Two teens from West Bank village arrested over Itamar massacre
Five members of Fogel family - parents and three young children - were brutally stabbed to death in their home on the settlement of Itamar last month.
By Anshel PfefferIsraeli security forces have arrested two teenage residents of the West Bank Arab village of Awarta for allegedly carrying out last month's murder of five family members in the settlement of Itamar, the lifting of a gag order revealed on Sunday.
Palestinian students Amjad Awad, 19, and Hakim Awad 18, both admitted to committing the murder.
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Amjad Awad and Hakim Awad, with the crime scene in the background. |
Five members of the Fogel family were brutally stabbed to death in their home in the West Bank settlement of Itamar on the night of March 11th. The murderers killed Ehud and Ruth Fogel, along with three of their young children, Yoav, 11, Elad, 4, and Hadas, 3 months old, before fleeing the scene.
The two suspects, who are unrelated to one another, were identified as members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine along with several members of their family.
Shin Bet investigators have at this point not identified the murder as being carried out under the auspices of the Popular Front organization. According to what is currently known, the murders were carried out independently by the two suspects.
Six additional Palestinian suspects from Awad were also arrested in connection to the crime, four of whom belong to the same family. The six purportedly aided the two alleged perpetrators in hiding the murder weapon and in suppressing additional evidence. One of the six is a member of the Popular Front organization whom the suspects supposedly asked for a weapon to carry out a terror attack. Another one of the six is a resident of Ramallah at whose home the murder weapon was hidden.
An investigation revealed that the two suspects decided that they would carry out the murder on Friday afternoon, hours before the murder was carried out. According to the investigation, the two left Awarta at nine p.m. carrying an umbrella, several knives and wire cutting shears.
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The victims of the Itamar settlement attack, 10-year-old Yoav Fogel, Udi Fogel, 37, four-year-old Elad Fogel, three-month old Hadas Fogel and Ruth Fogel, 36. |
| Photo by: Emil Salman |
According to the investigation, it took the suspects about ten minutes to cut the fence which separates the settlement of Itamar from the Palestinian village of Awarta. They climbed the security barrier at the settlement unnoticed and walked about 400 meters into the settlement. Once inside the settlement, they broke into an empty home and stole an M-16 rifle, a weapons cartridge, a vest and a helmet before proceeding to the Fogel family's home.
Before entering the house, the suspects noticed Yoav and Elad Fogel in the home's window. Yoav and Elad were the first to be stabbed after the suspect entered the home. The suspects then entered the parents' room. Ehud and Ruth tried to fight off the attackers, but were eventually overcome and stabbed to death. Ruth was also shot, but due to the weather at the time of the murder, the gunshots were not heard. The suspects fled the home, fearing that the gunshots had been heard.
Outside of the home, the suspects realized that their gunshots had gone unnoticed and they had not yet been discovered. Amjad Awad subsequently reentered the home in order to steal an additional M-16 rifle that was there. Back inside the parents' room, Awad noticed three-month-old Hadas and stabbed her to death. While leaving the home once more, the suspect noticed that there were more children but apparently figured that he was running out of time. The lives of Roi Fogel, 8, and Yishai Fogel, 2, were spared.
The two suspects escaped the settlement at around 11 pm. An hour and a half later, twelve-year-old Tamar Fogel returned home from a youth group meeting and discovered the murder scene.
During the time that lapsed before the murder was discovered, the suspects fled Itamar and arrived back at Awarta, at the home of Salah Awad, the uncle of Hakim. According to the investigation, the suspects told Salah what they had done. Salah helped them hide the knives that they used in the murder and the weapons which they stole, as well as helped burn their clothes, which were covered in blood.
Israel Defense Forces troops arrived at the scene of the murder and made sure that there were no terrorists in the area. The IDF troops, along with the Shin Bet then left to carry out arrests in Awarta, to which a trail from the murder had led. Hundreds of the village's 8,000 residents were arrested in the ongoing investigation.
Investigators came upon Hakim Awad on April 5th, and after he confessed to the crime, his alleged partner Amjad Awad confessed five days later. During the investigation the father of Hakim was arrested along with two of his uncles and his brother. In addition, the man who the suspects supposedly approached to procure a weapon was arrested along with the Ramallah resident at whose home the two M-16 rifles were found hidden.
According to a senior Shin Bet official, despite the suspects' young age, Hakim and Amjad "described what they did with self-control and did not express regret over their actions at any stage of the investigation."
The same official said that the two suspects went to Itamar with the clear intention of carrying out a terror attack and stealing weapons.
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It was ahorrific and despicable act. There is no excuse, PERIOD. My heart cries. Unbelivable crime. While I want Isarel out of Palestine, this heinous crime must face justice. This is horrific.
I hold you equally responsible for the Murder, Bibi. Under your leadership the peace has distance forever and cannot be seen anywhere in the visinity. You have put so called in harms way.
All the murderers should be caught on both sides Arab and Israel military or civilian or settlers
is that these types of murders of babies, children, and parents were done before Israell took the West Bank in a counterattack in 1967; it happened before that war and the war of Independence. You may wish to read about cities and villages where the streets ran red with blood, including Hebron after the Grand Mufti (HItler's guest in Berlin) incited these murders. So, I respectfully suggest that you look at the religious-based hatred that incites these murders rather than blaming the innocents. Only when the cradle-to-grave hate education ends will these types of murders similarly end.
Parrot, much more suited to a fool who regurgitates and repeats the lie. You make light of one of the most gruesome acts of callous murder one can imagine. Come back after you know the details and tell us that these monsters were decent people.
You see the same kind on Muslim behavior in Kashmir against Hindus, in Aceh against Christians, In Spain and England against train passengers, and in the US on 911. These kind of atrocities against non-Muslims occur anyplace Muslim Jihadis can reach them and obviously has nothing to do with "occupation and humiliation", it has to do with a religion that teaches the genocide of non-believers who won't "submit" to The Religion of Peace.
