Vice Premier: Extending the settlement freeze is a honey trap
U.S. proposal on new settlement freeze in return for incentives sparks stormy meeting of ministers from Netanyahu's Likud.
By Barak Ravid, Jonathan Lis and ReutersVice Premier Moshe Ya'alon on Sunday lashed out at a new American proposal for a new three-month freeze on settlement construction on the West Bank, during a stormy meeting of ministers from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party.
"Extending the freeze is a honey trap," Ya'alon said, which "will lead us down a slippery slope and into another crisis with the American administration after three months, or perhaps even sooner."
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Construction in the settlement of Yakir after the freeze’s end last month. |
| Photo by: Nir Kafri |
The U.S. has offered to deliver 20 F-35 fighter jets to Israel, a deal worth $3 billion, asking in return for Israel to stop construction in the West Bank for 90 days, including on building work that began after the end of the first settlement moratorium on September 26. The U.S. will not ask Israel to extend the new freeze when it expires.
Netanyahu returned late last week from a five-day visit to the U.S., during which he met with Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. The Americans have repeatedly called on Israel to extend the settlement freeze, which ended in September, and the Palestinians have conditioned a return to the negotiating table upon a settlement freeze. The prime minister told Clinton at their meeting in New York on Thursday that he was "serious" about talks with the Palestinians.
The New York Times on Sunday quoted an unnamed official as saying that Netanyahu has agreed to press the cabinet to approve the 90-day settlement freeze, in a bid to end the deadlock with the Palestinians over peace talks.
Sources said that no fewer than four Likud cabinet members expressed their vehement opposition Sunday to the new deal. Among them vice premiers Moshe Ya'alon and Silvan Shalom.
At a weekly cabinet meeting which took place shortly afterwards, Netanyahu told the entire government that the American offer had not been completed, and would be presented to the security cabinet once finalized.
"I will insist that in any proposal Israel's security needs will be addressed, both in the immediate term and regarding the threats facing us in the coming decade," Netanyahu said in public remarks before the cabinet meeting.
"What is at stake," argued Shalom at the start of the cabinet meeting, "is not a three-month building freeze, but in fact the beginning of negotiations over the borders of a Palestinian state."
Shalom also criticized Netanyahu, noting, "It is a strategic error to condition an American veto [in the United Nations Security Council] and diplomatic support from Washington upon the continuation of a building freeze."
"It is something that should go without saying, based on the special relationship between our countries," he added.
"If we freeze [construction] for three months, the pressure on us to decide our permanent borders will be unbearable," Shalom told Israel Radio after the meeting. "Unfortunately, if that happens, it will be a huge mistake."
Despite the apparent widespread opposition to the deal, Shas chairman Eli Yishai told the cabinet that under certain circumstances, his party would not reject an extension of the settlement moratorium.
"If arrived a letter from the president of the United States stating that there could be immediate construction in Jerusalem, and that after 90 days there could be unlimited construction anywhere, we would think about abstaining," he said.
"I am sorry that this debate is about details not principles," said Edelstein. "The government has itself committed to end the freeze. The freeze was a mistake, and we must oppose its continuation. We must demand negotiations without preconditions. The strategic covenant between the United States and ourselves cannot be dependent on certain actions."
The Palestinians have also expressed strong reservations about the proposal because the moratorium would apply only to the West Bank, not East Jerusalem, the Palestinians' hoped-for capital. Still, they did not reject it outright, saying they would consult among themselves and with Arab leaders.
Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the Americans had not officially informed the Palestinians about the details of the proposal, "but they know we have a major problem in not including East Jerusalem."
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will put the U.S. plan before Palestinian decision-makers and call for an immediate session of Arab League officials before announcing an official decision, Erekat said.
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"If we freeze [construction] for three months, the pressure on us to decide our permanent borders will be unbearable." What's wrong with that?
Any agreement with the US must be binding on the US and ratified by Congress we know Obama?hillary can not be trusted. They have already violated agreements and understandings. Obama is negotiating for abbas giving abbas the veto. This is a way of whip sawing Israel for more concessions. US support should be based upon the facts not Israeli compliance with US demands
Obama is not going to alienate the democrat parties most loyal and wealthy constituency. The republicans are not going to prevent any promise to Israel to go unfulfilled. Wait for a formal treaty and Israel will not get anything for nothing.
Any agreement with the US must be binding on the US and ratified by Congress we know Obama?hillary can not be trusted. They have already violated agreements and understandings. Obama is negotiating for abbas giving abbas the veto. This is a way of whip sawing Israel for more concessions. US support should be based upon the facts not Israeli compliance with US demands
The rabid right is sure baying to the moon. Is it the end of the world if Netanyahu were to freeze settlement construction for another 90 days, then pocket the $30 billion and start building in February? To read the posts of the psychotic right on this forum leaves the impression that the world will end, Jerusalem will be surrendered and all Settlements will disappear in a dreaded peace agreement. "What is at stake, is not a three-month building freeze, but in fact the beginning of negotiations over the borders of a Palestinian state." - Silvan Shalom. . .Mr. Shalom reveals that Israel has had no intention so far of negotiating the borders - therefore the existence - of a Palestinian State. Why would Netanyahu be any more serious about negotiating a Palestinian State 90 days from now than he was yesterday? Mr. Netanyahu has said NO to peace his whole life. I cannot imagine he would have a epiphany during the next 90 days.
Bibi goes to the Knesset and after much arm twisting, he gets agreement to Obama's deal. But the PLO rejects it without a "freeze" in Jerusalem, too (which they already said they would do). So Obama now demands a Jerusalem freeze, with extension until a final peace is signed, and offers some worthless junk as "additional incentives" to Bibi. "No way", says Bibi, "a deal is a deal". And Obama says back, "oh no, YOU JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME (how many times have we Americans heard that?), that wasn't my actual deal, those were only "IDEAS", now we need to re-negotiate a deal that will satisfy the PLO. This is the way crooked Chicago politics works, to anybody who is familiar with it - and this is the way a cheap Chicago political hack like Obama operates, something every American has seen by now, and VOTED AGAINST in the last election.
Instead of a list of incentives to offer Israel, it needs to present it with a list of things to be taken away...never to be resumed once they have been. Present the list with a deadline for Israeli action - if none, scratch the first item and repeat as required. The goodies list will never produce tangible progress towards an agreement because it's always just been played by Israel as a way of milking more from the U.S. A chamge of tack is LONG overdue!
Take the money and then build. 90 days isn't even a three month delay. Obama is a fool, and anyone who would turn down big money for next to nothing is a bigger fool.
when israel would have been happy to be offered secure, recognized borders with its neighbours. But thar was before the Jewish greed took over ...
