Geographers propose transfer of Israeli Arab towns to PA

Rami..How sad it will be if Israel (and the PA) sacrifice multiculturalism. I agree that Arab Political leadership (and more recently religious leadership) has contributed to the problem. Palestinian Israelis must understand that the crude demographic "solution" is not racial..it is out of fear, a fear that may be too understandable. And Jewish Israelis must learn to address that fear, by also squarely looking in the mirror and ask what have we, as a State and as individuals, done to make Arab Israelis feel at home? Employment opportunity? Housing in "Jewish" cities? Development of industrial zones? New towns? Joint efforts in education?

Rami Kapara! Thanks for someone who lives in Israel or the Palestinian Territories actually writing in these insane forums. It always seems to be people looking in from the outside telling Israelis/Palestinians what to think and do. Rami, I respect your opinions and your place in Israeli and Palestinian society. We Jews have to do a better job of making Palestinians with Israeli citizenship feel more included. Israel is a country for all its citizens. Not just for the jews.

... Isreali Arabs should be entitled to take 20% of Isreali territory with them, all other solutions would be a continuation of the land theft.

Apartheid, like the Hebrew word Hafrada, means separation. Separate but equal is the idea, but, obviously, never the reality. Spend a little time in the West Bank, and the FACTS will become apparent quickly. Racist apartheid is not good for Israel, not good for security, and not good for the Jewish soul. For Israel's sake alone, the occupation must end, and soon. To Jake: Israel's dogged all right, but it doesn't care about American interests except where they dovetail with its own. Look at all the Israeli spy scandals, the AIPAC case, etc. Israel's been milking America and using it as a protective shield against international law and the rules everyone else is supposed to follow in this supposedly post-colonial world. America's been using Israel as a military outpost, and our Christian fundamentalists use it as a Messiah magnet, and have no love for Jews. It's not a healthy relationship at all.

There is absolutely no equivalence between removing illegal settlers from Gush Katif and removing entire Arab towns and cities from Israel. I'm not saying I'm pro or con, just that there's absolutely no equivalence. The Gush Katif settlers were placed there illegally by a belligerent occupier, and their removal was merely a tactical move by Israel to comply selectively with international law so that they could steal more land from the West Bank without being bothered. Palestinian towns and cities in Israel have been legal inhabitants for centuries -- long before Israel was even founded. Nathanel of Jerusalem: If the same rules apply to everyone, then 70% of Israelis should be driven out of their homes, their property stolen, like the Palestinians were in 1948. Be careful what you wish for. As for the South Africa analogy, it's pretty damn apt. Israel has different laws for different people based on their religion inside the West Bank and East Jerusalem. What more do you need?

Israel should remain united. One nation. Period. Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim and Christian...a land with only Israelis, without regard to race, ethnicity or religious orientation. AMEN! PEACE! :)

The transfer of arab populated territories within the green line sounds like an interesting proposal with Israel retaining as much West Bank land with settlers as possible. My question is how many Arabs live in those towns near the green line? By how much could Israel reduce its non-Jewish population? After such a transfer, including Israeli withdrawal from most but not all of the West Bank could Israel's Jewish population increase to 90%? 85%? What would it be?

I shall limit my views just to the triangle . An Interesting idea -but should not be done by force - surely by vote of those involved. The rest of Isreal has to take note of the result, thus once in for all those in the Triangle can decide their destiny.

I can imagine that from an idealistic and radical-left point of view the proposal of territorial exchange between Arab towns within Israel and Jewish settlements within the West Bank could be regarded as nationalistic, or even racist. But indeed it is not. Wasn't the original map of Israel designed on a similar basis? It is a direct reference to Woodrow Wilson ideal statement of Peoples self-determinacy. Multiculural or multiethnic state has turned out to be a difficult and dangerous task in Europe; jus think about the Belgian tensions between francophone and dutch speaking communities, and nowadays is going worse and worse with arabs living in France and in the Netherlands. So how can it work better in Israel, where tensions and hates are even sharper? I think that this proposal, although drastic, should not be disergarded.

Sorry ben, my comments were for william. Sorry got caught up in the moment.

