Settler council: Netanyahu's West Bank pullout plan radiates panic
PM mulling moves to stave off 'diplomatic tsunami' and rally U.S., EU and other Western countries against unilateral Palestinian move at UN.
By Barak RavidThe Yesha Council of Settlers reacted angrily Tuesday to a Haaretz report detailing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's plan for a West Bank withdrawal as part of a diplomatic initiative to counter an impending unilateral Palestinian declaration of statehood.
Netanyahu is weighing a withdrawal of Israel Defense Forces troops from the West Bank and a series of other measures to block the "diplomatic tsunami" that may follow international recognition of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders at the United Nations General Assembly in September.
 |
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. |
| Photo by: Reuters |
"Instead of behaving with a cool head and reason, Israel is radiating panic," Yesha said in a statement.
According to Yesha, Israel's "panic" is a self-fulfilling prophecy, inasmuch as the Arab world and the international community can sense this panic and as therefore intensify their demands on Israel.
The council added that "the correct path is to clarify that unilateral Palestinian steps will be met with our own unilateral steps, such as the assumption of sovereignty over Judea and Samaria or parts of it, in parallel with applying diplomatic, economic, security and other pressures available to Israel."
Why Facebook Connect?
Comment on Haaretz.com articles with your Facebook login, and share your thoughts on your own wall.
- Latest
- Most Viewed
- Most Rated
- Open all
do it. it has to be done
America and Israel have together been roadblocks to peace for decades. It is a sad come down for America to be reduced to such behavior, but that's what happens when people let their government run away from them. America and Israel will do their best to scuttle the UN action before, during, and after it makes an appearance on the UN floor. At least now the lines of battle are drawn. America and Israel on one side supoprting Israeli expansion and oppression. The rest of the world on the other side, supporting Palestinian statehood. It should be noted that Israel may have a few other supporters, such as Canada, and a couple others along for the ride, but they will not be as engaged in the process as America and Israel. No matter what happens at the UN, this is progress. Progress is our most important product.
Lieberman for PM.
the Day of The Lord is at hand....for such a time as this.
I pray along with millions an millions of Christian Americans in the United States for Israel safety and for our loyal trusted friends the Jewish people. Many citizens in the United States stand with Israel and we pray for you, please do not retreat on land that our Heavenly Father has promise you. Honor and respect His Will, for it will be done, for you are His Chosen people. Sometimes our own government does not do what is right, remember the Holy Scriptures are black and white and are the Inspired Holy words of our Lord. With much love and admiration from the United States, you are not alone. Shalom
That according to israel's enemies the WHOLE of Israel is ONE BIG SETTLER Oh you perhaps forgot..When you said to Cipora : NOT WE WITH THEM Did I misundrstand yours too..do tell me please dear S
The world will witness peace and goodwill which they have never seen before. A viable Palestinian State is a must. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has taken too long. It is time to end it as soon as possible. The world has better things to forcus on like, economy, natural disasters, environment, desease, energy. With the Middle East conflict over, all the money spend on defence can be spent on healthcare and making life easier.
If you get my gist..I mean 22 +1=23+1= 24 IF THAT HAPPENS ISRAEL WILL BE SURROUNDED BY 24 ARAB STATES,..IS TYHAT WHAT YOU WISH FOR ISRAEL (if you are a REAL Samson that is)????
Dear Jew Chai, I believe Israel chose this spot in the world to have a state, because they felt it was their religious right. Now they have made their bed, and will have to lie in it. Do you think it is by chance that there are 25 Arab nations surrounding it?? Again, Israel chose this spot in the world....they thought it was owed to them, they took it illegally, and now have to deal with the consequences." And for the record, half of my family are American Jews. Being Jewish doesn't mean you have an inherent right to a piece of land. Unfortunately, the Jews as an ethnic group were traumatized on a monumental level, and now have it burned in their psyche that they are owed this chunk of land. The field of psychology explains it all....
No No No don t panic. Mr PM stay calm. No pullout needed.
Why do have to keep fighting the Palestinians? Im fed up? We need Bibi to try to bring this conflict to an end, before it exhausts us both.
but to which countries? The Arab countries which kicked them out, or the European countries which slaughtered them? Better off staying where they originally came from. But didn't Abraham cross over from the other side of the Jordan? Seems like none of you want them to stay where they have had a presence for ages, such as Hebron, Yehuda and the Shomron, Gaza and Jerusalem. And herein lies the problem. You want to kick them out of disputed territory which Palestinians rejected in 1948 and Israelis decided to make good use out of it.
...they rejected the partition of it in such a way that the Jews, who owned 5.8 percent of the land, would receive more than 50 percent, and that would have given Jews sovereignty over a territory with roughly equal numbers of Jews and Palestinians. It is clear from Zionist archival records that they only accepted the partition plan because they knew Arabs would reject it, and that it would be a temporary solution until the could, one way, or another, become the absolute rulers over the whole thing.
"none of you want [the Jews] to stay in Hebron, Yehuda, Shomron, Gaza and Jerusalem, and herein lies the problem.", said you. What problem? Go ahead and suit yourself: Annex all these places, with, of course ALL the population. What are you waiting for? You want the territories but not the inhabitants, that's the real problem - not because of the "wrong" color of their skin, but because they are of the "wrong" faith. There is a name for this. It is called Apartheid. Or will they be allowed to move and settle anywhere they wish in this "one state for two peoples" you seem to so ardently desire? "The colonization of Jerusalem and the West Bank, will render a two-state solution impossible, will force Israel to live with a sizeable Arab population, and to reconsider its democratic system." (Prof. Sari Nusseibeh, Dean of al-Quds University in East Jerusalem, in an interview with the French 'Le Figaro', 6 Jan 2010.)
