Hamas: 50,000 gunmen are ready to fight IDF, defend the Gaza Strip

Once again Mr.s Lakshmuk and Clikfart, Wont you give us a history lesson, and give us a break. It is facinating that you two, and that qwacking Hannah broad, get so much print, in this out of control forum. But first a history. Wont either of you, or alas, you Hannah, tell us all when it was you became entrenched in hate for Israel? What, pray tell, has this state done to you? In each of you're countries, there is a strong military to protect you, and I dont hear you hating that.You should blog your views, and give the rest of us a break. Let me know the address, and I'll be sure to avoid it. Have a safe life.

I have no Idea what Kind of peace you expect by a Peace Deal.The only one looking for the Deal is Abbas.There is nothing to gain and it is clear by the end result of the Gaza pullout.The end result of a solution will be a Palestinian state continiously shooting bigger and bigger rockets into Israel obtained from Iran and Syria and the blackmarket mostly missing US stuff from Iraq .

Every Hammas gunman or terrorist needs to be sent home in a body bag with the corpse of a pig. They can all live in eterinity with their pigs. Bet a million the violence would end quickly. Thats all folks

Why did the palestinians never created a Palestinian State before 1946?

You are clown. This is a true resistance force. Zion took their land by force and has occupied them. They are the good guys.

Palestine has Australia's support.

if my mathematics is correct,50,000 martyrs multiplied by 70 virgins is 3,500,000 virgins.do they have to be provided all at once? the logistics is a problem.i am prepared to organise the supply

Actually it's "Do unto others as you would "HAVE" them do unto you". Not quite the same thing as--- "*Do unto others as they would do unto you..."

Akram, you must not confuse physical-plane statehood with the spiritual concept of nationhood. To the former, one merely BELONGS, whereas the latter describes who one IS at the level of one's consciousness and identity. Throughout the ages, the Jews have been criticized, hated and indeed murdered because they represent the CONSCIENCE of humankind. They keep a Sabbath; praise God even before eating a candy; say a blessing before having sex; and after going to the toilet. It is simple: the Jews are perceived as a threat to an easy-going, less responsible lifestyle. hala and Silvienne are the kind of people who will always try to put their logic ahead of their conscience. When they scoff at the Jews, they actually wish to attack the spiritual and moral aspects of Humanity, which the People of Israel have long ago committed to guard and preserve!

I don't think that Hala meant literally, "who cares how long Judaism lasts". I think it's possible that Hala was referring to the idea that many Jews/Israelis seem to have, that they are always the "victims". They are not the victims in modern Israel. That is over and past and they should stop saying it. Now, you say "ancient Israel stands witness to the crimes and savageries of ancient Greece and Rome". Yes, but even a casual reading of the old testament of the bible shows that the Israelites perpetrated many crimes and savageries too....Spartacus actually was cruxified by Rome for being a runaway slave who led a revolt against Roman rule. I don't know who you are referring to when you say the Greeks sent one of the greatest thinkers to his death..Socrates maybe? Who drank the poison? Regards

Silvienne.The question of the holocaust is not an issue here.Hala claims knowledge of history which is definatly not there. 'WHO CARES HOW LONG JUDAISM LAST'.This is an itimidating statement; erasing 3000 years of History. Judaism saved Europe from paganism and without Judaism there is no Christianity & Islam. Civilization is NOT todays ruines. The Greeks sent one of the great thinkers to his death and the Romans sent one of the best liberators Spartacus to the gallows; and build its todays runis with slaves bones & blood. Ancient Israel stands witness to their crimes and savageries. Hala must know that if she knows anything in History. The truth is VERY IMPORTANT IN HISTORY. History is the link between the past and the future. Hala needs to apologies for her statement on her post-818 for the sake of History. regards

..what Hannika celebrates...I read the history of the Maccabees; I don't think that's in the bible, least, I've never seen it... "*Do unto others as they would do unto you..." "*I revised it slightly to suit my requirements.." What do you mean, Ben? That's the way it's supposed to be (I think..)

Michael, you are not able to call Hala an "anti-semite Jew hater" just in case Hala is Jewish...so instead, reaching into your bag of tricks, you come up with this instead: "indifference, nihilism, self denial" Nihilism doesn't belong in this discussion. It's a political stance...

How many more times are you going to go on and on about Hala's posts: "Who cares how long Judaism lasts", the Nazis, Hitler, the Holocaust...? Why does every discussion always, always have to eventually jump back to the Holocaust?

"I wonder sometimes what Haniyeh thinks when he wakes up in the morning. "Yeah, another beautiful day- maybe we`ll kill some Jews today!" In case you hadn't noticed, no Jews have been killed for a while now. The dying belongs only to the Palestinians these days. Why not? They certainly don't own much else.

Michael Jacobs-831 I have no doubt of your sincerity.But halas-659 wents deeper than the question of Israel or/& NATIONHOOD.We are not talking politics here. We are talking about something which concerns an entire heritage which goes further than the Jews. Hala is attacking the very roots of the monastic believes that is shared by almost half of humanity. Her statement and the way she defended it made hala at par with the Nazi and an excuser of the Holocauset."WHO CARES HOW LONG JUDAISM LASTS ". Isn't that the core of the attitude of the denials; Hitlers,David Irving, Ahmadeinjad and the rest of Facists ? The later part of your post,you touches the question of 'antisemitism' which is 'hateing the Jews'. But hala went deep than that.She is indiferent to the very existance of JUDAISM. In good majore,she praised the Romans & Greeks civilizations that left behind only runines for the tourists and ancient knowledge that mostly contradicted by later days discovries.

"Your chauvinism .. makes any discussion devoid of rational and sanity" hala-832. Sanity : Yes indeed, where is sanity in such an insain statement:"WHO CARES HOW LONG JUSAISM LAST" ? What differance such a statement makes to Hitler's 'final solution' ? Or David Irving? You must be insain hala to defend yourself instead of bragging and not apologize..Your shallow knowledge teachs you NOTHING. Chauvinsm: A trevesty of languge in this case. This is how Chuinism explained in A Dictionary of Political Thoughts" by Roger Scruton: 'Chauvinis is help to be a kind of self protective hostility". What kind of HOSTILITY JUDAISM presented to any one through out its History ?Aren't you useing words without thoughts or knowledge ? Rationality: What sort of rationality you have in your post-659 ? A little mind condemning the JUDAISM the root of all the monistic religions? You are ignorant and rude and 'devoid' of the the wisdom of admitting mistakes. Worthy of quality argumen

Gaza has over a million people, which means at least 500,000 men. Most of them by far are under 40, and therefore of fighting age. Only 1 in 10 is ready to fight for Hamas? What a shame. And this is despite Iranian aid, Egyptian laxity at the border, free electricity and food courtesy of the EU, and other perks. Shame, shame, shame. I wonder sometimes what Haniyeh thinks when he wakes up in the morning. "Yeah, another beautiful day- maybe we'll kill some Jews today!" But after doing that for years and not getting anywhere, doesn't it get a little bit boring?

Yes, the film over your eyes prevents any vision other than Judeo-tinted. If that is all of which you are capable, your chauvinism and tunnel view make any discussion devoid of rationale and sanity.

hala, your indifference, nihilism and self-denial are hurting and harmful. From the start, nationhood has been at the very CORE of the Jewish identity. If nothing else, this is what the Jews contribute to the world against all imaginable odds: NATIONHOOD. The Jewish scriptures and teachers view Jewish nationhood as blessed by the Divine. That is why the Jews regard circumcision and Sabbath as NECESSARY and VITAL for their survival. Even under the most adverse circumstances, they have kept up with these holy commandments, so as to be preserved as a nation. Interestingly, the gentiles, albeit with extreme resistance, ALSO consider the Jews to be a class apart. By its repeated displays of antisemitism, which are VERY convincing and cannot be ignored, the world has CONFIRMED the institution of the Jewish nation, time and again. If people are not satisfied with man-made STATES and STRUCTURES, they should learn the MORALS of the blessed and holy nationhood. Let them ask the Jews!

Between your two posts 659 & 818 there is a gulf that can never be bridged.Read them to yourself and you will see what even blinds can see. On your post 818 you refered to two Empires ruled almost the entire know world of their time Both have access to wealth,domination,and above all Slaves.It is obvious their achievements should be enormous like any other empire before and after them.There is no pride in that. Israel that has been always a small country. Never an empire, it is obvious it can never match the Roamans & the Greeks with splendour. That,you didn't considered.On your post 659 you branded yourself & lost ALL credibility. You offended Millions if NOT half humanity;with unforgivable words:"WHO CARES HOW LONG JUDAISM LASTS" hala-659.JUDAISM that is what you said. An acho of the Nazi & the brutality of Facism. Would you made words like that about the Romans and the Greeks ?! Who built monouments with slaves blood ? Shame...No excuse..

*Do unto others as they would do unto you... Arabs attempted, without success, to steal Israel from the Jews...They went to war & lost...Now we have a case of "Winner's Keepers, Loser's Weepers"...Why should Israel return land when Arabs were eager to steal Israel and kill it's Jews in the process??? Regarding the Maccabees, here's a link which I checked out...It's pretty good reading... http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0830825.html *I revised it slightly to suit my requirements..

If you would tell me how I have hurt and delegitimized any Jews, please tell me. Nationhood is an artificial concept, as nations can be built overnight. What is the American nation? What is the Swiss nation? Some nations are simply conglomerations of inhabitants from different countries who become a nation simply by occupying the same space. The Belgians are Germanic and Latin, speaking different languages. Other nations boast of a purity of genes. Israel today is not the same Israel that existed until the disbanding of the state in the 8th c. BC, not the same borders, not the same ethnic makeup, not the same food, the same monetary system, the same laws, etc. If that is hurting or delegitimizing, then you are not equipped to engage in a discussion. Let me know your thoughts on the matter and do not judge what is invalid until you have provided the discussion with what is clearly and objectively valid.

Why not thrive on both Greco-Roman antiquity and monotheism from the Middle East? The names and accomplishments list is incomplete--architecture, medicine, mathematics... And all the ideas and inventions and establishments are alive today, constantly renewed. Even Jews of antiquity admired the Hellenic world, especially those of Alexandria. The Gospels and St Paul's epistles were written in Greek, the Greeks established the Christian church of Byzantium, Constantine the Great made Christianity legal, the word was spread throughout the Gentile world by Greeks and Romans, through their acceptance of monotheism, the Old Testament and all the great stories became a part of western culture. Both are symbiotic. Remember, the pagans had not heard the word until Christ's apostles brought it to the Gentiles, opening the hermetic world of Judaism. Both the spiritual gifts of Judaism and the esthetic, scientific gifts of classical antiquity make up our complete world today.

Michael Jacobs has given me the old "native American" ploy in several posts before in several threads. I've always responded in the exact same way each time; stealing of Indians land was wrong but in as much as reparation can be made it has been made, and the stealing of land and colonisation of it ended in thr 1800s; same for other countries "colonies". We are supposed to know better now in 2007, and now, as we write, Israel is expanding the settlements rather then dismantling them...

They COVERED the cars...Car covers are very common in a hot climate..Keeps them kool & helps them stay clean...Nobody said they put sand in the gas tanks or in the engines...

Silvienne, I have the Vulgate in Latin and the New Testament in Greek. Maybe your version does not include this text. It is the very last book. Try online.

hala, I completely disagree with your scientific approach to nationhood. Like others before you, you try to delegitimize and hurt the Jews. However clever, your MOTIVES invalidate your arguments. It is as simple as that. And, no, location does NOT make a nation. Nor does conquest, intermarriage, mass murder, or any other trick on record. A nation can NOT be contrived by the mind alone. Poorly understood, this is the essential message of the Jews. In comes spirit, leading to a conversation BEYOND materialism. When compared to the vibrant powers of soul, your reasoning - however scientifically correct - has preciously little value.