"What is at stake is not a three-month building freeze, but in fact the beginning of negotiations over the borders of a Palestinian state." -- Outrageous! From then on Jews would have to build only on their own land, not on others' anymore. What impertinence!
Netanyahu shouldnt fall for Obama's trap. In 90 days he will demand another year and so on. Obama is the kind of guy who will only ask for more suicidal concessions on the part of Israel. Join our Facebook group called "American Jews Against Obama" for more information.
The freeze is not a mistake. It will bring valuable aircraft to Israel, support the President of the US on his hopeless and hapless mission, and show good will to the US (it never hurts). It will have no long term impact on the peace process since there will not be peace in the forseeable future. How could there be without Hamas in the picture? Here are some points to consider. Israel has become or will soon become impervious to Palestinian ability to hurt it. Certainly the world community makes noises but does nothing, so can be ignored. Therefore Israel can play nice guy for another three months. The most interesting point that Israel can begin to make during the freeze period is that the settlements are actually a benefit to the Palestinians. As accepted friends the settlers would help the Palestinian West Bank community to grow in commerce, culture and critical infrastructure and ultimately to become a thriving country beginning to resemble Israel. it is not clear how they would be governed but presumably the settlements would consist of Israeli citizens living in the West Bank and governed by the West Bank; i.e., immigrants.
Maybe one of you talkbackers can help me with a few questions I have: 1) What was going on during the last 10 month settlement freeze? What is different about this one? This one will lead to peace? 2) A "peace treaty" with Abbas and his crew, who I think everyone will agree with here are mostly in power only due to American, international, and Arab aid, will mean what exactly? "Palestine" will be committed to non-violence against Israel? No more ridiculous "right of return" claims? An end to incitement, holocaust denial, and outright anti-Semitism in Palestinian media? Is Palestine ready to combat the Islamist terrorism within their midst? Oh yea, one more little thing I forgot; what about HAMAS? Don't they control like HALF the Palestinian population?
1) The PA, and the Arab League put a simple solution on the table: 67 borders with a land swap that allows 20% of the settlers to stay in place, partition jerusalem, and the Palis will kiss the "right of return" to Israel proper goodbye forever. 2) A genuine two-state solution (or one state with equal rights for all) will mean dignity for the Palestinian people. If West Bank Arabs have the same freedoms Israelis have, Hamas will wither away. The racist Israelis like Ovadia Yosef Avigdor Lieberman and Rabbi Shapira, who every day incite violence against Arabs and Islam, will also fall by the wayside. That is what peace will bring. Get it now?
Are we finally going to stand up for the ideals this country supposedly holds dear and stop allowing Israel to trample on the rights of others? Only when the US stops protecting this apartheid state will we regain any respect in the world and Obama knows it. Its about time the American public elected a president that has the moral courage to stand up for American values
Are we finally going to stand up for the ideals this country supposedly holds dear and stop allowing Israel to trample on the rights of others? Only when the US stops protecting this apartheid state will we regain any respect in the world and Obama knows it. Its about time the American public elected a president that has the moral courage to stand up for American values
None of the leading members of the Obama administration had any experience in foreign policy, first and foremost Obama himself. It behooves a novice president to appoint at least one expert to his foreign policy team, but he appointed none (probably because he did not appreciate diplomatic complexities). Hillary is no expert, the Secretary of Defense Gates does not get involved, and the National Security Advisor was a General who could organize the operation but with no ideas. V.P. Biden had experience as a senator, but he is a lightweight. Compare this situation to Nixon and Ford who had Kissinger, and Carter employed Brzezinski. Both advisors brought "foreign" successes to their masters. It seems that the only "thinker" in the ME team of this administration is Denis Ross, an advisor of Obama. Whoever read Ross' book on the ME realizes that he is a very skillful negotiator, who comes up with bridging proposals even in tough cases. But he is not a strong man, and may not know how to use the "big stick". Ross might be the one responsible for the latest ridiculously generous "package" of incentives for a THREE months freeze of construction which is not even sufficient. I did not take into account that Ross is a Zionist Jew.
Mind you, that presupposes that this cabinet is rational. Tough call, considering that you can already count out four of the Likud ministers.....
If the government has meant what was said, about the two state solution, then what does it mean when Silvan Shalom, says that borders will be unbearable? This is a Humpty Dumpty world in which words can mean different things according to the fancy of the speaker: ( see below ) "If we freeze [construction] for three months, the pressure on us to decide our permanent borders will be unbearable," Shalom told Israel Radio after the meeting. "Unfortunately, if that happens, it will be a huge mistake."
With a 90 day freeze the Palestinians will again just run out the clock and then demand endless further extensions.
Israel should freeze settlement construction (as it did earlier) for as long as it takes to agree with the Palestinians on the border in WB. (Jerusalem may be excluded at this stage.) The two sides will have an incentive to hurry up: The Palestinians, because they want their state, and Israel, because the settlers will be pushing to build. Once the border is known, the settlers can build in the area designated for Israel.
if by wanting it all, means staying in their own home without fear of attack, means wanting it all, then there is nobody who does not want it all. I suspect you "want it all" as well unfortunately
Keep dreaming. The US is just buying time, hoping it can shove some peace plan down Israel's throat so it can beg the Muslims to leave it alone. That won't satisfy the Muslims and most Jews don't agree to be a bunch of patsies.
the Deal is just for a 90 day freeze, and perhaps a save face summit in Washington, but light years away from the peace you speak of.
Although I have the highest respect for Vice Premier Ya'alon, On this occasion,I must disagree with him. Neither do I think that it is a 'honey trap' A world power,The USA giving its word on any issue is not something that should be looked over,as if it was given by some street-vendor. If a promise by a great power is not fulfilled there will be repercussions that will spread like concentric circles till it engulfs the world !
President Bush assured Israel that post '67 war changes on the ground were recognized. Mrs. Clinton declared there was no record of such an agreement.
the usa has been pressuiried to go back on itw word to israel before. it promised to guaranate israel's waterway's in '57, then reneged in '67 if it happened once it can happen agian
Israel does the right thing, constantly. No need to justify them one by one...America can do the right or wrong thing, it is unfortunately obama's prerogative. Acceding to kangaroo courts is his choice and will ultimately be to his shame. Offering to whimsically trade what has always made America so great; namely, their long held moral authority and universal values on which America is built is undeniably disgraceful by any standards. Better they should show some tough love to the Palestinians if they want to really advance peace talks. This administration is turning off Americans to the Democratic Party because of its ideological leanings and it’s not only hard to watch, but it’s in fact dangerous for the world. What happened to truth, honor, decency, morality? In every sense, if the above article is true, then Americans who DID vote for obama are in for big surprises, and not necessarily what they wanted when they voted for a slogan called "change".
