Gov't: Criticism of papal silence on Holocaust 'unprecedented'

Father Pizzaballa spoke with honesty and clarity . His words need to be reported to those who share his own faith . And remind them of prayer of Pope John XXIII. He called it Act Of Reparation: ? We are conscious today that many centuries of blindness have cloaked our eyes so that we can no longer see the beauty of Thy chosen people, nor recognize in their faces the features of our privileged brethren. We realize that the mark of Cain stands on our foreheads. Across the centuries our Brother Able has lain in blood which we drew or shed tears we caused forgetting Thy love. Forgive us for the curse we falsely attached to their name as Jews. Forgive is for crucifying Thee a second time in their flesh. For we knew not what we did...?

H in 93:And then, of course, JPII who seemed to have a special love affair with the synagogue. H, Karl Wojtyla was very much befriended with Jews before he became pope. He knew more about Judaism, Israel and the Holocaust than you and your comrads together, You only talk from far away, knowing nothing out of practice. Karl Wojtyla was as a pope bound by the doctrines of his church but got to israel in the closest way possible. The institute the Vatican withheld him form going further but I am convinced he personally would have wanted that and 100% based on the Scriptures.

Or should I say Gospel of Hollingsworth. My oh my, what a lesson of humbleness Jesus would teach you if he would still be on earth. Be prepared for the world to come, for you will be accountable for all the hatred you have displayed towrads not only the Jews, but to Christians as well. Isabella admiring? She and Ferdinand were killers. Those who lay hands on the sword will due because of this. Remember this Hollingsworth.

Buy or rent the DVD AMEN and see for yourself what the Vatican new. Based on a true story, autobiographic.

I didn't know they spoke Hebrew in the Vatican. After the kippa and matsa now also Hebrew?

in the holocaust. You people really should start reading contemproary ww2 history written by Jews. Pius saved 800,000 Jews. See Pinchas Lapide. The Chief Rabbi of Rome converted and took Pius's birth name as his baptismal name. Better be careful about throwing rocks in glass houses friends.

The "Why?' is very simple: 1) The people of a covenant which has been abrogated and finally sealed by the destruction of her Temple in 70AD, can not be united in a common cause with the people of a New Covenant which remains in place. 2) Jews and Muslims alike are now invited, along with the gentiles of all nations, to be joined under that New Covenant to the One true Faith. There are no compromises, no Jewish/Christian coalitions. High ranking officials in the post-counciliar church may think that an entente between Jews and Christians can be achieved, and that the people of an ancient covenant can be blended together with the people of a a new one in a common cause. But they are wrong, and, I believe, history and the unfolding events prove it.

The church needs the Jews. They know Islam is out to get them also. It is better to join with the Jewish population. They are already feeling the hatred ..They know when they come for the Saturday people the knock on the door will be heard by the Sunday people

"I think relations between the Jews and the Vatican are finally heading in the right direction." Yes, if heading in the right direction means Judaizing the Vatican, you are absolutely right. One of the reasons, and probably the major reason, that the Jews hate Pius XII, is that he all but ignored their blandishments, and looked coldly upon the representatives of organized Jewry who tried to influence him. Whereas his immediate successor, John XXIII met with them at least 100 times. Unprecedented! And of course Paul VI captitulated totally, symbolized poignantly by his wearing of the Jewish rationale of judgment on a number of state occasions. And then, of course, JPII who seemed to have a special love affair with the synagogue.

Rabbi Dalin is a Conservative rabbi and an historian. I know that he defends Pius XII. He argues that Pius saved more Jews than Schindler or Wallenberg. I have not read all his arguments. Still Pius was no ordinary man. He was the head of the Holy Roman Church and had much power, even with the Nazis lurking in the background. Pius not once threatened Nazis with excommunication from the Church. I still say that Pius XII could have done much more. It is also a well known fact that the Vatican helped many Nazis escape post war Europe. How come high Vatican officials turned a blind eye?

Thanks. I'll have a look at the work you mentioned if ever I come across it. But I have to say that, like Cornwall's "Hitler's Pope", just looking at the title tells you that it is probably a work of sensationalism and bigotry rather than serious scholarship. What is your view of Rabbi Dalin's work?

Pius XII could have been more specific and more eloquent. One word from him and all the Roman Catholics of Europe ( especially Austria, Poland and Croatia ) perhaps would have been less enthusiastic and cooperative with the Nazis if they knew that the head of their church was against the persecution of the Jews. As it is, I am sure that the priests and nuns that risked their lives to save Jews did it as INDIVIDUALS and not as some coordinated effort coming from Rome. Today's Pope is like a breath of fresh air in the enclosed and stuffy corridors of the Vatican. He is smart in not shaking the Church too much but his sincere decision not to make Pius XII a saint is worth more than a thousand pages of Church notes praising the Silent Pope's efforts to save Jews during the Nazi regime. I think relations between the Jews and the Vatican are finally heading in the right direction.