The original partition accepted by the Jews only gave them thirty percent which they would have lived in. However the war of surrounding Arab armies led to the enlarged territory and state. It is so much easier to understand history when you know the proper facts!
Why don't the Arab nations, Syria, and Iran leave Israel alone, no law of mankind is above the Lord and His promise to the Jewish people that they will have this land. For His Will, will be done, period. Shalom
Too much death and theft in the name of this "Good God". How unintelligible one must be to have to have a book of some made up stories to justify the torture and theft of land and dignity.
1. "Why don't the Arab nations, Syria, and Iran leave Israel alone?" Why ask us? Ask them. 2. "His promise to the Jewish people that they will have this land." A) To believe that, one has to be a Jew. Go convert all the UN state-members. Good luck. We Jews have taught the Nations a full lot of things. One thing we cannot ever teach them is International Law. B) In May 1949, Israel entered the United Nations as a full member of the club. The Jewish People was left outside. Those teachers who told you otherwise lied to you. "Getting ourselves a state was hard, but losing it is easy." Pinhas Sapir (1906-1975), quoted by Amos Elon in his review of Tom Segev's book "1967: And the Country Changed its Face". See, "So misled by the leaders", Haaretz, July 22, 2005. www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=603316#
Negotiate. Negotiate honestly and fast. Get a deal with the Palestinians BEFORE the UN General Assembly proclaims that the borders of the Palestinian State are the Green Line.
West Bank seems to be ready. Israel could allow for West Bank to become independant. Gaza could be left as a no-man's land as it is now. With time, PA and Egypt could press Gaza to change course. Oh, and settlers? I am sorry, but who cares...
Israel is really running out of time in the diplomatic world. As its "friends" and "allies" start to get fed up with unfulfilled promises the U.S. might also start to weigh it as a liability. This is not something that should be falling on deaf ears and probably is a serious concern. For starters Israel MUST play the Palestinian game and Halt all settlement construction for a period of 365 days. The Palestinians and Israel must then immediately go back to the negotiating table without ANY preconditions. Both sides must immediately establish their lines in the sand. No refugees returning to Israel pre-1967, however some form of compensation will be paid. Jerusalem is off the table other than splitting its governance by a third party World body and UN troops providing security. All Palestinian factions must immediately be disarmed and a Palestinian national army must be formed which is committed to the principles of International law and cease all acts of terror. Much like Japan after world war two the New Palestinian state would only be allowed to have defensive weapons. Thats a starting point.
Your suggestions are great, except that you include quite a list of pre-conditions. The status of East Jerusalem, and the nature of the Army in a palestinian state are all negotiable from the starting point that they are palestinian decisions that can be bartered away if they so choose. People need to realise that time for negotiations is done - the only negotiations acceptable wil be the full recognition of a Palestinian state based on the 1967 green line - which is what will hopefully happen in September.
It's just not an effective method. He should know better. But he does look all big and aggressive so theres probably just no telling him what to do.
after their experiences with gaza and Lebanon that they should act unilaterally. Then I realise it is not Israelis stating they should act unilaterally, it is the settlers and their more nuttier supporters. Israel needs to come forward and give their plan for a comprehensive peace treaty with the Palestinian people including accepting their right to a viable Palestinian State in the West Bank.
These so called " settlers " are a disgrace to Israel and should be sent back to wherever they came from !
Israel can act honorably or as a thief. The former can restore respect, or the latter can isolate it more. To date the USA has ignored Israel's egregious behavior. With change sweeping the Middle East, the USA must be on the side of the Arab peoples, including Palestinians. Israel's occupation is an insult to all Arabs and all peoples.
How true there is a change in the wind and the change is not good, all around the world the signs are changing. Here in the United States are country suffers from economic and social challenges that threatens are very existence as a Christian nation "Under G-d". But it is our faith and our respect for our Heavenly Father and His Promise words to His many followers, including Israel. It is His promise that Israel will belong to the Jewish people and only our Lord can prevent that from happening. For our Lord doe's not break promises, nor does not lie. Shalom my Jewish friends, from the United States Shalom.
That would be a much better idea than trying to justify the unjustifiable. Any PR pro will tell you that you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.
Palestinians are being constantly reminded that recognizing Israel as a state is of vital importance for peace. But when it comes to the recognition of a Palestinian state Israeli hypocrisy is nauseating
the settlements always were a provocation for the future. the one things arabs can agree on his hatring israel and its further growth thru usurpation of arab land. the arabs will not forgive or forget, and particularly when they are in turmoil can agree to act in unison to attack israel. it is in israels best interest to unilaterly return to the borders and engage the power of defence of ones own territory that konrad lorenz talked about. if not, the settlers are setting the stage for a catastrophe on a par with the holocaust and destruction of the templers. over stepping the boundarie of morality and reason.