"Maccabees 3:24" Where can I find this to read? It's not in the Old Testament, though, I looked...

Hundreds of years elapsed and countless natives were exterminated before humans finally began becoming a bit more humane. Since the natives had no property deeds and no unified nation to oppose the Europeans, there are no records or history to show what belonged to whom. It is sad, but not reparable. The pieces have been lost. But a colonial enterprise which culminated in the founding of a state just 60 years ago can still be emended. The broken pieces are all there, we need to glue them together. There are great restoration facilities available, you should see my broken serving platter after restoration, the crack is almost invisible. There are refugees who can identify their occupied property in Israel. UK left India, etc. (well, they still have Gibraltar, and Spain is soooo unhappy), France left Indochina, Algeria, etc. So why is Israel so behind the times?

Hala Your post-818# is a disappointment.A list of names dosen't make a civilization.The democracy that sent Socrates to his death is not more than a miscoception.If it is names that makes civilizations;what about Ibraham,Ishak,Jacob, Morris,David,Joseph,Daniel,Benjamin,John,Rachell Noah,Rbecca,Sara,Na'omei,Ester,Dabora,Hanna, Adam,Simon,Amos,Johna,Frank,Ezra,Mary,Jesus, Joshua etc.All Hebrew names as you must know. Greeks & Roman left civiliztions that extended mostly in Europe. Left over from the Godless civilisations of Europe before Christianity. Judaism is the ONLY civilization that set the human soul ablazed for ever. Adopted by most people.Accepted by all aspiring nations.It is Law,it is poetry,it is history, it is a code of justice and rules of society. It is everything one needs in life and for his comfort for after life. Keep with the Grreks & Romans and you will live among the ruins.Setp-in with the monistic Jews and you will be with the overlasting.

Silvienne, the time for colonialism is definitely over, so you should PERSONALLY return to your country England in order to help restore justice to those Native Americans who are still alive. Colonialism is over and you should no longer 'occupy' the Native Americans' land, particularly since it was their grazing ground, their revenue. You should PERSONALLY render your house over to them. There is no excuse, even after centuries have lapsed, because the descendants of both the colonialists and their victims are still around. First you do these things. Then I will talk with you about the problem with the Arabs. There are no human rights in ANY Arab country or location. This can definitely not be blamed on Israel. Until you do what a person with principles as you MUST do (move out of occupied America and back to where you came from), I will stop this conversation.

I have to pester you again, Michaell, to stand up for my dearest friends, the Hellenes and Italians. The nations never disappeared, although their conquered territory has been lost, they are still alive and well, thank you. Their government systems are still in existence today in the form of democracies, mutatis mutandis. Their language lives on in science, literature the arts==look up from whence most of the words that I have just used originate. Their gods are still honored, look how many tourists crowd all the ancient ruins and temples, admire the statues of Athena, Aphrodite. In the Romance languages, the names of the gods survive the days of the week LUNAE DIES, MARTIS DIES, MERCURII DIES, etc., as French LUNDI, MARDI, Spanish VIERNES, etc., all recall the gods. Freud used the example of OEDIPUS to name his complex. The planets are named after Venus, Mercury, etc. asteroids are names Ceres, Eros, etc. The West is the living heir of ancient Rome and Greece.

How cruel of you to say that I am attacking Semites. Note that I never wrote that Philistine still exist as a nation. They are last mentioned in Maccabees 3:24. They mingled with the rest of the population. And inhabiting a certain area is what creates a nation. The Hebrews left Ur and by staying in Canaan, they became eventually the Jewish nation. In the meantime, the Hebrews intermarried with all the other natives, including Phillistines. Since the name Philista/Palestine was and is one of the names of the region and since Arabs who have been living there either as descendants of Canaanites, Jebusites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Muslim Arabs, assorted Europeans, Turks, Egyptians, Armenians, etc., etc., and if they want to form a nation named after the region in which they live, who can stop them? Nobody wanteed the Israelites when they came out of Egypt (Biblical narrative, history aside), and they took over for some time.

Dear Akram, I did not mean to offend you personally when I wrote that it is not that important in the scheme of things how long a religion lasts or whether it is "right" or "wrong." You have a deep and inspiring faith, I was very moved by your letter. For a Hindu or Buddihist or Moslem, the letter would be different. Each would be professing and defending his or her own faith. I have become a cynic, but my heart is still tender. Hashem bless you.

"The latest thing you said about Bin Laden is that you would like to see him on trial. What if he had been killed? Would you be protesting his death?" No.

The latest thing you said about Bin Laden is that you would like to see him on trial. What if he had been killed? Would you be protesting his death?

"What if he had been killed? Would it be unfair?" Please explain?

It's completely true, and no mockery was intended.

Regarding the West Bank...how many towns and villages are cut off from their own farming land by the wall, settlers only road, the IDF checkpoints...how many olive trees have been destroyed by the settlers and Israel? Olives are the Palestinians revenue and Israel has destroyed oil trees in the thousands.

"It was Yassin who first justified the killing of innocent children based on the fact that they would grow up to become soldiers" Well Jes, if that's true, Israel has certainly taken his lesson to heart, that you can't deny. Look at how many innocent Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF this year, or this month, alone...

"It`s the oldest excuse in the book. I like to call it "perpetual victimhood." Israeli`s and their cheerleaders seem to justify all of Israel`s heinous actions with the excuse that someone else or some other country has done the same thing" It is certainly said very often here on these Talkbacks..."but you stole American land, Australian land, Indonesian land"...conveniently forgetting that it was not last week that such outrageous thefts occurred, and that now the rest of the world has long ago discarded colonialism....

That's incredible, that those stolen Israeli cars were in perfect condition after being buried in the sand...I'd have thought the sand would have got into the engine and ruined it...like when you put sugar in the petrol tank... Still, it just goes to show..there's always a good use for all that sand!

That may be the Muslim belief, certainly not mine..In my version his slowly rotating on a spit over an open flame..

"Yassin had his sight & physical parts restored to operating condition" Aha..then in that case, if he got that back, maybe he didn't mind his own death....

"who cares how long Judaism lasts" Hala. Sorry,you must be a woman without soul to say anything like that.Rligion is the other side of human being.The side that is not feed by food but through the depth of our feeling. Love of life,love of children,Love of Nature, Love itself.There is NO life without Love.G-d is needed to give hope for Love.Love makes one feel needs something;which is hope.G-d the one we turn for him for hope when our soul is hungry. The point is what we give G-d to make us feel that he will give us the things that we hope for? and that is Religion. Idol worship failed because man created the Idol Ibrahamism is the first monism linked man to his soul;the minute man is conceived.Those who don't believe in a monistic G-d are lying to themselves.Or not healthy in their soul. Judaism is the religion of the soul.Judaism is born with man and descovered by Ibraham. Judaism will last as long as there is life. It's the part of us that we can't see.

What if he had been killed? Would it be unfair?

Sheihk Yassin (MHRIH) was responsible for terrorism since he called the believers to murder Jews, in the same way many imams and mulahs call for killing Americans or any other westerners. Being the "spiritual" leaders, their word is a command.

If that is so, I agree with you. But it is unfair to mock the victims of holocaust.

Silvienne, the Arabian peoples are given plenty of CHANCES to prosper, financially, given their oil revenues. But they fail to advance in any other area. Currently, they are among the most backward civilizations on the earth. The Arabs of Gaza and the West-Bank follow the same pattern. For DECADES now, they have had land, food, employment and medical care available to them. Still they fail to use all this to their own advantage. Even the money they receive from the international community is used to wage war against Israel. Blaming the Jews will really not do the trick. Other nations tried this before, and failed miserably.

Well, the donkey parable applies--two donkeys, life long friends, were harnessed together crossing a narrow bridge side by side; one donkey slipped and fell over the edge; his friend looked at him, cut the harness and said 'ain't no point in both of us going over'. That is the likely result of US/Israel in the future. I do believe the Pals will win this one and when it is all said and done, Zionists will destroy themselves from within, and not from any outside threat from Iran or anybody else. However, if they keep crying victim while bombing this one or that, justice will come to them, and soon. US can barely help itself---no money. I think you will find the site I sent to you about Jews who are against Zionism very informative, as I did when I read it. Regards. Ballistic.

there is a big difference given how Dubya runs his outfit. Didn't sound like he is in sync with what Dubya istalking about. Thanks for the correction. Regards.

"That said,all humans share 90% the same genetic makeup" Hala. I remember Clinton once said share 99%.(He said that when the genetic record was finished) Just soemthing from the memory. I could be wrong.

hala, under the guise of 'science' you pursue an antisemitic purpose. There were those who tried this before you. You are like a person who abuses Darwin's theory in order to justify beastly, criminal behavior in humans. Your 'Palestinians' do not exist - regionality is NOT the same as nationality. History teaches us that even the Romans, the ancient Greeks and other once powerful cultures were unworthy of nationhood. Their reign ceased to be, indeed, their very GODS are no longer honored. 'Regionality' can not be inherited. Arabian peoples, for lack of an identity, may try to FAKE a common purpose by waging war on the Jews and the rest of the world. But their strategy will remain without success. More and more, the Arabs' failure at nationalism seems to result from serious flaws in their philosophy and attitude. But while the world will feed and even protect the Arabs, it can NOT force them to accept a positive identity. They will have to do that themselves!

That was a good one Ben.

Yassin did provide a lot of operational guidance. He was positioned as the "spiritual leader" for Western consumption, but his "spirituality" was largely operational. It was Yassin who first justified the killing of innocent children based on the fact that they would grow up to become soldiers.

They salute and hold their AK's in perfect position..They've never worked a day in their lives and I'll bet they don't know what it is to have callouses on anything but their butts..

Yes, he Ottomans did a lot of damage. They were largely responsible for deforesting the entire country, late in the 19th century. By the time the first Zionists arrived there were vast tracts of waste land - overgrown areas and, particularly on the coastal plain and in the Galilee, areas where the overgrowth had blocked the wadis creating large, malaria infested swamps. Speaking of genetic studies, these have shown that most Jewish communities in the world are closely releated, and that even European Jews are more closely related to Palestinian Arabs than they are to the European communities from which they came. That said, all humans share over 90% the same genetic makeup.

I'm glad they moved their cars..Since 9/11 they're most anxious to make a good impression.. Regarding the stolen cars, I too know a story about that...Arabs were stealing expensive cars in Israel, burying them in the sand, not far from where the Sinai was to be returned to Egypt...Egypt got the Sinai back, cars were now on Egyptian land, dug up and sold, without papers...They were in perfect condition, the dry desert air preserved them..At the worst, some of the rubber dried out and had to be replaced...

They both got what they sought for others... I guess they're enjoying their virgins and Yassin had his sight & physical parts restored to operating condition..

"...What America did in the 1500s does not make it okay for Israel to continue settlement expansion in the West Bank in 2007." Silvienne, It's the oldest excuse in the book. I like to call it "perpetual victimhood." Israeli's and their cheerleaders seem to justify all of Israel's heinous actions with the excuse that someone else or some other country has done the same thing. Maybe they learn in school to never admit responsibility.

"Steve Beikirch, when you talk about `accuracy`: the actual, original Palestinians were JEWISH." Can't stand to be corrected so you come back with something that I didn't even bring up. What's the matter can't defend your statements?

like a Nazi.REMEMBER Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al-Husseini a leader of Palestinian Arabs(the uncle of terrorist Yasser arafat) "ALLIED with HITLER" during WWII and created a Mohamedan WAFFEN SS company, The "Hanjar trooper" who slaugthered 90 percent of Jews in Bosnia? Now its Payback time! Whereever you find them make them pay!.

