opportunity to make peace. If the Gazans perish, it will Israel's verion of Austwiz. Things have a way of turning around just when hubris rules. Russia is emerging on the scene again and the US-Israel duo will have to fight a war on many fronts - Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and still try to contain Russia. Meanwhile, there is the mounting US foreign debt....

You really lie so damningly. August 14th, protestors beaten by Hamas with rifle butts, private house parties invaded and people arrested by Hamas security, chairman of the Gaza power plant arrested. Such incredible lies you tell.

Dear Otto, If you want to say something to me, please address the post to me. Yes, I do care about Israel. Unfortunately, Israel and Gaza are at war. I wish I could put an end to this war, and I wish the Hamas government cared about the people of Gaza as much as I care about the people of Israel. This is the only conflict I know of in history where one of the sides is expected to have sympathy for the other side, but without reciprocation. Although I consider myself to be a humane person, I have no pretentions to be a holier than thou person. I leave that role to those who are much higher minded than I am.

Israel has a right to deal with things based on the way they are being treated.We can talk about the chicken and egg of it but thats a fact. Israel does not want to hurt the Palestinians but it is their leaders who send the children out to fight their fight while those leaders hide. Hizbullah hides behind the children and so does Hamas. Israel would much prefer to make a deal but can they with those ovowed to kill it?

"PA is worst than Hamas"18-8-07 gil. Thats what you said the other day gil,now they're more corrupt than Fatah. Make your mind up gil or are your thoughts guided by the articles you read hear,this article has Hamas on their knees,then you have another article that wants Abbas to bribe the West Bankers in the hope to defeat Hamas in two years. Who's corrupt?look no further than Israel and America's arsewipe ..Abbas.

The Jews spoke english, but they didnt group with the english, the english tried to keep us out of their society for as long as possible.Speaking english didnt make one English(thankG-d) secondly being against separation is also not being with the english, most Quebecois were against as as were almost immigrants to quebec.It would then have made Jews as much italian or greek for that matter.Also many quebecois were not interested in knowing others as well.In quebec communities tend to live in their own worlds.And by the way, you did say I couldnt understand quebecs history or present because I was a Jew.Thats what you said.I can only imagine if I said, you cant because you are Lebanese immigrant OH MY MY!!!! I can imagine the reaction!!!!!

Benezra, perhaps this may be too complicated for you but let,s try it in any event. "Past crimes do not present crimes negate". Regards

I asked if I cannot according to you understand Quebec history and its present because I am a Jew, then how is it a Lebanese can???My parents were born in quebec, I am and have lived most of my life here.I speak french and quebecois fluently, I work with quebecois on a daily basis and read Canadian history for my pleasure.Who are you???.As for Quebec history I see that when proved wrong ( as I have done on numerous occasions) your reaction is racist.Which goes to prove that all the talk of humn rights you arabs love to wrap yourself in, is simply a tool to for your gain, thats all it is.Anyway you will need to study more about Quebec so I suggest "Tirgah al madrasse"(return to school)

Howdy Palestinian Prince; 4. The Palestinians may not have much money, but they sure don't have much difficulty with spending almost all of it on weapons and corrupt politicians instead of on civic improvements. 5. Yeah, I noticed how Palestinian pride and love-of-nation resulted in the disintegration of the Palestinian Territories into Hamastan and Fatahland. So much for Palestinian unity. 6. Pride and 75 cents will get you a cup of coffee. You can't eat pride. Israel doesn't want the Palestinians as servants; she just doesn't want anything to do with them at all. (Israel can get cheap labor from elsewhere.) 7. There is no Israeli occupation in the Gaza Strip nor in Areas A & B in the West Bank. Some of Areas C in the West Bank are occupied, but depends on where the border winds up being.

P.S. The expression is "sof pasuk". (Pasuk means `verse`, and `sof pasuk` is the trope that appears at the end of the verse. My dear Tosesta, Angelique was correct in calling you soft `pisook`. I bet you could not goodge this one up. Without going into much details or skipping direct translation, in adult world it is the unpleasant term designated for the person who is too visibly raw, unskilled, childish, amaturish & boring to skillfuly challenge and convince intelligent world in his fantasies or delusions.

I guess your moderate and civil Arabs on that SS site are getting to be doves or is it vultures. They smell blood or their facade is starting to wear thin.

My thoughts are aqbsolutely the same. Jordan, Syria et al should absolutely give citizenship to the Pals. I will never understand letting people live in a perpetual state as refugees. I think it really hit me when I read an article about Pals in Jordan. A huge perentage do not want to go to Palestine they have lives and homes and businesses in Jordan. They said they want to be Jordanians. These are the people who should not be left in limbo. I read Lebanon is not only getting its share of Saudis, but Iraqis as well. I'm not particularly bashful when I think I am right about an issue, but I do believe in not embarrassing myself if I can help it. My mom raised her daughters to be ladies. (chuckle)

israel left Gaza in 2005 but left it an open air prison,controlling every aspect of Gazan life,air,port,land,entry and exit points.The Quassams are a response to israel's daily rampages in the West Bank,whether it is the shooting of unarmed teenagers,the bull dozing of homes,the driving out of the bedouin from their land, damaging the Palestinian farmers crops,allowing the settlers to engage in the most despicable behaviour towards the Palestinians with daily harassment and abuse,the burning of their crops,even torching their mosques.Sorry,but your attempt to whitewash the Occupation will not work.Too much is known now.

I never inferred that Jews were the center of the universe - in fact I wish the universe would stop shining a spotlight on us and move on. There are far worse problems than the Palestinian issue and far more problematic countries than Israel. It is the supporters of Palestinian terrorists who come up with statements like Israel is the "cruelest" etc in the world. It is the Palestinians who are perpetually demading world attention.

Three pillars of the most Anti Israel SS site bar none and all courtesy of Margie in the UK. Walid the Hizbulla sympathizer and most likely member wants to continue with that famous thread "Zionists collaborated with Nazis" and "nasrallah is misunderstood as he is a patriot" He is the current Chief at SS together with Bracha.I am constantly reminded that he is a moderate. Dana is the official idiot but neverltheless is Walid favourite floater of anti Jewish and anti Israeli posting that rival those of "DER Sturmer" Bracha is the official "Israeli Arabist" that believes in a One State Solution instead of Israel and did a masterful job yesterday of trying to sell Jerusalem and YESHA for less than a piatre. These are Margies moderates and peter of Montreal is just simply a Spineless Jelly Fish without a backbone for not standing up to these beacons of Israeliness and for outright defending Margie. Both Margie and peter are picking their fights: the other three already did--ISRAEL

Tosefta, apologise fro lumoing you with this "entity". From the Jordan Treaty. Doubt if you will read it hardman, but for the record here it is. Note the part re "consigned to the bin of history the notion of "jordan is Palestine". In their treaty, Jordan and Israel confirm a strategic understanding to recognize their shared opposition to Palestinian nationalist irredentism, which underpined their tacit relationship for decades, until it was tested in succession by a revival of Revisionist ideology in Israel, Jordan's shift toward Iraq in the 1980s, and the 1993 PLO-Israel agreement. In so doing, they consigned to history the "Jordan is Palestine" thesis that argued for settling the Palestinian question by creating a Palestinian homeland on the East Bank of the Jordan River. Two clauses in the treaty are critical in this regard. First, the preamble contains language committing each party to "ensure lasting security for both their States," a remarkable statement that suggests each party not only respects the other's sovereignty but has an interest in maintaining the other's security. Secondly, and more important, a paragraph in article 2, under the heading "general principles," states that "involuntary movement of persons in such a way as to adversely prejudice the security of either Party should not be permitted." (Neither of these clauses is found in the Egypt-Israel treaty.) That principle compels Israel to foreswear the concept of a Palestinian "transfer" to Jordan, a possibility that aroused real Jordanian fears in the 1980s. Turned around, it also commits Jordan not to resolve its longstanding refugee problem by expelling Palestinian refugee camp dwellers to the West Bank. These two treaty statements lay to rest decades of historical fears; and the warm welcome King Husayn accorded Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu in Amman in December symbolized the demise of those concerns.

