Hamas: Palestinians have right to oppose occupation by all means

No one has the right to "all means", neither Hamas nor the IDF. Neither the qassams nor the house destructions are justified. Both are illegal and immoral.

There is a curious question that must be answered about this story. What was the "explosives belt" doing in Tel Aviv?? How was an attack supposed to take place when the Palestinians have not been allowed to enter Israel?? Or is this just a tidbit of disinformation by Shin Bet to heighten the fear within the Israeli population?? Supposedly, according to the Iraeli authorities, there was supposed to be a Yom Kippur bombing, however during this period the West Bank was under a military lockdown. The the reason is to scuttle the November so-called summit. Neither of these explanations make sense to anyone who is not terrified already.

Hello Smadar, My system is to prepare canned responses to Danite imaginary "accusations" of anti-Semitism and the like. In this case (Yom Kippur), I got more than I expected, an inside view into somebody who knows Judaism only from the outside. Will serve well as a canned response for future attacks. Note that I never initiate any confrontation; I ignore Danite. Since he comes at me quite often, I have multi-purpose canned responses so I don't spend any time on him. By some time needs to be spent filling the cans. It is done rarely. My apologies to all concerned, but I hope they are amused as I am.

I was talking about 4000 katyusha rockets that are not hand-made + medium-range fajr rockets that fell around me. We Israelis were PAINED by the death of Leb civillians, but that is the difference between us & our enemies. 600 were Hiz terrorists not civillians. This was also confirmed by Iran. The Palestinians launched their 2nd intifada of terror in 2000. Before that they worked and made livings in Israel. This was just after 2000 Camp David talks when Barak offered Arafat almost all he wanted. He just refused outright & didnt even make a counter-offer. Now the Pals are suffering the consequences of their own actions. The fact that you cannot see both sides of the dispute is also sick.

If you believe that, you should check out how the Good Guys fought against Germany and Japan. Have you ever condemned our killing of millions of their civilians or called "Bomber" Harris and Curtis Lemay war criminals?

Israel has the right to exist and the Palestinians have the right to a state. Both have the right of "self defense," neither has the right to "murder." They need someone independent and in between them to stop the violence. It is an old and uncomplicated idea, some times it works and sometimes not. If it doesn't, the parties can return to killing each other.

#86 presents a very interesting distortion of history. In terms of international law (IL), Israel was established in 1947 by the partition resolution #181. Before that, there was nothing called Israel in the modern history; at least not in the era of IL. In the 1948 war, Israel expanded beyond the borders that the UN decided for it. Who started a war is irrelevant. So, the international community has in fact been in breach of its own decision by recognizing Israel on its current borders.In 1967, Israel captured more lands in Gaza, WB and the Golan and Sinai. Those are occupied territories and the law of occupation applies. Whether they were captured from a sovereign or not is irrelevant. To make things easier, let's leave this for the experts; refer to the highest judicial body on Earth and see what they say. Simply put: Israel occupies the land it has captured since 5 June 1967; it cannot keep it for IL prohibits the accession of land by force; and until free, Israel has obligations.

Good post, Spy Guy. However, so-called Israel will not listen to your logic. They psychopathically feel themselves backed into a corner, and they will strike out at any 'threat' with no mediating thinking between their first danger-'feeling' and their reactions. We saw this last year in Lebanon. You see this on these threads. There is absolutely no point in preaching reason to these inhabitants of their own Cuckoo's Nest: the only thing that they will ever understand is brute force, and then they will retreat into their alternative personality, The Victim, and retreat back to their homes in Noo Yawk or wherever. And, thus, Palestine will be returned to the Palestinians, not with a bang but a whimper. The zionist entity was created by the Rothschild family: they are currently being ruined by the financial powers-that-be. For the brain-washed zionists, so-called Israel really was never more nor less than a holiday camp, albeit that this this encampment has cost the Palestinians mightily.

scary

No, sorry. So-called Israel, as an occupying power, is not allowed by international law to turn off the electricity. For more information, please do check out the Geneva Accords.

I tried to read through the frantic zionist posts above; however, I must admit to aborting the entire distasteful task. Let me just say that under international law, attacks upon military personnel of a foreign occupying power are not terrorism but legitimate acts of self-defence. You zionists must only ask yourselves: who is your 'military personnel'. As I understand it, anyone over the age of 18 is military, one way or the other. Therefore: Long live Hamas and their legitimate acts of self-defence against the evil and slimy zionist regime of occupation!

terrorism remains a problem in india and the world over. if we were to fight it the way israel or the us fights terror, it would be much worse. our way atleast offers a ray of light at the end of the tunnel.... your way is only darkness

"Israelis have the right to oppose Hamas attacks on Israel by all means available," Hamas said. Somehow that reversal sounds right.

Which Occupation? What Occupation ? and where? Will some ARAB person please answer. HAMAS governs Gaza. Fatah governs the West Bank. Should any Arab persons be dissatisfied, THEY MUST CONTACT THEIR GOVERNMENTS. Sorry Israel is no longer in charge here and there is NO OCCUPATION of these lands. Please read 'The Myth of the Occupied Territories' by Boris Shuster May 2001 where it is explained that'OCCUPIED' is one of the most misused, misapplied and misunderstood definitions of the Arab/Israeli Conflict. But when one tells a LIE often enough, people will believe it and they do.

I invite eneryone to read HOW the state of Israel was born!

WITH THE HIDING BEHIND DUTCH AND OTHER FAKE NAMES TO WRITE YOUR TOTAL RUBBISH AROUND THE WORLD !

as tupac is an idiot who has never heard of soldiers breakdowns in war i will educate him! in ww1 it was called "shell shock" and he obviously thinks that the movies are real showing all of those brave soldiers , when in fact most are scared to death under fire ! some actually breakdown !!

"It just happened. Israel started a war it didn`t want and ended up controlling the West Bank and Gaza" 1967 was a deliberate Israeli Landgrab War. Read Moshe Dayan's thoughts on it.

intentionally targeting and killing women and children is not a given right.

Who is the most right wing party ever in the region? Hamas. They win hands down. Repressive, oppressive regime with strict rules for their own members and strict requirements from others. No sense, no compromise and respect for others or the rights of others and no morality beyond their own skins and requirements. If you don't condemn them you have no right to talk about anybody else.

Mark, that mindgame is a bunch of crap. They're not happy merely being "set free", as you call it, as if that were the issue. It is Hamas, Ahmedinejad and the wahabis that wants to exterminate the Jews (and not only in Israel), not the other way around. That's what they say themselves (the Jewish Center in Argentina they attacked had zero to do with ME fighting, nor did (11). Israel (and the Jews) have as legitimate tools in their self-defense kit Dresden and Hiroshima, just as the US and UK used this tactic, and without being called "Nazis". Those who disagree are using Peretz's binoculars to view the world. Mutual Assured Destruction kept the Cold War cold for 50 years of East-West conflict. Unfortunately, this doesn't work with jihadis, who want those 72 virgins. Ein brera.

You really are a pathetic little antisemite. Your pretension to be some great liberal thinker is just that--pretention.

gmar hatima tova!!! Keep up the good fight.

Dakkar, Whether you wish to acknowledge it or indeed can recognize it--your government's aggressive policies in the Palestinian territories and the region have made you (the Israelis)the neighbors from hell today in the Middle East. I have never seen such brutal aggression and indifference from a so called democracy and a people in all my life and I am appalled. What your government and army has done to the Palestinian people is unconscionable & I can't how robbing & stealing & killing your neighbors can be atoned. It horrifies the whole world. And how you can complain about 4,000 handmade rocket when your army has fired 15,000 pounds of artiliary shells into Gaza is disturbing? Plus your justification for the Army' murder of 600 Lebanese civilians as Hizbollah terrorists is plain sick. It seems to me you are the one who needs to stop smoking grass and come to your senses. Dutch P.S. Dropping leaflets does not excuse the army from war crimes.

....As long as there are Jews in first or second place in World Chess, we can checkmate Dr. Evil... Bobby Fisher was the chessplayer of all times, a Jews, anti-Zionist, anti-occupation. And the US, Israel, and Jewish people treated him like A CRIMINAL (a refugee at last 30 years). I know him last time in Tokyo, a transit city before leaving to third country, probably Norway.

Palestinians have the right to oppose Israeli occupation by all means available" and....Israel have the right to turn off electricity to protect its people against Qassams.Period.

Well, if you support collective punishment, then I guess what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and I don't expect to read any posts from you if the favor is returned against Israel---no more whining about civilians, right? Okay. Regards.

Remember the way you rape,kill and rob the ethnic chinese before you criticise Israel. What the difference,Indra???????

ME is tiring me out!

Wonder why it's still okay with liberals that Iran executes teenage girls for being kids? Well, I guess we'll never know. Get ready for every Anti-Zionist or Anti-American conspiracy theory in the world Tuesday. Yuck! This thing can really become quite sickening over the next couple of days. I think I'll just crack a Bible over my head and hope to wake up to find Israel victorious. Naw, you know me! I don't chicken out like that. As long as there are Jews in first or second place in World Chess, we can checkmate Dr. Evil.

Jabotinsky was the ideological leader of Menachem Begin and Yiztak Shamir - Likud stream of politics -. And the Arab attacks on Jews began only after the Balfour Declaration and Zionist settlements excluding Arab labour -The Irgun and the Lehi fought the British after the White Paper. Their roots are in Palamch and Hagannah trained by Orde Charles Wingate to suppress Palestinian national struggles. The even flirted with supporting the Axis powers.

"At least I am not such a hypocrite as to demand that Hamas behave better than the US and Israel." Because you believe Hamas members who willfully choose to slaughter incapable of human moral standards?

It is worth noting that encouragement is a rather pale term for being drive out at the point of a gun. However, that having been said, you do agree that Palestinians were driven out. Thank you.

in celebration after blowing up a disco filled with British teenagers?

The issue is not how any other country treats it minorities - I will posit that many Moslem countries do badly at that. The issue is how Israel behaves. There is general agreement (except by zionists) that Israel discriminates both by law and by practice against gentiles.

As to not giving a damn about those refugees, I remind you that they have the right (except to zionists) to return to their homeland just as much as a Jew whose ancestors left nineteen centuries ago. There is no reason for other countries to take Israel off the hook. Finland is a majority Christian country; would you say the US (another majority Christian country) has an obligation to take in refugees from there because we share the same religion?

Hello Tosefta, I read post #248 and found somewhat amusing. Again there's intense debate between you and Danite over possible misunderstandings on given statements or highlighting what's interpreted as offensive accusations. Haaretz Talkbackers must be quite amused put against the seriousness of issues involving the Middle East and the global connotations. It's amazing that you place great efforts in clarifying your posts in response to Danite. But all this really diverts from the article's content and maybe Haaretz staff has had enough of it. Who knows. Hope things are well otherwise. May peace be upon us all.