I am taken back by this Ministers comment that this freeze will result "in the beginning of negotiations over the borders of a Palestinians State." Hello Mr Shalom, that's what decades of negotiating has been all about. Borders. Stop kicking the can down the street. Now, is the time.
negotiations with a people sworn to your destruction is a fools errand..........
So Israel, has to be bribed to behave itself. The US is stupid enough to pay billions to get Israel to do something they should be doing in the first place. It would have given Israel some credibility and respect, if they had stopped the building of illegal settlements, without being bribed and cajoled. It would have shown good faith.
To whom exactly should we show good faith? The Palestinians? We are not talking about the Swiss or the Canadians here. Have you seen their records in the past 20 years? It looks more like Al-Quaida! They should show good faith to us - and the rest of the Western world (but seem to never being asked to do so). Regarding the fighter jets "bribe", I would rather look at it as a sign from the US that we should use them to neutralize the Iranian nuclear threat ourselves, while the rest of you, beautiful minds, watches us from your sofas and emit opinions. Not that we will expect any "respect" then: there never was any from your part anyway.
concern (panic, knickers-in-a-twist, whatever) over possibly negotiating borders--speaks volumes about the true intentions of a certain segment of the body politic.
Mr. Shalom probably meant that Arab recognition of Israel as the Jewish nation must precede border determinations.
1. You are flat-out mistaken. 2. And, because you are, Israel can--over the long haul--ILL AFFORD to blithely dismiss--the rest of the world.
I am a strong Zionist. But Israel is not what it used to be. There are now too many people like you. Are you blind? No other country in the world gets offers like this one. Israel is leading the USA around by the nose. It can accept or reject the offer as it sees fit but only a moron would say that US has complete say. The stress is obviously taking a toll on you mental faculties.
TAKE THE DEAL AND FREEZE BUILDING IN ARIEL. It's really not going to hurt, except a slightly bumpier road with the Adams Family you chose for your coalition. Choose the better of Israel, not your own. There is no way Israel will ever be out of the international public opinion's eye in how it deals with the Palestinians, and no way it can hold on to the West Bank and enjoy "calm" (status quo). Besides, -and I know you couldn't care less- it's not fair nor Jewish do so, even if most of our Biblical history is in Judea and Samaria, rather than in the coast, Galilee and Negev. Stop playing games, as the NTY Editorial of today says, and get serious -which you are not-. It isn't a cliché that eventually Israel will have to deal with her neighbors and establish reasonable borders with the Palestinians and Syria. True, Iran is there, and so is Hezballah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Al-Qaida. What is best for Israel, to diffuse the danger it poses by garnering international support with a peace deal with the Palestinians, or to grab the west Bank and become isolated, giving Israel to political extremists and religious nuts? ISRAELIS: If Netanyahu just wants to hold on to his coalition and seat, you HAVE TO PROTEST unless you want it all to explode in a horrendous terror war on your home front. Wake up for God's sake.
One billion dollars a month for a three month 'freeze'? How much post 'freeze' construction will the free F-35s pay for? What a deal! Netanyahu proves again his is the maser of Obama.
These aren't ADDITIONAL F-35s. These are the same twenty F-35s that Ehud Barak signed a contract for just a few months ago. They have been included in this package precisely so the Americans can threaten to withhold their delivery if Netanyahu doesn't agree to the freeze. Since the Israelis have already committed to "buying" them (and Shapiro has "sold" them twice already) their inclusion in this package (third time lucky, heh guys!) entails no additional cost to the US taxpayer.
Too many times both the Israeli thinking and the Arabic thinking is one-upsmanship...there is really win-win opportunities here. Israel has a moral obligation to "give back " to the USA as Peres recently stated publicly.
the F35 program is plagued by cost overruns and testing problems. Israel would be better off demanding 20 F22 Raptors. That would be music to the ears of the Republicans and they are the best fighter in the air now. Throw in some B2's and B61 bunker buster bombs and Israel cam declare a national holiday.
"Israel would be better off demanding 20 F22 Raptors." DEMANDING?!?!?!??!? Man, you really should listen to yourself sometime.....
I am a loyal supporter of Israel and a cynic. I agree with you. I would never live under Hamas rule. The are as stupid as the zealot settlers. I totally reject the Bush Doctrine and the paranoia of Likud. I forgot to add refuelling cooperation and full CIA plausibile deniablity cooperation. Obama could get Republicans to sign the millionaire 2% tax expiration and full implemation of health care reform act if he would neuter Iran as Graham proposed.
F-22 production has been terminated. The line is shutting down.
Is that it owes the US nothing, the US owes it. Obama has essentially offered an additional $30 billion in aid to Israel by offering to give the F-35s to Israel while still supplying $30 billion already provided by Bush. Netanyahu can take the money, delay construction for 90 days, and then laugh all the way to the bank.
so you believe someone who believes that the jewish people are entitled to self determination must be arrogant this statement says more about you than zionism and jews
you're mistaken, US gov would be wise to know that JEWS could just as easily impeach a president as putting him in the first place, which is what will happen if the gov keeps pushing for peace.
The word is out as to what Bibi has begun: preparations for the assassination of President Obama in the event that the Palestinians declare unilaterally their existence as a sovereign state at the United Nations. This has been uncovered in its intent by eolectronic eavesdropping; the details of how it would be accomplished are not entirely clear to the Americans, but you can be sure of this: All the Cantors and Hoyers in Congress will not be able to do anything on extremist Likud/Israel's behalf. And wait until the announcement by the U. S. Government in having uncovered this plot against the person of the President of the United States.
That's "presidential Pretender" for you, Barney.
as to the reliability of the "word" you refer to--but if some simple-minded soul(s) actually pulled off something of this nature--the "unintended consequences"--would be (a) quite predictable, and (b) definitely on STEROIDS!
you're in your own little fantasy world there buddy, haha thanks for the laugh, israel doesn't need to kill anyone, they Control the house, Congrees, and the UN. if the USA doesn't veto the UN palestinian thing, other counties will, Some of which lately seem Much more freindly to Israel than the US
Where are China and Russia in these matters. It seems they stay quiet on the sidelines. Both enjoy diplomatic and economic ties with Israel after all they continue to do well with science and health products coming from Israel. The only thing they can get from coming out in favor of Israel is a backlash from their Moslem minorities.
If Israel rejects it, the US has a green light not to veto the establishment of Palestine. If it agrees, the West Bank borders are set. Tough decision to make. Peace by choice or peace imposed by the world. Is the 'honey' in addition to the $3 billion in welfare that Israel gets annually? Nice shiny planes!
Just one wrinkle though..."If it agrees, the West Bank borders are set" No, it is slightly more complicated than that i.e. if Israel agrees AND then hammers out a deal on borders within 90 days THEN the borders will be set. But if Israel agrees AND then refuses to negotiate in good faith THEN after 90 days the USA will pull the incentive package and Israel will lose that automatic veto. Oooooh, that's a tough choice for Bibi....