For Forty Years, and especially the last 20, Israel has arrogantly flaunted the Third Geneva Convention and the UN Charter. Netanyahu discarded the fig-leaf which allowed all to ignore the rapacious seizure of land that turned the Six Day War from one of defense to one which produced territorial gain - and thus became a war of aggression. Had Netanyahu continued to pretend that peace was possible and the 'peace process' credible the world would still be pretending that all would eventually be well and it need do nothing. Game over. Netanyahu made it absolutely clear that Israel's goal was the gradual annexation by settlement of all the West Bank, and therefore the world could no longer ignore the aggression. Now Bibi is vexed by what he so arrogantly wrought and bragged about. The Security Council can block action by the UN, but it cannot stop the General Assembly from admitting any nation. Israel's trillions spent upon settlements and the destruction of it's credibility as a civilized nation, will have been for naught.
Mark, you evidently lack comprehension and understanding of this part of the world. Israel while not perfect has been more forthcoming for peace. YOur one sided diatribe lacks any objectivity. In 1992 Israel initiated secret dialogue with the PLO. It was Israel that signed the peace treaty and began slowly withdrawing troops from the West Bank. DUring that time Arafat was double talking and still Israel was discussing peace. All the while Palestinian Terrorism was in full swing. Forget to mention that Mark? slipped your little mind? Sure Israel would have to take a tougher stand as any other sane nation who was having its citizens murdered. Again in 2000 Israel reached for peace and then more terror. See the cycle? again in 2008 serious negotiations took place. YOur annexation assumption is w/o merit. Bibi haulted building for 10 months!! Where were the Palestinians. The last two weeks of the deadline they decide to sit down?? See there are two sides to the story.
Israel is not all bad correct, Taba, for example was a good deal, it's just a shame the Israeli elections were coming up. However a lot of the thing you mention not true. For example the settlement freeze never existed, that is documented. Pals came to the table while construction was ongoing. That is something they should never do
The side of the story that you paint is a fiction and only ever existed in the world of PR. The Palestine papers has put paid to any serious attempt to bamboozle people about what is and has been going on. At the same time the wall went up and settlements continued and all the time the West Bank palestinians were trying to play the peace game. The world has seen how Israel reacts to the Palestinians when they 'behave' and it has destroiyed Israel's credibility. So, yes, there are two sides to the story, its just that the one you are telling doesnt and never did exist.
One result of the Holocaust was that the world, including Israel, outlawed the concept of taking land by force and then taking the land and settling your own nationals upon it. This law was the Third Geneva Convention. Israel signed it. The Settlements are a clear violation. The convoluted excuses have fooled few.
Who is afraid of getting annexed, then Israel will be a Muslim majority nation, Hhaaaaaa The end of the story,Israel.
Clearly, Israel and the Palestinians are deadlocked on Jerusalem, the size of a West Bank withdrawal and refugees.The Palestinians are ignoring the refugee issue for now as they try to sucker the international community into sanctioning and boycotting Israel for the territory.
I will have to pay for it
Palestinians have the same right to have their own State too. Enough is enough!
and again between 1949-1967 and again in 1998 , again in 2000 and again in 2008.... after all those rejections they finally want it.. ???
the palestine papers has blown that particlar line out of the water and revealed it for the empty propagander that it is. The revelation that Isreal wants a continual peace process but never an actual peace is what is driving this - nothing elese. The Hasbara account is now out of credit.
Everyone's been saying that for years. We should start sending security bills to Tel-Aviv. Enough is enough.
I expect terrorism and anti-Israel hatred on the left to continue regardless of any future peace settlement.
It's the settlers who radiate panic.
Take the blinders off - each withdrawal of the IDF has caused innocent Israeli soldiers and civilians to be murdered. The Arab Peace Plan is to destroy Israel Piece by Piece! The only question is whether Israel's leader will fight or submit.
Do you really think that Netanyahu can get away for much longer with doing nothing?
Netanyahu offered to negotiate directly with the Palestinians. So far all he got in response is rockets from Gaza at schoolbuses and civilians and brutal murder of Itamar family including children! It may take decades to find a Peace partner to negotiate with.
Anybody who knows the US congress knows vote trading. Once you know your vote does not count, you can vote against the bill you want. And scream! That way you kill two birds with one stone. You satisfy your constituents by lying to them and pretending you tried so hard to prevent the bill from passing. And you still get the nasty law passed that you really want passed. Likewise Obama has bowed to Kantor and AIPAC and promised never, never to make Israel surrender one inch. Now, the State Department knows, probably even had a hand in, the steps to unilaterally declare a Palestinian state. So they let the Pal state go ahead and happen, which is what they want, and at the same time they spread their open hands to Kantor and AIPAC and pretend to sob. If you don't get it, don't worry. It's complicated. But it's famous.
... ever since the mid-terms he's been looking concerned...
Right now the administration seems to be standing back to let things happen in the international arena - and your reasoning is probably part of the reason why - which is probably the best thing it can do to advance the Palestinian state short of risking political blackmail by AIPAC's congress.
I would be seriously unhappy about the purchase of congress by AIPAC. Perhaps Obama simply believes in Democracy and is trying to free the US
When african colonies obtained their independence millions of people had to move back to Europe - moving people around is not a problem. Those who chose to stay, at their own risk, became citizens of the new independent countries. The same should be applied to settlers, the PA should give them the option of becoming palestinian citizens or residents with israeli nationality,and to keep their homes, it's only fair.
you can not reward self- imposed colonizers with a Palestinian citizenship.
... that's fine, if the Palestinians agree to give them at least WB residency permits...
For decades Israel has tried to give the impression that they were travelling the road to peace when they were actually blocking the road to peace. Now the international community is trying to build an alternate road to peace in order to bypass Israel. They expect Israel to object to this and Israel has objected. Objection noted. Now sit down and shut up as the adults have some road building to accomplish.
have rejected any peace plan based in mutual recognition They drop partition, Camp David, Taba and Ulmart initiative. All of these initiatives ensured a palestinian state.