I will o longer engage in this grotesque and repulsive farce you are making of our tradition.You are a disgrace.I have offered you forgiveness and have asked for it.I have done all I can for you.You are own your own, with your own shame and sins to account for.I account for mine, you account for yours.I tried.

As to Israel being a Jewish homeland, and therefore the laws need not be justified to me, the Third Reich was the German homeland. Using your logic, would you agree that they had no need to justify their laws to anyone else? As to who is admitted, it has nothing to do with a person being a danger; it is purely and simply an effort to keep the ratio of Jews:gentiles as high a possible. There is no evidence of my being a danger to Israel in any way but for me to get citizenship would be quite difficult. However, if I were to convert kihalakah, I could come in as a matter of right.

As to Hebron 1. I don't ignore it; I just don't think it relevant to the present discussion. 2. As usual, zionists play up the numbers so often it's hard to believe them when they are telling the truth. A number of Jews died, but by no means the whole population. Many escaped. As to Jews who were expelled by other countries, crimes by others in no way affect your culpability when you act. Check out the logical fallacy "tu quoque".

'serious discussions' with Tosefta, and my, my what turmoil already just after the day of atonement. Please, please, T'ragu (relax) the both of you are pretty close in view with regards to the peace process and Israel's compromises, and you both are committed to the Jewish identity and continuity of Israel and the importance of connectedness of the Diaspora. Tosefta seems to be willing to make more concessions with our adversaries, and Danite, you seem to be more of what Tosefta calls, an apologist for Israel. I don't agree particularly to that degree and also Tosefta is not really arrogant, as he's somewhat honest with his commentary. But I wouldn't exempt the Palestinians in anyway as a "liberation movement" because of the occupation when the majority are really not behind their totalitarian activities and want dialogue at the peace table. P.S. I believe that this summer in Israel I saw an old photograph of Jabotinsky with a Hagannah group. Was he Danite part of Hagannah first?

What do you do when an apologist is UNABLE to read straight and understand fine details? Can you argue with him? On what basis? Logic doesn`t work! What do you do when a Jewish Apologist does not know Judaism? He read something about it, but does not understand its real content. Here are a few examples, for reading-incomprehension and for Judaic shallowness: 1. "Today, Senator Fulbright would not have said that [Jews control the Senate] because everybody knows that the Jewish Lobby controls the US Congress on Israel-related issues. "In 1997, Fortune magazine asked Congressmen to rank the "25 most powerful" lobbying organizations in DC. In 2005, the National Journal did the same. Both times, AIPAC came in 2nd - ahead of, for instance, the AFL-CIO and the NRA, but behind the AARP." - Wikipedia" - Tosefta (with Wikipedia source in the original message) "Tosefta reasoning?? You claim as proof that the "jews sontrol congress" because "everybody knows" they do.Is that what you call reasoning??LOL" - Danite Of course, Danite the apologist could not remain silent when the well known fact about AIPAC was stated. Could say that his rage blinded him to the evidence cited? The problem is that his rage blinds him to what is actually said on a REGULAR basis. Here is another appalling example: 2. On YOM KIPPUR DAY (1:38 pm Quebec time) I get the following SHAMEFUL post from Danite: "Is that before or after the "Yidden" accept responsibility for the death of jesus christ as you claim and finally admit they forced hitlers hand as you claim." - Danite Never mind that the accusations are false, and based on Danite's reading-comprehension problem. But what Jew would dare to make the accusation on Yom Kippur, even if true? What are the customs of Yom Kippur, not to ask forgiveness from your fellow Jews so that you will stand cleaner before the Heavenly Court? What is the meaning of Yom Kippur even for a Jewish ignorant, just to fast? I was taken aback by this appalling post, and refrained from answering until the end of the day. I then posted a hint to the ignorant Jew (in the name of the Archangel Uriel): "For filing charges against Tosefta on Yom Kippur, Danite will be called up to serve as a witness in the Heavenly Court by next Rosh Hashana, year 5769." One cannot expect a true ignorant to get the hint, as I learned the next day when I received the following: "That you wish death on someone ,on Yom Kippur yet, shows what a pathetic coward you are.It also shows to what degree you feel weak before me that you must engage in such things." - Danite Danite the ignoramus apparently believes that Yom Kippur ends at midnight.. Actually, he also believes that the judgment period continues further: "Hurry for the gates dont close untill succot." Danite the ignoramus never understood what the prayer of "Neilah" (closing of the gates) was at the end of Yom Kippur, or how one`s fate is considered to be "sealed" on Yom Kippur. (On Sukkot, according to the Rabbis, the world is judged on water, i.e. rain, but no more personal fate.) He also has some delusions of power too, or else he would not have appointed himself a Defender of a Faith he barely knows. Rest assured, Mr. non-entity, nobody is afraid of you. I wish there was something to fear. Perhaps having you here would have contributed something. (continued)

It is my firm believe that freedom means the right to do really stupid and self-destructive things. That's the way that evolution leads to the improvement of the species. So when Hamas insists on leading the palestinian people to misery and destruction, it is their Allah-given right to be as stupid as they are pathetic.

Damned if I know. It just happened. Israel started a war it didn't want and ended up controlling the West Bank and Gaza. This was a result, it was not a goal. Since then it has not been able to give those lands back to those who live there. It is impossible to claim that SOME Israelis did not want want that. It is also impossible to claim that MOST Israelis did not want either results. What cannot be denied is that Israel has spent 40 years occupying, and evermore oppressing the West Bank and Gaza. So what DOES Israel want? Why cannot Israelis be honest? Why can't they decide? The solution is either set the Palestinians free, or exterminate them. Israel needs to do one or the other. Otherwise the mutual suffering will only continue. What is the determination of the soul of Israel? It is not my choice. It is not the choice of Palestine. I am an observer, and Palestine is too weak to matter. All that matters is Israel survive, and the struggle end.

Israel has no military options. Hamas can not be eliminated. Even if every Hamas leader is killed, Hamas would simply be replaced by an even more dangerous and secretive organization. The only way to eliminate Hamas and its successors militarily is to kill every Arab between the Med Sea and the Jordan River. Are you prepared to do that? Are you prepared for the very deadly consequences if Israel actually tried that? This is the reality Israelis can not seam to understand. By Israelis mistreating the Arabs for 60+ years, the Arabs have been back into a corner where their only option is to kill as many Israelis as possible since negotiations absolutely do NOT work. Before you claim they do, then ask yourself why the settlers are still in the WB. Israels ACTIONS tell the Arabs this is a fight to the death and the simple reality is one day the slow war will explode and Israel will cease to exist. If you do not want Israel to go away then have unconditional negotiations.

Israel has, since the spring of 1967, commanded it's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. This 'occupation' is not an invention of the occupied. Nor is it a construct of the liberal media. It is a fact which Israel has spend billions of dollars to maintain. Today, there are thousands of Israeli soldiers enforcing this occupation. There is no way that the occupation is an invention of the Palestinians, liberals, leftists or the International Islamic Conspiracy (as revealed in the Protocols of the Elders of Islam). It, the Occupation, is a fact which Israel has insisted upon, and which it maintains to this day. Why then, is there any dispute about this 'fact'? If the Occupation does not exist, then why are there Israelis in the West Bank? If the Occupation does not exist, then why can Gazans not enter and leave their homeland without Israeli approval? Can any of the lunatics who insist the situation vis Palestine is wholesome and gentle explain this?

"Of course, Hamas has no right to terrorize the civilian population of Israel. Suicide bombing is a crime against humanity and forbidden to all." - Tosefta As would any attack against civilians in the oppressing nation. But what about the US and British terror bombing of Germany and Japan? "Hamas is not bound by the Geneva Convention, which no Palestinian government ever signed, only by Customary International Law." - Tosefta Israel also rejects any binding international law. Thus, because Israel does not feel bound by international law, then those it opposes are not (by I presume mutual agreement) bound by international law. Israel exempts itself from international law, and Hamas like wise does so. This is both a shame, and a fact. I live in a nation which has nothing but contempt for international law and common decency. Thus I have no moral advantage over Israel. At least I am not such a hypocrite as to demand that Hamas behave better than the US and Israel.

So, if it is working so well for India, why are the terrorists still blowing up trains? Ass.

My dog Dumbite craves a lot of attention, which I am too short of time to give him. I am looking for an adoptive family for him. Dumbite is a very loyal dog. He will follow you wherever you go, even chase after your car. (He is in excellent physical shape.) You can see it in his behavior in the last few days. Give him attention, and he will be quiet and loving. If you can't, Dumbite will bark endlessly, as he is doing here. Only very loving people with lots of time on their hands should apply. Dumbite is not too smart, and seems to be unable to learn new tricks although he is not that old. His previous owner never sent him to dog college, so his repertoire of tricks is limited, but he can still be entertaining. If you have little kids at home, they will be delighted with Dumbite. He can be just at their level. Warning: If you just want to get a dog for free, this may not be a good deal for you. Dumbite can be very obsessive, and just the dog-psychologist will cost you more than the price of a comparable dog.

The Palestinian 17 yr old is a "child" for you. But the 50+ Israelis treated for shock are not. Even though they are 18 yr old children and just started the army. For your information many of them, if not most, were girls and the qassams hit their tents while they were asleep. One soldier whose leg had to be amputated was to have joined the army orchestra as a TRUMPET PLAYER - I bet that makes him a big Rambo-type killing machine in your eyes.

I will forgive, even this grevious sin of yours.Hurry for the gates dont close untill succot.Hurry that you may be forgiven.In the spirit of the times I ask for your forgivness as well, will you give??Lets see how deeply jewish YOU really are.You know what it says about he who refuses to forgive?? "he shall be cut off from israel" Hurry Tosefta Hurry.

It's a conspiracy,motivated by pieces of this and that psychology!It's the conflict:"Between the seed of the woman and the serpent."Government,isn't the means of peace,but the :Receptionist!People,need to learn this.

Yes thats what he did,I am glad he has exposed the true depth of his degeneracy for all to see.Note his arrogance to even presume to take the place of G-d. he is quite insane isnt he.

Jabotinsky did not propose resisting the british by any means.he was highly ambivilant about the Irgun (which was not under official Revisionist control by the way)Jabotinsky remained in fact pro british, he believed the better instincts of the british would prevail in the end.jabotinsky was cricial of attacks on arab civilians and washington would have hardly condoned suicide bombings.You are really mixed up these days.

You too are judging me?? What is it with you two losers anyway?? I must frustrate you both alot dont I?? LOL

The Greeks are racists and anti semites, you guys hate everybody.This is well known.When will you give Thrace back to Bulgaria?? When will you issue passports to the Turkish minority in your country. Please you Greeks are the biggest racists and warmongers.

