Hamas rejects Mofaz call to talk as 'Zionist vulgarity'

Who do you think supports Israel as it exists today and why do you think they support it? There once was a class of people who supported Israel -- and would have supported it even if it had been established in a vaccuum. It wasn't, and it's not to their credit that they supported it anyway, but at least their motives weren't actually evil. Not today's Israel supporter. He supports it BECAUSE of what it does. He probably wouldn't even be interested if Israel's existence didn't imply that suffering and oppression would be inflicted upon others.

i will Hamas will not be stupid like abbas`s group .... pay attention Hamas

Hamas should take this warning more seriously than they took the warnings from Israel before the Gaza operation. They still have a chance to save their little cesspool from complete catastrophe, but they'll need to change their tune. On the other hand, psycho-liberal crybabies on this talkback will again rejoice when they can once again renew their accusations about Israel's "brutal war crimes." "I believe that responsible leaders sit down with such groups," he continued. "I know that Hamas continues to fire and amass long-range missiles and prepare for conflict with Israel, and I want to tell Hamas leaders that if they continue on this path, their fate will be decided."

All you're saying is that you were allowed to get away with and perpetrate the injustices which you condemn others for.

...and don't bother carrying a white flag. We don't need no stinking human rights laws.

Meshaal, Haniye, the Hamas Speaker etc have all been reported in the past months in Haaretz and elsewhere, as saying that they would accept the Green Line as the border. Subject to agreement in a referendum of the PLO parties, which of course includes the Pal refugees. You may wish it to be lies and deceit and to remind us all (again!) of the Hamas and Fatah charters. Others in the wider world listen to the background music and know when compromise or change is in the air. They wouldn't be the first resistance ('terrorist' for you no doubt) group to renounce violence and sit in government, there are dozens of post-war examples, from Irgun to EOKA to IRA. Israel will have to deal with ROR squarely at some point. There is a debt to be paid and there will certainly be reparations required from the Israeli purse. Better get used to it. You must not denounce as 'lies' opinions which differ from your own, it neither strengthens your case nor adds anything to the debate.

Likud has a Charter which does not recognize the right of Palestine to exist,want to comment on that Lavi?.

The content of Mofaz's offer and related issues are being beaten to death of this thread. What no one has pointed out is that Hamas's reaction is that of a two year old. I just don't understand how Pals could possibly be happy being ruled by an intransigent toddlers. Terrible two's takes on a whole new meaning. Terrible second millenia. More fundamentally they are being led down the garden path. Yes, Pals will get a state. Its inevitable. But the ability of Israel to provide generous terms is all but impossible and inadvisable. When the mentality of a neighbouring government is that of a violent two year old who revels in suffering of the enemy, who speaks in terms that are not fitting civilized people, there isn't much latitude for risk taking.

I have warned you a thousand time that your free ride would go bad after you treated Arafat and now Abbas like slaves. I told you you will have to deal with Hamas. Now look at the 1947 boundary, and good luck!

Call me crazy... but Mofaz actually proposed a 'first step' plan. In essence, it may not even be a starting point. But certainly to my recollection, it is the first time a Knesset member has articulated negotiations with Hamas. In today's chaotic atmosphere, a difficult thing to do. So what does Hamas say... Zionist vulgarity. Any normal person would expect a muted response or new requirements for talks. After all, Hamas needs international recognition and they want a Palestinian state. Do they suppose, Israelis will simply grant them every wish or whim they desire. This kind of response by Hamas goes to the very crux of the problem. It says volumes about their agenda... no quartet guidelines, no legitimate recognition... no negotiation with the Zionist enemy. So I ask you... what's left war.

I'm tired of how some people keep justifying Zionist colonization of Palestine by invoking memories of the colonization of America, Australia, Atherosclerosis etc. Those countries were colonized hundreds of years ago, when the phrase "human rights" was almost unknown. Colonialism was supposed to be a birthright--"manifest destiny," "white man's burden," "Annie get your gun" etc. Ashkenazi Jews thought of colonizing Palestine when Europeans were DEcolonizing all over the world. There was no United Nations when the Mayflower pilgrims landed. Israel was therefore, and still is, an attempt to reverse the flow of history and time. This is why it elicits such outrage, not just from those who were colonized but from most of the world. Your salvation, and continued existence, require that you realize this ridiculous challenge to history, and make amends.

"Holy Jerusalem which holds equal importance to them as it does to the Jewish religion"? I think Holy Jerusalem holds the same importance to Jews as Mecca or Medina to Muslims.