This is all a well orchestrated sham. The colonists will remain where they are and growing. There is nothing substantive in what netanyahu is proposing. Its nothing but a regurgitation of already digested platitudes and feigned offerings. If there is any withdrawal of IDF forces it will be from very limited areas while entrenchment of the occupation will continue. What he is telling the colonists is: "Hold on boys! This is nothing more than another stall and slow down with some rehashing mixed in and let's just wait it out and then go on as before." You know the game.
-The blockade - doesn't work - where are the rockets coming from? - The non recognition of a Palestinian state - how can you declare all out war on the 'occupied' who use terror tactics? - Shalit - we keep supplying gas food and aid to Hamas. What is their motivation to relese Shalit.? - The iron dome - even a fool knw this will be useless on the next generation of rockets Iran and China supply. - World opinion - Israeli policy has turned the world against us - we let the Palestinians get all the publicity. So what next.
and wonder why the world didn’t do anything about the illegal occupation, illegal blockade, illegal annex, illegal settlement, illegal nuke possessing.
is that the Prime Minister of Israel has openly suggested an Israeli withdrawal from Palestine. An acceptance that Israel is now talking about borders with a future Palestinian State and must start negotiations now to get the best deal for Israel. No wonder the settlers are panicing, their cushy government subsidised lives are coming to an end.
Worried about unilateral moves by PAL? Don't make unilateral moves yourself. I mean, the list of Israeli unilateral moves is VERY LONG. Such condescending racism is long overdue for a serious comeuppance
Talks are stalled and the Pals are waiting till Sept. However if talks were ongoing then the Pals will not be able to go to the UN in Sept. I say scupper their plans and call there bluff by bringing them to the table. Announce all building in Judea & Samaria has stopped. (It almost has in reality anyway) and then they have to talk. While Israel has suspended construction if the Pals won't talk or walk then they will be the ones left with nothing and looking like the bad guys. If we talk then we can negotiate the agreement based on our terms. This Sept bullshit can be stopped now. The Pals are banking on Sept but if Israel pulls a surprise move like agreeing to their terms for talks then they will be gutted and it's back to our advantage.
Any such stop can be only short term during which Pals would just drag their feet from making any agreements. Besides this, they want construction stop in Jerusalem which Israel annexed.
"can't stop construction for natural growth" -- Immigration from abroad into settlements is not natural growth. It is intentional expansion.
67 Borders with minor land swaps. Split jerusalem with guarantees of religious access to both sides. Settlements designed to kill pal state like ariel must go. Settlements that don't block contiguous Palestine can stay with land swaps. Normalisation between Israel and arab states. De-militarised Palestine. Ror minimal return to israel, most refugees take former settler homes in palestine. Joint comitees to stop incitement joint projects to encourage neighbourly relations - reconciliation. The big problem is gaza. Here's my suggestion. Israel keeps the blockade but only for weapons, food and aid is let through after checking, Israel maintains border control until Hamas or whoever is in power agrees to join new pal state and stop violence. This should be written into the peace deal as a future option that Israel cannot renege on. Obviously Hamas would first have to do a lot of the work the PA has done building state, countering terror. Once that is done they can join. Once gazans see west bank pals building their state they will want some of that sweet action.
You write "Hamas would first have to ...work ...countering terror." Right now, Hamas = terror. For them to turn a full 180 degrees and actually enforce a peace treaty with the very Zionist entity that they have sworn to destroy? That's a big transformation. Also, I agree with you that the WB and Gaza are two different, disconnected and distinct political entities. However, in the Arab world it is sacrilege to talk about dividing Palestine, despite its divided reality. That's just two points. You should look for what Shimon Peres has said about the conflict; the solution is known (roughly what you described above) but it's the political will and trust on both sides that's missing.
Israel has a legitimate right to defend itself against attack. If the UN establishes a Palestinian state West Bankers will hopefully use that as a springboard towards a better future. If Hamas continues to attack Israel and suffers legitimate retaliation, how long before the ordinary Gazan decides life would be more preferable under Fatah, rather then as a pawn being used in a terrible game by Iran?
The need for sensing or intensifying has long since past. '67 borders with EJ as capital and that dear friends is that.
Netanyahu has some strong qualities, such as determination, intelligence, creativity, and more, otherwise he would not have become leader of his party TWICE, even after failing the first time around. The one quality which he is very good at is Public Relations; he can put good spin on things. This may be his great talent, and he tried to develop it by getting his graduate degree (masters) in Marketing. But Netanyahu has one great weakness which overwhelms his better sides: Political Cowardice. Netanyahu may come up with a productive idea, such as in his Bar Ilan speech, but then opponents, and political dangers, rear their threatening heads, and Bibi withdraws into inaction. This also requires him to lie to friends and enemies alike about his reasons. What should he have done after Bar-Ilan? The first action should have been to go to his party Likud and try to convince them of the need. After all, the party ran for elections on a platform of "no Palestinian state, only autonomy". That might have led to a Likud revolt, a breakup of the party, etc. Netanyahu found a way out: Likud never debated the speech! Another appropriate action would have been to bring the speech issue before the Cabinet, to debate and accept the idea as policy. Well, the Cabinet never debated, so Lieberman could propose in the UN a different policy...you get the idea. Netanyahu refrains from getting into any "danger", so he tells the US he cannot take steps or his government will fall. He was not able even to pressure Shas to accept US unwritten, but crazily large inducements, military, financial and political, in order to extend the partial freeze on settlement construction for THREE miserable months. (Shas insisted on WRITTEN promises, which the US could not give for moral/legal reasons.) This cowardice is the essence of Netanyahu's tragedy, a talented man, who should be a leader in industry perhaps, but not in a political system which has so many opponents.