Uri Avneri the famous peace activist was a member of lechi as was the founder of the israeli communist party.Yitzchak Shamir and Geulah Cohen were alao members.As well lechi in 44 stayed away from sterns earlier far out policies and they became a fine patriotic freedom fighting organisation dedicated to the sacred cause of our people for our human rights.

The co-operation proposed by lechi to the germans was a fucntion of the pathological ahtred of Stern for the british.So yes it was an extension of his anto british sentiment.Also I repeat you are confusing the Irgun and lechi.irgun agreed to a ceasfire in 39 with the british, stern broke away from the irgun and kept fighting.Even when it was reborn in 44 lechi stayed away from attacking arabs, I am sorry if that bothers you but itstrue.They chose lord cunnigham in egypt to assinate as sign of their solidarity with ME wide rebeallion against the britsih. The two jewish heroes who were hung for it in Cairo were supported by a crowd of some 10000 Egyptian nationalists.In 1947 when the arabs attacked the british were leaving the lechi had no choice but to fight the arabs.The Lechi is very little known group, their politics were far out, they had far left and far right elements, it was more of a politcaly psychological movement.it was a type of person who went for Lechi...cont

Jabotinsky dies in 1940, Lechi was formed at the end of 39, I doubt he had much to say about them.The lechi and the Irgun were not the same organisation.They had very different goals.The Irgun between 1936-39 was mostly concerned with retaliating against arabs for their atrocities.The Lechi was almost 100% focused on the British untill 47 when the british withdrew and the arabs began attacking.The Lechi was deluded enough to think if they refrained from attacking arabs that they could form a common Jewish arab anti imperialist front in the ME.Please read more.

Did I say admired them?? better read the post again.I was discussing the facts re their attitude towards the arabs, sorry if that bothers you.Secondly the first incarnation of Lechi under its founder Yair stern was political looney tune no doubt, however it was reformed in 44 and was a fine patriotic freedom fighting organisation thereafter.

Your threats and libels only go to show I really do have you scared dont I?? Your outrage is false and self serving,and your arrogance to presume to pass judgement on me shows to what deluded states of mind you are in.You are the one in need of repentance,prayer and tzedaka.You should be ashamed of your craven ways.You may be sure that I will continue to expose your anti semitsm and hatred of israel, and to mock the cult of arrogance you have built around your self.You make me laugh.Now ask forgiveness of me its not too late, the gates dont close untill Succot.I will forgive, that I may find merit.Go ahead, ask and I will forgive.

What a load of crap you wrote: The Palestinian Lies!!

Hey Dutch, what kinda grass are you smoking?? "Good people will only take so much from them." Unlike you Dutch, this is MY neighnourhood and I havent seen any good people around us. To the north, we had Hizbollah terrorists suddenly launch rockets into our towns, as a diversion, while they sent a unit in to blow up 3 of our soldiers and kidnap another 2. Friendly! Then they launched another 4000 rockets in. This was using weapons provided by Syria & funded by Iran. Out of the 1000 or so ppl killed in Leb, 600 of them were Hiz terrorists. The IDF warned civillians to leave the areas before strikes. In the territories, almost every day we have mortar shells, qassam rockets, drive-by shootings, ambush shootings, molotov cocktails, rock-lobbing and stabbings on our civillian population!! It seems to me that you dont know much about our neighbourhood, so why dont you just carrying smoking your stuff!

historical facts.The early zionists starting with Theodor Herzl,were cold calculating characters who were completely indifferent to the Palestinians.Land grabðnic cleansing.Herzl told the europeans that zionists would be a bulwark against barbarism(The Jewish State(Der Judenstaat,1896)tr.by Harry Zohn,1970,p.52)Herzl viewed the acquisition of land and the expulsion of the Palestinians as complementary(The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl ed.Raphael Patai,1960,p1195) The zionists called not only for Palestine(during the negotiationswith Balfour& later at Versailles)plus a strip of southern Lebanon and a strip east of the Jordan river(Foreign Relations of the United States:Paris Peace Conference,1919,vol4,pp.161-162 Re: daily incursions into Gaza to stop Quassams,that is not the purpose,the purpose is to get Hamas to surrender.Simple solution to Quassams.End the siege,end the Occupation.Negotiate with Hamas.

an excellent suggestion. Tosefta surely could teach them a thing or two.

This is what George Washington, Sam Adams, Charles deGaul, Michael Collins, Zeev Jabotinsky, and Yair Stern all argued

What amazes me is people like you ignore the fact that the arabs massacared the entire Jewish population of CHEVRON - YEARS BEFORE ISRAEL EXISTED It also makes me wonder when you ignore the fact that numerous arab countries have expelled their Jews - seized their homes/land/posssesions and nobody said a word. Are you seeking reality - or to simply promote your racist fantasies.

Very well said - and welcome to these boards! Your posts are always spot on!

1,134 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000. The fact that more Palestinian chilren are killed than Israeli ones is due to the fact that Hamas et al pick up the children from all the schools and bus-load them to "the front line" where they lob rocks and generally act as human shields for the terrorists. Furthermore, even 11 & 12 yr olds brandish kalachnikiovs and M-16's. If you think this is fiction, then you dont know the hell what you're talking about.

It is the Palestinians who initiate violence and live for violence, by" suicide-homocide bombings, drive-by shootings, ambush-shootings, molotov coktails, stabbings, qassam rockets and in general any possible attempt to terrorize the Israeli population. NO COUNTRY in the world would sit tight and let this happen - every govt's 1st priority is to attempt to assure its citizen's personal security. The Palestinians are living with the consequences of their actions.

We're getting to the point where your proposal will probably turn to reality - in in gradual steps as you say. Hamistan claims their suicide bombings are "self-defence" - what a load of BSers!!! If they were not firing on IDF, throwing molotov cocktails and lobbing qassams every day, the IDF would not have any reason to be anywhere near them!

It is not the same as the preposterous "Right of Return" demanded by Abbas (which will wreck any chance of a 2-state solution). Israel's Law of Return simply states the conditions of citizenship offered to any Jewish person. Israel was, after all, established by resolution of the United Nations as a national homeland for the Jewish people, so it does not have to be justified to you. Others in need are welcomed to become citizens of Israel, e.g., hundreds of Darfur refugees Israel just accepted as citizens, though they are not Jewish and from an Arab country at war with Israel (Sudan) - how many has your country accepted? ZERO, right? However, NO COUNTRY, not Israel, the US nor ANYWHERE accepts refugees who are a danger to the state. Example: Czechs excluding pro-Nazi "Sudeten Germans" who fled. Or Israel's refusal to allow citizenship to US mafia kingpin Meyer Lansky, although he was Jewish. Likewise, ultra-violent Arabs of wild so-called refugee camps in Lebanon would endanger Israel.

Which is what everyone has been saying all along! Good job!!

The Arabs en masse decided on a massacre in lieu of peace and seperate states. When they and their mercenaries lost their war they still refused to recognise any borders. You people got well over 80% of the mandate and most of you already live there. You are "entitled" to the amount of land you were prepared to give the Jews. Now you are " entitled" to the same as Hamas the elected government of Palestine is prepared to give the Jews. If you want to play tough guys---

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906463.html

Indrajaya, Israelis not just expect, but demand, that Hammas lays down weapons and Palestinians engage in non-violent protest. It's so much easier to kill Palestinian children when the adults aren't firing. It's all about making the occupied territory a safer place for Israeli thugs and settlers to steal land and torture and murder people. It will probably also help accelerate the land theft and ethnic cleansing, which the vast majority of Israelis agree with. And if some Palestinian children are killed, well, from the Israeli point of view, so much the better.

Paranoid little freak!! As if!!

"LEHI- (Hebrew) - Acronym for Lohamei 'Herut Yisrael - Freedom Fighters of Israel (also LHI)" The Zionism and Israel Information Center http://www.zionism-israel.com/index.html

beggars can't be choosers.

Syria and Meshal run the Gaza. Not Hamas.

Matt, "hamas: and israel has the right to destroy you by all means" What a load of hogwash. The only thing that concerns me regarding that claim of entitlement to resist (which I do not dispute in principle) is which area Hamas claims as occupied. I have often seen Hamas claim that Israel proper (Tel Aviv, West Jerusalem, etc.) is occupied Palestinian territory. If they plan to subvert every peace plan until there is no more Israel then; May they burn in hell! If they just want to live in peace with equality regardles of race, creed or religion in the pre 1967 borders that is defensible. But they don't need homicide bombers to accomplish that. In fact, their Qassams and bombs have only forestalled that over the years. The problem seems to be that they are not willing to live in a society where non-Hamas supporters have as much say in government as Hamasians. They are as much against Abbas as they are against Israel. I cannot support the contention that they may use any means

Why 1948, not the Balfour Declaration? If Israel accepted 1948 and the Arabs did not (and launched an actual all-out war) then the 1948 definition can be legally altered as it has for countless other countries throghout history. "The Jews are entitled to exactly what was given them in 1948. The rest which they have sneaked into their land arsenal should be returned."

One would have thought that after spawning an SS site and creating both Extremist Arabs and Self hating Humanist Jews : one would have the good graces to slidder away and not be heard from again. I am still hearing that Humanist mumbo jumbo inspired by these Meretz and PISS NOW folks and the spawnee is still peddling appeaing and soothing sounds towards the Arabs of all stripes.(THERE is no moderate Arab). I am still hearing that the Balis are a Nation. Has not Wesley told you what your so called moderate Arabs(Hizbulla sympathizers) have been telling you on SS. You are just nothing but a hypocrite turning on and off your crocodile tears at a whim. I hope that you at least made a stab at asking for forgiveness.

I am no apponinte of Hamas they are as wrong as IDF using violence to protect the illegal settlements. But I do remember reading an article where 50+ IDF solders were considered wounded due to shock when a Qassam rocket hit them. I also remember in the IDF response they killed a 17 year old child... I don't think he died of his wounds but of laughter when he was told the 50+ wounded IDF solders.

...are working so hard to keep Israel occupied w/ Gaza I can't see any partner for peace other than the de facto man in charge here in the mandate, Abbas. That's pretty slim pickins, like some of our recent elections. G-d help us all. "Days before the explosives belt was found, the Hamas government in Gaza called for Israel to reach a cease-fire in Gaza. A possible explanation for this can be found in the split within Hamas between the organization's leadership in Gaza and its leaders in exile in Damascus." Meshaal has been running everything Hamas does since Haniyeh was elected, so what else is new? Haniyeh couldn't make the smallest agreement w/ Abbas w/o Meshaals approval. This is too funny, not only is Gaza NOT occupied by the Israelis, neither is it occupied by its OWN "leadership."