I take no pleasure in seeing the people of Gaza suffering -both because hate to see any human beng suffering and because I believe that this region has all th epotential to go fforward and flourish in peace to the benefit of all. Seeing Palestinian suffering also does nothing to alleviate the personal and collective pain I feel as a Jew and the knowledge of our recent history in the 20th century as it is unconnected. Revenge and vengeance hasnever been a Jewish schtick and for that I am thankful. Had our psyche been focussed on revenge we would have landed up lile the Palestinians and not produced the great people and achievements for the past 60years. So please do not transfer the kind of emotions you feel onto others - whether collectively or individually.

The problem is that muhammed introduced the worship of one of the 365 pagan deities , one for each day worshipped by the desert people in those days at the kabba stone , and commanded the worship of the desert moon god every day of the year . This is worshipping the creation not the creator - an abomination to the G-D of the universe and His WORD and separation from Him while they continue . As long as islam obey's muhammed's command to curse and kill the Jewish people they will receive a curse from G-D and His WORD . Genesis 12 : 1-3 G-D covenants that He will Bless those who Bless Israel and the Jewish people and Curse those who curse them .

as normally happens during attacks from the enemy.In this case the ethnic cleansing was a deliberate act by the zionist leadership,not an act of war.There are many accounts on this topic.I suggest you read up on them.You can start with Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.He is among the new school of historians.Benny Morris from the same school believes it was the result of war,by israel,not deliberate.This has been challenged by Norman Finkelstein in his Image & Reality in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. See chapter 3.Alan Dershowitz has written A Case for Israel(you will like this book!).He is a well known zionist.

Avrum, you are putting words into my mouth. I never said that the plight of the Palestinians was solely the fault of the Israelis. If you were to read my comments on shalom-salaam.net you would see that more often than not, I'm blaming the Arabs for having dragged this situation for so long. The thing I'm blaming Israel for today is the collective punishment it is inflicting on the civilian population. But like the other Jews, you don't see any Palestinian civilian population because you have been conditioned to think that all Palestinians are Hamas Jew-hating potential assassins of Israelis. It's too bad because your mind is not programmed to see a peaceful situation.

Moshe, the majority of the Americans voted for Bush but the same majority is not in agreement with what Bush is doing so we can't be blaming all the Americans for the mistakes of their leader. Same logic for the Palestinians. The people were fed up with the corrupt Fateh people, Israel had decided it had no partner to discuss peace and had actually destroyed the Palestinian Authority and Hamas promised them the moon so they won. I'm sure not every Palestinian that voted for Hamas had the destruction of Israel on his mind; this is what your government is spoon feeding you, that all Palestinians are potential assassins.

You state that Herzl, in Der Judenstaat, "called for land grab and the cleansing of the indigenous population." Please provide the page number and edition of the text in which he calls for land grab and the cleansing of the population.

when a child has been abused for so long by a parent it gets up one day and does something terrible.True,it was a bad action,but who can blame the child? To your points:Hamas had moderated since their election in 2006.And this year they attended the Mecca Summit and agreed to respect past agreements,they formed the Unity Government.They were rewarded by the Dahlan thugs who were planning a bloody coup to overthrow the legitimately elected govt.(with the aid of u.s.-israel cabal).Hamas pre empted that,hence the Gaza takeover.From day one the cabal and abbas wanted to unseat Hamas.It is naive of you to think that your subjective wishes for a just settlement are shared by the israeli leadership or the settlers or many israelis who have become comfortable with the status quo.The world community does not see any signs of peace making from israel.All we see are stalling and talk,further talk,and further talk.So it will be,until Hamas loses its patience.

In my versified version while I wrote for him to be more gracious and avert from his nasty indulgence that will cause him precariousness. He not only did not heed my warning,he went even further without a single thought of what he so brutally was refering! Glad you came to the rescue,he is shameless and has no heart,he indulges in his vanity by desecrating the Jewish dead.Insinuations by him is not new,and continuous mercilesly without a single thought! What can anyone say about this behaviour,other that he operates with glee in his endeavour Wonder if he derives some pleasure,by the unwarranted cynical outburst... To what can we ascribe this abberation,I am dumbfounded without exaggeration. Good and worthy post Thank you. p/s I had no intention to continue,but when I sow yours I was duty bound to congratulate you.

Israel was admitted as a state and to memebership in the U.N. and since 1949 it is the business of the United Nations.The last time I looked Indonesia is a member of the United Nations!

If the kindergarten in Sderot had been in session, would they still be less innocent, if dead, then Pal children? 5 year olds are not guilty of anything, except maybe lying to stay out of trouble. I do a lot of community service with kids, and I find they are all the same regardless of nationality. They basically want someone to just like them.

In your posting you blame Israel for the plight of the Palestinians. Sorry you are wrong. Palestinians and their leaders are to blame for their plight. You are living in Beirut, Lebanon. I do not care or does it matter if you are Christian, Moslem, or atheist. From what I know from speaking to my Lebanese Canadian colleagues is that Lebanon is a fractured teetering country living on the edge of revolt and civil war. And why ? Because of Israel ?? Same for you and for the Pals

"If the body regulated by the Charter doesn`t accept the changes then the changes don`t exist." - Angelique I don't know which official body you are talking about. The official bodies say the Charter was changed, and from all the evidence it WAS change. Had it been totally plain, you would not have had a leg to stand on. Since there is some intentional fog around, you can try to DENY. Just think about it; but I have reached the boney core of your brain, and I can't help you any more. P.S. The expression is "sof pasuk". (Pasuk means 'verse', and 'sof pasuk' is the trope that appears at the end of the verse.

It does not make sense since as you well know the majority of the Palestinians voted for the Hamas party. Therefore they are the same people.

easily even by children in the smallest of packets.But rocket launchers! The most bizarre excuse for a crime.Lame,pathetic. Israel's daily crimes are being met by quassams.Further,there is no innocent civilian in israel.All are required to serve 3 years in the army(women and men).Therefore,they are legitimate targets.And what they do in their years of service is best told by the young people themselves.See their first hand account in 'Breaking the Silence:What Soldiers Do in the Occupied Territories' by Colin Hinshelwood,Asia Times,Aug.16,2007(reprinted in http://imeu.net The material is from the organisation and writings of the soldiers who founded Breaking the Silence.

Danite, sorry I hurt your feelings about the the Quebec culture thing.

You wrote---"But if no one pays for that electricity what should Israel do. Maybe you or some of your friends would like to pay the bill?" 1, Israel refused to allow the Plaestinians to have their own electricity supply. 2, Israel is and has witheld hundreds of millions of dollars of Palestinian Taxes. It is just a tad disingenuous for to complain about not being paid. Regards

holocaust,in the 19th century with people like Moses Hess,but it was Theodor Herzl who gave it its fullest(and most evil expression) in Der Judenstaat(1896) which called for land grab and the cleansing of the indigenous population.The shameful process of the expropriation of the Palestinian peasantry are well documented.The statements of the early zionist leadership are also on record.What happened after WWII is that jews around the world received the sympathy of the world community.Since then that capital has run dry.The second card that is played is anti semitism.This too is longer good currency.People over the world know israel's treatment of the Palestinians.And that it has no justification.The brutality of the Occupation is disproportionate unless you want to argue that jews have become demented after the holocaust experience.There may be some truth to that,since there is no other explanation for the continued crimes of the Occupation.And it has been 40 years plus!

There isn't a single statement you make here that makes sense. Don't worry, though. Nobody expects sense from a Russian with regards to law. Instead of Law and Order you understand what Order means. OK, so you can't be a lawyer, but you can still be in computers. They make good money too.

Lynn, the Palestinians living in Lebanon's camps are in a horrible shape. This is why I'm for naturalizing the refugees to correct this mistake that has gone on for too long now. As to the Al Islam people, you don't need to be bashful about them because they are not Palestinians but mostly Saudis and that should ring a bell or two.

Why the dubious wares?

The entire population of the Warsaw Ghetto, made up of the Jews of Warsaw and of surrounding areas, were annhilated by Nazi troops. This included every child, including the orphanage, which was deported in one action to its death in the crematoria. Those who compare the annihilation of Jews in the Holocaust to Gaza deserve no respect and their voices will not be listened to.