I lived in a village only a few hundred meters from Itamar for a few months last year. These days such murders are rare events in the region, thank God. As anywhere, young people respond in many different ways to what they feel to be oppression, living under occupation, seeing no future, being stateless etc. I met many who were very positive and hopeful for peace. It is desparately sad to see hatred and fear prevail in cases like this. What can we do to turn this fear and hatred into love and compassion? May of the comments I have read seem only to want to maintain the status quo rather than make positive change
A testament to hate. When one can do this and not feel a thing one has left any personal morality and responsibility long long ago. Some will blame their ability to do this on all sorts of reasons, but there is none. There are far worse stories and brave people in the world. who, despite lives ills, live for humankind and respect and give life. These boys are long gone, passed the point when murder is so easily done.
All you can say is "I don't understand". You cannot say more until you have lived the lives those boys lived.
ISRAEL RELEASE THESE 2 PALESTINIANS AT ONCE!!! STOP WASTING THE STATES MONEY, STOP WASTING ISRAELI TAX PAYERS DOLLARS, STOP RISKING OUR SOLDIERS LIVES IN CARRYING OUT OPERATIONS SUCH AS THESE TO ARREST THESE PEOPLE!!!! DUE TO THE FACT THAT NOW OUR SOLDIERS AND CITIZENS WILL BE KIDNAPPED AND THE TERRORISTS WILL DEMAND THAT THESE TWO PALESTINIANS WILL BE RELEASED, AND THEY 'WILL' BE RELEASED AS EASY AS 1, 2, 3, IF, HAMAS HASNT ALREADY ADDED THEM 'TODAY' TO THEIR PRISONER-LIST IN EXCHANGE FOR SHALIT!!!! SO STOP ARRESTING PEOPLE UNTIL U INSTALL A DEATH PENALTY SYSTEM!!!!
not once do they consider the incitement of 40-plus years of occupation, oppression, humiliation, harrassment, and abuse. No incitement in the killing of parents, children, siblings, uncles and cousins - most of whom, statistics say, were not combatants. They see no incitement in the destruction of orchards, homes, and the frequent dispossession of both. No incitement in arbitrary and indefinite detention without charges or trial. They see absolutely NO incitement in the futility, injustice, and lack of recourse that Israel's wretched occupation and settlements have weighed upon the Palestinian people! They see only incitement from Abbas and the PA - what was it again, I seem to have forgotten...or have they ever really said? Well whatever it is, it can't be that effective if its only managed to incite two teens after 40 years of Israel's crap! There's no excusing their actions, but there's NO blaming the PA or Palestinians in general! Not even the one third who 'approved' of it...because while most of them would never dream of doing the same, their so-called approval falls directly under that old saying: "how does it feel?".
I am an Arab and I say: Israel please execute them, no excuse for murdering the babies.
So much hate.
The left and right bashers should show a little restraint in trying to get at each other's throat. This goes nowhere and shows an obsessional behaviors verging on the insane. What is important here is that the criminals were found and be tried.
Do enlighten us, please. Two sick individuals commit this atrocity and you blame a third of the worlds population for it. Talk about feudal.
This is what happens when you are taught hate from the day you are born. As long as the Arabs keep teaching hate, hate hate, their children will not be able to be normal. That is why they can kill babies with no remorse. If the Arabs want peace, teach your children human values.
A think in Israel the palestiniens have all rigths execpt, to harm the the state of Israel and harm the jews.When they accept the realytief.They will find themselfs in a more comfortable world.
If your statement were to be valid, than it would mean that it is in Israeli nature to torture innocent people, take pictures with their victims etc. All because one person did it. Statement of one rabbi claiming it is ok to kill non-Jews could be applied to every Jew in the world. Abu ghraib would mean that all Americans are sadists and so on. Be careful when you deal with apsolutes and generalization. Those things can go both ways. Every nation has its misfits, criminals, unstable elements of society. No nation is without sin.
More innocent bystanders will pay the price. Israel is isolated from what is happening around it but not insulated. Inaction regarding the peace process is inflammatory, building more settlements is inflammatory the only option Israel has is a Palestinian homeland as soon as possible. The window of opportunity is closing tight. Time is of essence. Hopefully this will fall on receptive ears.
And please not another Arabian/Islamic dictaorship.
How can one come to live in such a place instead of enjoying the safety of Israel?
What you deem "illegal settlements" are, in fact, renaissant Jewish communities in historic land of Israel. There are means of obtaining safety which do not include appeasement and abandonment of territory.
They can live and die where they choose. Thank G-d these animals were caught. This is exactly why there will never be a pal state.
Quite simple: They have been indoctrinated by false teachers into believing that only a complete and exclusive Jewish sovereignty over all Eretz-Yisrael (all the Land west of the Jordan river) - is true Zionism, and a prerequisite for bringing about Messiah's coming. See under: Rav Kook's doctrine.
1 - It is not only Tony Silver who is looking at the israeli settlements as "illegal settlements", it is the entire world. 2 - The words "renaissant Jewish communities" are a whitewashed definition for what are actually israeli settlements protected by an occupation army and built in the midst of a foreign stateless occupied population, on a land outside israeli sovereignty. Who are you trying to fool? 3 - The West Bank is not "historic land of Israel". It is not, nor has never been israeli, and hopefully, will never be. You want it to be israeli? Annex it, with of course, ALL its population. Go ahead, be my guest. 4 - There is no place whatsoever in International Law for historical rights. See under "Kosovo, the historical birthplace of the Serbian people."
Get out of the West Bank before it is too late and a perverted version of Zionism has added a fifth chapter to historian Barbara Tuchman's March of Folly. - "A phenomenon noticeable throughout history, regardless of place or period, is the pursuit by governments of policies contrary to their own interests.' " (B. Tuchman, twice winner of Pulitzer Prize) - "If we don't end the occupation, it would end us." (Haim Ramon, former Israeli Justice Minister.) - "We must have a Palestinian state in our neighborhood, or we will become a Palestinian state." (Yehoshafat Harkabi, z'al, chief of Military Intelligence, 1955 to 1959, then head of ME Studies at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem.)
They live there. becouse they live on theirs ancistors land.