It's long overdue
Is it date honey? That would be one delicious trap.
"the pressure on us to decide our permanent borders will be unbearable" - you'd think Israeli politicians would realize that there can be no peace without permanent borders. Is asking a country to fix borders after 62 years unreasonable and unbearable? Only in Israel
Israeli papers are omitting the most important language of this phony "fix it." In the NY Times today it states ....In return, the Obama administration has offered Israel a package of security incentives and fighter jets worth $3 billion that would be contingent on the signing of a peace agreement, the official said. Therefore, no signed peace deal no candy. The likelihood of this generation of Arabs signing a Peace Deal with Israel is close to zero. It awaits the day oil is no longer the trump card in relations with the West.
What has happened to rule of law? All the settlements are ILLEGAL. This is like begging and enticing a thief NOT to go back and steal anything else from the houses he burgled in the past. I'm embarrassed beyond description that my country (USA) has stooped this low. How is this any different from Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
dismantle all the settlements or we'll be seeing you in the Hauge.
Congratulations! You appear to be the first person in this thread to compare someone to Hitler! I think most reasonably intelligent people will be able to discern why this analogy is insulting and absurd, but just in case: Hitler killed 6 million Jews and millions more civilians. Israel has not done this, and no reasonable person would ever say they would. You could have said, "appeasing Israel is bad." That would have been a reasonable statement to either agree or disagree with.
it is NOT illegal to Build on your Land! the west Bank is caputured territory of war! just like the US setteled Hawaii and alaska etc. the west Bank NEVER belonged to palestenians anyway, it belonged to Jordan. it is the israeli's that are stupid that keep going into negotiotions for "peace" when they know the arabs don't want peace, the didnt want it in 1947 and don't want it now! they are not willing to accept a JEWISH state, why Won't they Allow Jewish resident's in so called palastine if they want palestinians in Israel?
Well, the US bought Alaska in 1867 from Russia. The Palestinians has severel times stated thet settlers can stay in a Pal state. You ARE not really informed, are you?
israel is surrounded by extremists who believe that its destruction is essential. the more land you take away from them, the harder it is to fulfil their evil aims. the palestinians voted for hamas in the last elections who state openly what israel's end should be in their constition israel settlements have been a massive humanitarian action, we need more of them, not less. you cannot have too much of a good thing
israel is surrounded by extremists who believe that its destruction is essential. the more land you take away from them, the harder it is to fulfil their evil aims. the palestinians voted for hamas in the last elections who state openly what israel's end should be in their constition israel settlements have been a massive humanitarian action, we need more of them, not less. you cannot have too much of a good thing
It’s about time that some pressure for the sake of humanity is applied on the right wing gov`t. A forced peace is the only peace possible with the current generation of Israeli politicians. This is the ultimatum given to arrogant Israel. 1. No Veto 2. No Money 3. No Iran
But it will make a positive respons if the arabs realy comes to the table and work things out! The only arrogant and ignorant person is you tony as usual!
Only Israelis can decide what is better for Israel, they dont need a foreigner as a danish bigot to give them lessons. you mind your own bussiness
with a reasonable peace plan ( the Saudi plan) and what did Israel do? Nothing other than build more settlements and keep on the propaganda that Israel wants peace but the Arabs do not...
No arabs should tell Israel what to do! Neither should some redneck from the us! Most americans are good friends of Israel! So if some redneck tryes to meddle we just ignore him!
The Saudi plan was for Israel to shrink to indefensible borders which are no longer on the map.
Bibi Netanyahu succeeded in extorting huge concessions out of the U.S. in exchange for virtually nothing -- a 3-month freeze on settlement construction that will not be extended anyway. methinks the americans made the ridiculously good offer knowing that people like bogie and judy's boy will turn it down.
who is going to sign an agreement ? the same plo that signed the oslo fiasco accord ? the dumbocrats are desperate for something and pick on bibi the man who created the moratorium idiocy !
Only an imposed solution will work. Iran, Syria, Hizballa and Turkey will force the solution. Israel is only stocking up on weapons to face the inevitable confrontation. I give it 6 months before the poop hits the fan in that area.
Just another excuse from the Muslim/ Arab world to do what they do. The only consistent and politically coherent thing that unite them is the fantasy of eradicating us. This one will be very ugly, by the way. The worst so far, probably. I can't wait for it to be over, so we can build something new.
The list contains all the EXISTING privileges that the USA is extending to Israel, and so that package represents nothing less than a veiled threat i.e. reinstate that freeze or we will revoke those privileges and hang you out to dry.
you omit east jerusalem
The profit is expanded settlements, American aid, and pacification of Israels right wing. Israel also profits by talking peace. The profit is even more American aid and concessions, and pacification of the EU and other international critics.
Always a carrot. Never a stick. If a stick is ever used , is a candy cane. Why???? Congress is criminal and Israeli occupied territory...
What the USA has done with this "incentive package" is list of all the things the USA is **already** doing for Israel. The implication: if Israel refuses to reinstate that freeze then the USA will remove everything that is in that package, and that will mean hanging Israel out to dry. That's a pretty powerful stick, which is precisely why Ya'alon, Shalom, Edelstein and Erdan are now frothing at the mouth.
This problem will only be solved by imposing a peace treaty by America. There is something wrong there and the current administration is getting to recognize it. It is never too late to disengage from full unquestionable support to Israel.
the only way to impose a peace deal is to smash hamas to smithereens. you do not do that, then you are just playing around with peace, but not making the difficult decisions that need to be made.
They dont want peace, its like a spoiled child.
There is always an other election comming up. We all must remember that!
too powerful
What I meant was if any us politician does what you say. They will never win another election again! Thanks to my friends at AIPAC! Hehe...
palestinians are far more vulnerable to counter sanctions than israel is. who do you think supplies the palestinians with electricty and water
America is financially bankrupt as of last friday as we started printing instead of making money, now we are morally bankrupt by bribing an occupying country to not build illegally in occupied land. Is this moral? As a proud American, i am fed-up. Wake-up America.
american legal experts have said settlements are legal
The U.S. has offered to deliver 20 F-35 fighter jets to Israel, a deal worth $3 billion, asking in return for Israel to stop construction in the West Bank for 90 days?
These are the very same 20 F-35s that Ehud Barak signed a contract for some two months ago i.e. these aren't included in this "package" as a "reward", but so that Obama can threaten to renege on that contract if Netanyahu refuses to extend the freeze.
