Hamas takes fight to Gaza City; 27 killed in clashes

America can't help Fatah for three reasons. Reason 1, the American military is too stretched to begin with with campaigns going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. 2. America's economy is so bad that the government can't afford to finance another campaign. 3. America is not officially at war with Iran, hence attacking Iranian efforts in Palestine would be considered an act of war. Israel can't help either simply because every time Israel goes into Gaza, Hamas and Fatah forget their rivalry long enough to work together to push the Israeli military out. With the so called cease fire with Hamas continuing and the possibility of talks with Syria, Israel doesn't want to do anything to add to the current situation.

your post are 'opportunities'. Israel should do nothing and let the Palestinians dig their own graves with their own hands. That is the best way Israel should do and let the Palestinians finish themselves and their own bogus claims. Fighting them is costly and will always produce more of the same . Talking with them is talking to a brick wall . Ignore them and they will be pushed away in time. Time has changed Willy. The world has more serious problems today than the Palestinians problem. It is down in the list of priorities for all the nations of the wolrd. Only Israel is taking the Palestinians seriously.Mad !

the plan is in motion, fisrt hezbollah, now hamas, then some others, then finally, syria and iran, your arrogance is your downfall, israel is deteriorating fast, like a forest fire that re-grows, hamas will make a new order and unite pals.fatah is weak and obeys the west for it's own benefit, abbas should go.

Willy, you surprise me. You did not quoted the number of the post you mentioned;all those things on your post 365#. I am enirly against all those things you acuse me of saying. But never mind; the important thing we both have the same principle idea. I wish to re-state here. -I don't consider where Israel now is an occupation. -Giving any land by Israel is a crime in my book -I mentioned an 'opportunity' as you quoted me. Israel has a wonderful opportunity that she musn't miss:To end the PA which was a mistake. and a burden. Stop looking for a Partner that doesn't exist.Turn its back on the Palestinias and cut all relations with them. If any try to work with the International Community to creat a state like the situation in Cyprus between Israel and Gaza. -Israel is a Jewish State or nothing.Israel should think about that or nothing.Israel is the result of God's promise or of Jewish History the diaspora and all that;these are Israel's guide lines.

Actually I think he can, for several reasons. The country really seems to be starving for a new voice and someone who they hope can repair our Image in the world. Hillary...well, it's just that something about her - (rule #1 for alpha females; better have some sense of humor to soften the edges). Plus too establishment. Country will not vote for her (though democrats may). In obama's case, I really think race is about as much of a factor as in Oprah's case. handsome and tall trumps race anyways. In person he can be really charming (when not tense) which trumps discomfort due to obvious smarts. I really am impressed with how fast a learner he is, and am not so easy to impress. Have some role in the education area now, so am biased. Biggest risks: 1. Misteps by him or wife (she is a fire cracker!); 2. AIPAC on the fence, and can tip primaries if unhappy. Hope he's careful; 3. Clinton machine 4. organizational failure (work in progress) 5. business endorsement unclear yet

"seems america and israel do not like democracy when it doesn`t suit them."-Viper I think you are incorrect. In addition, if you vote for an organization that seeks the destruction of it's neighbor and is an Iranian surrogate, then you and your masters will get war and face utter destruction.

Dana, do you really, truly believe that Obama can win? I think he would make a great President, but wonder if America is ready for him? What is your take on it? Regards.

Obama. I would have supported Colin Powell and he could have been president if he had not hooked up with Dubya and got caught in the UN lie/Iraq mess. His wife has always said no to any run. Obama would probably make a great president, but, being the realist that I am (some would say pessimist), I don't think he will be elected in today's America, but would be good next time around. I don't want a Repub president and if my pessimism is realism, voting my heart instead of my head may just give us all more of the same. I guess we will see. I just hope Guiliani doesn't get nominated. With 3 marriages, pro abortion, pro gun control, blah, blah, he cannot carry the bible thumper states. As for those concerned about Israel, I don't know who is the best candidate, but conditions on the ground in the ME will determine who does what to who and when and not their presidential pronouncements. Regards.

At least with an Israeli paper you have the opportunity to write and have some comments printed. Do you happen to know of any newspapers in Arab countries that offer talkbacks at all?

Yes Dutch, and the Israelis are also responsible for the Shia and Sunni murdering eachother in barbaric fashion in Iraq. Why not simply face the fact that many Arabs are still living in the 14th century?

This is the best thing that could have happened! Hamas will fight Fatah and they will both become very weak. Israel will just sit back and watch. When both Hamas and Fatah are real week, Israel will invade and bring PEACE to PALESTINE and its people. The Palestinian families mostly care about their families and their love ones. Israel will kill and distroy HAMAS and the crazy nuts who want to distroy what little the Palestine people have left. If Israel is SMART, they will build schools, roads, Hospitals and bring back the dignity to the Palestine People by helping them help themselves and in the end, Palestine and Israel could and should be able to live in peace. Hamas is a JOKE. The real leader of HAMAS lives in Syria, his so called people kill their brothers and he feeds his face and watches TV with a SMILE. The army of HAMAS allows this and they are the NUTS because they can't see that they are getting screwed.

Whoever was given the job of looking after Talkback yesterday PM, curiously didn't like any of my posts and imposed a blanket censorship. I can't imagine that silencing particular poster's voices was part of his job description.

Thank you another Palestine. The most cherished assessment of the situation that can not be any truer than yours. Your voice, however muffed is worth almost all the voices combined here including mine. And I am not dumn enough to ask you where your role is in opposing them either. The brute evil brandishing weapons is ordering the tune, & you are no match for them. Only the collective word strength in unison can stop it, but than there are a lot of eyes, for the variety of reasons & desires totally `fixated` on Israel only, that are in the way.

"The gallant armies of Allah have waged seven major wars against Israel and have a one hundred percent failure rate. Does not Allah have the ability to give victories to his faithful followers?" Allah seems to always give victory to the Israelis.

It's not the way I respond to somebody

It's not the way I respond to somebody

By denying Israelis the right to human dignity and to life, you do realize, don't you, that this teaching has seared the minds of Palestinians and allowed your people to embrace and deprive ANY human their rights to sanctity of life... thus, your people tossing live Palestinian human beings off of roofs and cruelly killing Palestinians women as reported above. It would seem to me that you'd be more invested in protecting Palestinian civilians rather than engaging in beliefs that ultimately lead to their wanton murder.

Events are spinning and swirling. In 24 hours, probably no analysis will be updated enough. Putsch in Hamastan. Unrest or spillover in the West Bank. Lebanon's government hanging, and Israel under psychological warfare and Qassams by Iranian, Syrian and Al-Qaida meddling. Iraq is Muqtadastan, another Iranian province. Egypt, Jordan and Saudis are scared. Bush doesn't know what he?s doing, and Israel has a new president and new labor head in 24 hours. It's too many unpredictable factors for even a situation-room computer to correctly assess. So prophets of doom, hysterics, antisemites, right-wingers, lefties, all would be wise to be very alert, but wait for the dust to settle. Any hasty analysis here creates more dust and darkens visibility. Israel should think well and not precipitate a decision that is not 100 % necessary today. Perhaps only a patrol on the Philadelphy route and a way to hand Palestinians water and electricity is a must. Everything else can and should wait a few hours

Is Israel ready to take advantage of this situation ? How should Israel take advantage of this messy situation.? Reoccupation!!!! No way it's just madness for Israel to do that. Peace talk??? With who? Abbas will soon be out of the scene without Dahlan helping him to coordinate the Fatah militants. Hamas refuses to recognise Israel and is sworn to the destruction of Israel. Hamas is definately not a good partner for peace talk. So maybe you could give us some ideas how Israel can take advantage of the situation!!!

Gaza iranisation completed , soon the west bank under Iran boots ,With Iran nukes as a fait almost accomplit , is this what happens when US flatters Israel as a "Model State" ?, Is this the result of Israel supporting US "Desaster" Road Map , and praisng 2002 Arab League machination , Is this what happens when they manipulate public opinion to make political and territorial space to Hamas , Iran Junior , Despit the above danger , Israel and US jews are busy at redressing Israel's presidential image by Electing the Fabricator of Oslo monumental deceit , Is this what happens when Israel allows foreigners to have a look at its curves , borders ,

Those who think that Hamas is different from Fatah are in for a big surprise. Hamas is as corrupt as Fatah . Where are the millions that was given to Hamas by Iran and the arab nations. This money went straight to Hamas and yet we,the ordinary people did not benefit from it. All the money are used to purchase weapons or pay the salary of Hamas militants who act like gangsters and ya the leaders of Hamas are not corrupt(BS). There are talks that big amount of cash were found in some of the leaders' houses who ran from Fatah thugs. Sorry I do not support either Hamas or Fatah!!! Pals affair must not be run by these bunch of gangsters but by honest, capable and decent ordinary pal. Or it will be another vicious circle.!!!!

I consider it important to often as possible expose the moral compass of those who support Palestinian terrorism.

ERIC DO YOU THINK YOU ARE BRAND NEW ?? THIS WAS SAID IN 1948 1967 1973 1982 2000 2005 2006 IN 10 YEARS TIME GAZA WILL BE PART OF EGYPT

NOW TO SHOW THAT YOU ARE NOT COMPLETELY STUPID GIVE ME MAP REFERENCES FOR THE ALLEGED STOLEN LAND WHO OWNED IT BEFORE IT WAS STOLEN AND WHERE IT WAS REGISTERED IN TABOR BEFORE 1917 GIVING THE REGISTRATION NUMBERS !!

Ana, your statements make no sense. Hamas wants to destroy Israel so, why should they care if Hamas and Fatah kill each other. Fatah was too weak and cowardly to act agianst Hamas. Now they get what they deserve. by the way, Building the wall turned out pretty well for Israel.

The gallant armies of Allah have waged seven major wars against Israel and have a one hundred percent failure rate. Does not Allah have the ability to give victories to his faithful followers? Now Islam slaughters each other.

After Hamas destroys Fatah....IDF should destroy all of Gaza. That's the only real solution.

I see so-called Israel as an evil "lebenstraum" cult which has memorized, learned, and creatively updated the lessons of the oppressors and murderers of European Jewry; namely the strategies and tactics of Hitler and gang. So, in answer to your question to me: "Do you consider both (ie zionists and Jews) human beings worthy of human dignity and life?", I would have to answer that I am absolutely certain that zionism (as with nazism) will be held to judicial account for their actions, and that the lives of zionist murderers (and their supporters) will be determined in international court. In terms of dignity; no, I give no dignity to the followers of the cult of zionism. And how about you, Gina? Would you have bestowed the concept of dignity upon the likes of Eichman and his ilk?

Turkish forces flatten Damascus, occupy Lebanon. Hamas and Fata leaders rounded up then executed. The events about to play out on the stage of human history will proceed all the way to the bitter end.

Howdy Tosefta; Israel ceased being the occupying power in the Gaza Strip almost two years ago. The difference between the Gaza Strip being under the theoretical control of the PA while the Palestinian militant/terrorist groups scurried around shooting rockets at Israel under its protection and the Gaza Strip being under the exclusive control of Hamas is not all that great insofar as Israel is concerned. The biggest difference is that Hamas will be solely responsible for any attacks against Israel by anybody and they can be really clobbered by artillery and airstrikes and the international community won't say a thing except for a few squawks about "disproportionate use of force". Except for reoccupying some areas in the north and the Philidelphi Road, I doubt if Israel would want to reoccupy the rest of that snakepit unless it was absolutely necessary (casualties, especially Gazan civilian casualties would be high). No, the Gazans won't starve (the UNRWA will see to that).

"However, I am capable of seeing the difference between zionists and Jews." Do you consider both human beings worthy of human dignity and life? An excellent question on your part, Gina. Worthy of the so called `pride & honor of Islam`. "However, I am capable of seeing the difference between zionists and Jews." Do you consider both human beings worthy of human dignity and life?

