Goldstone co-author: Hamas fired 'something like two' rockets before Gaza war

The interview quote. But feel free to rely on a report about a report about an interview as a justification for your irish jokes. DT- my first sentence is that Israel, like every other country, has a right to defend itself. However, it should be borne in mind that the number of rockets that had been fired into Israel in the month preceding their operations was something like two. ... . Two had been fired from Gaza, but they are likely to have been fired by dissident groups. HC ? For how long had there been a ceasefire? DT - From June ... To be honest, Israel might have had a very good reason to refuse an extension of the ceasefire because we all know, in the counter-insurgency world, that ceasefires are opportunities for insurgents to re-arm and re-equip but unfortunately they have never offered that as an explanation, but it is possible...

Desmond is absolutely correct, after ten pints of whisky all rockets look the same...

For once, I would like to see if any of you can find it possible to say anything positive about Israel. I suspect that I will be waiting forever, so I won't hold my breath.

limitions as the "war crimes", and political assasinations the US government has carried out in our contemporary history needs to be brought to the light of day; and what is your IQ -70?

"According to the New York University School of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences, Middle East Jewish men and Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian men have the same genetic signature, different from any other non-Jews in the world" What about European Jews? Did you forget about the genetic studies which link them to the region? And what about all the Arabs who immigrated into the region? You call them Palestinians, but are they magically converted into Jebusite descendants to suit your argument? "The British anthropologist Sir James Frazer wrote in his book " When, in 1920? Before the waves of Arab immigration? Before genetic sciences? It was a THEORY, clown.

Reginald must have been taught at the same school of ignorance as Natallie or is it just a problem of Los Angeles that these "people" come from there?

where are the Natallies( no46) of the world when the US army drops a bomb on innocent civilials in Afganisthan and kills 12: oops sorry, or if it's not Israel it doesnt count. of course it doesnt matter if these people havn't opened fire on American troops, just hasppened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. well Natallie and all the others like you ,it just shows how much you really care about innocents , and how much you just love to bash Israel: Antisemitism, I wonder........

"The Israeli people want the world sympathy when it comes to the Holocaust, but do the same thing to the people in Gaza that the Nazis did to the Jews in the concentration camps." On one hand, Jews weren't attacking Germans. On the other hand, Israel isn't exterminating the Palestinians. Here's a hand for making up stupid equivalencies.

The Israeli people want the world sympathy when it comes to the Holocaust, but do the same thing to the people in Gaza that the Nazis did to the Jews in the concentration camps. They are such hypocrites. People around the world see and know the truth and they will hold Israel accountable.

Of course the Jebusites disappeared. Thru the centuries the land also at one time belonged to Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Byzantine, Arab, Hellenic, European, Mamluk, Roman and Ottoman. During that time the Judeans, Samarians, Levites, the Ark of the Covenant, Hyksos, the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel, Moab, Ammon,Edom and hundreds of other people disappeared as entities. But their descendants still survive: the Jews and the Palestinians. According to the New York University School of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences, Middle East Jewish men and Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian men have the same genetic signature, different from any other non-Jews in the world. Independently, The British anthropologist Sir James Frazer wrote in his book The Golden Bough: "The Arabic-speaking peasants of Palestine are the progeny of the tribes which settled in the country before the Israelite invasion. They are still adhering to the land. They never left it and were never uprooted from it."

After revising the data and understanding what the guy actually said. It's so easy to dishonor such a report with stupid things like this.

If the Jebusites continued to exist in the first few centuries AD, why don't you name some of them? If you want to be honest with yourself, you would admit that they disappeared 1000 years before.

There was a six-month "Tahadiya" (translated variously as "truce" "ceasefire" or "lull"), that began 17 June 2008. Rockets per month prior to the lull averaged 187. After the Tahadiya: July rockets: 1 August rockets: 8 Sept. Rockets: 1 Oct. Rockets: 1 [Israel launches raid on Gaza Nov. 7, kills six] Nov. Rockets: 125 Dec. rockets: 46 Cast Lead began Dec. 28, 2008 http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf This is a right-wing website maintained by ex-IDF and intelligence officers that takes its data exclusively from the IDF. If Travers was talking about the month prior to when the cease fire was broken, that's October 2008 -- 1 rocket. He's right on the facts.

"If you knew that, you would not ask if there were Palestinian Arabs in 66 CE, and you would know that the reference was used to prove there was no break in the evolution of Jebusites to modern Palestinians." Yeah. The area was just crawling with Jebusites (who disappeared 1000 years earlier). What a fool.

You are not without knowledge of the ME and its history, but that knowledge is spotty. It's as if you were self taught: no one to teach you critical analysis. You read #337. So you know finer minds than yours determined the Jebusites are the forebears of Palestinians, not fortune cookies. If you knew that, you would not ask if there were Palestinian Arabs in 66 CE, and you would know that the reference was used to prove there was no break in the evolution of Jebusites to modern Palestinians. They were not evicted. You would know that the words Jews and Arabs were unknown then. The bible does not mention Palestinians, the word Palestinians was used to illustrate the heritage of the Palestinians. The bible says the Jebusites built Jerusalem. But what you are is an intellectually vacuous bully. Just in this blog cite, you accuse others of being: a dumdum loon clod dunce idiot dummy imbecile delusional ignorant fool dopey oaf fruit loop simpleton and slob. Who do you think you are?

SDHD: "You mean, the letter which stated that the PLO charter would be modified, yet, it wasn`t?" SDHD's weasel-word for the day: "modified". He uses that word because he desperately wants it to mean "rewritten", but he dimly suspects that this might not prove to be the case. Mr. Dimwit is indeed well advised to use his weasel-word, because that letter from Arafat never stated that the Covenant would be rewritten. Arafat said that the articles of the Covenant that were inconsistent with his letter were now "inoperative and no longer valid" and that, as a consequence, the "necessary changes" would be made. They were: those article were all FORMALLY ANNULLED, and that was done to Israel's COMPLETE SATISFACTION. I know that for a fact, because then-Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu claimed sole credit for it. Ever heard of him, SDHD?

"The Jewish revolt of 66 C.E. resulted in the Roman sacking of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews. The Palestinian Arabs weren`t involved." There were Palestinian Arabs in 66 C.E., you clueless oaf? "Does your point mean that because the Jews were dispersed by the Romans the current Jewish inhabitants of Palestine aren`t the progeny of the original Israelites that invaded the land of Canaan?" Not if they were dispersed, dummy. "The Palestinians are the progeny of the Jebusites," Did you get that out of a fortune cookie? "If the Palestinian ancestors built Jerusalem, as the bible says they did," The Bible doesn't mention the Palestinians, dopey. Funny how one of the sources you cite claims the Palestinians are from all over the Middle East. Probably, because THEY WERE!

SDHD: "That`s nice, puddin`head. 250 meters from the border, going where?" !!!!!! SDHD, I'll say this very, very sloooooooowly, because you do appear to be a slow ol' fella'. The. IDF. Has. Declared. Any. Ground. Within. 250. Metres. Of. The. Border. To. Be. A. Free. Fire. Zone. Any Hamas militant who wants to patrol that zone *is* going to be fired upon the moment he is seen, and he *will* be seen the moment he pops his head above ground level. *sheesh* Hamas need to know about developments along that border, and since THEY DON'T HAVE PLANES then they have to use foot patrols. Those patrols need tunnels to move about in, because they sure as heck aren't going to survive more than 5 minutes out in the open. Are you *really* so dense that you can't work that out, SDHD?

"What will you do? Your comments represent a non-sequitur, and have nothing to do with the history of the Jebusites, and their progeny the Palestinians." You're really on another planet when it comes to inventing the Palestinians. Jebusites, no less? What a clown.

"Six dead in one incident is a "material breach" of a ceasefire." 1) Rockets were still falling in Israel, a material breach. 2) Hamas was still smuggling weapons, a material breach. 3) Hamas was digging a tunnel into Israel, a material breach. Israel conducted a limited-scale operation to terminate an immediate threat, NOT a material breach.

"If your laugh is a nervous giggle because of a lack of knowledge of the subject, this may help: The Hebrew bible will confirm my comments about the Jebusites in Canaan; Jewish archaeologist, Ilene Beatty, supports claim that Palestinians descended from Canaanites." Yeah, right. What about the vast majority of them who immigrated? What do most archaeologists claim, not the fringe ones?

"The Palestinians recognize the right of the state of Israel to exist in peace and security. They did that in 1991, in an exchange of letters between Arafat and Rabin." You mean, the letter which stated that the PLO charter would be modified, yet, it wasn't?

"That Israel attacked a TUNNEL is not in doubt. That this tunnel was heading towards Israel is in considerable doubt." That's nice, puddin'head. 250 meters from the border, going where? Syria?

" But THOSE rockets were all fired AFTER the IDF commenced operations against Hamas." That operation commenced after Hamas attempted to dig a tunnel into Israel.

The Jewish revolt of 66 C.E. resulted in the Roman sacking of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews. The Palestinian Arabs weren't involved. As a dunce, you'll have to explain to me. Does your point mean that because the Jews were dispersed by the Romans the current Jewish inhabitants of Palestine aren't the progeny of the original Israelites that invaded the land of Canaan? If you didn't mean that, what did you mean? The Palestinians are the progeny of the Jebusites, perhaps they have more of a claim over Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem than the Jews. If the Palestinian ancestors built Jerusalem, as the bible says they did, and the Jews are all immigrants, perhaps the Jews don't have any historical claims to match those of the Palestinians.

Mr. Hardman, no expired treaty to call upon? What will you do? Your comments represent a non-sequitur, and have nothing to do with the history of the Jebusites, and their progeny the Palestinians.

PSM: "Sporadic fire? Missilles!" Here, PETER, to see the number of rockets: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Rock_mort_gaza_2008.JPG And here, PETER, to see the death toll: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Israelis_killed_by_Palestinians_in_Israel_and_Palestinians_killed_by_Israelis_in_Gaza_-_2008_prior_to_Gaza_War.png Note the massive - yep, MASSIVE - gap in both graphs when the ceasefire was in place? Note when that ENDED? November. Nov 4th, actually. PSM: "JOHNBOY decides material breach." Six dead in one incident is a "material breach" of a ceasefire. And *I* didn't set that precedent: Olmert did, when he went to war with Lebanon because Hezbollah killed three soldiers. But it's ALWAYS "self-defence", isn't it? No matter which side of the equation Israel is on, it's always "self-defence"....

