Exam shows Israel ranks 39th out of 57 in scholastic performance

ka wrote: "I`m not saying that this is not complicated for us and for them - but they are hardly weak and vulnerable.More hate-filled, obstinate, proud, vengeful and totally brutal. If they were weak and vulnerable but willing to talk, make peace and compromise they would have a country called Palestine next to Israel and would have given up their "weak and vulnerable" fight to destroy us. " The majority of Palestinians are passive and interested in peace. Unless they are devout buddhists or similar, any group of people who is subjected to murder, theft, torture, rape, etc.. will breed a certain number of angry violent militant types. In saying so, I wish not ill for either side because we are all one people. My post was a response to teachers' one-sided unrepresentative response. Cheers

ka wrote: "Can you please verify the nation? Is there a nation called Palestine? This so-called imaginary nation is `hosting `us? Wrong again." Wikipedia definition: "A nation is a form of cultural or social community" It is not what Churchill or Bush or Sharon or the UN or anyone else determines a state Now the historical demographics of the disputed nation: 1851 4% Jewish, 96% non-Jewish 1900 8% Jewish, 92% Non-Jewish 1940 30% Jewish, 70% non-Jewish 1995 59% Jewish, 41% non-Jewish (incl. WB and Gaza) Forgetting about the name Palestine for a moment, it is obvious there was a state which was shared by many (including Jews) which unnaturally became a "state for Jews" continued...

You wrote: Indeed, Israelis should stop killing the weak and vulnerable citizens of the nation who is involuntary hosting its existence. Can you please verify the nation? Is there a nation called Palestine? This so-called imaginary nation is 'hosting 'us? Wrong again. This is Israel. The Palestinians are a myth because their 'nation' as you call it is nothing but a web of words weaved to destroy Israel. I'm not saying that this is not complicated for us and for them - but they are hardly weak and vulnerable.More hate-filled, obstinate, proud, vengeful and totally brutal. If they were weak and vulnerable but willing to talk, make peace and compromise they would have a country called Palestine next to Israel and would have given up their "weak and vulnerable" fight to destroy us. So stop the bull - okay. Re social skills - yours need some fine tuning.

"I think the argument that you missed was that without the tests scores of the less capable Israeli Arabs, who pray more than study, the scores would be much higher." How does your statement fit in the constant conjuring up of muslimization of Europe by immigration and birth rates? Now, "suddenly", the Arab percentage is responsible for Israel's bad ranking - but the muslim percentage in Germany did not prevent our better results. The coherence of your argument is remarkably lacking.

"A test only measures what it`s designed to measure." And when any test, study, research or survey gives positive results for Israel, you would doggedly defend its scientific, objective, neutral value. You are indeed easy to figure out.

I fail to understand the posts on this issue. This issue regards the quality of education in Israel. This has little to nothing to do with the Middle East conflict aside from the fact that children may not be able to go to school due to bombing attacks which have occurred in the South and North of the country during the last several years. I find it appalling that people have used this article to express their personal hatred whether it be directed at Arabs, Russians, or Israelis. Posts on this site would be more meaningful if they addressed approaches to improving education in Israel for all students.

"Intel, IBM, and Motorola have their largest R&D centers outside the US in Israel, ans SAP (the only German software company of some importance) has its main R&D ceneter in Israel." And the reason why? Israeli genius or wage levels? I recommend you compare the average income of a software engineer in Israel and USA. With regard to SAP being "of some importance": It is the third largest software company of the world. Its turnover in 2006 is nearly 30% of the Israeli national budget.

As a teacher in the United States I can tell you that there are two fundamental characterisitcs that can make a difference in a child's education. You need small class size and you need to pay a decent salary so you can recruit quality educators. Israel is failing abysmally in both.

Indeed, Israelis should stop killing the weak and vulnerable citizens of the nation who is involuntary hosting its existence. Great point !

Your downfall would come in the logic section since you continually fail to understand the proposition that a nation is permitted to protect itself against another nation that seeks out its vulnerable citizens and murders them.

And this test was designed to test what it shows, academic performance.Why are you always trying to explain away Israels real social issues with very techinical arguments.Israeli society might be richer for some but it is failing the majority , in large part to the occupation and the importation of american style capitalism.Dont you see it?

David, don't worry, I have spent more time in Israel than you might ever dream of.... Of course it takes only a few seconds to look into a bag (well, honestly, sometimes it takes rather "many" few seconds...:), but unfortuna- tely you forgot to mention, that before getting searched you were already waiting 5-15 minutes in a queue.... And by the way, nobody expects from you to give up your defense. But a willingness to compromise could make all those security measures unnecessary in the future. I used the word "could" with intention. But to my Swiss ears "could" still sounds much better than "won't" (if you don't compromise).

'It tests practical knowledge, social skills and the ability to solve complex problems demanding a combination of those fields.' Particularly that question about if someone is different from you, and they have something that you want, is it okay to take it from them by force? The test should allow for the fact that Israelis have different values.

This proves what I have been saying for the past 7yrs the schools here are really bad and the teachers are right to strike, however we need a higher quality of people going into teaching and paying them better inorder to improve the ablitilty of our children to do better on the next exam. It means remedial classes for failing students,longer hours and weeding out inferior teachers, smaller class sizes too!

I saw you hero on the debates.His foreign policy would endanger the whole world and america big time, he is not very realistic.Honest , but deluded.

