Report: Obama pressured Israel and Turkey to hold secret talks
Barak opposed idea of Ben-Eliezer meeting Turkish FM, according to associates; Lieberman furious with Netanyahu for not informing him of plan, but says matter won't lead Yisrael Beiteinu to quit coalition.
By Barak Ravid and Haaretz Service Tags: Barack Obama Turkey Israel news Gaza flotillaA senior Israeli official's secret meeting with the Turkish foreign minister in Switzerland was apparently held due to pressure from the Obama administration, sources in Jerusalem said Thursday.
The White House prompted and coordinated the meeting between Israeli Industry, Trade, and Labor Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer and Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, the source confirmed in response to a report in the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet.
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Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, Turkish FM Ahmet Davutoglu. |
| Photo by: AP |
The meeting was held Wednesday without permission from Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who reacted furiously to the news that such talks were held without his knowledge or consent.
Associates of Defense Minister Ehud Barak said he had opposed the meeting and told Prime Minister Netanyahu as much, though ultimately decided not to veto the matter.
The defense minister had declined advice to hold his own meeting with the Turkish envoy to the U.S. or even Davutoglu during his recent visit to Washington, the associates added.
Davutoglu took off for Zurich on a private plane to maintain the clandestine nature of the talks, Hurriyet reported on Thursday, and the conference room was booked under a fake name.
During their two-hour meeting, Davutoglu reportedly reiterated Turkey's demand that Israel apologize for its May 31 raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla that left nine Turkish activists dead.
After learning about the meeting, Lieberman warned that the move had damaged his relationship with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
"The foreign minister takes a very serious view of the fact that this occurred without informing the Ministry of Foreign Affairs," Lieberman's office said in a statement immediately following the report. "This is an insult to the norms of accepted behavior and a heavy blow to the confidence between the foreign minister and the prime minister."
Lieberman on Thursday rejected Netanyahu's bid to meet, though denied speculations that his Yisrael Beiteinu party was planning to leave the coalition over the matter.
"The system of considerations here must be different… this is a big, strong and stable coalition… this is the time to think big and not just about what the headline will be in the newspaper on Friday."
The foreign minister said his response could not be considered an unwarranted "outburst", telling Israel Radio: "The Prime Minister's Bureau should have considered and dealt with this matter differently, or at the very least consulted [with me]."
"Suddenly we discover that the defense minister and other senior officials were in on the matter and that the whole process was coordinated with the U.S.," he said. "When you heard all these details and every half an hour there are more details, it becomes completely unreasonable."
Ben-Eliezer, a Knesset member of Defense Minister Ehud Barak's Labor party, has over the past few weeks expressed concern over Israel's deteriorating relationswith Turkey. Ties between the once-close allies have come close to breakdown following a deadly raid by Israeli commandos on a Turkish-flagged aid ship a month ago.
Wednesday's talks were apparently aimed at repairing the diplomatic damage.
Later on Wednesday, Netanyahu's office released a statement that cited technical grounds for the failure to inform Lieberman of the meeting in Zurich.
Turkish officials had approached Ben-Eliezer personally with a request for an informal discussion, which the prime minister had seen no cause to block, the statement said.
"In recent weeks there have been several attempts at contacts with Turkey of which the foreign ministry was aware," the statement said. "The foreign minister was not informed for technical reasons only. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is working in full cooperation with the foreign minister and will clarify the incident with him."
Lieberman's hard-line Yisrael Beiteinu party is the second largest in the government coalition, behind Netanyahu's Likud. But the foreign minister's right-wing views have made him unpalatable to many of Israel's allies and he has often taken a back seat internationally, leaving high-level diplomacy to Netanyahu and Barak.
Following Israel's May 31 raid, Ben-Eliezer broke with other ministers in demanding an international inquiry into the incident, in which nine pro-Palestinian activists with Turkish citizenship were killed.
Israel is conducting its own probe, led by a former Supreme Court judge and monitored by two international observers.
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It is for sure Turkish and Israeli people have never been close to each other or they have never been friends. There was some kind of artificial “friendship” / alliance among the politicians under the pressure of US’ Middle East strategies. It is over now. Even President Obama cannot bring those bad old days back. Happy “loneliness” to Israel. Israel should construct higher walls all around or the Israelis should apply to US for double citizenship. By the way, Israel applies embargo to the Turkish products as a punishment for the recent events. How sad! Number of pupils studying in the primary and secondary schools is more than 15 million in Turkey. So if Israeli people consider Turkey as a country conducting terrorist attracts against Israel then they need be worried big time.