If your laugh is a nervous giggle because of a lack of knowledge of the subject, this may help: The Hebrew bible will confirm my comments about the Jebusites in Canaan; Jewish archaeologist, Ilene Beatty, supports claim that Palestinians descended from Canaanites; Prof Ariella Oppenheim, Hebrew Univ.- Hadassah Medical School, produced DNA study determining Arab Israelis and Palestinians are descendants of a population that lived in the area since prehistoric times; American Committee for Jerusalem, and Tony Badran, Center for Terrorism Research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, Washington, D.C. both report "a number of historians and scholars claim majority of Arabs of Palestine are descendants of Jebusites;" British Anthropologist, Sir James Frazer, in his book The Golden Brough, "Arabic speaking peasants of Palestine are the progeny of tribes which settled in the country before the Israelite invasion." Now your references?

etj: " If the Palestinians have their way, the state of Israel should cease to exist and, because they don`t recognize the state as a state " The Palestinians recognize the right of the state of Israel to exist in peace and security. They did that in 1991, in an exchange of letters between Arafat and Rabin. They have never repudiated that recognition, etj. I'll point out, of course, that Rabin in his letter-in-reply did NOT recognize the right of the state of Palestine to exist in peace and security. Indeed, NO Israeli PM has EVER recognized that the state of Palestine has a RIGHT to exist at all, much less to exist in peace and security.

SDHD: "The cross-border raid [fact] was to shut down a tunnel [fact] Hamas was digging into Israel [claim], which was a breach of the ceasefire [claim]." That Israel attacked a TUNNEL is not in doubt. That this tunnel was heading towards Israel is in considerable doubt. SDHD: "Hamas was also smuggling weapons in from Egypt [fact], another breach of the ceasefire [claim]." You expect Hamas to agree to a ceasefire which says it commits itself to shut down those tunnels? Show me the text, please. SDHD: "Rockets were still flying into Israel all the way along[untrue], another breach of the ceasefire[untrue]." http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Rock_mort_gaza_2008.JPG In the five months June-Oct less than one a week was fired. That is not a "material breach" of a ceasefire. After all, BEFORE disengagement the rockets were being fired more frequently than that, so SDHD-logic dictates that the Golani brigade was attacking Israel.

JE.M: "So let me get this right." Indeed, it is important to get this right. JE.M: "Hamas only fired a couple of rockets before the Gaza war." Nobody but Dore Gold is making that claim. JE.M: "So who was the culprit firing the rest of the rockets?" Hamas, and Islamic Jihad. But THOSE rockets were all fired AFTER the IDF commenced operations against Hamas. The the IDF commenced operations on Nov 4th with a raid deep into Gaza that killed 6 Hamas militants. BEFORE that raid there were no rockets being fired by anybody. JE.M: "Why do they come out with such stupidly blatantly things like this." The "they" is Dore Gold, who claims that Travers said something that he most definitely did not say. The interview is here: http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/downloads/interviews/interview-with-colonel-desmond-travers.pdf Travers did not say the words "the month prior to start of the war". He is being verballed.

I'm always fascinated by how people reach opposing/conflicting conclusions with the same facts. Logic suggests that we don't share the same facts. I'm particularly curious about your notion that Palestinians accept the state of Israel with pre-67 borders. Most sriking is the reality that there were no Palestinians pre-67. Ergo, should Israel return to pre-67 borders, there would be no Palestinian to discuss peace with. You may recall that those who are nown as "Palestinian" post-67 were Jordanians pre-67. I'm also intrigued by your conclusion that Gazans want to live with dignity like you and I. I don't know who you are nor how you value life but I do recall that the myriad news reports shortly after 911 which showed Palestinians dancing in the streets after hearing of the collapsed World Trade Center buildings. I also recall news videos of Palestinian mothers who said they were proud of their sons who strapped on explosives and sacrificed their lives to kill Israeli children.

SDHD: "Did Travers say November 4? No, he didn`t say that either." !!!!! He said: "the number of rockets that had been fired into Israel in the month preceding their operations was something like two" If "their operations" = the Nov 4th raid then the preceding month was Oct, and 1 Qassam and 1 mortar were fired in Oct. If "their operations" = the Dec 27 air raid then the preceding month was Nov, and 125 Qassams and 68 mortars were fired in Nov. I insist Travers meant the former, for the very sensible reason that *if* he meant the Nov 4th raid then his statement makes perfect sense. SDHD insists that Travers meant the latter, and he so insists *merely* *because* that would make Travers statement a nonsense. In short: SDHD is insisting that Up is Down, and he does so merely so that he can claim that Travers is standing on his head. You Are A Dolt, SDHD.

"Every critique is not anti-semitism. " " I mean honestly how many times can you say arabs are dogs, arabs aren`t human, kill arabs, etc. and then claim your group is the victim of racism." Oh, the irony.

"Israel broke the ceasefire by executing a cross border raid to kidnap hamas militants. Those are the facts." The cross-border raid was to shut down a tunnel Hamas was digging into Israel, which was a breach of the ceasefire. Hamas was also smuggling weapons in from Egypt, another breach of the ceasefire. Rockets were still flying into Israel all the way along, another breach of the ceasefire. Those are the facts.

Quit the victim crap. Every critique is not anti-semitism. Too bad there isn't a fancy word for anti-arab sentiments because most of you would be accused of that. I mean honestly how many times can you say arabs are dogs, arabs aren't human, kill arabs, etc. and then claim your group is the victim of racism.

Israel broke the ceasefire by executing a cross border raid to kidnap hamas militants. Those are the facts.

Is there any proof in your comments? NO..you're not doing your team any favours with twaddle.Present a case on factual evidence Likud charter is evident of Israels procrastination in the Peace process and any attempt to resolve the issues in Gaza.Hamas has stated what they want and your team has clearly shown what their intentions are.

Here's a question for you, johnboy... As I have stated, there is "evidence," to an "Nth" degree about the tunnel. In all of the articles I've read, Hamas has never denied that there was such a tunnel, just that they were angry about Israel's incursion 250 meters into Gaza to destroy it. Can you explain why there is no denial of the existence of such a tunnel? Can you explain why there are no official refutations about the existence of this tunnel from any government agency? NGO? It seems only simpletons, such as yourself, claim there isn't enough evidence and the news services aren't good enough. When it comes to expunging Israel, you are a relativist. When it comes to criticizing Israel beyond all proportion, you are an absolutist.

So let me get this right. Hamas only fired a couple of rockets before the Gaza war. So who was the culprit firing the rest of the rockets? MI5? MI6? George Bush? Why do they come out with such stupidly blatantly things like this. No, there are too many of us out here who understand that the goal is to end the state of Israel. These commissions and the UN need to be defunded and disbanded.

"Now that`s what I call spin! Over and again the Palestinians through their leaders have accepeted Israel the State. " Meanwhile, they have never done so in an official capacity, and even more of them call for Israel's destruction.

"He wasn`t referring to "the month prior to start of the war", but to the month prior to "Israeli operations". Operations which, of course, began on November 4th." Need to lie now, do you? Did Travers say November 4? No, he didn't say that either. You pretend there's a blank, then you make up what goes inside of it yourself. If you want to play the obfuscation game, Israel has had operations since 1948.

Johnboy: "Then Israel would have no problem demonstrating that this tunnel went under Israel, right? Right?" SDHD: "Sure. Go there and have them demonstrate it to you." JB: It still hasn`t sunk in, has it? The IDF seized the opening to that tunnel i.e. it had CONTROL of that tunnel. You mean the tunnel you claim there was no evidence of? Why else would Israel conduct a limited scale operation to that level? To piss you off personally?

SDHD: "Hamas was tunneling into Israel." JB: "You have no evidence to back up that claim, SDHD." SDHD: "You mean the news services weren`t good enough?" JB: No, they aren`t good enough, SDHD Then why do you rely on them for your other information? The news services are full of "evidence" about this tunnel, you infantile slob. Why are news services worthy enough for you to criticize Israel, but not to lend it credibility?

"Hamas member Khaled Suleiman:" The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the `67 borders." Is that not clear enough for you Peter" Their charter and what most of their representatives say is even more clear. What one guy says for an audience one day doesn't wipe out what everyone else says every day.

"#259 SDHD be careful who you accuse. Ah the Hamas Charter, does that predate the Likud Charter which does not recognize the right of Palestine to exist." You said Hamas recognizes Israel, because of what one of their representatives said once, fool. Meanwhile, what most of their officials say, and what their charter says -- is a call for the destruction of Israel. Likud's charter has nothing to do with proving your statement false.

"If the Palestinians have their way, the state of Israel should cease to exist and, because they don`t recognize the state as a state and, because the collective position is that life to them carries less significance than it does to others" Now that's what I call spin! Over and again the Palestinians through their leaders have accepeted Israel the State. Fatah formally[or else Netanyahu would not even speak with them]and Hamas via numerous statements prisoners documents etc referring to pre 1967 lines. As to 'life to them carries less significance'. This was no doubt said by the Romans about the Huns, by the medieval Arabs about the Crusaders, by the European origin whites about the Africans and your own countrymen about blacks-some still say it. Vile racist claptrap. The vast majority of Gazans want no more than a life of dignity just like you and I and the Israelis. "Gaza, Roo, is not occupied land" If you control all land sea and air routes in and out of a land and enter it at will-its occupied. Hence most admittedly not all, international jurists recognise it as such. "the OSLO accord which would have given 100% of the disputed land to the Palestinians by the close of 1999" Absolutely not the case. Nowhere did OSLO stipulate the exact amount of land to be transferred to a Palestinian State. What is more to the point,[as confirmed by Israeli former OSLO participant and Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami] OSLO was a poor agreement for a weakened Fatah. It made no provision for Israel to cease confiscating and building on privately owned Palestinian lands and as such was destined to fail. There is no short term solution. Israel will keep building and hope to keep the Palestinians divided politically and geographically. Eventually the resultant tensions generated will manifest themselves around the region. No significant moves to engage in serious discussions will result until such a time that the US remove the incentive for Israel to engage in military solutions to political problems. This will only happen when the US realises it is no longer able to afford to enforce its will militarily throughout the region without a significant climb down by Israel. That the costs of continued blind support for Israel outweigh the benefits to a largely bankrupt US. This might take a few more years, possibly even decades. Yet who would deny that the US is central to Israels survival and prosperity and who would deny that the US is on course for a day of reckoning over its economic demise. The US and Israels destinies are inextricably linked.

"SOMETHING LIKE TWO" Something like? are you joking? where do you get your sources from? How can you accuse Israel with a comment such as "something like?" GO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. DESMOND TRAVERS YOU REALLY ARE A VERY ARTICULATE MAN..."SOMETHING LIKE" --A JOKE

histrory becomes less significant than the spin we cretae to pander to our ideologies. Gaza, Roo, is not occupied land; it's disputed land. There was never a Palestinian people until '67 when Arafat deemed it so. The so-called Palestinian is a Jordanian and the Jordanians are exprelling the "Palestinian" by the droves, a fact that goes unspoken by the media and dismissed by your kind because your ideology will not permit this reality or any discourse regarding this shame. You forget, of course, the OSLO accord which would have given 100% of the disputed land to the Palestinians by the close of 1999 but the war, for lack of a better term, is not about occupied land. It's about the unrelenting intent to destroy the state of Israel and a peoplehood who will stop at nothing to succeed. If you have a peaceful solution to the matter, you owe it to the warring parties to share it.

Doubtless, you have a solution to a problem that's spanned the history of humanity. If the Palestinians have their way, the state of Israel should cease to exist and, because they don't recognize the state as a state and, because the collective position is that life to them carries less significance than it does to others, they can send missiles to Israel indiscriminantly because innocent children in playgrounds are the same evil as the soldier with a pointed weapon. Israel, the state, responds. It does not initiate. Their response doesn't work other than to draw the ire of the Arab world and some others who firmly believe a different response will solve the thousands year old hatred between Arab and Jew. What's the winning solution, Boots? I want to know and the warring parties need to know.

