U.S.: Settlement freeze will be discussed during direct peace talks
Obama administration moves to address Palestinian concerns over Israeli freeze on settlement construction, due to expire in September.
By Natasha Mozgovaya and Haaretz Service Tags: Israel news Middle East peace HamasThe possibility of extending, or ending Israel's moratorium on West Bank settlement construction will be discussed within the context of upcoming direct Middle East peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, a senior U.S. official said Monday.
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Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and U.S. President Barack Obama |
| Photo by: Archive |
The comment by U.S. State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley came after Palestinian officials had said in recent days that the resumption of settlement construction beyond the September 26 moratorium expiration date would cause the Palestinian Authority to withdraw from the recently accounted direct peace talks.
Earlier Monday, Haaretz reported that PA President Mahmoud Abbas had warned that renewed Israeli construction in settlements after the end of the construction freeze in late September would bring the newly-launched direct negotiations to a grinding halt.
Abbas conveyed the message in letters sent to U.S. President Barack Obama, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and the High Representative of the European Union on Foreign Policy, Catherine Ashton.
Asked to comment on Abbas' recent demands, Crowley said Monday that the United States believed that "once that negotiation starts, it will be incumbent upon both the Israelis and Palestinians to avoid steps that can complicate that negotiation."
"Settlements are an important issue," Crowley said, adding that Washington expected "to address settlements, as well as the other crucial final-status issues within the context of the negotiation."
The Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs added that the United States was "very mindful of the moratorium and the fact that it comes up for a reconsideration during Septembe," adding, however, that this issue will be discussed "within the negotiation. That's why we want to get the negotiation."
"None of these issues can be resolved outside of this negotiation," Crowley said, adding that the U.S. was "very mindful of the Palestinian position. We're now into direct negotiations; we expect that both parties will do everything within their power to create an environment for those negotiations to continue constructively."
Israel and the Palestinians accepted on Friday an invitation by the United States and other powers to restart direct talks on Sept. 2 in a modest step toward forging a peace deal within 12 months to create a Palestinian state and peacefully end one of the world's most intractable conflicts.
Israel, however, has time and again stressed the importance it saw of arriving at the negotiations table "without preconditions," in what appeared to be as a direct rebuke of that Palestinian call to halt settlement construction as a condition for talks to take place.
In a possible reference to Palestinian demands over West Bank settlement construction, Vice Prime Minister Silvan Shalom told the Quartet's Mideast envoy Tony Blair during their Monday meeting that Israel was "pleased about the renewal of direct negotiations with the Palestinians," but adding that preconditions could cause an early end to such an attempt.
"It must be understood that setting preconditions even before the sides had a chance to sit at the negotiations table will bring about the failure of those talks," the vice PM said, adding that late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat "never presented preconditions and Abbas never demanded it from Olmert."
"The Palestinians must recognize the importance of direct talks where the two sides can present the demands and claims," Shalom said.
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One wonders what did Abass freeze?All the vile incitement goes on.All the lies taught to the children go on. Abass does not want peace because if he did he would have behaved totally differently.
The building freeze ends on Sept. 26th. It does not "come up for reconsideration". If Netanyahu reinstates a freeze, he will have no less than a civil war on his hands.
No israel, No Palestine. One State Solution is the best for all. One Man, One Vote, Equality for all inhabitants. Equal Pay for Equal Work, Equal Water Rights. No Apartheid, No Segregation...A Very True Secular Democrac Let us call it: “State of Holy Land”.
This is an invitation to make peace and change the history of bloody wars in our region, like the old testament said "...Harvotaihim Le Ettim," can you relate to this?
Should Israel set some preconditions? What about recognition of Israel's right to exist.? What about cessation of rocket attacks from Gaza? What about returning Shalit?
Enough of this. They lost the wars. They should settle for less.
A pre-condition attempts to determine (part of) the outcome of negotiations before they are held. If Israel DOES freeze construction of new settlements, this does not determine the outcome of borders etc., so I wouldn't call the Palestinian demand a pre-condition. If Israel does NOT freeze construction, this DOES change the outcome of the talks. Such a freeze is therefore not a "pre-condition" to the talks, but a necessary condition for the talks to be held. Netanyahu no doubt is clever enough to understand this, but the rest of the Israeli public may not be. Even some members of the Israeli government seem to get confused by this word game.
Land grab by Israel is far less than good faith. It maybe a better idea to craft a one state solution for both sides.
These talks represent another round of shams, lies, and deceipts. They will not bring peace or justice for the Palestinians for the simple reason that Israel is not interested in anything other than expanding its hold over the West Bank. If there is one issue that proves that Obama is a fraud it is his consistent sucking up to Israel, regardless of the pressures that are on him. Change we can believe in they said! It's going to be more of the same. My God save us all from these imperialist bigots!
Aren't we all exhausted with the same story. How long are we going to pretend that the Palestinians are equal partners in "negotiations" when they are not heads of state. If we really want peace we must make difficult decisions and end this political time wasting.
"It must be understood that setting preconditions even before the sides had a chance to sit at the negotiations table will bring about the failure of those talks," the vice PM said, adding that late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat "never presented preconditions and Abbas never demanded it from Olmert." Exactly and during the Oslo"Peace Process", Israel buffed up their settlement expansion two times the amount they did from 1977 to 1992. In the end, Arafat was given cottage cheese of territory and he in no way could accept that as a state. Abbas is seeking not to fall into that trap, but I'm afraid Mr Abbas is delusional because Israel has destroyed the 2 state solution as a result of their settlement enterprise and Judaization of East Jerusalem. One state is the only solution.
And what will be the natural consequences of a one state solution? Well, why don't we take a look and see what happened last time there was a one state solution. The obvious answer is Civil War. And we must ask ourselves, who will win? The side with nuclear weapons or the side with rrocks?
One state solution has been there since 1949, minus Gaza and WB. Todays question is should it also include WB.
the thing that makes arabs so arrogant is that they never have to take responsibility for anything. arab arab muslims and other muslims can go around and blow people to dust without ever taking responsibility for their acts. in the us alone, islamists hijacked four planes, turning them into missiles, and blew up the pentagon and the twin towers, mass murdering three thousand people.