"They come at you with knives and sticks" and thats the excuse you guys have??? I told you, use other weapons (gas, tasers, plastic bullets). If not, then at least your brave commandos can hit them on the legs, or the arms, NOT THE HEAD....Killing civilians and defending it is not civil...That won't happen in a civilized country. I hope you guys come to your senses one day...but I doubt it...
Unlike Europe, which suffers from guilt feelings about the Holocaust and its anti-semitic past which ultimately brought it about, and therefore is cautious when it comes to acting against Israel, the US does not feel a sense of blame about the Holocaust since it did not participate in it. On the contrary, the US feels great pride in saving the world from Nazism. The positive feeling in the US toward Israel is based on common ideals and of course some Jewish influence on the Congress. But never before did Israel act AGAINST perceived US interests. The US and the West are threatened by radical Islam, and a major battle cry of the Islamists is the Palestinian situation. Israel must help the US in removing this problem so that it is not used to recruit more terrorists. Instead, Israel ignores the Arab initiative for peace, and Netanyahu makes every effort to continue the occupation and undermine the peace talks with Abbas. The breakdown of relations with Turkey is another burden Israel imposes on the US. Turkey, a member of NATO,and Israel, are two allies of the US and when they don't get along a third party can come in and cause some real harm (e.g., Iran). This is the reason Obama saw the need to pressure his two friends to talk to each other. What do you know? Turkey sends its Foreign Minister to the talks and Israel sends a lower level minister who is not even one of the "Seven wise men". Obama ought to be saying to himself :"with friends like these, who needs enemies"?
obama should stop meddling. he has no understanding of foreign affairs. he thinks he can govern with dictates and speeeches. he calls saudi king wise, while saudia is financing the taliban that are killing american troops.
Israel should also send aid in a boat to all the descendants of the Armenians Genocide who live oppressed by Turkish government.
Well...they could...if it were 1915. But there aren't any Armenians in Turkey anymore so....? Your argument still doesn't excuse anything. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Israel knows a lot better what's better for Israel than the U.S. which is concerned with its own agenda! Israel is a Western Country whose allies should be those in Europe rather than those who are overtly Muslim and make overtures to such counties as Iran and Syria!
Perhaps if Lieberman connects the dots and realizes that he is a 'fifth wheel" with no function except as a coalition lackey ( and foreign office spoiler), he could muster enough pride to back out of the position he holds? Nah, too much to hope for.
Which is more important: Israel-Russian relations or Israel-Turkish relations? Lieberman is doing a splendid job KEEPING ISRAEL FROM BEING SEWN UP (SWALLOWED UP) IN A MUSLIM MIDDLE EAST.
and promise that there won't be any terrorist attacks organized in Turkey against Israel, and then Israel will express regret for the loss of life on the Turkish ship. This is the only only formula Israel should accept; anything else would be seen as surrender and invite more terror attacks.
I think you have to go over the definition of terrorist attack. Please don't be ridiculous..
The Israeli commandos, armed with paintball guns, were attacked with knives and iron bars.
If they were terrorists they'd attack to the IDF soldiers with guns not with knifes or metal sticks ıf they weren't stupid.So get yourself to the situation they were not terrorists.
Just so you guys know it was in brussels not in zurich. Israeli minister came to brussels to speak to turkish minister.
Why should Israel bother with the opinion of the International community as long as it has the White House,Senate and Congress always on its side? Israel is the most powerful nation in the region and can keep the Arabs in their place as long as it receives a blank cheque from the States.
A new era in the area , hoping peace and new borders in the area.
"Report: Obama pressured Israel and Turkey to hold secret talks". In my opinion, President Obama, a likable fellow destined for simply one term, couldn't pressure the White House dog into anything. He is hopelessly compromised for whatever reason we don't know. A man who held out so much hope. If he had the "you know what" he could solve most Middle East problems in a second but he can't do this, not that he won't, simply because he can't for whatever reasons of the "powers behind the throne" have over him. Now back to the basic question given that background. How could President Obama pressure anyone?
...reported that while Mr. Barak did not favor the now-famous meeting--and told Mr. Netanyahu "as much"--he nevertheless chose not to "VETO" it. (And--like Forrest Gump--while "that's all I've got to say about that"--it don't mean I'm not thinkin' a whole bunch of stuff.)
Foreign minister refuses to not turn former ally into enemy. When more reasonable forces insist on dialogue, he goes into a snit and refuses to talk to PM, but won't leave coalition either. Foreign diplomacy is not the only problem here.