ML: "When DID the war start?" Wrong question. The correct question is this: Did Travers really say "the month prior to start of the war"? The interview is here: http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/downloads/interviews/interview-with-colonel-desmond-travers.pdf Travers actually said: "However, it should be borne in mind that the number of rockets that had been fired into Israel in the month preceding their operations was something like two." He has been verballed. He wasn't referring to "the month prior to start of the war", but to the month prior to "Israeli operations". Operations which, of course, began on November 4th. Dore Gold is dissembling.

Johnboy: "Then Israel would have no problem demonstrating that this tunnel went under Israel, right? Right?" SDHD: "Sure. Go there and have them demonstrate it to you." It still hasn't sunk in, has it? The IDF seized the opening to that tunnel i.e. it had CONTROL of that tunnel. It could, therefore, find where that tunnel went to, and therefore ***demonstrate*** that the tunnel went under Israel. It. Did. No. Such. Thing. That doesn't ring any alarm bells inside that tiny little mind of yours, does it? The IDF spokesmodel threw you those crumbs, and you immediately gobbled them down. Very impressive. Can she also make you roll over and beg?

SDHD: "Hamas was tunneling into Israel." JB: "You have no evidence to back up that claim, SDHD." SDHD: "You mean the news services weren`t good enough?" No, they aren't good enough, SDHD, because all they did was repeat the Israeli CLAIM that the tunnel was being dug "into Israel". Israel produced no evidence to back up that claim; a tunnel has TWO ends, and Israel only showed the news services one end. Or didn't you notice that? SDHD: "Does someone need to take your head and shove it in that tunnel for you to believe it?" THINK for once, SDHD: the ***IDF*** needed to send one of THEIR grunts into that tunnel and THEN show his head popping up inside Israel. They didn't. No, I take that back: you aren't a "dolt". You are a "dupe". There is one born every minute, apparently, tho' they seem to appear much more frequently than that on talkback.

Good comments, as good as the movie!

#1 Israel was gettig BOMBED???? You mean like B52 strikes? You are a liar. The Palestineans only have non-guided model rockets with small explosive charges. No one bombs israel with 500 - 1000 pound bombs. Where are the dead? There shoulds be thousands of Israeli Jews dead by your claim. YOU LIE!!!!

around the issue will change that.That you chose to acknowledge your challenge was met say plenty about you. Finklestein did not say military defeat alone,he said specifically GERMANY & Japan.Do you think he did not know how many million died there.? 2.Finklestein has chosen not to appeal to the supreme court.If it is as open and shut as you claim he should win hands down.

Peter SM:"Has the leader of Hamas disowned their charter yet." Published: 05.11.06, 00:19 / Israel News Hamas member Khaled Suleiman:" The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders." Is that not clear enough for you Peter,whats Israel offered besides procrastination?

Peter SM:"You will note-look for it yourself,that USA white supremacists are using Finklestein videos on their website,intersting bedfellows." The only thing interesting is your attempt at the bedfellows comment,are you seriously claiming Finklestein would associate with a bunch of inbred hicks or are you trying to destroy what little credibility you have left.

Israel ever.. Selective reading of the Hamas charter and its racist calls for genocide. Selectively omitting that Likud leader has come out publicly and unequivocally in favor of a Pal state, Has the leader of Hamas disowned their charter yet??

I wanted to see the source. I said "I was calling you on thst one" .I also implied it was taken out of context=or more accurately NO context. As for guts. Before you said the problem with allowing N.F to enter Israel was that it was at a time of war. That is belied by the 10 year ban imposed on him. Que? You also spoke about the 2006 BBC link and completely misunderstood what was being reported so perhaps your judgment is at best impaired?

"Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences." That's a truism of sorts. The main difference between the two populations 'genetically' speaking appears to be that a large number of non 'Palestine' 'Judean' gentiles converted to Judaism both before the Roman destruction c135 AD and well after, including a large body of European Khazars who went on to form at least a significant part of modern Ashkenazim Jewry. Hence the rather NON eastern appearance of such Jews. P.S. SDHD is best addressed in words of short syllables.

Now ask Israeli civillians on the recieving end of Missiles NOT sporadic fire,apologist. I chose the dates because thats the dates BDS chose.

Ah the Hamas Charter, does that predate the Likud Charter which does not recognize the right of Palestine to exist. Nonsense?Hamas refuses to abide by the 3 conditions placed upon it by the quartet. 1) Recognize Israel. 2) Abide by previous agreements. 3) Terminate hostility against Israel. That`s why funding was cut to the Palestinians. Khaled Mashaal offer was clear except for you. The funding was cut because Hamas won over the expectation of Israel,America,you and your twaddle.

You may want to read up on the aims of Hezballah and its sponsor(s) Finklestein IS a security risk. You may want to read up on how many millions were killed in Germany and Japan. You will note-look for it yourself,that USA white supremacists are using Finklestein videos on their website,intersting bedfellows. You do not have the guts to admit I came good with my quote that you were denying.

Well Mr.Goldstone and the UN really have shown the worldthat niether the UN or Goldstone have any credibilty on operation Cast Lead in Gaza. To say only two rockets were fired at Israel before Cast Lead started is to insane to believe. I just wish the corrupt UN and its members would leave the United States and stop sucking money out of the American people and using our own money against us

"You are a hypocrite Peter and I have to say a coward to boot. It would be easier to simply state that you don`t consider freedom of speech or association as that important. N.F was banned from Israel for 10 years. NOTHING TO DO WITH being in a "in a time of war"." NF can speak as freely as he would like... but not in Israel. If it's not a time of war for Israel, you can tell us when peace treaties have been signed with Syria and the Palestinians. They've been at war since 1948. There is more freedom of speech in Israel than in any Arab country, evidenced by YOUR ability to flap your ignorant gums (at will) on a daily business on a popular Israeli news service.

"Nobody in their right mind admits an enemy supporter in a time of war,thats irresponsible and a security risk. Nothing to do with freedom of speech." You are a hypocrite Peter and I have to say a coward to boot. It would be easier to simply state that you don't consider freedom of speech or association as that important. N.F was banned from Israel for 10 years. NOTHING TO DO WITH being in a "in a time of war". "PS Quoting a 2006 BBC article for the total number of missiles fired at Israel??? Come on" PSM No PETER SM. Go back and look again old man. That article was NOT about missiles being fired at Israel but artillery shells being fired at Gaza. Over 2000 in 2 weeks. PAY ATTENTION! As for the video. As I said, those comments have to be taken in context. The context is that he believes that Israel, being a nation constantly seeking wars[now Iran]need to suffer a major defeat to 'bring it back to its senses'. That is not calling for its destruction. He says Germany today is a better nation FOR its defeat. He actually has called for a 2 state solution. Now it is an increasingly inescapable argument that until Israel suffers a comprehensive defeat it is unlikely to want to make serious attempts toward a resolution with the Palestinians or even the Syrians. There is some logic to this. Most international scholars[including a large number of Israeli ones] accept that Golda Meir arrogantly refused to countenance withdrawal from Sinai in 1971 and did not change her mind until after the Y.K war. In effect, the shock of that war led directly to a change in the dynamic. Ergo...

"Whatever hasbara is pumped out, the world believes Golstone on Gaza, because it conforms to what they saw with their own eyes on television. " You mean, the world didn't see the secondary explosions, the rockets raining down into Israel for 8 years, terrorism against Israelis from day 1. You're an idiot. You say "the world believes Goldstone." When did you go around the world and gather everyone's opinion? Are you that omnipotent or just delusional and self-important?

Whatever hasbara is pumped out, the world believes Golstone on Gaza, because it conforms to what they saw with their own eyes on television. Israeli televisions was heavily censored, so obviously all they saw was happy smiling IDF troops killing the occasional terorist and meanwhile helping humanitarian aid rush to the needy. Israel's supporters abroad presumably just watched Fox News ot turned off their TVs, otherwise they'd believe Goldstone as well.

"The only way forward for Israel is a massive defeat to bring it to its senses.Germany and Japan learnt from the experience of defeat." Given that Arabs in the region have been massacring Jews in the region since 1920, perhaps the Palestinians haven't learned from their own defeat and haven't been brought to their senses yet.

"Khaled Suleiman:"The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel,and in fact recognize Israel,but only within the "67 borders".05.11.06 Israel News." Now, read their charter. It calls for the destruction of Israel. Read what OTHER Hamas representatives say out of one side of their mouth. And why the '67 borders? Why are they entitled to 100% of these territories, Jew-free? "Khaled Mashaal offered a return to the 2005 agreement`which in fact was supported by the U.S.,an agreement that was before the election of Hamas. An end to the state of war which would include opening the borders." Nonsense. Hamas refuses to abide by the 3 conditions placed upon it by the quartet. 1) Recognize Israel. 2) Abide by previous agreements. 3) Terminate hostility against Israel. That's why funding was cut to the Palestinians. "The response from Israel was Operation Cast Lead." To rocket fire into Israel, imbecile.

"The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times" Then you have the immigration numbers which were tracked in modern times. Ooops.

"And I am not a Hamas supporter but they kept their end of the bargain and adhered to the cease fire." Once again, they were smuggling weapons from Egypt and were digging a tunnel into Israel.

SDHD: "You mean, Israel discovered that those 6 Palestinians were tunneling under the Gaza/Israel border to conduct another abduction." Johnboy: "Then Israel would have no problem demonstrating that this tunnel went under Israel, right? Right?" Sure. Go there and have them demonstrate it to you.

SDHD: "No, Hamas broke the ceasefire by tunneling under Israel and smuggling in weapons through Egypt" JB: "Sooooo, let me get this straight: Hamas were tunnelling UNDER ISRAEL in order to smuggle in weapons THROUGH EGYPT?!?!?!?!?!?!" No, dummy. They were tunneling into Israel AND smuggling weapons through tunnels in Egypt. One tunnel was being dug into Israel, several tunnels were used to smuggle weapons from Egypt. Weren't you keeping track of these events as they were unfolding, dunce? Did I say they were digging a tunnel into Israel to smuggle weapons from Egypt? Or did I say they were doing one thing AND the other, you blithering fool?

"SDHD: "Hamas was tunneling into Israel." JB: "You have no evidence to back up that claim, SDHD." You mean the news services weren't good enough? Does someone need to take your head and shove it in that tunnel for you to believe it? What do you think the Israeli forces went into Gaza to do, Johnboy? Steal someone's falafel? "Your claim that they were building this tunnel "into Israel" therefore requires something that is called "evidence"." And your claim that no evidence exists is based on your personally not having that evidence, right? Take your head out of the tunnel that it's in, and see the light.

"It`s interesting, both you and Tony Silver write with such authority about the subject: and neither one of you knows what you are talking about. The Palestinians are the original inhabitants of Palestine." You may not have been paying attention in class, but most of the "original inhabitants of Palestine" were kicked out of there by the Romans, dunce.