Keep it Israel or lose your heritage and gift from G-d.
Stop living in the past and work for a better tomorrow for everyone living currently there. Help give Palestinians a better life then they will be afraid of losing it. Most wars start with people have more to gain than lose, giving up you life means less if you in a living hell.
But the highest court in Israel does. That court has alraedy decided that The West Bank --formerly Judea Samaria (biblical nonsense written by Jews for Jews)-now defucnt is "Held under Belligerent Occupation" by Israel. Ergo it cannot be Sovereign Israeli terrority because the sovereign cannot occupy it,s own land. Hey --take your argument to the IHCJ.They made the ruling--not me.
TOO RIGHT MOMMA LEGA AND IT WILL REMAIN SO FOR EVER. IT IS BY THE GRACE OF GOD AN OUR INHERITANCE
We no longer live in the Middle-Ages.
Since when has God been in the real estate business???!!!
Israel pulls out of Gaza, then what happens? A terrorist organization hell bent on destroying it is created. How can some of you really believe that Israel should hand all the West Bank on a platter to the other half of the same Palestinians?! History says `Israel beware`! Abbas has less ability to control his Fatah than Haniyeh has with Hamas! I would not trust the Palestinian leadership as far as I could throw them. Wake up people! Israel deserves to be cautious and disbelieving!
The US is 'very mindful of the Palestinian position' and there you have it. Israel must be sacrificed as subtley as possible to meet the demands of Arab Refugees who have adopted the name of being 'Palestinians'. Is there any more convincing reason to doubt the subtle moves by Obama towards the ultimate 'destruction of the State of Israel' when so very mindful of 'Palestinian' needs. ....?
they dont want that. Just gimmee, gimmee. Talk about blinded useful idiots.
1) Jerusalem: A new version of the Clinton Plan will be adopted. 2) Refugees: US, Israel, EU, Japan, China and oil rich gulf Arab states finance resettling the refugees in the West Bank and Gaza. Build houses and provide monetary compensations. 3)Israel may annex large settlement blocks and provide the PA with comparable equal value lands. All other settlements will be dismantled. Settlers who lose their homes will be compensated by same bodies settling the refugees. 4) Palestine will be a fully sovereign demilitarized state with a token police force. 5) Israel and Palestine will form a federation, or a joint congress, with international supervision, to handle ports, customs, security, water rights and safe passage between Gaza and the west Bank. 6) As a result of this agreement all prisoners will be freed. All prisoners will sign an agreement not to engage in any future action that will endanger the peace. 7) No Israeli armed forces will be stationed east of the adjusted border line, unless requested or agreed upon by both parties. 8) The so called "Security wall" will be dismantled. and replaced by joint border patrols.
to Jews who have survived every dangerous war by war waged upon them by Great rab Forces since 1948
1. Not sure about E Jlem. Very tricky subject. How do you make it a Pal capital without dividing Jlem & kicking our Jews who live there? 2-3. Very practical approach to land swaps & refugees. But if you invite the current generations of ex refugees to suddenly take off from wherever they had long ago settled, & move into WB & Gaza, I wonder how many will actually do so. (unless WB & Gaza will seem like an improvement from where they are now) 4. Palestine will have to at least initially and probably for a while be the demilitarized state. 5. I very much doubt Israel will want to do anything with international supervision, especially in the fields of port, customs & security. Lets face it, we should all understand why. Too many intangibles Israel can`t trust, not in today`s international community (read UN) 6-7. Reasonable, I presume true peace agreement would dictate so 8. If security wall will go precisely along the negotiated border, why dismantle it. The absolute trust on both sides will not magically appear with the ink on the paper. 9. Please explain only one more item to the fool here. So we had twisted the arms, appealed to everyone`s senses, settled all of the issues above one way or the other and everyone is happy. Than what? We build the safe passage from the WB to where?
Fahmi That's all pretty sensible, and i notice that Abbas doesn't get involved with the same posturing rhetoric regarding refugees, which has always been one of the major stumbling blocks as the numbers of refugees has grown exponentially. Some of the bordering countries/states are going to have to take some responsibility for settling refugees as well. Its also possible that countries such as Iraq and Iran may need to make statements about the expulsion of jews (express regret but no apology/compensation etc) in order to start to square the circle. The dismantling of barriers and de-militarising of the west bank are obvious necessities and mutual trust and co-operation need to be built up over time, its likely that the barriers and de-militarisation will take time too. I think Jerusalem and Hebron could be major stumbling blocks as the negotiations needed could be political suicide for Netanyahu and Abbas.
The world is not going to pay. Tax yourselves. The current PA Security force is inadequate for even the rest of the West Bank and could never control or police Gaza. They need 10 times what they already have at a minimum. A customs union is just a euphemism for no sovereignty for Palestine unless they get to ban weapons imports into Israel and get to decide who can enter Israel as Israel would Palestine. Water has to be independent for both sides. Resources like water have to be based on population and regimented by treaty, maybe with outside arbitration. And at least at first, the wall has to be moved to the border and Palestine has and needs the right to its own border control, including disarming hostile non-Palestinians. Reality sucks if you want something that might work.
no federation under any circumstances. no international supervision under any circumstances. no dismantling of the security fence. palestinian refugees should be encouraged to stay in host countries which should give palestininans full citizenship. some compensation should be given as set out.
Lets assume, being optimists, that Abbas and Bibi evantually come to some updated version of the Clinton deal that Areafat torpedoed over his insane "Right of Return" demand. This is another waste of time without a CREDIBLE PLAN, in advance, to impose this deal on Hamastan, its rocket arsenal, and its 20,000 armed jihadis whose leadership rejects any peace with Israel. Israel has no incentive to make any "painful concessions" without an airtight guarantee that Gaza will go along. Obviously, a "shelf agreement" allowing a WB State while Gaza keeps fighting Israel is a non-starter, as is "Land for Hudna". Israel is not going to fight Abbas' civil war for him, and he can't do it without a level of PA firepower Israel will never allow. Who's going to clean out 25,000 rejectionist Hamas and its arsenal from Gaza? This needs a PLAN as a first step in talks, because Abbas doesn't speak for all the "Palestinians", only the WB half. Bibi, as PM, does speak for all Israelis. Otherwise, peace talks are meaningless. GOT IT???