I suggest you read Vicars of Christ: the Dark Side by Peter de Rosa. It's an eye opener for anybody that wants to know how the Church institutionalized antisemitism and made it an art. A long chapter deals with Pius XII. As for Pinchas Lapid, he is a rabbi that believes in the resurrection of Jesus. I don't have to add another word.

No nonsense, you ask where I get my 'stories' from. A Jewish researcher Pinchas Lapide put the number of Jews rescued by the Church at 860,000. For a more recent objective assessment, you might read Rabbi David Dalin's The Myth of Hitler's Pope. I hope this helps.

Terry...put the feet back on the ground, mate. The Jews in 2006 have nuclear weapons which is good. In 1939 they didn't. Iran will not be running any holocaust...although they may be receiving one very soon if they keep going this way.

I'm not sure if Pius XII could have done much more to save lives in WW2. He was dealing with Nazis remember, Adolf Hitler! not Angela Merkel. Can I ask all the Pius haters to make enquiries on google about how many Jews were protected at the Pope's villa outside Rome, CastelGandolfo? There were hundreds. Sorry. Pius should have been more outspoken, but he was not a Jew hater. The historical facts about CastelGandolfo during the war are there to be seen. Criticize Pius, no one is above criticism; but do so on the basis of FACTS, not on what you heard from savta or uncle morrie... The Shoah is an immense catastrophe for civilization as well as the Jews, doesn't that put some pressure on us to look for facts that tell the whole story, not just churn out propaganda...bits and pieces of truth swamped with half truths, misleading statements, and historical fictions.

Sorry, both Pius and Paul VI are no saints, they helped Nazis escape justice and the Vatican still refuses to account for Nazi funds at the Vatican Bank. The victims were Jews, Serbs, and Roma and they deserve better than some minor Vatican functionary making a critique. www.vaticanbankclaims.com

Good on Fr. Pizzabella for telling the truth. Only when the truth is told can groups start to get beyond their problems. Now all we need is for Israel to follow this lead and tell the truth about how they dealt with Palestinian civilians in 1947-48. Tell the truth about the Holocaust. Tell the truth about the Nakba.

It seems couldn't have even tried to research this stuff. But anyway, here it goes... No one who studies the Talmud with an open heart could possibly concur with the oft repeated statement that any human is lower than an animal. Anti-Semites like to pick an choose obscure phases and look for the most totured interpretation. It would be like saying "American Law makes it OK to intentionally kill another human being" based upon the fact that the law allows one to use deadly force as a last resort to protect oneself from a deadly attack. There are no historical estimates that put the number of Jews residing in Europe (on the eve of WWII) at less than 9 million. Independent studies generally have put the number of Jews killed by the Nazis at 5.6 to 7.4 million. As for a "grain of truth", in what the many Holocaust denires say, I would only point to the extensive evidence collected. This would include survivor testimonies, perpetraitors confessions, and miles of paper records.

The hundreds of thousand of Jews saved by the Church are all keeping silence because they can't talk. You see, they are all dead and buried or dead and burned or just plain dead. I don't know where you get your story from but Jews are very grateful to all of those that saved even one person and they remember. So if the hundreds of thousands of Jews are quiet, it's not because they are ungrateful, it's because of the silence of the Church and the man that led it.

The number of Jews that were to be exterminated by the Germans was 11 million to begin with. The number is very precise because it is given by the Germans. They had a conference in the Berlin suburb of Wansee in January 1942 and that is where the final solution to the Jewish problem was discussed, planned and set forth. The goal was to exterminate 11 million Jews (German figure). The Germans also kept a record of every Jew that was rounded up and deported. Remember that they took pride in their job and efficiency was important. And don't forget that every Jew that was packed into the trains had a one way ticket ( paid with properties, valuables and cash stolen from the victims.) Trains don't work for free and they demanded money for each person that used the trains, even for a one way trip to hell.

"In the early 1940s, the I.G. Farben Chemical Company employed a Polish salesman, (guess who?), who sold cyanide to the Nazis for use in Auschwitz. The salesman also worked as a chemist in the manufacture of the poison gas." This such a laughable whopper that it scarcely dignifies a reply, but I'll take the bait anyway: 1) John Paul was a cradle Catholic. He did not convert later. 2) He entered a Catholic seminary in 1942. (So, I guess, he must have been moonlighting as a "cyanide salesman," is that it? Thank you, Te, for introducing a little humor into my day. John Paul was a rotten pope, but a cyanide salesman---I don't think. LOL.

"The Pope should have spoken out because the Catholics were directly involved in this atrocity." 1) Some Catholics were undoubtedly involved. "(t)he Catholics" implies that 'all' or a majority of Catholics were involved. Even a few Jewish members of this particular discussion forum have put that notion to rest. 2) If we claim that 'the' Jews are killing Palestinian women and children, we imply that 'all' Jews are killing Palestinian women and children. Yet certainly 'some' Jews are killing them on a regular and ongoing basis. 3) You havent't defined the nature of "this atrocity." Therein lies the rub with many of us.