Then I should hope you'd hold much animosity towards those Palestinians and Arabs who have triumphed terrorist murder against Israelis, holding Arabs in Arab camps for decades, all making it possible only for Arab refugees to someday enter "Palestine".

So you are siding with the Jews kicked / chased out of their homes in Hebron, Ramallah, Jericho, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere? "Vik, just imagine you arrive at your house by midnight one day and there is somebody there that refuses to leave. You talk politely, then, unsucessfully, you resort to the law, then you cry. Imagine your four children homeless, in the street, starving, crying in despair to enter home. Then you see, through the windows, the occupiers sleeping in your bed, using your kitchen, his children playing with your kid`s toys. Is it possible to keep emotion controlled? Wouldn`t you do everything to recover your previous life and be happy again?"

I understand the Pal frustration but you can't blow up a bus and then claim moral high ground due to the occupation. That's like fighting bigotry with bigotry. In that case both sides are wrong! Pals have the right to fight for injustice just like South Africans but you can not act like the oppressor; otherwise you are no different then them.

Let's talk about it, a suicide attack to kill, maim and injure hundreds of Jews on their Holiest Day in the year... and that was the general idea when an explosive belt filled with the deadliest of materials was found in a house in Tel Aviv not far from the centre, and most probably meant to be blown up in the Great Synagogue close to where the deadly belt was found where people at Prayer would have been massacred and mutilated to bits, Let them remember the Late President Sadat's words when Egypt attacked Israel on Yom Kippur Day in 1973.... that he knew it would be his End for it has been said that to attack the Holy Land on such a Day would only bring the greatest misfortune to the one who decided upon it. Let the so-called 'Palestinians' tread where angels fear to tread.... and let us see the result.

No realism - the joke's on you. The dont' really care a damn abut them. They feel it's their inherent right to keep Palestinian refugees in camps to continue to constitute a reason for revilingIsrael, to deflect from their own tyrannical reigns, to keep their own people ignorant and uneducated and to continue blaming Israel for the woes of the poos Arabs. Let's talk humanity here and not humiliaton and honor - the arabs sacrificed not their own, but the Palestinian's lives for the sake of upholding the eternal grudge against Israel. Thank God Israel never treated Jewish refugees in this manner - one of the big differences between your people and mine. And the Palestinians are still acting like suckers.

Over 20% of Israel's population is non-Jewish (mostly Muslim). Can you tell me where in the Muslim world (beside Iran, where there are 20,000 Jews) there are any Jewish communitties. How many Mulsim Countires refuse Jews to enter? In how many is it illegal to sell property to Jews (on pain of death) - all countries where Jews lived for thousands of years. So please don't come here with your Jewish/Gentile nonsense.

Firstly, double standards: it is ridiculous to expect the other side to respect the lives of your children, when you demonstrate that you don't respect the lives of theirs - and that can be applied both to the Palestinians and Israelis. In negotiation, both sides will start from a hard-line position, and then work towards some sort of compromise, but if that fails, then a neutral referee may be required, so that points of International Law can be applied over emotions and tradition. I therefore expect Hamas to adopt a line about clearing all Jews out of the area in the same way that some Jews want all Palestinians driven into the sea. Ignore the zealots on both sides, and deal with the pragmatic. The longer the problem lasts, the more there will be of the former, less of the latter. That's why Hamas won the election, isn't it?

FYI, 99 per cent of Palestinian strive against occupation is passive; you just hear what makes the news. Also what you ignore is the fact that Israel's army has killed tens of thousands; the vast majority of who were civilians, or performing non-violent activities against occupation. I didn't think anyone discussed the historical right in Palestine here; but as always everyone considered pro-Israel must have this as a starting point. Killing civilians is immoral and illegal. I have the courage to say this loudly. Do you have the same courage to condemn the IDF's brutal conduct against civilians? You must accept that ALL human beings are EQUAL to sustain such a position, by the way.

Realy? I have taught in school, my kids have studied in school - first I hear about this? Can you please provide me with a source? On the other hand, have you seen any Palestinian schoolbooks lately? Israel is not even mentioned on the map, which shows Israel as part of the "country" called Palestine" with all Israeli place names replaced by imaginary Arabic names. Howz that for teaching kids fantasy?

It seems that they could not swallow the fact that it was Israel's move ie - it was not the result of a great bloody military victory - that would have been too much humiliation. But the trut is they once again missed a golden opportunity to improve te lives of their people and start doing being positive and creative rather than destructive and violent. Had they chosen the peace path, nobody would have assisted more than Israel, and perhaps by today they may have had their port, open borders, etc. t's time to knock off your drivel.

You are so pompous - of course you have no idea of the way the JEwish mind works - Ben Gurion accepted the partition plan becasue a bird in thehand is worth far more than two in the bush - which is what the Palestinians are waiting for ratherindefinitely wouldn't you say. They too might have had a bird in the hand - on several occasions. As to the second part of the sentence - perhpas BG knew the Arabs wouldn't be smart enough to accept theri share and that is why he said it. Had the Arabs accepted their part - and not repeatedly attacked Israel at regular intervals, well perhaps the 1948 borders would sti;ll be in place today. Re the Gaza withdrawal - it is irrelevant what Israel's reason was for withdrawing - the fact is that the Palestinians had a golden opportunity to get down to state building, to start the ballrolling, to prove their sincerity instead of insisting on continuing their attacks on Israel. con't

brothers when they ally with the west.why do they hate democracy?why do they hate the usa and israel so much?........james 3:16 for where envying and strife is,there is confusion and every evil work........why are they jealous?they have oil and huge lands given by the uk and france.who settled in america,australia,etc.?why do indians or aborigenes are so peaceful about it?if they can do it,palestinians can do it also.....they just don't want to be controlled by israel.

The Lechi was not the Irgun, you need to learn somemore.The comments stand.

it was you under the guise of the "archangel uriel" that you last night wished death for me. That you whine and complain about something which not a charge" but a statement of fact and try play the hurt religious one is of course a testament to your degenerate and pathetic nature.Haaretz please print I have a right to respond to his libels, either that or remove his posts.See his post of last "Uriel" and se this one here today.Thank you

Israeli schoolbooks say that there were three causes of the Arabs leaving in 1948. One was fear of war, second was encouragement by the attacking armies and the third was encouragement by Israel. If you accept what the schoolbooks say, kindly accept the correct version and not your own version adapted to make you happy.

Invaders ALWAYS find it easy to get over having taken things from other people. That doesn't speak to the rightness of the situation; more to their moral blindness.

There is no reason for other countries to take them in; they feel (as I do) that those people have the inherent right to return to their home. As I have asked other people, why should someone whose family was driven out in the First Century have the right to return but not a person whose family was driven out in 1948?

The real Fraud is Israel and that's coming in loud and clear these days with its cruel and oppressive policies in the Territories and its unlawful aggression against the sovereign state of Lebanon and recently Syria. No one should be defending this country but condemning its policies of aggression. They have become the neighbors from hell today in the Middle East and I can't see how they can stay in the neighborhood be- having as they do. Good people will only take so much from them. Dutch

Nice try, but textbooks in Israeli schools show that the were driven out to improve the Jew/gentile basis of the new country.

If all is happy in India, How come there are riots that results in thousands killed in a days work? happy happy happy, India the best country in the world! When is the next population transfer going to be?

Hamas is very much contradicting itself. On the one hand they want to form a unity government with Abbas, the representative of the PA and the majority of Palestinian people, who has signed agreements with Israel based on recognition and cease all use of violence. If Hamas states that they wish to join the political landscape in the region, meaning contribute to the peace talks, how can they continue planning sending suicide bombers and Qassams to the Negev? They're nothing to gain and other Palestinians maintain this same accusation. How can one build trust amongst people when they'll be both dependent on each other. Hamas only has to gain if they come to terms with accepting total renouncing of militant protest, it doesn't help bring about a civil society in the ME. If Hamas wants to attend the Washington summit, this is the minimum requested. Some moderation has occurred but not to the fullest extent given the climate of global terrorism.

If that is the basis of the restriction, it is odd that I (who have shown no evidence of wanting to kill an Israeli child) am similarly bound. It ils against gentiles.

Locking up the jihadis incommunicado in Guantanamo is outside the Geneva Convention, too. I support it, and so do most Americans. It is part of defeating the tactic of assymetric warfare. Is the US in company with the Nazis? NO. Israelis and Nazis both have had the world-leading air force pilots, battlefield neurosurgeons and nuclear physicists. SO WHAT??? The answer to assymmetric warfare is to change the rules of the game to make terrorism a disadvantage rather than an asset. That means not letting jihadiis (and their families) be able to hide behind the Geneva Convention while ignoring it in their own tactics. And for your information, Germany decided at the Wannsee Conference to exterminate all "inferior races", Russians, Jews, Gypsies - it had nothing to do with your claimed Geneva Convention non-observance by Russia, who DID return the Nazi POWs (though, understandably, not the 250,000 German butchers they captured at Stalingrad, who lived out their days in Siberian coal mines).

To "be called up to serve as a witness in the Heavenly Court" means death, so that the witness can go up there to testify. I assume you know of the common interpretation of Rosh Hashana as "Day of Judgment".

Boycott I am tolking in general when people REF to Wiki I really don?t think people should REF to Wiki ? yes it is fast but how reliable is it when every day someone makes a change to it?s content I have made changes in Wikipedia, there is no trouble in doing so, I made a change in Hebrew, English, and polish, which I have no knowledge of its language, but of course when I see Wiki refers you to Akra in Ghana and not to AKKA in Israel on a cretin subject I have to change it! Boycott there are a lot of mistakes in Wiki, I am not saying that what you are saying isn?t true, but the word Lehi for example ? does not make any sense to me in English or in Hebrew!

Because contrary to what you believe, most Europeans support the Palestinians over the Jews because our medias don't have corrupted or biased based reporting as the American one does. We all know the Palestinians were the majority in that land until 1948, and the semantics Jews use to claim the land had no people blah blah. Trust me, your arrogance and continued illegal occupation of Palestinian territories is repugnant and does not go unnoticed here in Greece and most of Europe.

We expected what the Balfour declaration offered - we got a bit of marsh and a piece of desert. Our people were desperate. We took it. I understood you were an academic. You don't talk of 'what ifs' when you study history, Lakshmi and you don't make things up and offer them as proof. You should have higher standards than all this groundless speculation that you offer so guilelessly. The 'incursions' are to protect our citizens from the missiles. Chapter closed.

The daily half dozen missiles target civilians. Mortar shells shot at random target civilians. Homicide/suicide/exploding people bombs target civilians. Roadside snipers target civilians. Terrorist acts target civilians. It's this casual, brutal, unrelenting, unashamed targeting of our civilians that we've been subject to from the beginning.