"What`s with the stolen cars??..Is someone buying or selling???..Let`s have some details about this subject...Thanks" As you know I don't make a practice of namecalling but he slung some dogpoo at me so I returned it. I had been telling KUTW, way back in the thread, about the Islamic Center next to my hospital which is a mosque, and I had to park there once Friday and the Arabs rushed out to move their cars..KUTW or Nemesis said we should park in Gaza, I said no parking problem there, the guy with the abuse said only stolen cars in Gaza,I said, know a lot about stolen cars do you? (see, I should have told you it was boring before I wrote it....):)

...he wasn't the operational leader of Hamas. That was Al-Rantisi. That was all I meant, to differentiate their roles in Hamas. Not that it matters much now, they're both dead by the same manner...

Good point, JES, about the al-Masri name. From what I have read, the Ottomans forced the Palestinian men into the army, as well as depleting the land of its material resources, hence Mark Twain's description of the desolate landscape where he travelled. And some genetic studies have shown that Jordanian, Palestinians, etc., have genes frsom sub-Saharan Africa, probably due to the Egyptian population influx, since there were always many blacks in Egypt. And yet these imports became part of the Palestinian people, just as Moabites, Ethiopians and others were accepted into the Israelite community. The main lesson is that we are all humans and meant to live with each other in harmony. And I am always praying that this will happen in Israel, Palestine, Judaea, Samaria, Syria, Jordan, whatever names are used, as long as they spell PEACE.

Kath to Hala: "No further idiotic comments from you is needed." Did someone die and put you in charge, Gaelic Kath? Didn't think so.

Thanks for the suggestion, Nemesis, but I'll give the whales a miss. I don't think the Palestinians are beyond help at all. I've already told you the solution; don't read my posts, or the posts of the people who post to and with me, which is quite a lot. That should solve your problem without bothering the whales.

hello Ballistic..haven't had a chance yet to get to them but I will..I've seen talking heads on tv who say the same as the Bush official, that supporting Israel is hurting America more and more each day...two choices, drop Israel as you say, or literally force Israel to stop persecuting the Palestinians and give them their own state. I can't see America doing any serious forcing...Israel promised to dismantle roadblocks and never did it, and looky here...more and more expansion! If Israel was smart it would drop the colonizing, it'll cause civil war in Israel in the end... Regards to you!

Hubal, you are a great nobleman and I love your name. Thank you for reminding posters of the necessity for respect and politeness. This is not a name-calling contest, this is supposed to be a discussion. I deeply admire the whole Judaic people, religion, culture. I am very sorry that Israel could not have quietly and peacefully slipped into a comfortable niche in the Middle East. I love the idea of a state for the Jewish people. But I also know that the others who were living there already should not have been made to suffer. The bad beginnings have led to a conflict that worsens each day. There will be no peace until everyone acquires a 360 degree perspective of the entire panorama, historical claims and all.

What I mean is that God chose the children of Israel as his chosen people according to the Bible and then look at the awful thing that happened to them. Admittedly, I am an aethist, but it seems to me that I'd rather be forgotten by God than be chosen and have awful things happen to me. It reminds me of the funeral of a six year old child abuse victim in New York a few years ago. The Catholic priest said in his prayer, Oh God, who so loved this child...my immediate feeling was, if that is God's love, let him ignore me, please. But then, I have no religious faith.

The late Sheihk Yassin was not responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 Israels. Bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 Americans. And yes, I'd like to see Bin Laden have a trial and be sentenced according to international law. In The Hague, probably, where Milosovic was convicted.

Since nationhood was impossible under occupation, and many other peoples suffered the same situation under the Ottomans, it was not until the overthrow of the Turks that Arabs in the region began to see themselves as a separate entity, largely fueled by Zionism, as they felt threatened by the demographic change. They knew the intention of Herzl and other Zionists to create a "Judenstaat," they saw land being sold by absentee landlords. In 1911, Issa-al-Issa published FILASTEEN, addressing his readers as "Palestinians" (English version). As the conflict escalated, the notion of ethnicity grew around the name by which the region had been known. And that is what they have decided: FILASTEEN. Yes, nuances are very important. You know about "le nez de Cleopatre..."

I may be silly at times, but I'm not supercillious, which is what you called me, and I retaliated. Do you have to stay the entire day at the shul? You mean it isn't like church services, which go on for about an hour or so, then again later in the day? You are there all the day? (Just curious). I've lived through the IRA bombing in London, so I don't condone suicide bombing and never, never have. By doing it, the Palestinians are doing what the IRA did, bringing the bombing to the home country; i.e., London and Israel proper. Though they didn't blow themselves up, they targeted buildings, cars..anyway, legititmate resistance would be fighting the IDF, but the Palestinians have rifles, homemade kassams, and stones, while the IDF have the best that America's money can buy, so there's no contest. Napalm brings to mind the many, many films and footage of Vietnam, a terrible image..

Ad hominem, nothing of substance in your post, KATH'. And quit the name calling. The Philistines were probably of Aegean origin (no "Greece" at that time), but since there are only a few Philistine words extant, there has been no comparison with the Mycenean linear B. These people did not "disappear," that is no explanation. Were they holocausted? Were they deported? They adopted the Canaanite language, their chief god was Dagon, they ceased to be a nation by 732BC (Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria) but did assimilate into the population. Why else should they be mentioned in Macabees 3? You and company miss the point. There has always been a population in Palestine which remained from ages ago, only the Israelites and later the Jews were deported or exiled. You can pooh-pooh the fact that ancient genes of Canaanites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Hebrews, etc., live on in the population. They adapted to each conquest, becoming Christian under Byzantium, many became Muslim (7th c.)

...that "ducky" is a term of endearment in London, where I grew up!

Mark Lincoln. I sent you a post-707# (nice number) re-your post-681 re-Gaza & the Warsaw Ghetto. Runing away from the Truth on such a sensitive subject: Is no credit to yourself to keep silent!!

Silveenne. You are right about my mistake on my post-694. SOrry.

Kath. Unless I misunderstood.KUTW-238;speaks from a a 'faint heart".History needs an upside down nock.Israel in 1948 was a poor country.Beging for survival.Clinching to every straw.NOT TODAY. Israel made a wonderful home for the Jews.Just about large enough as it is now.Israel must have the COURAGE to speak the Truth without fear or favour. The Land that was made JORDAN was taken from Israel & the Palestinians.JORDAN is NOT carved in STONE.JORDAN is just a country that was drawn on a map.Mind you Kath there is more Jealousy & Hate in the Middle East than Oil. If we are not strong we will be washed away Abass and the rest of the so called Moderate where there,all of them,in Oslo.They did nothing for the Palestinians and nothing for Israel ! Why try them again ?Washington must be where the TRUTh should start.There is no TRUTH in Diplomacy.Every Jewish Holy Grave MUST be inside Israel.It is our freehold deed and it can't be otherwise. Time history speak.Shana Tova.

The Romans dedicated the name Palestine to the area that's called Gaza, where the Phillistines resided..The name was later corrupted and assigned to Israel & Judea...Palestine never existed it was created by the Romans.. I'll ask you, as I've asked others (knowing of course you'll never answer, you just run away) Can you give me the site of any one Palestinian TEL or where I can see a Palestinian coin that dates back to Roman times???..Palestine as you claim, it is a creation of Yasser Arafat, circa 1967...

Re. Ahmedinejad and Bush, the level of YOUR regard for the individual is not what determines whether or not they are the "people's choice". Do you understand now?

Hala. "These matters are decided by people who are determind to be a nation" Hala. The truth must be known to all those seriously concerned about this conflict.These must be the last words coming from Israel. And made known. And stick to it.Made the TRUTH known: JORDAN IS PALESTINE:That must be the starting point for any solution.Jordan is a Nation drawn on a map. Jordan knew it is a nation for an imperialist convenience.Just like East Bangal when India was divided.Just like Yugoslavia when the federation was formed.Just like Kurdistan History has its own logic.Our Job is NOT to solve others problems.Our Job is to solve OUR peoblems.Israel should made it clear there are historic roots to this conflict,that should NOT be ignored on the expense of Israel.Those roots must be addressed for a JUST solution. Giving Israeli land to the Palestinians will not solve their problem.Taking land from them will also NOT solve the problem. Hala please keep writing about it.Thanks.

Only the rural Jews of Judea spoke Aramaic. The urban classes spoke mostly Hebrew.

It is possible to theorize what people might have considered themselves in the first to seventh century AD, but difficult to assert it. For example, I would imagine that some would have considered themselves to be Roman subjects. Others might have considered themselves to be primarily from a particular town, village or even extended family or clan. It is also difficult to claim with any certainty exactly which Palestinians today are the direct descendants of inhabitants from the first to seventh centuries AD, and which, through a variety of reasons, immigrated over subsequent centuries. It is also easy to assert that European Jews are not descendants of those who lived in Palestine, but just as difficult to prove as it would be that any individual Palestinian today is a descendant of inhabitants from 1400 years ago. (And why only European Jews?) In other words, we're probably all better off today recognizing both "claims" as just that.

I see you're out of your institution again. Week end pass maybe?

Hala made a clear and simple argument supporting what you just said, that the ancient seafaring uncircumsized and pagan Philistines merged into various populations, and disappeared. And then Hala went on to explain to you that in ancient times, Jews, Christians and Muslims in the first to seventh century AD would have considered themselves descendents of the Philistine region and the Philistine people. And then Hala showed you that those descendents, who have lived first as Jews, then as Christians, and some as Muslims ... have more claim to be Philistine than the European Jews that emigrated there. Do as Hala does Kath, read more.

The people of the area governed by the Romans spoke Aramaic. The Romans mispronounced Philistine, Palestine, way back then. They renamed it Palestine (or Philistine pronounced wrongly) in order to punish the Judeans who they felt were mounting a rebellion. The descendents of those people, the Arabs and Jews, all would have called the land that the Romans mispronounced ... Philisteen.

Okay, I admitted to a factual mistake and acceded to your definition of a ?boycott? , although I don?t consider that a group that has explicitly declared itself as not being a political party that fields candidates in elections (which was their explicit position at the time) actually not fielding a candidate as a ?boycott?. This, however, still does not change my basic argument: That the Palestinians chose both Abbas and a Hamas-led PLC within very different contexts. That is, the argument that one is more the ?people?s choice? than the other is simply unfounded. In fact, the situation is quite similar to that in Israel when there was direct election of the Prime Minister. Voters cast one ballot for an individual to form the government, and another ballot for a party list for the Knesset (which had to approve the government). I would add that your argument about Abbas having a ?free run due to the absence of the main opposition to him? is also a bit flimsy. Hamas did not have an individual candidate of stature at the time who could serve as a ?heavyweight option?, while Marwan Barghouti was clearly seen as a Fatah player (even if his wife did register him to run as an ?independent?).

You sound rather intolerant and belligerent Kath', and bearing in mind Hala has been perfectly polite, and by the way she is extremely well informed on the matters she writes on here, you could show a bit more respect. Hala's posts 746,7,8 and 750 are essentially correct and borne out by modern scholarship. tsk tsk.

KUTW Abass is an old communist. He study in Moscow and obtain his dgree in whatever . More imprtant. Abass was a senior member of the Palestinians team in OSLO. Now he is preceived as one of the Leading Moderate. All those so called Moderate were in Oslo. What did they achieved ?! This is the question Israel should ask itself before going or NOT going to Washington. They failed once to prove themselves as Moderate and they no credit to show for it. The Palestinians NOW on their last leg. Israel must bring its two spare legs from the Arc to the Bima. Faith & the Truth. Todays overture of Peace is a Trap. It has all the signs of an Arabian Suk. Bargain and Steal. Israel needs not to Bargain or Steal. All it wants its safe home. Abass can't give Israel that. He failed the Palestinians and he failed the Israelis & the internatioanl community that gave him more than the help he deserved. Washington,if it will happend, must be the point of SHOWDOWN.