Thank you. This is a topic that has been talked about with Arafat. Since the West Bank and Gaza are not geographically connected, Israel will allow passage between the two geographical areas. This of course is based on the assumption that Fatah and Hamas will reconcile differences, and make this step necessary if at all. The passage itself may be an underground train or simply a highway the Palestinians will be able to use to travel between Gaza and the West Bank. .
for a durable peace, transfer all Arabs west of the Jordan over to southern Lebanon; fund their resettlement from remuneration from the arab countries for confiscated Jewish properties.
1) Jerusalem: A new version of the Clinton Plan will be adopted. 2) Refugees: US, Israel, EU, Japan, China and oil rich gulf Arab states finance resettling the refugees in the West Bank and Gaza. Build houses and provide monetary compensations. 3)Israel may annex large settlement blocks and provide the PA with comparable equal value lands. All other settlements will be dismantled. Settlers who lose their homes will be compensated by same bodies settling the refugees. 4) Palestine will be a fully sovereign demilitarized state with a token police force. 5) Israel and Palestine will form a federation, or a joint congress, with international supervision, to handle ports, customs, security, water rights and safe passage between Gaza and the west Bank. 6) As a result of this agreement all prisoners will be freed. All prisoners will sign an agreement not to engage in any future action that will endanger the peace. 7) No Israeli armed forces will be stationed east of the adjusted border line, unless requested or agreed upon by both parties. 8) The so called "Security wall" will be dismantled. and replaced by joint border patrols.
Thousands of missiles at Israel are not to be mentioned by them or the UN unless Israelis dare to return fire. Well think again,you want,you work for it ,for a change.
It will be the discussion for keeping the talks or not. Obama, pull Bibi's strings and make him freeze.
the lack of israelis posting here should scare german owned and anti israel haaretz... we in israel do not buy this rag.
I know Americans are supposed to just shut up unless they are to the right of Netanyahu and Lieberman. But why do you post ff you hate Haaretz so much?
They are paid advertising money based on number of posts and hits. Are you that dumb. If you hate Haaretz so much--and want them out of business then you know what to do.
There you can gloat.
Since 1967, Israel has a habit of building settlements under the fictitious right of conquest and later coming to its senses and bulldozing those same settlements after forcibly ethnically cleansing its own citizens from the settlements. This pattern was followed in Sinai to make peace with Egypt and later was done unilaterally in Gaza to save resources and focus on seizing West bank land.. Israeli politicians call this practice of seizing land, building settlements, then ethnically cleansing those same settlements, and bulldozing them "painful concessions." This is a curious practice.
Now comes the preconditions on Israel. Obama is intent upon israel committing national suicide so that Arabs will love him. If the Palestinians want a state, they have Jordan. THAT is the Precondition!!! The squatters and their Leader Abbas will finally realize its hopeless for them to chase a fake dream and go to Jordan to their final destination Obama by then will be long gone out of the White House!!
Israel also has to be mindful of Negotiations with those who are NOT who they say they are. Arab Refugees who lived in Palestine are NOT authentic 'Palestinians' true natives of Ancient PALESTINE and therefore Israel must have Preconditions too, as with exactly whom she is . negotiating and they are NOT 'Palestinians' but authentically Palestinian/ARAB Refugees.
Ah Chafeeka, you'll never learn.
the second you have a definition of what a Jew is, you can complain about what a Palestinian is.
If the Palestinians want a state, they have Jordan?.
So no matter what ISRAEL SHOULD NOT TAKE ANY NOTICE.Therefore BUILD BABY BUILD! It is needed for the Israeli population who's country it is,belongeth NOT to the Palis but ...end the rest you know.After all what is all the arguments discassions about? Just some apartments....and the naysayers think Israel is ONE GIANT COUNTRY when in effect it is a tiny strip of land being reduced by the Palestinians with their demands.JUST THINK OF THE MILLIONS of VAST Arab lands surrounding Israel.SORRY I JUST CALL IT GREED in asking what in effect is an unobtainable and no matter how BHO swills it he ain't going to be able to make BB to materialize this ridiculous DEMAND
From September 2nd and for as long as the talks last (much shorter than you think), Obama will be in charge. He's the one with foreign aid and stealth jet fighters in his pocket, and satellite surveillance to see who is cheating.
iran knows that obama will be in charge. iran does not seem at all impressed.
This breaks my heart. I wish Abbas had said no to these idiotic talks. Please for the love of God don't sell the Palestinian cause and don't cave in to demands that will only bury whatever is left of PA's dignity if there is any left. The Obama administration and Natanyahu don't lost much sleep over this and could frankly care less.
The Pals have bupkis
why sould these talks talk about pre 67 borders....the arabs tried to wipe them off the map and did not suceed.. Israel gave back plenty...so why now after the egyptian land and gaza and golan heights should they give up anything else? east jerusalem...(never) west bank...some matbe....they won this...why? ....why?
Sounds medieval..
...that it has learnt its lesson, or so we thought, is about to repeat its "progressive" form of racism again. Shame on you, Obama/Clinton/Mitchell that you, the "liberals" of America, expect Jews in their own homeland to do what Jews in America have been freed from for the past half a century: Formal racism, discrimination and segregation.
West Bank is NOT Israel. Read the 4th Geneva Convention. Read UNSCR 242 and numerous other UNSC Resolutions.
jews should be able to live wherever they want. but they cannot build a STATE wherever they want. duh
Don't believe my faith as a Jew says I have the right to build ANYWHERE ON EARTH. And even in my own homeland my faith doesn't tell me I have more rights then others? I believe Judiasm is founded on equality especially since we have felt such hate and persecution by others. So, I'm not sure how this is racism. Could it be that sharing (even if it is ours) is what true Judiasm emobies?
never mind UNSCR 242, read what Gos has said,or, is He irrevelant?