The post break up of two lovers of Ben Gurion (current Toseafta) and Danite is getting real down ugly.ONe wannabee INTELLECTIUAl and ONE IGNORAMUS.(I will let either of you decisde who is who) An Arab and a self proclaimed Leftist Humanist. What a joke. You are both pathetic imitations of whoever you are supposed to be and certainly pathetic human beings. Tosefta you will not even be judged as you are not Jewish and Danite has a lot to answer for. PATHETIC.

Partition Plan willingly because they told themselves and this is documented: we'll take this now,we'll worry about the remainder later.In any case, 56%land for a minority of 33% is unheard of and was unjust. Re: withdrawal from Gaza by Sharon,it was to consolidate in West Bank and return at a future date,which they did surrpetitiously and now openly with the siege of Gaza.The daily 'incursions' are proof.

.. I didn't notice. Perhaps you should point it out to me. But you give me no chance to insult you. Better say SOMETHING on the subject, ANYTHING. Then I could oppose it and soften you up with an insult. It is not fair for you just to insult me but say nothing on the topic.

"india is vigilant as are the generals in kashmir"etc etc etc etc lakshmi what is the point of all this silly stuff.one has only to look at the numbers of troops based in muslim kashmir to understand that you are going nowhere. by the way your soldiers are not exactly imbued with jeffersonian ideals.to put it brutally they rape the local women with astonishing frequency.

Any people is entitled to use all means at its disposal to fight alien occupation and control. This is completely acceptable under international law and principles of morality. The only limitation on this is that such means MUST not target innocent civilians. So, despite the brutal murder of thousands of innocents, and the continued repression by Israel, the Palestinian resistance must avoid killing civilians. But no one can deny them using violent means to fight a brutal occupation of their land and life. It is a matter of means, not principle.

the true figure is 150 million muslims in india. he who know not and knows not he knows not he is a fool.shun him. lakshmi this is such a foolish statement and can be so easily disproved that one wonders at your sheer stupidity.how can one trust what you say after you make such an elementary mistake?

So they had their chance in 1948, 1967, 2000 and blew it each time. They don't have to sit in Tel aviv - there can be two states living alongside - Israelis in their country and Palestinians in theirs. What the hell is wrong with that? Plenty of Jews lived where Jews dare not tread today, because they were murdered by the Jordanians in 1948. We got over it, so can you.

The refugees would not exist if the oil rich arab countries and Jordan/Lebanon had cared a shit for their Arab brethren, given them citizenship and the chance to rebuild their lives - just as Israel did for the almost million Jews kicked out of Arab countries at about the same time. Instead these Arab refugees were used as a pawn to continue Arab belligerence against Israel - without a thought for the people paying with their miserable lives - the more miserable the better. This is still happening in Lebann and is an absolute disgrace and blight on the Arab people.

The issue is far simpler than that realism - Arab leaders ordered Arabs out of Issrasel so that they could "throw the Jews into the sea" sme 500,000 por sods, some who had never ever seen a JEwish soldiers, followed the orders like sheep and moved out, having been promised they could return within a few days to resume their lives as if nobody had been slaughtered. These guys got screwed by their own leaders. On the other hand, many of those who actually owned property decided to take their chances and stay, relying on the promises of Jews that they would not be harmed if they did. These are the lucky ones who got to keep their property and are now living in a thriving democracy, enjoying all the benefits thereof (and probably blessing their ancestors for not listening to empty promises). This is something that is hard for you to understand, I know, but that's the way it was. con't

Israel is not going to allow into her borders those who believe it is the highest of virtues to murder Israeli children. Arab refugees will go to the Palestinian areas. It should be obvious by now.

"For filing charges against Tosefta on Yom Kippur, Danite will be called up to serve as a witness in the Heavenly Court by next Rosh Hashana, year 5769." - Tosefta

In my original post, I pointed out to you just who your immediate cousins were in the employment of the rationale you offered for committing atrocities. You evaded the point. It may be that you are a decent person otherwise -- but you should be able to see the moral sink your support for Israel leads you into. The rationalizations you offer are indeed just those offered by the Nazis for their crimes. They weren't valid then, and they aren't valid now.

"No, I don`t hate them, but you clearly hate the Jews." Margie. After just 5 words you pulled out the "Anti-Semite Card.Now that is simplistic. ""Israel made a HISTORIC COMPROMISE when it vacated Gaza and gave it to the Pals." Margie You then State in your post 141 "Why we left is hardly relevant" But of course it is no longer relevant, as it destroys your simplistic argument.

They are the topic and they can and have spoken repeatedly for themselves. Your lot already refused all the West bank and Gaza( 3 nos of Khartoum) and 90+% of the W.Bank + all Gaza+ land swaps. A modicum of honesty would also mention other issues than land alone which you "forget" to mention. So I repeat why not come back with what Hamas WILL accept,the bottom line,for a lasting peace not a hudna,instead a "general consensus" of others than Hamas themselves.

Danite you are not quite correct.--- "The level of your ignorance istruly laughable.Firstly they were the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, secondly untill partition they did nnot attack arabs at all , as they hoped to create a common arab jewish anti imperialist front in the ME.Thye concentrated all their attacks on the british.I suggest you get an education before you start spewing.Once again you have been exposed for the hater that you are."Danite". For you Danite re your "heroes",(collaborators), In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations. On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons

My point is that Moslems belong in Israel/Palestine just as much as the descendants of Germanic tribes belong in France and Germany or Moslems in Kosovo.

Yeah, great, lets get ready for yet more suicide bombs & targeting specifically of civilians....... Do hamas et al really believe they will get a prosperous, independant palestine by this behaviour??? Primitive, savage, & pathetic.

More importantly, the refugees would not exist if Israel did not discriminate on the basis of religion, and allowed people entry regardless of religious status. I have always found it amusing how people can justify a person whose ancestors left in the year 70 having the right to return, but not a person whose ancestors left in the year 1948.

You're the first to claim the German Nazis worried about whether they were committing war crimes. Where did that come from???? You aren't seriously suggesting that rules of war and humanitarian conduct only apply to Israel but not to the Arabs, are you? Formal renunciation by Hamas relieves Israel of any obligation -- Gaza's choice. And tell us again how Israel stuffed the Arabs into the Gaza strip -- if you look at a map of the original partition, you can see that that piece of land was created by the UN partition. It was under Egypt's control from 1948 (when they conquered it) through 1967. Israel didn't stuff anybody anywhere. Population density of metro Tel Aviv has 5 times as many people living on the same land area as the Gaza strip, so much for Gaza having "the highest population density on Earth", an absurd myth. Gazans could have created a Hong Kong, and instead decided to create a North Korea: their choice. Palestinian kultur never accepts responsibility for its actions.

you may well think that you are rather busy with neighbouring enemies that want to hold you warmly by the throat. not a bit of it.the two geniuses look thousands of miles away and abuse a nation of 5.5 million jews.how clever is that fellas?

sri lanks does not like its larger neighbour.in fact a guard of honour thumped rajiv gandhi on the head with his rifle.

not very friendly to india.in fact gave india a clip on the ear in 1962.very threatening indeed. part of the reason india turned from effete russia and grabbed the hands of the usa.far bigger threat to india then pakistan

local population,2.strengthening relations across the line of control,3.economic development of the region,4.ensuring good governance,where the generals & govt.of India are vigilant that there are no abuses of power etc.Totally different situation from israel,where the problem is at the level of UN& the world community also,not just a domestic problem within israel.israel has not obeyed a single one of the UN.resolutions,it has continued an illegal Occupation and continues to flout International Law.This is the longest Occupation of recent times.

a muslim nation formed because of india and a jewish general named jacob.bangladesh hates india and vice versa. further east is burma which is not known for its kind generals.rather the opposite.

the terrible twins look to the west and see pakistan which threatened to nuke india and afghanistan which hates hindus because they are kaffirs. the hindu kush mountains runs through the region.so called "hindu killers".not very nice at all.

place on both sides of the divide in India.This is not official policy,and what happens is between 2 ethnic groups and that too occasionally.Indians have protested those killings,both of Hindus &Muslims,there have been editorials in newspapers & so on.But the point is we have some 400-450 million muslims in India who are quite well settled in India,have lived there for centuries and who are happy to be Indian citizens.And the song the muslim cleric wrote reflects the general ethos of the country:"India,our country,the best country in the world!"Even you jews were welcomed during the diaspora and still are.There is a synagogue in the province of kerala,which shares the same compound as a hindu temple.We are very proud of this tradition.No visitor to India has failed to notice this.We still have problems.I am not in denial.Re:Kashmir,we are in the portion that was assigned to us by the UN.Our PM has initiated a Kashmir Round Table Working Group,consisting mostly of muslims. . .(contd.)

still you do provide endless hours of amusement. now what was your latest piece of rubbish? oh yeah you gave us a lecture on the occupation where you kindly informed us that powerful nations by virtue of their power occupy their neighbours because they can march in at any time.i know you regret that in the cold light of day.more tveira bloopers to come.

theives who stole our land.

The Muslim girls who were raped during the Gujarat riots???? find me one incident where Israelis have raped Arabs?????

What do you do when an apologist is UNABLE to read straight and understand fine details? Can you argue with him? On what basis? Logic doesn`t work! What do you do when a Jewish Apologist does not know Judaism? He read something about it, but does not understand its real content. Here are a few examples, for reading-incomprehension and for Judaic shallowness: 1. "Today, Senator Fulbright would not have said that [Jews control the Senate] because everybody knows that the Jewish Lobby controls the US Congress on Israel-related issues. "In 1997, Fortune magazine asked Congressmen to rank the "25 most powerful" lobbying organizations in DC. In 2005, the National Journal did the same. Both times, AIPAC came in 2nd - ahead of, for instance, the AFL-CIO and the NRA, but behind the AARP." - Wikipedia" - Tosefta (with Wikipedia source in the original message) "Tosefta reasoning?? You claim as proof that the "jews sontrol congress" because "everybody knows" they do.Is that what you call reasoning??LOL" - Danite Of course, Danite the apologist could not remain silent when the well known fact about AIPAC was stated. Could say that his rage blinded him to the evidence cited? The problem is that his rage blinds him to what is actually said on a REGULAR basis. Here is another appalling example: 2. On YOM KIPPUR DAY (1:38 pm Quebec time) I get the following SHAMEFUL post from Danite: "Is that before or after the "Yidden" accept responsibility for the death of jesus christ as you claim and finally admit they forced hitlers hand as you claim." - Danite Never mind that the accusation is false, and based on Danite's reading-incomprehension problem, as will be seen later. But what Jew would dare to make the accusation on Yom Kippur, even if true? What are the customs of Yom Kippur, mister ignoramus, not to ask forgiveness from your fellow Jews so that you will stand cleaner before the Heavenly Court? What is the meaning of Yom Kippur even for a Jewish ignorant, just to fast? I was taken aback by this appalling post, and refrained from answering until the end of the day. I then posted a hint to the ignorant Jew (in the name of the Archangel Uriel): "For filing charges against Tosefta on Yom Kippur, Danite will be called up to serve as a witness in the Heavenly Court by next Rosh Hashana, year 5769." - Tosefta One cannot expect a true ignorant to get the hint, as I learned the next day when I received the following from Danite: "That you wish death on someone ,on Yom Kippur yet, shows what a pathetic coward you are.It also shows to what degree you feel weak before me that you must engage in such things." - Danite The Jewish ignoramus has some delusions too, or else he would not have appointed himself a Defender of a Faith he barely knows. Rest assured, Mr. non-entity, nobody is afraid of you. I wish there was something to fear. Perhaps having you here would have contributed something. (continued)

You clearly don't know how Wikipedia entries are monitored to avoid such errors. Why don't you try to change an entry and see what happens? However, I doubt that you would accept any criticism of matters Israeli, no matter its source. BTW, have you ever tried to research the Stern Gang and Lehi from non-Israeli sources or even Israeli sources? These people were regarded as enemies even by the Zionist leadership at the time.