Danite, you asked a couple of questions. First I did not say you couldn't comprehend Quebec's realities because you didn't have the necessary intellect but because Jews, like all other non-Catholic minorities were grouped with the English and got to know the English more than the French. When the problems of separation started, 99% of the Jews sided with the English, as I did and for this, their knowledge of French culture was almost nil. Perhaps you were an exception. I never pretended to know about Israel other than what I read about it and from what I learn from our esteemed Israeli members of the shalom-salaam forum. What I'm writing today about the Gaza problems is from my reading about it. I don't think I know any more than 1% about Israel and I'm learning every day. And no, Arabs are not smarter than other people.

HAMAS holds the choice of the Gazans in its hands. Israel pulled its settlers out two years ago. It removed its army. Hell, it removed the bodies from the graves. Since then, HAMAS, which pledges itself to Israel's destruction, has rained down a series of rocket attacks. The group is now supported by Iran, which also pledges a world free of Israel. In the past week, HAMAS has recorded two hits on elementary schools in Sderot. HAMAS has chosen this path of attacks. It can choose to stop. It can choose to follow a path of war against Israel, it can choose to sit down with Israel to find a non-violent means to an independent Palestinian state. But HAMAS and the Palestnians in Gaza don't get to have it both ways. If they want a war, then that's what they're going to get. If they want peace, they know how to get that as well. But Israel's pullout from Gaza and subsequent actions are hardly Nazi-like.

I wish you would be less simplistic. You neglect the grey areas.Just as the Bible requires interpretation to be understood, so does the Quran. The Quran is a compilation of various purported visions of Muhammad, not in any specific order, and often contradicting each other. There is some very positive stuff about Christians and Jews in the Quran and there is some deplorable stuff. It's all up to the commentator: you can make jihad into a war or into self-searching; you can learn respect towards the People of the Book (as did the Umayyad rulers in the Middle East and in Spain), or you can persecute them (a la Taliban or the Wahabis). It's not about the Quran; it's about an inferiority complex of a lot of Muslim nations, as they fare economically the worst of all religions. It's hard for the Palestinians to view an economically booming Israel from where they are. I don't know whom to blame, probably their leadership, but not the Quran.

If you are going to raise the issue of the Holocaust that the Jews experienced, and then mention how Israel is using "Nazi-like tactics", then there is a definitive link between your statements, whether you appreciate it or not. This was from your original post "Shame on Israel for having such a short memory and for dragging out the memory of the holocaust only for political gains and not to avoid having it repeated. Those that condone what is happening to Gaza`s civilian population under one justification or other are not better than the Nazis. Your link is there in those words about Israel not avoiding another Holocaust.

Certainly, it is harder to be a revolutionary, if you have an infrastructure to defend. I think you have to regard Hamas, though it is Sunni, as an organization similar to Hizbullah. You can expect similar responses to attacks. There will be rocket attacks, and the use of ground troops in Gaza would bring a similar response as Hizbullah in South Lebanon. You also have an infrastructure to defend, and you had better do something about the schools in Sderot.

Gil, thank you for your clear explanation; it was one of the few times I enjoyed reading something coming out of Israel and your point is well taken but my ongoing discussions here that the Israelis and other Jews are not getting or don't want to get is that I am not talking about Hamas as I have no use for them so I can't be defending them. It is for actions such as you described that I dislike these people. The horrors of Gaza I'm talking about are not limited to the current stoppage of electricity but to a multitude of punitive measures that are hurting the civilian population more than the Hamas people in their comfortable homes. In addition, they are throwing the Palestinians even further into the arms of the Hamas militants which is making peace that much further away. The whole argument got turned into holocaust discussions and Nazi actions. Israel is using abusive measures on Gaza and they should be relaxed to a point. The whole million Palestinians are not all shooting qassams

You are also being one-sided, Nathalie. Cipora Kohn cares about Israel and less about the suffering of the Gazans. You care about the suffering of the Palestinians, but not about the security of Israel. If there is going to be future for Israelis and Palestinians, the wellbeing of both is important, because there will not be peace between a winner and a loser. It has to be a win win situation. Bradley is right, Hammas might be doomed. So what's the solution? Somebody will have to help the Palestinians to raise their standard of living to become more prosperous, in order to live side by side with an economically booming Israel. It's up to the stronger to reach out to the weaker. Yet the Israelis treat the Arabs with hubris,and sometimes with disregard for their rights, while the Palestinians view the Israelis with contempt. This must change. I know that Cipora will call me naive, but I believe that ultimately everybody wants good life.

Pride is all very well but your children do the suffering. You're imposing your choices on them

Dear Gazans, You live desperate lives. You are trying to reach Israeli hearts and get included in the peace process so the pressure on you is relieved. You are correct in trying to reach the Israeli population, but this is a very difficult job. The Israelis` hearts have been hardened in the recent conflict and will not show much empathy to you and your situation. You need to be more creative. Here is my suggestion. Pretend to be in a situation familiar to Israelis. You might reach them this way. How about pretending that the prison of Gaza is actually the Warsaw ghetto? Why not require every resident to wear a yellow Star of David? And let your radio station be called Radio Free Warsaw. Instead of a Qassam missile better call it The Anilevitch. Everybody in Israel will then associate it with heroic resistance. Instead of what you call "militants" better call them "Partisans". And change the names of your resistance movements. No more Iz a-Din el-Qassam Brigades, better call them them the Antek Zukerman Brigades. And so on. I hope you get the idea. Beware that we Jews are steeped in talmudic legalistic techniques, and will be able to find distinctions between you and our Warsaw heroes. I can help you with that, but learn to adapt quickly. If a distinction is found, you should quickly innovate some mode of behavior that will blur the difference. Good luck; we need it no less than you do.

you apparently are unasble to sort out the legal state of affairs in gaza ?? ther are no palestinian people or state gaza can only be refgaraded as self governing province of israel and accordingly the geneva convention does not and cannot apply ! you apparently think that negotiations between olmert and abbas are not indicative of israels sovereign role in all territory of the 1922 mandate. this role has been accepted by egypt and jordan in peace treaties . this phony game of pretence has gone on too long and the myopic disease is catching especially to haaretz

activities, in conjunction with other factions, and which also counter the PA and all the agreements which the PA signed with Israel. We all thought that with their inclusion into politics in 2006, that they would definitively moderate permitting progress. But no, they knew better than Pres. Abbas and undermined PA policy. I believe in inclusion, especially of people who are disenfranchised in all aspects of their existence, but to negotiate with violence is not amicable for both people. Another thing, it's within Israel's interest that the Palestinians attain a substantial settlement with a contiguity of land and economically viable for its people.

Danite, what took you so long to get here? Do you want to continue on Quebec history? The rest of your gang is here except for Gabe.

Walid for once it is not Israel that sanctioned the Gazans but the EU And for a good reason! Hamas moved money from EU Funds specified for electricity, to anything but electricity. That is an act that should be punished, this is not gun money, this is not profit money and it is not money that belongs to Hamas, and Hamas as the representative of the Palestinian people in Gaza, should have treated it as such! Sorry for the suffering of the Palestinian people in Gaza that today live without electricity, but if the ones how are running the show (Hamas) won?t understand what is right or wrong, they will continue to manipulate money that is coming in to Gaza and WB for purposes that the money wasn?t intended for! The population has a lot of power that they don?t use, and it is time they tell Hamas go away for your way is wrong; it has been done before in Lebanon when the population pressured Arafat in to leave Lebanon, and it has to happen in Gaza too, for their sake only!

Israel just doesn't learn. The Palestinians in Gaza have lived a life of poverty for decades now. A couple more years is not going to phase them. Israel wants the Palestinians to submit. Trust me, the Palestinians don't have too much such as money, resources, weapons, etc. However, the one thing they have more than any people is a love of their nation and pride. Israel no matter how strong it is will never get the Palestinians to swallow their pride and become Israel's servant. It's simple, end the occupation, that also means, having no control on Palestinian borders. The truce was offered, even Hamas adhered to the hudna while Israel was still assasinating their leaders. Israel knows a day of peace means that the welfare policy of receiving U.S. aid will end. Israel needs conflict to continue the weapon manufacturing enterprise. All occupations are destroyed eventually, and Israel's will be too in due time.