How can one come to live in such a place instead of enjoying the safety of Israel?
Because some of us are convinced that the safety of Israel on the coastal plain depends on an Israeli presence in the highlands.
Because of occupation and colonialism
Killing children is just wrong! Blaming a whole population for the murder of this poor family is also wrong! Good people should unite, which means the majority of the Palestinians and the majority of the Israelis should stand together against extremism on both sides and achieve peace once and for all.
Ever seen a rally in either Gaza or the West bank FOR Israel and against pal terror? Nope and never will.
That's pure Hasbara garbage. Just like it was the lie about Palestinians dancing on the streets on 9/11 when it turned out that they were indeed Israeli. Just because you lie, it doesn't mean that it becomes true
The holes in this story are so many and so big I am surprised people are not commenting on them. So two teenagers just decide one Friday afternoon, a few hours before the crime as the article says, to go and commit a murder in a settlement - a settlement that is heavily guarded with several levels of security and surveillance and they manage to do it with only a few hours planning. They also magically manage to find an empty house with an M16 gun just laying there for the taking. And just as easily as they came in they manage to leave undetected again by the super hi tech security system. And why would they hide the weapons in the home of a friend instead of maybe burying them in one of the many surrounding hills where they would have never been found? Not convincing at all.
Yes, the settlement was guarded. But the guards weren't doing their jobs properly. The fence was cut in a couple of places and this fed back to the security hut on the computer. But the guards thought it was an animal and so didn't check it out. It has been all over the hebrew newspapers. It's an absolute disgrace and those guards should be put in prison. M-16's are generally kept by many of the population and kept in a safe room. The intruders must have checked out every room and found it locked, and unlocked it. The system did detect them and it's a crime they weren't stopped. Next, they may have assumed that their friend wouldn't be checked or they didn't want to leave it lying around or buried as their DNA was on it (and prob already on the db for other crimes). No holes - just tragedy
just say that you think that Israel had made up a story about 3 dead children, if that's what you think. don't start trying to be all smart. because either you believe it happened, or you don't.
Already in the first report on the event it was said that the surveillance system signaled but the security guards thought it was a false alarm.
After trial and hopefully conviction the killers should be hanged.
of children says everything about your soul
Either way the debate by Hamas and all other militant groups is- Do we name 2 streets after them.
EVERY crime commited by a Palestinian against an Israeli is called "terrorist", no matter what the motive and no matter what may have instigated it! You kick me...it's cool. I kick you back...I'm a terrorist! Understand now?
Your people 'kick back' by stabbing and slashing children and babies as they look into their eyes. This is why there is no peace, The few of you commit the crimes, but the bulk of you rejoice in them. Somehow it assuages your humiliation (self imagined) that the Jews are not subjugated. When I saw Arab mothers joyful at the death of their own sons and daughters as suicide bombers I was incredulous. Now I easily believe the worst about what your culture is capable of.
to # 26 it is not true that they did what there naton wants. I personaly and my family feel very sorry for this crime no matter who did it palestinians or others when you said that did you open our hearts all.
they are 18 and 19 they are adults responsible for their acts a vicious gruesome multi murder. Don't portray them as children. They are self proclaimed warriors in a war against Jews
Many off these Israeli left-wing media have relatives and children in the army. Many of them are against Netanyahu for various reasons and they follow the shouting about "crimes against humanity" and "deliberate targeting of civilians". After that, they are shocked by Itamar's muder. "No", they say "The IDF is not like this". Excuse me I day, when you shouted "crimes against humanity", what did you think it mean? Not collateral damage, not even extra precautions to save of soldiers live at the expense of endangering Palestinians. When the Israeli left-wing shouts crimes "against humanity" it means his children in the army are doing what Itamar's murderers did. If you don't mean that, if you only mean the IDF should be more careful and improve, you should choose other words. Crimes against humanity is precisely Itamar's murder. If you believe the IDF did such crimes, and your son is in the army, he is an accomplice. If you don't, be careful about what yous say.
"The lives of Roi Fogel, 8, and Yishai Fogel, 2, were spared." This is confusing I thought they killed them as well. How can anyone kill a 3 month old baby!! The death penalty should be the only option if they actually committed this vicious crime.
Poor phrase. It implies the murderers decided not to kill these two. The truth was, the murderers didn't know the children were nearby, It should have read "Roi...and Yishai...narrowly escaped being murdered".
its time to stop making fun of our selves
unless they are given the death penalty NOW they will be let out. leftists let out the monster samir kuntar who ALSO murdered children. leftist got the nobel peace prize for mass-murderer Arafat. these murderers KNOW That leftists will let them out.
I can guarantee these kids were either tortured and forced to confess. Natanyahu just wants to make a political point to hold anyone accoutable.
good that the culprits were caught. bad that they represent a widespread willingness to engage in terrror amongst palestinian youth. israesl must rethink it's policy of settlement in ursurpped palestinian lands. tho terror is not justified, neither is putting our people in harms way, even if they want to be there. withdraw to the boundaries, and come up with new plans.
Congratulations and accolades go to the investigators who successfully followed the trail to the murderers and their accomplices. They found the two stolen M-16s and that led them to the woman who concealed the murder weapons and the clothes soaked in the victims' blood. The police did this in just 35 days locating witness testimony and physical evidence. The memory of the Fogel tragedy demands justice and the police have been stalwart in following their duty in uncovering the killers who committed this unspeakable crime. Good Work.
By the way, Israel should be happy, that the murders on its citizens can be investigated, and the criminals be brought to justice....unfortunately the Palestinians are not granted the same right when it comes to their civilians killed (and yes, once in a while one could also use the word "murdered") by IDF soldiers! Which is a tremdous injustice indeed.....
when you go back to kill children , its not criminally motivated. its pure endoctrination agaisnt the jewsih people, and we all know its rampant in the arab muslim world. had you eaten your smart pills today, you would have asked yourself , had they ever killed palestinians children during a robbery ? to try to excuse them by saying its criminally motivated makes you a sorry ass excuse representattive ofthe homo sapien race. One that probably couldnt recognize civilisation if was served to dinner with sauer kraut.