In case Israel does not notice, the international community wants Israel to get down from their high horse and do something to settle this. So far unilateral has been from the Israeli side (okay, with US support). As for those troublesome settlers, you cannot encroach on your neighbors property and expect to be there forever. Perhaps it will be good experience for them to feel like a Palestinian.
My thoughts for what is worth..As far as I am concerned I AM CORRECT.We cannt sacrifice our Jews to please the PA or anyone else.. They are Jews and our people.Not strangers to play games with at will.Judea and Samaria is Jewishand will remain so.. irrespective of what BB,or anyone who tries to deny this is nothing but appeasing israel's enemies...And this will NEVER DO OR SHOULD
But what if the Palestinians won't go to Egypt or Jordan as you wish they would. They have ties to the land as recognised by Ben Gurion and even that settler leader said so. You seem to be advocating constant war with the Palestinians. That is your prerogative but it is not a moral position. Imagine if US or UK treated it's Jews like that. Also if you want war, don't complain when you get it. You want a war where only Palestinians die. Please, why not compromise, try to see things from Palestinian perspective no?
just shut the hell up. ur messianic obsession to build on land that is not ours has brought Israel to its knees. Today, Israel has a state. After September, Israel will still have a state but with no legitimacy.
If Israel had not made settlements which I disagreed with over 40 yrs ago before I even visited here ,we would not now be in such a mess.No-one cooses their parentage,but a 3rd generation Arab on West Bank did not create thge situation in which he now finds himself.It is people like you who have ruined it for peace loving Israelis.The people who settle on West Bank from perfectly good conditions in USA etc DID have choices,but chose to come uinder delusions of'G-d given right.G-d created everyone Jew,Arab,Christian.Please remember that.
Your racism is just blatantly transparent. Israel a ghetto?? Really? Israel is one of the richest and most developed nations in the world! Get your facts straight!
Gaza or should i call no roof prison
Unfortunately Israel is in fact a have-not nation. You obviously don't get around much.
I dont think the Settler Council negotiated with the Palestinians before they unilaterally stole and continue to steal the land.. the SC radiates of BS
You can't have it both ways.
It is up to Palestinian State to accept or not any colonizer.
not any palestinians the right to return. They can return to Palestine, maybe live in left houses?
Pulling out is cowardly, whether in this case or sex! Responsibility for your actions and following through is the right course! But prophecy will be fulfilled God having known what you would ahead of time!
You can wat and wait and wait.... The NON-DECIDER....
“If it was up to me I'd let the settlers stay. And when this mess is resolved, if the settlers find themselves on the Palestinian side of the border they'll be Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians. Israel has Arabs, Palestine can have Jews. My guess is that if the settlers were informed that these are the eventual consequences, a great number of them would pick up and leave. The zealots would stay. I hope they enjoy themselves living in Palestine, spending Palestinian money, traveling on Palestinian passports, licking Palestinian postage stamps. Settlers,,,,,,, Enjoy!
America makes clear that no compensation (extortion money) will ever be paid to the settlers that leave. As long as they think they can hold out for a payment from the US taxpayer, they will continue to think that they can extort us like that.
Very well, Now consider the diplomatic, economic, security and other pressures available to the world.
small step, but at least in the right direction. would have hoped, however that they would stop building first. why pour money down the rat hole of settlements???
German Army of 1938 wasn't as strong as it looked the contemporary research show .Chech Army was superbly equipped ,trained and had the terrain advantage. Germany got so strong in 1939 in significant part because of the Chech weapons produced by the Skoda factories. Needless to say fate of Chechoslovakia is nothing,she ressurected after 1945 ,with the fate awaiting Israel if it succubs to the Western pressure directed by the same motives as Chamberlain had
Comparisons between Chechoslovakia and Israel are utterly irrelevant. Chechoslovakia does abide by International Law.
Jerusalem-1920- Arabs mobs murder Jews Jaffa- 1921- Arab mobs murder Jews Hebron 1929- Arab mobs murder Jews Israel - 1947- 5 Arab armies attack Israel The 1st three examples were before the 1947 mandate and the last is when the State of israel breathed its 1st breadth only to be attacked by the whole Arab neighborhood.
The US, Brits, France and Russia occupied Germany for years after WW2 to insure that they were de-Nazified and no longer posed a threat to peace. Germany would not have gotten its independence back if it were still murdering Jews and calling for holy war against Non-Aryans, so who should Israel treat the defeated Arabs any differently?
Taking land from them and building settlements.
names like Königsberg,Stettin,Breslau etc disappeared ,together with 12 million Germans deported from there.
... for one country to defend both sides of the same border. That's why we left Gaza, and not it is time to leave the West Bank as well - for the same reason.
giving land to any enemy is a message of panic. If they want it, let them fight for it like Israel did. The difference is, Israel fought every battle, and ( thank G-d ) won. Keep it that way or, suffer the slings and arrows of those avowed to your destruction.
.... If the world took your approach it would be very bad news for those of us in diaspora
How do you give away someone else's property?