Ma??? Are you not going to post my response to Walid?? I only repeated what he said to me the other day.Nu? Toda

Debating is definitely an art, An art I can never impart. I ain?t a debater truth to tell, Why I leave it to Tosefta as well, Also to Cipora Julianna Kohn Has the gist of stories known. Sorry chums you are all dear, So,don?t disregard me!hear? Arguing points daily crucial are, Problems encountered from afar. Gets boring after repeating it here. Life gets boring after awhile still. Charges are all?tit for tat? One side says?yea?other?nay? Life gets tedious don?t they say? Reading articles wagers they see, Sorry Bradley no offence to thee. Thinking well of you, assuredly. It is just my lack of ability, To debate comprehensively. I read a few before I composed, Never varies in all it is proposed. You argue among yourselves, Luck to you for perseverences. Fight, fight, the good battle! Needing to shake that ?rattle? It must sound from top of roof, Deserves it all for its good proof. Write often, oh please do, And be constant all of you. You Tosefta be more gracious, Nasty indulgence is precarious.

Excuse me, excuse me, Mr.Laksmi! You are gravely mistaken. The "Palestinians" (or, the Arabs who happened to live in the land now called Israel) were not driven out. Actually, they left so that the surrounding Arab nations could exterminate the Jews back in 1948. Too bad they backed the wrong horse. Had they stayed they could have had much better living conditions than they have presently. You need to study up on your history, sweetie.

Howdy Omran; Yes, there are some far-right-wing Ultra-Orthodox Jews who want to "ethnically cleanse" the Palestinian Territories of all Palestinians and bulldoze the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount and build the Third Temple up there, but fortunately, this is not the point-of-view of most Israelis nor of the Israeli government. Most people with any sense realize that 4 million Palestinians in the Territories aren't going anywhere and the 7 million Israelis aren't going anywhere else either. The whole thing boils down to a determination of where the border is by mutual agreement between Israel and the PA.

Who were sent to collect the Qassam launcher? Like drug dealers who hand the cocaine to children because they won't get sent to prison. HAMAS commits child abuse to both Israeli and Palestinian children through its Qassam attacks.

Margie, it's time you cleaned out your attic; some of those precious mementos of yours are starting to mildew.

You're peddling dubious wares, Tosefta. Why? If the body regulated by the Charter doesn't accept the changes then the changes don't exist. Simple and clear even to you, I should imagine. that's 1. 2. 3. and 4. as well, all answered. Clear as daylight. sof pisook.

Jacob Blues, you are now talking like ChanahS and I will repeat it to you what I had to repeat to her 3 times, that I was not making any parallels between the Gaza collective punishment that you chose to call by its antiseptic name of "siege" and my reference to the Nazi-like actions that pertained to the severity of the punishment being dished out. You somehow have commandeered the word Nazi to your own purposes as if the Nazi only hurt or did awful things to Jews. You should be a little less defensive and maybe you would stop receiving the wrong signals from my message. I still find it inconceivable for a nation that has experienced the horrors of a holocaust to find no fault with what Israel is doing to the Gaza Palestinians. Please reread this sentence before you also misconstrue it.

the fact that the sole heir of abraham was isaac[the father of the jewish people]and not ishmael...they might be peace in the middle east.and the modern jordanians must go back to their homeland[mecca]and the modern palestinians to jordan[the land of esau].

I would ask you to look at the situation of the Pals in Lebanon before you post. I am not speaking of the Al Islam faction currently fighting the Lebanese Army, but the Innocent Pals that live in abject poverty. Are they not the same as those in Gaza?

he is the same genius that claims that I couldnt understand Quebec, where I was born, raised and live most of my life because I am a Jew(thats right his words) and as such I am also a part of the 'exploiters of the french canadians" With such arrogance and fear on display is anything not possible here?? Regards

"Actually, what`s wrong with collective punishment? No army can last for long without the support of its civilians. Therefore, one of the goals of war is to frighten the civilians so much that the enemy will beg for peace." - Yonatan What is wrong is the Geneva Convention. There is no "war" in Gaza (legally speaking) but an armed insurrection. Gaza is still legally occupied by Israel, and the Convention forbids collective punishment. Israel has the legal right to move into Gaza and clean it out of Hamas. But it refuses to bear the cost of the operation. The following is a UN document which talks about Gaza as "occupied" AFTER the Israeli withdrawl: Reports on Urgent High-Level Fact-Finding Missions to Occupied Palestinian Territories and to Beit Hanoun The Council has before it the report of the High-Level Fact-Finding Mission established under resolution S-3/1 (A/HRC/5/7). By that resolution, the mission was requested to travel to the town of Beit Hanoun in the occupied Palestinian territory of Gaza, following Israeli military operations carried out there in 8 November 2006, and was mandated, inter alia, to assess the situation of victims; address the needs of survivors; and make recommendations on ways and means to protect Palestinian civilians against any further Israeli assaults. http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/FDB14682D29B482FC12572F9004E72F9?opendocument

Booh hoo hoo, are you telling me you or any other arabs would care if Iran could nuke Israel, without the fallout hitting them?? All your talk about Israel=Nazis is really a smokescreen to justify your Nazi like views and urges in regards to Israel.You are the keetle calling the pot black.

I am glad you are here Walid , I need your help.After having been informed by you ,that as I am a Jew I couldnt possible comprehend the realities of quebec past and present (your words), I am really confused. I am confused at how can a Canadian raised lebanese understand anything about Israel?? According to you I cant understand the place I live because I am a jew, yet you can understand a foreign country full of jews though you are lebanese!! WOW!! Do I have to become an Arab understand things then?? How does this work Walid?? Thanks

I suppose anyone who doesn't fall for your stories is mentally blind or toseftally challenged or some such. You are a purveyor of dubious wares. If the body whose charter it is doesn't accept this new version it hasn't been changed. Sof pisook.

Walid for once it is not Israel that sanctioned the Gazans but the EU And for a good reason! Hamas moved money from EU Funds specified for electricity, to anything but electricity. That is an act that should be punished, this is not gun money, this is not profit money and it is not money that belongs to Hamas, and Hamas as the representative of the Palestinian people in Gaza, should have treated it as such! Sorry for the suffering of the Palestinian people in Gaza that today live without electricity, but if the ones how are running the show (Hamas) won?t understand what is right or wrong, they will continue to manipulate money that is coming in to Gaza and WB for purposes that the money wasn?t intended for! The population has a lot of power that they don?t use, and it is time they tell Hamas go away for your way is wrong; it has been done before in Lebanon when the population pressured Arafat in to leave Lebanon, and it has to happen in Gaza too, for their sake only!

Howdy Tosefta; Yes, the results of shutting out Hamas after its refusal to agree to the Quartet's three conditions for the restoration of Western foreign aid have been spectacular. Hamas is no longer in charge of the PA and the Palestinian Territories have split into two physically and politically independent pieces. The internationally recognized terrorist organization, Hamas, has been isolated, confined, and exiled to the Gaza Reservation and Terrorist preserve where they can tear their hair out and gnash their teeth in frustration at not being able to attack Israel with anything other than inaccurate Qassams which can be counterfired. A realistic peace agreement is now possible but only between Israel and the West Bank while Hamas is left stuck like a bug on flypaper in Hamastan. Yep, ostracizing Hamas has had excellent results so far and all that Hamas can do about it is to bark a lot, but their bite keeps getting weaker.

recognised the right of Palestinians to exist,israel does not recognise the rights of refugees whom it drove out of their homeland& israel does not cease its murderous violence against the Palestinians,the latest being the killing of 2 Palestinian children in Gaza(See the other thread.Israel has so far killed 20 plus children!).

It is a cardinal fault of those in Israel to focus, myopically, on events in their back yard. Of far greater significance to the people of Israel than the expansion of their illegal settlements, or how Hamas is being contained, neutralised or otherwise dealt with is the rise of Islamic Extremism in the Middle East and the steady move to nuclear power status of Iran. It is these things which Israel's survival hinges upon, not its treatment of the Palestinian people.

Of course you can't "see". And there is "proof" it didn't happen: 1. It wasn't reported in Arabic, so it didn't happen. 2. "Leading" Palestinians(?) say it didn't happen, so although the Palestinian officials say that it did happen, and the record of the vote exists, and Clinton was there, it didn't actually happen. 3. Israel no longer asks for the change not because it happened but because Barak, Sharon, Olmert are all suffering from amnesia. Proof: Sharon can't remember anything.