No time for extensive body work or plastic surgery...They will get what's on hand, as is.. The can always put a veil over the face and conceal it totally...

What's with the stolen cars??..Is someone buying or selling???..Let's have some details about this subject...Thanks

He didn't have religious training...The spiritual designation was an honor...The same as giving someone a doctorate who hadn't earned it..He incited them spiritually since he coulnd't put his malfunctioning body where his words were...

It's a pity that you don't have the ability to read two sequential posts...Here's one by an ARAB, who is an expert in the field... You apparently are a disciple of Joseph Goebels".. "THE HISTORY http://www.vibrani.com/Palestinians.htm PALESTINE ? HISTORY OF "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not." --- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946. You can't rely on the accounts for history in most Arab nations, because they never accurately teach it, and have this amazing habit of reinventing it on the spot. This whole notion of there being a Palestine is a recent invention - 1967 to be exact. The homeland of the so-called Palestinians is not Israel. The historical homelands of these nomadic Arabs (Ottomans and Turks) are Jordan, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia, and approximately 80% of the Jordanian population is made up of Palestinians. They were exiled from these nations, and others, because they were always trouble makers and no one wanted them. To this day Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other nations finance Arafat and his terrorists in order to keep them out of their countries. "From the end of the Jewish state in antiquity to the beginning of British rule, the area now designated by the name Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries . . . . " -- Professor Bernard Lewis, Commentary Magazine, January 1975. Let's backtrack into history a bit and show how this developed: The holiest place for Islam is Mecca, not Jerusalem. Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the Koran. Jerusalem IS mentioned over 700 times in the Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. The Jews were only continuous and stable population in the region from time immemorial - they did not abandon Jerusalem, even after the Roman conquest in A.D. 70. Israel has been the homeland of the Hebrews for almost six thousand years. Muhammad (who started Islam) was born in the year 570. Islam is the only religion that defiles other religions, churches, temples, shrines, and graves HERE?S THE LINK ? FEEL FREE TO READ IT IN IT?S ENTIRETY http://www.vibrani.com/Palestinians.htm

As the old laundries used to say "No tickee no washee"...No address in the first line, your mail get's dumped as unworthy..Somebody else may want to read it, I won't...

"Okay, I stand corrected".(Barghouti) "Re. the `boycott`, if you want to consider the fact that Hamas neither fielded a candidate or endorsed one of the seven presidential candidates, then so be it." (ie: they boycotted it) JES Better late than never. It matters because if I contend that Abbas had a free run due to the absence of the main opposition to him,(in Barghouti or a Hamas candidate) it certainly doesn't invalidate his election but it places it in context. People had a choice of Hamas and Fatah as well as some independents in the 2006 election; they didn't have anything like the range of heavyweight options available in the 2005 presidential option. As most if not all independent observers commented. HE HAD A CLEAR RUN. Mustapha Barghouti was of no great significance. ie: no one gave him a cat in hell`s chance. In response to your Iranian analogy. I previously noted the comment from you referring to Ahmedinejad as my idol! I have said that Bush and he deserve one another. I have no regard for Bush, so you should draw the logical conclusion. He is however, (unlike Bush) NOT the leading political figure in Iran. Finally. I have answered your question many times. I have essentially done so again above. Yet I have been forced for the sake of accuracy to repeat and substantiate the claims of a boycott and withdrawal re: 2005 election. Tedium ad nauseum as they say. Abbas has a mandate that is not without merit, but as I have frequently elucidated, (but were you paying attention?) there are limits to Abbas claim to a people`s choice for President in comparison to Hamas` more impressive result, (not because it was more recent, as you seemed to think I was claiming).but because it was contested in a manner that the Presidential election was not. See first paragraph. Ciao.

Actually, the census figures that I have seen for Palestine in 1890 list about 500,000 Muslims and Christians and 43,000 Jews. Many were new immigrants, but many of the Jews were from families long resident in Palestine. Of course a large percentage of the local Arab population was undoubtedly resident for centuries. Many were undoubtedly the descendants of early Christians or Jewish converts to Islam. (I have read that it was once common for other Palestinian Arabs to refer to Muslim Arabs from Hebron as ?Jews?.) But you neglect other important, and well documented facts. When Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt conquered Palestine in the 1830s, he brought with him thousands of Egyptian peasants who set up villages along the coastal plain. (This is probably the reason that many Palestinians have the name al-Masri: the Egyptian.) The Ottoman Sultan gave tracts of land to non-Arab (and non-Semitic) Muslims, including Qabilis (from Algeria), Bosnians and Circassians. All of these new populations arrived at approximately the same time as the new Jewish populations from Europe. There were also new populations who arrived during the mandate from North Africa and Sudan.

Just one point here. Michael Scheuer was a CIA official in charge of the Osama bin Laden unit. He was not a "Bush official".

Hala Get it once and for all.The Philistines were of Greek origine and yes! they did eventually disappear.No need to elaborate onyou skewed view and prouncements by thrying to submit falsehood and we all know the historical narrative concerning those "sea faring"people called Philistines and no connection whatever to the Arab/Palis who adopted their nomeclature only recently by the rat arafat in 1963.Get thee to a new historical perspective and no nuances in your waffling here will make a dent in the truth whatever... No further idiotic comments from you is needed.

I use that intro, coz I think it?s what gets through to you, sonny. Okay, I stand corrected. Marwan Barghouti?s wife actually did register him as a candidate just prior to the deadline for doing so, and then he retracted his candidacy. Re. the ?boycott?, if you want to consider the fact that Hamas neither fielded a candidate or endorsed one of the seven presidential candidates, then so be it. Did this, however, have the effect on the validity of the election that you claim. Turnout for the presidential elections was given by the Central Elections Committee as 66.54% The CEC gave a figure of 77% for the PLC elections in 2006. Is this 10% difference enough to declare Hamas the ?people?s choice? and invalidate Abbas as President? I think not. Just by way of comparison, Iranian opposition figures claim that their boycott in the first round of the Iranian presidential elections were what force a runoff between Ahmedinejad and Rafsanjani. Further, in the only elections held since then, those for the Councils and Assembly of Experts, Ahmedinejad?s candidates failed miserably and did not achieve a majority in either the local councils or the Assembly. Does this invalidate Ahmedinejad as the ?people?s choice?? So this brings me back to the original question that I asked: Why you are so confident that Hamas is the "people`s choice" while Mahmoud Abbas is not?

First, the historical data which I mention are not "mine," I happen to read. The facts are facts, not fake. Arabs did not "steal" the land from the Jews. The Jews had not been in power since the 6th c. BC, after the kingdoms of Israel and Judaea had ceased to exist. Herod was made king of the Jews by the Romans, and he was an Arab of the Idumaeans, who had been forcibly converted to Judaism by John Hyrcanes. After Roman rule, the Byzantines took over from AD330 to 634, during which time Palestine became a great center of Christianity. That is why so many Arab Christians belong to the Byzantine rite. Those are for sure the descendants of the ancient Christians of Palestine.

My ideology does not embrace the concept of "chosen people." God created us all. Or did the devil create the bad people who commit atrocities? Speaking of which, Deuteronomy tells us that the Israelites slaughtered all the living beings in Canaan and took possession of all their property. Is that a way for "chosen people" to behave?

The argument is not whether the natives of the region named FILASTEEN (Palestine, to non-Arabs) are descended directly from the ancient Philistines, it is whether they are indeed natives of the region, hence descendants of the Semites who have been living in the area for millennia. And they are natives of the region. Which is more than the immigrants from Europe, US, Ethiopia, etc. can say. Some are descendants of the ancient Jews who converted first to Christianity then, some, to Islam in the course of the various occupations. The Christianity of Mr. Khoury is more "pure" than that of the Europeans, since the first converts were Jews and other natives of the region, like Samaritans and Canaanites. Yes, Jesus Christ was a a Jew, but he was for all peoples.

Pride and anger overcame better judgment. The Arabs had been fighting the influx of immigrants since the early 1900's, since it was obvious from the start how they would be treated. Unfortunately, Western involvement in the Middle East has not favored the natives.

No one said there the ancient Philistines "remain" as a nation. Nor did they "disappear" as if zapped with a ray gun. They merged with the population, their existence is written of c. 8rh c. BC. The name of the region remains, and the natives who have been living there for centuries, and who are Semitic, have chosen to be called FILASTEEN. How can anyone know for sure whether the ancestors of all Jews had property in Palestine? The ancient Israelites have vanished as a people, the Judaeans also haave been dispersed, mingling with different peoples in the Diaspora. The natives of Palestine, having lived in the same region, which was always populated, please do not repeat the myth that the place was empty until a bunch of Egyptian, Syrian, etc. Arabs all rushed there. Besides, all those Semites are related. The 1890 census has 500,000 Arabs living in Palestine, and some 20,000 Jews, many immigrants from Europe during the First Aliyah.

You seem to consider that this TB is some sort of game for you to pass the time,judging by some of your posts anyway. For many here,this is serious stuff. I really have little to contribute,which is why I seldom post,but lately you seem to be determined to make yourself look foolish,with some of your meaningless posts. Saving the whales is a nice safe cause for you to defend..you should try it..the pals are beyond help anyway.

She understands quite well his popularity and who he is, but as usual, she is lost. I sent you a citation for the Bush official who said the US should drop Israel like a hot potato---he just happened to be on Bill Maher, like Senators and Presidential candidates---Lynn doesn't know what she is talking about. Excuse her will you? Did you get a chance to read and/or hear the citations? Regards.

Say dude, anybody who does not agree with you is antisemitic; if they are Jewish they are self hating Jews. I gave Silvienne the citations that were given to me and she can read/hear them and make up her own mind---what about it? You just shovel BS and it is like sand against the tide. Lotsa Jews don't agree with Zionists, sniff it up, I am sure there will be many more. I always laugh when I read Zionists questioning who the Pals are, the indigenous folks of the land whereas you and yours are converted imports from Europe attempting to usurp and put a false claim on the Holy Land. That is called chutzpah! Regards.

"Finally, regarding all your wasted verbage on Hamas, there was no boycott of the presidential election. Hamas , not yet defining itself as a political party, did not participate". 707 JES JES. You are increasingly anal. The BBC believe the presidential election was BOYCOTTED by Hamas. JES just thinks they didn’t take part.(pedantic or obtuse??) Read below and let it permeate the parts that other posts have not reached. http://english.people.com.cn/200412/02/eng20041202_165881.html The radical Hamas group announced on Wednesday that it would BOYCOTT the presidential election due on Jan. 9, 2005. Speaking to reporters, senior Hamas leader Isma'eel Haneya said that his movement made a decision to BOYCOTT the election. "Hamas declares its BOYCOTT and not to participate in the presidential election," he said, adding that such a decision was based on the Palestinian popular demand to hold comprehensive elections. [End Story.] More nonsense from you, JES in 707. "If there was no opposition, then how did Mustafa Barghouti garner nearly 20% of the vote? Further, as I recall, Marwan Barghouti didn`t withdraw from the race. He never entered it. " JES. Dec. 6 - The two leading Palestinian presidential candidates, Mahmoud Abbas and Marwan Barghouti, are in a statistical dead heat ahead of the election next month to succeed Yasir Arafat, two opinion polls released Monday indicate. New York Times. Dec. 12 - The imprisoned leader of the Palestinian uprising, Marwan Barghouti, withdrew from the Palestinian presidential race on Sunday. His decision removes any serious challenge to Mahmoud Abbas in the Jan. 9 vote for a successor to Yasir Arafat as head of the Palestinian Authority. New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/international/middleeast/07mideast.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fA%2fAbbas%2c%20Mahmoud&oref=slogin

I'd go along with that....But in heaven these old and ugly ones are changed into beautiful virgins by this ALLAH for them mytars..he..he..