As a reward to Hamas for all they have done to help Israel by discrediting the palestinian cause throughout the world, Israel should send the IDF to capture Abbas and then turn him over to Hamas for trial and execution. That would eliminate once and for all all the asinine calls for cease fire in West Bank and "special concessions" to strengthen Abbas. Abbas and his ilk have always been the most serious threat to the long term security of Israel. The IDF can always handle the likes of Hezbollah and Hamas, even at the cost of a few casualties, but it is the "reasonable" and smiling palestinians like Abbas who are the real threat for which military action is useless.

any such leader would be considered a threat by the powers that be in israel; he/she would be quickly taken out. those who are in control in israel(not necassarily the government), see no benefit in prosperity and peace with the palestinians; quite the opposite: they see it as a threat to their goals and will do whatever is necassary to ensure that any such aspirations meet with failure. they prefer the most subtle means possible for reasons of foreign relations; but make no effort to hide their efforts when subtlety fails. i share your hopes and ideals; but the situation as it is has been created by israel and is maintained by israel. the palestinian people themselves have very little, if any, control over their destiny/plight. they a mere puppets on a string, and the strings ultimately lead to israel. until those strings are severed, and those yanking them are stripped of their influence; there will never be hope for the palestinians, nor for any peace.

Can't be all bad if you like Obama too. He is by far the best of the lot to come around in a long time, and I just can't believe some of the naysayers around. Well, you'll be glad to hear that I am doing what I can for his campaign. Who knows - may even make a difference. Just love the criticism about him lacking experience (which of course is what people hide behind sometinmes when they would rather not say something else). Contrasting that with the current WH occupant, oh well.... Be good now, and no fighting, OK? (there's plenty in gaza already...)

Obama does much better against republican candidates than does Hillary.He wouls have a very good chance of winning, which would not only be good for america internally, but it would represent a major propoganda coup for the US internationaly and help shut up some of the more rabid and insane america haters in europe at least.Obama has the potential to be one of the great presidents, I believe he will grow into his job, he has alot of potential, he is the type of democrat I like, he is also a strong supporter of israel, so all around I like him, he is very very intelligent which would be a welcome change to that freak dumbell Bush.

Hello Jeff, Sorry for the delaying response, this is such a lively talk & so liitle time to attend all of it. Anyway, I think we are on the same page now in terms of realistic probability of the outcome. Except, I am still hard pressed to believe all the Israeli haters & especially loud as well as unseen, silent parts of the Muslim world, no matter what they proclaim, in their hart of harts wish for neverending Israeli strugle if she can not be eliminated altogether, will do anything possible not to separate the two & insist on the two state solution with the Arab world total upperhand, precisely because there is presently no bridge to it in sight whatsoever.

you still fail to make the distinction between "arab" and "palestinian", paul. i think you realize that you're not fooling anyone else by your attempt to justify israel's treatment of them by labeling them as "arabs"; so that leaves only yourself that you're fooling. and paul, you know what they say about people who can fool themselves?

I understand & concur the situation will not be the same, however as opposed to you for whatever your vision, wishes, ideology or perhaps personal interest lye, I am not rushing to `bow` to the radical scum because they are biting & controlling things behind human shield no-no`s. I am more inclined to stipulate a stronger response to an increased terror, or perhaps to do the intelligent cleanup. You have to also understand that if anything tragic on the larger scale will happen in Israel, there are going to be serious repercussions, & I doubt the Israeli bashing stink will completely stop them. PS Of course Gaza will be fed, as it should be, no one is looking to starve them (I will excuse your Israeli occupation for the nonsense it is, without your lengthy but famous for what you do best, deceptive spin).

no one! haven't you heard? aipac and israel are losing their influence over american jews. kinda tells you something; doesn't it? of course, aipac will still bring its weight to bear; but the more that's revealed about the realities of israel; the less that weight becomes. and now the christian right is losing ground at a rapid rate, too. seems the democrats have discovered that they can proclaim their christianity as well. this should go over big with christian voters; not having to choose between extremists and sanity. p.s.- i always get a chuckle when i can't think of the acronym "aipac"; because all i gotta do is an internet search for "the most powerful lobby in washington", and i get a page that's filled with it.

To be honest, I can't sense the change, I don't live in the Palestinian territories anymore. However, my family were always supporters of Fatah. Me myself, I'm not just a blind supporter of Fatah, however, I'm a secular person who believes religion has no role in politics, whether that's Palestinian or Israeli. Gaza will have more popularity for Hamas, however the West Bank will have more popularity for Fatah. Fatah was and may never be perfect, but at least they're mindset is different than the Islamists who are so hot blooded, they kill just for the sake of disagreement. The Palestinians are going through what the Lebanese are going through. Secularism vs religionism.

I did not think of it because there were so many variables in that action of declaring a state in the Gaza Strip. But that may be the politically expedient thing to do by Hamas. After declaring a state in Gaza they will have far more legitimacy than Fatah, especially if they bring peace to the people of the Gaza Strip. And as you said, there aren't any disputes about borders etc. in Gaza. Good thinking. But again, this is the ME. Nothing is predictable, not even the unpredictable.

"However, I am capable of seeing the difference between zionists and Jews." Do you consider both human beings worthy of human dignity and life?

man, intelligent, articulate, however, I don't think the USA is ready for one of my own to be President. Besides, males whites have messed up the country and the world; if he runs, he will be blamed for not straightening out an impossible situation. As far as AIPAC types, I do believe their influence is and will dwindle because of Carter's book to evangelicals, the ME mess (with neocon urging) and Iran. I like Biden. I like Thompson too, but I am afraid I am seeing his persona on his TV show rather than the real deal. I do think he will be Repub candidate. I can't stand Guiliani and wouldn't vote him dogcatcher. He is not qualified. We had enough of not qualified, poor student in college candidates. If oil is interrupted for any reason, AIPAC will slither away for a better day as americans won't put up with that. They already want out of Iraq big time. I doubt voters will put up with any appreciable hardship. What do you think? Regards.

*Defenestration: The most famouse one Mark Lincoln forget to mention is the one when the Czechoslovakian President Thomas Mazaryk was pushed from the window of his office in Prague by the Soviets. *Also may be, the word came from the german word: fenestra which means window. I hope I am right.

I wouldn't be able to stomach watching such horror. Ariel Sharon was a genius to expose to the international community the Gazans for exactly the values and teachings they have embraced. It is quite obvious the value of human life has no place in the Gazan society, and at no point will these murderers be made to feel shame or guilt by the Arab Islamic cheerleaders I'd wager.

Josh challenges Ahmed, "Make Gaza a model country, free religion, with a free prosperous educated people who love and enjoy their life. Don`t ask for any donations to do it too, be creative, create investment and business." What a preposterous challenge. Why not ask Israel to be a model country, with freedom of religion for others besides Jews, who love life instead of moaning and complaining, stop depending upon the billions of dollars of aid from the United States , Europe and worldwide Jewish philanthropy, and create a business and investment environment without being able to travel, transport goods, and grow crops without water.

you must try to get this straight so you don't keep embarassing yourself. SHARON'S protégés are murdering palestinian hope. and honestly, instead the smugness you so openly display; what you should be feeling is utter disgust for what israel has orchestrated in gaza. but the funny thing is that it has yet to dawn on you exactly what sort of demon sharon has created for israel. if you think what is happening in gaza is a GOOD thing for israel; you're more of an idiot than i ever dreamed. and yup, you're absolutely right paul; i'm sitting here on a magic mushroom and shaking my head while i watch stupidity like yours holding wide the door for the most threatening of isreal's foes while they laugh at the fate of any chance for peace. talk to me in 10 years, paul; if you're still around. p.s.-and don't even think of asking for some of my mushroom come that time. there's some things that NO amount of magic can ever fix. and besides, its a comfortable little stool; and it's MINE!

Behind the truth of what is going in Gaza is Arafat escape with lies and Abass caught by telling the truth.The Palestinians in Gaza are lost between the lies and the truth.Between the lies of Arafat and the straight talk of Abass. Israel should let the Palestinians wake up to the truth.If anything,the Palestinians in the the streets will end up the only winers in this unrevealing of the truth in Gaza. Abass can not end Hamas.No one person or one party can kill ideology.Only the people can end up ideologies.We have seen that in the USSR & E.Europe in the recent past.What happend there a testimony;the only ideology of the people is to live free and in peace.The Palestinians are in this awakening stage now. Israel should make advantage of that.Civil Wars are always meant to clear the deck.Both Fatah & Hamas will end up finished or damaged. Is Israel ready to take advantage of this situation ? This is the question now..Real Peace is can only be with people.

Shimon, I hope you don't work for the ministry of justice or mis-information as I would hate to think how your logic is going into building such a falsehood about the big bad Arabs in your midst out to get little defensive Israelis. Then you make a mountain out of a molehill like those foolish people in Sderot about homemade rockets while the Israeli Army and Air Force has pounded Gaza with hundreds of thousands of tonage of their 21st century shells (the most densely populated city in the ME) which are deadly and give off terribly harmful fumes. Where is your sense of reason and proportion, I would like to know? Has it gone up in the smoke of Qassam Rockets? Dutch

More about Israel's economy - for all those wishful thinkers or self-deluders and deniers: Read the op ed in the New York Times, June 10, by Thomas Friedman called "Israel Discovers Oil" The main gist is: Countries and companies that empower their individuals to imagine and act quickly on their imagination are going to thrive.

Howdy Eli; The Gaza Strip seems to have already sorted out its issues and except for a few days of mopping up, Hamas is effectively in charge of all 360 sq. Km. of the place. It is the Gaza Strip which should declare statehood first and not the West Bank. This is because the Gaza Strip is completely unoccupied by Israel (no settlers or IDF are in the way), the 1950 armistice line is not seriously in dispute and will serve as a border with few objections, and Hamas is exclusively in charge of the place. Of course, if the Gaza Strip declared statehood and continued to attack Israel from there, then Israel would be justified in going to war and reoccupying the place. The West Bank is much more problematical because the PA would initially only be in charge of Areas A & B, the border is in dispute, and there are 250,000 Israeli settlers and thousands of IDF troops in Area C whose status depends on where the border winds up being. Plus, there's the matter of East Jerusalem.

There are very few of those whom you so elegantly refer to as "Jew-haters" posting on these sites. Personally, I loathe and detest zionism as the greedy, murderous, racist cult that it is. However, I am capable of seeing the difference between zionists and Jews. Perhaps you should try coherent thinking as an antidote to pavlovian response.

"What if Jeff N. is totally right, & Hamas in full control of Gaza will still be irrelevant, ignored & `suffocated` by Israel & the rest of world key decision makers." - TonyL The situation will not be the same. At present, the borders and border passes to Israel and Egypt are attended by the Abbas Presidential guard. They also deploy in areas where Qassams are fired from and prevent them, when possible. On occassion they even discovered tunnels to Egypt. When you remove all this, things will get worse. In any case Gaza would have gotten more armed with not only Qassams but Katyushas too (can reach Ashkelon and beyond). The world will also not starve Gaza, as they refused to starve the Iraqi population under Saddam. But in Gaza, Israel is ultimately responsible because it is the Occupying Power. There is a general rule, today understood well, that if you leave a territory in the hands of terrorists it becomes a breeding ground for all kinds of trouble, al-Qaida for example. Happened in Afghanistan and before that in civil-warred Lebanon. Israel will not, and cannot allow this, so it will unhappily have to go in and do a cleanup. There are already people pushing for it for weeks, because of the Sderot situation. When it gets worse these people will win. I do not think Israel will have a choice, although it will hate doing it.

Hi Joe I was reading your hate filled comment and that just make me fill sorry about you. People always trying to live close to Jews its peaceful and we can build decent society as many other nations does. But your choice is limited. Is the matter of fact your dream of Islamising Jewish land of Israel will never come oops! Other than that Palestinians got what they ask for when they choose criminal gang as they political party. Also whatever you call occupied you right its occupied by brainless tugs who have no past nothing real time, and non future. So get hog stop hating maybe take vacation get some sleep.