This battle is being played out on the international stage and, thanks to the good Lord praise be, Israel has lost.
The land already belonged to the Palestinians not as a nation but as individuals. It was stolen from by israel and the settlers. what does the settler council think will happen to all the Palestinians after it assumes "sovereignty over Judea and Sumaria"? will they become Israeli citizens? Or would the settler council advocate the expulsion of an entire group of people? is this a case of "this is what our people went through now it is your turn"?
The choice is simple. It's clearly not their land.
The Jewish talibans are complaining, so sad...lol!! If they're not happy there's much homes for sale in Detroit, Utah or Russia.... and cheap cheap my friend! That would be good for Israel, Israelis, Jews and of course the Palestinian people!
In Bibi's shoes it may be a prudent move to increase personal security. Some of the loony tune Rightwingers may decide to price tag him.
He has no choice. Who knows what he will get from the US and others in return?
If Obama wanted to make some giant waves such as the quest for peace has never seen before, the way to do it is to cut aid to Israel. This is the normal process used when a nation otherwise friendly with America is out of line to American policy. In order for Obama to credibly make such a move, it is important that he not be considered "anti-Israel". This could explain why Obama vetoed the settlement resolution at the UN. This was a big deal and he supported Israel in a very public way. In the current financial climate in which we see the Tea Party guys in the American congress trying to squeeze every cut they can from the American budget we know that the congress still supports Israel for reasons that we won't get into here. If Obama went to war with the congress over financial aid to Israel the congress would lose. They would lose quickly and they would lose big. Netanyahu would walk ten miles over fresh camel dung to avoid this scenario. My guess is that Obama is itching to pull the trigger anyway, so he will not give an inch. Nothing else exaplians Netanyahu's actions. Nothing else explains Obama's actions. Nothing else is more called for or more overdue.
The US is in a economic crunch. So the days of aid to Israel (and others) are coming to an end.
With Gas revenues aid will not be needed. In Netanyhau's first term he actually advocated cutting non military aid. He is not opposed
it will hardly be noticed or missed. People don't turn down free money so it was welcomed, but not needed.
Certainly Israel can get by without American financial aid, but American aid to Israel is something much larger than a few dollars and cents. First of all, American aid to Israel is a direct indicator of the amount of influence Israel has over the American government. This is something which is taken note of all over the world. Secondly, American political aid to Israel is far more important than financial aid. In the past, it has always been assumed that America would make it's UN veto available to Israel on every resolution concerning Israel. This is slowly changing. Thirdly, American military aid to Israel has helped to form the hardened "anti-peace" mentality of Israelis. Even if Israel actually paid for advanced American aircraft with it's own money, America has no obligation to sell those aircraft to Israel. Now just because America were to cut financial aid to Israel, this doesn't mean that America would cut all aid to Israel, but having Americans questioning their aid to Israel is a road that Israel does not even want to consider going down.
This is the same spineless coward who gave up Hebron!
1 if the palestinians want a state, they need to sit down and start immediate direct negotiations with israel. 2 if the palestinians agree to immediate direct negotiations, israel will stop building new projects in the west bank for a period of six months to be counted from the day the negotiations start. 3 if the palestinian refuse to sit down for direct negotiations with israel, israel will counter any unilateral moves by the pa with unilateral moves by israel. annexation of jewish blocks in judea samaria would be one such step.
"annexation of jewish blocks in judea samaria would be one such step" -- Israel annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem, unrecognised to this very day. You believe that another unrecognised annexation is a threat?
The cruicial point is..that we should never abandon Yesha..It is not called "west bank"but Judea/Samaria ..On this point I disagree with you CJK The palestinians cannot decide to unilaterally form a state..How is it possible when they have as yet NOT accepted the Jewish state,dithering on this most important aspect. or have I misunderstod you on this point.. The com,plaints by the Settler Council is JUST AND CORRECT.. If Netanyahu accepts the demands of the PA ,then he might as well give the whole country away.. Even the Democrats are behid Israel and not the reverse..At east as far as my understanding is..
67 Borders with minor land swaps. Settlements designed to kill pal state like ariel must go. Settlements that don't block contiguous Palestine can stay with land swaps. Normalisation between Israel and arab states. De-militarised Palestine. Ror minimal return to israel, most refugees take former settler homes in palestine. Joint comitees to stop incitement joint projects to encourage neighbourly relations. The big problem is gaza. Here's my suggestion. Israel keeps the blockade but only for weapons, food and aid is let through after checking, Israel maintains border control until Hamas or whoever is in power agrees to join new pal state and stop violence. This should be written into the peace deal. Once gazans see west bank pals building their state they will want some of that sweet action.
"if the palestinians agree to immediate direct negotiations, israel will stop building new projects in the west bank for a period of six months to be counted from the day the negotiations start." Already you're in the realm of fantasy - you know fine well that Bibi can't? won't? freeze settlements. He won't do it for huge american aid and support promises. he won't do it to stop a diplomatic tsunami. Your plan, as silly as it is, is based on something that just couldn't happen. (btw, the Palestinans have said ofetn enough they'll return to talks for a settlement freeze, so your basically agreeing with Abbas on point 2)
There will not be any 67 ones ever..It is like asking for Israel to commit suicide,;They are call the ARMISTICE LINES that may...i say may in the future be changed to accommodate the Pals.(long time from now if at all)1 no RoR ever, 2 Ariel Gilo and the rest that the Jewish population are in their THOUSANDS.. you cannot displace them at will. 3 Normaiization with the Arabs? An illusion 4 joint comitees stoping incitement? Joke too far..The Arabs are the culprits in that quareter NOT Jews.5 -Lastly ..having read your proposed ideas that sound good but naive (sorry ) according to your wonderful vision everything will be hunky dorry? Wish it were so (Hungry) But it has been tried and failed.If you give any credence to hamas..then my friend you are lost..