I think the criticism is past the statute of limitations. The jews should learn that their people is not the only race/nationality to suffer down thru history. And look at it from the point of view of the pope during the WWII holocaust. He knows for sure, or has a good idea that the Jews being relocated are not well or are being executed by the thousands by the Natzis...and what should he do. Well he was not a saint, and he was maybe a weak man inside and feared for the lives of many and his own life....so he did not speak out at the time because he thought himself powerless against the evil Natzis, and speaking out would make matters much worse.

To answer your question, I do not believe that a majority of European Catholics were engaged in the killing of millions of defenseless Jews. As a matter of fact, I consider that kind of statement mostly a reflection of the religious prejudice of the person making it. The fact was probably that most Catholics, like everyone else, focused on staying alive themselves. In Poland, a country often cited on this site, several million of them didn't make it. As to the pope's moral authority, check out how US Catholics responded to the pope's condemnation of the death penalty. The overwhelming responsse was "go away and mind your own business".

1: The talmud teaches that all life is sacred. It doesnt separate the different religions or races. Respect must me given to all those that deserve respect. 2: The numbers are real.Poland alone had upwards of 3 million Jews. 3: The Church did help some Jews during the war. but it was not done by decree. Kind acts were performed by humane individuals. People who realised a great wrong was being committed. The Catholic Church only saw the error in her ways after the 1960's. Even then it took the very great John Paul 2 to drill his followers into the realisation that the churches hands had been soiled by 2 millenia of lies and hatred towards the very people your god was borne from. The early leaders of the Roman church had to find someone to blame for the crusifiction. Who better to blame than the people who refused to accept the new paradigm ?

For Larry (61) Not just the thousands you wished for, but hundreds of thousands of Jews were rescued by the actions of the Catholic Church in WW2. What is amazing is how very few are prepared to go against the tide and stand up to say they owe their lives to the the church of which Pius was the wartime leader.

Jews have little enough influence over their own fate and there you go on about what Jews could or should have done to prevent all the ills of this world. Just get over yourself and stop believing the propaganda that the Jews rule the world. You want to compare a Rabbi to the Pope? When the Pope speaks, a billion people listen, when a Rabbi speaks, assuming that all the Jews listen (a big assumption) there are what, 14 million listening? See the difference in influence and reach? Besides, the Jews didn't murder Armenians and Rwandas, but Catholic Germans, Austrians, Croats, lithuanians murdered Jews, while the Poles, Hungarians, French and the sorry rest, if not actually killing themselves, (although the Poles actually committed murder themselves) assisted in the mass murder. The Pope should have spoken out because the Catholics were directly involved in this atrocity.

"I`m sure in that period he (Pius XII) bought into the Jewish-communist conspiracies of that time." Heck, sir, many of us buy into it today. I buy into it in spades. Pius XII made a very positive impact upon some Jews. In fact, the Jewish mayor of Rome converted to Catholicism after witnessing first hand this great Pope's teatment of the Jews. And, if I'm not mistaken, the chief rabbi of Rome, (or some rabbi way up there) converted to the Faith as well.

Moniroth You Bell wrote: "The Vatican, has shame RC across the whole, and I say it as a RC." As an RC, I say to you - IT'S A SICK BIRD THAT SOILS ITS OWN NEST. Stop buying into the anti-Catholic propoganda, just to be so PC, and discover the truth!

I'm just curious, but I never doubted the holocaust happened. It's just that with so many deniers of such events, could it be that there is a grain of truth in what they say? I mean, in the numbers. Some say that there weren't even 6,000,000 Jews in the whole of Europe before the holocaust. Just curious? V

Is it true that the Talmud teaches that all Gentiles are less than animals, and that it's never a sin to behave badly towards us? Speaking as a Roman Catholic. V

To a Jew the German campaign against the Jews may seem the worst holocaust in the history of man. I suspect, however, that you would have a hard time convincing an Armenian or Ukrainian or Cambodian or Tsusi or Chechen or Gypsy or any of the other groups which had similar trauma that this is so.

If Judaism had a religious head like Catholicism has in the Pope, would we have acted differently? Do we condemn Turkey for its massacre of the Armenians? Did we send the IDF to Rwanda to stop the massacre of Tutsis by Hutus? No. We value Turkey too much as a moderate Muslim country to ruffle their feathers and we wouldn't send our soldiers out to fight for one tribe of people killing another.

After the Nazis annexed Bohemia and Moravia, Slovakia was given its independance, as a Nazi ally, under the leadership of the RC priest, Father Tiso. Father Tiso's government presided over the deportation and gassing of 80,000 Slovakian Jews. The Tiso government was not merely a passive partner. They helped the Nazis solve the problem of payment for the railway fees/costs that arose from the one-way shipment of so many Jews. They made the Jews pay for their transporation. This innovation was adopted all over Nazi occupied Europe. Accion Francaise was a French Catholic-nationalist political group, that has its roots in the anti-Dreyfusards of 1900. It was comprised of clergy and laity. They came to power under Petain/Vichy. The defeat of France was the fault of the Jews, for France to rise again it must be cleansed, they were the ones to do the job. They were all hanged as traitors/criminals after the war.