Call me crazy... but Mofaz actually proposed a 'first step' plan. In essence, it may not even be a starting point. But certainly to my recollection, it is the first time a Knesset member has articulated negotiations with Hamas. In today's chaotic atmosphere, a difficult thing to do. So what does Hamas do... Zionist vulgarity. Any normal person would expect a muted response, with new stipulation requirements for talks. After all, Hamas needs international recognition and they want a Palestinian state. Do they suppose, Israelis will simply grant them every wish or whim they desire. This kind of response by Hamas goes to the very crux of the problem. It says volumes about their agenda... no quartet guidelines, no legitimate recognition... no negotiation with the Zionist enemy. So I ask you... what's left war.

How can there ever be peace when one side refuses to recognise the rights of the other side? Unfortunately Hamas need to be removed from the equation before things can get better.

"Palestinian are not barbarians" Any other jokes ????

propaganda tool for Arabs which you adopted . I did not read from you about close to a million Jews made refugees from Arab countries and the fate of their synagogues . The Temple was real and not Roman ruin like you are trying to make it insignificant . The tendency to overtake houses of warship from others is a very Muslim thing , like during occupation of Europe and especially Spain before they were asked to leave . I still want honesty . PS. Please describe Jordan's ways of preservation and Jewish extensibility of the Western Wall for 19 years of occupation before 1967 .

And the world wants to know why Bibi is in office.

Mofaz gets spit in his face by Hamas who laugh at his proposal. and Mofaz says: "I believe that responsible leaders sit down with such groups," he continued. "I know that Hamas continues to fire and amass long-range missiles and prepare for conflict with Israel, and I want to tell Hamas leaders that if they continue on this path, their fate will be decided." How is it responsible to sit down with those sworn to terrorize your citizens and refuse to speak to you or acknowledge your legitimacy to live in Israel? Are we not beyond threats by now? is it not clear that Hamas does not want to make peace?

That the Arabs don't want peace has never stopped the peace camp from insisting otherwise. Their self-delusion knows no bounds.

he isn't objecting to the details of the mofaz plan. well, of course he is, but it's not the point. & you guys all know what the point is. so much for all the new signals of moderation coming from hamas! can anyone call carter, btw?

"No, no other self-determinable Nation has been there as long as the Jews." There was a kingdom once, a long time ago. However, Jewish folk have always been outnumbered in the region. "take the Ottoman Empire ? the percentage of Jews in it would have meant a far larger Israel in a fair partition." Not according to the statistics. // only the Palestinians who lived in what is now Jordan have a right to live there?// "Well, CJ, since you make up the rules as you go along" No. Only the Palestinians living in what became Jordan had a right to be Jordanian. "Spain legally annexed from the Arabs Dude, you are off your rocker" Read what I actually wrote. Get back to me....

"considered that it was built on a top of a Synagogue " No it wasn't. A church was built where once a temple stood. "Just think the other way around , if a Great Synagogue would of been built on a top of a destroyed Great masque" It wasn't. End of story. Instead, the Arabs built an Arabic style house of worship. Same Go/-d. A rather nice gesture. They should have built a synagogue instead?

...part of the reason there are now laws against colonization, such as the one making it illegal to acquire territory by war. It's referred to in the UNSC resolutions demanding Israel withdraw.. "...you are entitled to express your opinion bcause of what exactly ?" Because I can. What's your excuse for condoning Israel's illegal behaviour?

Besides the Pals are perfectly happy with their hatred of anything Israel

" I fully agree with any person who would argue that the Palestinians have had a most miserable existence since the establishment of the State of Israel. But the responsibility also lies with them, and their Arab nation "sponsors" " But were we talking about the responsibility for their 'miserable existence'? Or about their historical claims, and about the non-exclusivity of Jewish claims? I dosn't see your response as an answer.

"At which point did Australia cease to belong to its rightful owners? Is it illegal possession? I ask this question as a Scotsman. You don't like it so you think I should be thrown out of Europe for Treason.That's laughable Lab. As for the hilariously worded,"all you do is talk about Israel". Don't you realise that it's YOU who can't stop talking about Israel. Oppression, no. I saw enough of that on the Streets of Glasgow between the Protestants and Catholics who couldn't wait to kick each's heads in on a Friday night. Mind you they were United when it came to Antisemitism. Is that what you mean by oppression. Is that what you'd be like with a little power?

"considered that it was built on a top of a Synagogue" Actually it was built on top of a Byzantine church. It may hurt your Jewish feelings, but at the time of the Muslim conquest the remembrance of any Jewish temple being there centuries ago was hardly more than a faint legend.

"I wrote that Israel is the stronger side, and the Palestinians the weaker." It is not news to me that you and your fellow-Zionists venerate the might-makes-right principle. It seems to be news to you that this principle doesn't work. You claim East Jerusalem, and the whole world declares your annexation null and void. You claim the Golan, and the whole world declares your annexation null and void. A criminal can be stronger than I and overwhelm me, but still HE is the criminal. And stronger you are only compared to the Palestinians - in this world you are a midget.