i never said that the palestinians can or should decide unilaterally on anything. to the contrary, i said specifically, that if they want a state, they need to negotiate. if they agree, then we shall see how far they will go to compromise. israel will be willing to give up large parts of judea-samaria in exchange for an end to the conflict. israel will not give up any of the large jewish blocks or much of jerusalem. i am sorry to say that at this point in history that is how things look. however, should the palestinians refuse to negotiate and deal, and should there be a unilateral declaration of state, then anything could happen. my personal preference would be to divide cijordanie between israel and jordan. that would be the best and fairest solution. the palestinians could get autonomy annd federate with jordan. gaza could federate with egypt. gaza would remain demiliterised. i know right now that a whole bunch of people will start screaming at me with all thumbs down. so, there. regards, dear katheleen
I lived in Israel. I made a mistake in buying one in Rehovot instead. Ariel will remain part of Israel, and has become a great town!
keep in mind, israel is not lybia. keep in mind, too, even in lybia nato is having difficulties. believe me, there will be no palestinian state without israel's cooperation. to get israel's cooperation, there must be a negotiated peace treaty between israel and the palestinians putting an end to the conflict.
Jordan ist absolute not inclined to cooperate in making zionists' personal preferences come true. Posts like yours show that you zionists are out of touch with reality.
they are negotiating with the Quartet and not with Israel. And by the look of things Netanyahu has had to resort to jumping up and down waving his arms about screaming 'What about me' Fact is it has become apparent that in the battle against Islamic fundamentalism and in securing oil supplies it is in the International Community's best interest to advance the cause of Palestinian nationhood. All the Palestinians have to do is sit tight makes sure the more nuttier elements don't do anything stupid, complain about the illegal settlements, and agree to whatever the Quartet propose within reason. And the total lack of reaction in the International community to the Fogel murders mainly because they were settlers shows the Palestinian's campaign of delegitimisation of the settlements and the people in them has worked. The Palestinians have no need to take part in Netanyahu's charade about talks about talks about whether the Palestinian people should declare Israel Jewish. The settlers should realise that the jig is up and start campaigning for the Israeli government to build sustainable housing in Israel proper so they can re-establish their lives.
I said that Hamas (or whoever governs gaza) could only join pal state once they put in place many of the institutions the PA have done- fight terror etc. I said MINIMUM ror to Israel so Israel keeps Jewish character. Incitement does happen on both sides, it happens more on Arab side, but that is unsurprising as it's Arabs being occupied not Jews. It is not asking Israel to commit suicide, far from it. In gaza there would be no change except gazans would not be so angry, Israel would still control Borders. In west bank the PA have shown they can control terror. ANYWAY what are your great ideas Kathleen? You don't have any except expell pals to Jordan which is immoral ethnic cleansing and even bibi would not stoop so low. So your only idea is constant war and oppression. You are a warmongering extremist, same as Hamas. If I am wrong then tell me your great suggestion that is fair to both people. Do you have one?
jordan might not be inclined; yet the idea per se is sound. it is certainly at least as sound as the idea of making a state out of gaza and cijordanie which are territories separated by israel. indeed, i consider this latter proposition to be farcical. jordan might, with proper incentives, become more inclined.
Although I recognise that you are trying to find a solution unlike Kathleen who wants endless war and pals to simply go away, you are still looking at everything through the prism of Israel. As an example when Israel say 'we offered pals 97% of west bank', what that really means is 'we want 3% of west bank'. That is Palestinian compromise not Israeli. Can you see this? The basis for negotiations are 67 lines. Pals have already compromised from that starting position. The geneva accords were not written to make life hard for Israel. The only real peace will be a just peace. Best wishes
in true british colonial fashion you have declared the game over. i read that your pm went on an apology tour as a tribute to obama. i have also read that the brits and the french, put together, cannot defeat the small lybian army. lastly, i read, right here on haaretz, that the us wants to postpopne the quartet meeting. the u.s., most likely, will not agree to a unilateral declaration by the palestinians. abbas had overplayed his hand when after being treated in a princly manner by obama. he rebuffed him and refused to sit down and negotiate. the u.s. congress does not have much sympathy for the palestinians. they seem a pragmatic bunch, and they see through the charade. nor do they look kindly on terrorists anywhere.
Britain and France are not battling the Lybian army. As you should know best from your Hamas and Hezbollah experience, air operations cannot defeat an army, and are not supposed to do so. Only ground forces can.
How on earth would Israel say "you sit down with us and we stop building". It would be like a six months pause in the pizza-eating fest of building legal and illegal settlements and "outposts". If Netanyahu is sincere in his Bar Ilan speach, building settlements (I'm not talking about Gilo) is a flagrant contradiction. You can't negotiate a pizza, while one side is eating it up. It's either - or, Cipora.