Ben, I would like to keep my tax money. How do we vote you into office so that you refuse in excess of $5 Billion dollars a year from the US. Of course how would you be able to afford your blood feud with Palestine if you did. Obviously, you are quicker with your keyboard than with your mind. Ben, please use your Israeli vote to elect an official that would refuse our money, because with all your lobbyists in Washington, we can't convince Bush to cut your aid. Help us out will you. Thanks.

To lump all arabs together and say they are no good, who cares what they think, get rid of the whole lot is reminiscent of the rascist garbage spewed by ignorant americans during the civil rights era. To think the land of Israel, who all Americans look up to, could harbor such narrow-minded, ignorant, murderers is a cold and chilling thought and makes me wonder why the US would support such insanity. I could very well lump all Israelis into a group and say they are power hungry, land grabbing, wealth stealing morons who deserve every bomb set off in every Israeli town. But that would make me as ignorant as Trumpeldor, but I live in an america where we treat blacks, latinos, arabs and even jews, equally. If you would change your preconcieved notions, you might, God forbid, find peace.

1. Tibi claims that Israeli Arabs should be considered as Palestinians, yet now doesn't want them to be part of the Palestinian project of self-determination. You can't have it both ways ya Ahmed! 2. Yet fine, why not have a referendum in such towns? Say to them: you have often expressed solidarity with Palestinians, now you have a choice. So now make it. You can be part of the Palestinian state. Or you can choose to be foreigners to the Palestinians, and remain Israelis. It is up to you, but choose wisely. 3. Tibi's idea of declaring the Arab population a "national minority" as in Canada is sound. It clarifies things. The Jews are Israel,s national majority, and Israel has a special character defined by its duty to the Jewish people. Yet Israel also has national minorities -- Druze, Bedouin, Arabs, etc -- and has a duty to them too. It shows that having a Jewish and democratic state are perfectly compatible!

The reason is because in Arab culture identity is very localised. It is all about your local village, your clan, your hereditary land, the place where your ancestors were buried. Arabs are not a wandering tribe who have lived everywhere. They move with great reluctance. The whole idea of nation state is very recent in the Arab world and not really a deep part of the culture. Palestinians care first and foremost about protecting their homes. Whether that is achieved by being part of a majority Palestinian state or via Israeli citizenship is a lesser issue for them - whatever works.

Whether I agree with this suggested transfer of LAND or not, you have twisted the meaning of the proposal. For starters, I assume that you have no problem with the PA ethnically cleansing Jews from Gush Etzion (as the Arab armies did in 1948) you just object to Arab's being asked to move. Secondly, no one is suggesting a "population transfer", in fact the suggestion is that Jews and Arabs stay exactly where they are and that the transfer is of sovereignty over the relevent areas. Please read the article again.

No, Aby, I would not mind if America were to become a mostly non-white country. In fact, that seems to be happening right now, and you don't here any mainstream Americans arguing that we should "transfer" black people out of our nation. Democracies don't work that way. One person, one vote, everyone is equal. That is how democracy works, and that is the sort of American value I want my tax $ to support in the mideast. If you diasagree with that, fine--but give me my money back!

MK Tibi wants Israel to adopt the Candinan model of minority /majority rights as Canada did. Well the down side to the canadian model is every minority regardless of where they came from can continue to be what they were before they got to Canada. This means in the long term more divisiveness, more fights as each groupo caries on their traditional hatreds as if they were back in the home land. Canada has failed because it is a mosaic, where there is no Canadian identity, Canadian government goes overboard to appease the minority at the e4xpense of teh majority. The US model of assimilation is far superiro Come to the US and be an american where op[portunity abounds and you become wehat you make of yourself. Canadas model will only mean more violence, divisiveness and stupidity which Israel has enopugh of now given Tibi's comments

You want a real solution for peace? Keep the triangle region and get rid of those who denounce the State. Let the rest live as Israeli Arabs, in equality. Leave some Jewish areas in Palestine and let them receive Palestinian citizenship, and be equal citizens as Palestinian Jews. Now, let each State relish in the diffrence among their communities that enrich their individual States, rather than trying to separate and allow deadly rumors about each other fester unabetted.