Looks like this was a criminal act, and not a political one...... So the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine to which both muderers were affiliated, but who didn't officially send them on their murderous acts, is a criminal gang and not a political organisation? Interesting observation from Swiss-Dino...
Whenever anyone is killed by the IDF there is an investigation. When found to be unjustified the defendant is put in prison for a helluva long time. In Gaza they get money.
have some candy. Lobe some more rockets and cry when your babies die.
So why shouldn't it happen in Palestine..???
The first suspect is Hakim Mazen Awad, 18, a high school student whose father was active in the Popular Front terror organization. Awad has a prison record. His uncle, who was killed in clashes with IDF forces in 2003, was involved in a June 2002 terror attack in Itamar, which left five dead. The second suspect, Amjad Mahmad Awad, 19, also a student, is affiliated with the Popular Front. At approximately 9:00 pm the two cut the settlement fence and entered its ground, masked. At first, they entered a neighboring house, found it empty, and stole an M-16 rifle, clips and a Kevlar vest. From there they moved onto the Fogel home. Before entering the house the murderers noticed that there were children in the home. Undeterred, they still chose to proceed, killing two of the children immediately after breaking in. Parents Ehud and Ruth were murdered next. According to the investigation's report, the two struggled with their attackers before succumbing to multiple shotgun wounds. Before fleeing the scene, the two stole an additional gun from the Fogel home. When they had already left the house and saw a patrol car outside, they feared they would be captured. At that point, Amjad insisted on going back into the house and searching for additional weapons. Unfortunately, this was when the Fogel's baby girl started crying. Fearing it would attract attention, the two murdered her, as well. As for the two surviving children, the murderers said they hadn't noticed them. Had they found the two, both said, they would not have hesitated to kill them, as well. The heinous deed done, the two, who are not related, returned to their village on foot and appealed to Hakim's uncle, Salah Awad, also a Popular Front militant, for assistance, giving him a detailed report of the attack they had carried out. Salah Awad helped them conceal their weapons and bloodstained clothes, and later, he transferred the stolen weapons to a Ramallah resident, for hiding. The latter was arrested after the weapons were discovered in his possession. Israeli security forces also arrested five of the two's family members and friends in connection to the case. The Shin Bet noted that even though the murderers are affiliated with the Peoples Front, it appears that they acted of their own accord and were not following orders. The issue is still under investigation. A senior Shin Bet official said that the massacre had the characteristics of a "lone-terrorist" attack and even though it was carried out by two people, it was difficult to receive any information in advance which could have prevented the attack. A senior Shin Bet official said that the massacre had the characteristics of a 'lone terrorist' attack and even though it was carried out by two people, obtaining intelligence to thwart such attacks in extremely difficult. Sources familiar with the investigation said the two offered a dispassionate account of the attack, and "a chilling reenactment." Shin Bet officers described it as one of the most "shocking, cold, remorseless and detailed description," they had ever come across. Amjad noted that he went to Itamar to "die a martyr's death", which strengthened his willingness to carry out an act of terrorism. During their interrogation the two suspects made no distinction between the murder of the parents and the children, describing it simply as an act against five Jewish Israelis. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4057894,00.html The village of Awarta, with 8,000 residents is known as a breeding ground for terror and has quite a few hostile elements. Nevertheless, following the massacre and the series of arrests carried out by the defense establishment, the residents renounced the massacre and even attempted to point the blame away from the village.
Plays a role in this horror. It should have been burned down when the two Israeli sergeants were lynched years ago and its inhabitants chased across the Jordan river.
Generally I`m against death sentence, but in this case I would execute the murderers. I don`t need their blood, that would not help the mourning family. But if a leftist goverment arrises in Israel in the future, chances are that they will let them go free as a gesture to the Palestinians. It happened too many times already...
Don't jump to conclusions. Its more important the real murderers are captured. Are these the real murderers ? We don't know yet.
Jews have been living on the West Bank from the time of Abraham, and our ancestors Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah and Jacob and Leah are buried in Hebron. King David grew up in Bethlehem and royal David's city was later associated with the Nazarene. The Old City of Jerusalem was the Jewish capital for about one thousand years. I suspect these young men had been taught the Jews had no place in the West Bank, that the Jews were invaders. This is the end result of such false education.
end this stupid occupation,and learn to live in peace with non jews. Enough is enough!
Children are murdered because Jews won't live in peace. And Poland deserved to be partitioned because it lacked a unified political structure. And women are raped because they are too Westernized. The litany of cynical blame of the victim is endless in the morally blind.
So an M-16 was just lying around in a home and they just happen to find it?? or is that the standard for settlers to just leave their firearms unchecked? And Gunshots not heard? Did they even check to see that its physically possible or did they just forced a confession out?
Geek, it reminds me of the first time I visited a kibbutz, 35 years ago. I entered the room of a kibbutznik and in the corner of his one room home was an M16. since then I have seen this quite often, many Israelis simply do not lock up their weapons, and there are very few cases of children shooting each other, though one of Arik Sharon's children died from playing with a weapon. As for shots not being heard? at this time of the year Purim, israeli children shoot off fire works, I heard this for about a month from the park next door. At first I would check it out, but then it becomes part of the environment. So no weapons are not always locked away, and a rifle shot can easily be deemed a large fire cracker. Be well and Happy Passover.
One is 18 and one is 19 responsible for their deeds according to the law. Look at their pictures! Do they look kids to you, as Haaretz wants to present them? "carried out their deeds independently"writes Haaretz. So how come 6 others were detained? How about the uncle who tried to hide the crime?
When you object to the oppression of a population you would want all the members of this population to be worthy of your concern. This is not always the case. Does that justify the continuation of the oppression? Of course not. There have, for instance, also been a number of horrific lynchings of Chinese in Tibet. Does that mean China can go on sending more and more Chinese immigrants to Tibet, marginalizing the Tibetans in their own country? Of course not. The same goes for Israel and the Palestinians.
these palestinians did not do the murder israel just need someone to pay the price to convince it's citizen that we are protecting you and can anything for you...stop this lying people are not stupid
Israeli news, ynet was the one who reported that a Tai worker was thought to have done it,Idon't think that the talkbacks were at fault, at the time even i asked on my talkback for people to be careful ,and leave it up to the police, so now we know.
the arrested are suspects.