You sum up my sentiments exactly. I'd only add what today's situation in Lebanon, Gaza/West Bank, Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan says about the intelligence (in both senses of the word), strategy and tactics of the twiddly-dee and twiddly dum(b) of zionist evil (USofA and so-called Israel). Is it possible to be any more stupid? Is it possible to be any more wrong? Is it possible to be bigger losers? Is it possible to be any more naked as would-be emperors in the eyes of the world?

Murray, Who do you think turned them into animals? It wasn't the fairies. When you trap people in a scaffolding of 500 checkpoints and launch massive incursions and house raids against them and try to bomb them out of existance --what do you expect? Love letters? As Winston Churchill pointed out, "People will treat you as you treat them. It's no secret". So stop denying Israel's role and as Dr. Alice Rothchild notes in her report from Gaza Pale- stinian violence can be traced back to Israeli violence of occupation. "We witnessed the devastating consequences for the civilian population of years of Israeli military operations. The checkpoints, closures and the severe restriction on movement and economic activity have contributed to rising unemployment, poverty accompanied by unusually high rates of infant mortality, acute and chronic malnutrition and inadequate outpatient and hospital care. At the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, Dr. Eyad el Sarraj spoke of an entire population suffering from the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety and depression, a consequence of high unemployment, extreme poverty and massive ex- posure to violence. We visited a family in southern Gaza where a child was suffering from PTSD after losing his father to Israeli army bullets and his home to a bulldozer. In the ghost town of Rafah, we stood in a sea of devastation - 1,500 demolished homes, crumpled concrete and twisted wire. A recent study by the program of 10- to 19-year-olds in Gaza found that two-thirds have seen a friend or neighbor killed or wounded, more than one-third have been tear-gassed and 82 percent suffer from moderate to severe PTSD. We know that the more trauma and violence occur in a child's youth, the more risk-taking and violence happen in later life...." http://www.vopj.org/conflict22.htm

I take solice in your affirmative words. I have faith in the Israeli people and in G-D, but NOT in the Israeli politicians, who I see, after today's shocker once again, as a bigger existential threat to Israel than Israel's enemies "out there". Ciao!

Thank you for the even handed approach to censorship on this website. I do however notice that you are allowing posts from a Dutch imposter. I cordially invited Dutch, who usually takes the high road by stating her full name Dutch Doris Cadigan of Massuchussets or Maine, to visit Sderot. The idea was that she was going to prove to the world that Qassam missiles are crude and could not hurt anyone (tell that to the Dead Israeli mans family killed just two short weeks ago). She was going to be supplied with a lawn chair and endure the endless wave after wave of Qassams. Surely her survival has demonstrated that she is indeed alive and well. However that is why I believe she is an imposter. First of all her frequent use of "Zionist" classic Arab propagandist lingo. Not used by Dutch. Secondly various other telltale signs that this is indeed an imposter. Alas I am sad to say that I think she finally bit the dust taking a Qassam missile but only to prove to Israelis that Hamas is deadly.

Wow, Dutch. A civil response! Thanks. If your only concern is the truth, we'll get along fine (sooner or later). But (you know there had to be a "but"): 1) Shouldn't you care just as much about the "lawful and just rights" of the Israeli people too? 2) I'm beginning to see a critical difference between you and HAMAS, whose definitions, with all due respect, are more pertinent than yours or mine. If they say, or think, that the "occupation" is all of Israel (as do the HAMAS charter, Nasrallah, the Iranian mullahs, Ayman Zawahiri, Abu Bakr Bashir, and many more), and want an end to that 'occupation;' then they are really demanding the destruction of all of Israel. That will not get negotiations very far. And they will not consider their suffering ended, and "get on with their lives," until they get all of Israel. So if your goals depend on what satisfies them, your goal becomes their goal. The destruction of Israel. Not a track for the "peace train."

Is all I have to say about your pathetic twisted mind and post. Regression? - that must be your brain.

I saw on BBC tonight how Hamas stormed a hospital, grabbed a man off the operating table while he was being operated on and executed him? I am waiting for some kind of reaction from Red Cross, Human Rights NGOs, medical unions, SOMEONE!!!!!!???????

Your argument is silly and childish as in 'when I walk to school with a snowball in my hand, I will never, ever throw it; however, little Johnny over there is making his snowball for the sole purpose of throwing it at me.' Please do try to be less subjective in debate.

The point was to prove your assertions about a jewish lobby that controls everything,(unless it happens to be one of the many exceptions you seem to allow for) to be the utter nonsense that it is.Just the fact that you took that seriously is cause for concern.I like Obama.

You could easily substitute the word "zionism" for all your fears, and I would agree with you. However, as it stands now, you and I are on diametrically opposite sides of the argument.

The disagreements and wars between the seculars and religious has been going on for a long time in every country in the world, including Israel. Only in USA do we have religious tolerance as our foundation, only because the first americans got tired of the crusades, inquisitions, jihadists and religious intolerance and persecution in the old world. The old world is the same and never changes. Only now jihadists chose to attack that democracy in the new world based on religious tolerance. The racism, intolerance, prejudice in the old world never changes. Maybe a few stragglers from Gaza who value religious tolerance will make it to the new world. I can guarantee, no one of you who is a jihadist is welcome here in the USA. To have freedom you have to believe in it. USA is a melting pot and we all come together as one; that is our strength. We are the peace lovers and the peace makers, an asylum for the persecuted.

The trapped rats are squirming and turning on each other. The US/Zionist policy of denying the election result, combined with Israel's I won't talk to you unless you do what we tell you has brought us to this sorry state. So sad for the already sad people of the Gaza ghetto. They are faced with a choice between corript US-backed Fatas or the religious zealots of Hamas. What a choice.

Interesting news about PP. If it's true, thanks. But Hitler's Nazi party sure did win the most seats in the 1933 election, which is WHY Hindenberg appointed him chancellor. But, you forgot to mention the way the Nazi's "quelled" opposition: the "Night of Long Knives", Kristallnacht, brutality in the streets, and murderous brown-shirt 'death squads? I hope that's not what you call democracy. Would you agree that a government that brutalizes and kills its domestic opposition doesn't deserve to be called democratic? Even if its people originally did make the mistake of voting for it? Would you agree that a fairly-elected government can still BE antidemocratic if it operates under anti-democratic principles? After all, Mubarak and Assad run elections, and get 97 or 98% of the votes. But are really dictators, not democrats. Same with HAMAS. They are anti-democratic. As was Hanbal, Ibn Taymiyyah, Wahhab, and today's version of Hanbalis, Yusuf Qaradhawi and the Saudis.

I think you are the "Bizzaro-type" to lay all this at Israel's door. Your response is despicable. Mr. George Bush is the one to encourage democracy and to sponsor a "Palestinian State" after the Arab world refused to agree to partition in 1947. So Israel fought its war of independence, absorbed its millions, instead of letting them languish in camps, and having lost Jerusalem in the battle for its independence, regained all the territories promised to it in the Bible, including Jerusalem. Subsequently it has consistently tried to reach any kind of peace with its neighbours. The problem is the "neighbours", they are brother against brother, and even that is predicted in the Bible. So good luck to the Quartet, the Arab League and to the Mecca Agreement. You can lay it all at their doorstep. Thank you.

Polybios, My only concern is the truth and the lawful and just rights of the Palestinian people so that this suffering can end and they can get on with their lives and be free of the military occupation on their land and illegal settlements and settlers. I appreciate your efforts to talk and to work things out. However, I just wish to remind you when you talk about facts on the ground be aware Israel was created out of facts on the ground and some- times those facts can fall like a house of cards in the face of simple truth. And in such a case the simple cannot be dismissed. Anyway thanks again, good to bounce thoughts and ideas back and forth. I am not out to give you a hard time. Dutch

After Israel departed Gaza and they held free elections the new government in Gaza inseted in schools, hospitals, economic zones to attract foreign investment, opps sorry wrong, they invested in guns, ammo, rockets to keep the war and fighting going. Now arabs kill arabs, how will they spin that to make or blame Israel for them killing each other!

This is extrememly sad. It does remind me of Nazi era Germany in its ruthlessness and absolute lack of mercy. Of course hamas is determined to root out, undermine, and be the sole power in Gaza, and if the world lets it, the West Bank. They have gone for the jugular. If you were a superior military force, spiritually more determined, of course you would be in the ascendant. I'm being a realist, not a cynic. All this to say, that ABSOLUTELY, Israel should not get involved in any humanitarian endeavour, much as that is what is needed. This should be left to the ones who have been traditionally responsible for the task. Fatah should have seen this coming long ago. Makes Arafat look like peanuts. And perhaps Sharon knew what he was doing. All the same, there is human suffering.

Howdy Steve; Pass a law which requires the placement of a large, empty window frame on the roofs and near the edge of all tall buildings in the Gaza Strip which prohibits the extrajudicial execution of prisoners unless they go through the window frame. There, defenestration statisfied.

Maybe it's only me but I recall how for years Zionists and Americans have been calling on the Palestinians to unite their security forces under one command? I can even remember how then they demanded for fair elections? So what has happened in this bizzaro world where it seems when you do as your told, you find yourself in the proverbial black hole? It's evil, pure evil disguised as politics as usual. So the masters in Zion are doing what all sinister minded folks do, they divide and conquer and create chaos. Uncle Sam was arming the Iraqi's while Israeli was arming Iran when they fought each other. We are seeing chapter 22 being played out still in Iraq. Palestinians had their fair elections but that wasn't good enough for the Masters in Zion. Now Hamas wants to unite all security forces under one command, oh no, we can't have that now. It's clear what is going on, Israeli's would rather see a Palestinian civil war in Palestine than see peace in Israel. I say no problem, just don't whine when the winds shift direction. I have no doubt, Israel has unleashed forces that it will live to regret. The economic sanctions, daily siege and all the goodies Israel gifted the Palestinians people with after they exercised their democratic rights, will in the end blowback and reach Israel.

reading.Cipora,wrong reading.Polybios,don't be so jealous of H's match making!Chanah:Hitler did not win an election.he was apointed by Hindemith to be Chancellor and afterH's death,Hitler combined posts of Ch. and president and thereafter the nazis quelled opposition and from then on their'elections' were guaranteed. Hamas on the other hand came to power by democratic means.Their long years of service among the underprivileged of P.society gave them their well deserved victory. What we are going to see now,after Hamas cleans up the gangs and hits the corrupt venal fatah to its senses is good clean government.Hamas has been so recognised by even its worst enemies.Eli is quite right in his conclusions.Polybios,sorry to disappoint you but that Palestinian Prince is a fake.There is a childish fellow around here who assumes protean forms just to throw a monkey wrench into the works.In this case, it's our forlorn query as to how many people share his views.

Can someone tell Olmert that the surgery on his eyes its over and that he can open his eyes now. Next move by the next Israeli leader, gather inteligence by the tons (from Fatah in Gaza) and have Abbas declare in the Arab world that Iranians now occupy Gazastan, and that he is asking Israel to liberate it. The rest is up to you Palestinians, to liberate your country from the hell you created. Israel's role should be and must be to protect the innocent, children and old fox.

Israel plans against god and preys on innocents, but little does it know, god also plans against it. Hamas is victorious, so is hezbollah.

"Khan Yunis is finished, but we are still holding on in [the southern town] Rafah," said Ziad Sarafandi, a senior security official. Well, Ziad, you should have said, "The Gaza Strip is finished, but we're still holding on to the West Bank." Congratulations on the heroic defense of the PA by Abbas' elite Presidential Guard and the Preventive Security Force. They really showed their stuff for the past three days (like their footprints in the sand heading towards Egypt). A couple more glorious victories like that and you'll lose the West Bank too.

Defenestration is a word that one might not hear often, but the crime of throwing people out of windows and from high places, such as roofs and balconis, is known to have been committed by totalitarian regimes, as my examples were meant to demonstrate. The Nazis committed this crime routinely, especially against children and the elderly, who could not move fast enough. The idea behind such crime is to indicate that the other is worthless, nothing more than trash being disposed of. It is not a crime of fighting men, or of those who want to kill on a large scale, but a crime imbued with psychological meaning. It is the crime of cowards, and of psychopathic persons and regimes. It is a means of dehumanising and defiling.