PSM: "Rockets were being fired between June & Nov so there was no cease fire for Israel to break." Two points: 1) There has to be a MATERIAL BREACH before an agreement (indeed, any agreement) is "broken" i.e. sporatic weapons fire does not "break" a ceasefire. 2) You are disengenious to date your timeline up to "Nov", because the IDF did, indeed, launch a MATERIAL BREACH of the ceasefire on Nov 4th. when they killed six Hamas men. PSM: "Israel did not break it Hamas did." No, Israel broke it. The MATERIAL BREACH of the ceasefire was that IDF action on Nov 4th when Barak sent his troops deep inside Gaza and then launched an airstrike in support that killed six Hamas men. That is a MATERIAL BREACH, and that "broke" the ceasefire. You only have to look at the figures pre-Nov4th and post-Nov3th to tell you that. Not that I'd ever expect you to open your eyes, of course.....

Just watched the link Peter and I agree with Finklestein. The only way forward for Israel is a massive defeat to bring it to its senses.Germany and Japan learnt from the experience of defeat.

Khaled Suleiman:"The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel,and in fact recognize Israel,but only within the "67 borders".05.11.06 Israel News. Khaled Mashaal offered a return to the 2005 agreement`which in fact was supported by the U.S.,an agreement that was before the election of Hamas. An end to the state of war which would include opening the borders. The response from Israel was Operation Cast Lead.

How many warnings are enough? How many dead Israelis = "peaceful resistance"?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1148561.html 181Title: ROO Here is Finklestein saying it.on YOUTUBE Name: PETER SM City: MELBOURNE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceroHrGKVk Nobody in their right mind admits an enemy supporter in a time of war,thats irresponsible and a security risk.Nothing to do with freedom of speech. 210 Title: So PETER SM you couldn`t back up your quote? #110 Name: Roo City: State: I`m calling you on this one. "Finklestein also called for destruction of Israel on the scale of Germany and Japan in one of his video debates" ...tick tock...Nice. PS Quoting a 2006 BBC article for the total number of missiles fired at Israel??? Come on

The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences. The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.

And I am not a Hamas supporter but they kept their end of the bargain and adhered to the cease fire. On November 6 2008, Israel violated the cease fire and decided to pursue an offensive in Gaza. It don't take a genius to know that Israel at times will try to bolster Hamas agaiNST Fatah, then it does the opposite for Fatah against Hamas. Abbas has made a mockery of Fatah as they've earned the nickname of Israeli butt kissers and indirect Israeli occupiers of Palestinian lands. Israel should just stop bothering us. Accept the state solution, a Palestine in Gaza, West Bank and Arab JERUSALEM, you keep the rest, leave us alone, our livelihood, and REST ASSURED, WE WON'T GIVE A FLYING MONKEY ABOUT ISRAEL. In fact call yourself the Jewish state, who cares just leave us ALONE

ron , is suggest you put the history of israel into a chronological order. start with ancient egypt and copper mining . then add the multitude of conquerors and occupiers ! then provide some dna proof a 99% test basis . most arabs originate from saudi tribes going north for islam !

Rockets were being fired between June & Nov so there was no cease fire for Israel to break. Israel did not break it Hamas did.They run Gaza,they have a militia of many thousands,they are responsible for what comes ouit of there. What do you think the tunnels headed to the Israeli border from Gaza were for.? How many warnings to stop firing missiles at Israeli citizens are enough??

But he is very seldom right... SDHD: "You mean, Israel discovered that those 6 Palestinians were tunneling under the Gaza/Israel border to conduct another abduction." Then Israel would have no problem demonstrating that this tunnel went under Israel, right? Right? SDHD: "They conducted a limited operation to destroy that tunnel." They took control of the tunnel opening. One IDF soldier with a compass and a torch could then demonstrate that it was heading towards Israel. The IDF did that, right? Right? SDHD: "The terms of the ceasefire also included no importation of weapons. Hamas had been in breach of it the whole time, dopey." And the quid pro quo was that Israel would open the crossings. Israel had been in breach of it the whole time, dopey. Funny, but SDHD-logic would tend to suggest that meant that Hamas would be justified attacking inside Israel......

SDHD: "No, Hamas broke the ceasefire by tunneling under Israel and smuggling in weapons through Egypt" Sooooo, let me get this straight: Hamas were tunnelling UNDER ISRAEL in order to smuggle in weapons THROUGH EGYPT?!?!?!?!?!?! Errr, no, SDHD, that can't be right. Now, it is undeniable that Hamas were smuggling weapons in "through Egypt", but that in itself does not justify attacking that tunnel, because that tunnel wasn't involved in any smuggling. And it is undeniable that a tunnel "under Israel" can be attacked; but if you **do** attack it then there **is** an onus on Israel to demonstrate that the tunnel did go "under Israel". Israel didn't actually show that it did. Do you want to have three guesses why, SDHD?

..."In the academic world there are many notable historians and scholars who have determined that the Jebusites are the forebears of Palestinians." Abbas:"We take pride in this Arab nationalist language because we are the authentic Arabs who believe in our Arabism, our faith, our cause, our Nation, in our right to struggle and to resistance in all possible ways in all the occupied lands, in Palestine, Lebanon the Golan and Iraq..." [Palestinian Television (Fatah) Feb. 26, 2008]?Talk about Jebusites,Ron. ... "According to the New York University School of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences, Middle East Jewish men and Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian men have the same genetic signature, different from any other non-Jews in the world." Yasser Arafat Private speech entitled "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996 "We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews." Yes Ron.We Palestinians from Egypt....and Arabian Peninsula.....will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....

SDHD: "Hamas was tunneling into Israel." You have no evidence to back up that claim, SDHD. Hamas were facing the IDF across a border. The IDF had complete and total mastery of the sky near that border (and everywhere beyond that). It therefore made perfect sense for Hamas to riddle THEIR side of that border with as many tunnels as they could build. Your claim that they were building this tunnel "into Israel" therefore requires something that is called "evidence". You appear to have none, except the pontifications of the IDF spokesmodel. SDHD: "Israel conducted a limited operation to shut down the tunnel." That it did. And that is, indeed, a ceasefire violation. SDHD: "Hamas was also smuggling arms all the way along -- a breach of the terms of the ceasefire as well." Unless you want to claim that they were digging that tunnel "into Israel" so that they could "smuggle arms" FROM Israel INTO Gaza then you are simply guilding the lilly.

I have seen some strange posts on Haaretz Talkback, but the bizarre combination of biblical literalism (when Joshua "led the Israelites into Canaan") in alliance with pure fantasy and misrepresention of science ("historians and scholars" have "determined that Jebusites are the forbears of Palestinians") is genuinely funny. Thanks for the laugh.

The so called `investigators` are doing a tremendous job themselves.

Durson wants us to believe the Pals have so many grievances that give them *** Ample cause for resistance ***. a: In Hamas jargon, resistance is the code name for murder and terror of innocent civilians. b: If there's ample cause, you MUST face the consequences without crying, Durson. This isn't target practice, it is a 2-way street. Your resistance will bring a crushing blow to your innocent angels who are born with murder in their DNA. c: The only thing that has held Israel back is a leader with balls. Cast Lead should have commenced after the FIRST rocket. Fire one, Israel fires five. Rules of engagement are equal, fire blindly at civilians, same for Israel. I doubt we would have witnessed the 100th rocket under this scenario. Durson, cause for resistance is cause to crush Gaza, long overdue.

It's interesting, both you and Tony Silver write with such authority about the subject: and neither one of you knows what you are talking about. The Palestinians are the original inhabitants of Palestine. When Joshua led the Israelites into Canaan, also known at that time as Palestine, the land was inhabited by (among others)semite tribes, Hittites, Amorites and Jebusites. The Jebusites had already built Jerusalem, and inhabited it for over a 100 years after the Israelites entered Canaan.They weren't called Arabs then, and the Israelites weren't called Jews. In the academic world there are many notable historians and scholars who have determined that the Jebusites are the forebears of Palestinians. According to the New York University School of Medicine, and the National Academy of Sciences, Middle East Jewish men and Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian men have the same genetic signature, different from any other non-Jews in the world.

"you will see that he is referring to the month before Israeli violated the cease fire on NOvember 6." Hamas was tunneling into Israel. Israel conducted a limited operation to shut down the tunnel. Hamas was also smuggling arms all the way along -- a breach of the terms of the ceasefire as well.

The Olmert Government chose to lie about the situation in October and November of 2009. It then chose to lie about it's actions in December 2009. It then chose to not cooperate and present Israel's position to the Goldstone investigation. When people choose to lie and refuse to investigate, then they have something to hide. Do ALL Israelis deserve to be seen as the Olmert Government and the subsequent Netanyahu government have chosen to portray them? I KNOW that not all Israelis are right-wing extremists who have to justify activities which they would never engage in. If there Is anything which raises my suspicions it is the lack of support for the official positions on Cast Lead from those who executed the mission. There have been MANY objections, but few endorsements. The IDF remains a citizen army and it is composed of citizens of all beliefs. There is something wrong about Cast Lead, as there was about the Second Lebanon War.

If the war only started when Israel attacked Gaza, then the idea that Hamas had only fired a few rockets is false. If the war started when Israel violated the cease fire in early November then the assertion that Hamas had only fired a few rockets is true. Indeed, during the rest of November 2009, Hamas was quite reluctant to fire rockets and the majority - if not all - of those fired into Israel were launched by Islamic Jihad. These are the simple facts. Hamas had by October 2009 held up it's end of the cease fire. But by September of 2009 Israel had already decided to end the cease fire by attacking Gaza and in particular the graduating class at the Police Academy. It seems that Israel never intended to keep the cease fire and Hamas seems to have tried to do so. Otherwise the debate within the Olmert government of WHEN and HOW to end the Cease Fire never would have happened. That debate happened over a month before Israel ended the cease fire in early November.

"How many rockets does it take at aimed at or shot into your bedroom before you assume a right to a legitimate response? And, what should your response be?" How about... something that WORKS?

Are you still peddling this pathetic invention? Even Golda Meir, the first zionist to say it in public, wrote that she regretted saying it immediately after the words came out of her mouth! It is true that repeating lies often enough will lead to them being accepted as true. However Israel has gone from having almost unflinching world support to pariah state hated by everybody... I wonder why? Could it be because we can see that your statements are just barefaced lies?

from the bench

Yes, and it is the same court of world opinion that does give a dam about the Congo, darfur etc.... Now in countries of law, justice systems were set-up to go away with courts of opinions. it was called lynching.

This really shows the objectivity with which the Goldstone report was written. Thousands of rockets become 2 (unless he was talking during the minute before cast lead started). Also It was Hamas that refused to renew the cease fire. But thbis is typical lies become historical truths.

What's your point, that Regev is oleaginous? I know what thaqt means but I still don't know what ou mean by your comment. Suggest you read interview with Desmond (I found it by Googling his name) in which he said two rockets in the month before Cast Lead. He did not say that only two rockets were fired since whenever as the article in Haaretz says the Israel officials cite in further efforts to denigrate the Goldstone report.