Just need to look at the huge number of talkbacks on other Haaretz articles that relate to the conflict. Education takes a back seat, anything about the ME conflict comes first, including financially. Israel got the priorities wrong.

A test only measures what it's designed to measure.

The 'Russians' learn from the locals. They're afraid to expand and to share. They hide their passwords and don't pass on all the details needed to those they work with in order to keep their jobs safe. They're not thinkers, they're sitters.

"Based on test scores from the various sectors of the school system, without the Arabs Israel would have ranked 10th" [Ephraim] How silly. What if the other countries exclude their worst performing minorities too?! Israel performed far better in the past. It's not the Arabs that lowered the ranks, it's the Israel education system that is worsening year after year due to wrong priorities.

Ehud, with all due respect, but here in Switzer- land we have citizens of a little bit more than 140 countries.... And still we somehow managed it to reach the 16 th place (which honestly isn't too glorious either....). But I wouldn't wanna know where we would stand if our kids would grow up under the same circumstances as Israeli kids do. I know, it's not only in your hands to get out of that mess, but to a big part it is in your hands indeed. Start with it tomorrow, and the Israeli Pisa results will be (much) better next year. Guaranteed.

A. 20 minute security checks going to the supermarket??? huh?? in israel, you walk in to the store, if you have a bag the guy looks inside and that's it. B. are you implying that if we stopped defending ourselves that somehow we can save time on security check? my response is that you are right: if we stopped defending ourselves, the arabs will kill us in cold blood. dead people do not have to wait for security checks. therefore, stopping to defend ourselves against the arabs will be a great time saver.

There was a time Israel produced very smart people. As you mentioned several High Tech companies, they are based a lot on highly educated immigrants from Russia. Both is over now. No further immigrants from Russia no proper local education system. I'm afraid that the younger generation will be far less succesful in the areas you mentioned (except for those that can afford to study abroad).

A sound education system means money must be spent on something other than arms, religious fanatics and the ultra-rich. Therefore conservative governments always favor inferior education. Besides, educated people are less likely to be conservatives. Bad schools are a win/win situation for conservatives.

and how many people in these research centers were educated in Israel? 95% of them come from the States and Europe. please name one important researcher that received is high school and university degree in Israel.

"Israel thrives on her military strength, not on her intellectual potential." Israel ranks number one in patents in the field of Biotech, in Silicon valle, the second most spoken language is Hebrew.Intel, IBM, and Motorola have their largest R&D centers outside the US in Israel, ans SAP (the only German software company of some importance) has its main R&D ceneter in Israel. So dream on...The reason for the outcome of these studies (by the way Germany didn't do so well either) is among others the poor performance of the Arab students in whom Israel need to invest more, and the fact that Israel is a society with citizens from 140 different countries. It's much easier to teach homgenous groups of students from the same xenophobic Swiss background!

Haaretz is constantly harping on about the poor quality of haredi education and how it will affect their entry into the workforce. I've actually not seen that happen. But these statistics certainly support what I've seen on the street: a huge percentage of secular Israelis are factually illiterate and inarticulate. Good canon-fodder, no doubt, but not much good for anything else. In fact their abysmal PR record overseas can be directly attributed to their ignorance.

If the last ranking for Israel was 33rd out of 41, then for a pool of 57 countries, this translates to 46th. So 39th of 57 is actually an improvement! But to Haaretz, 39th must be worse than 33rd. Well, sadly, it is a reflection on math skills in the country. Repeat after me, Haaretz - "the product of the means equals the product of the extremes". (this has to do with fractional math, Haaretz). Wrong headline, should have been: "Israel's math scores improve under the leadership of the genius Yuli Tamir" [I am joking, of course].

If the Israeli kids could spend the time they are losing with security checks in front of supermarkets, malls, restaurants etc. with learning, they definitely would rank a little bit better than 39 th out 57. 20 minutes security checks everyday, means more than 2 hours every weak, means 10 hours every month, means 5 days every year. Imagine, 5 days more to learn "stuff" every year...!!!! One more reason for Israel to end this conflict (occupation) rather today than tomorrow.

I think the argument that you missed was that without the tests scores of the less capable Israeli Arabs, who pray more than study, the scores would be much higher. What percentage of the Arabic world even strives for a 21st century education? C'mon.....cut out the apartheid garbage.

"Based on test scores from the various sectors of the school system, without the Arabs Israel would have ranked 10th. Yet another argument in favor of transfer." So you admit that Israel's education system disadvantages the Arab sector. Yet another argument why Israel is called an apartheid state, isn't it?

Zionist, who only reacts to military commands and to calls for "transfer". He has even an emotional unit, which we created after the blueprints of a Merkava tank. And the consumption is only 2 falaffels per nautic mile. Who cares for PISA?

am i the only who thinks the main-page article link is only too funny: "PISA test....reveals Israeli students in 40th pleace in reading, mathematics". This is true genius - to include a typo in the title of an article discussing Israel education. Good work ha'aretz

You pay teachers far less than the average worker makes there. Perhaps you can import Palestinians from Gaza to help teach your kids. You can save even more that way.

Based on test scores from the various sectors of the school system, without the Arabs Israel would have ranked 10th. Yet another argument in favor of transfer.

Fritzi.

...the rest does not matter so much. Israel thrives on her military strength, not on her intellectual potential.