Better that your tax dollars go to something more closer to you, like ineffective affirmative action, providing legal support and university degrees for murderers in jail, and security forces stationed in high school systems around the country to keep intolerant kids from killing each other.

If you are finished with your diatribe, then please examine the facts. This 'iniative' was an independent discussion with no links to the Israeli government, and it proposed of a territorial EXCHANGE, not forcing Arabs to leave their homes. Before you a condemn Israel as a "little South Africa", you had better be aware of the FACTS and also try to find an ally for the US which is more steadfast and more dogged than Israel.

I can understand your reservations only if you fear being cut-off of other Arab population within the so called green-line. Otherwise, I foresee a better life and a better status for Palestinian Arabs in a Palestinian ruled entity. A true Palestinian would never boycott living with his bretherns, who propably also need his assistance in building a new Palestine. In a new democratic Palestine, you will never be looked at as a 2.nd class citizen. Israel's democratic system applies to you as a Palestinian only partially!

I do not agree witht he comparison. thereis two main differences. 1. The Israeli arabs did not forcefully occupy and confiscate the land they live on, they have been there for generations, long before the country was established. 2. The Jews in Gush Katif and any other place in the west bank don't have to move, they can stay where they are and live in the Palestinain state under palestinian rule.

Ben, Ask your self in the near future if Black minority would be the majority of your country would you think the same? We've the fear that in the near future we are going to be minorty. I am also get pretty sick of naive guys like you. Aby

Nathan, That what you might get from the Israeli media, but it?s not true. The majority of Israeli Arabs loves their Israel and are loyal citizens. All surveys show that on March many will not vote to the Arab parties to the point where some Arab parties are at the point of extinction

I agree to what you say, on condition that Israel starts to evacuate the Triangle area and ends with the fully evacuation of the West Bank, including the illegal large settlement blocks and the full compensation of what was by force from the Palestinians in the year 1948. Then and only then may peace appears real!

I think it is fair solution for both nations to swap lands including population such as Turkey-Greece or Pakistan-India. Furthermore, I know many Israeli Arabs do not want to live in PA because of harsh economic condition and probably lack of political freedom. It is time for Israeli Arabs to re-think about their royalty to Israeli government instead of hatred comments. Don't delay the swap project. Hurry up! Sorry.

Without a transfer of a majority of Israel's Arab citizens to a future Palestinian State, Israel has no future as a Jewish state.

In any other country, the U.S, Russia, France, etc--- this proposal would be slammed as atrocious, racist beyond description. Just imagine if the U.S tried to kick black people into another country for the purpose of maintaining a white majority. Just imagine! I'm getting pretty darn sick and tired of Israel, and all of my tax money that's going to this little south Africa in the Mideast. I really don't want any more of my hard earned $ going to a country that would even propose this kind of a population transfer. American dollars should support American values!

If one day the two state solution comes alive, would'nt be better for the Arabs to live under the the authority of Palestine State as majority instead of living in Israel as a minority. We are imigrating from all over the world. Why don't you? I wonder any Arab will leave Israel and imigrate to PA. I think no one. Aby

I do not believe that handing over of Israeli Arab towns to the Palestinian Authority, however tempting, will resolve any of Israel's problems. Quite the opposite, it will compromise Israel's security and take it back to the days when the 'Arab Liberation Army' entered from Syria and Lebanon and used various Arab towns in Galillee as a base for attacking Jewish towns, against the wishes of many of the local mukhtars. Fawzi Kaukji's army that occupied Nazareth was made up of local irregulars, Iraqis and mercenaries of many nationalities, including Germans, Yugoslavs, and even a few British deserters. The Palestinization of Israeli Arab towns is likely to be both unpopular with the Arabs themselves and harmful to long-term Jewish interests.

This idea is so completely logical that it should sail right through the knesset. The Arabs are constantly complaining that they live under the "zionist jackboot". Giving this area to the PA in exchange for the settlement blocs is absolutely brilliant.

you speak sensibly but i fear the majority of israeli palestinians hate the state with a vengeance.israel must cede the palestinian towns and villages.

the first town to go should be ahmed tibi's. the whole idea is exactly what israel needs.i hope it is done as soon as possible.