Church?s relationship to Jews, Holocaust included, has always involved catholic doctrinal issues, right from the beginning of Christianity. . Vatican still cannot accept Israel precisely for the doctrinal reasons (despite current official recognition) all having absolutely nothing to do with the Palestinian Arabs and everything with the doctrine. Similarly, while papal silence during WWII could be regarded partly as a pragmatic caution or cowardliness, there is a far more compelling argument that of the Church?s fond wish for Jews to disappear into the annals of history, allowing the Church to usurp their place (the New Israel bit.) As to moral directives, do you really believe that there is no overwhelming moral component where an overwhelming numbers of Europe's Catholics were engaged in one form or another in a wholesale murder of millions of defenseless Jews? The last I heard, murder was still a major sin, far outweighing the condom use.

The following is a quote from pages 89-90 of "Behold A Pale Horse" by Milton William Cooper: "In the early 1940s, the I.G. Farben Chemical Company employed a Polish salesman who sold cyanide to the Nazis for use in Auschwitz. The salesman also worked as a chemist in the manufacture of the poison gas. This same cyanide gas along with Zyklon B and malathion was used to exterminate millions of Jews...Their bodies were then burned to ashes in the ovens. After the war the salesman, fearing for his life, joined the Catholic Church and was ordained a priest in 1946...The salesman was ordained Poland's youngest bishop in 1958. After a 30-day reign his predecessor was assassinated and our ex-cyanide gas salesman assumed the papacy as Pope John Paul II."

Everyone criticizes this pope, but not many, it seems, actually read history. People say he did nothing. Obviously the Chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII thought he did a lot, since he converted to Catholicism after the war, and took the pope's name for his baptism. I met someone in LA whose family was saved by the pope's direct intervention by allowing nuns to hide his family in a convent. When the Dutch Catholic bishops protested the German treatment of Jews, the Nazis responded by stepping up arrests and deportations to concentration camps in the Netherlands. What would have happened if the Vatican spoke out publicly?

I think that sitting in your comfortable armchair in Poland it is very easy for you to be judgmental with something that really doesnt even concern you. The worst Holocaust in the history of man happened in your country POLAND. THE DEATH CAMPS - Chelm, Sobibor, Madjanek, Treblinka, Auschwitz, Birkenau and hundreds of concentration camps were situated in Poland - YOUR COUNTRY. Poland is a land covered in blood. And now you are JUDENFREI yet you profit on the murder and anhilation of the Jewish people by opening "Jewish" shops, restaurants in Krakow's "Jewish" quarter but one thing is wrong....there are no more Jews left. All two million, one hundred thousand murdered in your land. And you have the damn audasity use the word genocide. Go away and put your jack boots on.

Convereted in Australia by a Protestant minister in Kings Cross Sydney. The local area was a well known hang out for drug addicts,the disturbed and the vulnerable lonely.

My mother was hidden in her native France by nuns during World War II. These nuns risked their lives to save Jewish girls, and I am not certain whether or not this was sanctioned by the Vatican, or just undertaken by the convent unilaterally. Had the Pope taken a direct, active role, then many many thousands of people could have been saved.

Well it is a well known fact that the Pope did diddly squat with regard to Hitlers murdering Jews. Oh the Pope, who supposedly has some divine connection to GOD, allowed the Chosen people to be annihilated and stood by and did nothing. Zero Zip Zilch. I think the thought of glorifying this man for silence, when his successors trample on Israel or condemn it on every occasion, is disgusting. He should be forever remembered as a disgusting divine religious leader that was complicit by his silence.

to hell together with his catholic mentors. I hope Israel has learn the lesson to be self responsible and care less about outside world anti-Zionists /Jew haters/.

You can take it any which way you like...After all the Israeli government is as murderous as that of Sudan

being his silent (in best cases) alliance, but in many other cases his supporter in annihilation of Jewish people. In Poland (the most catholic country on the continent) and in other European countries Catholic Church was cooperating big time with germans in implementation of their ^^final solution^^. Hey, here is nothing new. And never will be.

Very misleading as you phrase it. Catholics believe the pope infallible only when he makes a formal declaration about a matter of faith or morals. This has little formal meaning since such pronouncements are made perhps once every hundred years. Aside from that, he is believed to be just as fallible as everyone else.