Finally they (fanatics) start killing each other in the large scale instead of uniting and building some play grounds for kids. They must hate each other now little more than Jews .It?s easier to kill in brotherhood than wait until another opportunity to commit crime against Israelis will be available, waiting with loaded gun gets boring and not exiting as it is now. I wonder if this will ever stop

The frightening part of this situation is that now Israel faces a totally Hamas controlled Gaza strip and the definite possibility or reality that Hamas would control Fatah. This "forced unity" would not curry to Israel's favour as the more radical forces would have demonstrated that "power comes from the barrel of a gun". That phrase coined by the King of Rebellion Mao Tse Tung almost 60 years ago. Now the terror bloc has an upper hand with total control (like they didn't before with Abbas doing nothing but ceremoniously keeping Europe happy to keep getting his 2 Billion). Israel needs to act decisively, not to acquiesce in the face of this frightening development and offer peace under duress, but to threaten serious consequences if flare ups occur. Egypt needs to step up at the border in force, and the UN needs to step in with a multinational buffer force that will use lethal force for any violations including Qassam launches.

Your absolutely correct... The corrupt traitors Fatah and all of its leadership should be brought down to thier knees... They are collaberators who have done nothing for the Palestinians except bring them agony and defeat hand in hand with Israel and the US... This is long overdue.

Praise to the other writer...Ahmed who pointed out everything there is needed to know about this drama. Over the years, Israel and the U.S. have had very bad averages supporting the wrong sides in these manipulative battles. Just a few weeks ago remember Israel "allowed" arms to be transferred from Egypt to the Fatah in the Gaza to try and do away with Hamas. This is a very critical period for Israel and the U.S. because with Hezbollah and now Hamas showing strong resilience, it's only a matter of time before Israel must negotiate everything in good faith! Stay tuned!!!

The cries of "There is nobody to negotiate with" may start ringing on listening ears rather than deaf ears. What Israel has been saying all along has nothing to do with them not being pre-emptive and returning land to the Palestinians. The crazies, Hamas, Islamic Jihad would never go away. They would always be in the underground launching assaults on the State of Israel wanting it all!!! There is no "peace", there is no Arab League proposal. The reason?? Syria, Hamas, and all the other terrorists have never subscribed or endorsed this supposed Peace initiative. What better way for them to take what they can now and cause problems later for a smaller less secure Israel. It is obvious that occupation has not given Israel security, however the issue since 1948 has never been returning the occupied territories but giving up the State of Israel. Part 2

I AM DRUNK. YOU LOVE ME, I KNOW THAT ATILLA LİMAN KARAGÖZOĞLU

with flimsy evidence. The Arabs have more staying power for their causes than the West or Israelis for that matter. In the end, good ole Saudi King will have his way. Don't celebrate till the fat lady sings, and she is presently stuck in a narrow doorway. Keep your wheels, trailer and passport handy. Something different is in the air and the US has broken an axle in the ME. Stay tuned, but don't get too excited with glee about Pals fighting. Jews fight too like everybody else, but when the chips are down, family always comes together. Keep your eyes on the King who could make a terrible mess with a wink of the eye by shutting down/off oil. You will have to return the stolen land Paul, no ifs, ands or buts. I bet you a McDonald's hamburger I and others saying that are right and you are just stuck in your age of the status quo. Have coffee. Regards. Ballistic.

Maybe it's only me but I recall how for years Zionists and Americans have been calling on the Palestinians to unite their security forces under one command? I can even remember how then they demanded for fair elections? So what has happened in this bizzaro world where it seems when you do as your told, you find yourself in the proverbial black hole? It's evil, pure evil disguised as politics as usual. So the masters in Zion are doing what all sinister minded folks do, they divide and conquer and create chaos. Uncle Sam was arming the Iraqi's while Israeli was arming Iran when they fought each other. We are seeing chapter 22 being played out still in Iraq. Palestinians had their fair elections but that wasn't good enough for the Masters in Zion. Now Hamas wants to unite all security forces under one command, oh no, we can't have that now. It's clear what is going on, Israeli's would rather see a Palestinian civil war in Palestine than see peace in Israel. I say no problem, just don't whine when the winds shift direction. I have no doubt, Israel has unleashed forces that it will live to regret. The economic sanctions, daily siege and all the goodies Israel gifted the Palestinians people with after they exercised their democratic rights, will in the end blowback and reach Israel.

Comparing Hamas to Afghanistan's Taliban is quite a stretch. Your concern for the Palestinians would've been heart warming had it been genuine. Since its inception in the mid 80's Hamas never tried to enforce Islamic rule on anyone. On the contrary, it built schools, hospitals and performed social services that the corrupt PA under Fatah ignored. While no one can deny the sacrifices of Fatah in the past, this organization was turned into big fat beaurecrats whose main concern is gathering more power and money. They have lost their souls in the process. As pan Arabism died with President Nasser, the people of the region turned into religion to unite them and comfort them. Religious movements are florishing all over the ME, not just in Palestine. The claim that turning to religion is a turn towards radicalism is baseless. These are movements that demand a change from the corrupt regimes of the Middle East. Taliban's strict policies are based on culture rather than religion.

will choose since a majority of Americans are anti-Iraq war, so that leaves out lame brains like Giuliani and his mistress turned wife and 3 marriages, pro abortion---can't carry the red states. I do think Thompson will be the Repub nominee and I would not mind seeing Biden run against him. Who knows? Because of voters antiwar stance, I am not sure the Jewish Lobby will have much effect this time around as Iraq spirals out of control? Who do you want? Regards.

Hamas running the whole show will be just like other exapmles of terrorist states. Forget any business that does not conform to radical Islamic sharia law. And all those women university students - forget it. It's only a matter of time until no music or culture will be heard from Gaza and all self expression is stopped. That an the beheadings and mutilations in the town square will certainly make the Palestinians glad they voted them into office.

A Deal With Fatah In The West Bank Declare a state there, and leave Gaza for now to sort out its issues. If the New Palestinian state does well and thrives, the Gazans will look at it in a different light. Maybe they will decide to declare a state of their own, or join the New Palestinian state. Of course by that time, Hamas will be the top dog in Gaza, they will eliminate all the other factions, and there will be once voice coming from that entity. It may just all work out.

You wrote "I hope Hamas goes to hell." Question: To what extent can you sense a change, if any, in the atitude of the Palestinian community at large, due to HAMAS's recent behavior? Can you foresee any long-term good coming out of the current quagmire? Respectfully...

Maybe Fred Thompson? He has the sensibility to think Iran and a number of others may kick their own a**es. I think they might as well.

"Witnesses reported that after the surrender, two Bakr women tried to leave the area and take a sick girl to a hospital, and were shot on the street by Hamas gunmen." My dear Dutch; Please stop with your ill-conceived drivel. You are only making a Clickfool out of yourself.

With friends like you, the Palestinians need know enemies. With Gaza turning into Hamastan, the Palestinian state is dead on arrival.

"Any time arabs fight each other, ... ALWAYS involves israel or the US`s hand." Interesting assertion, though factually wrong. Prior to Israel's existance there are many, many incidents of Muslims killing each other just fine. The Koran itself is full of attacks on other Muslims, which Mohammed claimed were "pagans, infidels". Let us not forget the deep history of Sunnis and Shias killing each other before the US was ever conceived. Recent events - massive inter-clan violence in ALL Muslim countries in the world - do you really expect us to believe that Israel/US supplies them all? How about the racist attacks of Sudanese Arabs on Sudanese Blacks and Christians? How about the racism toward African Blacks by Arabs - calling them "slaves". The emirate of Dubai was originally a land of two warring clans. One from each married, and the one clan summarily killed the entire bride's family...AT THE RECEPTION!! In the end, the only people behind Arab violence are...Arabs.

Israel has achieved independence, but could not rehabilitate the Territories. The mistake was the failed desire for a Jewish homeland. To run a country based on a religion is an invitation for failure. Jewish is not a national parameter. Or a route to sanity. Israel should be the umbrella over it Jewish and Muslim (incl. the small minority of Christians, Druze...) and it has to be secular.

Howdy Tony; You're right, the cessation of the Gaza Strip from the rest of the Palestinian Territories won't happen overnight--not as long as Hamas has a clear majority in the Palestinian Parliament. I don't think that Hamas is strong enough in the West Bank to continue the coup there, and if they try, then Abbas may be forced to counter-coup, declare martial law, and dissolve parliament. Whatever happens in the immediate, I don't see the Gaza Strip and the West Bank remaining together politically for too much longer--years perhaps but not decades. This kind of simplifies things for Israel because if anyone shoots a rocket at Israel from the Gaza Strip (or any other type of attack), then Hamas cannot duck responsibilty by hiding behind somebody else's skirt. If Hamas stays in the Gaza Strip without attacking, then Israel will probably just let them rot there.

Dutch, Showing there have been more deaths on the arab side proves my point....THERE ARE LOTS MORE ARAB TERRORISTS. You counting suicide bombers who killed themselves in those numbers? You counting terrorists stopped before committing attacks against civilains in that number?? You want a stat?? Here is a stat for you. HUNDREDS of rockets have been fired at Sderot...at a city (NOT AN ARMY BASE, BUT A TOWN WITH SCHOOLS THAT WERE HIT WITH ROCKETS! SCHOOL!!!!). 100% or rockets fired were aimed at civilians. 0% or rockets fired in retaliation from israel were fired purposely at civilians. WHAT do you think of that stat?? That one actually means something!!

Hey Tosefta, I just thought about something. What if Jeff N. is totally right, & Hamas in full control of Gaza will still be irrelevant, ignored & `suffocated` by Israel & the rest of world key decision makers. It is not like the situation, as far as Israel is concerned, will be that drastically changed. Same Qassamas & basta. Same Israeli short but determined & painful incursions & strikes on militants with no end, only frustrating Hamas. How is that for Bush/Olmert fiasco sounds to you?

Let the terrorists fight each other to the last man or women...

Polybios, My lust is only for the truth and for the lawful and just rights of the Palestinian people who were so brutally uprooted from their homes by cruel and evil Zionists gangs who roamed the countryside instill- ing fear and terror in the hearts of helpless Palestinians. Not to mention that wicked Sharon and his command unit 101 who went around tossing hand granades into the windows of sleeping villages in the Palestinian village of Quiljya-- prevented those who tried to return to their homes and land in Israel. How sinful. Yes, my hearts lust for justice for these poor creatures but I will not defend the indefensible in Israel as you are doing and I am sorry if you feel I am over simplifying the truth instead looking at the facts. Nevertheless, you would do well to remember Israel was created out of facts on the ground and isn't that the very problem in a nutshell? The Palestinian people were simply short changed? Thanks, Dutch

As messed up as it is, the only way to discredit Hamas is to allow them to take control. Yes, many people (as can be seen in this forum) will blame Israel for everything since they are racists - but this is the only way that Palestinians will understand that they have been raised on lies. Maybe then we will see a "resistance" to "the resistance".

"I hope now that Hamas will restore calm and discipline and show responsible behaviour." Oh yes, now it will be very peaceful and quiet. Like a graveyard. Now I understand why so many Dutchmen were members of the Nazi Party there.

Hi Frank . You forgot one State, the perpetual "State" of denial that many Israelis are in, about where this will all end up.The idea that they can carve up their problems into states or ship them over the border or hide them behind a wall. What a rude awaking is coming to Israel. Perhaps not this generation but certainly their kids. What an inheritance they have coming. All this,just to satisfy a bunch of greedy Illegal settlers. Sad,

Israel never had any intention of permitting a Palestinian state to come into existence. The Israelis are too busy stealing Palestinian land on the West Bank, the status quo suits Israel too well. Israel nutured Hamas, in it's early days as a counterweight to Fatah. So now you've gotten what you hoped for Palestinian civil war. This is but a temporary setback for people who want justice in Palestine. These divisions can and will be healed up to unite the Palestinians against the tyranny of occupation. There's ,thankfully, a good number of Israelis who are actively orking against the occupation. There will be a two state solution or no peace will ever dawn in the Holy land.