Where does UNSCR 242 say it is?
in the WB? Go get Palestinian permission. You want to build in my backyard? You get my permission. Telling you that you can't build on land you don't own is not racism.
Recognize a Jewish state and Israel's right to exist, and building in West Bank will stop next day. Netanyahu may well prove all the haters wrong. Just like only Nixon could open relations with China. Remember Sharon's 'bout face? Lets make a deal, but dont think Israel will be a sucker.
The latest chapter in the ongoing saga of - "How Can We Screw 'Em Some More While the World Watches"! Ahhhhh...but it'll be "Oh poor us, everyone hates us...sighhh....we are SO-ooooh picked on" once the shit hits the fan in its aftermath!
Please explain what a Pal is when writing in the context of Israel. Do you mean friend. If you are refering to a Palestinian please write Palestinian otherwise you are inviting others to start insulting Israelis in a like manner and Jew likewise and I do not think that would be a good idea. So do you think that you could at least attemp to be civil and polite?
PA: only you stand to lose.
American media has reported that Abbas will pull out of the talks if construction resumes. The average American may not care about the Jordan Valley and Jerusalem but they will become fed up with Israel if the freeze ends. Maybe Mark Regev can convince them that building isn't really building when it is natural growth or remodelling. That would be a tough sell if video of new building makes it onto the news.
A pre-condition attempts to determine (part of) the outcome of negotiations before they are held. If Israel DOES freeze construction of new settlements, this does not determine the outcome of borders etc., so I wouldn't call the Palestinian demand a pre-condition. If Israel does NOT freeze construction, this DOES change the outcome of the talks. Such a freeze is therefore not a "pre-condition" to the talks, but a necessary condition for the talks to be held. Netanyahu no doubt is clever enough to understand this, but the rest of the Israeli public may not be. Even some members of the Israeli government seem to get confused by this word game.
Was it not the same Mr. Crowley who denounced Israel for the continuation of settlement expansion, along with his seniors Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Biden who indeed condemned it, a few months ago?
"United States believed that "once that negotiation starts, it will be incumbent upon both the Israelis and Palestinians to avoid steps that can complicate that negotiation." " Who is this man kidding. The Palestinians have nothing to lose by not participating as they have probably lost everything anyway trying to bargin from a position of weakness with two parties who don't in fact want the process of talking endlessly about "peace" to ever end.
Stopping the rocket attacks will be condition number one for Israel, stopping the settlements will be condition number one for Palestine. Recognising Israel’s right to exist will be condition number two for Israel, ending the military occupation (back to the internationally agreed borders) and blockade will be condition number two for Palestine. Israel and Palestine agreeing that some militant nutter shooting a rocket, or gunning down a few people at a mosque, because they are insane with hatred or have a vested interest in continued conflict is NOT a repudiation of the entire agreement by the leaders who signed the agreement should be international condition number one – to prevent each side reneging on their agreement for their own selfish gains (as has happened in every single previous peace deal, where neither 'side' has ever abided by its obligations. Neither side. Ever). Other things may be negotiable but these things will not be because they should not be. Anyone who tries to claim they are not coming to the table with at least the first two preconditions each is lying.
Egypt and Jordan and now Abbas, let the rest of arab world come to their sense and make peace with Israel their neighbour. It is now the right time as Iran is cooking something for all of the ME. Lets hold hands and look far to the common enemy Iran.
What might we know about this new drone? Must we depend entirely upon Iranian claims? Or could we all get a glimpse of it's capabilities beyond the puffery? We might, but then, for reasons that are hard to fathom, we might not be allowed to know. The photo of the 'killer' drone shows it flying away, so that the intake for it's propulsion is masked. In Arab News today a photo was published showing a factory floor, with a bright red, not grey, drone in the fore-front. It had a clearly sub-sonic intake for the engine. Way in back was another drone, a grey one like the one in the photo on this page. It is near head on, and it shows a major difference between the red drone. It's air intake is round, with a shock cone in it. Clearly a super-sonic aircraft. Speed, increases the problem and reduces the time during which defense systems may respond. it appears that Iran does not want us to know the real capabilities of their system or the publicity photo would not be positioned to hide the shock cone intake. Clearly this observation causes some concern with censors. Not just Iranian censors.
recognition of israel as a jewish state, legally sovereing, historically and presently legitimate. renounce all terrorism. Declare that if they resort to terrorism, israel reserves the right to respond in the harshest terms. accept complete demilitarization. pal cops only allowed sidearms. If a peace deal is signed and the pals break their promises, I believe israel should squash them utterly and forever. Enough is enough. as for the jew haters on this site, go f_k yourselves.
some day you will be squashed forever.That is sure. Ben Hur, ridicules name, total fiction it makes you self-confidence and strength feeling ?
able-bodied men used to be employed in construction in Jewish settlements. But since Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, under pressure from President Barack Obama, announced the settlement building freeze in October, much of the work has disappeared. So the result, thousands of Palestinians who work in construction across the West Bank are feeling the pinch. They’re annoyed that no one seems to be paying attention to the impact on their lives of what they see as a pointless exercise while the Palestinian leaders are fed and supported from head to toe by Europeans and Americans. A Lot of resentment is building up by the Palestinian families with 8 - 9 children who didnt mind being employed by the settlers which in return they were proudly being able to support and feed their families. Now they sit around sip tea all day as Palesitnian Authority doesnt create any jobs for these folks!