Interesting view Alan! Do you propose that Palestinian tanks should lift the seize on Tel Aviv and Palestinian soldiers should allow Israeli school children to go to school unharmed ?

"The continued Jewish presence" has now replaced the "land without People' argument used to colonise Palestine. Basically, the use of myths and theology to buttress displacement of Palestinians. Jews had a continued presence in China, India, Yemen, Russia, Poland and the Caucassus for centuries, not only in Palestine.

Poor dear Tosefta is hardly a standard for good manners. He insults his opponents to soften them up as a matter of course. Naturally it's not a successful tactic, but it makes it obvious that he's much less than a gentleman.

Danite please read your history. According to British military reports, the MO of the groups was to bomb and attack Arab market places. As for a Arab-jewish united front, please read Vladimir Jabotinsky's - ideological head of the Irgun and Lehi - essay "The Iron Wall" (We and the Arabs). I suggest you read Jabotinsky's article and military reports about the Irgun and Lehi before you call names.

No, I don't hate them, but you clearly hate the Jews. All war is criminal. Hamas makes war on Israeli civilians daily. That is clearly criminal. Why we left is hardly relevant. And you don't know the details. They could have kept it as the flourishing concern it was when the Jews were there and made something of it. Instead it's a gray brown semi desert now. That kind of destructiveness is its own reward.

That's an exciting innovation. First you herd the Palestinians into an absurdly small strip of desert -- then you announce they're someone else's problem. Why didn't we ever think of that with the Indians? All those reservations we subsidize -- we could just declare they're someone else's responsibility!

I oppose Hamas view that all means are permissible. The so called "sovreignty" is the problem. It comes about at the cost of the Palestinians through occupatuion, settlements and economic deprivation. Israel has not halted expanding settlements in the West Bank - it is still expanding see Israeli Peace Now report on settlements. Whatever problems Hamas might face by a ceasefire is for Hamas to deal with. If Israel is honestly desires peace, it must negotiate with Hamas. Israel cannot give itself the right to occupy, destroy and kill at will and then call the suicide bombers terrorists.

C/FOOL, Labhras, Indrayaya, Durson and their friends by the same standards as sane educated Jews with divergent positions. I would also suggest Tosefta manage their intellectual growth and would be responsible for their general development and manners. Your opinion?

'That wouldn`t be a bad thing. Hamas conduct in refusing Red Cross visits to Shalit and firing Kassams randomly at Israeli civilians has always suggested they reject the Geneva Conventions. But if they`re renouncing it in a formal way, then Israel is not bound in any way either, its a 2-way street...' Remarkably, this is EXACTLY the same argument the Nazis used to justify their treatment of Russian POW's in World War Two, which resulted in the death of another three millions or so. 'Russia hasn't signed the Geneva Convention, so we needn't treat Russian prisoners humanely.' I just thought I'd introduce you to your moral buddies. Illuminating, isn't it?

Boycott Everyone can write in WIKIPEDIA don't you know that, even Lakshmi can write in WIKI and what a wonderful world it would be! I bet you she does! So please don't REF to WIKI!

Then Israel has right to oppose Islamist by all means. Israel has right to enforce Israeli sovereignty by all means.

Hello, e.m. I hadnt seen your post. You are right that more then 70% of Jordan population are Palestinians. Didn?t Jordan seize a big part of what should be the Arab state they refused? I am glad to know such good news:)

'i know the answer, but can any jew hater tell me how cutting off power to gaza is called collective punishment, but sending terrorists into civilian populated areas with the intend of killed as many civilians as possible isnt collective punishment??' Is it your argument that Israel is no better than Hamas? That it need only meet the moral standards set by Hamas? Actually, of course, bombings in Israel are usually called 'terrorism' -- not 'collective punishment.' Would you prefer that Israel's actions be described by the former label? That'd get us away from your perceived 'double standard.'

Interesting how you admire the "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel". Try looking up Wikipedia. I did and found some really interesting stuff, such as that in 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. And lots more.

"They of course have not vacated Gaza and drop in whenever they feel like it" When it is necessary to capture or kill terrorists who send missiles into Israeli cities. You could call for the Palestinians to arrest or kill these Palestinian terrorists themselves, but then you'd have to show an interest in preserving Israeli civilians wouldn't you?

Handing Gaza territory back to Egypt, now bound to a peace treaty with Israel, might be a nice idea, although I doubt the Egyptians want this albatross either. But don't hold your breath for the Dahaniya airport to ever open again. The engineers who built it (without consulting Israel), aligned the main runway so departing jets on Runway 18 have to pass over the Westernmost corner of Israel. Further, during Khamsin wind or other adverse weather, departing jets have to turn North over Israel to avoid a dangerous downwind take-off or downwind turn. Guess what? Absent a formal agreement (which the engineers may have anticipated), IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. No Israel clearance, no IATA approval for the airport, no insurance, and no flights. Nowhere, anywhere, do departing flights fly over international borders on take-off. And it won't be happening here, either. No matter who runs Gaza. Israel has absolute legal right to protect the citizens of Keren Shalom from unwanted low aircraft hazard.

"Palestinians have the right to oppose Israeli occupation by all means available" - Hamas In principle, Hamas is correct. Every nation has the right to oppose its occupation by another; and especially the Israeli Occupation which goes along with an attempt of annexation of as much land as possible. (Initially, the entire land.) Of course, Hamas has no right to terrorize the civilian population of Israel. Suicide bombing is a crime against humanity and forbidden to all. Realistically speaking, however, I don't think that if a Hamas man is brought before an international court for this crime will be punished severely. He will probably claim that Hamas had few other options, if any, in its fight for national liberation. This will be considered a "mitigating circumstance", no doubt. I doubt very much that there would even be such an international trial. When a peace agreement is signed, such terrorists typically receive an amnesty and are then considered by their people "freedom fighters", as has happened recently to IRA terrorists. Menachem Begin also benefited from such changed perception. P.S. Hamas is not bound by the Geneva Convention, which no Palestinian government ever signed, only by Customary International Law.

I have put you right about the definition of 'occupied' before so I'll let others deal with it this time - if they can be bothered. However - small historical point - Jews have not been in Palestine continuously for 4,000 years! It does depend on when you consider the Canaanite tribes who developed into the Israelites and Jews became distinct from the other tribes, but this probably happened about 800 BCE, maybe a lot later. The Romans expelled many Jews at 125 CE and most of those remaining became Christians and later converted to Islam. That means that the Jews/Israelites were the dominant (not the only) group there for about 900 years. Of course, there has been a very small continuous Jewish presence there since the Islamic conquest, but Jews have lived continuously in many countries - that doesn't entitle them to sovereignty.

I wonder if they have the same sentiments as you?

"I would like to see every Palestinian refugee on the outside, march to the border and sit there, in a Ghandi- style peaceful protest." This would cripple Hamas and advance their path to statehood.

"Killing innocent civilians is inherently wrong, and it is also counter-productive, causing revulsion and adverse publicity for the Palestinian cxause throughout the world." Nice to see you posting some sense. Palestinians lost sympathy by choosing to target civilians and were set back decades in a chance for a state. It is up to them to choose their future.

The level of your ignorance istruly laughable.Firstly they were the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, secondly untill partition they did nnot attack arabs at all , as they hoped to create a common arab jewish anti imperialist front in the ME.Thye concentrated all their attacks on the british.I suggest you get an education before you start spewing.Once again you have been exposed for the hater that you are.

Israel made a HISTORIC COMPROMISE when it vacated Gaza and gave it to the Pals.Margie. Not so Margie.Israel made a withdrawal based on self enlightened interest, namely on the basis of "demographics".Remember war criminal sharon,s speech re "occupying " another people and how it could not continue. They of course have not vacated Gaza and drop in whenever they feel like it and still control it. You certainly have a very simplistic view of matters,don,t you. BTW, I notice your use of the term "Pals".I assume that is meant as a derogatory term.Do you hate them all.

This is not the first time I write this note, but it seems Linda doesn't hear a thing. "Under international law, territories are considered "occupied" only when taken in an act of aggression which does not apply to Israel. Judea, Samaria and Gaza are not `occupied territories` according to international law because they were not taken from any foreign sovereign." - Linda Linda, did they not teach you in school not to be more pious than the Pope? It is unbecoming, and insulting to the Pope. Here is what the ISRAELI Supreme Court says about the Occupation (in HCJ 7957/04; the Alfei Menashe case): "14. The Judea and Samaria areas are held by the State of Israel in BELLIGERENT OCCUPATION." (Emphasis mine, but the Court used the English term itself in the Hebrew original of the ruling.) This is the Pope speaking, Linda. So please stop your campaign of denial, making yourself look like a fool, and go speak to the Pope. Or perhaps pray to God that the Pope change his mind. Amen.

"The solution is simple. Israel to cut EVERY link with Gaza and Gazaens. Responsibilty for their elictricity and water to be handed over to Egypt, Jordan and the EU with reasonable timetable for hand-over. Gazaens wishing to travel to Israel must apply for a visa, just like Magrebins to Europe and latinos to the USA." That would be Israel's prerogative, Alan, but what it requires also is the lifting of the sea blockade, and the freeing of the skies over Gaza so that the airport can be reopened and safely. With the scrapping of the Gaza border agreement between Israel and Egypt, Israel would no longer be the "Occupying Power" and could do what it wanted.

So what's your point?