Don't left-wing Jews have relatives serving in the IDF. Do they really believe these relatives in the IDF are doing the same things?
First time in my life I agree with Haaretz. Publishing preferentially anti Israeli comments will wake-up perhaps the Jewish understanding that not only the muslims but unfortunately a majority of the world independent on religion, nation, political orientation or even interests will never forgive us for the simple fact we EXIST.
They are not "two teens", but two monsters.
After you have heaped misery on them on their own land for decades you still expect to be adored? Just because you had this eretz israel dream did not mean you could steal their land. A dream is not reality.
Of course our occupation of Ireland Scotland Libya and Las Islas Malvinas are an exception
My dear drek in London- you are misinformed. The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People.
This comment is very hateful when it concerns the murder of innocent people and children - including a baby. Ironically, both of you hail from the UK. Derek, have you studied history? Now, Israel is the native land of the Jews, so Jews are not "occupying" it, however, your people have in fact occupied Israel in the past, when it was the British COLONY of Palestine, I wonder if in those days a terrorist had killed your grandma in her sleep you would have found it justified...just thinking out loud here...
Arabs in Judea and Samaria have a higher standard of living than the average (non-elite) Arabs in Arab countries. The land was not stolen it was originally the land of Israel and was captured in 1967 in response to an invasion by Jordan (which, somehow, was never blamed for "stealing" that same land.)
These are "the poor Palestinians" Israel is abusing.
All the food you can eat television, conjugal visits, education, maybe a ten year sentence before there is a prisoner swap. You can understand the motivation when you consider the alternative of poverty and mass unemployment with constant harrasment from the occupation forces. Going back to kill the baby was probably to make sure their future career went as planned
They will be go home in peace if they did not do wrong.Investigation works with these methods
blame Islamist terror there on Israel as well
The mind of a terrorist indeed. What sickens me more is that the day after one of them continued to study at the open university.
So these two teenagers supposedly asked for a weapon (knife) for the attack then proceeded to stab 5 people to death then an accomplice hid the murder weapon in THEIR HOUSE??? Did Jessica Fletcher solve this case by any chance?
They asked for a weapon and were NOT given one, at which point they decided to commit the crime with knives. An accomplice hid the guns they stole in Ramallah. I don't know where u got your story.
In Israel, first-degree murder is punishable by life imprisonment alone, and not by death. The death penaltyt can be imposed only for genocide, and it was imposed only once - upon the Nazi Obersturmbannfuehrer Adolf Eichmann. The death penalty does exist in military tribunals, but even so, it was pronounced only once, I believe, and on a Jew. Since the declaqred intent of the two Itamar murdererds was to "kill Jews" - so Israel Radio News - perhaps they should be accused of genocide in the civil or military courts.
Israely law also has the death penalty for treason during time of war. In addition a MILITARY court can also give the death penalty to terrorist, but for some reason the courts are extremly leiniant and such a thing was never done.
Toubiansky was shot in 1948 for treason. He was posthumously exonerated.
no terror organization involved ? or is there ? still not clear to me ...
Appears as if there is no terror organization involved.
Nauseating series of events. Its good they got nailed down now. Whats their stories. Why did they do it. What happened to them to commit such dreadful crimes. They must most definitely be truly disturbed to do this. This is The Samir Kuntar story all over again. Murdering children with bare hands. How do you become such an animal?
It is inherent to Islamic Jihadism. You don't have to be "disturbed" in the diagnostic (psychological) sense. From their point of view it is patriotism.
the murderers would not get the death penalty. After all, there were no first-hand witnesses, and halakha (Jewish law) requires at least 2 such witnesses. The death penalty was practically abolished towards the end of Second Temple Times - about 2000 years ago, even though it's "on the books" - in the Torah. In fact, the attitude of the Talmud towards the death penalty is that a court that prescribes the death sentence once every 7 years is a "murderous court"; the minority opinion is "once in 77 years". This change in attitude towards the death penalty from the time of the Torah is due to the fact that the aqncient Rabbis considered the execution of a person to be almost equivalent to murder itself, and for them, human life was of supreme value.
First of all the Torah clearly states that these two murderes are to be put to death, Hashem gives clear instructions to the death penalty. You mention two witnesses are needed and there are actualy a Billion witnesses to this murder, it's called DNA, the DNA matches that is your witness, you have a confession which overrides any need for a witness to begin with, you have the murder weapon, you have the blood, you have the testimony of the families. Dont dont lechture us on the torah cause you are still in the dark ages and clueless.
Arab terrorists were behinde this terrible act! This should clearly show the world why Israel need maximum security.
What worries me now is that these two will go to jail and live a good life there with visits from family good food and education oppurtunities with absolutely no remorse for murdering children in cold blood.Then they will probably be released in a few years to continue the killing that they started.Bring back the death penalty !!!!
I'm no fan of Haaretz. Too bad the PA,Gaza and the rest of the Arab World don't have a sounding board like Haaretz for their readers to exclaim the short comings of their States. The uprisings in the Arab countries came because of sites like Haaretz where they could read both sides of the stories without being beaten, raped, jailed or murdered.
I am a Jew and a Zionist. I want to see the UN establish a Palestinian state and the removal of settlements. I think that in the future that will prove to be what is best to ensure Israel's survival and to be just and fair to Palestinians. Do all Jews and Zionists think like me? Unfortunately not.
If your ideas were to come threw. Israel would be under constant attack by terrorists untill the last Jew is driven to the sea or dead. You might be a Jew but no Zionist for sure!
same as the rest claiming to be Jewish and who are not.
your guns of lies about Israel and Jews... Natallie Durson any comments that the murder in IItamar was carried out by: a) Mossad, b)settlers c) Border Police d) unpaid foreign worker are disqualified.. Any other explanation, Natallie, Tony, MichelUK , Bloody Scott...? We whoe hope for peace are waiting to hear from you..........................................