Isael and Egypt kept supplying Gaza. Why not really say it like it is. Hamas has done its best to cut its own nose off. Where is Meshaal and Damacus? Why aren't they offering to help? After all they supply arms to Hamas. why not fund some of the cost of electricity?

The PLO charter of 1964 stated clearly that they have no sovreignty over Gaza and the WB, that it was Egyptian and Jordanian....so it wouldn't be such a stretch for those two countries to absorb the Arabs of Yesha, not that it would ever happen. Since you've mentioned ethnic cleansing, tell us about the Jewish population in the arab world today. Tell us about the ethnic cleansing that caused a Jewish population of 800,000 in the 40's dwindle to about 35,000 total. Explain the ethnic cleansing of Jews and the loss of all assets above and beyond what they could carry with them. yeahh tell us about ethnic cleansing, you're so good at it.

Here's a lesson in Arab-Muslim History: Territories invaded, occupied and forcibly islamized: In 635: Byzantine Syria, Jerusalem. In 639: Armenia and Egypt In 642: Byzantine North Africa, Persia. In 709: Khorasan and Sogdiana In 711: Pakistan and North India In 711: Iberia (temporarily) The African Sahil, Zanj, Southeast Asia, East Asia where the sultanates of Mataram and Sulu were established.These two last ones should sound very familiar to your ears. How do you think your forefathers felt when they were "islamized"? You know far too little about your own heritage! Learn more and speak less! Furthermore,Israel is none of your business!

I treasure this declaration of yours and will keep it locked up in a golden casket. " the Palestiniasn people and the Hamas people are not the same."

I bothered to look and to read the extract and lo and behold I came eventually to this portion: " A June 1999 report by the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information on the status of the Charter made no mention of the 1998 events and leading Palestinians continue to state that the Charter has not yet been amended." I do feel your claim was over optimistic and rather misleading. What's your interest in peddling false wares?

Hamas's sole reason for existence is to destroy Israel. They will only govern Gaza to the extent necessary to promote their cause. It appears that Hamas only finds repressing opponents to be necessary for their cause.

You started your commentary by raising the image of the Holocaust. Later, you included "Israel's Nazi-like tactics". Sorry, but 1+1 = 2 here. Jews are certainly not the center of the universe, but when you open with this line of reasoning, the use of 'Nazi like' does not translate into some general contemplation of the horrors of WWII. Jews didn't get the option of making peace with the Nazi's. We were herded to the slaughter. Gaza is under seige because HAMAS decided it wants to continue its war nearly two years after Israel pulled out.

Gina, I can see you just turned your computer on and starting punching away. I am not a sympathizer of Hamas and I don't condone any suicide bombings. Read before you write!

Moshe, the Palestiniasn people and the Hamas people are not the same. I have not written a word in favour of Hamas so far but you along with all the other Jews have been brainwashed in associating the whole of the people with Hamas and their stupid charter and this is why so many of you are insensitive to the misery of the Gazans. Lately, you are being told that the Palestinians on the WB may be OK provided they go along with Israel's ally, Abbas. You must try to understand the difference make the distinction between the two.

You are indeedbeing kind Jeff Northbridge and to a people who do not understand 'kindness'. Neither is it to tell them to down their guns first and they will have peace. No, these people have one language and that is the language of terror and brutality and to know who is Master and maybe then they might understand. It is no good this way,there must be a War against Hamas and they must be vanquished and appeasing Fatah will get nowhere. The Palestinians are a dangerous lot, sorry and maybe the reason why no Arab Country wants them and leaves it to Israel to deal with them.

You people voted for Hamas And got your comeuppance, The moral for all of us to see, Hamas has no concept of reality, No good expecting governance, From a terroristic?s utterance. They will continue to stagnate, And no doubt will degenerate. Haniyeh wake up you fool! Instead all you do is drool. In thinking Israel will vanish, Your dreams must be tarnished. Your erstwhile friend is Abass, So make up and don?t be an ass. Your fealty is debased all told, Relying on Iran will not hold. Iran may help in the short run, So for awhile you can dream on. It cannot last forever you know, Europeans will desert and how! Why make life so unbearable, Your people crying is terrible. Get thee out of the ?brotherhood? They are just ?hoods?you dude! Not worthwhile for stubbornness, Think while you can,don?t digress. Life?s too short Haniyeh/Hamas, I said before just don?t be an ass.

"Show us the changed PLO charter after the Oslo deal. Give us the new URL. You promised it the other day and never delivered." - Angelique I never promised a URL because I provided it in my original post. But those who refuse to see will not see it. The PLO Charter was was changed in a vote by the PNC during Clinton's visit to Gaza (Dec. 1998) and in his presence. Take a look at the report, if you can bear to look at it: "These commitments were kept, leading President Clinton to declare to the assembled Palestinian officials on 14 December 1998 at Gaza: I thank you for your rejection?fully, finally and forever?of the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo. By revoking them once and for all, you have sent, I say again, a powerful message not to the government, but to the people of Israel. You will touch people on the street there. You will reach their hearts there. Like President Clinton, Israel and the Likud party now formally agreed that the objectionable clauses of the charter had been abrogated, in official statements and statements by Prime Minister Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Sharon, Defense Minister Mordechai and Trade and Industry Minister Sharansky." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Covenant

Religious Jews are wanting the same thing. Judenrein in reverse Get rid of all arabs. Start with Gaza - send them to Egypt. Then send more settlers to Hebron - send the Arabs there to Jordan, next???

Sobering articles do tend to have a sobering affect. Now you say so few Hamas as compared to the millions you felt were their backers just a week ago.

1. "Hamas`s continual involvement in terror with support by Iran" - S Actually, Hamas is being pushed into Iranian hands. Example: Iran objected, and objects, to a unity government (engineered by Saudi Arabia). It means Hamas was not, and is not, in Iran's pocket. But if Hamas is boycotted and Iran provides help, they will land in Iran's pocket. 2. "it very difficult for Israel and the West to support a Palestinian unity government, moreorless Hamas inclusion in negotiations." - S Actually, Hamas does NOT want to negotiate with Israel. They hate Israel as the occupier. They want Abbas to negotiate, and then the deal goes to a referendum. Looks ideal to me, but blind ideologues can't see it. 3. "they didn`t accept the 3 Quartet`s conditions" - S But then the Quartet changed its position; instead of a declaration by Hamas they wanted to see how it ACTS. We wouldn't know now, when they are in the dog house no matter what they do.

Hamas may, indeed, be stronger today after having smuggled munitions, including rockets, across the Egyptian-Hamas border. But so is Israel, which is a great deal smarter than last year.At least the Israelis understand and appreciate the support the Gazans have given to the Hamas bunch of thugs.This,alone, makes going into Hamastan much easier - why risk the lives of your IDF by going after terrorists from room to room in a building when one can domolish the entire structure, knowing that the "innocent" civilians supported the Hamas.

HOW WAS IT THAT SAID THAT HAMAS IS A CLEAN ORGANIZATION Well it seems that Hamas is more CORRUPT than Fatah Swindling moony from the EU Aid Funds earmarked for electricity And to think that Hamas?s acts of violence by throwing people off rooftops was redeemed and then glorified by some people here on the forum as getting something better for the Palestinian people, and how wrong they were, that same organization is not only an UGLY MURDERER but CORRUPT too!

Shame on whom? Israel is in the crosshairs of Hamas which wants to eliminate the Jewish state.Israel wants to survive in the Middle East filled with those nations,who want to complete the job the German government was unable to do 62 years ago.The Palestinians and their allies had ample opportunuty to live in peace and prosperity, but chose war instead. They instead complain and whine about the nasty Jews who defend themselves and have built free and democratic institutions for their people, who include non-Jews.

North Koria did't threatten to annihilate anybody, nevermind touching Israel. The suicidal Iran did. Therefore NK could escape the consequances that Iran can't. The issue of Iran needs to be resolved resolutely and with overwhelming military force. Iran's clock will need to be turned back at least 100 years. It has to be demolished and desmembered and serve as a good example for the moronic/static and aqword muslim world. Regards, Fatmah....