That wouldn't be a bad thing. Hamas conduct in refusing Red Cross visits to Shalit and firing Kassams randomly at Israeli civilians has always suggested they reject the Geneva Conventions. But if they're renouncing it in a formal way, then Israel is not bound in any way either, its a 2-way street. To date, Hamas has seen 4-5 IDF helicopters out of 90, 50-60 tanks out of 4,800, and 3-4 jets out of 650. With Hamas edict of no rules binding on either party, how long would Gazastan last in all-out war? With the Egyptian Army there in '56 and in '67, it lasted less than a day. And with no Geneva Convention -- time to bring back napalm, clearly the most effective weapon to combat Kassam launchings, high temps cook off the rockets before they can be fired, which shrapnel can't do. "Israel has the right to oppose Gaza terrorism by all means" -- hmmm, has a nice ring to it. Maybe Hamas has introduced a useful concept there.

The solution is simple. Israel to cut EVERY link with Gaza and Gazaens. Responsibilty for their elictricity and water to be handed over to Egypt, Jordan and the EU with reasonable timetable for hand-over. Gazaens wishing to travel to Israel must apply for a visa, just like Magrebins to Europe and latinos to the USA.

Tyranny is a rather subjective word. Bona fide history books record that the way history works is that one group moves in, takes over, and then the country is theirs. Convenient examples would be Hebrews in Canaan, Germanic tribes in France and Britain, and, more recently, Moslems in Kosovo.

in your repetitive and tedious post. the partition of palestine in 1947 and the war in 1948 have been regurgitated so often that the sight of the words in your boring message gives one serious indigestion. lakshmi since you are so intent on writing copy something intersting from wikipedia and post it.far more eye opening i would wager.

Take your head out of your b*ckside for once and face reality of today. The Palestinians have made countless errors and are in no position to demand anything. Perpetual losers because their only aim is to destroy Israel. Stop talking percentages and start talking human lives. Jews have/had as much right to a state on this tiny strip of land as Palestinians, if not more so according to archeological and historical data. Most Palestinians were failry new arrivals from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc in serch of work, and their numbers increased ans mre JEws arrived and provided this work. Give it up already as your posts are nothing but tedious.

Yes. One is the decendent of a Jewish dynasty who created, built and developed the land of Israel 1700 years before Islam was ever conceved. The others are a bunch of desert nomad murderers, proxies of the arab league, to usurp anything that is Jewish.

thousands killed and maimed.not interesting enough?your neighbours though. how about the taliban war in afghanistan?tens of thousands killed yet you leave all that behind.your old boss britain is there as is your other nemesis the americans yet you love us more.bit of a weirdo is lakshmi.

Lakshmi IF YOU ARE SUCH a Human Rights Activist What have you been doing during the riots of Gujarat (your country India) Many want to hear your answer!!! :-)

They are the ones who violated the 1948 U.N. decision - illegaly seized the old city and baned all Jews. They also repeatedly attacked Israel trying to drive the Jews into the sea - AND LOST LAND DOING SO The refuges would not exist is Israel was not repeatedly attacked - and if SYRIA_JORDAN_EGYPT would show responsability and care for their citizens they abandoned to Israels care

Lakshmi talking of fetuses, Again look at the riots of Gujarat (your country India) Kausar Bano was nine months into pregnancy when on February 28, 2002, 500 strong armed mob stormed into their house at Naroda Patia. Her womb was allegedly cut open with swords and the fetus was burnt along with herself and 7 other members of her family of 12. Bilkis Yakoob Rasool was six month pregnant when, on March 3, 2002, a mob attacked their house in Randhikpur village located in Dahod district and gang-raped her while killing 14 of her closest relatives. She was left for dead but she survived. Seems that the brutal fetuses stories is on your end not on ours!

lakshmi why the capital letters for historic compromise?only those with nothing very much to say bring attention to pithy and empty phrases.

Israel was given a small piece of desert and a small piece of swamp in 1948 and this you say was negotiable. I see that you completely ignore the right of the Israelis to self determination and see them only as enemies. Israel made a HISTORIC COMPROMISE when it vacated Gaza and gave it to the Pals. Hamas can stay where they are. There is no possibility of this 'RoR' & they need do no favours in accepting it. Note the unhappiness that is befalling Belgium at the moment - 100 days of no government because of the mingling of two hostile populations. If Haniyeh is unable to prevent military wing from firing missiles on Sderot it is clear that these people have no positive intentions whatever towards the Israelis. This would lead to civil war. Absolutely unacceptable. We're not talking about political theory here we're talking about actual living human beings.

This is what hamas stands for. The point is, what to do about it?.Israel can cut the water and electricity supplies to Gaza, but that will not stop missiles landing on Sderot and its environs, and Hamas will get the world's including the Arab world's sympathy for what will seem as the punishment of the innocent Gazans.In other words, such a policy will backfire on the Israeli government, especially that, cutting the power supplies will need a long time for it to be effective, and there are many humanitartian loopholes which even the Israeli government admitts that it will abide with.The only way is to bring Hamas down militarily, but no one seems to have the stomach for it.

Lakshmi Give it up You pester Israel and do not acknowledge the brutal thing going on in your own country India, Well over 2500 Muslims killed in Gujarat (in what 1 day of riots) And over 250,000 people that were displaced. Lakshmi Here is a movie just for you (of your own people) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3829364588351777769&q=final+solution+india Get off the computer, you have much to MEND in your OWN COUNTRY, or is it?

The British army had its headquarter there. Do you say you are against killing civilians? What?s your opinion about pals killing Israelis? Or is it wrong to kill pal ?civilians? and right to kill Israeli civilians?

in the 19th century with the claim that the land was theirs(after 1700 plus years,and the call for ethnically cleansing the indigenous population)even if one concedes that project,in 1948 the Arabs had a right to reject the Partition Plan.It gave 56%land to 33% jews.It violated their right to self determination guaranteed by the League of Nations,which betrayed them and went for the Mandate which ended in Partition.The Arabs only defended the land assigned to them by the UN.The zionists had already started encroaching.And after 1948,they seized the opportunity to grab another 22% land and hold on to it although that is clearly illegal in International Law.Whether in defensive or offensive war you cannot indefinitely occupy land which is not terra nulla.The horrific ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is also well known.The illegal building of settlement since 1967,also well known.The creeping annextion, creeping ethnic cleansing by demolition of homes,destruction of farmland&killings.

It is the Pals who are occupying Israel?s land. This is so by their own admission. They say they are Arabs and Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula. Besides, in their charters they say that Israel was under Muslim occupation, which is not so any more. Even so the pals have been given Gaza, where they can build a wealthy state, taking into account the quantity of money they have been receiving for many years. But they are not still satisfied and want the whole thing, even if they have to live in shameful conditions. Well, it is their choice. And if they want the Jews? home, they risk losing everything.

The Arabs opposed the Partition Plane of 1947(Res.181)because it was unjust:1.it gave 33% jews 56%of land,2.it violated the Palestinian right to self determination guaranteed by the League of Nations which betrayed them and went for the Mandate that ended in Partition.In 1948 the Arabs only defended the land that had been assigned by the UN to them.The zionists had already made inroads there.The 1949 armistice line was bilateral agreement between israel,egypt,lebanon,syria,jordan and considered only temporary arrangement,not final borders,The only legally authorised demarcation of the israeli-palestine border is the Partition Line.Hamas has made an HISTORIC COMPROMISE and abandoned the earlier unitary state& has accepted the 2 state.But they certainly will not accept the measly 22% land of the Oslo agreement.They MAY accept the Partition Line,plus East J as capital,plus ROR.

Answer to IndraJaya post" Can anyone explain me the difference between Stern Gang and Hamas methods? How do you so-called Israelis expect Hamas to fight occupation? By petitioning to the " Supreme " Court? By debating in the Knesset with occupiers?" ______ Well, Indra, Stern Gang tactics did not benefit the Israeli stategic goals. to the contrary. In addition Israeli authorities controlled the Stern Gang/Irgun and made most of its members become part of the POLITICAL mainstream. If Stern Gang would've taken over a part of Israel( ala Hamas), its doubtful Israel would exist today.

left russia and czechoslovakia they keep losing the war ! as i said before your questions show adepth of stupidity difficult to deal with ! see balfour declaration ,san remo conference and 1922 mandate !

go to their country "JORDAN"

This is the story of the bombing by Jews at the King David hotel, that killed civilians, and still CELEBRATED BY ISRAELIS! http://www.brushtail.com.au/july_06_on/bombing_king_david.html

"The sources added that after his arrest, Ashur was PERSUADED to lead security forces to the house.. where the explosives belt had been stashed." - Haaretz The quote is not my point, but is worth a big smile. How was Mr. Ashur "persuaded"? How many virgins was he promised? Good intelligence prevented this suicide bombing. What about the next one? Is it realistic to go to a peace conference with the Palestinians without Hamas? Bush and Olmert, who can't see the future and trust in wishful thinking, believe this is reasonable. Barak knows that Abbas alone is too weak, and so do some Europeans, but they cannot persuade the stupid ideologues. Instead of bringing Hamas into the political process and letting it moderate due to political pressure as it did so far, Bush and Olmert threaten Abbas not to talk to Hamas. Barak already expects that, rather soon, Israel will need to go into Gaza and clean up the place. It will cost hundreds of soldiers' lives, and even then Hamas will not disappear. The good thing is that there is no future to the present Conference since Olmert is not ready to do anything but talk. I am waiting for the next elections in the US and Israel.

Pal terrorists make it clear through their actions they have no qualms in targeting Israeli civilians. They also make it clear through their words and their charters, where they claim they are on jihad, herein nobody is a civilian, not even babies.

that is obviously elitist talk and you ravi are most certainly not of the elite. your position ravi comes from the old anti western outlook in an india that has a great big chip on its shoulder from the time of the british occupation of india.

there should be no talks while pals, no matter which terror organization or faction, are attacking Israel and trying to murder Israelis.

We know this game, typical among the pals. One part plays the good guy role and the other, the bad guy. So they can be murdering Israelis and negotiating at the same time.

ravi since your casualties in india are far greater then anything we have in our conflict i fail to see the point you are making. no matter what weapons we have we have not killed anywhere near the numbers you have butchered. we do not have the frequency of bombs you have in your large cities.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it didn't quite happen inthe simplistic way you describe. This is actually what Moslems hordes did over the centuries - thus the many countries now under Moslem tyranny. Sorry realism, but youdon't live up to your name. Get some bona fide history books and learn a thing or two before you spout your nonsense here.

"So why don`t you ask them what exactly they are prepared to accept for peace and come back." The general consensus is that the Palestinians would accept the 1967 borders. Now, Peter, assuming this to be true, would you be prepared to evacuate all those big fat illegal settlements on the West Bank?

delhi and elsewhere killing hundreds of civilians every other month if as you say the swamps have been drained?