But im not at all surprised to see how quickly the Palestine haters are rushing to find these 2 guilty even before a trail or evidence is shown. Never has the shin bet or idf beat a confession out of someone, never has there been miscarriages of justice against innocent Palestinians, has there? These things are totally unheard of in your so called democracy right? Whoever carried out these murders should be dealt with by the rule of law, not judged by hates like you lot on here!
"According to the investigation, it took the suspects about ten minutes to cut the fence which separates the settlement of Itamar from the Palestinian village of Awarta. They climbed the security barrier at the settlement unnoticed and walked about 400 meters into the settlement. Once inside the settlement, they broke into an empty home and stole an M-16 rifle, a weapons cartridge, a vest and a helmet before proceeding to the Fogel family's home." Anyone who understand how much security there is around settlements can realize that this is far from being true. I think the Shin bet shall come with a better story to tell the world about this murder. I am, however, not trying to defend children killers. If they are the "true" killers, then let them burn in hell. But this kind of investigation is always suspicious, I don't think it is that easy to get into a westbank settlement!!!!
Why because arabs are found guilty? The same old story everytime. Arabs dont ever do anything wrong. Why dont all arabs pack up and leave Israel and stay out. Then we will have peace!
Will they release the evidence and full report? Where can it be found?
Do you think Police, all over the World, have to supply evidence when they arrest people for murder ?? These weren't people, anyway.
When has Israel ever answered to anyone? They do as they like. The pressure was on to arrest and charge a Palestinian, and they did that. There are many, many holes in this "evidence" and I don't believe for a minute it was these two who are guilty.
In COURT where these young men will be represented by very competent legal counsel. Where else should evidence and a full report (indictment) be presented?
Yes, police have to supply evidence. That's standard.
these barbaric acts will continue. But this time, the leaders of 'palestine' will have no excuse. They will be accountable as a nation and Israel can act accordingly. In some ways, the future terror state is a good thing for Israel. It will make it a lot easier to deal with the entity collectively and charge their leadership with terrorism.
So if a jew carries out a crime the "jewish state" should be seen as being account able for their actions? Are you stupid or is your hate so all consuming and blinding you reach for any kind of connection to justify your hate and murderous desires? Whoever carried out the killings is a murderer and should be treated as such by the law, not used to justify more govt sanctioned murder of innocent people!
that was the part of the rationale for leaving Gaza and Israel is still strugglng to deal with that entity...
We heard all that before. The leftists told us that after we leave Lebanon it will be accountable for any attack on our border. But in 2006 who did the UN condemn? Israel!
Sure looks like it!
already has a state and this angered unpaid foreign worker did not have any helpers.
Those murderers don't deserve a state, they deserve a prison cell. But the other 11 millions of Palestinians are ready for a state.
they slit the throat of a 3 month old, stabbed a 5 year old........ evil evil evil
Also, the initial report said everyone was stabbed, suddenly someone was shot?
this is how they make sure they caught the right guys and not someone who confesses to what he read in the paper. Noone who did not do it would confess to both stabbing and shooting a women
not everything is revealed to the papers
Sounds like you think the boys were not treated with the respect they deserve. Also an initial report is just that initial.. Too bad they cannot be hung.for such brutal!! murders
You say the least so as to allow the perpatrators to feel they do not need to hide evidence
If these animals are guilty they need to be locked away for good. As utterly opposed as I am to the illegal settlements on the West Bank there can be absolutely no justification or mitigation for butchering children.
I am Palestinian and I feel ashamed. They Should be punished harsher punishment, and no mercy in punishment. Palestinians must declare thier opinion openly, with or against, no room for equivocation.
Hey buddy, i am ashamed of such a despicable act as much as you are. But the thing is, on top of feeling ashamed of such criminal behaviors, we have to deal with all the Israelis who claim that all of the Palestinians are terrorists and criminals who do not deserve a state. They don't want to believe that we have morals just like they do, and that the horrible acts of some cowards do not represent our values. We want peace with the Israelis.
I am Palestinian and I feel ashamed. They Should be punished harsher punishment, and no mercy in punishment. Palestinians must declare thier opinion openly, with or against, no room for equivocation.
Dear Jehad I thank you for your honesty I would like to read more condemnations from your people. I have no problem in condemning Israeli attrocities. We should unite against murderers wherever they come from
you have already declared your options back in 1947, 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973, when you were jordaneans and in 1995 and 2001...we all remember these "options"...
Dear Jehad, Thank you for speaking out. It is so important for Muslims to speak out against such atrocities as it is for Jews like me to speak out against Israeli ones.
You are the first that shows and expresses understanding for such a heinous crime. The Natalies of this world should stop and think how they would feel if it was THEIR siblings and parents that had their throats cut. Thank you for showing a humane side to the Palestinians.
I agree with you completely, sir - and if/when the Palestinian "street" stands up loudly and clearly repudiating this sort of behavior - peace will be close behind. It's the best way to de-fang the fanatics on OUR side of the fence, too!
The arrested are still suspects, and before tiral nothing can be said definitely. In a civilized society even criminals must be teated in a сivilized way.
Despite years of mistrust between the Arab people and the Jewish people but i know the spirit of Satan is still working without a lull in order to deepen the spirit of hostility and hatred. I personally believe that there is a noble mission to the Jews among human beings and I do not hide my support to the Jewish people's right to exist, with the knowledge that I often find myself alone among my people, but I am a believer in God, and I know that God chose the sons of Jacob for the great task. Peace between us must be built on solid principles of honesty, and unconditional love. We hope and pray for peace.
Shin Bett has produced two kids who have confessed to cutting through five fences, three alarmed, two electrified, break into two houses, kill five members of the same family, and nobody in Itamar knew about it until their daughter came home from meeting the boyfriend? You think we were born yesterday? These arrests are to save face for Netanyahu who had confidentally declared that it was HAMAS that had done it. When everyone knew THEN it was the Thai employee of the Fogel family who was owed NIS 10,000
Foreigners were not employed at Itamar. You have Foreigners were not employed at Itamar. You have fabricated a Thai employee, NIS 10,000, and have even assaulted the moral character of the 12-year daughter by fabricating a "boyfriend". You are obvious and you are a loser. You will need to live with it.