"on a top of a Synagogue" Actually on top of a Roman ruin. It is worthwhile including in your assessment, that before the advent of Zionism synagogues were indeed replete throughout the native Jewish communities in Palestine, including Jerusalem. Also one should adopt a less strident tone when discussing particular peoples proclivity to erase holy places which belong to 'the other', during times of conflict. I am thinking of the 400 plus Arab villages who were quite deliberately destroyed during and after the War of 48, this destruction running concurrently with the destruction of a similar number of mosques. So before one asks for an honest answer one should first offer an honest appraisal. The truth is that both parties have desecrated when it suited and pointing a finger at only one sides dirty work whilst pretending one's own side is Snow White is hardly the foundation upon which to build a future understanding.

Yes, other folk have lived there for as long as Jews. So what? They still live. The question of fulfillment of self determination is another story. This, they will have to resolve it with Israel in a "take and give" relation. If they dont, they wont be able to materialize self determination. CJ Only the Palestinians who lived in what is now Jordan have a right to live there? That is anther option. They might get back Jordanian citizenship. Nothing wrong with it. They can also get a palestinian citizenship as well. But to get it, they will have to negotiate it in give and take with Israel. Nothing else.

how stupid you are? I just wonder how you are comparing the two situation in Palestine and Philippines in such crazy way Palestinian are occupied and transfered and suffered of your rude army soldiers. and the suffering still extending everyday. whats going on the real life is just a reaction of what Israel Government act on the Palestinian territories. I think Hamas did the best not to negotiate with Mofaz. because such compromising will lead to more massacres

"Got it ,duplicitious "Albion über alles" National Socialist from Londonistan?" Wow Abs most of your lot are just happy to invade Palestine and kick a few Pals around. You've invaded Sweden for Israel. How are the settlements going up there? When are you planning to build a security wall and annexe it for Zionism?

if pals wanted peace, they would have had it a long time ago. You are very naive

"on a top of a Synagogue" Actually on top of a Roman ruin. It is worthwhile including in your assessment, that before the advent of Zionism synagogues were indeed replete throughout the native Jewish communities in Palestine, including Jerusalem. Also one should adopt a less strident tone when discussing particular peoples proclivity to erase holy places which belong to 'the other', during times of conflict. I am thinking of the 400 plus Arab villages who were quite deliberately destroyed during and after the War of 48, this destruction running concurrently with the destruction of a similar number of mosques. So before one asks for an honest answer one should first offer an honest appraisal. The truth is that both parties have desecrated when it suited and pointing a finger at only one sides dirty work whilst pretending one's own side is Snow White is hardly the foundation upon which to build a future understanding.

Since 1939, or more specifically 1949, a certain Fourth Geneva conventions were adopted.[Guess why] These amongst other things preclude the acquisition of territory by force, in any kind of war, 'defensive' or otherwise.

But their idea of "peace" involves a non-viable Palestinian State dotted with Israeli settlements, with no control over its borders, water, or anything else..nor any rights to share Holy Jerusalem which holds equal importance to them as it does to the Jewish religion. Then these same people wonder why the Palestinians are unhappy and go on to accuse them of not wanting peace?

You just might open up a hornets nest---even if you are an Israeli firster. But then you are all for occupation and oppression---right H. A way of life with some people---huh H. Maybe we should throw your disloyal butt out of Europe --all you do is talk about Israel. Treason I would call it.

You wrote: "Israelis do have a historical claim." Palestinians have, too ... Or are YOUR claims exclusive? The Answer: We in Israel accepted partition in 1948. Half of the Middle East then attacked us to wipe us off the map. The Palestinians joined them. We were bruised but we prevailed. We unfortunately have had all too many wars since then, with the common theme that I) in each case we have fought against an enemy that would want us removed from the face of the Middle East if only they could manage it and II) without exception the Palestinian populations living in Israel and out of Israel have sided fully with those who would destroy us. I fully agree with any person who would argue that the Palestinians have had a most miserable existence since the establishment of the State of Israel. But the responsibility also lies with them, and their Arab nation "sponsors" who cry to be their protectors and treat them all so terribly on the other hand. Peace is a two way street Axel.

Read my letter carefully; I wrote that Israel is the stronger side, and the Palestinians the weaker. This means that, for the Palestinians, compromise must mean NOT returning to the pre-June 1967 bordersa, but to something less. For Israel, this means giving up the most of the West Bank, but not all, by any means. The pre-1967 borders were already an established fact, even though not recognized by the Arabs, And this fact was violated andthus annulled by Jordan, which ruled the WB at the time and commenced hostilities against Israel. The borders of your country, Axel, are not what they were before September 1, 1939. Guess why.