Dutch, There were a lot more palestinian deaths than Israeli deaths. Yes. That is true. Do you know WHY that is? First of all, how many of those paleintinian deaths came from trying to committ terrorrist attacks or were terrorists killed while trying to fire rockets at children school??? How many of those were terrorists who started firing at the IDF while they were trying to clean up terrorism that the PA has long ignored?? How many of those were terrorists trying to plant bombs?? What do you want? You want more israeli deaths?? OF COURSE THERE WERE MORE ARAB DEATHS....THERE ARE MORE ARAB TERRORIRSTS!!! Your statistics are juvenile, totally irrational, and pathetic at best.

Tax dollars kept by Israel is not what has kept Palestinians going, it certainly is not enough to "run" Gaza. Gaza has been run for years on Aid and donations, UN Aid, most of which comes from the West and hardly any comes from Arab countries. Give Hamas time and they will become just as corrupt, if you start ruling by killing your opposition, well, what is next? Definitely not a democratic country but that I guess is a western idea and not Arab. You can't keep blaming Israel all the time, you can show them - make Gaza a model country, free religion, with a free prosperous educated people who love and enjoy their life. Don't ask for any donations to do it too, be creative, create investment and business. At the moment you look like many countries in Africa, corrupt, gun-slinging, clan and tribal fighting, unsafe and fearful to live in.

That should show what racists you are - blaming everything on the Jews as usual.

...It is interesting how Bush keeps working his wonders... Not working his wonders, but screwing things all around, jerking thing back & forth, destroying everything that was INITIALLY THE CORRECT move, decision, planned or necessitated interference. In the process jerking his puppet shyster in Israel, who in turn had destroyed the bridge of mutual respect & understanding that Sharon had built & perfected. In the end, I really do not care what kind of right or wrong PC, goal oriented or any moves they are going to make, as long as the radical Islam is methodically opposed to & relatively controlled everywhere, including Iranian nukes. I will only criticize them if this is not the case.

will prove as false coining. Wait this year and the next and then looking back you won't understand your own ideas any longer. A cultural clash has started and we are witnessing the first lightnings and thunders only. Hasn't the ritual murder of van Gogh set the fanal for Europe? It is the first time somebody had been killed for his opinion after Adolf (MEPRUH). And it was a Muslim doing it in religious intention.

of E. Pakistan and W. Pakistan that split into two states, Pakistan and Bangladesh? Now we see it happenng here.

THERE ARE HOLES EVERYWHERE DORIS IN THE DAM ,YOUR STREAM OF B//S THAT YOU HAVE BEEN PUMPING OUT FOR YEARS HAS BREACHED !. I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES YOULL LOSE YOUR SHIRT BACKING ARABS !!

No, it's Lakshmi and Doris, the armchair jihad sisters!

"Abbas and Haniyeh issued a joint statement after nightfall, calling on all sides to halt fighting, and to return to the language of dialogue and respect of agreements." When they learn this language, let me know.

YOU DONT LISTEN DO YOU !!!! YOU AND YOUR ANTI SEMITIC COMRADES HAVE EGG ALL OVER THEIR FACES !! THER ARABS HAVE DROPPED THEM IN THE PROVERBIAL !!

Who do you think the Jewish lobby will chose as the next president of the US? Thanks

Ending the idiotic terrorism labeleritis etc. Like it or not, you have a common future or none. Bushels are far, far away and are not very helpfull when it comes to the essential things. Make a big party, a football game of MPs Israel vs. Iran etc, could be a nice picture, Peres etc sitting like Roman emperors in the Colloseum.

It's so nice that the evil Zionist occupation tool, Haaretz, provided a forum for Lakshmi and Dutch to find each other. Mazal Tov. Another match courtesy of the Israeli committment to free speech, which they are so reticent to admit exists.

Voted in Hamas, Hamas shows how undemocratic it can be, no democracy kills it's opposition. A sad state of palestinian affairs.

Defenestration actually means thrown from a window. Defenestration is the act of throwing someone or something out of a window. The word comes from the Latin de (from; out of) and fenestra (window). Throwing someone from a roof would be something like 'detectation'. I'll leave it to the Latin scholars here to give the final word on this.

hamas wants to take control reminds me of the 1980 how the poor people in gaza where getting tortured by there own people so my question who is occuping who ? and in the end israel will be blamed gaza needs israel now stop with your pride and ask us for help and we will take care of hamas and hezballa u need us now more than ever for the innocent people of gaza my heart is with you

you give Maureen too much credit. She will return, as did Hanna who speaks only of blood and death. She swore not to return as well. Where else can these sick people vent without being institutionalized?

"It is good. 12000 US-made rifles have been confiscated by Hamas" I wouldnt speak so soon. Eventually, everyone in "palestine' will be wearing Burqas if Hamas gets their way

You had mentioned last week that you and Yaakov were going to attend the gay rights parade in jerusalem this year.I applaud your courage, have a good one! Regards Danite

Soem comedian wrote that '47.2 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.' Seems to apply to you pretty well. In another thread you wrote that Israel was killing (or had killed) "millions" of Palestinians. Plenty of other posters called you on it. Now you're backtracking? I suppose that's progress. Still, please cite even one responsible source for the absurd numbers you quote; ie - that Israel killed hundreds of thousands of PALS since Oslo (1993). (And where are all those bodies buried?) Maybe it just seems that way to you, insulated from the truth by Indonesia's anti-Israel institutions and Press? Anyway, in case you haven't noticed, right now the number one killer of Palestinians is other Palestinians. Peace.

No need for glee either as it will not make one whit of difference to you. Keep that trailer hitch on with its wheels and your passport to make moving easier. You will see the promised land, my friend. In the meantime, have coffee. Regards.

Gaza, Palestinian West Bank Territories & Israel That solves a problem doesn't it??

"Hundreds of thousands Palestinians were killed since Oslo due to Fatah hey desrve to be eliminated!" Have you attended basic math and spelling lessons?

Shimon, Your propaganda is an insult to the simple intelligence of common people. Yes, Hamas members are no angels and neither are the Israeli Army soldiers but to go around proclaiming all Hamas believes " is murder and terrorism" is pure nonsense and it doesn't even reflect the reality on the ground or the vital statistics. During the last 4-5 years of the conflict the Israeli forces showed a 4:1 ratio death toll over Palestinian death toll and even the latest statistics for 2006 from Amnesty International show that while 27 Israeli were killed in 2006 that was only chicken feed in comparison to the slaughter of Palestinians by the IIDF & IAF. If any group cared little about the lives of children it is the Israeli forces as they killed 120 children out of the 650 victims and many of those were on their way to or from school, some were even sitting at their desks and others were chasing a soccer ball or one another. Some moral army the IDF & IAF has shown itself to be. Dut

No wonder you love being the spokesman of Hamas -- all those civilians and medics shot up with bullet holes ... much better than Hamas pretending to be human beings, renouncing terror, and negotiating for a country, right?

The pals are doing a huge favor for the free world. By killing themselves, hopefully when the dust settles there will not be many left. Trust me when I say the world is much better off without that trash in it. Keep it up Pals, kill as many of each other as you can. Please....

You are one of the few here who has theorized the three state solution with consistency on talkback, envisioning the secular West Bank. Well done. Have you read Dennis Ross recent remarks? jewishworldreview. com/0607/gordon061107.php3

Howdy Firebird; Even though Hamas is the elected government of the PA, its militant wing is an extra-governmental armed force. The PA's armed forces are about six different security forces some of which answer to the Office of the Chairman and some to the Ministry of the Interior. You're right though, "conquest" is too strong a word--"coup" would be better.

this message is for the israelis to ask them a favour " don't leave us alone to be controlled by a Hamas nazi regime, i call on Ehud Olmert not to leave us alone." i think people started to be aware of the real situation, people became very hopeless because of Hamas green areas.

As I told you before, I'm not interested in 'bad mouthing' the Arabs. But telling the truth includes pointing out the bad as well as the good. For me, history did not begin with the Crusades. Or 1948. Mentioning the attack on the UNRWA school girls, or the rooftop and hospital murders, or the destruction of the Gaza synagogues, or the lack of women's rights, or UNDHR rights in most Aranb countries, counts as 'bad mouthing.' "Bad mouthing" is your game. I state facts. You ignore them. And what "occupation" are you talking about? 1948 or 1967? Either way, it's regrettable. Deplorable. But without the 1947 rejection of the partition plan; without the three NO's of Khartoum; there would have been no occupation. And without walls and checkpoints, suicide bombers would blow up more nightclubs and pizza parlors. And HANBAL is not the Carthaginian general Hannibal, but Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Maybe find out who he was, and how his extreme bigotry helped bring all this about.

All Jews, Muslims and Christians pray for the innocent people in Gaza tonight, suffering under this siege.

Like many, I pray and hope for peace in Isreal and Palestinian territories every day. But what is the answer? It is clear that Abbas has little to no control over his own people and that Hamas is a creature growing in strength and numbers. Radicalism and hatred must be stopped, but how? Gunmen fire on peaceful protesters and squalor conditions in Palestinian territories breeds hate. Above that, no one is willing to give aid to an organization or an area controlled by an organization that concerns itself with the destruction of Isreal. Palestinians need solidarity and a reason and hope for peace. I believe this cannot happen with the poverty, lack of basic conditions, and lack of education that exists now. It is clear the west will not get involved in improving this(especially with a Hamas controlled state or attacks on Isreal by the PLO).A leader must come forth who can inspire and create hope for peace for the Palestinian people and do so at the ground level. This is my hope for peace

HOW DOES CROW TASTE ERIC ?? YOUR PROTEGES ARE MURDERING EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF JEWS!

Ahmed #68 - It would seem that a little Middle Eastern education is in order - the war between Iran and Iraq was not a war between Arabs. We Iranians are not arabs (and gladly so!) Basir

Yes, Pakistan and Bangladesh split. It happened because some hot headed generals [khans] and one power-hungry politician [bhutto] violated democratic principles upon their defeat. It was never the 'separation' in miles. What if Bhutto conceded defeat and let Mujib run his course as the prime minister? What if Fatah conceded defeat and let Hamas run its course in the govt? Where there is democracy, there is always a second chance! Palestinians showed their democratic spirit when they elected Hamas. It is the US/Israel/Fatah hegemony that made a mockery of the elections. Together the generals and the politican in Pakistan reneged on the election results that elected Mujib as the PM and started a civil war instead. This shameful history of desecration of democratic principles repeated itself in WB and Gaza.

Yes, it does ring a bell, it reminds me of Fatah complicit Israel and helping it to eliminate the Palestinian people. Hundreds of thousands Palestinians were killed since Oslo due to Fatah hey desrve to be eliminated!

It is interesting how Bush keeps working his wonders. First he overthrows Saddam, generates a civil war, and now he is arming the SUNNIS (Saddamists) in Anbar so they can fight off the foreign al-Qaida. Once the US is out of the country the weapons will be used to fight the Shiites, who were expected to be the beneficiaries of the invasion. Using the same logic, Olmert can arm Hamas to fight off (in Gaza) the smaller groups as well as al-Qaida. Later when the PA becomes an independent state they will be able to fight the Fatah forces. I think if Israel gives Hamas arms, they WILL eliminate all the smaller groups. Why not?

regarding your last line: they are busy condemning both fatah and hamas as this article states; so typical of you and your kindred, with your paranoid fixation, to tune that part out. funny thing is that with your comment, you bring focus to their objectivity; ie: their accusations against israel are legit. in regards to gaza: hamas is sharon's demon-child. he breathed life into, nurtured it, and gave it strength with his complete hatred for arafat and his undermining and demolition of the palestinian infrastructure. the old man knew what he doing, but with him out of the picture; there's no one to carry through his devious plan; leaving israel with an open sore on its flank.