I heard the Jews also caused the tsunami in Japan
Chris -- Your dislike of Jews is so profound that you refuse to accept anything that interferes with your prejudice.
So why did they not subject the Thai employee to torture and get him to confess? the murder certainly did not get him the money back. Or was it to illustrate falsely that some Palestinians are subhuman murderers; something we know quite well in any case and for which we do not require additional proof..
Where from did "everyone" know that from??? And where is that Thai guy now?
I wasn't aware that everyone knew back then that a Thai employee of the Fogel family was responsible for their murder. Who exactly knew this? Members of the International Solidarity Movement? Supporters of the BDS campaign against Israel? Leftist Israel bashers like you? No one I know thought a Thai worker was responsible for the killings and they were right! It wouldn't require any psychological torture to get Palestinian perpetrators like these to admit to these crimes. They're proud of those killings and feel no remorse whatsoever. That's the Palestinian reality that you leftists don't grasp.
not to have compassion is one thing but how can you say something like that when they found the shotguns on the arb vilage? B"H family Fogel (Z"L) is resting in peace close to god
I have spent years trying to understand how "normal" people can be so hate filled when it comes to their feelings towards Jews. You have taught me exactly how that message gets delivered. Your hate is so consuming and irrational that you can, with seeming ease, move any self evident situation to Jew hatred. Tell a lie often and loud enough ---------.
Do you have ANY evidence of torture, psychological or otherwise? Damn I forgot, you don't need evidence, you have hate to blind you to the truth. You're on your own here, Chris.
But no amount of evidence will ever be enough for you.
hey Chris...you quote "everyone" who knew it was a Thai employee...and yet NOTHING has appeared in any reputable press about that ....so what exactly are your sources ? Is there no limit to the conspiracy theories which guys like you subscribe to in order to avoid responsibility for the reality ?
Let's ask him. He's the leading expert on what causes tsunamis.
Well mister smartypants- how is it that you know so much.? The peaceloving Pals coudnt have done this. Afterall, it is unthinkable that they would murder children. (Except for Maalot, Kfar Daron, Sabarro etc.etc.)
Where have I stated that I hate the Jews?
even you should show some support for your old country. Instead you continue to spread your anti-semetic values. I feel so sorry for you. You are a lost soul!
is it evident in so many of your posts - you try to hide it but can't.
one could expect you to pay some respect to your old country. But not you! You are to busy spreading your hate towards Jews!
I'll ask you, where have I ever stated that I hate Jews?
It must really hurt you Chris to be proved wrong again. Once again you cling to your Thai worker conspiracy theory. If I remember correctly you posted that if it was a Palestinian that was involved and not a Thai then you would apologise. Who are the "everyone" who knew that it was a Thai worker, only you Chris and the usual useful idiots. You have become totally irrelevant Chris. Go on Chris where is your apology. Another of your conspiracy theories shot down. Hahaaa.
Now you is being a silly billy. The tsunami in Japan was caused by the subduction zone of the fault in question suddenly forcing itself upwards lifting the seafloor by tens of metres and causing an uplift of water. Which radiated out across the Pacific. The geology of the foreshore of Japan amplified this wall of water until it's height (at the Fukashima Reactor for example) was 47 feet high. Now I suppose there is a theological argument of whether it was god wwill or plate tectonics, but it wasn't the jew that done it. Sorry if that disappoints you.
He doesn't need evidence or proof. Innocence before guilt is not in his vocabulary. Perhaps some of these soldiers who were innocent of any wrong doing will sue those who slandered them - hopefully
they have yet to be found guilty. So my 'conspiracy theory' as you call it still holds.
He was always a figment of the imagination of the BDS crowd
Shin Bett has produced two kids who have confessed to cutting through five fences, three alarmed, two electrified, break into two houses, kill five members of the same family, and nobody in Itamar knew about it until their daughter came home from meeting the boyfriend? You think we were born yesterday? These arrests are to save face for Netanyahu who had confidentally declared that it was HAMAS that had done it. When everyone knew THEN it was the Thai employee of the Fogel family who was owed NIS 10,000
Shame on you for putting blame on Thais because your heart goes out for Palestinians! Thais are not murderers!
Chris you are such a blatant LIAR it is clear you have never been in Itamar! ! Fact THE (one and only fence in Itamar) was NOT cut! They CLIMBED over the fence! And yes NO one heard the murder since the nearest neighbors were over 150 meters away in their home with closed windows due to the incliment weather. As to the Thai worker do tell us his name Chris and provide the receipts to prove the non-payment accusation?
The story says "An hour and a half later, twelve-year-old Tamar Fogel returned home from a youth group meeting and discovered the murder scene."
You are a pathological liar and will stoop to any means at all to vomit your Jew hatred on this site. Fact: There is only one fence at Itamar. Fact: The daughter is a twelve year old ultra religious girl. Fact: There are no Thai workers at Itamar. Fact: Another one of your conspiracy theories has been proven wrong. Fact: You are what my father used to call a shtick drek.
Death penalty!!
But in Israel, where prisoner swaps are routine, the death penalty will probably have more deterrence for acts such as this.
in a court of law most deserving indeed.
Although I share your gut reaction, Israeli Law does not permit capital punishment except for crimes against humanity such as Eichmann. We cannot make up the Law as we go along; we can convict the terrorists and allow their fellow prisoners to bring about true justice.
an 18 year old and a 19 year old slashed the throat of an innocent baby and stabbed to death her brothers and her parents. this calculated, dastardly murder, was carried out by men who are barely adult. it is difficult to understand the pathology of these two men. they come from a sordid society where life is not treasured. they are without conscience, without mercy, without empathy.
Such a broad generalization reflects the mind of a two year old.