If Hamas won't talk to Israel, then there will be International Pressure on Hamas. Then if the Palestinians really want peace, they won't vote for Hamas. Talk Talk Talk. Talk to everybody. Why not? However, routine checks on people for weapons must go on forever from now on.

Yeah, they should declare that Acre and Jaffa and Tel Aviv are there's as well, that will really convince the Israelis to give up territory to them. It's moronic thinking like this, that will ensure that Israel will never hand over any more land to them. Why would they, when they know that as soon as they do, the Palestinians will start building more rockets and attacking Jewish poplulation centers, just as they did after Israel pulled all it's citizens out of Gaza. Admit it, you just want to see Israel destroyed don't you??? C'mon you can admit it here

It's the voice of the Zionist arctic. Tell you what Abs, when the sun rises on you again, in what is, 5 months time, we'll agree to this. The inhabitants of the Falkland Islands can have a referendum on whether they want to be Argentinian or British and the inhabitants of the West Bank can have a referendum on whether they want to Pal or Israeli. Majority wins, like in proper democracies. That OK with you?

Is it unnatural that OIC and Arab League be ruled by democracy for the sake of 'the power of biased men.' ?

Hamas speaks with a serpent-like forked tongue; one seemingly conciliatory English accent to appease and hoodwink the naive West, and one in raw, uncompromising impassioned Arabic at home to motivate their resistance fighters to fight to their deaths until illegitimate Israel is vanquished from Al Quds, which they appropriate as all of the modern State. There is nothing democratic nor fair about a Hamas that blatantly denies any Jewish connection to the Land of Israel and the City of Jerusalem and instead stakes the land for Islam and their Prophet Mohammed though they confiscated the one and only holy Jewish area from the remnants of the Israelite nation vanquished earlier by the world power, Rome.

So called "Right of Return" of Arab refugees to Israel "within the 1967 borders" is a clear demand for "more than a Palestine within the 1967 borders". Please let me know if there is a "SERIOUS voice on the Palestinian (and Arab side as well)" to drop this claim?

And if you think those refugees are negotiabile go read Al Ahram (English) Al jazeera and all the other Arab publications. For the Palestinians the 1967 borders are a just a propaganda gimmick for naive people in Europe and Americaa whom the Palestinians are trying to lure into boycotts of Israel.

Without much ado, I enjoy your posts. I have read most of them. Well written, in fact perfectly balanced. Certain amount of satire. Sometimes "over the top".! However well received. Gen Mofaz is way out of his depth. Hamas is a terrorist movement. Their charter,..well its all or nothing. You have spelt it out. Imagine negotiating with murderers holding 1.5 million Gazan citizens hostage, either for political gain or more than likely "Martyrdom"! Thanks. Stephen.

"Israel has given up its dreams of a Greater Israel, but the Palestinians have yet to give up their dreams of a Greater Palestine." I there any SERIOUS voice on the Palestinian (and Arab side as well) which demands more than a Palestine within the 1967 borders? And in case you start talking Hamas - be prepared that I find countless Israeli voices who have not given up Greater Israel ...

You seem to be doing quite well for yourself today (as you do every day), eh Lincoln? It's only 12:00 noon EST, and how many of your comments have already been posted today alone...20, 30? So much for the censorship you were complaining about in a separate article, eh? Where's your apology to Haaretz? Oops, no time for anything like that, eh? No sir, you're too busy doing what you do best...Israel-bashing. It's remarkable how such a self-professed genius like you, the know-it-all about world history, international diplomacy, military warfare, weapons systems, aerospace technology, bio-science, etc. has the time to submit 50 Israel-bashing posts every blessed day. Someone of your caliber could/should be spending his time curing cancer, solving world hunger/poverty, and advising NASA on space travel. But, alas, none of those ventures are nearly as important to you as Israel-bashing.

Dear General Mofaz, I write with the greatest of respect. Without prejudice. Please, listen to an old fellow. Do what I have done. I am pensioned off. I spend my quality time writing on Haaretz TB. The rest is either with my family or fishing. I have spent these last years catching salmon from Canada to Scotland. Take a break. Forget about politics. You are a good fellow, without the qualities required as a politician. Please refrain from embarrassing your good name and especially as an ex chief of staff of ZAHAL. Toda, ve behazlacha.

In a speech recently given, which is exactly what organizations such as hamas believe, it was stated that arabism was a natural happening and choice and that arabs were/are going along with it smoothly and without violence as opposed to Zionism which was seen as an unnatural choice that is founded on forcing and violating the nature and thats why nature is now revenging and causing its collapsing??!!! so my thoughts were: If force wasnt the tool used in the 6th century, would there have been by now arabism in the region??!! Was it really a natural or a man-made choice??!! In fact, it isnt nature that is now revenging or threating Israel, it is the power of biased men.

still thinks of her as "this Jew" ,despite of all her submission..