You believe in evolution. Presumably also redemption. And the Easter bunny and Flower Power. All that Hamas has to do is what the rest of the Arab world has expressed its willingness to do- state in Arabic, to its own people, that it will tolerate the dejure existence of Israel as an independent state, and be willing to make a permanent peace. For reasons of its own policy and perhaps beliefs, Hamas refuses to do this, or to state that it ever plans to, in any form. You go on believing in the possibility of "evolution". As of now, Hamas is powerless and loses 100 fighters or more for every Israeli life it takes. There is no sane rationalization for talking to them at all.

... So why you are inventing one? You are only concentrating on the Israeli side of the conflict. And that is your problem. The article correctly points out that Israel so far is fighting with its hands tied down. Many ordinary people know that for a long time now and are very, very inpatient to stop that insanity A.S.A.P. Again, for the stupid ones - there are no civillians on the moronic/arab side for the simple reason that the morons can't comprehand and recognize the concept of civilians on the Israeli side as well. So why is that empty talk. The world knows that issue very well, and stopped paying attention to it. Regards to ignorant, Fatmah...

"If [Tosefta] would only have read up on his History of Islam, he would have known that Muhammad offered a 10-year hudna with the Jewish tribes of Arabia, allowing him to build up his forces, and then he broke the hudna as soon as he felt himself strong enough." - Yonatan "Two points stand out. First, Muhammad was technically within his rights to abrogate the treaty, for the Quraysh, or at least their allies, had broken its terms. Second, it is equally clear that his response was disproportionate to the infraction: a raid by an allied tribe, even possibly with Quraysh connivance, hardly warranted conquest of the enemy's entire territory." - Daniel Pipes Yonatan, let me suggest that YOU read about the history of Islam. You will discover that (a) The Hudaybiya hudna was with the Meccans (Kuraysh tribe), not with Jews; and (b), that it was not Muhammad who broke the hudna but the Meccans. See the assessment of Daniel Pipes, a leading Muslim hater. (Of course, he still blames Muhammad, but for over-reaction.) Interestingly, I told you all of this once before, but you wouldn't change your mind. How come?

Show us the changed PLO charter after the Oslo deal. Give us the new URL. You promised it the other day and never delivered.

No. I accept my own responsibilities and expect others to assume theirs. Weeping and wailing never got anyone anywhere except an ugly red face. You forget that the Arab states made war on the newly born state of Israel in 1948 causing the refugees to leave. We didn't throw them anywhere. The people in other countries with nothing to live for are a result of the UN's policy preventing them from working or taking citizenship if they want to go on getting a subsistence dole. That's hardly Israel's fault. All the millions of Italian residents of the USA are not the responsibility of Italy, no matter why they left and similarly people who lived here are not Israeli responsibility, particularly if sixty years have elapsed. What a ridiculous expectation you have!

Howdy Omran; Unfortunately, Hamas' hopes and dreams include raising the banner of Allah over every square inch of Palestine (including all of Israel), the establishment of a totalitarian, undemocratic, theocratic Islamic caliphate in the same, and the imposition of strict Sharia law on those who manage to survive their "glorious" Jihad. If the Gazans want to live in Hamastan, then that's fine with me just as long as they stay on their side of the 1950 armistice line and refrain from trying to attack Israel from there. If the rocket fire and other attempted terrorist attacks continue, then the Gazans can only expect to receive humanitarian aid in the form of food, water, and medical supplies. If the Gazans stop trying to shoot at Israel, then there is tons of foreign aid and private investment capital available to jump-start the Gazan economy, but you've got to put down the guns first. Good luck!

israel is the good guy and Hamas,ofcourse,is the bad guy.Sure,20 years is enough,but it is 40 years of the Occupation!And in case you are not aware of the facts,Hamas was not involved in politics until fairly recently.They were engaged in religious activities and social service to the community.It is only in 2006 they entered the political arena and politics.I recommend you read a reliable book on Hamas,Dr.Khaled Hroub's 'Hamas for Beginners',2006.Dr.Hroub is an expert on the Middle East.He describes himself as a secularist(book available from Amazon.com).They played a minor role both in the first & second intifadas.

in the past indicated so. However, Hamas's continual involvement in terror with support by Iran at this juncture of our shared history in this dispute, makes it very difficult for Israel and the West to support a Palestinian unity government, moreorless Hamas inclusion in negotiations. It's really a catch-22. If I can make an analogy: There are those parents who do not speak for years to their rebellious, unruly, troubled, maybe seriously hurtful, uncommunicative son or daughter, who then isolates him/herself to further deteriorate their wellbeing. Then of course, there are those parents who don't accept this methodology of excommunication but rather seek outside support to nurture a better situation to the best of their ability so that their son/daughter would thrive. However, despite all wellmeaning efforts, a tragedy may very well ensue. .

How were the Palestinians different from the Arabs in the sorrounding countries? Was their religion different? Their language? Their culture? I have been in Jordan and I didn't see any difference between the original inhabitants and the ex-Palestinian inhabitants.

I throw out a lot of people and then I moan about how my neighbours won't take them in. [Come on. Would you have accepted that from the Arabs as they threw out the Jews?] I throw the refugees into an open-air prison just next to my territory, and I think that keeping over a million people there in misery with nothing to live for except hate for their occupier will contribute to my security. Nor could I care about another million in refugee camps in other countries. And what do you think will come to Israel as a result of this hubris?

Could this be it? Might Sharon have wished for the World to see the true nature of the 'Arab Refugee' who would falsely claim to be 'Palestinian' in order to claim land in that region where he does not actually belong, when that region would finally turn him into a cripple? Is the Gazan doomed? or like a phoenix rise up from its ashes again?

Oy, I have to go through the s(h)piel again. Many non-technical people cannot conceive of changes in the world, especially those driven by enviromental pressures. But change is one of the constants in our existence, and everything else's too. Hamas has been changing all along, as a result of pressure. At the initial post-Oslo period they refused to get involved in the PA which in their mind was a creation of Israel. They didn't run in the 1995, 1996, 2005 elections. But in 2006 they saw the light and ran (and even won). A change! Can't be! May be it was a mistake. Maybe. Hamas formed a Hamas government after their victory. It was boycotted by the world. So in 2006 they formed a Unity Government, allowing Abbas to negotiate with Israel, and agreeing to put the deal to a referendum. A change! Can't be! Well, may be it was a mistake. Maybe. While in the past Hamas only agreed to a 10 year hudna instead of a peace treaty, they already started talking about a 2 state solution. What would they have done if the peace treaty were to be approved in a referendum, and with a provision that a party not accepting it would not be able to participate in politics? Not hard to predict, except for people who can?t conceive of evolutionary changes. And for good measure we get the constant Hamas Charter nonsense. It was representative of Hamas positions when it was written (1988). The written word does not change constantly. The Torah never changes, but its interpretation changed radically, enough for Moses not to understand anything Rabbi Akiva was saying (as in the Talmudic story). Think of a more recent example. The PLO had a dangerous charter. But it was CHANGED after the Oslo deal. Once you have a peace deal you know what to changed the Charter into. Before that you cannot change it.

An economy does not motivate Hamas or for that matter Gaza's population. Revolution, and dead Israelis do motivate them; hamas knows that they are one rocket away from headline news. Politics, economy, misery, depravity, no fuel and Hamas would be voted in tomorrow. Allah Akbar! The pal sickness goes on and on and on.

You could encourage Hamas to accept the conditions of the international community, recognize Israel. Walid, always reminding us that Hamas is incapable of choosing human morality. Cheer up, Walid, perhaps you'll get lucky and Hamas will throw a few Palestinians off of the balconies, and you can then explain how Hamas has the interests and welfare of the Gazans in the highest of regards. Just like you tried to explain the reason why Palestinians and other Islamic terrorists strap bombs on their toddlers and encourage their children to throw rocks at armed soldiers is because "they love their kids".

ChanahS, I know very well that the Palestinians are no angels and I'm the first to say it. I think you have the misconception that the dreaded Nazis only did numbers on Jews whereas these evil people hardly left anybody that they did not make to suffer. When I'm saying Nazi tactics, I'm referring to the horrors they committed all over Europe. ChanahS, sorry to tell you this but the Jews are not the center of the universe.

The refugees from two huge world wars arent sitting around waiting. They've all been absorbed. It's only the palestinians who get the sympathy because nobody will take them in. It's all a big con. It'll happen to the Darfurians too.