Goldstone co-author was correct in what he said. Unfortunately it is being turned into something he absolutely DID NOT say. It is true that during the time period that he was referring to, there WAS only 1 rocket recorded to have been fired. Unfortunately the utterly silly political spin that is being put on this is that he was somehow referring to all time, not just the limited time period he was clearly talking about. Even worse, is that Israeli's are making themselves look completely silly by INTENTIONALLY blinding themselves to the time period that he was talking about. Israel again comes off looking like a bunch of henny-pennies. A bunch of chickens running around with their heads cut off -- ears closed and mouths running senselessly.

Am I understanding this Travers fellow correctly...if the rockets did not kill or main anyone...if the rockets did not destroy houses...then there were no rockets? Stupid idiot and to think he co authored this report with the other idiot Goldstone. G-d help us...

It amazes me that in view of all that has come out that you can still think the Goldstone report is flawless. Excuse me, but your bias is showing.

There's obviously no hope for making peace with you and yours. I'm crossing you off my Christmas list.

It seem pretty apparent that there are some serious flaws with the Goldstone report. It's too bad. It could have made a real contribution to understanding wars against non-state actors and mistakes that should be avoided.

Travers shows his bias in the interview excerpts with sentences like "I do not believe the photographs". Pure rethoric, no evidence. And consequently, the agenda he follows. Beside, it seems there is a sense of revenge motivating the position of this "gentleman". But frankly what can you expect from the UNHRC and its mob who are serving the agenda of dictatorships? What is more preoccupying, is that westerners are embracing the position with such an ease.

How in the world can one tunnel under Israel to smuggle in weapons from Egypt? The tunnels at Rifah run between Egypt and Gaza. How would they ever go thru Israel? How does smuggling thru tunnels break a cease fire? Cease fire means stop firing: that's all. Haven't you ever looked at a map?

'If any of you guys actually read the interview with Travers, you will see that he is referring to the month before Israeli violated the cease fire on NOvember 6.' Cruel of you not to point this out until now -- but it won't bother most of the posters in the least.

HC - Israel claims that its attack on Gaza was based on self-defence. In your opinion is their claim of self-defence enough of a reason to justify their attack on Gaza last year? DT - No, I reject that entirely. No, my first sentence is that Israel, like every other country, has a right to defend itself. However, it should be borne in mind that the number of rockets that had been fired into Israel in the month preceding their operations was something like two. The Hamas rockets had ceased being fired into Israel and not only that but Hamas sought a continuation of the ceasefire. Two had been fired from Gaza, but they are likely to have been fired by dissident groups. HC - For how long had there been a ceasefire? DT - From June [2008]. And Hamas sought an extension of the ceasefire with Israel and Israel said no. To be honest, Israel might have had a very good reason to refuse an extension of the ceasefire because we all know, in the counter-insurgency world, that ceasefires are opportunities for insurgents to re-arm and re-equip but unfortunately they have never offered that as an explanation, but it is possible, if I'm trying to be fair to them [the Israelis]. http://www.sott.net/articles/show/202529-Exclusive-Middle-East-Monitor-interview-with-Colonel-Desmond-Travers-Co-author-of-the-UN-s-Goldstone-Report-

i'm with you all the way CJ, i've always said there are good and bad in all, we don't hate all jews, just those that call themselves zionists, jews NEED a homeland of their own, no doubt about it, but at the others expense? peace can only be brought about when the WHOLE world says to israel "back to your original borders and stay there", only then will all the arabs say fair enough and everyone can get on with their lives.

Travers is being quoted out of context, he was referring to the month prior to Israel's incursion into Gaza on November 4th which killed 6 Palestinians and after which the ceasefire broke down. In fact he's coming down on Hamas harder than the official Israeli position, which agrees that 2 rockets were fired at Israel in this period, but that these rockets were probably fired by dissident Fatah militants in defiance of Hamas. http://www.rightsidenews.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=3157 "The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire. "

Breaking wills and spirits have simply been superseded by teaching them a good lesson. As you are well aware semantics only as the committing of overt war crimes remains exactly the same. .

If there were "ONLY" 15 missile fired from Gaza at Israel between June & Nov,then who exactly broke the cease fire?? How many rockets on Israeli civillians are acceptable ? How many tunnels dug to go under the border? We have your personal guarrantee that their intentions were peaceful.? The old Arafat fan dance of "no it was not me" is old garbage,Israel even has cheques signed by him to terror groups he denied he controlled and one even admitted on the BBC that they stop when Arafat tells them to do so?.Either Hamas,the elected government of Palestine stops the fire at Israelis,it has a well armed militia,or it is at war with Israel. You cant be half pregnant.

Indeed the orgins of the conflict are historical and more to the point metaphysical. However the subject is far too intricate for any kind of judicial exploration. Suffice to say that the Pagan World took upon itself to mimic the Jews and accept their holy books. Like a certain familiar bird it laid its eggs in the warm Jewish nest. Every Christian who reads Psalms, every Moslem who believes in Abraham and Moses is rooted in Jewish tradition. This is the source of much strife.

No attempt to argue the points I have written. Merely an attempt to tar me with the anti semitic brush. Criticism of the government of Israel is not anti semitism, criticism of a person who follows the jewish faith because and only because they are Jewish is. You'll probably discount this as well. But I remind you Zionism is a political movemnet not a religious one.

Nothing anti-semitic about Natallie. (Note the corrected spelling of the word)

"The Six-Day War began with Israel firing the first shot at its neighbors," So you're admitting Israel started the war, as it has started all wars it has been involved in.

A Jewish lobby which protects the rights and freedoms of Jews domicile in the United Kingdom is perfectly acceptable. They are a minority that should be protected, and should have a voice within British democracy. I'll make it clear I do not have a problem with that. What I do feel have a right to question is if there is a lobby which attempts to influence British policy towards another country by buying favour with british politicians and political parties. All British parties in the UK are very well represented by the Jewish people surely that should be enough.

The solution will not come by studying history. The ancient facts and the recent past are well known. Basically, the world, as represented by the UN gave a tiny sliver of land to the Jews. Everyone got on board except the Arabs. The only way out seems to be an all-out war, no holds barred, no distinction between combatants and civilians, no prisoners. It might be bloody, but it will finally settle it one way or the other.

Where a lot of people got scared, and a very few people got hurt. More sorry about Gaza, where a thousand civilians, mostly women and children were killed, and thousands more injured.

There is an old Midrash that the Christmas story couldn't take place in Ireland because they couldn't find three Wise Men [ or in London because they couldn't find a Virgin!] This Irishman sounds like the BBC who said the number dead in the war were 13 Israelis and 1,300 Palestinians -- as if the 1,250 Israeli civilians killed by Hamas suicide bombers had nothing to do with the decision to attack Hamas, nor the 7,000 missiles fired into Israel over several years. When Cast Lead began the heads of the PA, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi pinned the blame clearly on Hamas and now someone tries to re-write the history as if we have such short memories!

So Israel has sirens? What does that prove?

At first I thought he just hates Jews, but then I realized that perhaps I was just being paranoid. Perhaps he just can't count beyond two.

This is the kind of pinpoint accuracy sadly lacking in Israel today but which Mr Travers has managed to overcome and even Mastered He has no idea how many rockets were fired since something like two could be three, four, five or ten thousand. He has just admitted he does not know the facts? So how can you Jew Bashers guarantee any story when there is an agenda, being created. Western leaders are caving in to the Propaganda fed by the Media. Once Governments realise all their people are Antisemitic they will quickly turn against us. Then Mr Travers TWO will become NONE. How do you feel about that?

range rockets over to your house. Better hope they don't hit it.

With the right-wing rhetoric at a fever pitch in the months before the election, Kadima was desperate to show itself to be "strong" and hence the scheme to force a Palestinian reaction and ultimately a war. Maybe not so dopey, huh?

Actually, Dan, it is more likely the nail is in Israel's coffin.

When did we have a debate on a particular point or topic on Haaretz? And as for hate and vitriol, I have never repeat never taking issue with someone because they are Jewish. What I have done and being very careful to do is question the policies and actions of the Government of Israel. So if you want to take yourself off the pedestal of accusing me of anti semitism, what do you want to debate and what do you take issue with what I post. Because if i am upsetting you because you think i am attacking your faith I assure you I am not. If you tell me what it is that I am doing wrong I'll try and adapt my posts even further than I already do. Because I can assure you I a not against the Jewish religion, because as a Christian and if you think about it I bellong to a branch of Judaism

I do not subscribe to Nazi theories of the insidious Jew. What I can and will question is if it is democratic in a democracy to allow a political party to recieve donations to influence foreign policy of the United Kingdom. No Jewish conspiracy, no the Jews are taking over the world spiel. Just one simple question. Should any politician or political party be allowed to accept money from a lobby group? Whether it be weapons dealers, people promoting particular healthcare products, or attempting to influence foreign policy.

and let him defend himself in a court of law, facing top Jurists. He is a rabid anti-semite and has helped to influence a spurious report which has a devastating effect on world Jewry. He cannot get off lightly. Once and for all, a person like this needs to be brought to an open court of law and let his true colours come through. Enough and world Jewry cannot let this rest.

One should expect that from Goldstone's collaborator.

This is a bit weird. But all that counts is the bottom line, which is until an independent impartial investigation is conducted no excuse can justify the alleged war crimes committed by the IDF. End of story.

So many of the Talkbackers are lazy idiots. After a two-hour Google search, it turns out that its quite hard to get objective data on Qassam rocket attacks in the one-month, two-month, three-month period before Cast Lead. Best I've found is a right wing website that parrots the Israeli military and intelligence community, but seems suprisingly non-hysterical and faithful to facts. Here are some quotes: "During the lull, prior to Israel`s attack on November 4, the lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instances in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire." FROM: Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center, “The Six Months of the Lull Arrangement”, dated December 24, 2008. http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e017.pdf

Travers: "in the month prior to start of the war, only 'something like two' rockets that fell on Israel." Cast Lead began in December, so the "prior month" was November. If you take that month then Travers is clearly wrong. But if you look at the month BEFORE that then he is quite correct i.e. only two qassams landed on Israeli soil during October. And October **WAS** the "month prior" to the Nov 4th incursion by the IDF that killed six Hamas militants i.e. October was the "month prior" to Israel breaking the ceasefire. The dude is quilty of nothing more than a slip of the tongue i.e. he said "the month prior to start of the war", when he should have said "the month prior to the end of the ceasefire". Storm in a teacup.

Gaza is occupied because Palestinians and their naive Western apologists arrogantly assert that Palestiians, but only Palestinians, are entitled to their own,unique rights and definitions of words. For example, "Palestinian refugees", may be the third generation to be "refugees" from a place that they have never lived. Similarly, although an "occupation" normally requires the presence of an "occupying forces army", to Palestinians a blockaded Gaza is "occupied" because there are Israelis nearby, which makes them FEEL as if "occupied",and thats good enough for the "Palestinian only" definition of "occupied". Perhaps later, we can discuss the Palestinan definition of "peaceful protest" or "indigenous people."