You are no supporter of Israel; otherwise, you would not write such drivel. The Palestinians have been making demand after demand, and have attempted to delegitimize Israel around the world. They teach their children to hate Jews in general and Israel in particular. They have destroyed Jewish sites. They have, in essence, not lived up to previous agreements. While the Israelis have frozen their settlements, the so-called Palestinians, a non-existing people, are building entire cities on disputed land. Why do you not express concern for the nearly one million Jewish refugees kicked out of Arab countries, who were robbed of everything. Israel took them all in. They are owed compensation. The Jewish Homeland was to be the area covered by Jordan and Israel, including Judea and Samaria. Jordan was cut away for the Arabs. The 1947 Partition cut away more land from Israel, but even then the Arabs still attacked Israel in 1948. The 1948 lines were armistice lines, never borders, as the Arabs never recognized Israel. Why should Israel return to armistice lines. Why don't you complain about those countries that took land by force, and not in a defensive war?
this negotiations will fail, netanyahu and liberman are not men of peace, what they offer for peace is much less than what barak offered in 2000 and less than what olmert offered in 2008, there will be no progress in peace this way. as a palestinian im with one state solution, we can co-exist, have no problem to live in a building with liberman or even sharon if we are considered and treated equally. we are all humans, we are not born to hate or fight each other, we are taught that in israeli and palestinian communities. i say the hell with abbas,haniye, netanyahu, liberman and all the others, we can make a difference in the daily life, this is the solution, dont think that there is another solution
This is the thing about Israel: one winds up with conversations that are the intellectual equivalent of 'if I were the richest man in the world...' I'm not the richest man in the world, and Israel has never actually stopped building settlements -- so why are we talking as if either were true?
Yaba daba daba daba daba deeba deeba dah. If I were a . . . It's not about reality.
Abbas should not have caved in. He will get no where and will prove Hamas right. He should wait for a change of Israeli government. This one will just pretend to be negotiating. Palestinians learned nothing from past experience with useless Dennis Ross.
Still shocked what I saw in Hebron when I visited earlier this month.... Stop the building of settlements in the West Bank and give the Palestinians a chance to build up their economy!
Not antagonizing Hamas could very well be Abbas's top priority,if the door in fact is open on both sides to begin talks without any pre conditions.
Not antagonizing Hamas could very well be Abbas's top priority,if the door in fact is open on both sides to begin talks without any pre conditions.
they want a deal upfront,done by others, with no reciprocity,not even security guarrantees.
Build, then ethnically cleanse it's own people, then bulldoze. Sinai, then Gaza. This will likely be repeated in the West Bank, too. Will Israel allow those who want to stay as Palestinian Jews to do so? Probably not, based on the historical pattern.
Since when has the cessation of war crimes (population transfer, illegal annexation etc by Israel) been something subject to negotiation? With the UN as part of the Quartet and noting that each member of the quartet recognises the above fact via their approval of the relevant UN resolutions, how can any other approach be taken than one that sees the demand that Israel cease all illegal activity as defined by thge resolutions?
There has been more pre-meeting posturing than usual, I suppose, but we, and if there is a God in heaven, the media, should just tune out and let the games begin! Israel is in the enviable position of having all the cards, and if nothing is agreed to, Israel wins. But Israel is also in a bad place because the world knows full well that only it can move the process forward. the Palestinians have nothing left to give. Israel has it all and better stop laughing. The larger world is turning away.
and for good reason...how can such an intelligent educated people be such mindless fools? if israel keeps building, the one state solution will be the only solution. do they honestly expect palestinians, who have lived on the land far longer than the settlers, to live in ghettos forever? or are they waiting for an oppurtunity to kick them out forever? come on jews, come out with it, show your hand....let the world know what the heck you want.
Settlements should be stopped and bulldozed, completely removed!
Mind your own business.Swiss are very good at not seeing.
Did i get you right? Youre comparing our ban of minarets with the 60 year old supressing of the palestinian people? With the 60 year old theft of occupied territory? etc. etc. In switzerland everyone can build a mosque at any place where it would be allowed to build a church or a synagogue, just without a minaret. Travel the world and ask educated people for the most democratic country in the world. How many will mention switzerland, and how many Israel?
As expected, each party is trying to find flimsy and petty excuses to exit the negotiations whilst maintaining domestic support. Neither Abbas nor Netanyahu is genuinely committed to peace, and the situation becomes more desperate once the rogue and vile Hamas is brought into the picture. It is time for the Israels to part ways with Netanyahu and Co, and for the Pals to do what they should have done many many years ago and get rid of both Fatah and Hamas, and allow a more peace-oriented, less extreme crop of politicans to rise to the occasion.
Discussions without results. Discussions without justice. And soon, discussions without peace. This entire process is a disgraceful farce!
"Settlement freeze will be discussed during direct peace talks" = 'Settlement expansion to burgeon during direct peace talks.
the settlement freeze expires just over a month from today. they've had a long time to think about this. the issue should have been settled long ago, if they genuinely wish for the peace process to go forward.
The Palestinians should have started negotiations a long time ago when the settlement freeze was first started. What did their intransigence toward starting negotiations get them? Nothing!
The idea of a palestinian state is a non starter. It will never happen and why waste time talking about it? And even if the idea had legs, Abbas has no ability to negotiate in good faith.
Israel, however, has time and again stressed "the importance it saw of arriving at the negotiations table "without preconditions," in what appeared to be as a direct rebuke of that Palestinian call to halt settlement construction as a condition for talks to take place." Did I not just raed on another thread that netanyahu claimed he will only talk security issues before anything else is discussed. Say again about Palestinians making pre conditions.
Barbaque: From what I read you are a shining bright example of judaism, I am right? Would you call that "The Solution" to the Arab Problem? Let's revisit how Israel was born, nah too easy, your memory only remembers the wrongs done to you. Ummm. Sound just like a PAL. Why do you hate so much? Israel needs to keep building, I guess the Pals need to keep what?? explain to us..
Obama knows he had gotten burnt by Abbas and now trying to suck up to Israel. he delivered Israel to Abbas, he had gotten israel to once again agree to another pal arab state within its borders, put a lengthily hold on home building, announcements against israel policies and jewish home buildings, announcements aganst jewish sovereignty in jerusalem, removed road blocks, brought in huge revenues and businesses to the west bank, etc, and all that was gained for the last 2 years, is nothing. But now another US president realizes Abbas and the pal arabs have no interest in peace, no interst in recognition of a jewish state. never mind Abbas inability to even deliver one to the arabs
I'm not trying to be smart or funny Lee, but in your view what are and where are these borders you mention? I'm just curious
The Arab peace plan has been on the table since 2002. PS settelment construction has not stopped, the freeze only applies to new construcion , not construion that had already started and is still goining strong.