Cardinal Pacelli (later Pope Pius II) was the Catholic Nuncio to Berlin in the `30's. All reports showed him to have a warm and cordial relation with Hitler, creating a new concordat with Nazi Germany and the German Catholic Church. Fast forward to WWII. He was obsessed with `satanic' communism'. I'm sure in that period he bought into the Jewish-communist conspiracies of that time. He also was afraid that the Vatican could be overrun and ruined by the Nazi occupation of Rome At best he played it cool, at worst he was a handmaiden to the holocaust. Nothing good came from his era. Perhaps now that Israel and the West have a common enemy,islamic fascism, relations should improve between the Catholic Church and the Jews (although this is not the case in Israel proper). It won't be because of shame or regret or moral bereavement, but just the playing out of old fashion power politics that govern the world

"The proof you ask for is within the Vatican`s vaults" Which means that it has not been revealed to the eyes of public; which means that, to date, you can produce no documentation. It would appear that you have sources to which most of us are not privy. Somebody in the know must have informed you that this documentation is in Vatican vaults. Please, reveal your source(s). This could be big.

http://publish.indymedia.org/en/2006/04/838136.shtnl

This buffonish demand that other religious leaders live up to their responsibilities while Jewish religious leaders twiddle their thumbs and avoid their moral responsibilities is astonshing and naive. Most are either complicitly or explicitly involved in abandoning common and obvious values and lack the courage to speak out. They can't escape responsibility for themselves and the dehumanization they've been a party to.

Having read my history books, I cannot help but chafe at the use of that phrase. As to the participation of the Jewish leadership in the human rights effort, the number is hardly few, unless you refer solely to those issues that appeal to the extreme left-wing agenda. And, notwithstanding what I might think of it, Jews are disproportionately represented in all of those issues, leadership positions or not. I can't say that I can clearly decipher where you are coming from, but, with respect to the Catholic Church, it will take way more than 25 years to cleanse itself as pertains to the Jewish people, Judaism and Israel.

Since we cannot ascribe stupidity as the reason for your equation of Israel's policies with Nazi genocide (while you ignore the Palestinian support for the "real" genocide against Jews) we must assume deliberate and self-willed antipathy to Israel and to Jews. That would make you, Tim, the David Irving of Canada. I do, by the way, qualify for Mensa, although I don't need all the mind-bursting power of my acute IQ to know exactly where your words are coming from, young man. Good for you.

Tim: the Jewish civilian population of Europe did not support terrorist actions against the Nazi government or its citizens--the Palestinian national leadership, on the other hand assisted the Nazi leadership in murdering Jewish and non-Jewish civilians in Yugoslavia. I was unaware that there was a genocide ongoing against the Palestinian people or that they had forsworn arms or use of arms against civilians. I was also unware that anyone seriously took the Office of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel as being a religious office. I thought everyone assumed it was a patronage job for relative non-entities--sort of like being Chief Postal Inspector, but with better hours. Your faith is touching.

It is very important that a high-ranking catholic clergyman made such a statement as after Pessach Jews do celebrate the memorials of various historic events that led to extermination, mass killings or war victims. Moreover, this clergyman is also in charge of the Catholic properties, also in the State of Israel and his words sound comforting. Jesus would not have been deported during WWII. He was a Jew who knew by the Megillat Esther that there was, readily in the pagan world, a will to exterminate those who confess the One God. But the Shoah happened in the core of the Christian European area.It has been mainly committed by Christians who are no more "heathens" (Rashi's commentary). Nothing that was known to Jesus.But in the present context of the churches and their attitude towards Israel, the declaration of this priest is a courageous act that should also be reflected by the other denominations.

ok luca, you're right: people are churches. But all I know is that on october 16, 1943 about one thousand people were kidnapped by the nazis in rome. The nazis jailed them 5 days before sending them to Auschwitz because they were scared of a popular reaction to their brutal action. After all, they brought away a lot of people for no reason. Nothing happened. Maybe if Pope Pacelli aka Pius XII would have a chat with German Commander in Chief... But nothing of the sort happened. Only few of the prisoners came back from Poland. Their only fault was to be Jews.

That's a pretty comical line of reasoning - and I'm being polite because it's clear that you are not a candidate for Mensa. But, what you do demonstrate, is that the desire for fraudulent history is not limited to neo-nazi's. But the goal is the same. And, might I add, the crimes you are trying to whitwash are strikingly similar.

You forgot the Calvinists. The baptists or their ancestors were there, in Holland and in a way, in this country they were the only bearers of european honor. For the holy see, better late than never

I would appreciate some verification of your statement that the Catholic church has a blood purity policy of excluding people from its senior hierarchy. I ask this because the cardinal archbishop of Paris (the highest ranking Catholic clergyman in France) was born a Jew and had a bar mitzvah.

Nonsense! The popes and the higher clergy have always protected the Jews. You can make a case that, from time to time, an enraged Catholic laity, brought to penury through Jewish usury and exploitation, went after the Jews. But get off this stuff about Pius XII. He helped thousands of Jews, as did many of his predecessors. Go after Queen Isabella, if you like. This Catholic sovereign, whom I much admire, drove out of Spain 200,000 Jews in 1492. Now she may be fair game. But Hitler? Please! Hardly one who can be accused of leaving a Catholic legacy.

"Sainthood in the Catholic Church seems to be connected with how much money you give or generate for the church. " I don't know enough about the process to comment, guess I really couldn't care less. It just tells me how much the Catholic Chruch wants to offend us. Which hasn't really changed one iota. I don't want the wealth, but they should return the artifacts, especially the huge collection of Judica to Israel that has been stolen over the centuries and given to the church.

You are being offered an honorary citizenship in Iran. Ahmanacrap thinks you are the second coming.