For the L-RD has chose Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession... And He gave their land as a heritage, a heritage to Israel His people. Psalm 135

Around, and after 1948, one million Jews suffered violent RELIGIOUS Jew cleansing from Arab countries. Arab governments seized the land, farms, homes, hospitals, schools, businesses and bank accounts of the Jews. Most Jewish refugees fled to Israel where the religious terror war against Jews NEVER stops. Cruel Global war is waged to subjugate every nation under Islamic sharia law - it is unacceptable to Islamists for Jews to have self-rule in TINY Israel. The 1948 Jewish refugees and their descendants who make up about half of Israel's Jewish citizens MUST be compensated in land and finances! http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/

india has survived a host of idiotic leaders...whose policies would surely have destroyed us.... but somehow we survived... we're finally over the hump, now with at least the minimum critical mass of educated people to take the buffoons on. you seem to be getting it... you cant break the human spirit..be it in kashmir, punjab, nagaland, tibet,or palestine. despite their stupidity, the indian govt,has realised this. just examine its response to terrorism. the indian govt has realised that terrorism is fought by draining the swamp that breeds the terrorists, not with bulldozers, fighterbombers, cluster bombs, and other such goodies which the idf is so fond of using

In 1948, Egypt invaded Gaza, ethnically cleansing all Jews and in 1948, Jordan invaded Judea, Samaria and east Jerusalem, ethnically cleansing all Jews. Muslim Jordan destroyed 58 synagogues in Jerusalem. When Israel won the Arab war of aggression in 1967, Jews returned to the areas of their ancestral homeland they had been ethnically cleansed from for 19 years. Anti-Israel propaganda DECEITFULLY calls Jews' legitimate return "occupation". Under international law, territories are considered "occupied" only when taken in an act of aggression which does not apply to Israel. Judea, Samaria and Gaza are not 'occupied territories' according to international law because they were not taken from any foreign sovereign. Jewish ownership of the land, homes and buildings stolen from the Jews in the 1948 Islamic invasion must be restored! Jews have had a continuous presence in physical and spiritual homeland Israel for 4000 years.

i used those words some four years ago and little ravi from chandigarh all the way in india has picked up my gems. ravi you are wasting your time.instead of going to hindu villages and teaching the untouchables their rights you are picking up useless information.what good is that?how are you going to solve india's troubles with this sort of nonsense?

Let me remind yu that Israel accepted the partition lines in 1948 - it was your friends that rejected them outright and set out to kill all JEws and "liberate" that which the partition plan gave to the Jews. And now you have the f*cking nerve to come here and claim this is what the Jews deserve? What do you think the Arabs would have "given" the JEws had they succeeded in their murderous endeavors - bopkes I am sure. You are so deceitful and full of pompous crap and you are the only one who seems to be fooled here. Nobody in their right mind even goes down that path. Had the arabs accepted their share then, and refrained from attacking Israel at regular intervals, that is where the border would have been. Can't you ever accept responsibility for your mistakes? Apparently not, which is why you will keep making them in the future.

so you do know about your neighbours.i quite agree with you about spirit.hark at the kashmiri muslims.years of indian oppression and their spirit has not been broken.

the total population is over 7m but i assume you count the jews alone.good boy.that is the way.now well over 5m jews.as far as speck of land is concerned i am glad you agree with me.but with the golan and the west bank we are somewhat bigger.not too small to sell you arms though.and phalcon aircraft.

As to a double standard, how about sanctioning invading a country, killing thousands of its inhabitants, expelling hundreds of thousands of them, stealing (expropriating is such an Orwellian word, isn't it?) their land and property, and then condemning them for trying to get it back?

ravi stop eating so much curry.israel has been fighting the arabs for 60 years since its birth. we have defeated them in all the wars including the 1973 war when they surprised us by attacking together.we came back and did what was necessary and more. ravi which first base are you talking about?

Hamas should also be informed that Israel has the right to respond to Pali terror by whatever means possible. As always with the Arabs there is a double standard

You know full well that ?Palestinians? is a fabrication against Israel. Why are the Gazans leaving the Strip by the thousands since Israel left?

If Jews were right to fight to return to their country nineteen centuries after leaving, why are Palestinians wrong to fight to return to THEIR country sixty years after leaving?

And the pogroms in Hebron and other towns.

That the Israelis let hamas and co. kill them and do not retaliate?

like your other little friend lakshmi you both refuse to open your eyes to what is in gront of you. ravi how about the troubles in burma?and worse the troubles in afghanistan or indeed pakistan?all forgotten?just israel?why leave your neighbours out of the equation and search for troubles farther afield? we are a long way away from your borders.what is this obsession of yours with israel all about?

First of all, what is Israel occupying? In the second place, the pals attack the Israelis indiscriminately, whereas Israel targets terrorists. Of course, not being members of an army, terrorists are civilians. If everybody followed your advice, to prosecute terrorism would be illegitimate everywhere.

at the sabra chtilla massacres perpetrated by ben alofs's friends the phalange. lakshmi how many indians came out in protest after the 2000 muslims were massacred in gujrat? none is the answer.not one little indian.

Sudanese refugees are being shot by egyptian border guards on their way to israel!!!!! We can do doubt expect a tirade of mighty human rights fighting polemics from you about Egypt right?? I ask because if israeli troops shot them there would 700 responses.

what is that in comparison to the 2000 people butchered in gujrat state recently by the indian authorities?

Israel needs to to get out of the ME, the route to this goes through a two state solution, then israel can bring down the Iron Curtain between it and the Arab world.The EU has offered israel associate status once this is done.Israel must look to europe as its source of regional integration.Trying to earn the respect and admiration of the Arabs is a waste of time, rather trying to maintain as much distance between us and them is more worthwhile.The only way to deal with hamas is to get a deal done with abbas, that will isolate hamas politically and so let them expalain to all why they are holding up a Palestinian state.Regards and Shana Tova

And Israel has the right - no the OBLIGATION to defend its citizens. The world continues to employe its double standard - sanctioning arab terror as Justified rage - and condeming Israel for defending itself against arab terror.

israel has the right to defend itself.... just as the palestinians have a right to resist oppression, and occupation. israel has to understand the circumstances and the environment it finds itself in... and conduct itself accordingly. unfortunately it behaves with an arrogance which belies explanation. all that stands between it and annihilation, is uncle sam..... and uncle is losing ground fast. read my reply to yonatan.... it applies to you in equal measure.

Cute attempt at playing Marx or Engels MA CHERIE.Now that Yom Kippur is over I can really say what I thing about your Meretz style Leftist Elite. The Balestinians are not a Nation so how can they have any sort of government and why would they arrest anyone as they consider killing Jews a Religious right. Bur come to think of it , how many has your FRIEND and ALLY Abbas arrested and actually jailed? You Leftist Scum just make me sick with your "finesse".

populations&civilian populations!Where do you see the kind of mass protests that take place in America,Europe or Britain.Except for a few rights orgs.people &some leftists,where do you see any mass protests by civilians in israel.The germans could claim that they had no recourse against Hitler,but in israel?One has to conclude that israeli civilians are either indifferent or complicit or both in the crimes their state commits against Palestinian civilians(I'm not talking about the settlers who are beyond the pale).Read www.Maannews.net/en today for the atrocities going on in Gaza&West Bank.Farm being bulldozed,ambulance being directed deliberately by idf at the checkpoint to settlers where it is attacked;boy stabbed,gas canister thrown into mosque,the list goes on.This month alone 20 Palestinians have been killed.On Thursday,a teenager run over by a bull dozer.Where is the protest from israeli civilians?

First of all, why dont you tell us which occupation before talking about means of resistance?

...population cowed and broken.... thats another way to describe the "searing defeat on the pali mind" policy, put forward by sharon, and found to be a complete failure in attaining its stated goals of "breaking" the palestinians, as you describe it. it not only failed, but severely damaged the israeli case. get real yonatan.... be practical... 5 million on a speck of land, surrounded by 200 million hostile arabs.... you wont get to first base in the breaking game. take the case of tibet...2 million tibetans have to date not been broken by 1.2 billion chinese, who have used the most extreme measures in trying to achive their aim... theyve failed. the human spirit is not so breakable as you believe. the jews should know... theyve been through a lot worse, courtesy the nazis... and they were not broken.

You mistake defence for attack. Imagine somebody wants to stab you and you defend yourself. Then you and the stabber are equal, by your standards. In this case, the aggressors are the pals. Who has the right to defend itself is Israel. The pals have no right to attack Israel and murder Israelis. So you support those who crashed into the World Trade Center murdering several thousands Americans? Are you a Taliban or a hamas member?

You really must read it.Peace with ANY Israel is NOT on the agenda They keep repeating their position so that even the most obtuse Israel hater can understand. Their viable state is the Islamic Republic of Palestine from the river to the sea. Yudenrein. They demonstrated their confidence building measures by firing missiles on the same day that the last Israeli left Gaza. So why don't you ask them what exactly they are prepared to accept for peace and come back.

"Hamas: Palestinians have right to oppose occupation by all means" We too have the right to defend "by all means".

by any means.

Hamas calls ?occupation? to Israel very existence. Since this territory was once occupied by Muslims, it is Islam?s land forever, according to the yihadists? ideology. That is to say, Muslims invade a country and when its legitimate owners recover it, the yihadists call ?occupiers? to the legitimate owners.

not attacking civilians.Here's where the problem lies:this is an asymmetric warfare,with a brutal regime armed to the teeth& supported by its civilian population.Blowing up power lines etc,is easier said than done,given the resources of the Palestinian militants.These are not only the desperate acts of a desperate people,but they have a certain justification in light of what I have said above.I would add that they should have targeted assasinations of the israeli leaders.By the way,our clever fake poster has taken to following me around using women's names(thinking that would draw me in).The Indian names did not work.I ignored them.There are a few known women posters:Lynn,margie,jasmine, kath,cipora,and a couple of others,which I recognise and whose signatures I know by now.

If the Arabs hadn't attacked Israel in 1948 and at intervals after that Israel would still be within the 1948 borders. The Jews did no sneaking. If the Arabs had defeated Israel in 1948 or any time thereafter there would be no Israel at all today. Those Jews who were conquered in 1948 were all killed immediately. Different moralities.

The Jews are entitled to exactly what was given them in 1948. The rest which they have sneaked into their land arsenal should be returned. God has nothing to do with it, and the world is no longer fooled with that one! I would like to see every Palestinian refugee on the outside, march to the border and sit there, in a Ghandi- style peaceful protest. Of course it won't happen as either the Arabs will attack them before they get there, or the IDF will attack them in one of their "daring raids" Nice to muse though.