This provisional/permanent state will be utterly dependent on Israel. You are right , but the size does not matter , it is the Pali culture what matters . The whole culture of victim hood was created to leach the world for the unproductive and destructive folk . This way they can be refugees forever while stilling and corrupting with impunity . No other nation in the worlds history was or is a refugee forever . I was a refugee for three month and then got a job . And this is the precise reason for their intransigence . An easy way of making a living while blaming others .

I've heard many a compromise offer from the Israeli side, which is the stronger, but nary a one from the Palestinian side, which is the weaker. Israel has given up its dreams of a Greater Israel, but the Palestinians have yet to give up their dreams of a Greater Palestine.

"Israelis do have a historical claim." Palestinians have, too ... Or are YOUR claims exclusive?

the allon plan, you know 60 percent of west bank goes to arab control. israel's mai goals was always to weaken the plo against hamas. it was when arafat was leader, and still persists with abbas as leader. due to abbas's impotence thanks to israel, hamas will overwhelmingly win more in the upcoming elections if they particpate and who would blame them? the west bank palestinians saw that being peaceful got them nothing but more land thefts. no, if i were a palestinian negotiating, i would start from the 47 borders. legally, israel has no right to not 1 inch more. the palestinians deserve a state that is viable, contigious, with the christian and moslem part of jerusalem as theirs.

You are saying "Let the jews who want it live on biblical land inside a Palestinian state, and accept that they are convicted by Palestinian courts if they commit criminal acts (like everyone else in a functioning society)". So let me hear from you , how many functional societies you know among Arabs ? High hopes are a virtue , but a baseless one is a liability .

CJ ? ?Yes, other folk have lived there for as long as Jews?. No, no other self-determinable Nation has been there as long as the Jews. CJ ? ?there are a lot more Arabs than there are of us? Indeed, which is why they have huge land masses. But take the Ottoman Empire ? the percentage of Jews in it would have meant a far larger Israel in a fair partition. Roughly, Judea & Samaria would balance it out, considering the Jews expelled from the Arab countries. CJ ? ?only the Palestinians who lived in what is now Jordan have a right to live there? Well, CJ, since you make up the rules as you go along, I guess Jordan?s immigration policy is down to you too. CJ: Spain legally annexed from the Arabs Dude, you are off your rocker.

considered that it was built on a top of a Synagogue , Arabs are fortunate that it is still there , that it is in good order and fully protected , and Arabs still have a chance to riot , all Thanks to Israel . Just think the other way around , if a Great Synagogue would of been built on a top of a destroyed Great masque , how long that Great Synagogue would exist if it would be in Arab hands ??? An honest answer , please .

You seem to have so many answers from so far away. Did you know that the Middle East is approximately the size of Australia, and "expansionist colonial" Israel just makes one part in 550 of it (disputed territories included). Israel fits 3 times into Tasmania and 12 times into Victoria. There are sheep stations in Australia bigger than Israel. Yet we have offered far, far, far more to the Palestinians relatively than anything that Australia has even come close to with the Aboriginal Indigenous inhabitants. But unlike the white colonialists to Australia who have absolutely no birthright to your wonderful nation, Israelis do have a historical claim.

Perhaps you can answer the question, At which point did Australia cease to belong to its rightful owners? Is it illegal possession? Take your time.

Whilst israel is not recognised by the pals they will never have their state

...you are entitled to express your opinion bcause of what exactly ?

crimes should be investigated first. Did he escape from Israel because somebody had recognized him as a Kapo?

In its official response, Hamas called Mofaz's offer "Zionist vulgarity" and said it would never recognize Israel or give legitimacy to the occupation. The way hamas talk shows its hatred and opposition to peace by not even giving a chance to sit at a table and negotiate. They believe that only they have the right to the land and deny that of Israel! They are clearly ignoring the fact that they and the people they belong to were 6th century invaders of the same land and many others they claim to be theirs!

This just proves that the Liberals in Israel are just as blind as the ones in the U.S.. To Hamas, a good Jew is a dead Jew. You can't negotiate with someone who wants you dead. That would be like saying that a committee of Jews could have changed Hitler's mind. Mofaz has gone off the deep end and demonstrated why Kadima is a party doomed to failure. Barry Zornberg

and the World Community would recognize it at once. Ask the pal boys lover Ben Alofs if he doesn't agree with this anti-imperialist measure.