Israel has the Gazan and Hamas exactly where they want them to be knowing full well that official US and EU truly don't care. Hamas is a terrorist organization in name only and has no, and never has had any real power to damage Israel. It does not recognise Israel which has never recognised the right of the Palestinian people to a state of their own (discounting lip service only). Fatah's recognition of Israel brought the Palestinians one big zilch. Burston's plea for the Palestinians to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is a joke- Israel has destroyed their infrastructure and continues to choke them economically, politically and socially. It is all in the hands of Israel which is looooved and supported by the Christian fundamentalists, thank you.

In response to #92: It can never be a good idea to acquiesce to killers and grifters such as Hamas. Like any thug on the make and on the take, they only come back for more if there are fools willing to deal with them. And there is no sense in continuing such a strategy.

S, thanks for the explanation.

No army can last for long without the support of its civilians. Therefore, one of the goals of war is to frighten the civilians so much that the enemy will beg for peace. This explains the fire-bombing of Dresden and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in World War II. These helped end the war earlier. The First Intifada began simultaneously on both the Egyptian and Israeli-held parts of Rafah, but the Egyptians put it down by force, having no compunctions about killing civilians. Israel didn't and so couldn't. Israel's hands are tied.

ChanahS, I never mentioned Zionists and would not either because they have nothing to do with this story of evil oppression. It is about bad people doing bad things to Palestinians and their religion or political philosophies have nothing to do with it. It must give you great pleasure to see the people of Gaza suffering and it must be helping in taking some of your pain away.

If you want to be read, learn to use lower case. No sensible person is going to make the effort to read somebody who deliberately makes it difficult.

If he would only have read up on his History of Islam, he would have known that Muhammad offered a 10-year hudna with the Jewish tribes of Arabia, allowing him to build up his forces, and then he broke the hudna as soon as he felt himself strong enough. Hamas, a fanatic Islamist organization, knows its History of Islam very well, and is trying the same tactic, in the hope tyhat the Jewish tribes of Israel will act like the ancient Jewish tribes of Arabia. Either that, or it is simply being cynical. So why take Hamas seriously whe it offers anything less than full recognition of Israel's right to exist?

Yes, the Arabs could (and should) have taken in the refugees in 1948. And yes, the reasons that they didn't included not wanting to legitimise Israel. So yes, they have a share of the responsibility. But the primary responsibility lies with those who threw them out, and then confiscated their property and ensured they couldn't return: Israel. And remember also another part of the reason: that the surrounding countries felt the Palestinians were different. (The bit that all the Zionists want to forget, denying that the Palestinians exist.)

Tzfonit, my response to Dana was taken out of context because the censors edited out 80& of what I had written and left the first sentence. I had taken care to explain that not all Israelis favour the ongoing collective punishment and had also said that true holocaust survivors or their families would not condone such action in Gaza and that I had known several survivors and they were very humane people. I don't know why it was cut out; maybe the language was too graphic.

you ask Who has established a wide humanitarian aid infrastructure? with the implication being that the answer is Hamas. If that was the case then we'd hear that the people of Gaza are being looked after well, that medical care is being given there, that their educational system is being initiated, that the money almost literally thrown at them was being used for humanitarian aid and psychological care for people who have been refugees for sixty years. But not a bit of it. Gaza is an arsenal, a military fortress which hasn't bothered to set up its own power facilities and has fought and bickered with the rest of the world to the detriment of its population until nobody is prepared to provide them with fuel for power. There have been rumours that the people are starving though the accounts published yesterday of the contents of stores negates this.

Thank you PSYCHOLOGIST for a concise and authentic analysis of the state of the Hanastanian. Gaza is slowly evaporating into dust and pity for that pretty little Hamlet that once was and which had to be destroyed to make way for a Palestinian State. Arabs do not have what it takes to build - only to destroy and they are destroying themselves.

The"general belief"? Whose general belief? Have you ever read about the Warsaw Ghetto or about life in a cencentration camp. I think not.Please tell me what the Palestinians are doing that is furthering their cause? About the only thing Hamas is successfully resisting is Palestinian independence and a better future for the Palestinian people.

IF 5 ARAB ARMIES HAD NOT INVADED ISRAEL IN 1948 THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO REFUGEES OF ANY SORT AT ALL !! TODAYS PROBLEMS LIE WITH ARAB COUNTRIES THTA HAVE KEPT THIS PROBLEM RUNNING FOR 60 YEARS !!

Don't think that it is love of the land that prevents Gazans from fleeing; it is lack of money. Those Gazans with money - and West Bank Palestinians as well - have been fleeing ever since the present Intifada started. I'm pretty sure that if you bought one-way tickets to any Western country for a Gazan family, they would grab them and pack their bags. Try it.

"Nazi-like treatment of the Gazans at the hands of the Israelis" In the same post you claim not to be invoking the Holocaust and then claim the above. You are tripping over your own tongue in an attempt to deflect from the reality of the situation. If you knew anything about the corcumstances, cause/effect of the Holocaust you would not keep slipping these snide remarks into your posts. The Palstinians are far from innocent, defenceless victims Walid, as you well know.

To keep insisting that Hamas is willing to agree not to slaughter innocent civilians, for a hudna period of 10-20 years, and that Israel is unfair in not agreeing to this is, in a word, crazy. There is not "peace" with an entity sworn, pursuant to its own written law, to your destruction. Israel won't do it, shouldn't do it and can't do it. If Hamas changes its charter and stated goals, they get a listen. Otherwise, to hell with them, let them rot- we'll tolerate their measly bottle rockets from time to time.

Zev, you talk about Abbas and Hamas and Arafat. These guys are all the same to me and I don't really care what happens to them but I do care for the civilian population that is bearing the brunt of the Israeli punishment. You conveniently choose to forget that Abbas was the understudy of Arafat. Giving him the money is like giving the key of the chicken coop to the fox.

The Palestinians have always had the option of peace, which they have consistently rejected. If you mean that as soon as they get Israel then all will be well, then forget about it. War is, and has always been their choice - check your history. Has they accepted the 1498 petition, Israel's offer of land for peace in 1967 and Barak's offer at Camp David in 2000, and had they had leaders who cared anything for them, they would long have been leading independent and productive lives. Unfortunately they prefer striving to destroy Israel above all else. Now do you understand?

The Arab countries of the Middle East banished or got rid of 800 000 Jews from within their borders. Most of these were absorbed by Israel, as a matter of course. The rest have become citizens of other countries around the world. None of them are sitting on the borders of their previous countries displaying their 60 year banishment like a weeping sore. Those countries that kicked out their Jews could easily have taken in the Arabs who left Israel. Gaza was 'created' by the Arabs not accepting the refugees. It happens to everyone: it's only the Arabs who reject refugees. A similar process is happening with Darfur. Nobody in the Arab world will help an Arab brother. It's not the Jews' fault. It the Arab nature.

"how long will the world continue to instigate a humanitarian crisis on innocent people in order to make a point with Hamas?" The world will continue to send humanitarian aid. But no one will legitimize Hamas' terrorist murders. Perhaps you wish to tell the Gazans to "duck and cover"? This is your advice to the endangered Israelis, correct?

How can you say Hamas has nothing to offer regarding a government? Who has established a wide humanitarian aid infrastructure? Who is policing the streets? Regarding the Jews in Warsaw, the general belief is they should have fought the Germans and attempted to bring down the German state, instead of waiting for death like sheep. That's what you want Gaza and Hamas to do. Roll over and beg your forgiveness for taking away their hopes and dreams.

Ronnie Wolman greetings old friend, your skating is worthy of the best Maple Leaf skaters. You talked about everything else but did not answer the question if you agreed with the way Israel is dishing out the collective punishment on the Palestinian civilians to get at Hamas. To save you another skating session, I do not like Hamas so please answer the question. We'll talk later about Hizbullah if you want but first answer the question.

" In Lebanon 2, Hizbollah killed about 42 civilians during the course of the war. Israel killed over 800. " That's what happens in war, Natalie. Innocent civilians get killed. You show me a war without dead civilians. If more Lebanese got killed than Israelis, who's to blame for that? Not Israel, but the side that started the war by an unprovoked attack on the Israeli Army. During World War II, many more Japanese civilians got killed than American civilians. Are you going to blame the US for that or the Japanese for their attack on Pearl Harbor?