You wrote: The Bible is written by man, and contains many falsehoods. Unless we show our rational thinking by expunging such text from this document, nothing will change. You have the makings of an intellectual idiot, seemingly full of wisdom yet full of every type of corruption. It is your type of "so-called" rational thinking that has the world in a tail spin now. The Bible has no falsehoods and is the divine inspiration of God. I pray God will forgive you and not expunge you into hell because of the vail that is over your eyes that prevents you from seeing the truth. I choose to believe God and call every man a liar.

The Vatican, has shame RC across the whole, and I say it as a RC.

To understand the full scope of how the Christians developed anti-Judaism and needed it for their own theological reasons, read James Carroll's CONSTANTINE'S SWORD. A ' must read' for all religions.

The proof you ask for is within the Vatican's vaults. There were escapees from almost all concentration camps and the information about the gas chambers, truck -chambers, mass shootings; ghetto mass starvation had been transmitted to the outside world, Vatican included, by numerous sources. The issue of sanctifying Pius XII, just like that of Isabella of Spain, is more pertinent to Catholics than to the Jews. After all, neither Jews nor Protestants have ever held Vatican in high regard with respect to morality and it is only important to the Catholics who want to prove high moral standing of Catholicism, despite its many failings. Denial of responsibility for silence during the Holocaust stands right there with the denial of the Holocaust itself and it reflects poorly on the denier alone.

What does it matter what they say about us? All we need to know is that the Catholic Church is and has always been the mortal enemy of the Jewish people. I grew up in England with many Catholic children as neighbours. It was a daily occurance to be asked why I killed Yoshki. When I was older the standard reply was, "It wasn't me, it was my Uncle Hymie in Manchester." Ha ha. But it wasn't so funny when I came home with a bloody nose or a black eye, but not to worry, I gave better than I got. These kids were fed poison from birth by their "priests" and families and it was only 20 years ago. 2000 years of torture, burning and massacres culminating in that most Catholic of events, the Holocaust. Let them say what they want, but first of all sort out their own house. Pink frocks with frilly lace and pink yarmulkas and thousands of cases of homosexual child abuse? Hmm.

You too did not see the word few. Jewish leaders are not invariably vocal on human rights issues, only some of them are. My true feelings are depression at the amount of blinkered generalisation one sees around. And as for the Judenfrage (Jewish question), that, if you read your history books, is what the polemic on whether Jews were a race, a nationality or a religion was called until the middle of the 20th century (see links below). http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me01/me01_347.htm http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenfrage I thought the context warranted its use.

Yes, there have been a number of Jews to speak out about human rights abuses, just as there have been a number of Christians and Moslems who speak out. But - and this is a sad fact - they are a minority because when times are brutal in particular, speaking out takes enormous courage. I said few Jewish religious leaders speak out, not none, as you will see if you re-read my previous post. As far as persecution is concerned, under a totalitarian regime any dissident of whatever race or creed is at risk.

I take it you are refering to the Sudanese?

Thats the point the church is spinning its message so that when Pius gets his sainthood, it will be he personally stood in front of the transports and stopped them. (Don't mean to offend but Pius did sweet FA and we all know it) Sainthood in the Catholic Church seems to be connected with how much money you give or generate for the church. They will never give up their wealth, because wealth is power and power over the poor of South America generates extra income. Hence the refusal of allowing these people from using contraception. Contraception limits the number of members of the church and hence its income. Give him his due the current pope the Artillery gunner in Hitler's army has commented on Bin Laden and his ilk can't remember what he said though (not that interested really). Although I do beleive Darfur was mentioned yesterday, as was the use of condoms.

Jewish organizations are disappointed that the beatification process still goes forward for Pius XII. The centerpiece of exagerated Holocaust mythology are the 'gas chambers.' I contend that Pius XII knew nothing about any alleged gas chambers, and that the stories surrounding them were not fully developed until after the War. Neither the Vatican nor the International Red Cross, (who would have known) knew anything about the alleged 'gas chambers.'If someone can produce documentation that either the IRC or the Vatican had knowledge of gas chambers, please lead us to it.

You people never quit with your balderdash about Pius XII. Perhaps you haven't been following the news, people don't believe this anymore... it's all been disproved... You're wasting your time with this stuff. Steve Sanborn

The real immediate threat is less from the perpetrators of yestardays Holocaust, than from the really crazy freaks that make up GW Bush's base, who long for our Lord & Saviour ride to glory on a mushroom cloud & Rapture them up to heaven (smiting the rest of us - or it wouldn't be half as much fun). Note REVELATIONS 7:4 (New Testament), clearly states that the global Jewish population must be reduced from 30 million to 144,000 or the Magik won't work. Half of all USA freaks, sorry citizens, believe this lethal drivel. Come the crash of the petrodollar expect this frenzy to rise exponentially...

The Pope is considered by Catholics to be God's representative on Earth, and to be infallible. He is supposed to be walking in the footsteps of St. Peter, who had died for his faith. With such a lofty position goes responsibility.