Weren't there rockets fired at the USS Liberty? How did the US react?

*chortle* The Hasbarah Hacks simply don't get it, do they? "The court of world opinion seems determined to see the report prevail," Travers is perfectly correct: the battle over the narrative is over, and Israel has lost. Israel went too far during Cast Lead, and having gone too far it can not avoid the consequences. Dore is wasting his time, because EVERYONE has stop listening to Israel's narrative. E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E. Travers indulged in some rash hyperbole during an interview? Yeah, so? The REPORT did not indulge in that rash hyperbole, and so whatever Travers did say makes no difference. Travers made some outlandish accusation about Israel's actions in Lebanon? Yeah, and? So? The REPORT did not mention that at all, and so whatever Travers said about it in an interview makes no difference. YOU CAN NOT CHARACTER ASSASSINATE YOUR WAY OUT OF THIS ONE, BECAUSE NOBODY IS LISTENING. N.O.B.O.D.Y.

"The pro-Goldtone camp has no clear "government" behind it. Even Iran media reports on Goldstone are `restrained`." Okay Walter has the snow up there frozen your brain or are you an idiot like that stupid previous governor you had. Take a look at the nations on the Human Rights Committee and tell us with a straight face there is no "clear government" behind it. Yes those countries with some of the worst human rights in the world are deciding who shall be investigated for alleged human rights abuses. And always Israel seems to be the candidate. Its amazing what a horses ass Goldstone was to be a part of such a corrupt and immoral organization

there must come an investigation from beginnings to present how, why and when the israeli-palestinian conflict/problem has started and that it has come so far now. let the investigation begin in the 19th century, or in biblical times when father abraham lived, almost 4000 years ago, which does fact and truth finding. perhaps richard goldstone or another capable judge can do such an investigation, not only to causes, results but also come with solutions so that this conflict finaly will end.

Between June 19th and Nov 4th (when Israel broke the ceasefire) only fifteen (15) Qassam rockets hit Israel, none of them launched by Hamas. See the oleaginous Mark Regev's confirmation of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c&feature=related

to stay away from commenting on his work. Forget `two or so rockets` crap. That is the notorious, dedicated Israeli basher who does not care what lines of stupidity & facts he crosses when he speaks in regards to Israel. How about: ...Travers also criticized Israel's past presence in Southern Lebanon, asserting that Israeli soldiers had "taken out and deliberately shot" Irish peacekeeping forces in the area. He accused "Jewish lobbyists" of influencing British foreign policy in the Middle East... Fine `unbiased` fact finding speciman. I got the new pair suggestion for UN next report on `crazy, dirty` Israel: Co-author Galloway with Gideon Levy presideing over the report. Presiding Israeli Jew vs. SA Jew. Even better effectual impact.

If any of you guys actually read the interview with Travers, you will see that he is referring to the month before Israeli violated the cease fire on NOvember 6. And there was one , not two.He actually goes on to say that he understood the problematic nature of the cease fire for Israel.

Guantanamo and all the other extraordinary rendition destinations. In other words,not UN but US.

"The indisputable fact is that rockets are fired from a non-state to a legitimate state for the sole purpose of indiscriminantly killing anyone and everyone in the legitimate state." True, the numbers are not crucial, yet time and again the inflated numbers are trotted out, so they do seem to matter to a lot of people. Non state firing rockets into a 'legitimate' state. There's the rub. 'Indisputably' Gaza was indeed an occupied land when those rockets were first fired. Today the majority view is that Gaza is still effectively occupied [as testified by Travers]. Under these circumstances Israel should be bound by conventions governing 'occupying powers'. Does that really matter? I think it should. These conventions which insist that collective punishment should not be meted out and the Nuremberg standard which prohibits military responses to aggressions unless non violent measures are tried first [they were deliberately ignored. See #61]were all introduced or modified ONLY in response to the Nazi war crimes of WWII. Now how ironic is that?

that ain't nothing. How many times have Hamas, you and me sinned against the real living God?

Don't bother questioning or debating Nutaly Durson. She is a "palistinian" American and hates Israel.

bravo!!, this finally exposes the ridiculousness of the bias in this report... two rockets!! gimme a break!! and in any case ... a rocket is a rocket, imagine someone firing a rocket at the US.. tell me there would not be a response.. these rockets target anyone also, it not at the establishment, its at any isreali, arab / jewish / christian.. whoever.

He's just dyslexic.

Why do you refer to Goldstone's "traiterous report". Exactly to whom is he a traitor? He is not an Israeli, but a South African. Or do you think that because he is a Jew, he should never criticise Israel? If so, that makes you a racist.

The accuracy of the Goldstone report seems to be as accurate as the UN Global Warming Report

Does it truly matter how many rockets were fired from Gaza to Israel?? The indisputable fact is that rockets are fired from a non-state to a legitimate state for the sole purpose of indiscriminantly killing anyone and everyone in the legitimate state. How many rockets does it take at aimed at or shot into your bedroom before you assume a right to a legitimate response? And, what should your response be?

too many stupid excuse.

The real motive for Cast Lead II.

Thats were the motive for Cast Lead II.

For the crashing of 2 or 3 planes on 9/11 the US went to war against Afghanistan and Iraq. What a war crime they mnust be guilty of perpetrating. In any event what's the difference between 2 or 3 bombs and 2,000 to 2,000 bombs. The issue is Jews vs arabs, and though Travers and the Irish don't have any fondness for arabs, their hatred of Jews trump all other considerations.

Check at this link for Cast Lead justification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006 and also "On December 18, 2008 a fragile six-month Israel-Hamas ceasefire was set to expire. There had been sporadic violent clashes along the Israeli-Gaza border and a stepping up of the blockade of Gaza in the previous two months, with both sides accusing each other of violating the truce[19]. Hamas announced its intention not to renew the truce when it expired unless Israel would commit "to all of its conditions".[19][20]. On 24 December Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel intensified.[21] Rocket fire continued without letup with Gaza militants firing some 50 rockets into southern Israel in the days preceding the conflict.[22] " from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War He must think we're stupid to believe his clap trap

He jointly deserves the nobel prize for literature - for one of the most dazzling works of fiction to hit the streets in recent years. Some chapters do however suggest it should be physics, as he makes Hammas rockets disappear this disproving Newton and Einstein, proving that black is actually white,or would it be for chemistry where he has discovered the formula for the Spanish inquisition - take one catholic with revolting prejudice against Jews, a court Jew who will do anything to ingratiate himself as a latter day faust, and two cases of biased prejudice, and stir well - but in the end it most certainly is not maths - perha

"Palestinians of today are the children of jews who later converted to Christianity and Islam." In the 19th century, hardly anyone was living there, my poor little fiction writer. Most of the Palestinians are recent immigrants into the region who pursued the growing economy in the region due to Jewish immigration. Why do you think the UNRWA considers a "Palestinian" to be someone who'd only been living there for 2 years? Why do they have family names from Iraq? Syria? Egypt? Etc. Try telling your fairytales to people who won't call you on them.

This is bang on the right thing for Israel to do.If Israel's accusers want Israel to show that Israel's inquiry is credible,first let the UN prove that the Goldstone investigation is credible. Accusations are serious things and it's only right that there should be full confidence in the integrity and impartiality of the people who make them.If this report about Desmond Travers is accurate,confidence in him should evaporate.It should be publicised far and wide by Israel. Keep on digging,Israel,this is the counter-attack against the Goldstone report,and about time,too.Israel's position isn't irredeemable. THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!!

"Israel broke the cease fire around the end of november by raiding Gaza and killing 6 hamas militants," No, Hamas broke the ceasefire by tunneling under Israel and smuggling in weapons through Egypt.

"Again we see the the attempt of the Israel-can-do-no-wrongers to revise history - Hamas offered to continue the cease-fire and Israel attacked and killed six Palestinians knowing there would be a reaction." You mean, Israel discovered that those 6 Palestinians were tunneling under the Gaza/Israel border to conduct another abduction. They conducted a limited operation to destroy that tunnel. The terms of the ceasefire also included no importation of weapons. Hamas had been in breach of it the whole time, dopey.

There are millions of people who can testify that Travers is wrong. More crap.

..."Twisted reality of Jew haters.." CJ: "Uh huh. Goldstone is a Jew. Uri Avnery is a Jew." Do they say Jews bribed the British government or that only 2 rockets were fired at Israel the month before Israeli operations?

Maybe next time Israel should just shoot rockets back on a 1 for 1 basis. What would Goldie's group say then?

From page 11 "However, it should be borne in mind that the number of rockets that had been fired into Israel in the moth preceding their operations was something like two."

I'm not going to try to wade through them. There is a reasonably good commentary at The Volokh Conspiracy: http://volokh.com/2010/02/10/goldstone-report-co-author-is-a-nutter/ I have arguments with both sides of issues regarding Israel, but Travers is simply off his rocker with his comments. Another black eye for the U.N.

" #3 US citizen sings a well worn tune. Accusing all criticism of Israel as anti semitic." When you start blubbering about "Zionist influence," to convince people that more than 2 rockets were fired, that is when you enter the realm of anti-Semitism. Another facet of anti-Semitism is to deny anti-Semitism when it's staring you in the face.

Blows the crap out of all Zionist haters theories huh

From a a plestinian news agenct "MAAN": "The military wing affiliated to Hamas, Al-Qassam Brigades released a statement on Thursday morning briefing the group's military activities over the first twenty four hours of an operation they called “Oil Stain” which started Wednesday morning. According to the statement, a total of 87 shells have been fired at Israeli targets bordering the Gaza Strip including 54 mortar shells, 31 homemade projectiles which Hamas calls “Qassam”, and two Soviet-made Grad missiles." http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=34211 Who's a liar?

2 bottle rockets in a month... No wonder Israel is increasingly under scrutiny from the world community. No wonder Israeli leaders face possible war crimes accusations and now have to watch where they travel for fear of being arrested. Thank god there are people in Israel who will not hide their head in the sand. Israel is becoming a pariah country like old South Africa. Wake up Israel, it's time for peace and justice!

its getting kafkanic people from all over the world want to tell in sedrote people how many kasams felt daily on sedrot. One from scotland even argues with sedrot person about propaganda numbers! how stupid and arogant these western people are

Once upon time, More than 2 thousand years ago, jews were living there until the Roman expelled them. Palestinians of today are the children of jews who later converted to Christianity and Islam.

'Hence the pretext for a war with the elections impeding.' elections? re u talkin about the elections that kadima has lost too much power to likud? kadima came to power with the promise of peace promises they lost it with 2 wars. is kadima nutz top start a war to lose power?? Labor was in both situation would be in the coalition. likud was the opposition... so war is for elections theory is wrong or israeli leaders doesnt know at all what the people wants from em...

This Travers is undergoing a therapy .. don't tell him he's wrong. It could push him in some nightmare. Very soon he'll say that it was the Israelis who shoot the rockets on Sderot

Maybe next time Israel should just shoot rockets back on a 1 for 1 basis. What would Goldie's group say then?