This new incentive is not to sell Israel the F35's but to give them freely ....... Big difference
ALL of the F-35s that Israel will "buy" will ALL be funded entirely from US military aid money to Israel i.e. they ALL will be paid for by Uncle Sam. Didn't you know that?
the total original package was worth over 22 billion..... this was for the sale of military arms of all kinds. While we contribute some 1-3 billion yearly to israel, they have funds of their own that they spend on our military hardware. For your FYI, we also purchase a substaintial amount of military good from them. ie; high tech hardware.
... will be paid for from USA military aid money to Israel i.e. Israel will not reach into its pockets to pay for any of them.
"If arrived a letter from the president of the United States stating that there could be immediate construction in Jerusalem, and that after 90 days there could be unlimited construction anywhere, we would think about abstaining" Yeah, and if pigs can fly you'd have to carry an umbrella. Dude, your statement amounts to this: we don't like what the USA *has* actually offered, so we plan to write ourselves a new offer and tell Obama he can present that to us instead..... Honestly, Yishai is off galavanting around Planet Koozbaine, because he certainly isn't in touch with Planet Earth.
President Obama will never write a personal letter to the Shas chairman and he knows it. He should also demand that the letter be personally written by Obama on parchment by hand with a quill pen.
misconstruing, yisahi. if obama wants yishai's vote, this is what he wants to see. called negotiation , happens the whole time between israel and usa
"if obama wants yishai's vote" No, actually. NETANYAHU wants Yishai's vote. Obama has told Netanyahu what to do, and once he does that he couldn't give a shit **how** Bibi delivers. After all, you tell the organ-grinder what song you want played, but you don't then get into a argument with the monkey regarding your taste in music....... .
(seem to be a slightly different point ) but not always does the us get its way when it wants israel to do something . see east jerusalem
Both countries support occupation,both them are militarists, finance wars, kill a lot of people,etc... u have palestine,afganistan,lebanon, iraq, egypt for example.
"The strategic covenant between the United States and ourselves cannot be dependent on certain actions" Ahem. I do believe the United States has just taken a rather contrary view.......
not at all. clinton/obama has said a number of times the alliance is unbeakable
I believe the Americans have finally come around to the view that there is a connection between those two events......
and I believe they will repeat this commitment again within the next 6 months. agree or disagree ?
"It is a strategic error to condition an American veto and diplomatic support from Washington upon the continuation of a building freeze." It's not YOUR vote, sunshine, so it isn't up to YOU to decide wether or not it comes with strings attached. Obama makes that decision, so you either accept those conditions or OBAMA WON'T USE THE VETO. *sheesh* The arrogance of Israeli politicians is beyond belief.....
"Meanwhile, the New York Times on Sunday quoted an unnamed official as saying that Netanyahu has agreed to press the cabinet to approve the 90-day settlement freeze, in a bid to end the deadlock with the Palestinians over peace talks." And what that DOESN'T tell you is that this same official stessed to the NYT that the incentive package is contingent on a peace agreement being reached i.e. if the 90 days passes without a breakthrough on borders then Bibi can kiss this incentive package goodbye......
"The U.S. will not ask Israel to extend the new freeze when it expires." I bet they won't. But don't think this means that Netanyahu will be able to start building again WITH AMERICAN BLESSING. Noooooooo. If the 90 days passeswithout a breakthrough on borders then the Americans are certain to throw their hands in the air and declare the "US mediated peace process" to be dead and buried. At which point two things will happen (a) Bibi will start building like crazy while (b) the USA will step aside and let this go to the UN Security Council. At which point I don't fancy Bibi's chances....
Israelis are used to getting something for nothing, so a deal in which they have to pay, even something so trivial as a three month freeze, seems like no bargain to them. Some Israeli officials are afraid that this could be the beginning of a real peace deal instead of the usual peace fakery. This is Israels worst nightmare. In the end, Israel will take this deal if Netanyahu can convince his ministers that Israel will pull the usual delay, obfuscation, deceit, and foot dragging necessary to undermine any actual peace attempt.
Israel will have 90 days to nail down an agreement with Abbas on borders. If they do make that deal then any further "settlement freeze" becomes redundant i.e. everyone will know what settlements will go to Israel, and what settlements will be handed to the Palestinians. But if Bibi dodges and weaves and fails to clinch that deal within 90 days then the USA will simply give up on him i.e. the incentive package will lapse, the "peace process" will be dead, and the USA will step aside and allow this issue to go to the UNSC. That is the **last** thing that Netanyahu will want, so he really is between a rock and a hard place. Provided, of course, he can actually carry this vote in the cabinet room.....
you have prematurly buried netanyahu before. lets see if your new prediction fares any better
We read the news, about the reactions of the so-called "Israeli leaders". They talk things in a serious way, trying to immitate world leaders. Things like "our special relationship", "strategic partnership"... the reality is that they should not be taken seriously. Israel has no autonomy. Has no sovereigtny. All we know that Bibi has already commited to the freeze. And Israel has no option to adopt it. And after three months, if the Americans want, there will another freeze. By going against the world, against the law, Israel has chosen to lost it independence and is now a mere receptacle of American order. The good news is that the Palestinians little by little are imposing their conditions. For the first time in this conflict, the Palestinians are showing they can push the Israelis and the Americans against the world opinion. The world is changing rapidly. US is no longer the only world power and Obama knows that. India, Russia, China, Europe are now counting more and more. And they all favor the Palestinians. The US should not offer anything for Israel. Just order a freeze and that's it. It would be funny to see these "Israeli leaders" keep their speech...
I don't believe this mish mash by the cabinet as I would strongly argue no one would refuse such an offer from the US. The US is offering Israel something that would boost the combat abilities of its army by providing hi-tec fire fighters "JUST FOR FREEZING SETTLEMENTS FOR THREE MONTHS" More important, the US is not going to ask for further freeze after a three-month freeze! So how about that? Israel is the only winner, and the US by offering this it avoids the violation of international law by Israel (being an occupation) and helps in the continued military imbalance in the region.
"JUST FOR FREEZING SETTLEMENTS FOR THREE MONTHS" No, the delivery of those 20 F-35s is years away. If the Israelis can not nail down a deal on borders in 90 days then it will never, ever, ever see those planes. "More important, the US is not going to ask for further freeze after a three-month freeze!" *sigh* Why not think about the implications of that, heh? If there is no breakthrough in those 90 days then the USA will simply give up on this peace process i.e. it will declare a "US mediated peace process" to be dead and buried, and at that point the incentive package will lapse, the USA will step aside, and this issue will go to the UN Security Council.
but if you ask me to be real..do you really think what you said can be "at all real" the USA will step aside, and this issue will go to the UN Security Council. ?????