Presumably, Netanyahu has a little more inside information than the Yesha Council of Settlers or Moshe Arens, so they are in no position to sit in judgement upon Netanyahu's actions. One thing we know. Netanyahu, like Sharon before him is a life long enemy to the Palestinians. If they do something which appears to be appeasement, you can bet that there is more to it than meets the eye. My guess is that Obama would suspend support to Israel if he does not get his way here. There would be a major political skirmish with the congress, but the congress cannot defend giving so much aid to Israel at the same time they are slashing aid to Americnas. This is a battle that Israel doesn't want to see. Not now at least. This is the only thing that could cause Netanyahu to "panic" in this way. If this is the scenario, and I believe it is, Netanyahu has good cause to panic.
Netanahyu is worried about the UN; aid to Israel will be cut a bit; Netanyahu knows this but the dollars of aid and the cuts are really immaterial nowadays. You place much more importance on the financial aid than it merits; I do agree the diplomatic support is crucial - there may be something going on there
Be prepared for a propaganda onslaught from ND , She will tell you that the US pays for IDF fuel, failing to mention that that money is including in the 2.5 billion figure that everyone throughs around
The agreement by which America pays for israel's fuel is seperate and actually a much older agreement than the current agreement to give Israel three billion every year. Technically, the three billion is divided into two pots. Two billion are supposed to be spent in America, on weapons or weapons related purposes. The remaining billion is to be spend i Israel on weapons, weapons development or R&D. In reality, none of this three billion has any congressional oversight and no American politician wants to discuss how this money is actually spent. A few years ago there was an article about how some of the money was spent on hand made mezuzahs, crafted by Jewish American "craftsmen". After that, there was no longer any reporting on this money. The IDF fuel money was begun during the oil crunch in the late 1970's It was meant to "cushion" Israel from fluctuating oil prices which may impact on military defense. obviously it was abused, as it is still going on and is one a several little known conduits of American money to Israel.
I suggest a freeze that starts on first day of talks so pals cannot take freeze without talking. Fair?
The answer is easy: it has always belonged to the "Arab state" defined in UNGA Res 181. Neither Jordan's occupation 1948-67 nor Israel's occupation 1967-now changes that one iota. That's why the claim by Bibi that the ONLY way the Pals can have a state is via direct negotiation with him is nonsensical i.e. they certainly need to negotiate with him to END THE OCCUPATION, but they don't need his permission to claim ownership of this land.
was a freeze... then I would like to inform that Iran also froze its uranium enrichment project but not included in that are few things: 1. they get to keep all the centrifuges 2. all nuclear facilities keep running 3. no inspectors allowed oh btw, they need to do that for "security reasons"
The land of course belongs, as you say, to "the Arab state" as it was defined in UNGAR 181. This is a good riposte to all the deniers of Palestine and the Palestinian Arabs, who suggest that the unwanted bits of the occupied territories (those with the highest concentration of Palestinian Arabs) should go to Jordan or Egypt, just because the latter two occupied parts of Palestine between 1948 and 1967. I had not heard your line of reasoning before, but it makes comon sense. You obviously have a background in the legal profession.
Hopefully it's not on the USA s dime
you are highly mistaken to so think. neither the disengagement from lebanon, in totality, nor the disengagement from gaza, has born any fruit. egypt, too, still considers israel as the main enemy. disangagement must be carried out only within the framework of peace negotiations. obama will just have to put the screws on abbas for a change.
I wrote "with them or without them" meaning they come with us NOT WE WITH THEM!
"Oh its the "occupation" : Really?
The Palestinian Arabs (PA) determining what loyalty oath the Palestinian Jews (PJ's) would have to swear to if they wanted full citizenship. The PA determining which land titles were valid. The PA determining where closed military zones would be established and the land confiscated. The PA determining how much funding goes to PA schools and how much to PJ schools. The PA determining which nationalities are allowed to be on which highways. The PA courts determing which acts of violence are terrorism and which are self defense. The PA determining where checkpoints were needed and which nationalities had to wait to go through them. The PA police determing when protests get enough out of hand to justify using live ammunition on the demonstrators. The PA derermining when it was ok to use administrative detention to lock someone up without access to family or lawyers or any civil rights for months and years.
Does not fit your narrative does it
Of course they want to stay in Israel - that's their home!
They think that if Israeli Arabs are "treaeted" better than in an Arab dictatorship, they should be ok. Hmmm. Maybe true. But if you call yourself a democracy, you should "treat" all of your citizens the same. Otherwise YOU ARE JUST AN APARTHEID REGIME!!!
...since they would find themselves with a large, hostile minority within their borders, the obvious choice would be to place them under a separate, military rule for about 20 years, forming collaborator networks, dividing and ruling, and cracking down hard on any dissent. Next is to use a separate and grossly underfunded school system to try to indoctrinate them with Arabic and Palestinian History. If any of the Palestinian Jews, left their land, even within the new Palestine, the PA could confiscate their land, assets, and property with a Present Absentee Law, and even if they didn't they'll just declare the land they want closed military zones and confiscate it, moving Arabs in a couple years later. Power, water, health and sewage treatment? Good luck! Want to build a new house? Look out for the bulldozer! Can you just imagine Israel on Campus holding Palestinian Apartheid Week Demonstrations with a totally straight face?
,sing "biladi, biladi..." , learn about the rich past of the Arabic/islamic civilisations, something you propably were never confronted with during your zionist upbringing., You will need to study the lives of important historic Palestinian personalities, like Abu Ammar, Abu Jihad, Aby Iyad etc. ertc. And of course you will have to become good neighbours with the Palestinian vilages you stole land from. Most of it you will have to give back. But if you do that you are welcome to become a Palestinian citizen, equal to all other Palestinians under the Palestinian constitution. The choice is yours.