Israel can not give Hamas what Hamas wants. Hopefully, Israel can give Fatah what it needs??

hala, the Philistines have VANISHED FROM THE EARTH, 3,000 years ago. Their heathen culture - among others, they were uncircumcized - has disappeared. A few ruins remain. No language or religion can be identified as 'Philistine' today. Of course, one should seriously question the sanity of mind of those who adopt the identity of a long-extinct nation as the Philistines. But that is another question. Two things do remain all the way from the time of the Philistines: the People of Israel and antisemitism. Choose your partners and role models wisely, I would say.

WHAT WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN THE ACTUAL ACCOUNT OF THE 48 WAR WAS 10 ARAB ARMIES VS ONE RAG TAG SPIT AND GLUE PUT TOGETHER FROM SPARE PARTS DISPLACED WW2 NAZI CAMP INMATES WITH 5 SPITFIRES 10 ME109,S ONE B 17 AND A HAND FULL OF OLD BOLT ACTION MAUSERS AT THE MOST 1000 SEASONED SOILDERS FROM FORMER BRITISH AND AMERICAN FORCES CLOSE YOUR FAIRY TALE BOOK

HAMAS must be in the sun they forget sometimes the over inflated numbers are not going only to Arab news outlets but to the western world .lets make it realistic 5,000 to 10,000. and one more word don'T START HIDING BEHIND YOUR WOMAN AND CHILDREN AGAIN YOU BRAG ABOUT YOUR ADVANCED TRAINING AND WEAPONS SYSTEMS.FIGHT TOE TO TOE THIS TIME LIKE MEN NO MORE DANCING AROUND THE RING CAN YOU DO IT ????

for every rocket that hits israeli soil increase the size by 1km or if the population has a problem with that solution blanket bomb as the britsh american air raids over german cities

Elias Khoury, you seem to suggest that it doesn't matter whether a person calls himself a Roman, a Palestinian or a Christian. But it does. When you have an identity, you can be held responsible for your successes and your failures. There is your problem: you refuse to adopt an identity. You refuse to really commit and do your best. That's why you do not have a country of your own. That is why your 'nationality' is not recognized, even in the Arab world. You present yourself as anti-Israel and you claim that the majority holds your opinion. But apart from that, you have no commitment. All you are willing to vouch for is your hatred for the Jews. I am sorry to confirm that all this does not make an identity. Your vagueness has no future. You will always feel a stranger. Until you adopt a positive identity, you will rightly remain a fugitive whom nobody will want to have around.

It is not a state what those Arabs want. If they did, they had not refused it every time it was offered to them. Moreover, their stated desire is to wipe the Jews off the ME and seize their country because it is a Waqf. So your friends admit they are occupiers but, according to the jihad ideology, they believe it is fair to steal others? land.

You are right that you exist. If you didn?t, there would not be hamas, etc. A different matter is who are the true Palestinians, which you are not, as history shows. You say you are a Christian? And don?t you know Jesus was a Jew? Being a Christian, arent you ashamed to support jihad?

You are no different than Nazis. Whether we're Palestinians, Arabs, Romans, whatever, we are the Arabs who lived in the territory known as Mandated Palestine, and were the large majority of this land up to 1948. We will never disappear. Go ahead Israel, begin your rampage in Gaza, you can murder thousands. We will never disappear. We are here for the duration. Perseverance wins in the end all the time. In 1948, after Israel was established, the Jews outnumbered the Arabs 4 to 1 in Israel, Gaza, and West Bank. Now it's 1 to 1 nearly. I am a Christian, and I am a seed of Christ, and I am a Palestinian, and very proud to be one. How many massacres from Deir Yassin, to Qana, Sabra and Shatila, Jenin, etc has Israel committed, and well, we're still here. You will never ever force us from this land. The only way is to employ the final solution of your predecessor Hitler. This is the only way to get rid of us. Even then, we'll resist the occupier.

Abbas and such people deny Holocaust or use it against its victims depending on the circumstances. I read an interview with Abbas about the Camp Davis talks. Abbas said that Israel was thinking of reducing the budget for something and because of this he (Abbas) understood what Hitler had done to the Jews.

Keep dreaming with your fake history. That land has been stolen in late 6 AD by the Arabs from the Jews and now we have it and no one will take it back from Jews any more

I'll agree, the suicide bombing strategy is stupid, ignorant, and repulsive. However, the West Bank is not firing rockets into Israel, yet Israel continues to suffocate the Palestinians in the West Bank, it continues to allow illegal settlement expansions. The Palestinians don't have any good faith from Israel that ending resistance will bring about a just peace. There is no encouragement. Israel and Hamas have a cordial relationship, not figuritively, but by practice. Both parties always find ways to derail any chance of progressing forward to final agreement talks. As far as Gaza, there will be collateral damage for the Palestinians, and all Israel is going to do is have more enemies than currently. The Palestinians cannot have this peace conference in November until they get their house in order and come to some sort of agreement with a unity government, for the people, by the people, and yes that will include religious parties as Israel has right wing religious parties.

It is a very interesting post, but you see, I cannot help you in spreading that belief. Neither you nor I can tell the Palestinians who they are and where their country is. These matters are decided by a people who are determined to be a nation. It does not look like the populace of the West Bank and Gaza will be moving to Jordan or changing the name of their territory to Jordan. Sorry.

Do you think the chosen people are really the hamas, Islamic jihad, Hitler, etc.and so they are allowed to commit atrocities?

Michael Jacobs, the Arabs have always called the region FILASTEEN, not because the phoneme /p/ is not in the phonetic system of Arabic but because the original name, as attested in OT, begins with the /f/ sound (Philista, Philistines). It was the Greek modification of the /f/ to /p/, as attested by Herodotos in his Histories c. 440BC, when he refers to the region as SYRIA PALAESTINA. That passed on to Latin and is so pronounced today in most languages, but not by the Arabs, who kept the original pronunciation. If the word PALESTINE had come first, the Arabs would call it BALESTINE, which they do when pronouncing the English version of that name. But they do not. It has always been FILASTEEN, as in the name of the first nationalist newspaper published in Haifa in 1911 by Issa-al-Issa. Why else would the people have decided to use that name widely in the 1960's. It was already there.

?As you say, the Chosen People, and look what God allowed to happen to them in WW2? And what do you think the reason was for this? These comments of yours and hala speak volumes about your quality as human beings. You are mocking the Jews as the chosen people using the victims of the Holocaust. What do you mean by your statements? That this was done to show they are not the chosen people? And what?s up to you if they are or arent?

"When asked if you would cede YOUR place in the USA to the Native Americans if THREATENED by them, or even if `international law` stipulated you to do so, you don`t reply". Michael, you have asked me that exact same question over three times, and I have responded to it more than once. If you'll allow me, I'm giving it a miss this time. As you say, the state of Israel exists and persists because its people make an effort (we won't mention all the money my country gives it, of course)... But if the Palestinians were allowed to create their own state and had a chance, they could be just as prosperous as Israel. They are not being given the chance because Israel wants to hold on to the West Bank for its settlement programme. I think you know that's true.

Sheik Yassin was the spiritual leader of Hamas, not the operational leader (that was Al Rantisi). Bin Laden is the operational leader of Al Quaeda. Sheik Yassin was crippled and blind almost from childhood. Bin Laden is healthy. Sheik Yassin was not responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 Israelis. Bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 Americans. You really cannot plausibly compare Sheik Yassin to bin Laden. That's what I think.

It does not matter if Bin Laden is already dead. He has (or had) his kidneys bad to the point that he needed dialysis. The core of the matter is that you want him to be killed EXTRA -JUDICIALLY, even though he is (or was) ill and did not crash the planes into the World Trade Center.

?The late Sheihk Yassin was the spiritual leader of Hamas.? Which shows what the spirituality of those people consists of, murdering as many people as possible. And they do it extra judicially. You want Bin Laden to be killed extra-judicially.

In their history, the Jewish people have rebelled against oppression and occupation. So why do they bother telling the Palestinians to stop resisting occupation and just swallow it? After all, they are related, n'est-ce pas?

what power did lord caradon have to change the 1922 mandate labrat! none whatsoever! unscr242 /338 were written knowing that but they had to mollify the arabs and their supporters. YOU CANNOT OCCUPY YOUR OWN LAND ! PERIOD !

Asking Silvienne what she would do if faced with an Amerindian who wanted his territory back is like fighting bullets with bubbles. You know that it is too late to "give back" the territory. No one can tell exactly where such and such an Amerindian had ancestors who lived in a particular place, the takeover and slaughter took place when Manifest Destiny was acceptable. How can that situation be compared to a takeover of a land in the twentieth century, when colonialism and population transfer are considered crimes against humanity? You should ask yourself what you would do if a Palestinian came up to you with the deed to his house and land and asked for your help in getting his property back. Or how about those whose villages were destroyed who beg to be allowed to visit a father's grave and could point to it even among the rubble? Shame.

Who is to say how a people adopts an identity? For hundreds of years, the occupying Russians and Poles kept saying that there is no such thing as Ukrainian, there are still Russians today who say that both are the same language (!?), but guess what, in 1992, the free land of Ukraine was finally declared. And Moldava came into being, and Macedonia, much to the anger of the Greeks, who loathe the Slavs' taking on of that name. But even though the Bulgarian Slavs who had been living in that territory for hundreds of years are not related to the ancient Greek Macedonians, they decided to be called by the name of the territory--and they exist. So the Palestinians want to be called FILASTEEN, as recorded in the newspaper published by Issa-al-Issa in Haifa in 1911, when nationhood was but a budding concept, and so they are called. Too late now, the baptism has taken place, the name sticks.

So why can those empires never be revived again but Israel can? That is not fair. And God shows a very strange love for the "apple of his eye" if he allowed the Nazi slaughter, the Inquisition, the pogroms, the constant attacks by angry natives in Palestine who are quite upset that their land has been stolen or occupied. Israel did not last very long the first time, who knows what will happen the way that things are going. For sure, the demographics will determine the status quo in the next decades.

"Then why did you respond with talk of Abbas having a better claim as he received a strong mandate in the previous year`s presidential election?" Short answer Hubal: I didn't say any such thing. You assumed it. What I tried to point out to you is that in a presidential system with a separation of legislative powers, one election does not invalidate another. (which is what you're argument implies). In the US, for example, both houses of Congress can change party majority every two years. The President doesn't simply resign if his party is voted out. Regarding voter turnout and the size of the field, this is simply irrelevant. If there was no opposition, then how did Mustafa Barghouti garner nearly 20% of the vote? Further, as I recall, Marwan Barghouti didn't withdraw from the race. He never entered it. Finally, regarding all your wasted verbage on Hamas, there was no boycott of the presidential election. Hamas , not yet defining itself as a political party, did not participate. I suppose you could call this a "boycott" (although it is quite clear that Mahmoud az-Zahar did not ? you really must learn about the difference between an attributable paraphrasing by a reporter and a quote when making citations). In other words, Hamas did not go out and tell people not to vote and, in fact, the turnout in the presidential election was ? as I recall ? somewhere around 70% As far as Hamas wanting Abbas to negotiate directly with Israel, you might want to take a look at Hamas' pre-conditions (not to mention its Convenant) before terming Israeli pre-conditions (what were these by the way?) unrealistic.