He got confused and though he was being ask how many beers did you have? I am sure he always tells the cop something like two. Is there any good report who will corner UN cheif and force him to answer a simple question. Did hamas only fire something like 2 rocket at israeli civilians in the months prior to the israeli operation? Its a yes or no answer. If he lies or refuses to answer, then IDF should immediatly conduct offensive meaures against UN troops in the area since UN is now in bed offically with terrorists.

Nice bunch of people. What the hell are your countries doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Where are you when civilians are killed daily by your criminal armies and governments? Does your humanity stop at the doors of the hell you live in or goes beyond your petty interest in bashing us? Your pathetic unbalanced views are another side of your disgusting hate for my Country. Where are you when Ahmadinejad threatens on a daily basis my very existence? Your silence is not more than your complicity in your governments actions and the so called humanistic approach to our conflict. Yes, civilians were killed in Gaza, a terrible things, no excuse to justify the loss of one child but to accuse Israel of deliberate killings, that is disgusting. How has the world progressed! Once we were accused of killing children to bake Matzot. Now it is about killing them to harvest their organs, for the sheer pleasure of it or some other repulsive inventions in your twisted and sick minds.

Goldstone - A soldier of fortune - He is a disgrace. This Shrewd "so called Judge??HAHA!! All he ever does is look to feather his own pompous fame. He wants to be head of the UN - Thats whats really behind this arrogant liar. He will fit in very well with all the other beauts who run that very biased disorganization. Richard Goldstone - what a piece of work you turned out to be. As a South African too I cannot say I am shocked We all know what your real personal goals are

"www.SderotMedia.org.il, to see the real rocket statistics. Over 500 rockets were fired just during the 6 month ceasefire that led up to Operation Cast Lead." lies all lies ,propaganda at its best,Your government removed the true figures that I saw with my own eyes and replaced it with some other table ,go to the Democracy now website look up Avi Shlaim and Cast lead there the world can hear the truth about the figures on rockets fired into Israel from Gaza,not your version of the truth but the truth from your government

Is telling lies about Israel solely because it is a Jewish state, anti-semitic? Although all anti-zionists MAY not be ati-semites, certainly ALL anti-semites are anti-zionsists.

The record is very clear. Hamas HAD cut their rockets down to exactly the level Travers said. This was true right up until ISRAEL broke the cease-fire first, which triggered Hamas's Christmas response. Israel then launched their full offensive under the context that Hamas's rockets launched in response to Israel breaking the Cease-fire was their justification to attack. Smart people like Travers understand that Israel violated the cease-fire on purpose as the FIRST act of war in order to force a Hamas response. The Israeli violation was a trick to justify a ground assault. Travers clearly starts the clock on Israeli aggression at the point Israel violated the cease fire. Therefore the Hamas Christmas rocket response isn't counted as "before the Gaza War", because the clock started on the Gaza war the minute Israel violated the cease-fire, not when Israel started Phase 2, the pre-planned land assault. Unfortunately the folks here have fallen for the trick too.

"Mohamed al-Dura and the family blown up on the beach in Gaza... as has already been proven" You cant counter one lie with two of your own. PROVE that either of your claims are "proven". "as has already been proven" ChanahS Though Israel has disputed the killing as well as the beach massacre, on neither issue has it ever been proven that the IDF were not to blame. IDF whitewash and outlandish documentaries are not proof. Its not as if the IDF are averse to the killing of children is it? Remember the young schoolgirl in the notorious case of the Israeli captain who in October 2004 fired two bullets at point blank range into the head of a 13-year-old Palestinian schoolgirl, while she was lying on the ground already injured, and then, after starting to walk away, turned back to riddle her body with at least 20 more bullets, including seven to her head. The officer was subsequently acquitted of all charges, received hefty monetary compensation from the State and a promotion in his rank. Only recently we have the accounts of female IDF soldiers and more blatant child killing and other routine abuses: "A female Border Guard officer in Jenin spoke of an incident in which a nine-year-old Palestinian, who tried to climb the fence, failed, and fled ? was shot to death: "They fired? when he was already in the territories and posed no danger. The hit was in the abdomen area, they claimed he was on a bicycle and so they were unable to hit him in the legs." http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3841480,00.html

Most suprising that Goldstone did not invite George Galloway, that model of 'fair and balanced' views and actions on all things Israel, to participate in his traiterous report.

Dear Natalie All palestinians are thinking like you? And do you think that all readers believe your propaganda?

Hamas has fired several rockets in the past weeks. Of course Goldstone is on a speaking tour. Like looking for Waldo.

The cease fire started june or july ,Hamas did their very best to stop all rockets getting launched,no more than 2 or 3 rockets a month were fired from gaza but not by hamas.Israel broke the cease fire around the end of november by raiding Gaza and killing 6 hamas militants,then the rockets started due to Israel murdering Hamas members.These figures on rocket firing were avalible from the Israeli goverment until castlead then the government withdrew the figures for propaganda purposes to justify war crimes. Jewish hero and historian Avi Shlaim of Oxford Uni UK can coroberate What I say, So yes the Irish man is more than likley correct in what he says

First, there was very little rocket fire before Israel began strikes against Gaza in the months leading up to 'Cast Lead.' Look up the figures for June through September, for example. Secondly, the Colonel refers to rockets fired by Hamas, not rockets fired in general. Finally, Israel had 'cleverly' suggested that she would resume honoring the ceasefire on the Friday before she began her onslaught -- and the next day, Hamas did turn off the tap on the rockets. Israel has -- as usual -- constructed an elaborate mythology around 'Cast Lead,' the gist of which is that she was only defending herself. The truth is somewhat different.

Why am I not surprised. The Irish have a long history of anti-Israel stances. The PLO were trained by the IRA for years. The ex President who headed the UN Human Rights Council was systematically biased against Israel and now we have this clown with his idiotic statements. We should remind the Irish and the world who they sympathised with during WW II.

Again we see the the attempt of the Israel-can-do-no-wrongers to revise history - Hamas offered to continue the cease-fire and Israel attacked and killed six Palestinians knowing there would be a reaction. Hence the pretext for a war with the elections impeding.

"I know 12,000 sounds cool and 30,000 even cooler but when you consider that real number of rockets was a little more than a tenth of that claimed by Dan #59[big boaster] and a third of that claimed by dan minor [#41], you do wonder what else is being grossly exaggerated."

next time around, i can only hope Israel will act like the Americans and Russians

Iran is a political country with a synthesis of groups, as is Israel. The attempt by one group in Israel (or Iran) to use references to biblical characters (e.g. Amalek) in order to further material goals is disgusting. The corrupt band of phony rabbis (or mullahs) are being exposed. Siding with them, as you are, is unwise.

absolutely no comparaison! the "movies" you refered to claimed lifes of innocent children by israeli fire. you remind me of a proverb that says, no one is more blind thant he who does not want to see.

Even if "only" two Hamas rockets had hit the Negev a month before the war? What about the thousands of Kassams and mortars that hit Sderot and neigbouring Kibuzzim since years? I have been in Sderot two years ago, I saw damaged roof tops, saw empty streets because people were afraid to go out, spoke with traumatized schoolchildren and their teachers, saw the fortified classrooms to which the children had to run in the few seconds after the sirens had announced another rocket hit... Has Travers ever been to Sderot and has he ever spoken to the people there, people that were for years under attack, has he seen the kids that could not play outside in the sunshine because a few seconds were not enough to run for a public shelter...... Gretel, from Germany .

The "Israeli government" and it's proxies have launched an immense public relations blitz against Goldstone, ranging from websites like goldstonereport.org to high level interventions in policy meetings that discuss issues derived from the report. The pro-Goldtone camp has no clear "government" behind it. Even Iran media reports on Goldstone are 'restrained'. The effect is clear. A widening of anti-Israel base from the political ground up, and a weakening of pro-Israel support from the political top down. the question. If Israeli strategists have missed this, do you imagine it is possible that they missed something bigger?

"Travers rejects the idea that Israel launched the offensive in Gaza on December 27, 2008, as an act of self-defense in response to Hamas rockets. " Anshel Pfeffer has carefully worded his article, but it is misleading. As far as I can tell the "facts" are June 2008 - 87 rockets July 2008 - 1 rockets August 2008 - 8 rockets September 2008 - 1 rockets October 2008 - 2 rockets November 2008 - 126 rockets The average July - October is 3. It looks like Travers knows his facts,

Chris Linthwaite: "They paid the Conservatives £30 million last year, in return Cameron has pledged his full support for Israel." Thanks for this information mate, that's yet another reason to vote Tories

of heavy butt-kicking by Israel for a purpose of regrouping , smuggling more explosives and continue the terror, while scoring points with ignorant and enemies of Israel . Look into the history of at least eight years .

Anyone can pickup a haaretz newspaper dating from back then, and will see that doezens of rockets were fired at Israel, just 2 days after the cease-fire. Israel responded to the sudden increase from 0 to 80 rockets in 2 days! Goldstone and his co-author are nothing but liars, unable to even write a correct report.

It is the Arabs who stole Jewish land and pogroms. It is the arabs who refused peace. It is the arabs who destroyed their economy. It is the arabs who are resisting peace. Good luck with resisting peace and the truth. 100 years of lies doesnt change anything. 80% of the land for Arabs, less than 20% for Jews. Why does Hamas have a charter callingfor killing Jews? Why does Wakf desecrate Temple Mount, holy of holies. Why do arabs claim east Jerusalem which was Jewish until made Judenrein under Arab rule when they attacked Israel. Your logic is backwards, hurts peace, and is an insult to the truth and history.

I know 12,000 sounds cool and 30,000 even cooler but when you consider that real number of rockets was a little more than a tenth of that claimed by Dan #59[big boaster] and a third of that claimed by dan minor [#41], you do wonder what else is being grossly exaggerated. Now Israel on the other hand can pound out artillery shells at the rate of over a thousand a week into Gaza and that was BEFORE Cast Lead was even a twinkle in the eye of a rabid zionist war lover. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4910810.stm I`m just happy you weren`t there when one of THEM landed...keep safe!

I know leprechauns that are more believable than Travers! With report writers like him, who needs the fairytale genre?

Just what book of ethics does that hail from ChanahS? 'You tell a lie and I'll tell two.' On both the al-Dura case and the Beach massacre you are telling lies. Put up you PROOF "as has already been proven" and not IDF claims.

Believing Dore Gold's spin is like believing Dick Cheney's or Glenn Beck's spin. You have to be pretty gullible. Oh Yes, John D Rockefeller really was a Stalinist and New Russia man, Beck told me so. Who knows what the original statements were; Haaretz and Dore Gold won't tell you. To listen to some here, you'd think Sderot was inside the Kursk Bulge and that they were eating caviar on the Gaza Riviera without a care in the world except to launch MLRS attacks between helpings. Wasn't Dore Gold one of the planners of the coup that brought Hamas to power in Gaza? I know, Elliott Abrams and Dick Cheney and George Bush should share some credit.

Oh Roo, I hope you are not in the business of research or jounalism. Your staement about how many rockets Israel fired into gaaza has nothing to do with anything. A military response to terror can have no boundary...it is Israel's right to eliminate all threats as deemed necessary! Apologists like you who make excuses for the terror loving palestinians only make things worse for them...you justify their actions! Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, N. Korea are all terror supporting entities and should be dealt with as such. Sorry!