Hamas says Mofaz peace plan 'important step' Kadima MK and former IDF chief presents plan for establishment of Palestinian state, says Israel should consider negotiating with Hamas if it changes its ways. Senior Hamas figure al-Masri: This is a very important step, but we are interested in its translation from talk into action Attila Somfalvi, Ali Waked Published: 11.08.09, 13:19 / Israel News Knesset Member Shaul Mofaz (Kadima) on Sunday presented his plan for the establishment of a Palestinian state in temporary borders, saying such a plan is needed "because the relative calm is dangerous, and at its end hides a violent and bloody conflict." Speaking to reporters in Tel Aviv, Mofaz said, "If (Prime Minister Benjamin) Netanyahu won't implement this plan, I will do so when I become prime minister." The MK, a former IDF chief of staff, also said Israel should consider negotiating with Hamas. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3801873,00.html

RCummings, Steve of Mevaserret is right. Hamas has never accepted Israel's right to exist and calls for her destruction. There's also the "little" matter of both Hamas and Fatah's demand for the acceptance into Israel 4 million hostile inhabitants which is another way of saying "destroy Israel" RCummings you'd make a better argument if what you say isn't based on lies. If Israel pulls back now it will only encourage Hamas to act as they ALWAYS have acted and that is to murder Israelis.

Israel will love dealing with Hamas.

" Last update - 17:28 08/11/2009 Hamas rejects Israel call to talk as 'Zionist vulgarity' By Mazal Mualem, Haaretz Correspondent Tags: Middle East peace The Hamas rulers of the Gaza Strip said Sunday that they would never negotiate with the "Zionist enemy", hours after Kadima MK Shaul Mofaz presented a plan to hold talks with the group and establish a Palestinian state in 60 percent of the West Bank within one year. In its official response, Hamas called Mofaz's offer "Zionist vulgarity" and said it would never recognize Israel or give legitimacy to the occupation." Got it, fantasy buffs?

"Israel vs the Scoundrels" It's Israel who has illegally taken Palestinian territory, Brod. Do you wear your shoes backwards? Clothes inside out? Watch TV from behind the set?

To call distinguishing between Jews and Zionists "terminological hair splitting" is like doing the same for the distinction between Germans and Nazis. To make it clear, Zionists are a nationalist movement among Jews, just as the Nazis were such a movement among the Germans. Further than that, I am not making a parallel between Nazism and Zionism - in case anyone here wants to pick up such a cheap opportunity for righteous indignation.

"Another arab state in Palestine?" Yes, other folk have lived there for as long as Jews. We were given half, completely gratis. "Arabs already have 22 countries (most built on stolen land)" Legally states. BTW there are a lot more Arabs than there are of us. If we all went to live in Israel by it's actual Sovereign territories (198) there'd still be plenty of room "two in Palestine," Palestine is what is left of Palestine after Jordan and Israel were carved off. " Jordan " Is Jordan, only the Palestinians who lived in what is now Jordan have a right to live there. "and Gaza" Gaza is a part of what is now left of PALESTINE "How about the "Al-Andaluz" Mr. Bin Laden (as respectul an arab as Mr. Arafat) mentioned?" UH? You're raving.. " When are Britain (Gibraltar, an arabic name, unlike Palestine), Portugal and Spain giving Iberia back to the arabs?" All legally annexed. Israel has never legally annexed any territory.

it's very strange that Mofaz called for negotiations with the terrorist group Hamas and ignoring Abbas' call for peaceful co-existence with the israelis. i think you don't know how to lead a peaceful agreement. israelis have to change this corrupt leaders like Mofaz and Netanyahu. you should have a new israeli leadership ready for peace.

I am confident that the meaning of my message was understood without terminological hairsplitting.

"Either we control Judea and Samaria or an Iranian proxy army launches rockets into our cities while the world denies Israel the right of self-defense. The Goldstone report says it all." The Goldstone report doesn't deny Israel self defense, nor does the world. Why do you spout such ignorant nonsense?

I think this is just political maneuvering to gain some center/left votes within kadima. Other than this, maybe Mofaz wants to get on his belly and crawl, begging for peace (sic)

'Mofaz is in the opposition. From where does he have a mandate to speak in place of the elected power base?' Err... he's an elected MK, Proud Israeli. They're allowed to speak you know. And the opposition is allowed, indeed expected, to have policies and put them forward. Being in opposition never stopped Netanyahu speaking continually about everything. Would you be happier with a one-party state (as long as it's your party of course), where all who don't toe the party line disappear to a Gulag? If there is an existential threat facing Israel, it comes from people who do not understand what a democracy means or how it works. (Let alone things like the rule of international law, belligerent occupation and the many other duties upon a democracy).