...for the latest comment by Haman II (you know, that nut-job the Iranians chose to guide them along Allah's chosen path), and the other deniers, saying that no criticism is called for because the Holocaust never happened.

"Protestant" is a catch-all term, describing no unified theoretical position. Even there, it fails. Are Mormons "Protestant" or Christian Scientists? The on-the-ground established state churches of Europe, during the Holocaust, can be fairly critiqued for their conduct. These are: Roman Catholic, various Eastern Orthodox Catholics, and Lutherans. One might arguably include the Anglicans and Presbyterians of Britain, and the Sunni Muslims of Bosnia and North Africa, in this critique. They were all there, and all claim (ed) moral leadership positions in their societies. Baptists were not there. Methodists were not there. Mormons, Christian Scientists, Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto, Yoruba, Voudouin, Rastafarians, Druids, ...not there.

"With regard to the Jewish question..."? Bad choice of phraseology. As pertains to Jewish leaders, they are invariably at the forefront of human rights issues, or do your true feelings blind you to their presence?

He who comes to kill you, kill them first. We are merely trying to survive, lest our enemies "wipe us off the face of the earth". Our Rabbis need not apologize for anything when it comes to the self-preservation of the Jewish people. Tough, Tim.

With Iranian fanatic threatening a second Holocaust and the Europeans apparently acquiescing to this, just like they did the last time, does this mean that now Vatican is determined to take a moral stand and defend Israel and the Jews against the evil? I hope so. Let?s wait and see. One thing is for certain , Vatican will not survive another moral failure ? not with the barbarians at their door.

Little Timmy. Thank you for playing the role of "the uninformed" in this conversation. Had you spent time reading more then the ISM web site, you'de realize the issues are 100% opposite. Here - Ill help you. 1) the church has been a persecuter of jews for 1200+ years thats why thier statements on Nazi Germany is relavant. 2) The church in ww2 kept quiet because untill 66 and the Nostra Atete - the churches position on Jews was they they were Christ killers and deserved it. 3) the Jews have never commited atrocities on the Pals. The Pals live on stolen land - they are remnants of the Turkish empire and have no business in Israel. 4) Whats happening to the Pals? they elected Hamas - thats thier TRUE self. 5) the church has always feigned concern over the Holocaust but never admited it fanned the flames. Thanx for playing :)

Sure a Pope is a person... People can make mistakes. We are all humans. Jews, Christians and Islam included. We must all realize our mistake either by logic or emotion and come to terms with the honest way of dealing with man. there have been a number of Jews to speak out against racism over the past century. I guess your eyes have been blinded. Weisel, There is a Prominent NY rabbi also that appears on T.V. that speaks out against racism and several that I know in my city. Its out there just look for it. One reason why Jews of the past could not speak out agains racism was because of fear of persecution. That fear is gone today. MOst prominent was Beuber, Heschel, Fackenheim Part of the Bund leadership of Poland also who wanted a secular state. People are out there trying to solve this problem. However not many people are listening.

He and his followers have no problems seeing it all in black and white.

I was hidden by a catholic farmer for 20 months. The farmer used to come home from church and told us(we were 3 jews hiding on the attic)that the priest in his sermon said that they should not denounce the hiding jews to the police, but they should not be helping them or give food,because the jews gilled christ.the priests name was BOMBA.

Naim S. Mahlab. You are right. The Modern anti-semitism was created out of the Medieval stance of the church. Where a Jew must convert or pay the ultimate price. This decree spawned a number of pogroms, crusades and the Holocaust against the Jew all in the name of persecution and Christ. However some would argue that Hitler wasnt a Catholic. THe lack of movement by the Church during world war II shows that the Church's "Jewish theory " To be alive and well.

Papal silence is understandable because the Nazis were Roman Catholics. The Bible is Holy and Righteous penned by inspired Holy Men of God. Those who say it contains falsehoods evidently have not read the Bible. I would urge you to read it before making such accusation. It was the Papal Roman Church of the Dark Ages that invented and spawned antisemitism that culminated in the Holocaust in WWII. It was the same church that persecuted the Albigensian and Waldensian Christians in Europe during the Dark Ages; that persecuted the Jews during the Inquisitions; that persecuted the Protestant Christians during the Reformation in Europe; and tampered with God's Ten Commandments by changing God's Seventh Day Sabbath Rest to the first day of the week. By doing so, they were playing God in Planet Earth. This contradicts Scriptures. This is not surprising as Daniel and Revelation had prophesied about these events.

not a deity, and human courage is the exception not the rule. Furthermore, few Jewish religious leaders speak out, or have ever spoken out, on human rights issues and we are all familiar with the failings of certain Judenrat members in those terrible times. The fact is that certain courageous Catholic priests, nuns and individuals cared for and protected Jewish children in occupied Europe in spite of their pope and in spite of the mortal danger in which they placed themselves. Let us be thankful that with regard the Jewish question the Roman Catholic church has come a long way in the past quarter-century.