Mr. Traver's report has about as much credibility as that of the existence of the Irish Lepricorn

why should there be no jewish lobby in great britain and elsewhere? there are so many various lobbies on this earth. a lobby is something very normal, first of all in democracies. a lobby stands up in favour of a special topic. be it anti-smoking, be it children, be it nature, be it homeless people, etc. however, only the jewish lobby is condemned. why? by the way: what about the big big muslim lobby in great britain influencing britain's policy in britain and abroad? there are lots of prominent british members of this muslim lobby who raise their voices in favour of the muslims and who collect money for using it for the muslims (or perhaps also for themselves). one of those prominent members of the muslim lobby is e. g. george galloway. so, stop blaming the jewish lobby because the jewish lobby has the same rights to stand up for its case as have other lobbies.

" because a few bottle rockets landed in Israel" Dorit Binsain (2), Yuval Abebah (4), Afik Zahavi (4), Mordechhai Yoesepov (49) Dana Galkawitz (22) Ella Abukasis (17) Faina Slutzker. This is a list of Israelis killed by your "few Bottle Rockets" As an American Citizen you are a supporter of terrrorism and the same cult of death that Massacred thousands of your countrymen in 9/11. Massacred hundreds of your Marines in Beirut and today continue to kill your troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Next time you fly and have to take your shoes off, stand in line and go through security think of who you so strongly support.

I don't know what all the other arguments about, but a simple fact of the matter is that on December 24th 2008 more than 80 rockets were fired by Hamas into Israel, three day before Israel's operation began. Its appauling that Desmond Travers, one of the four authors of the Goldstone report is unaware of this. And further rejects that Israel launched Operation Cast Iron in a response to this rocket fire. 80 rockets on xmas eve. And apparently Mr. Travers justifies Hamas methods, for it seems he is unware of what happens on xmas eve.

or at least started to know the truth about the Israeli government and its oppression towards the Palestinians. And yes they are "A few, short ranged, ineffective rockets". Wake up people and show the world some humanity. Stupid people are those who keep doing the same stuff waiting for new different results; if u wanna gain the world's respect, change ur attitudes and stop oppressing the innocent children and civilians. Guys, the region is going through a critical time, and we need to be clever enough to handle it. the only way out is through real peace between the two parties. Peace

Ahmadinejad Iran loves to wipe out Israel from the face of the earth, and Hamas is a proxy of Iran which mean that Israel has the right to attack Hamas of whether Hamas fired rockets or not. Hamas does not care about its people. It only cares in destroying Israel.

With a proven liar the caliber of this racist piece of garbage managing the Goldstone "investigation" and "report", it is clear that the outcome was predetermined and faked. "He doesn't believe Israeli photographs" but instead bases his "conclusions" on hearsay and rumors from Hamas thugs. This kind of UN "Human Rights" Commission conduct shows that they never actually renounced their "Zionism is Racism" mission, required for the US to resume its funding. The funding should now be cut off, since the US Congress has evaluated and denounced "Goldstone" as the fraud it clearly is. And hardly surprising that Travers, an Irish colonel, would be at the heart of this bigotry - as a citizen of the only declared ally of Nazi Germany not to be occupied and forcibly de-nazified after WW2. We now see the result of allowing Ireland to participate in UN activities.

Natalie, first, about ineffective rockets. Parts of Israeli population used to spend quite a lot of time in shelters and some of them have been killed/wounded. Would you tolerate such a life in San-Francisco if Mexicans have decided to take their land back from you? Don't you think Israeli wars are more justified and arguably conducted better (with more respect to civilians' life) than US's? Second, look back - it was Arabs idea to break Jowish spirit. So far it didn't succeed much. Maybe Israel should be never created in the Holy land; after all, the party who benefited the most from it's creation was Soviet Union. But it has been done - let's find some way to stop Arab's illusion that Jews can be thrown back to the sea.

Renny....you are SO correct!!!

I have never read such thinly veiled and biased clap trap, that's sole purpose appears to be aimed at making Israel the bogy man of the region by ignoring the fact that groups such as HAMAS are working towards Israel's demise by fair means or foul! There are none so blind Mr. Travers than those that either cannot or refuse to see and such blindness makes a maockery of the Goldstone report

For myself, I just want to know, did Hamas and Islamic Jihad fire 8,000 rockets into Southern Israel? How many were fired in the days prior to the invasion. Two, Twenty, a hundred? What is the truth? Travers questions the allegation that Islam is not the Religion of Peace. Has he actually read the Koran, not that the Old Testament doesn't have its fair share of massacres ordered by G-d. Has he heard or does he know of countries such as Indonesia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, East Timor or Afghanistan. Does he think hundreds of Muslims are not dying in these countries every week.? I just want to know the truth, not from a Settler, nor from A Gazan and not from anyone with an agenda other than the Truth. My question is therefore directed to the handful of people here, who genuinely seek Peace.

You can do what you want, Israel will be always the only guilty, and always wrong. So, let these people taking together at the UN or wherever they want. And let's study the wonderful Thora, only G-od can and will help us for this final countdown.

What nonsense this fool is spewing. It is typical of the anti-Israel rhetoric that so often emanates from Ireland.If he believes that one one or two Hamas rockets were fired before the Gaza war, then he should live in Sderot for one year and see what is like to be the victim of rocket and mortar attacks. And he should bring that sanctimonious fool Goldstone with him.

In the full interview, in parts not quoted by HaAretz, Travers also makes the wild accusation that he belives Israel regulary kidnapped and executed Irish Peacekeeping Soldiers serving with the UN in Lebanon in the 1970s through the 1990's and Travers explains this is supposedly why the Irish people universaly hate Israel and support the Palestinians. Ireland lost about 50 soldiers in Lebanon over the years and Travis belives Israel or the SLA at Israel's orders murdered all 50 of them. Since Travis is admitting he hated and held the most extreme prejudice imaginable against Israel for decades before the Gaza War, blaming the IDF for murdering dozens of his friends, is not any report he would write obviously going to be biased and unfair?

Your mean like the movies on the boy Mohamed al-Dura and the family blown up on the beach in Gaza ostensibly by Israelis? Becuse those were the real blue movies - as has already been proven. Why don't you prove that rocket attackets on Sderot didn't take place?

why should there be no jewish lobby in great britain and elsewhere? there are so many various lobbies on this earth. a lobby is something very normal, first of all in democracies. a lobby stands up in favour of a special topic. be it anti-smoking, be it children, be it nature, be it homeless people, etc. however, only the jewish lobby is condemned. why? by the way: what about the big big muslim lobby in great britain influencing britain's policy in britain and abroad? there are lots of prominent british members of this muslim lobby who raise their voices in favour of the muslims and who collect money for using it for the muslims (or perhaps also for themselves). one of those prominent members of the muslim lobby is e. g. george galloway. so, stop blaming the jewish lobby because the jewish lobby has the same rights to stand up for its case as have other lobbies.

Gee, that's not too many...just a few...not really enough to warrant a response...I'm just happy you weren't there when one of them landed...keep safe!

We could agree to split the difference only most of the posts around Cast Lead were saying 8,000. A story that grows in the telling, me thinks. dan #19 says12,000 Dan at #37 says 30,000.Real figure:under 4,000 We could agree to split the difference only most of the posts around Cast Lead were saying 8,000. A story that grows in the telling, me thinks. Meanwhile over at the Jewish Policy Center they have a comprehensive list of rockets fired from Gaza year on year. 4 in 2001, 35 in 2002, 155 in 2003, 281 in 2004 and so on... Anyways, the sum total up to the end of 2008 or at least to the start of Cast Lead was...wait for it: 3918 Yes, approximately one tenth the number claimed by Dan [mines bigger than yours] of #31 Though the figures are approximate since no definitive count apparently exists the source for the figures given is: The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/prr/history.php It should be borne in mind that Israel fired nearly as many shells into Gaza asfired by Hamas over 7 years during a two week period alone! In April of 2006. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4910810.stm

Your account of events in Gaza reads like the typical mush one can tune into on Fox news for dummies. Israel has treated Gazans like animals for decades, not just since the fireworks started in 2001. during the firework era they have meted out punishment like it was confetti, not caring upon whom it falls. If you treat people like shit they invariably behave like shits. Shame about Milwaukee, they used to have some decent people running things there once upon a time. Real lefties, in the days before Americans got lobotomized by McCarthyism and Neo Liberal claptrap.

if anyone can quote sources (pref. w/links) to back up claims of how many rockets were actually fired it would be helpful to this debate

Why is it that people believe liars instead of true facts. For 8 years Hamas sent rockets to Israel and that was shown on TV continuously. I cannot understand the world of today that listens to terrorists. If the Palestinians hadn't continuously refused to compromise and instead of accepting a country of their own with not everything they demand as we won't get everything we want I cannot understand. They want to destroy us more than they want a country of their own, that is the only explanation.

" A few short range ineffective rockets" Natalie, do yourself a favor and move to Sderot for six months. Then tell us what you think about the short range ineffective rockets. You are a joke.

if there were any real doubts that it was rubbish and fabricated you have cleared those doubts for all of us ! irish whimsy speaks again !1

... and his Leftist co-travelers think sending rockets daily against another country should have no consequences. Just keep giving them food, fuel, electricity, and accept rockets in return, forever, because, ... ummmm... they are wretched? Sort of "White Man's Burden" on steroids. Newsflash: Rocketry is not diplomacy; it is an act of war, and must be dealt with as such.

... and his Leftist co-travelers think sending rockets daily against another country should have no consequences. Just keep giving them food, fuel, electricity, and accept rockets in return, forever, because, ... ummmm... they are wretched? Sort of "White Man's Burden" on steroids. Newsflash: Rocketry is not diplomacy; it is an act of war, and must be dealt with as such.

Some 50 rockets have been launched from Gaza in recent days, after the killing of three Hamas members by Israel. A six-month ceasefire in Gaza between Israel and Hamas ended last week. In other words: six-month ceasefire ended, Israel attacked Hamas, Hamas retaliated, serving as pretext for Cast Lead.

Please don't confuse anyone with facts. Guesstimates of "something like two" and refusing to believe photographs (unless, of course, they were doctored by Arabs to show more smoke over Beirut) should be good enough for any UN report. Frankly, I am somewhat dismayed that the UN would waste money actually sending anyone out to find out what happened, when the report could have been finished before the shooting even started.

Abtalyon at 57 has helfully provided the figures: "In October 2008 2 rockets and 5 mortar shells were fired from Gaza" I hate to spoil anyone's party here, but I think it's reasonable to assume that what Travers meant is that prior to the collapse of the ceasefire that preceded Cast Lead, 'something like two' rockets were fired. He is under the impression that a renewed ceasefire could have been arranged if Cast Lead had not happened. Now whether he's right on that, is a different question, but this surely has to be what me means by 'something like two.' The coincidence is too great. It's most likely a slip of the tongue in an interview. It does not of itself, in any way necessarily invalidate the Goldstine report.