Are you unaware of the distinction between "Jewish" and "Zionist"? If so, maybe you should acquaint yourself with Neturei Karta, perhaps via http://www.nkusa.org

You might be right, bur the trouble is, even with Israeli legislation in place, what's to stop a future Israeli government changing its mind, as Bibi has done over Israel's settlement freeze obligations from the road map. Mofaz's plan is a Bantustan, and the danger as always, as with the security fence is that Israel may try to make temporary borders permanent. Personally I think the only way the Pals could accept any kind of interim state is if the EB is taken out of Israel's hands and placed under the UN, as in Kosovo. Then fine.

HOW DELUSIONAL! I'M SURE HE'LL ATTRACT SUPPORT. ISRAELIS LIKE MOFAZ ARE HOPELESS. THE YOUTH HOLD THE KEY.

'Either we control Judea and Samaria or an Iranian proxy army launches rockets into our cities'. On that basis, countries all over the world would be annexing neighbours' territory as a precaution against future attack. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Netherlands, Belgium and some of Norway too please! If an amicable settlement and peace deal have been done, why would anyone want to launch rockets at Israel? It is BECAUSE Israel is occupying the West Bank that Arabs are fighting back. Let me guess, they attacked us before we occupied the WB, they wan't to annihilate Israel and drive us into the sea. The reality is that Hamas has said it will recognise the Green Line border, so the simple answer is conclude an agreement and pull back to it. If doubts remain, insist on a buffer zone to the East of the Green Line. If anyone attacks Israel after the final status agreement, then it's like any other country being attacked - you mobilise and go to war.

is: "subject to change, but only to our advantage" As exemplified by - the provisional Green Line - the provisional security fence

From where does he have a mandate to speak in place of the elected power base? Netenyahu extended his open hand to Livni, who rejected it.

The Pal state in 60% of the West bank would be the start of the process- "legislation would be enacted to show Israel's serious intent, providing for the subsequent relocation in the Galilee and in West Bank settlement blocs of about 70,000 residents of isolated settlements". Presumably he is open to trading land currently in Israel for the land near the Green Line where the settlement blocs are located.

Mofaz do you think that the Palestines are stupid enough to accept this ridiculous and humiliating deal of 60% of west bank instead of 100%, and with who HAMAS hum. But I have to give the credit for proposing to talk with HAMAS, so is a good start keep working on it.

Sadly, liberal Jews have not learnt anything. They expected the same from PLO when they entered into Oslo agreements. Now they want to legitimize Hamas. The next on line would propably be Al Quada.

And Palestinian Populated East Jerusalem? If Not, How Useful is the plan? Who is the plan's audience? Certainly not Palestinians, Syrians, and the General International Community. Relocation of Westbank settlers to Golan or to encircle Arabs in Galilee will not be Ok with the west,.

Mofaz is catering to those Jews who fear there will be too many Arabs around and must therefore be given some kind of state to unload them. The problem is that Palestinians themselves want to unload the Jews from the West Bank and they want to unload the Jewish state altogether. That's what they mean by peace, not a Palestinian state and a Jewish state.

Either we control Judea and Samaria or an Iranian proxy army launches rockets into our cities while the world denies Israel the right of self-defense. The Goldstone report says it all.

Better yet, Arabs should continue to insist on destruction of Israel, as they did in 1948 and ever since. Only final solution will bring the peace.

lol. How about we start bt offerng 120% and settling for 100%?

why the indecent haste all of a sudden? Or is it the fact that Abbas and the Palestinians are unilaterally going to declare a state based on the 1967 borders which would likely be recognised by Planet Earth? And this is the best way of ensuring Israel gets to grab 40% of Palestine before that happens? Israel and more importantly Israeli politicians have absolutely no intention of being the one s to put their name on a piece of paper formally establishing a Palestinian State. This is Mofaz trying to string everything out for yet another year and maybe even trying to take our attention away from the Goldstone Report. 9 out of 10 for effort though.

Palestinians should insist on UNGA resolution 181 of November 1947. City's like Jaffa (completely Palestinian Arab) and Akka (Acre), vast parts of the Galilee and southern Palestine near Gaza had been assigned to the Palestinian Arab state in 1947. Most of these areas, like Jaffa and Akka, were captured by Zionist troops in violation of the partitition resolution, before Israel unilaterally declared itself a state in May 1948. So yes, Michael, Palestinians have indeed the legitimate right to insist that these territories are handed back to them! I would encourage all Talkbackers to have a look at the map of UNGAR 181.

... or is this just a ploy to trip-her-up...?! ... after all, she's the one who spent months & months chatting amicably to Abbas et al when Olmert was the incumbent-cripple-in-power...

The conflict will be ended along the 67 lines? Then what, pray tell, caused the 67 conflict? No, the conflict will be ended when the Arabs give up their desire to destroy Israel and murder all the Jews. And you know when that will happen? Never.