That is why, while negociation, More settlements will spring here and there, more settlers will move pre-fab houses, existing settlements will witnedd building booms. He will tell the world through Fox news and Rupert Murdoch outlets that he is negaciating with good faith. It is the Palestinians who are demanding. He will try to sabotage the talks if he finds out that his tricks are not working. He will demand the Jewish State clause, I.E. get rid of all Palestinians living in Israel proper. If it does not work either, he will trigger a war with Lebanon or Gaza or as a last chance Iran. This time Netanyahyu is watched closely by Prs. Obama who is no fool. He knows Netanyahu and his dirty trick. Clinton will be on the watch as well. She is a tough cookie too. If Israel stalls this direct talk, it is most likely that it will turn into ISRA-HELL.
No Palestinians is living in Israel, they are living in PA. Israeli Arabs are living in Israel.
No more free lunch. If Abbas wants a construction freeze imposed on 450,000 Israelis, like anything else negotiated, he is going to have to pay for it with something of equal value. That is how negotiations work. A fair price for Israel to demand - substantial monetary compensation for every Israeli family impacted by the "freeze" - retroactive to 10 months ago (since Abbas never did negotiate seriously in return). $50,000/month seems fair. Maybe Obama can pick up the tab, paying it out of the PA subsidy, which will discourage Abbas footdragging. Negotiations can not be conducted on the backs of 450,000 Israelis while the PLO pays nothing.
The thing which makes Israel so arrogant is that they never have to take responsibility for the things they do. America always runs interference for them on the political side and provides whatever money and weapons are needed on the military side. With Israeli "influence" on the American congress so pervasive, the question becomes one of who is in control. In the long run, it doesn't really matter since between them Israel and America together have killed far more civilians in the mideast that it dwarfs the number of people killed on 9/11. Isn't it ironic that together, Israel and America sit in judgement upon their victims, calling them terrorists, and deciding what their futures will be.
With friends like these...
It is America what has killed far more people around the globe in the 20th century that what Muslims have ever dream of killing. Most people killed by America have never threatened America. As a matter of fact Miss Durson the "country you are living has God in its side" as B Dylan used to sing. ...and we must add "with the taxes you pay...." Just dont comply too much because it pays off to live in a big imperialist country enforcing democracy to the indians all around the globe. Israel has nothing to be in this equation. Israel is a tiny country usually defending itself. A tiny country defending itself in a "barbarian neighborhood" must use preemtive strike which some times kills innocents. However, survival is not imperialism. Israel fights for survival. Your country fights for imperialist hegemony. Got the difference?
Israel has never slaughtered civilians like your buddy Yasser Arafat, Saddam Hussein, King Khalid, or Khaddify ever did. In fact, intra Araba fighting has killed millions. Israel never killed more than about 20,000 Arabs, all in military wars or in the war against terrorism. You are nothing but an anti-Semite because you lie about the Jews, and see no evil in the world except the Jews .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vae_victis
Are you so ignorant to understand the situation? Is you entire argument about how many people got killed in the line of fire? Do you not think if the Palestinians were in control that the israelis would suffer far more greater than any Gazain today? Look at the way they treat themselves. Dont kid yourself. Dont fall for the liberal media... they are playing on you.
Natallie - your comment made me think of that old movie title. Israel is a tiny country that has virtually the full superpower of the United States. Given the natural tendency of all nations to strut as much as they can, how could this power disparity in favor of Israel have any other result than it has?
Haaretz talkbacks are like preaching to the choir, its an echo chamber of agreement of the lefties. The real battle is the with right wingers on Jpost and Ynet. I need your help over there. Can you spare some time?
It's just not the US politicians that support Israel it's the majority of people and for that matter most of Europe that backs Israel. The Arabs and Muslims will never accept a western entity in their midst regardless of Israel actions. Is is a beautiful and highly developed country unlike most of it's neighboring countries. Go to Tel Aviv and enjoy the nightlife, it's great. Otherwise you can enjoy Sharia in one of the many Muslim countries that it's own population is fleeing to live in the US and Europe which by the way support Israel. Israel rocks, girl....
are you stupid or joking? Lets think to the Lebanon War and Cast Lead. Just there are 2 thousand civilians, God knows how many countless have been shot dead in Gaza and the West Bank as well in times of Hudna. Israel is a terrorist regime just like the leaders you mentioned.
despite having to spend huge amounts to protect themselves from the neighbours who cannot stop slaughtering each other let alone Jews. Who you going to blame for the millions of each other the Arabs slaughtered in the last 60 years
Israel never killed more than about 20,000
The only discussions needed over settlements during the peace talks is how many weeks before Israel removes them completely and how many billions Israel will be paying in compensation for 40 years of criminal occupation.
It does not matter to Israel how many billions they should pay as compensation. USA will pay it for them. It will only cost to US tax payers.
I do not think Arab settlements should be expanded and must be dismantled for peace sake.
thart makes you a partner in crime---a criminal in other words. I support the expelling of all illeagl squatters. Post haste.
You are 100% correct Chaim, Palestinian Arabs must not continue to expand the twisted immoral settlements also known as a two state solution! They must all be dismantled to create a single state with equal rights to all Arabs and Jews.
Chaim: You think you are a wit but you are only half right.
it will be the end of PA if that happens , the palestinia people is no longer beleave in thoes games , now the game is to choose from black or white , if the PA choose other clours means they going back to square one , at the end there will be no land left to talk a bout ,
Endless talks while settlements and the barrier continue is only pulling the wool over the world's eyes. Israel has no intention of allowing the formation of an independent Palestine.
Israel,s security that is. Just because Israel keeps stealing land does not meabn the Palestinians have a right to be upset. That will all be addressed in a decade or two---or however long it takes to create the Greater Arab frei Israel. What is the problem. Cant we all just get along.
No Jew ever stole any land - go learn history and make yourself a smarter person. Denial will not advance things for people like you with same as your diology.