I'm assuming you are from India or are of Indian-descent. The "so-called" Israeli aggression is nothing compared to the way uppercaste Indians treat the Dalits. the Dalits are modern day slaves in India subject to the whims and fancies of upper caste Indians. By reason of caste by birth and skin color they are forced to take menial occupations, treated worse than animals, and are given little or no opportunity for advancement. In some areas of India, some upper castes feel that even the shadow of a Dalit will make them unclean. At least the Pals have to wealthy Arab states to fund their cause. You pick on Israel over its treatment of Pals. India should be subject to the same scorn and derision over its treatment of the Dalits. At least the Pals can fight back; uppercaste India has its foot firmly on the necks of Dalits.

Only it's the first time in history where the democratically electected government has to overthrow the previous democratically elected government by force. Israelis are acting like fools - they arm Fatah and demand that they attack Hammas, and when Hammas wins they complain that it's a coup d'etat.

One mother was better? The children are the same.

I guess you are not concerned with the viability of Jews and their promised Homeland then. Of course you realize that Hamas wants to destroy Israel...but hey they are only Jews...Why not empower the Islamafacists...because the Jews will be eliminated... Think that these islamafascists will stop there? Wrong...Take a look around the world..They believe that anyone who is not a muslim is a dhimmi - to be ruled over. http://www.dhimmitude.org/

Dahlan is a thug, a quisling and traitor. His gangs are being defeated. They have fled like a bunch of nothing. Remember, this is not war between Hamas and Fatah. This is a showdown between the Palestinian people and the American-financed and American-armed quislings. It is good. 12000 US-made rifles have been confiscated by Hamas.

...are there parachutes for camels...?

There is nothing to be astonished by the recent events unfolding. Arafat was undermined, so was Abbas, Fatah was clumsily 'rearmed' to fight Hamas (leaving it open to accusation of corruption and colaboration) plus the severe economic boycott (by the US and the EU)of Hamas and in reality the entire Gazan population which lost a great part of its infrastructure , compliments of the IDF. All this is a noxious brew. There is no reversal of the course. Israel and the US are watching at the sidelines while it is all being played out as they knew it would, delusionally hoping to reap the 'benefits' from the carnage and destruction.

Wait till the Israeli left gives the Palestinians more Jewish land. The left will create more terrorism in Israel by their surrender policy. They must be stopped.

here's one which will also be my reply to his post to me and to you 174.As per usual he speaks about the virtues of the state of israel.An Israeli Arab in one of these posts clarified the situation of the Arabs inIsrael.In 174 he forgets to mention that the early zionists forbade even employing Palestinians.Never mind sale of land.They had already taken over most of it.At first by 'purchase' from absentee Turkish landlords and then open looting.To fast forward:he still avoids the subject of the Occupation.And continues to bad mouth the Arabs as and when he can.Ahmed was merely the occasion. Well,if you do notice his pious posts,you will be replying.Meanwhile,keep blogging.Regards.

Hey Dutch(Doris) I thought you were going to offer yourself up as a human shield by going over there. We are all still waiting: I guess your biggest problem is deciding which of your peace-loving buddies you're going to choose to put a bullet up your ass.

This is an internal conflict..Hamas wants to rule the PA...plain and simple.... It is up to the residents of Gaza to sort this all out.

Anyone can make a statement....Both Hamas and Fatah want to destroy Israel....Israel does not want to get involved in their conflict...Israel wants a peaceful neighbor... Your comments make absolutely no sense.

Did anyone really think that a viable state could have been set up with Gaza and the West Bank separated. Sounds like Pakistan and Bangladesh. It just did not seem to be ever practical. Only as a fantasy of some.

It doesnt matter that they believe in anything if what they believe in is never making peace, and fighting by firing rockets at school and children in israel instead. How is that better exactlty??? Oh! thats right, as long as its innocent jewish lives being lost, you are ok.

in action.And the world should respect the free choises people make when they vote,and democraticly ellect Hammas, Fatah and other liberal, humanist parties to lead them to progress,AS THEY DO RIGHT NOW.

Hello Jeff, I can see your point but not 100% behind it. It is not like Hamas will take over Gaza & suddenly there are two separate entities for Israel to deal with. The WB has to be cleaned of Hamas elements We are to assume the overwhelming majority in WB basically overnight will come to understand & reside to the Israeli peaceful usefulness trumping `resistance` to her. Word wide blind, appeasers, malicious Israeli bashers, including goal oriented, decision making political shysters & weaklings will probably simply ignore ugly, radical Gaza & will continue to convince everyone & themselves on the `legitimate` two state solution around the corner, if only that bad wolf Israel, you know the rest. In the mean time, the confrontation with Hamas in Gaza will become inevitable, the question is now or later when they are stronger, replenished, rearmed & more prepared.

The ME is awash in irresponsible criminals who use their people as canon fodder on their cult altars of their delusions and the worst part is their peoples happily throw themselves to the Moloch god of dementia.Here we have Olmert who believes the worse things get the better he will be able to corral the west into supporting the "Olmert plan" imposed on the Pals.To this end he refuses to negotiate with abbas as a way to destroy him and so the PA and so put Hamas in charge.Hamas plays their role as an islamic movement first and a nationist movement second, they need to keep the war open ended their eternal vehicle for internal power which is their true goal.They know they cant destroy israel, but the ongoing war helps then create an islamic republic in Palestine.Do some of you begin to see how the Middle east is for losers??

Dutch, you wrote "How can anyone look at this horrible infighting and violence without seeing Israel`s finger prints and foot prints all over the place?". Then, you predict the disappearance of Israel (your nickname is well choosen for such assumption). Before 1947, Jews began to build the structures of their lost country. That's why they have been ready for accepting the UN resolution of November 29th 1947 and able to proclaim their novel state in 1948. The Autonomy in some territories created by Oslo in 1993 has been nothing else that the invitation for the Palestinians to construct such structures to be implemented in their futur state. The Palestinians preferred to use this Autonomy and these territories as a refuge for terrorists. The details are well known. Dutch, everybody can predict that in few decades petrol will be over. Then, the interest of the world will be no more focused on the Palestinians and they could only cry on all the occasions they lost.

Look how quickly the PA areas have descended into anarchy after the withdrawal of the so-called "aggressive, repressive, occupational Israeli troops. You Pals must miss the Israelis now; you can't even go out into the streets to without witnessing a Hamas-Fatah gunfight! And the world thinks that the Israelis are oppressors. The Pals oppress themselves and act like animals in the process. A Pal state will be a frightening failed state.

Try this one - the Middle east is a beehive and Bush is a little kid with a stick who without regard for the consequences whacks it open with silly glee just to see what will spill out. Say what you will about Bush, he has put the neo-con theory that democracy and its inate "goodness" as a force for positive change to the test. Ahmahdinejad and Hamas were elected, next the Muslim Brotherhood? But if power does ultimately corrupt will Islam reform from within? Tosefta - I think Junta member is correct that we make the reality but others are also participants and not just students. Mark - window/roof is a silly semantic game - lets just call it the "pancake" method and unlike Cipora I hear the word "deepenetration" all the time.

Too much for you and your primitive tribe??? I think, you will get choked on it.

Do the Palestinians have any reponsibility for their actions at all?? Its funny to me how americans will blame external factors for the failings of people far away , but when the poor of your own country ask for help they are calumnied as losers and weaklings and "its their own fault".Oh but I forgot this is no doubt just like Poland Aug31 1939 right?

I am here. if you want politic, I am damn Politic. Honesty you want ! here I am. YOU CANT EVEN REACH ME IN YOUR DREAMS. GO ON. love Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

Only usueful idiots -that is 80 % of the world's population- are confused by Hamas' use of the term "Occupation". People in power, either in Europe, the Middle East, the U.S. know exactly that they mean Israel as a whole. So who exactly will be enlightened by Hamas' "real" face now? This is a Putsch after a democratic win, just like the Nazis. Their tactics and fanaticism are the same; their brutality and sistematic planning are the same, their antisemitism is the same. Hamas only differs in that it sends its own people to die just to kill Jews. Every reasonable person knows that since 1996 or since 1987. The worst blind one is the one who doesn't want to see.

Its a sad day when fanatics, thugs and brutality triumphed over the hopes of Palestinian people for a modern democratic state. Gaza will lose all professionals as they have been when they move to other parts of the world, taking with them all hope. Hamasastan, as it will be known will be a training ground for Iranian-inspired Islamofascists from Lebanon, Iraq and other places, destabilizing the entire region. Israel will have no choice but to go in to clean up this mess. Already many Palestinians and Arabs are seeing this as inevitable. I pity the people of Gaza - they've become the new Afghanistan during Taliban tyranny.

Yes thank you the trip went very well actually.Why am I an extremist like you gabe?? I can favour a two state solution and not take their crap at the same time why does that make me an extremist?? Hope you are well.

Well first of all its wrong whe we talk about these poor people like they are not humans like us! secondly give Isreal a break for you blaming Her for whatever happens to any Arabs in ME will you own up?Thirdly let there be a will for peace loving Palis to go to West bank or Isreal and settle there raise their children, teaching then to love and treasure human life may be the radicals will feel jaelous and join in. Lastly May God the Almaighty save this world of crazy fanatics and there be peace in ME. Shalom and Salaam to all.

This will be a fight to the finish between Hamas and Fatah, and as is usually the case the most determined and Vicious side will emerge victorious, which will be of course, Hamas. Then, there will have to be another fight to the finish, this time between Hamas and Israel and I need not tell you which side will have to be more determined and vicious in order to come out victorious.

Fateh like all other new nations, encompassed the birth pangs that new nations incur. However, it is Hamas that crossed the line by murdering their Palestinian brethren. Sure, Arafat would jail them, and now everyone can see why. Shooting at protesters, innocent civilians? I'm not a religious guy by any means, but if that's allowed in the Quran, then I'm an athiest. I hope Hamas goes to hell.

Iran was certainly not going to loose her two precious attack dogs, Hamas or Hezbollah, so Hamas had to make the Iranian ordered first move here. They are forcing the world to go though them (& Iranian adherance) like it or not. But here is where the similarities with `Bush/Olmert dared not to respect Hamas disaster follies` of our usual nutcases or illusionists end. It was inevitable since Hamas rise in the strip, & its rise was inevitable since Hamas had played & sold to the Pal masses the key song of `liberating` Gaza & going all the way, at the time when the spirit & the urge to `resist` Israel was overcoming everything, including Abbas who was dealt the role of meek & week opposition to `resistance`. Therefore the absolute key now is the `day after` response. Especially by Israel & US, because I know what the response of all EU appeasers will be.

Alicia, I agree with you that the situation is extremely dire with Iran handling matters in Hamastan, right next to Israel. But be sure, Israel won't be "gone". Israel is here to stay. It's not a wishful thinking, it's both the supreme swearing of the Jewish people: "Never again a Holocaust". That's why Israel is prepared even for doomsday situations, and knows what to do, when, where and how. The situation is totally malleable at this point, with too many factors spinning and swirling simultaneously to make a reasonable assessment, even an adventurous one. best, Claudia.

Unfortunatly it seems like you are quite right... Unfortunatly, that also means that the Gazans will not have peace in the near future. the hardcore extreme islamists victory, will mean that Israel hardly will deal with the Gazans except by shells from above. Unfortunatly, you can hardly blame them either, as Hamas hardly will be interested in anything but a short Hudna. The only solution I personaly see, if one wants to save Gaza civilians from this senceless bloodbath, is to flood the strip with UN forces wih a mandate to fight if needed. Earlier Un forces have been troubled by a "mickey Mouse" mandate, so lets hope the people in that building in NY realises that UN personel needs a mandate to protect people ( look at former Jugosalvia, and the Hell in Darfur. ) What is your opinion?

You seem to have missed the analogy between Shakespeare's quote in Hamlet "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" and "Something is rotten inside Fatah". That was the intention of the quote.