Another arab state in Palestine? Arabs already have 22 countries (most built on stolen land), two in Palestine, Jordan and Gaza. How about the "Al-Andaluz" Mr. Bin Laden (as respectul an arab as Mr. Arafat) mentioned? When are Britain (Gibraltar, an arabic name, unlike Palestine), Portugal and Spain giving Iberia back to the arabs?

Another plan means more talks, of course, and after another 16 years of talks go by without moving forward perhaps another plan can be suggested leading to another 16 years of talks.

Boker Tov eliyahu.

The main problem with isolated settlements remaining in Palestine is a security rather than ethno-religious one. The IDF will not be there to protect them if any trouble brews up - as it seems to do so frequently where settlers are involved. The Palestinian security forces can not feasibly, with the small numbers envisaged, run 24-hour defence and protection duties for 80+ isolated communities, any more than the British can in Helmand. As a former Chief of Staff, that will be patently obvious to Mofaz. Only the larger towns - Kiryat Arba, Ariel, Beit El, etc - will be on the list of security priorities for entirely practical reasons.

Mofaz should learn that Israel does not have to beg to talk to the scoundrels. It is the latter that should be begging to talk about peace if they are interested in peace. Long before the scoundrels of the Middle East conflict appeared, the Moros-Islamist-Jihadists in Mindanao, Philippines were already committing carnages and atrocities against the Christians and Philippines government. General Pershing talked and fought with them in the early part of the 20th century. And they are still the same barbarians today. However, the Philippines government never grant them independence and having their separate state. It is time Israel learns from this experience.

The essence of the Mofaz "Plan" is the creation of a mini Palestinian "state" on 60% of the West Bank. The provisional state will become the permanent state. This provisional/permanent state will be utterly dependent on Israel. And, of course, the dear settlers will quickly fill up the remaining 40%. No one will, or should, give this any credence.

Arafat's recognition of Israel was one of his many strategic mistakes. It's allowed Israel to insist Hebron is disputed territory but not Tel Aviv. The Pals should lay claim to territory west of the Green line, just as Israel claims it east of the Green line. Both sides can then compromise on the Green line. Mofaz is just pissing in the wind with this suggestion. Why on earth, after waiting over 40 years would the Pals be interested in a little Bantustan?

There is no possibility for peace without a solution in the diretion Mofaz points out. Details will be subject to tough negotiations, but these words from a minister gives hope. BUT: Why should all Israelis have to evacuate a future Palestinian state? Arabs live in Nazareth, Akko etc.; a limited presence of the "other people" in each state could lead to mutual normalisation? Let the jews who want it live on biblical land inside a Palestinian state, and accept that they are convicted by Palestinian courts if they commit criminal acts (like everyone else in a functioning society).

To exclude the Temple Mount and Arab East Jerusalem is a well understood deal breaker. It was only on Jerusalem that Arafat stalled at Camp David-NOT the right of return or the exact demarcation of the West Bank borders. To insist that Hamas make all the concessions the quartet [really just Israel] asks of it in return for half a state minus its capital and minus just about every other characteristic of a modern state is a second deal broker. To do so in return for some imaginary commitment to further concessions in the unspecified future is nothing more or less than Netanyahu himself would like the opportunity to bribe Abbas with. In short, nothing much has changed in Israel beyond the rhetoric, since the days of Oslo when Rabin imagined some sort of 'demi-state' for the Palestinian underlings.

When Hamas was elected [ IN A FAIR AND CERTIFIED DEMOCRATIC ELECTION] They announced they would abide with all previous agreements with Israel, Wich implies acceptence of Israel. Israel and the US [Bush administration] would have no part of it and immediatly cut off funds to Hamas.

Naive and ridiculous. Why does Kadima and Mofaz refuse to listen to the actual words being spoken by Hamas. Watch any heated debate on Israeli TV and you will know why. Don't listen to Mofaz. Put money on the this not happening and you will get rich quickly. It's all about the Temple Mount, stupid.

... be required reading for Israeli politicians before they attempt to draft well-meaning, but totally non-viable solutions to the conflict. A credible renunciation of these charters and a track record of supportive, physical measures taken by the Palestinians and their militant supporters should first be established before any trust is extended to them, but this will only happen when Islam renounces its superiority complex and relinquishes its sanctioned militancy against other faiths, so don't hold your breath over this if you love life.

this is about the same number that the likes of Ehud Barak and Olmert were talking about few years back. With time they went up to about 93-97% of the west bank. Folks, this conflict if it ever ends, will be delineated along the green line, no matter how much more blood is shed. The alternative is annexation and Israeli citizenship for the West Bank residents.