It was called Palaestina by the Romans, long before you were born. They adapted it from the Hebrew word for the South Coastal people - which was Philistines, from the root, Palash which means rolling or wandering.

Israel doesn't decide for Gaza where they should use their electricity. Israel still supplies fuel for the Gazan generators. Hamas decides where to use it. If they want to keep the bosses' houses electrified instead of the hospitals I presume that's their decision. Meanwhile in the hospital bed next to my friend there's a Gazan child with a broken leg that wasn't getting proper attention in Gaza. His parents have nothing but praise for the Israeli hospital and the treatment that they get there and nothing but blame for the Gazan government that neglects their citizens.

You see Tosefta as more giving or more flexible towards our adversaries. That indicates that you're still on our side. Tosefta has made the great leap and is on their side while still retaining for himself the privileges of claiming our advantages. I think that this is what Danite objects to. It's what I object to.

Ahmed Yassin was neither blind nor particularly old.

"Who are the most perscuted people today" hala All those who are perscuted by their 'brothers'

The only Apartheid is ignorance, and you have plenty of that in Arab Lands.

danite Peres (The President) created the Palestinian Frankenstein.

Mr Lincoln. Your post-680# is a travesty of history,next to the denial of the Holocaust.Gaza is NOT a Ghetto that was made by Israel. "Germany was right in it's approach to Warsaw Ghetto" Lincoln.Germany TOOK the Jews to the Warsaw Ghetto.The Palestinians are LIVING in Gaza.Israel declared Gaza a free State when Israel withdraw from Gaza and left the Palestinans to govern themselves and supplied them with electricity,water,& helped them to collect Taxes?Did Germany do that for the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto?Be honest and stop vilify history. If you have motives to call Gaza a Ghetto you are free to do so.But blaming Israel for making Gaza a Ghetto as the Warsaw Ghetto you are like Ahmdinejade and the facists of our time.The Germans were NOT in a state of self-defence when the Jews were in the Warsaw Ghetto.Israel has been always in a situation of self-defence from inside Gaza.Hamas declared WAR on Israel.Israel is right to defend itself.Stop rubbishing History!

What kind of invective is, ducky?! You have a way of seeing things askance and with glaring inequities. Granted, the palestinians are suffering. Israel is a fact on the ground, if you will. Wouldn't it make the most basic common sense to deal with that fact, instead of breaking your collective head on the wall?!

"When asked if you would cede YOUR place in the USA to the Native Americans if THREATENED by them, or even if `international law` stipulated you to do so" I've replied to that question to you over three times, and even referred to it to other posters. I bother to come here, as you put it, for the same reason as every other pro-Palestinian poster. There are far less of us than there are of pro-Israel posters. We are here to speak for Palestinian rights. In that, I am indeed steadfast.

I see you have a knack for alliteration as well! - asinine, absurd, arrogant akiva.

Sheihk Yassin was a spiritual figurehead of Hamas, not an operational leader. Bin Laden is an operational leader. Yassin was blind and crippled almost since childhood. Bin Laden is not. Yassin was not responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 Israelis. Bin Laden is responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 Americans. You asked what I think. There it is. Even the most ardent zionist cannot plausibly compare Bin Laden to Sheihk Yassin.

Actually, isn't e.m. a big boy/girl and able to answer the post I addressed to him/her? I don't quite see the point of your post. Who was talking about "faith"...not me.

I may be absurd at times,...but Arrogant?, never! I've been at temple all day, so tou'll have to forgive,(or not), the delay in my response to your previous exceptions to MY previous posts... #73 about napalming funeral processions, admittedly, was over the top. But, just what do YOU consider suicide bombing,?,...legitimate resistance?

"Then why did you respond with talk of Abbas having a better claim as he received a strong mandate in the previous year`s presidential election?" Short answer Hubal: I didn't say any such thing. You assumed it. What I tried to point out to you is that in a presidential system with a separation of legislative powers, one election does not invalidate another. (which is what you're argument implies). In the US, for example, both houses of Congress can change party majority every two years. The President doesn't simply resign if his party is voted out. Regarding voter turnout and the size of the field, this is simply irrelevant. If there was no opposition, then how did Mustafa Barghouti garner nearly 20% of the vote? Further, as I recall, Marwan Barghouti didn't withdraw from the race. He never entered it. Finally, regarding all your wasted verbage on Hamas, there was no boycott of the presidential election. Hamas , not yet defining itself as a political party, did not participate. I suppose you could call this a "boycott" (although it is quite clear that Mahmoud az-Zahar did not ? you really must learn about the difference between an attributable paraphrasing by a reporter and a quote when making citations). In other words, Hamas did not go out and tell people not to vote and, in fact, the turnout in the presidential election was ? as I recall ? somewhere around 70% As far as Hamas wanting Abbas to negotiate directly with Israel, you might want to take a look at Hamas' pre-conditions (not to mention its Convenant) before terming Israeli pre-conditions (what were these by the way?) unrealistic.

Mark Lincoln, the Nazi's originated the term 'final solution'. The very idea of the 'final solution' was applauded and embraced by Husseini, the leading Palestinian Arab statesman of the time. Then came Germany's defeat and a rethinking of the 'final solution' in most of the Western world. In Arab countries, however, the thought of murdering the Jews is still held in high esteem TODAY. Just witness their press (see memri.org). You seem to deny that 'Palestinians' are ARABS. However, in truth, Palestinian attitudes towards the Jews and Israel are merely a reflection of what goes in the Arab world at large. Your heinous accusation that Israel wants to do away with the Palestinians constitutes a fantastic - yet classic - libel against the Jews. But your worst transgression is your wish to condone and hide the way most contemporary ARABS think.

That is essentially the US system, with the House being elected by district while the Senate is elected by state. There is a problem, however, with the possibility of gerrymandering, or politically-based redistricting. Of course the US also has a presidency and separation of powers. We have a tendency to adopt new electoral processes based on assumptions that are not well thought out. Remember the direct election of Prime Minister? This was supposed to solve all our problems with small parties and unstable governments. Well it didn't. In fact it made things worse. The Palestinians also adopted separation of powers between the president and PLC. As I was trying (unsucessfully, it appars) to point out to Hubal, the election of one does not void the election of the other.

"If American military murdered an Iraqi leader like Yassin...blind, crippled, old...there`d be hell to pay." What if Bin Laden becomes blind? Should America military then stop their efforts to capture / kill him? What if an old person massacred your family? Should they be absoved and free to act again because they are old? What do you think, Silvienne?

You must be insane.

palestinian identity only grew in response to zionism, untill then their was no palestinian identity, under the ottomans the area was not refered to as filastin at all.You are making far too much out of an occasional use of a generic term.Heroditus travelled up the coast on a ship, the coastal region still had its old philisitne name, but just inland it was Judah and samaria, the whole country was not called by palestine even by those who lived in philistia.

"Actually that was quite funny" Silvienne. What is 'funny' when you laugh at history. "Whatever are you on about em " ? Silvienne. Isn't that the depth of ignorance, when you ask a question for a question you pretend you have already answered ? You see Silvienne, you need to be Jewish to be fit to answer any question about Judaism. One can learn anything and everything but one can't learn one thing which is called 'FAITH'. Those who are Faithless; once they start talking about Faith they start talking rubbish. Judaism is Faith. That is why Judaism servived (such a small nation survived more than 3000 years). Big Empires came and gone only Judaism stays. Isn't that as em-598 said 'Judaism can stay till the end of time'. So keep your giggle Silviuene,unless you want to giggle at yourself. At the end,History always giggles at the faithless.

Jeff wrote----"Moral sanctuary is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Jeff I do believe the title "Scoundrel" is more aptly applied to he who supports the Apartheid State of Israel.Yep,I know, you disagree.Well you may not personally disagree, but we dont know your personal opinion,do we Jeff.We just know the "Professional one". You suggest that Israel,s flagrant violations of Human rights are going unoticed,because you believe that uncle Sam will provide sanctuary for Israel,s criminals, by pushing the veto button .The ICJ/UNHRC and other bodies are busy assembling a very damning set of evidence against the rogue State of Israel.A day will come. The territories are occupied as is Gaza.You can sit and ignore facts all you want.Lord Caradon did not intend for Israel to annex land as it sees fit.That would hardly give Israel a reason to make peace. Again Jeff, you lack an ability to look beyond your nose, or should that be Wallet.

Silvienne, for you, the idea that the Arabs could be lacking in good will seems tantamount to treason. With every comment you post here, you make clear that you are NOT in favor of the Jews. I keep wondering why you bother to visit this place to begin with. If you can apply justice to the Arabs but not to the Jews, you are a bigot. If you can accept the THEORY of peace but not its PRACTICE, you are in denial of the reality which is before you. When asked if you would cede YOUR place in the USA to the Native Americans if THREATENED by them, or even if 'international law' stipulated you to do so, you don't reply. But your silence on this matter speaks volumes... The State of Israel exists and persists for the most part because its people simply make an effort. Your failure to appreciate this turns you into a fanatic. Is that how you wish to appear?

You have forsaken your soul!"You are either for me or against me."They could be right but maybe not."It's either yea or nay!"You have the mind of the "Dictators."always,leaning into someone's tangents of life,to rob and steal etc.

"Israel advising Burma to go easy on protesters.Joke of the /century.. Silvienne see other thread.It is under the "More Headlines section". I already posted there...can you believe their bloody nerve!!! What a pity it is that the zionists here have so little sense of humour that they'll miss the joke...! Regards

"Oh pleeze! You have more social commentary in your posts then Bill Maher has on his show" Well, I didn't say he was a genius, did I:)

If you stick around here, dear Fortuna, you'll see strings of posts by one person, then by another person, because some posters sit down and write all their posts at once, while others dribble them out during the day one and time sort of thing. Thanks for writing!

"Will be cursed as they curse!"A promise from God Almighty!

Know a lot about stolen cars, do you, ducky?

Israeli tour guide as BEN JABO Ben Jibberish.

Your post was extremely thought-provoking; I'd simply never thought of that before. As you say, the Chosen People, and look what God allowed to happen to them in WW2, and so on...

Bush and Olmert are both men which by either wars of conquest or "convergence" have proven that they only believe in "unilateral" action. Yet Olmert refuses to discuss or engage in the only "unilateral" action which could resolve the Israeli-Palestinian war. If Israel refuses to engage in any honest give and take. Any honest negotiations. If it insists that whatever the "Settlers" want the Settlers will get; then there is only ONE possible outcome to the struggle with the Palestinians. It is not my choice. It is not the choice of anyone but Israel. Israel and no one else must make the decision on how the war with Palestine will end. Will it end in compromise, which is to say the 1967 green line, or will it end in the elimination of any threat from the West Bank and Gaza? What will it be Israel? What do you want to do? Give the West Bank and Gaza back or exterminate the Palestinians? Nothing less - either way - will work. Shit or get off the pot.

For myself there is an impossible dichotomy. Israel MUST exist because the world had proved, over and again, that Jews need a place to go when no other place was safe. Palestinians need a place to go, when Jews will not allow them any place to live. Forget other "Arab" nations. Those nations have made it clear that they would rather see the Palestinians suffer and die than give them a home. This is a situation that exists between Palestinians and Israel. As much as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi might wish a solution - peace - the ONLY people who can deliver that solution are Israelis and Palestinians. As the Palestinians have no government and no nation, and Israel has both a government and total military power - ONLY Israel can enable a solution. Certainly after the attempt by Fatah to exterminate Hamas in Gaza, there can be no question that ONLY Israel can do what has to be done - and both sides will have to make concessions and accept casualties - if there is ever to be any peace.