1.Jerry, israle converted gaza into an open air prison,with control of air,exits, even a registry of who comes and goes,controls the economy ,the water resources. . . 2.Eli, Amen.Good perception.All's well that ends well. 3.Dutch, thanks for the quote from the israeli attorney general.I guess this is the same one who pronounced on the illegality of the settlements. 4.Mark L- dream and reality,that's exactly the problem.Good quote from the Bush Junta.

Atilla: I cry everyday of my life over the Armenian Genocide and I cry for the Jewish genocide. There are still many poor and starving people in Israel. Cry for them. Better yet shed real tears for the Armenians, not crocodile tears. I am supporting Armenian children through World Vision, the evangelical Christians and I am Jewish. Your dear Islamic fundamentalists, barberians, forced them to march into the Syrian desert until they starved to death. Go on the website to see their starving bodies, their bones left in the desert, their heads chopped off. Horrible victims of genocide. Pals are getting millions of dollars from the world. Why cry for Pals. I am waiting for any of you Turks to come to this website and cry for Armenia. I am Jewish with Armenian relatives. I am giving money to children who live on potatos and water in Armenia and Israel. What do you eat Atilla, caviar and champagne? I will never stop crying for the Armenians because I love them.

Civil wars happen, What do you think led to the slaves emancipation here in the States?

If, G-d forbid, there were no Israel, Palestine, Hamasistan, AlQaidistan, or whatever, would be in war and Jerusalem in the center of the hurricane. Conflict is in the history of this region. The strangest thing of all is that religiosity is in the center of the conflicts of the region. The only way out to this conflict is by means of religion, and religious leaders taking responsibility to promote Peace instead of War. Whoever sees this as a secular conflict over land is totally missing the point. The reason the Jews are in Israel is definitely not random. Israel's worst enemies recognize this fact, and their main fear is that a Jewish state succeeds in the Middle East. The sad thing is that the religious leaders of our times are not up to the task and are giving a very very bad name to religion when inciting hatred.

It this time for Israel to help Fatah and Abbas, to take over Gaza and give it to the Palestinian Authorities, Abbas and Fatah. Abilish all armed militias. The Hamas authority itsn't a real internationaly reconozed government. Their election are local elections. This is the last chance for the Palestinians and Israel to work ou a two state deal.

Sorry Mr Dalmy, palestinians have no more excuses ... israel occupation now doesn't matter. they are fighting between themself , brother against brother, this is unreal. You have to admit that palestinian future now is in Iranian hands. Iranians hands = terrorism and brutality + occupation Palestinians are preparing for a new occupation not done by israel anymore but iranian. i hope palestinians can take our power back but now is very difficult.

Interesting use of the word "conquest" when you consider that Hamas is the elected government...just not the government Israel and the U.S. wanted to be elected. Your bias is showing.

In your lust for oversimplification, the details escape you. You wrote of Israel having no future in the global economy; but Tel Aviv was just named one of the world's 50 leading financial centers. It must suck when reality slaughters your sacred cows, but you're doing a heck of a job trying not to notice. You dare mention the UNDHR? Stop generalizing and talk specifics. Israel doesn't live up to the standard of equality for all expressed in #1? You try implementing equality with folks who want to kill you. The PA routinely violates the UNDHR. Try #18, freedom of religion and freedom to change religions. Not compatible with the PA law making it a death penalty offense to sell land to a Jew. Not compatible with destroying synagogues. But mosques in ISRAEL are protected by law. Women's rights? Israel opened a center in Be'er Sheva to defend BEDUOIN women's rights, under the leadership of an Arab-Israeli lawyer. The PA? shot up a school in Gaza for letting girls play sports.

"I hope that at the last minute Bush gets some sense, or perhaps somebody explains this to him, and Hamas is told that they should leave Abbas forces in Gaza in return for lifting the economic siege. Sounds like a dream." - Tosefta Bush and his gang are like ancient lotus eaters, who's dreams were their reality. ""in what we call the reality-based community, who believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality. That's not the way the world really works anymore, we're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do." -Bush Junta member to Ron Suskind, Oct. 2004

By comparison to all Islamic societies, Israel has an enlightened and inclusive human rights regime and record. Not perfect but in the real world very enlightened. Your just uttering the empty headed propoganda of the PALS and their friends. So laugh all you want! Turn the world on its head. But it won't change the facts that Arabs in Israel are judges, police, members of Parliament, priviledged businessmen etc. Yes, on the whole they are underpriviledged but so are other sectors of Israeli society, Jewish sectors. As to brutality and walls, that is what was imposed on the Israelies. The wall is no doubt incredibly inconvenient and disruptive for the PALS but that is what you get when you send suicide bombers (which the PALS continue to send out) to pizza joints. And brutality is what you get when you send suicide bombers and rockets into civilian populations. Just think back to PAL life before the first intifadah. That is the fateful decision that has led to today's sad reality.

"But Olmert and Bush did not know where to stop." - Tosefta They have what they wanted, a Palestinian civil war, what they did not consider was who would win. "No peace negotiations as long as the Hamas government is in power." - Tosefta Before that, it was no peace negotiations at all. "They encouraged Abbas to keep undermining the Hamas government, and finally we see what is happening now." - Tosefta It seemed like a good impulse at the time. It is always the same with Bush and Olmert, act on impulse. They never consider the situation, only their personal emotions. They never consider what others might do, just what they wish to fantasize others will do. They are too immature and irrational to be trusted with power. They are both beyond any reason.

Contrary to what you may be puffing and huffing about, Hamas has no intention of relinquishing power to anyone and that power sharing Mecca deal is just a farce and nothing else. Ya Habibi we have the mirror image of the Ayatollas of Iran on our door step and Al-Qaida is not far behind. But you were telling us all along that Hamas was moderating. Well Ya Habibi the opposite is what is actually happening. No amount of help to Abbas would make one iota worth of difference as he and his movement are one pea in a pod. He just smiles and lies more. You just lie and don’t even bother to smile. The solution, and I hope all of the so called Israel lovers and my brethren are listening.: You let them bleed until there is a river and do pinpoint leader eliminations not to help Fatah but to show both that we are not patsies. Anyone that thinks of negotiations with the smiling guy in a suit is a demented freakish idiot and nothing else .Anyone who thinks that land abandonments and expulsions work ,better think again. Look at Gaza and Sderot and look at Fatah and Hamas. This is a clan based society whatever you call them and they just like Iraq will never become a Nation. AND Hamas is not moderating!!!!!!!!!

accept or not ! soon or later !! bad guys will lose, good guys will win !!! *** Before I heard about Pelestinians, I HEARD ABOUT HOLOCAUST. That means My Heart did cry for the people of Israel. AND NOW ! MY DEAR ISRAEL (jUST THE POWER OF ISREAL, NOT THE PEOPLE ALL) TRYING TO MAKE PALESTININAS TO REMOVE, TO DESTROY, TO THROW INTO HISTORY,... IN 200 YEARS NO ONE WILL REMEMBER THERE WERE PALISTINIANS. I AM SAYING NO FOR ISRAEL OCCUPATION. I AM SAYING NO FOR THE SPECIAL GENOCIDE. *** YESTERDAY I WAS WITH THE JEWS. TODAY THEY DONT NEED ANY HELP. TODAY, I AM SUPPORTING PALISTINIANS STOLEN RIGHTS. FREEDOM FOR THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE. love Atilla Liman Karagözoğlu

"In a bid to escape the onslaught, Fatah gunmen detonated an explosive device along the Philadelphi route near the Gaza-Egypt border, and fled into Egypt." Hamas fighters actually believe in something. The bent men of Fatah believe in nothing other than holding on to their corrupt little earners and saving their skins. They'll surrender in droves to every Hamas attack.

You've got it backwards. Its obvious that the piecemeal hudna you and others advocate ("then we'll chat," as you put it) has as its only end the end of the Jewish state. The majority of Israelis are only a generation or two from Arab countries and know full well what dhimmitude you would force them to. News flash: They will never willingly return to it. The only real alternative to countless deaths is to solve everything, all at the same time. In other words, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Everything else is just a waste of time.

Howdy Tosefta; You said, "If Hamas takes control over Gaza, there will be no choice for Israel but to go in and take over." Hamas has already seized control of the Gaza Strip except for some PA security forces' installations which are surrounded and under siege. Why would there be no choice for Israel but to go in and take over? As long as there are no attacks on Israel from Qassams or attempted incursions, Israel will do nothing to interfere with the Palestinians' internal power struggle. It looks like the Gaza Strip will break away from the PA and form its own government independent of the West Bank. That would be OK because Israel could then deal with the Gaza Strip and the West Bank separately instead of together.

put words in people's mouths. I did not write "near perfect Israeli democracy." If you were capable of having a rational discussion, we could discuss Israel's many flaws. But only in the proper context of its neighboring Arab countries' even-greater ones. Meanwhile, every single detail I wrote to Lakshmi is true. Your usual BS to the contrary notwithstanding.

"The Palestinians have no future, as since 1948 they constantly chose to live in the past, and they continue to regress." Murray in Montreal, LOL, the only people regressing today are the Israelis with their choseness, settlements, walls, brutality and near im- perfect democracy. They can't seem to even make it to the 20th century's accept- ance that all people are equal. (article #1 in the Declaration of Human Rights). They are the ones who may not have a future in the ME and indeed in the global economy. How can you trade with people who don't have a sense of common cents? Dutch

Most of you people sound like Borat, only it is scary because it is not a joke. Blaming Israel because HAMAS subhumans not only killed a Fatah rep, but also killed 3 unarmed women in his house?? Why is Israel responsible for HAMAS gunmen shooting at at a group of civilans attempting to peacefully protest the infighting??? Are the Jews responsible for the extinction of the Dinosaurs too? The Jews were blamed for the black plague in the Middle Ages too, so we should be used to it by now. And instead of blaming the embargo against the Pal government, remember that the embargo exists because HAMAS refuses to abandon terrorism. (and everyone with half a brain realizes HAMAS would rather spend their money killing Jews than feeding and caring for Palestinian civilians) Giving up terrorism=end of embargo. Also keep in mind after the '67 war, Israel wanted to give up pretty much all the territories it rightfully gained in exchage for peace, but instead got the 3 Nos.

"On Wednesday afternoon, Hamas forces entered the area and led hundreds of men, women and children, their hands raised behind their heads, to a nearby mosque, said local resident, Nael Ghoben." What an image! What are the odds that we will see it tonight on the BBC, with a vague suggestion that those holding the weapons are Israelis. After all, this is what Israel would like to do, right? And that's what counts.

Killing UN workers. Killing Palestinian medical staff Firing at hospitals and ambulances Just more steps advancing the Palestinian state

Let's aid them get to Gaza right now. All of them from Judea. The more the merrier. It's better for us if they are in Gaza instead of Judea. Without them free in Judea we might have peace, there will never be any from Gaza but we can shell it until they either stop or run out of people. It's a win-win situation for us.

Ahmed, Take no offense--everyone is the problem in Israel except the Israelis. These near perfect people can't even balance the scales of justice--that's how one sided they are. They will never be any light unto and nation (I predict they won't have one soon) until they give up their choseness and ealizing God left no special instructions for them except he would uproot them if they didn't listen to his word. (Duet. 28 : 15-67). I believe that's on the way again. Indeed, I would argue they are better off being wondering Jews, anyway. There is less prone to tribalism and less in- cline to bully and bash their neighbors.That's more nomal. Dutch

extremists. Hamas has shown you how ,just be ruthless and get things overwith in just a couple of days. Better than long term conflict and no clear winner. The ordinary people will suffer more. So the next time you face Hamas forget about what the damn world think and get the job done and over as soon as possible!!!!! Is better for every body!!!!!

At least there will be one authority in the strip. They will no longer be able to blame "splinter" groups for their crimes against Israel. They have played the game long enough. Also, they will have to provide for the populance. They took on the responsibility. Let's see how they act and how it all unfolds.

in the short run.

But Hamas has just as much "thuggery" as Fatah, if not more.