After all, the USA **already** applies an automatic veto on all UNSC resolutions that are critical of Israel. Therefore including that veto in this "incentive package" isn't actually offering the Israelis anything that is new. So the only reason to include it is to threaten to withdraw it should this package fall through. So, yeah, I think that Obama is angling to present Bibi with An Offer He Can Not Refuse i.e. do as you are told or this will go to the Security Council.
appear to be lining up to bite the hand that feeds them. The sooner this government collapses the better.
and even disrespect its spoiled dad? stupid America needs to wake up and be free from its zionist control.
what's in a name Shalom does not want : " the beginning of negotiations over the borders of a Palestinian state", in other words no peace talks.Shalom reminds Natanyahu that he made a strategic mistake because Israel controls Capitol Hill ("special relationship") and not the Obama Administration, so Israel will get the fighters and the vetoes,no building stop is needed, and you know what? Shalom probably will be right !
because it's totally insane my government wants to reward Israel if it stops breaking international law with its illegal settlement construction policy. The rest of the world must be laughing their butts off at us because Israel can reject peace and get new weapons to bully its neighbors even more.
....americans like you took your country back. no we're not laughing our butts of , we feel sorry for you, and hope uncle sam wakes up before it causes another disaster in the mideast
The package lists all the things that Israel already takes for granted, and so it is merely a list of all the things the USA will withhold if Israel refuses to extend the settlement freeze. That's a threat, not an reward. A subtle threat, sure, but a threat nontheless.
Israsel will get the jets and all the necessary American aid. American veto in the SC is a given. Nobody questions that. Israel will concede some type of freezing in the west bank, however, will keep settling Jerusalem which extends all over the West Bank. The reason for Israel chutzpah is twofold; The American people knows no matter what kind of administration is elected that:. 1) Israel is an ally. Allies should be aid especially if THEY HAVE THE MEANS AND DETERMINTATION TO Defend themselves . Israel indeed is not South Vietnam. 2) More important than that. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews. Any normal Midwest american knows that by hard. They read the Bible regularly. Natanihau knows that and he understands and reads well the congress election turnout. It seeems that American, Australian and European leftwingers will have to wait a bit longer if they expect major shifts in American policy towards israel.
"Israsel will get the jets and all the necessary American aid. American veto in the SC is a given. Nobody questions that." If the 90 days passes and Israel HASN'T nailed down a deal on borders then the USA will, indeed, "question" those assumptions of yours.
and in the meantime Israel keeps growing and settling and nothing serious really happens. Obama does have neither the mandate nor the will to punish an American ally. Nowadays clearer than ever. Natayiahu is staging a nice paradoia, and will give Obama a bit of "freezing" , He wll "show" the whole world how much he is conceding and how difficult his life is with the coalition. Even Johnboy knows that Israel will not really freeze and especially not in Jerusalem. Alohhhh !!! Haveryou people heard of the Congress vote turnout???? The Tea party around the corner???? Obama??? Who cares about Obama?
A friend just stops building because it is the right thing and moral to do.
Only "tiny Israel" thinks it can do that.....
USA build in their own country. Israel build settlements in another country which is a crime. If you canät see the differense i don't think i can do anything for you
the only treaty extant is the san remo convention which gave ALL THE LAND TO JEWISH STATE ! no arab land is mentioned !
no other country is surriounded by fanatics who say that it's destruction is essential.
These aren't the "fanatics" who have all signed onto the Saudi Plan, I take it?
(1)i was referring to a poll taken of the palestinian people. (2)You are aware I believe that hamas won the last elections and you should be aware what hamas say in their constitution regarding israel's fate. (2)the fact that saudi plan calls for israel to return to indefensible boders, hardly helps your case
Go on, be all hairy-chested and reject this "incentive package". Because if you do then you are rejecting everything that is in that package i.e. Obama will let the Goldstone report go to the ICC, and he will no longer veto UNSC resolutions, and he will withhold those 20 F-35 fighters (which Israel has already signed for). Please, please, please, do it!
1 israel will offer to halt construction in judea and samaria for ninety days, retroactive to 26 september, and thus concluding 26 december. this halt in construction will be as a courtesy to the us president. no further halts in construction will be asked for or given. 2 the us will agree to the deliver an additional 20 F-35 fighter jets to israel as part of long-standing agreements, guaranteed by congress, to maintain israeli defence forces qualitative edge within the region and the threats faced by israel within the region. 3 the us will continue the long standing us policy to support israel in the un and in all organs of the un and in the international community in general. it is to be agreed to by both parties that israel as a sovereign state and a member of the united nations, and as a recognised member of the international community, has under all conditions the right to self defence under the united nations charter and this right is an essential part of sovereignty and irrevocable. the parties will also agree that the alliance between israel and the united states is strategic and political and this alliance is longstanding and is of much importants to both parties, israel and the united states. by virtue of this alliance, the united states will continu to support israel in the un security council, the general assembly and all organs of the united nations or agencies or courts created by the united nations. 4 any treaty concluded between israel and the united states will benefit israel as much as it will benefit the united states. any defence treaty must be based on the recognition by the parties that such treaty is entered into freely and in good faith after due consideration of the needs and obligations of both parties. for example, the stationing of foreign troops in any area presently under the control of israel will be done only after due consultation and within treaty fframework. any treaty to become effective would need to be ratified, in the case of the us, by the senate, and in the case of israel by the knesset.
is of any intrinsic benefit to the United States. American interests revolve around a stable ME and what you propose is to further the disease that afflicts same.
... that anything less than ignoring or chiding Israel at this stage is USA stupidity... Israel has to be weaned not 'force-fed' new favors and concessions...
(1) "no further halts in construction will be asked for or given." That's because that is the moment when the USA will throw up its hands and give up on this farce. The issue will then go to the UNSC for its consideration. (2) "the us will agree to the deliver an additional 20 F-35 fighter jets" If you look at the reportage you will see that word "additional" is always omitted. That's because these are merely the 20 planes that Ehud Barak signed a contract for several months ago. (3) "us will continue the long standing us policy to support israel in the un" If the additional 90 days passes WITHOUT an agreement on the borders of Israel then the USA will declare the peace process to be dead, and so that incentive package will lapse. And with the lapsing of that package Obama will be free to sit on his hands in the UNSC. (4) "the parties will also agree that the alliance between israel and the united states is strategic and political and this alliance is longstanding and is of much importants to both parties, israel and the united states" Declarative fluff, and as such it is a statement that is devoid of any substance or meaning.
Because what this "package" represents is a threat i.e. Obama is laying out all the things that the USA will NO LONGER DO for the Israelis if they refuse to extend the freeze. (a) The USA will no longer block the Goldstone report. (b) The USA will no longer veto UNSC resolutions. (c) The USA will no longer supply fighter jets. Israel has a choice: it can choice those goodies, or it can choose settlement expansion, but what Obama is saying is that it can no longer have both.
israeli behaviour contradics jewish values.