I do not think Israel has realized that America does not need it any longer. Not with its huge military bases in Iraq and the 50,000 US troops (advisors) still on the ground there. To say nothing of the Americans cozying up again to the Turks along with the Brits. Israel is of not a lot of consequense to either.
he can walk away from the discussions if they are not fruiful......but he will never know till he sits down at the table. Gee.....is it not about time that a Palestinian leader takes a gamble at peace...what else does he have to lose at this time. Once the Pals sit down face to face I am sure that the USA administration is going to put major pressure on the Israeli side to make a deal...for all.
The US has said on previous occasions that they expect both sides to refrain from doing anything that might impede the constructive direction of the talks. Immediately after the US issued that statement, Israel began further construction and expelling Palestinians from Sheik Jarreh and Silwan. They love this kind of language because it gives them a pretext to show their arrogance and defiance. Land of peace? Whichh will it be Israel? The answer is clear and in late Septemberer we will see the truth of that statement and at that time the international community can either take serious punitive measures against Israel for their destabilising actions that endanger the entire region or forget about portraying themselves as objective brokers.
Jerusalem? Arabs could not be trusted the last timed they ethnic cleansed the Jews out. You would like a rerun of keeping Jews out of their sacred sites? Dream on.!
Obama, your a fool for going against Israel. You know very well what will happen to the US and the World when you go against The God of Israel! The US will be ripped apart! also food shortages are right around the corner, I have no doubt of that.
The God of Israel! ?
What are you talking about? Did you even read the article?
God of Israel, huh? I used to be Catholic, until I grew up, and began to understand how religion is the cause of perhaps 95% of the world's problems. Don't rely upon a deity that most likely doesn't exist. Also, you don't want to try attacking us, either. That'd be a mistake that not even the traitors in AIPAC can spin into a positive.
It all sounds so exciting and prosperous for the people of Gaza and the Palestinians. Smiles and handshakes and jokes and talk. But a snake is a snake, and that is all there is to it. Netanyahu is a snake (actually more of a scorpion). His words and behavior create joyous anticipation of new times and good news for the Palestinians. But, a snake is a snake, is a snake. This is all a ruse and malicious deception. No good can ever come from a snake, no matter how much the snake smiles and lies to promote its own best interests. What the snake doesn't know is that its actions actually hurt Israel (and America). This is post 9-11 and everything is different. If America does not take this into account, and Israel thinks that it is business as usual, then they are in for a big surprise. It is America that will suffer in the end, as a result of their practices and the practices of Israel. Israel and America both agree that Israel is not an asset but a liability. They are both fighting yesterdays war, and have not adapted to this new and evolving situation.
He did the same with Arafat and the famous handshake in Ramallah "We will make history together Mr President - we will make Peace." Then a few days later Netanyahu began destroying Silwan. The only difference now is that the snake is in government that is truly a snakepit and his spokesman mark regev looks and speaks more like the Hindu goddess of death with so many tongues and heads it is impossible to count them.
As a fervent supporter of Israel I am quite dismayed by the refusal to extend the settlement freeze. Israel's security would not be harmed in any possible way by extending the freeze for an additional six months. Israel is bargaining with all the power and assets on its side. If Netanyahu truly desired a real peace he would extend an olive branch to Abbas by extending the freeze. What has Israel ever gained by trying to tell the Palestinians that Israel is the far stronger partner who will dictate their future to them. With the fingers of Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah getting closer and closer to the start of a war what possible harm can there be the Israel if they show the Palestinians and the world Israel is really serious about peace? Why is there this need to make the Palestinians grovel and beg for every inch?
I am amazed by your shallow moral blind-sidedness on the so-called "freeze". Over the past 10 months, 13,000 babies were born to Israeli families there, who need additional living space. Those Israelis need schools, synagogues, clinics business space. Israel's demand to continue natural growth construction within the existing footprint of only the towns that everybody knows Israel will keep (J'lem, Adumin, Etzion bloc, Ariel, Canada Park(aka Latrun) is a fair position that tortures nobody. The PLO's "total freeze" demand" is a form of terrorism that seeks to achieve what snipings and suicide bombings could not - forcing Israelis out of their homes. There should be no "freeze" after the 26th unless Israel is generously compensated by either PA concessions or a few billion bucks from Obama as restitution for double crossing Israel on the last 10 month "freeze" - no PA negotiations and no Arab world gestures - all promised by Obama and not delivered.
Abbass wasted away most of that time. It would be OK to extend the freeze as long as the talks are reasonable productive, but as soon as Abbas throws a spanner into them, let the cranes swing.
Do you know who holds all the cards? Obama! It's called money and stealth fighters, etc. etc. Obama is a very smart man and when you throw in Hillary Clinton, Abbas and Netanyahu don't stand a chance, and this is exactly the right time to wrap this up precisely for the reasons that you gave: "Iran, Syria, Hezbollah."
israel's strategic negotiation poisitions are inseparable from the palestinian's demands for the so-called "settlement freeze." netanyahu had agreed to this demand in exchange for direct negotiations with abbas. any further extention would be a de facto victory for the palestinian side. these negotiations are not simply about a few buildings. these negotiations are about the future of the state of israel, and most importantly, her security. israel cannot allow the other side, supported by the entire arab world, the eu, the un and the us, to bully her into submission. what seems to you as a minor issue, is in fact, a major issue. indeed, since you realise that iran and her proxies are closing in, you should also realise that negotiations, just like wars, need to be conducted strategically.
obama does not have more cards than any of his predecessors. quite to the contrary. he is facing a looming nuclear crisis with iran.
Iran is not making nukes. No crisis for the US is pending or looming. The US and Obama actually have faced real crises about nukes. The only crisis is in your mind and John Bolton's mind.
You steal another people's land and then pretend that in negotiations you are the weaker partner while your leaders treat the Palestinians like slaves asking for some bread and water. You deprive them of dignity and hope and then have the nerve to complain they won't make more concessions to you. They have nothing left to give! The oppressed of centuries passed has now willingly and happily become the oppressor.