Was Germany right in establishing the Warsaw Ghetto and then ensuring that the residents would slowly starve to death? Was it correct in claiming that those residents of the Warsaw Ghetto were terrorists when they used armed force to oppose those Nazis who oppressed them? Is Israel a moral analog to Nazi Germany? NO it is not. Is Israel a nation which allows those amongst it who hold exactly the same view of Palestinians as Hitler had of Jews to control how it treats Palestinians? Not quite, but barely. Israel clearly wishes for the day when all Palestinians will starve to death or depart for some fantasy land in the east. Not all Israelis, but enough Israelis to ensure that the nation will never have any policy which does not have a "final solution" of the Palestinian problem as it's goal. Thus we have Palestinians who do not wish to die or disappear (as if there was somewhere they could disappear to). And thus we have this - to me - impossible situation.

Hala-655# to Fox 627#.The following from an authorized source:"The name Palestine refers to region of the eastern Mediterranean coast from the sea to Jordan valley and from the southern Negev desert to the Galilee lake region in the north"So,you see Hala.That includes Jordan.So you see Hala JORDAN IS PALESTINE.When Jordan taken from this land and carved into a country that was called Trans-jordan Palestine in 1922 the land can not be divided by Palestinians again who are NOT Arabs and their land taken from them by Jordan.The Arabs taken your Country. The fact remains that your claim as Palestinians should be made against the ARABS who took your land and call it Jordan.There was no land called JORDAN in History. You have no claim on what is left of that land since a) You have changed your Nationality.b)You You adopted a new religion.You are NOT the descents of your fathers any more.The Arabs took your land.Your claim is on Jordan.You ask Jordan to re-named PALESTINE

True, a certain wind of pragmatism and realism blows from Saudi Arabia. But I don't see that the Israel-is-here-to-stay is something Arabs say aloud. But let's suppose you are right, and the Beirut Platfom is sincere and truly shared by all signatary members of the Arab League. What about Syria, Lebanon, Yemen? And Iran is beyond the Legue. Even Iraq doesn't even dare to mention Israel in order not to run counter to the unwritten rejectionist consensus of the Arabs. It's that consensus which is irrelevant, Cipora. The problem is it has -as many Arab things- become a sacred cow nobody wants to be the first in calling it by its true name. In the meantime, Egypy renews ties with Ahmadinejad's Iran, and doesn nothing to curb Hamas from Gaza, on the contrary. Jordan is polite, yes. Some Gulf states wouldn't mind ties with Israel, just as Tusnisia and Morocco, but Heaven forbid to be seen really as the only and first ones, as courageous Saddat and King Hussein did.

Israel has over 10,000 Palestinian hostages in its prisons. What the heck, invade Gaza, kill 25,000 and take another 25,000 as "prisoners'.

they want to destroy you.don't be blind.they promise that if you blow up yourself,your family will get a lifetime monetary aid from the oil rich countries.you know what,they use you,they can't accept the fact that they've been defeated many times.they didn't win the lebanon war,nazrallah proclaimed he won the war,they did not.think about your future.if the hamas tell you to send quassams to sderot or negev,resist him.

on protesters.Joke of the /century.. Silvienne see other thread.It is under the "More Headlines section".

If you believe to that God which you have mentioned that only the God will be for ever then go and ask him that where was he when Hitler have killed 6 Millions Jews. But I promise one thing that in future never ever any nation or any religion groups will have the power to repeat the crimes that Roman Empire and Assyrians and Nazism and the others did to Jews Long life to State of Israel

Are you not slated for retirement yet. The Arab Nation seems to be getting very little for their money from you. First you plagerized and now you just repeat yourself ad finitum. REPEAT after me. Syria does not want Peace. Hamas is not moderating and MY PISHER FRIEND is not getting closer to losing his Moronic Idiocies. But is FOX right that you are a wannabee intellectual who is actually a janitor. I personally believe that you could be an Arab Barber with an inferiority complex.

what I see is....they're the one who brutalize the israelis and their own people.can't you see it, mark?as I said,if they stopped their illegal operations and rebellion,the idf/iaf won't hurt them.palestinians need good leaders,revise their charter and koran.change their goal in life[ not to destroy God's land and His people].God will give them peace,believe me.God will curse those that curse the jews and bless those that bless israel.

You would definitely qualify as HELL is full of your Murdering Heroes. Through your defense of them you have shown that you belong there. It would also be better all around you you joined them as a virgin and I have no problem even if you are a male. I am sure that your Shahids could care less either.

Oh pleeze! You have more social commentary in your posts then Bill Maher has on his show.

It's not my business who you are, or what you do. But I can't resist thinking of the time and energy you have to post here sometimes fivem seven, even ten posts in a row. I can't resist asking, even if i's just rhetorical, does someone pay you to spread your answers and comments?

according to their prophet...there are no women in their paradise...according to their hadith,women go to hell.

When Israel can turn off the utilities in and restrict access to and from Gaza at will, why should they try to occupy it?? Except for every other kind of warfare, urban warfare is the worst.

Israel, the divine promise, from the Nile to the Euphrates. Or Israel, the kingdom of David. Or Israel, consisting of both banks of the Jordan river. Or Israel, including the Golan heights. Which Israel do we refer to when we discuss its destruction? The land will not be destroyed, the Jews will not be destroyed. Either clear borders must be agree on (perhaps 1967), and then a Jewish State can remain. Or Israel must annex all the lands it controls, and the Zionist State will be destroyed, and a secular state for Jews, Muslims and Christians will be formed. The destruction of 'Israel' can be done fairly bloodless, I think.

Mr. Jovanosky (love that name), when the conditions are right, the Jews do their share of persecuting, just read the OT tales of slaughter of the Canaanites, Philistines, Amalekites. When the humanist Zionist Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginsberg of Kiev, Ukraine) visited Palestine in the 1890's, he decided against a Judenstaat in the region due to the violent conflict which was emerging between the native Palestinian Arab population and the European Zionist immigrants. By 1890, there were about 20 to 25,000 Jews, due to the First Aliyah. The rest of the population consisted of 500,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs. Ahad Ha'am decried how the European Zionists were treating the natives, with contempt, insults, cheating, violence. Ever since the first influx of superior, cultured European and American Jews, the native Arabs have been treated like scum that should be eliminated. They have been demonised, pushed out of their homes, killed like flies. How would you react?

It would not be publishable. Ahmadinejad is right about one thing. Independent and objective investigations into World War 2 and the holocaust are scorned and attacked, if they do not begin with the preconceived notion that the Jews were the biggest victims of World War 2. This book, of course, was published. So it could not be critical of Israel, then published by Yale. The Jews were victims of World War 2. So were the Palestinians. But books that explore both these sufferings, rather than focussing on the Jewish holocaust, are not publishable in America.

Palestine, the British word, is a perversion of the Arabic name for the region, which is properly called, Filisteen. Or Philistine if you prefer. The fact that the West decideds to call Beograd, Belgrade ... or Libnan, Lebanon ... or Suria, Syria ... means it is the english words that are perverting the names, not the other way around. There is no P in Arabic. Palestine is not the name of the country in Arabic. The name of the country is pronounced Philistine. The name the citizens of Philistine, are the Philistineeya. Palestine, and Palestinian are English words used to describe the region. The name of the occupied area is Philistine. The name of the occupied people are the Philstineeya.

Howdy Tosefta; So, now you fall back on the ICRC's conception of what is supposed to happen after your miserable defeat on the legal battlefield and your failure to pass a simple English, reading-comprehension test. Unfortunately, the ICRC's opinion (although well-respected by most up to a point) carries no legal weight whatsoever. Moral sanctuary is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Congratulations for being able to escape from being crushed militarily or legally and to find sanctuary behind the skirts of the ICRC. However, if you raise your head again with respect to an occupation where none exists, then I will oppose you and I will win again because you are dead wrong on this one. If I lose on the legal front, then I either adjust my argument accordingly or fall back on the military front, but if you lose on the legal front, then all you can do is to seek sanctuary in the nearest church, synagogue, or mosque? Furthermore, your personal insults are counterproductive to anything p

No stolen cars, you mean.

E.M I have said it time and again that bass is no better than Hamas and they are both the same side of the coin.Abass is a HOLOCAUST denier and still has his Fatah to kill the Jews.I would not trust him as far as I can throw him and you are quite right....keep posting we need to waken up the people here most of the time thanks for the posts you put out..

Hindus, Bahai, Parsi, Mormons, Sufis, Seventh Day Adventists, who cares? Someone is right, someone is wrong, maybe all are wrong, but not all can be right. Who knows God? If the Jews' rabid fundamentalist Christian supporters have their way, all Jews will be Christians so that they can be saved. Franchement, je m'en fous.

A hard price to pay, for being "the apple of God's eye." 6 million, murdered in a gruesome manner. If God loved his people so much, why did he allow such slaughter? Why does God allow the constant attacks on Israel? That is one of the least safe places for Jews in the world. The cock who crows at dawn will be boiling in a crock at twilight. Pride cometh before a fall.

Any brine thank you for the consideration. I am quite satisfied and content with what my brain possesss.Are you again refering to "Brine" shame on you prima pod/cone called Tosefta..

With what grinning, gloating glee do you report the results of your research into the background of Mark Lincoln! Do you not see anything slightly unsavory about this? Would you like an Israeli to do the same to you? But no matter. To proceed... Plus the fact, dear Fox, it really doesn't help your positions to search the universe for snippets about Mark Lincoln. To paraphrase another poster on these Talkbacks, "please think before you write". No-one is interested in your copious results of your "Dedicated Mark Lincoln Search". But they might be interested in hearing about your stated positions on Israel and the Palestinian people. I might be interested in that. Highest regards (as always)

This post reveals the dearth of knowledge about the region that Jews claim as their own. The original name of the region after which the Arabs living there have chosen as their national name is FILASTEEN (spelled Philista, Philistine in the OT). Although the name PALAESTINA, first recorded in the Greek by Herodotos in his Histories c. 440BC ("Syria Palaestina"--Greek replaced the F sound with P) became the common name of the region which was ruled by the Greeks then the Romans, the Arabic speaking peoples (yes, there were Arabs living in the area, such as the Nabataeans and the Idumaeans, why else would Herod have been labelled "the Arab?") kept the original sound of the F. In 1911, before the independence from the Ottomans (1917), Issa-al-Issa published the first Palestinian newspaper in Haifa, titled FILASTEEN. And he addressed his readers as Filasteen (Palestinians, in today's English and other languages, due to the Greco-Roman term). But nationalism was stifled by Zionism.

Bill Maher is both a comedian and a social commentator. Ballistic is right. What is so hard to understand about that?

Ben, Sheihk Yassin was the spiritual leader of Hamas. Al Rantisis - also killed by Israel - was the actual operational leader.

Well, I couldn't really expect you to understand the precise meaning of the Holy Grail when your main language is not English. So, I understand you didn't understand what Clickfool and I, being English, meant. Good luck in your future attempts to grasp English as a second language. Thanks for writing! Best regards!

what makes you think I'd qualify for the programme in question???!!!

what makes you think I'd qualify for the programme in question???!!!

"The whole strip might be one huge parking lot one of these days" Yes, with no cars either...no parking problem then:)

"We will be here for ever" Actually, that was quite funny...when I first read it I thought you were referring to the length of your post! "WE ARE (Jews) still here and we will be here to the end of the world" Whatever are you on about, e.m.?? You live in s.f.!! not Israel

There's actually a large school of thought here which holds that bin Laden is long ago dead. I certainly don't believe that was him in his latest starring epic video. He looked younger in it than he did on 9/11, and that's just against nature...