Lakshmi, You must recognize Polybios old Israeli BS how the Israelis are so tolerant but not yet perfect. Yet he fails to acknowledge Israel's atrocious system of inequality in the Palestinian territories. Please note what the fine and moral attorney General of Israel had to say about this appalling system: "We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring inter- national treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day". (http://www.seruv.org.il/english/article.asp?msgid=77&type=article) Dutch

Hi!! This all reminds me of an argument I had with a friend a couple of years ago. I was speaking to him about Israel's total withdrawal from Gaza. I said that now they can't complain about an occupation in Gaza. He responded "Oh yes they can and they will. Even if Israel withdraws, they will still complain of an occupation in Gaza. Well he was right!! The only time Israel has been in Gaza has been to respond to the Qassam missiles that are lobbed their way. No missiles, no Israeli counterattacks. What do you expect?? Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, but that is fine with you, isn't it!!!!!!

It seems you share my openion. I hope to see a clean articulate third way.

Only to the blind and dumb.

Go back in time, just before the first intifadah and you will see that PAL life was improving by leaps and bounds, their economy and their freedome. There was no wall and they were increasingly living normally. Offers were made for a two state solution, an offer that should at least have been grabbed as a basis for negotiation. But the PALS wanted it all. No negotiation. Like the triple no in 1967 when Israel offered to withdraw for a genuine peace. Instead they got a purposeful campaign of murderous violence. And when they withdraw from Gaza, instead of Hamas encouraging the Israelies to do the same in the east, Israel got a campaign of murderous violence. So, no, this does not have Israel's finger and foot prints all over it. This has the prints of the PALs. Its simply the same murderous violence only pointed inwardly. Congratulations Dutch. Your champions are excellent at murderous violence.

withdraw WestBank.I said this months ago,ISRAEL would have a terrorist govt. strategically located on the Gaza,and in the West Bank,Syria in the north and able to fire rockets from all directions.Appears Israel, in Olmerts words doesnt have to concerned about unilateral withdrawl from the West Bank,Hamas will take the battle with Fatah to the West Bank.

Very ironic you brought up Denmark, the country whose democracy allowed them to show cartoons of the Profet. The truth is that there is something rotten in Palestinian society, and the name of that is exreme anti-semitism.

ISrael returned Sinai for a peace agreement with Egypt. Israel pulled 10,000 of its citizens out of Gaza hoping for peace, and Olmert's party won the last elections on its platform of further pullouts from the WB (hoping the Palestinians would show good fiath and start their state-building activities in Gaza). What on earth does all this have to do with its nucelear capabilities, which it did not use either in 1967 or 1973 when there was a real danger to its survival. Don't hand out spin and BS.

Reminds me of the two children that murdered their parents and then plead for leniency and mercy to the judge because they were orphans. Anyone who can blame Israel for the tradition of violence and terror of the Palis need not look any further than what else goes on in the Arab world.

1. Space is limited here, so let's try to focus on one issue at a time. Ahmed made an abusrd statement ('whenever Arabs have fought Israel and the US were behind it') and I merely pointed that out. Don't put words in his mouth, or mine for that matter. Does he really need you to represent him? 2. I never said Israel was a Utopia. Just better than the current Islamofascist-totalitarian alternatives; and better than your serial oversimplifications ("terror-state") represent. Which remains the case no matter how you try to obfuscate the issues. What I wrote in post 124 remains true. The world is more complicated than your little soundbites. Deal with it.

It seems that what all the Jihadists who post in these talkback rooms want is to go back to a fundamentalist past where Judaism and any other form of thinking which not Extreme Islam would be surpressed. In this day they would be avenged for the humiliation for, for example, the computer they type from coming from the USA, or somwhere similar. It is really the revolt of darkness against light, irrationality against rationality, of the past against the future. Their vision of a Pan Arabic Muslim State under Sharia Law should really cause the creeps out of any rational person. The problem with this vision is that they want to go back to a past which is as real as the virgins suicide bombers get in heaven. These theories are very nice when you are motivating guys to do crazy things, but as we can see with Hamas et cie, it comes down to governing in a strictly Fascist regime where no difference is tolerated. Israel is in the forefront of this war against darkness.

"...Come back after that ends and we`ll chat." Ok, I'll see you then!

From today's AP article on the fighting in forlorn Gaza: Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman said Hamas did not intend to stop the fighting. "We are going ahead with the steps we have taken in confronting all the security posts and to clear the security posts (in Gaza)," he said. In contrast, Fatah commanders complained they were not given clear orders by Abbas to fight back and that they had no central command. Fatah's strongman in Gaza, Mohammed Dahlan, has spent the last few weeks in Cairo for treatment of a knee injury. Other leading Fatah officials left Gaza for the West Bank after earlier bloodshed. "There's a difference between leading on the ground and leading by mobile phone," police Col. Nasser Khaldi said of Dahlan's absence. "Hamas is just taking over our positions. There are no orders (from Fatah or Abbas)." The only wars the Palestinans are winning is in the Western media and against their own people. After Hamas wins, the IDF will go into Gaza and wipe them out.

Its the other way around, Lakshmi, Palestinian crimes against Israelies. The proof of the pudding is the way society is run. Now where are those Jews in Judea and Samariah, for that matter the Islamic world. What a compelete joke Lackshmi you are. Israel is in a war and the conduct of a war is not a crime. The crime is committed by those that start the war and then hide in kitchens, bedrooms, children's nurseries, mosques, hospitals, and schools to fight them, using the stupid stooges who elected them, and their children as shields. Your pointing your wrath the wrong way.

Who is the blame: The big bully the United States and the little bully, Israel. It's so clear.

Hamas = Fanaticism, extremism, political inexperience, Fatah = corruption, treason, thuggery, impotence, "Peace Process" architects. If forced to choose between the two, I would elect HAMAS until the sensible THIRD WAY party is electable.

I hope your trip was a success. You know that you are a extremist like me at heart and the only thing that we disagree on is a dangerous Bali State in YESH and the expulsion of Jews from any part of Historical Eretz Israel and not for Religious reasons but strictly historical.

They escaped to Egypt instead of confronting Hamas. For sure it's much easier for them to target Israelis unarmed civilians (isn't it Al aksa martyr brigades islamofascists ?).

The present situation is the direct result of the Israeli policy of besieging the Hamas government to death. You can pressure somebody up to a certain limit so he can modify his behavior. But if the pressure continues regardless, the opponent has nothing more to lose and can take desperate action. Hamas modified its behavior as a result of the world's pressure. It accepted the Prisoners' Document, agreeing that Abbas will negotiate with Israel and the result will be brought to a referendum. This was the basis of the unity government. In addition, voices were heard in Hamas of accepting a state within '67 borders. But Olmert and Bush did not know where to stop. No peace negotiations as long as the Hamas government is in power. They encouraged Abbas to keep undermining the Hamas government, and finally we see what is happening now. If Hamas takes control over Gaza, there will be no choice for Israel but to go in and take over. It wanted to avoid this. The good news: while the occupation of Gaza continued all the time from a legal point of view, at least the settlers were pulled out and when there is a more sensible government in Israel and a peace arrangement is worked out, the settlers will not be there to create problems. P.S. I hope that at the last minute Bush gets some sense, or perhaps somebody explains this to him, and Hamas is told that they should leave Abbas forces in Gaza in return for lifting the economic siege. Sounds like a dream.

Its to late now to help Fatah, Fatah has already been given $millions already and ran like cowards thru the hole in the wall into Eygypt,their leaders gave them no instructions or plans on what to do should Hamas attack their strongholds.When the dust settles it looks likes Israel will have a democraticly elected terrorist govt on the doorstep.

The world is getting more dangerous as far as Israel is concerned, but we have our Jewish defenders and detractors saying don’t worry. Shades of 1930’s Germany. Egypt will eventually be taken over by the Muslim Brotherhood as they are getting radicalized and their alliance with a soon to be Nuclear Iran run by the Mullahs is a very deadly combination. Unlike these Jews I mentioned, I am petrified. These Jews also do not see a circle that is closing in with the Balis taking over Jordan through sheer number and both Jordan and YESH being rum by Hamas. They can poo poo this to their hearts content but that is what is happening in front of our eyes. The abandonment of YESH to the Balis would be an extremely foolish move based on realities on the ground. To compound the problem you have Hizbulla in Lebanon still armed to the teeth as well as a fast rearming Syria.. With Israel’s deterrent being weak at this point of time I am not optimistic. The solution is to regain deterrent power. Dispatch all the Hamas leaders and the rank and file to meet their 72 virgins. Create a buffer zone in Gaza and warn Egypt not to move any soldiers contrary to the COLD PEACE treaty. Hit Hizbulla and if necessary create a no go Zone in South Lebanon. In short buffer Zones in all sectors. Sinai with Egypt, the river Jordan with Jordan/Palestine , South Lebanon with Lebanon and Golan with Syria. Buffer zones are not a panacea but as a trip wire work very well. PS Lets not forget a Shiiate Iraq !!!!!!

paint about Israel is completely nullified by its crimes against the Palestinians.And it is this that Ahmed is talking about.To me you talk about israel proper and some of it has already been refuted by an israeli arab(the second class citizenship for Arabs) and to Ahmed you talk about Arab culpability.This strategy is no longer working as you can see from the talkback.The world community KNOWS about the ugly reality of the Occupation.Come back after that ends and we'll chat.

Well, Chairman Abbas, it looks like your appeasement policy and inability to make a decision to use your security forces to confront Hamas has just lost the PA the Gaza Strip. Don't make the same mistake in the West Bank. It's too late now to save the Gaza Strip. By the time the international community debates the issue and decides to do somthing, Hamas and not the PA will be completely in charge. Salvage what you can of your security forces and move them to the West Bank.

Gaza will become an Islamic state and the West Bank will become a secular state. The Palestinians have no future, as since 1948 they constantly chose to live in the past, and they continue to regress.

"What words do they have for the terror of the state of Israel"? Ok, here are some. Israel is a place with: Arab Knesset members. Arab policemen and army officers. Arab doctors, teachers, lawyers, and human rights organizations. Arab patients being treated in Israeli hospitals. Where Arab women can vote in elections, go out in public without a chaperone, wear the chadur or not, as they prefer, work, and drive a car (unlike the terror-state of Arabia under the house of Sa'ud). A place where most road signs are printed in Hebrew, Arabic, and English. Where human trafficking, honor killings, and female-genital-mutilation are NOT condoned by the authorities. Where a woman doen't need three or four witnesses to prove rape and defend herself against the death penalty for adultery. Where there is no death penalty. Sure, Israel is far from perfect. But at least it's trying to be pluralistic in substance. Unlike HAMAS. Electing a horse doesn't make that horse democratic.

The fighting will soon end, but the healing will take a very long time. When the United State and Israel openly supported Fatah and agreed to arm Fatah with training and $85 million in military assistance, Hamas understood this generosity to mean only one thing. Those arms will be pointed at its fighters and hence went on the offensive and pre-empted the eventual confrentation. Most Palestinians while may not be too happy with the economic hardships enforced upon them by Israel and the West for Hamas' election, yet they question Fatah's sincerity and for good reason, when the IDF raids WB cities such as Ramallah, they coordinate with Abbas security forces. "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."

Of course, it was to stop the fatah-hamas shootouts and not the 60 year war against Israel including targeting Jewish children and a palestinian for shot dead for his trouble but what else can be expected from the most morally bankrupt society on the face of the earth.

Israel is an expansionistic state. It has not defined it's borders in 1948 and it has not until now. It has created a settlerstate in the WB agressively for the past 30 years. Saying that Israel has nuclear weapons for deterrent purposes only is a lie. They are also meant to expand without anybody daring to attack Israel for it, hence they weapons supporting offensive and agressive conduct.

were are you??? Start the investigation.

Ahmed, I agree with you Israel helped to destroyed the unity government and escalation this violence among Fatah and Hamas beyond belief. Yet in so many other ways--I feel Israel has destroyed itself and I pre-dict it will be forced out of the Middle East. Hence to say its days are numbered would be an under statement of that reality. Dutch