Even when is stares you in the face. Always defending evil. Beneath a two year old.
This young group of Palestinians hasbeen brought up in schools that celebrate jihad. The online jihad site vidoes prove it. When it comes to Israeli Jews these children are taught to hate. They do show no mercy or empathy. One other great example was shown at the beginning of the 2nd intifada their was an IDF soldier thrown out the window of a house in Jenin and the Palestinian militant was praising Allah with his blood soaked hands. No mercy ...no empathy.
According to full news reports, these two teenage terrorists, who do dot express regret for the murders, were assisted by at least six other local Arabs-- four of them from Awad’s family.
So many talkback writer cautioned against believingthat Arabs were the terrorists. They suggested that foreign workers were responsible, so that's what I believed. Where did I go wrong?
and then you're surprised??
Unfortunately, this is what they would like to do to all of us jews, including those in Tel aviv. never forget this.
The muders were horrific and very high profile and the police will have been under huge pressure to catch the murderers. We had this in Britain with IRA pub bombings. Eventually some Irish people, of a young, vulnerable profile were pressured into confessing. They hadn't done the crimes, but they'd been put under such intense pressure over such a long period of time that they confessed and implicated others. It would be nice to see some hard evidence here, not just confessions and there are slightly strange issues, like why would you hide the murder weapon at someone's house? If I'd kiled someone, I'd dump the murder weapon as far as possible from my house.
Some of the more juvenile talkbackers are already in a state of semi-hysteria so they could do worse then read carefully your comments.
How dare you suggest that the Israeli Police arrested 2 innocents and pressured them into confession.
Their DNA was matched. They admitted and re-enacted their crime to the tiniest detail. They show no regret and say they want a martyr's death. Is that not enough for you?
quite a few suspects would commit "suicide" or the evidence was manufactured yet it took years for it to be rebutted. This will become a cause celebre for the leftists and it will be monitored very closely.
Your suspicions has two reasons: 1. strong bias of europe (and not only) toward the so called pal's human rights 2. deep misunderstanding from the part of europeans (and not only) of the middle east reality and "culture" Try what the romans told: "Audiater et altera pars"; even if defanding Jews never happend at a movement level elsewhere than in Israel.
There's no doubt they're the murderers - save for a few apologists.
Can the innuendos and give us your whole theory: the nefarious Je... er, Israeli authorities engineered the murders to harvest the victims' organs and then set up innocent Palestinians, who only want statehood and a Nirvana of human rights, to take the rap.
Jewish Law doesn't permit a conviction purely based on confession, because mentally disturbed people can be convinced to confess to most anything. If, however, they found the weapons, DNA evidence etc. that would confirm the confessions. I doubt that four members of one family confessed if the police had no hard evidence.
If you were planning to use the weapon again, you probably wouldn't dump it. Or do you think that someone else did the murders and then dumped the gun at someone else's house? I agree that we can't ever be 100% sure, but be real!
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=640
there was more then confessions of the murderes - there were the burnt bloody clothes, the weapons with serial numbers; you think logically like a Westerner - these guys went there to steal weapons and killl, so they would not dump their catch - they typically use it as "initiation" into the terrorist ranks - this is Middle East thinking - there is no logic here
Well, the article above says nothing about that, but it does say hundreds were arrested from the same village. Name one investigation by any agency anywhere that involved hundreds arrested from the same residential area that you would take seriously.
The allegations about foreign worker were made by leftists and Palestinian terrorists sympathizers who made the "Haaretz" their meeting place. These people are never ashamed of their actions and words!
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=640
These are what Mr. Goldstone called "children".... and posters herein did the same, while I called them murderers ... in vain.
of a couple of punks. Extrapolation for personal agenda purposes is irrelevant.
No they were shinning examples of typical Palestinian Youth who have been brainwashed with hate. Though many of the Settlers are extremists they have yet to commit atrocities like those at Itamar. But if this is what you celebrate then maybe we should start ethnic cleansing. Isn't this what you want Ahmed oops Jake
extrapolation. None at all. Sure. These murderers had "nationalist" motives with no regret, even wished they could have murdered more. They are not punks, they are animals. The jakes with half a brain should tremble with horror and vomit with shame at trying to downplay the incitement that provokes such horror.
These teenagers are the ones that have grown up with the teachings of Jihad. The many videos supplied by the jihadists on their web sites shows all and tells all.
Jane, even Hamas has already admitted that they lost over 700 "fighters" while other organizations lost around 300. Your figure of 700 civilians has been debunked by Hamas themselves.
How can an 18 and 19 year old be so sick to slice up a baby, two children, and their parents? Than the murder is celebrated in Gaza with sweets being given out. Is this type of mentality ready for statehood?
come in all shades and varieties so let's not get stupid about non-existent implications for that's juvenile thinking at its best.
For ye have sown the wind and now reap the whirlwind.
Where are you getting this propaganda that they were giving out sweets in Gaza. These murders were condemed by Palestinian leaders.
They even uploaded vids to youtube. So...NO...it's not propaganda it is fact. The Palestinians celebrated this slaughter they didn't condemn it!
Cultures of violence, ignorance and hate are well established in many Arab societies. Islam cannot be called a religion of peace until the elements within these societies are publically branded as "unwanted".
Rabbi's saying it is OK to murder Pals and it is not ok to rent to non-Jews. Ministers and MK's passing racist laws. MK's supporting illegal settlements. IDF soldiers and Settlers murdering Pals and getting away with it. Right wing Talkbackers denigrating the entire race of Arabs and calling collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
Really where does it say that in the Torah? I did not know living in the west bank (where jews have lived for thousands of years, except from 1948-67 when they were expelled by the arabs) is equivalent to slitting the throat of a 3 month old. Interesting views of morality you have.
Reuben; study history. Jews were thrown out of Israel and came back to buy the land. You are truly stupid and do not know history. Arabs never were ones to love and the Jews did not invade Arab land. The reverse has been true. Tiny Israel; if Jews have been invaders they are not very competent. They live on the land that has been theirs historically. Giving up Gaza was covetness????
Don't do that,buddy.