The late Sheihk Yassin was the spiritual leader of Hamas. The actual leader was Al Rantisi...also killed by Israel in the same manner. Extra-judicially.

Nothing racist or bigotted abut Misha's post - he was simply telling you, personally, what he thought of you. One on one. Take it personally - it was meant that way.

"death toll exacted by the crude short-range Palestinian Quassam seems to be a taboo, any casualties at all? None. But plenty on the other side. Several Palestinians dead each and every week...some of them civilians and children, by the IDF's own admission.

have you seen the effect on the childrens hospital because Israel has decided in its pea sized brain, that turning off electricity and refusing fuel supplies to run generators that keep these kids alive, is a just and fair way to punish 1.4 million people? Australian tv has shown the plight of these innocent kids, with no medication for pain, loss of limbs from missiles and bombs, and no hope left in their eyes. One day I hope that it will be the Palestinians hunting the war criminals of Israel to every end of the planet to pay the maximum price for these attrocites, against international law and the geneva convention. If Israel cannot abide by the principles of these laws then she has lost her right to exist.

You've asked me variations of this same question now three times on this thread and before in other threads. You know my answer, I did in fact post it again to another of your posts here. And my answer is not going to change.

E.M Firstly to hala and her distorted historical narrative.good for you begin from the beginning to the end of our history. Then in your second post pointing out the brain power and achievements that the Jews gave the world is worth reminding the ones who denigrate Israel and the Jews who should be greatful for all their scientific treasures they produced for the benefit of mankind. All you posts are very good and appropriate,and I say thank you for putting your point forward.I also like to thank Lebanese in France giving you encouregement. all well deserved and worthy to mention...

Wasn't Sheikh Yassin known as the spiritual leader of Hamas? If American military murdered an Iraqi leader like Yassin...blind, crippled, old...there'd be hell to pay.

Judith, you hardly ever express yourself here, and probably for a good reason. You don't seem to understand much beyond the action to be taken. How about considerations? In the past, I preferred that Israel negotiate and sign a deal with Abbas, and then even subdue the Palestinains by force and arrange for a referendum to legitimize it. We have made some progress since then. Hamas has moderated enough to agree to a referendum. To my mind, this should be the route to take. It is possible to do it the forceful way, but it will take hundreds of casualties to take Gaza NOW. (There are some new circumstances that two dimensional people who don't have any depth do not recognize.) It is doable, thogh, but much inferior way to bringing Hamas in. You look too thin, Judith. Better go eat something.

and your lot maria...the philosophy of the land thief and murderer?

Take a good look Ky. In the real world I mean. There is no way Israel will live in peace with any other race on the planet. Zionists think they are better than anyone else...fools. The chosen race blah blah blah....this religion which allows us, who are not even a race of people, to steal land, oppress another race to the same extent that they were, and live off usa blood money. I agree with the iranian pres...time for Israel to disapate into one peoples or learn how to swim!

and I have never insulted or abused or namecalled anyone here. I can write a post without doing so. You can use the name Palestine in any manner you want to, of course.

Michael Jacobs asks me exactly the same thing about thirty posts down. He's asked me before in other threads. My answer is always the same: America did steal the Indians land. America has recompensed the Indians as much as possible, and realises that of course it can never be enough. But two wrongs do not make a right. What America did in the 1500s does not make it okay for Israel to continue settlement expansion in the West Bank in 2007..which they are doing as we speak. What was done in the 1500s was bad enough but any civilized country is supposed to know better nowadays. Perhaps Israel does not. Regards

The longbow was used in England long before the Battle of Agincourt was fought in France. The longbow had been the English "weapon of choice" for many years previously. Unfortnately for the French on Agincourt day, they simply didns't believe that such a "primative weapon" could get the better of their hordes of mounted knights...which indeed it did.

My car was blocked in the parking lot of the Islamic Centre due to my own fault. The hospital I work at has permission to use the Islamic Centre's parking lot during the day when it it empty but not on Fridays and not evenings due to Muslims parking there for prayers. I forgot this rule and didn't move my car out of there before staying until 7pm for the Board Meeting so it was my own fault, not the Arabs, that my car got stuck in there. As it was my own fault, I can't describe to you the amount of backchat I'd have got if this happened in London with the Englishmen I grew up with!) Sorry I wasn't clearer on this. My fault.

So far Tossi, you have been a yeshiva student, somewhere in Israel, while at the same time magically serving in the IDF, then you just a student in the vacinity of Karkur. How nice. You were also Ben Gurion from Tsde Boker and Golem from Santa Monica, and now Tosefta from Tiveria. Oh the lies never stop a com'n. You now claim to work in an institution of learning. you wrote, "I never see such people; we throw such students out before they do some damage." those were the exact words of Joe the Janitor when I was in public school. Hell, if you are actually a teacher or a professor, you should be fired. You are a sick individual who cannot take any criticsm, and does all in his power to stifle debate. Come to think of it that must be why you have a tendency to prostrate yourself before the likes of Hamas, Nasrallah, Ahmanadinajad, or your Syrian handlers of course. ps. show a little class, Jeff has shown you more respect than a dog like you deserves.

Sometime an episode or a scene is all you need. And Shem Tov needed the episode on the civilizing of one who only knew the Law of the Jungle. If I want to deal with a case where somebody is assassinated by injecting poison into his ear (as Mossad attempted to do to Meshal), I might bring Hamlet as an example. It does not mean that this scene encapsulates all that Shakespeare wanted to express in Hamlet, but this is good enough for my need. Another saying which expresses such an idea is "Not everything that is in the sea is also in every drop of sea-water". I tried hard to transmit this trivial matter to you. Please try to guard it against memory loss. PLEASE! And if you have access to a respectable amount of brine, it will help you greatly.

"Israel will at best sign some deal with a weak Abbas who is known to be unable to carry out his part of the deal." -Tossi This is coming from the same fool who for years wrote propaganda on this forum urging Israelis to sign a deal with Abbas. Any reasonable person knows not to sign a contract with a party that cannot possibly perform. But Tossi kept on trying to sell his crap to the Jews. Well, I guess now Tossi (aka Ben Gurion) has switch his support to the Hamas, maybe they offered more $$ for his propaganda services...

Before I lay my head to rest, I have a question for all you geniuses out there. WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW KNOWN AS THE PALESTINIANS? Please I would like an answer. WHAT IS THE ARABIC NAME FOR THE AREA NOW CALLED PALESTINE-ISRAEL? Daily I read of occupation. Occupation of what? From 1948-67, the West Bank was Jordanian, and Gaza was Egyptian. They never heard of a Palestinan people or geographic entity. whatgives here. How do a "people" a "Nation" not have the minutest amount of creativity to come up with a name for themselves? My Arab friend, related to me that this was under the jurisdiction of Damascus, under Turkish occupation. That folks here usually related to each other as members of their Clan (hamoulah) or by their village name. Thus how do you occupy a people, without a name? BTW, Felastine, is a perversion of Palestine, due to the fact that the Pals cannot pronounce the letter 'P'. Awaiting all of your answers.

PETER-First you have to BE a human to fight like a MAN. Remember-Hamas was the FIRST to introduce the newest sport " high rise street diving" No, they will hide behind women, DRESS like women, send children off with suicide belts on. THAT IS their "m.o." is it not? These people do not ACT like humans. Humans -MAMMALS protect their young and their females. Not these people, ALL LIFe is "disposeable" . To a certain extent it HAS to take some humanity out of the IDF soldiers when they see 12 year olds shooting at them and trying yo kill them, and women rushing at them trying to blow themselves up. I'm sorry, but whatever side of the fence you're on-these people seem INTENT on destroying themselves.

How right you are KUTW and How right myself. Palestinians are stiky and a waste of time !

I bet you 50 shekels that Labhras isnt Irish - and probably isnt a man. And I think ballistic and labhras is the same person...

Tosefta is calling a poster bumb, and another a blockhead in his 614. "(Ami the Dummy #573; Jeff the Blockhead #602)" Where are the talkback rules, censor? Or does Tosefta deserve a blind eye for being leftist? While I post amd post, and you censor and censor me, somebody who brake the rules openly gets frequent poster VIP treatment? Call me your overseer !

They definitely do not have their people's best interest at heart.

Mark, a few days ago you mentioned that your name can be found amoungst former Texas Republicans holding minor jobs in the party. I searched Mark Lincoln, this is all I have to go by, and only came up with some used Lincoln Mark IV, I found this to be quite appropriate. could you please devulge a little more information. Sad there you were a Republican in the 60's, a Goldwater boy, how charming. did you have bushy sideburns and a sky blue suit to match? In your post you stated that the Pals have no where to go. Well buddy we are not the Americans in Viet Nam, this is being fought at home. something like fighting a war in Houston, get it. So we will just have to see what happens in the future. Is it not enough that we have to face the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah, and five Arab nations, why are you so interested in seeing the Iranians participating as well? As for Mindy from Meyerville, is this really your only connection to Jews buddy? Puppy Love nice.

Thank you for the friendly offer, but I am not sure we will be able to walk our pets together. Dumbite has a problem; he cannot recognize any evolutionary change, in houses or streets or empty lots. If a new house is built, Dumbite will still run into the courtyard and pee on the trees as if nothing has changed. Causes me much embarrassment and even trouble, which you should avoid. I have another idea, though. How about feeding our pets together? I can bring Dumbite along at the end of the day when UGY gets her supper, and I will show you a wonderful quality of my dog. Dumbite doesn`t care about the content of things, only about their external look. I will bring an empty box of dog chow and we will secretly fill it with the straw which is UGY`s food. We will then show Dumbite the straw coming out of the box, and he will be happy to eat it as if it is the best dog chow. You will see. When can we visit?

Sometime an episode or a scene is all you need. And Shem Tov needed the episode on the civilizing of one who only knew the Law of the Jungle. If I want to deal with a case where somebody is assassinated by injecting poison into his ear (as Mossad attempted to do to Meshal), I might bring Hamlet as an example. It does not mean that this scene encapsulates all that Shakespeare wanted to express in Hamlet, but this is good enough for my need. Another saying which expresses such an idea is "Not everything that is in the sea is also in every drop of sea-water". I tried hard to transmit this trivial matter to you. Please try to guard it against memory loss. PLEASE! And if you have access to a respectable amount of brine, it will help you greatly.

I believe that is about the same as the Serbian position which they used to justify their attempt to throw the current inhabitants out of Kosovo. Do you remember how the world reacted to that? What's the difference between the two cases?

Hey Smadar, getting late here, so I will end with this post. Some on this forum speak of a constitution and a Pal Unity Gov't. A constitution is not necessary. Canada only got one two decades ago. As for the Unity Gov't, there is very little to unify around. The war did not start with 67 and "occupation". The war does not stem from borders but from myths, humiliation and honor. As long as the jewish state exists, it will remind the Arabs of the world of their collective humiliation. We hosted some Arab friends in our Sukkha, a wonderful couple. He is a proud Israeli, quite successful and enlightened in his ways and views. She wears a headscarf and the reasons are interesting. We feel free to discuss the situation in depth, and yes humiliation and honor will keep Hamas and Fatah from getting together in the near future. The last coup and its related humiliations in the streets of Gaza have cut to the core of Pal unity. Hopes for a peaceful future.

ballistic has already been told Maher is a comedian. She insists he is a social commentator. Truly he is just a really bad comic. So is ballistic.

As I recall, that was your assessment of the Lebanese' fighting ability before the latest Israeli incursion. As I further recall, some of the grunts who had to actually go in disagreed with you.

That you call for fighting man to man shows how little you know. The whole idea is to kill as many of them as you can at the least cost to you.