Negotiations will be totally meaningless, if the subject being deliberated- Territory/ final borders- is being chomped gradually by the occupation. Soon there will not be an actual subject, to say the least, and the two negotiating parties will be holding a dialogue, a friendly one, about something that no longer exists. For this to work, both parties must refrain from taking any action to impact results on the ground. In this sense then if there is a freeze now it should remain in effect.
No borders, no peace. Why waste the time? Without borders everything else is meaningless...unless that's the zionist intent. Salaam/Shalom
Lou: What many people writing their opinions here don't realize is who they are dealing with. Between President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton they will have Abbas and Netanyahu tied up so quickly they won't know what hit them. Obama and Clinton are very smart people and our foreign aid is the catalyst that turns no's into yes's right before your eyes. Obama has the Israelis and the Palestinians over a barrel and he knows it. A map is just around the corner.
Lou: What many people writing their opinions here don't realize is who they are dealing with. Between President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton they will have Abbas and Netanyahu tied up so quickly they won't know what hit them. Obama and Clinton are very smart people and our foreign aid is the catalyst that turns no's into yes's right before your eyes. Obama has the Israelis and the Palestinians over a barrel and he knows it. A map is just around the corner.
The 'pre-conditions' jing-jang continues. Unacceptable for the Palestinian is the 'precondition' to continu building settlements, to Israel this an unacceptable 'pre-condition' of the Palestinians. Stalemate again. Who is right? The Palestinians, since Israel signed the Road Map, phase 1, which freezes settlement expansion, an Israeli commitment. So, stop fooling around and negotiating on already agreed points. Let the Palestinians have their own already agreed state and start trying to live in peace. For future generation's sake
You are right my friend but I do not believe the Palestinians are going to get anything nice. Frustration and terrorism is what's comming.
Let me tell you sonething, you are missing a very important point the same way the PLO and arab community have been doing regarding the freeze. Now, you listen very carefully:-- Israel promised to free building settlement for 10 months if Abbas will return to the negotiating table. Abbas kept procrastinating for 9 months and now is willing to return to the negotiating table just in time for the 10 months to end, so now he wants to walk out if the freeze is not extended after Sept. 26/10, so very convenient of him. Probably he thought he was smart and Israel will bow to US pressure & have the freeze extended. So, there we go & thats what it is all about.
Let me tell you sonething, you are missing a very important point the same way the PLO and arab community have been doing regarding the freeze. Now, you listen very carefully:-- Israel promised to free building settlement for 10 months if Abbas will return to the negotiating table. Abbas kept procrastinating for 9 months and now is willing to return to the negotiating table just in time for the 10 months to end, so now he wants to walk out if the freeze is not extended after Sept. 26/10, so very convenient of him. Probably he thought he was smart and Israel will bow to US pressure & have the freeze extended. So, there we go & thats what it is all about.
Dear Col. Cohen, I always listen very well. However, you miss a point. Israel didnot 'promise' anything about a 10 month freeze, that was already agreed in the Road Map for Peace. So, Israel first agrees, then promises and start negotiating on the already agreed promise. What you do is exactly my point: pre-condition carrousel!
Well they had better be or there will be no further talks.
Blah, blah, blah... Sounds like you're not really interested in a country.
Settlers have 2 options. Become citizens of the new Palestinian state with exactly the same status as the Arabs. The leave and go back totheir Israeli state.
Abbas stop imeditely, israel isnt interested in peace whatsover!
a good first step was voting Hamas in. a next good step was the takeover of Gaza. The best Israel can hope for right now is a peace solution with half the Pals, with Hamastan/Iran at the south. Surely you can concede this doesn't create a great incentive for Israel to feel like it can let its gards down, no?
remember last in first out
If Abbas doesn´t like it,he knows where the border is?
Barbaque: From what I read you are a shining bright example of judaism, I am right? Would you call that "The Solution" to the Arab Problem? Let's revisit how Israel was born, nah too easy, your memory only remembers the wrongs done to you. Ummm. Sound just like a PAL. Why do you hate so much? Israel needs to keep building, I guess the Pals need to keep what?? explain to us..
Exactly, he knows where HIS borders are and that is precisely why that poor excuse of a human Netanyahu need stop stop building within them!!!
No dude it's the world that does't like it and it's getting fed up with your crap ,...
This is starting to sound like a broken record...same lie over and over and over. And as soon as discussions are over, the "freeze" melts away. Israel up to it's usual dirty tricks.
NOT Israel as you incorrectly declare
Why did the Palestinians wait for NINE months?
I am sorry to say Vera, but you sound like a broken record. No matter how many times, peace discussions should always be given a chance. Your solution.....do nothing, critize, or a never-ending war solution?
Vera Gottlieb: You have no idea who you are dealing with. Between President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton an iron-clad deal will bring peace and surveillence and it will all be tied to foreign aid. It will work this time because Obama is smarter than you think.
o-bomb-a is smart. lol is this the comedy network?
Unless you're a pal.
If BOTH Jews and Arabs lived on that land, and all the Jews were only kicked off for 19 years... How are they "stealing" land which never belonged exclusively to the Palestinians?
When I was a kid I was taught that saying doesn't make it so.
If you want to believe in the Torah, the land was given to Abraham and his "seed". That means Abraham's descendants who still have black hair, dark eyes, and brown skin. The blue-eyed blondes from Europe (e.g., Netanyahu, wife #3, etc.) are not eligible.
And will never be yours.
Nobody recognizes the illegal settlements as being on Israeli land. In fact, it's on internationally recognized Palestinian land.
The land isn't "internationally recognized" as Palestinian land -- that is, it is not recognized as belonging to the Palestinians. It is recognized that final borders are to be negotiated.
cause your ansestors killed off all of ours and the remaining spead through world to save the nation. And now it's your time to die or live in peace with us. It's your choice.
Point of clarification, the UN did not actually say that everything outside the '67 borders was palestinian territory. Just that those would be the borders of Israel. The reason for this is that the UN is not interested in intra-arab politics. Is Jerusalem Palestinian? Jordanian? Turkish? All three have held it in the last hundred years.