Government officials like Mr. Shalom who believe that the US is forever indebted to Israel due to the two countries' "special relationship" are living in a dream world. The US is getting very little from Israel these days in terms of respect or cooperation and the "special relationship" is seeming increasingly stupid, even to Jewish Americans (such as myself) who have always rooted for Israel and pushed for close ties. Israel needs to quickly realize how frustrating and angry even the most supportive Americans are becoming.
Sure Israel has it's share of problems, but they are not even on the same scale as problems of the 12th century Arab nations opposing Israel. Death sentences for "Insulting Islam", death sentences for adultery (for women only), death sentences for selling land to Jews... there is absolutely no comparison. When you see something bad on one side, don't assume that the other side "must be better". Because, like in this case, the other side is much, much worse.
... because the only normal, acceptable freeze should be for all time ever... it's not ours, nor has it ever been...
It will be a "last-change" freeze i.e. it represents the last chance for Israel to prove to the USA that this peace process is anything but a farce. Think about it: Israel freezes settlement construction for 90 days, and in return the USA will give it political cover to cut a deal with the PLO on borders. If such a deal is done then there simply is no need for any further settlement freeze, precisely because "what will be Israeli territory, and what will be Palestinan territory" will be known to everyone. But if that deal is not done......... then the USA will declare the peace process to be dead. At which point the incentive package will lapse, and there will be no more US veto in the Security Council.
not so simple, what happens, if us proposes boders that neither sides accept.?
Actually, all this "offer" from the Americans could be a veiled threat. Why would the US offer something to Israel that it is already giving without conditions for the past 4 decades? Perhaps the message is that if Israel doesn't freeze settlements, the US will stop supporting it unconditionally. But I don't think Americans can be so shrewd.
I'm not asking for 20 like Bibi. 1 will do! Anone know how much an 'as new' F35 goes for on Ebay these days?
I hope you get the F35 and tryes to sell it on ebay. Then you could be arrested for arms traffiking and sentenced to 25 years in a uk jail! You should feel quite at home in jail with all your terrorist friend there!
.... Then, Israel elected an extreme right government because of Hamas's permanent attacks on Israel's civilians.... That was solved with wars. Now the people want peace. The same government does not longer apply to the people's needs now.
Major contribution to Israeli security one can surmise. It seems the U.S. is preparing to defend what actions it may be taking in the UN.
And those words are "an additional". As in: The U.S. has offered to deliver AN ADDITIONAL 20 F-35 fighter jets to Israel. It appears that people have very short memories, because Ehud Barak signed a contract for the delivery of 20 - count 'em, 20! - F-35s a few months back. Obama is saying that if Israel rejects the call for a new freeze then he will freeze the delivery of those fighter jets.
The fact that Israeli politicians chose to ignore the speech by General Patreaus where he stated that the United States current policies towards Israel made it harder for the US to project American policy in the Middle East and was in fact costing American lives shows that the US attitude to Israel was changing last year. Netanyahu's recent behaviour to the people who pay the bills has allowed Obama to basically put the UN veto on the negotiating table. Israel is on very thin ice, and it's government will not be able to respond.
"Netanyahu's recent behaviour to the people who pay the bills has allowed Obama to basically put the UN veto on the negotiating table." Indeed. The point of including the veto in this "incentive package" is to put it into play i.e. if Israel refuses to freeze the settlements then it can kiss that veto goodbye. That the threat has come wrapped in a velvet glove does not make it any less of a threat... unless, of course, you are too stupid to understand what it means....
America has trillions of dollars in debt and it is giving millions MORE dollars to Israel--in addition to the $3 billion per year, so they can build a bunker against an imaginary enemy? No wonder why the US is going bankrupt, man! Israel isn’t a poorhouse, let them pay for their own crap.
"and that effectively will freeze Barak... who already transfered funds." Those "funds" being, of course, greenbacks. Because the entire $3billion is made up of US dollars donated to Israel as part of its military aid.
Major contribution to Israeli security one can surmise. It seems the U.S. is preparing to defend what actions it may be taking in the UN.
now that ....coupled with the new planes makes a recipe for an attack on Iran all the more likely. What irks me more though is that the US is so prepared to bend over backwards for this state who is hell bent on invasion (in the name of defence!) and land grabbing. PS If peace is worth $3billion then why hasn't peace come sooner since Israel get $3billion free/year anyway?
But I make an exeption! Israel has never attacked any country! Only defended when attacked! Also this "landgrabbing" is pure BS! YOU know all this to be true but you keep spitting at Israel because you are an anti.semite!
You must have been asleep for a long time, Vlad. Even the Israeli government didn't claim that one.
Obviously Vlad you have no clue has to who is Semite. From Webster's dictionary: Definition of SEMITE 1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples 2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic languag Now I am sick of people calling those of us who are sick of the violence over there and not supporting Israel's continually 1000 eyes for 1 eye policy by calling us anit-Semitic. Vlad get an education please.
Capitol Hill is an AIPAC- occupied territory!
But this dont stop me from supporting Israel! The people seeking the destruction of Israel or the Jewish people are propperly called anti-semites! Like you!
you seem not to like invasion (in the name of defence!) waht did your country do. it invaded germany in the name of self defence in '44 if it is good for the uk it is good for israel
construction of narratives, construction of settlements, construction of this and that, where will you ever come to your senses? Settlement freeze followed by military hardware, your tiny country is becoming an army garrison. Even if made by the UN, you're like any other state so please behave as such pariahs
for granted....... What a relationship.....Money, UN veto, at the expense of US taxpayer.
out of Iraq which costs you close to a trillion
It seems to me that the US gives lots of money to Israel and gives it political support in the UN, but gets nothing but insults in return. Maybe it's time for the US and Israel to part company and let Israel fend for itself.
• Senator Daniel Inouye(Subcommittee on Defense (Chairman),Subcommittee on Homeland Security)Argued Israeli information regarding Soviet arms saved the U.S. billions of dollars. The contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America is greater than that provided by all NATO countries combined, he said. Former Secretary of State and NATO forces commander Alexander Haig has stated that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security. In 1967, Israel defeated a radical Arab, pro-Soviet offensive, which threatened to bring about the collapse of pro-American Arab regimes and disrupt oil supply, thus severely undermining the American standard of living. The U.S. gained valuable military information from analysis of captured Soviet equipment, including SAM-2, SAM-12, Mig-21 aircraft, and Soviet T-54 battle tanks. In fact, Israel gave an entire squadron of MiG-21s to the U.S. which was dubbed the “Top Gun” squadron and used by the U.S. Air and Naval forces for training purposes. Since 1967, Israel transferred captured Soviet weapons systems to the U.S. Pentagon after every conflict: 1967, 1967-70, 1973, 1982, 1990 (Scud remnants from the Gulf War), and 2006 (remnants of Iranian supplied missiles. • In the 1967-1970 1000 Day War of Attrition, the IDF, armed with American aircraft successfully defeated a Soviet-supplied air defense system, pointing out the deficiencies in Soviet air-defense doctrine to US defense planners. Israel shared captured military equipment include P-2 radar and Soviet tanks with the U.S. military. • In 1970, Israel brought about the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Jordan, at a time when the U.S. was tied up by wars in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, thus preventing the fall of the pro-American Hashemite regime and the installation of a pro-Soviet radical Palestinian terrorist regime. • In 1973 – thanks to U.S. re-supply, but without U.S. forces, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian forces. Israel again shared captured Soviet equipment, including T-62 battle tanks with the U.S. Israel emerged as the only reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned, where the U.S. has friendly port facilities (in Haifa and Ashdod) in the entire Middle East region. This too has saved the U.S. billions of dollars.