Good post. In a parallel situation, I remember when the black community in the US began speaking as a singular defiant group and effectively alienated themselves from the rest of society. Maybe good for their moral and self-confidence, but it reversed alot of the headway they made in equality. This happened in the 1980's and early 1990's. They had to fight hard to make up ground and continue. I hope the Israeli Arabs do not make the same mistake. You have a huge section of Israeli Jews who support your equality, why are you guys not utilizing this major resource? I also blame the MKs that represent you. The are doing your community a HUGE dis-service. They are in the perfect position to create change - inside a Jewish democratic government, speaking with an Arab voice. Yet, the only words they speak are denouncing of the State and visiting enemies. If this doesn't agree with you, then you need to stand up and say something. Silence is not golden in this case.

Way to go Rami, hope more realistic people will rise.

when USA has no more economic interests (read oil) in ME, problem is solved. They take their hands out and Israel is finished. What Israel do or not do, has no importance. In the long run. After one generation (25 years) Semites live back where they always lived. Occupiers, who survived, are scattered in the wind...

Guess he is afraid of being ruled by his violent Palestinian brothers, instead of being left free to play his games in democratic Israel by the Jews?

I wonder what kind of equality he's looking for for his Arab brethren - Many traitors against the State have come from this triangle region and colluded with Hizbollah. His other Arab MK, who just happens to live in that region too, stated unequivocally "I will never recognize the State of Israel". These dont' exactly sound like people who even WANT to be a part of Israel, so why the fuss Tibi? Could it be that Tibi ALSO lives in teh Triangle region and would be ZERO in the PA government?

Have a referendum in these Arab towns. If the majority is for joining the Arab states - good for them. If the opposite is true it will be a good PR for Israel. In any case, I think the transfer of towns is a good idea. Israel can permit a small number of inhabitants to remain in Israel if they prove their loyalty to the state, such as service in IDF.

Thats the problem with these little triangle land swap proposals - you can relinquish the land but there is no garuantee the people will go with it. The last time I checked Israeli citizens have freedom of movement within Israel - how many Arab Israelis would still be in those towns the day before the handover? If Israel really wants a land swap that reduces it's Arab population it should concentrate first on the quarter million non-citizens in East Jerusalem

ISRAEL CAN NOT EXIST AS A JEWISH STATE WITH A FIFTH COLUMN. THIS IS ACCEPTED NOW IN ISRAEL. NOW THE DEBATE WILL FOCUS ON DEFENSIBLE BORDERS. MOSHE YALLON AT THE SECURITY CONFERANCE SAID, ISRAEL NEEDS MAXIMUN TERRITORY TO PREVENT ROCKET ATTACKS. WE ARE MOVING IN THE DIRECTION OF KAHANE.

Rami, good that we hear some selfcritical Arab voice. You know better than most Jews that unless you cannot critisize openly and unpunished your own leaders, there won't be any progress. But you have to understand that once there is support for a removal of Jewish population within a predominately Arab area, one cannot contradict removal (moving borders) of Arab towns within areas of a Jewish majority. Same rules for everyone. Simply fo that reason Um-El Fahem might "democratically" share Gush Katif's fate.

It is the Arabs that are unifying the Jews. You will not be better off without them. Without them the Jews would turn on each other, Ashkenazi against Sephardic, religious against secular, whites against blacks, etc?..

As an Israeli Arab who loves his country, I?m against this. I also like to add, even though the true motive for it is racial, and the true reason is demographics. The Arab public and it?s leaders are also partly to blame, they are the ones that with their statements an sometimes actions alienated the Arab public from the Jewish majority. Statements that were used by ?undemocratic Jews? to discredit the Arab public; and made such ideas music to the ears of the Jewish population. The arab public should stop blindly following their leaders, It's about time they wake up and choose a leadership that can provide them with a better future.

Who cares if people from Taibe or umm el farehm disagree? Umm el farem is known as an islamist hotbed? The more we get rid of arabs,the better we will be

It is an idea that should be explored and debated by the inhabitants of the potentially involved towns. How many want to renounce their Israeli citizenship for Palestinian citizenship? My guess is very few.