Avrum, the cold must have arrived early in Montreal because it is affecting your reading skills. I was not making any comparisons between the Palestinian situation and the holocaust but saying that for people who suffered the horrible holocaust, they should know better and be more humane and object to what the State of Israel is inflicting on the civilian population of Gaza. Darfur is also horrible and so are the Palestinian refugees in the camps of Lebanon but these do not justify the Nazi-like treatment of the Gazans at the hands of the Israelis. I can have this message translated for you if you wish.

"Hamas, which, if it fails to act against Israeli attacks, is viewed at home as weak, and if it decides to attack - whether by rocket, mortar, sub-machinegun ambush or suicide bombing - is viewed abroad as terrorist. " It was Hamas who chose to immerse their mosques and schools with the savage ideas that the murder of Jewish civilians is the highest of Islamic virtues. It is Hamas who adamantly refused to meet the terms of the international community and recognize the right of the Jewish state to exist.

Imagine what would have happened had Israel and US had the good sense to work with the Hamas Unity Government after its formation. Gaza of course would not have been detached from the West Bank without Hamas needing to fear a coup. But there would have been far better positive consequences: 1. Hamas suggested a cease fire in the West Bank (in addition to Gaza). In return, it pledged to impose it on the smaller terror groups. Abbas also made the pledge. Had this been done, Hamas and Fatah for the first time would have shown an ability to suppress terror. This is important for Israeli confidence in a peace deal, which now is non-existent. 2. Hamas was moderating its stand all along (as a result of international pressure), and started talking about the two state solution as their final objective. They agreed to Abbas negotiating with Israel and having a referendum on the deal. With Hamas having finally agreed to the 2-states, there would have been little danger of missiles from the West Bank. This is what is killing the real peace prospects today. In short, by bringing Hamas into the process, there could have been a realistic peace agreement, while now it can be done only in Dreamland. It is not too late. I suggest the Saudis insist on this as a condition for participation in the Bush peace charade. What will help is that the Italian Prime Minister already suggets this, as well as some British MP?s and all Arab countries.

My post to dana dealt primarily with the use of big words reserved for big things. "Genocide", "apartheid", and from you, herein, "Holocaust". Words meant for murdering millions are now used when a family is killed accidentally. The word "cruelty" is used when a nation uses defensive measures against constant and ever (60 years of) increasing terror attacks. Comparisons are made where no similarity of cause/effect exists. All these are big words used by small people.

You've got him in a nutshell. Well done.

Gazans voted for Hamas to counter Fatah corruption. However Hamas never delivered what they promised - to give them a better future. It is up to the people of Gaza to voice their outrage about what Hamas has failed to do for them. The Germsn also voted for Hilter becasue he promised them a better economic future - this did not save them when he took them to war instead.

Well, "Softwalker", surprisingly, when I wrote that Israel created Gaza I wasn't meaning that Ben Gurion waved a magic wand and Gaza arose from the waves. But Israel created the Gaza strip as it is now, with (UNWRA figures Dec 2006) three-quarters of its population official registered refugees (and even revisionist Israeli historians are now coming to accept that the Jews just might have something to do with all those Arabs who fled). 200,000 refugees onto a population of 80,000. That's what created Gaza. Yes, as I pointed out, the Gazans have been treated desperately badly by Egypt as well. No argument about that: but it doesn't remove Israel's responsibility. Same goes for the EU's failure to meet the bill, after Israel relented and started to allow fuel in. A wrong and unjust decision: but the buck stops with Israel. In law and in morality.

" the tit-for-tat Jewish dance"??? Ihope you are not one of those who claim that you love Jews but hate the Zionists - as you have just given yourself away big time. As far as I know it is always the Arabs calling for revenge - for what else is the tit -for- tat dance ? Remember the cries for vengeance for the Danish cartoons? Your arguments are quite pathetic.

The suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza is the absolute total responsibility of the Hamas government which was elected by these people and certainly not the responsibility of Israel. You must remember that it is Hamas which is after the destruction of Israel despite the fact that Israel withdrew from Gaza 2 years ago.Israel is a sovereign country in its own land and instead of Hamas building Gaza for the future of their people, they chose instead to allow the firing of rockets against Israel. Similarly the suffering of the Lebanese people is entirely due to their government allowing Hizbollah to be a government of criminals within the Lebanese govt. Israel has the right to take all measures to protect its citizens whether you agree with it or not.Look what is going on in Lebanon now when government's forces are engaged in a difficult war against some Islamic gangs of murderers . Are you not ashamed ?

With the fact that the Gaza Palestinians are now truly isolated in every realm because of Hamas's doing essentially, since they didn't accept the 3 Quartet's conditions a year and a half ago, things really look like doomsday. But hopefully responsible leaderships on both sides of Hamas and Fatah could eventually work together if something substantial develops with regards to current peace negotiations between Abbas and Olmert. Hamas has to renounce use of violence against Israel by stopping Qassams and terror operations. Isn't 20 years of the same enough? What truly has been accomplished but misery? What's gained for the average Palestinian who just wants to make a living and feed his family to continue this senseless paralysis and defy the whole world?

Seeing as no Jewish person mentioned the Holocaust here, I wonder why you bring it up, and why you feel that your saying SOME Israelis is going to make your accusations acceptable. The Holocaust has absolutely nothing to do with what is going on in Gaza, and by using it as a cheap shot to claim that Israel must examine its conscience you are merely detracting from the credibility of your argument. What happened to the 100 million dollars that Israel gave the PA a few months ago when Abbas was still in power in Gaza? Was it used to improve infrastructure or to purchase food, medicine, resources, build schools? Do you really think that the remaining money that has not been turned over would be used to pay for fuel to run the Gaza power stations now that Hamas is in power? Who is paying for all those weapons? But I can assure you of one thing ? SOME Israelis care a hell of a lot more what happens to the people in Gaza than the Europeans or the Hamas leaders themselves.

"As far as Israel is concerned, never again will we willingly lie down and die". Fair enough, Chanah. Now, can YOU understand when Palestinians say that they, too, will not lie down, roll over or give-up their rights? What's good for the goose is good for the gandor, no?

The everpresent envy and jealousy is on display again, once again mentioning holocaust, ghetto, survivors....ah poor Walid. Somehow managing to even begrudge Jews a genocide and desperately seeking an equivalence for it. You know what...there's an expression that goes something like be careful what you wish for as you just may get it. You people haven't had a thimble-full of what Jews have gone through and you know what....you wouldn't be able to survive it. You make mountains out of mole-hills in your desperate search for equivalence where there is none. ahhh but you're well aware of this and that's why you're just dithering in your bitterness. cheer up, you can always keep trying to frighten some women.

Hamas is another example similar to Sinn Fein of the much vaunted Northern Ireland peace process who have nothing to offer beyond violently overthrowing governments, as so often happened and happens in the banana republics of South American countries. Without external and blind support of foreign donors they are always useless when in government.

Yes, one does wonder how many Israelis really care, particularly when taking into consideration that we are close by and see what is happening, unlike the Europeans who nonchalantly withdraw funds while Israel paid for fuel. The entire 100 million dollars transferred to Abbas has disappeared as if it never existed, but there is still money for weapons in Gaza, but none for fuel to run the electric plant. Should Israel now transfer more money to Hamas? Do you think it would be used to pay for fuel if we did? Yes, Dana, we are just a little paranoid of Hamas. It must be our nature. But now that you have finished your book, I recommend you read the Hamas charter. It might make our so called paranoia more clear to you. But since you term a holocaust as being spectacular, I would suggest you examine your own immunity to suffering. What happens to Israelis or Palestinians is a big game for you, but I doubt you really care about either.

In her zeal to damn Israel and Israelis dana has no patience with any kind of rationality or reason. She personally knows by some alchemy that everybody living in Israel behaves in a predictably racist fashion and has the kind of predictably racist thoughts that she ascribes to them. Yesterday she told us how to pick a number and find that that amount of Israeli Jews had never had a conversation with an Arab. This she said without apologies or regard for accuracy or research and disregarded our objections. Today she ascribes to us the callousness that causes the holocaust, again without any reliable measurement: straight out of her polluted imagination. I wonder what drives this kind of hatred.

only if Hamas agreed to the Quartet. Perhaps rational people here and elsewhere can still talk the Hamas into adhering to the three requirements of the world, including btw the PA's presidency and the Arab states.