Can't say that I disagree with a single word that you wrote. My only question is why would they ever consider a person with such a clear lack of morals a 'saint' It's not like they really need another, they seem to have thousands already. Maybe they should try returning some of the stolen property that they have held for centuries. Or start speaking up about the Islamic-Fascism spreading around the world. Opposing a wide variety of people from the Catholics in South-East Asia, to Hindus of Kasmer, Christians and Jews of the Middle-East, Copts in Egypt to the Berbers of Morocco. Nah that too will never happen either.

Taking for granted that a message of firm protest from Pius XII would have represented a strong barrier against the growing nazi-fascist tide and the oncoming holocaust, long before this could possibly happen, I would like to point out instead on those people who concretely helped jewish people during those dramatic times. pius was a "prince of the church" type and it could be difficult to expect from him something better than what he did. We had to wait until John Paul II to have words of sorrow for the attitude of the church towards jews believers. In the holy texts in general you can read whatever you will. It is not a matter of expurging what could be interpreted as hate for a race (in that case we should erase a good part of Pentateuch)but a need to teach correct readings of the holy texts. The message of jesus is to love one anothere, there is this same message in many Prophets (Geremy, for instance) and in the same Pentateuch (or Torah). Why do we insist in looking for hate?

When are they going to live up to their moral responsiblities and speak out against what is happening to Palestinians in the name of their religion? Are they even capable of acting like religious leaders anymore? Or is making rulings on dietary customs the limit of their ability?

At least the Catholic Church is doing something to acknowledge its past behaviour. Nowadays it's left-wing Protestants who are in the vanguard of antisemitic activity with their anti-Israel hate talk, boycotts, lies, alliances with Palestinian terrorists etc. Obvious examples are the Church of England (remember the Archbishop of Canterbury's embrace of Yassir Arafat, the man responsible for the murder of more Jews since the Holocaust than any other individual), many American Protestant churches, the World Council of Churches, Christian Aid. I regard these as the Christian Nazi-Left. I exempt, of course, the evangelical Protestants who support Israel.

We recently saw the anglican church, with the same underlying logic as this declaration's, disinvest from any israeli related business. If the Catholic Church says that it was a mistake not to take a courageous stand in the name of the Catholic spirit for WWII, they may also consider that the arabs-from-the-territories' issue, although way way less dramatic, could be an occasion to take such a stand. I think we should quit asking for apologies and recognition for the Holocaust now. We have commemoration days in most Western countries, museums, official declarations and so on. Let's not ask for more lest we wear people out with further claims.

To little to late me thinks. To act against the Holocaust was a moral duty. The Catholic churches silence makes it complicit in mass murder. That said if they acknowledge past mistakes is there a saying "You cannot visit the sins of the fathers on the children". Even so Pius must forever be condemned for his silence. He was not acting as god's representative on Earth (what Catholics think the Pope is) The Catholic Church may be engaged in political spinning because there is a move to make Pius a saint.

...start appreciating, although it may take eons to transform anything significant, it's not too bad. I won't complain.

...start appreciating, although it may take eons to transform anything significant, it's not too bad. I won't complain.

It is absurd to expect the Church to act forcefully to propect Jews during the Nazi era since The Church's doctrine spawned the virus of anti-semitism. The Nazi policy of condemning all people who had 'Jewish blood' going back four generation was taken from the Church's own policy that used the same criteria to establish the 'blood purity'of a candidate for a senior position in the Catholic hierarchy. The Church may be trying to make amends now, but the Gospel texts that contain diatribes against Jews are still Holy Writ. The Bible is written by man, and contains many falsehoods. Unless we show our rational thinking by expunging such text from this document, nothing will change.

It is absurd to expect the Church to act forcefully to propect Jews during the Nazi era since The Church's doctrine spawned the virus of anti-semitism. The Nazi policy of condemning all people who had 'Jewish blood' going back four generation was taken from the Church's own policy that used the same criteria to establish the 'blood purity'of a candidate for a senior position in the Catholic hierarchy. The Church may be trying to make amends now, but the Gospel texts that contain diatribes against Jews are still Holy Writ. The Bible is written by man, and contains many falsehoods. Unless we show our rational thinking by expunging such text from this document, nothing will change.

The Papacy and church leaders would have been concerned for the Church, if they criticised Hitler (for the same reason the Munich appeasement occured and many including some in the Church wanted an attack on "athiest/secular" Soviet Russia). And the Nazi regime was "an" outcome of earlier European history, of which the Church had been a part. Much of war involves the "de-humanising of some enemy". Yet the Church of the Crusades had never condemned war. Should the Catholics been better able to reflect the Christian gospel than they did. Obviously. They were however, poorly led by more than by just one Pope or Bishop. But then no one in the WASP run USA, wanting to challenge Hilter, saw defence of the Jews as the way to win suppport for this.

I wonder how many more million murdered Jews it will take for the Pope to actually act? Who cares what they say anyway?

The Holocaust is a problem of humanity in general. Any denial or silence over it is compliance with it. May the victims rest in peace and may the powers who are seeking a new Holocaust against other peoples be stopped before it is too late.

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