All the thing syou mention here are more than 20 years ago, some of them almost 40 years ago. What's Israel been doing in return for it's 3 billlion a year for the last 20 years, apart from insluting the US and continuing the land grab?
Apart from saving countless lives in Iraq and Afganistan sharing experiences of years of house to house fighting and new Guerilla techniques used. SHared developements of technologies and weapons. Basically just being friends and allies. Not much
Or rumored undercover operations like Israeli special forces deployed in Iraq during Gulf 1. Israel shares with the US its battle-tested experience in combating Palestinian and Hizbullah terrorism, which are the role model of anti-US Islamic terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan. US GIs benefit from Israel’s battle tactics against car bombs, improvised explosive devices and homicide bombing. You should read "Defence of the Realm' authorised history of British intelligence. Islamic extremism started & grew from the fatwa on Rushdie. Read it,I bought in London,you have a problem with Hezballa and lots of Islamic extremists right at home
A recent CIA report revealed that Israeli espionage against the US is more aggressive than either China or Russia's operations. Israel is not an ally, it's an albatross.
in return for contract for BP...
He must have been a neocon ...
I guess you dont realize that 80 percent of the 3 billion Israel "gets" has to be spent in the USA. I beleive the 2.4 billion certainly must create at least a few jobs in the USA
So that's the reason the US is losing the war against terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan. They got their expertise from Israel.
so, why doesn´t stupid America lean this and end its backing?.
hardly in american interests for the middle east to be over-run by islamic fanatics
There comes a time when you have to stand up for international law. The US has tried endlessly to bribe Israel to make peace. It doesn't work. Too many Israeli politicians prefer to continue the land grab rather than having peace. The US has endlessly tried to appease Israel, now it needs to use the stick instead of the carrot,
Argentinian PM has called you "Pirates!" recently ,hasn't she ? Too many British politicians prefer to continue the land grab rather than having peace. The US has endlessly tried to appease GB, now it needs to use the stick instead of the carrot.
Arabs were colonial occupiers ,just like Spaniards had been And if you think "palestine" is arab ,why did your General Allenby meddled in it ?
Arabs never ruled and never owned Palestine. Moreover a palestinian state never existed and doubtly will ever exist. Jews are the only legitimate native owners of the land of Israel.
who lived in oz nz safrica canada the usa samerica for 30 centuries spot the hypocrisy michael ?
Must be difficult to hide your arab hatre. And struggling against the creation of a palestinian State. I do not envy you. How's life in Milwaukee by the way ??
I hope that Jasper has and will have a good life! For you sam I couldnt care less!
Good for you !! move to Milwaukee then and leave palestinians in peace. Bon voyage !
If they dont take the generous peace offer they have on the table! Just watch!
and stop giving in to what is increasingly becoming a very spoilt child. I will agree to stop sending anti-Bibi talkbacks for 15 minutes in return for a chocolate icecream and a coffee.
An agreement between the parties will. Time to roll up the sleeves and go to work for peace.
An agreement between the parties will. Time to roll up the sleeves and go to work. The last freeze achieved nothing
Get out of the territories, comply to UN resolutions and recognize a palestinian State. That's your homework ! palestinians have done theirs a lot time ago.
Is long enough Looking for excuses to avoid negotiations will get nobody anywhere PS it was the Arabs who chose to ignore the UN creating this conflict
You're wrong. Israel ONLY recognized the PLO and some "full authority" over a small pourcentage of the WB but never recognised any palestinian state and its official borders. There is NO palestinian State. This is called crookery. Viable borders are well known. Palestinians have accepted those borders. Only Israel refuses them, creating facts on the ground and using military force. You're the one looking for excuses, not me. And please avoid the old "Barak's genereous offer"......
It is a pre-existing COMMITMENT made by the Government of Israel as long ago as 2003 when it signed onto the Road Map. That nobody has previously called them out on their violation of that commitment does not mean they are no longer committed. They are, because nobody has ever agreed that they can abrogate that Road Map.
obama is in a rather weak moral position to condemn israel on reneging on its commitments if he according to you is planning to do the same with the signed agreements on the f-35 if he does not get his way
"obama is in a rather weak moral position to condemn israel on reneging on its commitments if he according to you is planning to do the same with the signed agreements on the f-35 if he does not get his way " No, because all military sales to foreign governments include a clause in the contract that allows the executive branch to suspend that sale in the national interest. Obama need only invoke that clause and the sale does not go through, but at no stage is he actually reneging on that agreement i.e. he will be invoking a clause that is included in all such agreements.
isarel conditioned the acceptance of the roadmap, on the palestinians uprooting the terror infrastructure and accepting israel as a jewish state as did usa and the un 60 years ago abbas has not lifted a finger to do so in gaza. in fact he names squares after terrorists in the west bank. he is either a terror supporter, or impotent, not a good person for israel to make concessions to.
it was accepted by israel conditionally, the palestinians to this day have not fulfilled the conditions
for 65 years has a price.Continuing to refuse them also has a price. Ball is well and truly in their court.
What hipocrisy ? what propaganda ! are you able to tell us about Israel's borders ? no. Palestinians know exactly which borders their State is going to have. Israel refuses them. Israel uses military force against the palestinians to expand.
Look at any Pal map. It extends from Lebanon to the Gulf of Aqaba, from the Med to the Dead, and includes Acre, Tel Aviv, Ashdod, Ashkelon, etc.
You obviously know many many palestinians...hilarious !
You know as well as I do that the Palestinians have made their proposal well know i.e. the border is to be the 1967 lines, and if Israel wants to change those lines then Israel has to offer an equal amount of territory in exchange. But the key is that this has to be an Israeli OFFER, it can not be an Israeli DEMAND. Israel, by contrast, has never said where it wants that border line to be.
You must be mistaken, you're talking about Likoud's electoral program.