... represented by G20 in Toronto, issued a joint statement a few days ago which, although expressing "regret for loss of life", did not criticize Israel for handling of the Marmara. That was a devastating slap in the face to Erdogan, and explains the desperate plea for an apology. No apology should be forthcoming, Israel is quite correct by any measure, the nattering talkbackers nothwithstanding.
Impressed by the quality of that what so called 'civilization'!!!. Since when terrorizing and killing civillians at high seas is called 'Civilization'?
that you purposely were left out because no one wants you in the picture including the US and your own government..Is it may be because everyone view you as a detriment to Israel and its standing amongst the nations?
I can't believe some of you israelis can still justify your commandos actions at the flotila incident. 9 dead Turks may have ill intentions but there is no excuse for killing 9 civilians in international waters. Surely there were many other options available before hitting them in the head with real bullets. Use plastic bullets, taser guns, or use tear gas etc. Many other options are available. But NOO...Your military chose to kill them with real bullets. One guy had 4 bullets in the head. Now, how do you defend that? Enough said!
... and you were confronted in an alley by a gang of 20 mean looking dudes coming at you with chains, metal bars, knives and baseball bats, would you let them kill you, or would you at some point reach for your gun?
Israel wanted to use riot gear ( plastic bullets, tear gas etc ) but good old Obama who Bibi had to get authorization from for this operation insisted no riot gear so the comandos were sent with paintball guns and pistols for self defense. The paintball guns are useless against a mob and they were attacked by a mob armed with clubs and knives, they tried to throw the commandos overboard and stole pistols. They were defending themselves. The fact it was in international waters means nothing because under the Helsinki Principles it is legal to board a ship in international waters if there is good reason to think they are trying to break a blockade and the organizers & passengers made clear from the start the intent was to breach the blockade. The commandos boarded other ships in the flotilla and all were taken peacefully in this case the passengers wanted a fight.
.... like "Surely there were many other options available before hitting them in the head " .....while they were throwing us overboard.... We, Nd I speak for more of us, will reply to Mark of Lewiston because at times he was making sense, which is not your case. Not enough said!
David point is real, the other one not, stop playing victims game!!!!
Is it not illegal?
it is completely legal. if the palestinians want to launch rockets at israel, which is an act of war, they must deal with the consequences, which is a blockade. stop whining every time your enemy does something to defend himself. its pathetic.
In order to achieve equivalent reasons for diplomatic remedy between Israel and Turkey; coordinated mutual apology will be the best for both sides of the fault. Otherwise, one sided apology will only enforce the hands of the perpetrator.
if it is so easy for obama to ignite dialog why dont he accept the dialogue deal Iran put forward. US+Israel are in need of a enemy.
This was never going to turn into a military conflict and I very much doubt that secret talks will achieve anything. Turkey is boycotting Israeli goods, Israeli supermarkets are boycotting Turkish goods. Israeli tourists are not going to Turkey, IAF planes cant overfly Turkey & I imagine that Turkish planes can't overfly Israel. Turkey will still be an ally to Syria and Iran. Months before this flotilla business Turkey had committed airforce support to Iran if Israel bombed its nuclear sites. If Obama wants to do something worthwile and presidential then get Turkey to end its illegal occupation of Cyprus and force Turkey to get out of Kurdistan .. in just 2 years Syria has killed nearly as many Kurds as Israel has killed palestinians in a decade and get them to apologize for the Armenian genocide .. before he became president Obama said he wanted Turkey to apoligize for the genocide, Congress passed a bill calling it genocide so far Obama has refused to ask Turkey to apologize for the genocide or even admit that it was genocide so far Obama has refused to define it as anything but an unfortunate incidient. If Obama really thinks he can solve this problem between Israel & Turkey through secret talks the man is an idiot who believes a little to much in his own abilities.
Where is Kurdistan, did this state exist before Israel begin to exist ??
it seems like you are so blind and stranger to this trouble, mister... of course, after all this is gone the relations between turks and israeli people will be stronger than before... :)
Every time I hear the wish that people would look else where, except at the problem under discussion, I hear my 4 year old son blaming the bad rabbit for the naughty thing I had just discovered. It is 4 year old thinking, and it amazes me how many " intelligent" people run for coer therere.
If Liebeman's objections were related to Israel's interests, he would have voiced his concerns in private.
If Liebeman's objections were related to Israel's interests, he would have voiced his concerns in private.
After the brutal attack of Israeli armed forces to Turkish civillans which have left 9 dead and one was 19 years with 4 bullets at head, there is no need to talk with Israel. It's just a waste of time. It's over for Turkish people..
Ayse, i agree with you that Israeli arm forces should not kill the 9 turkish Civilians which was a very bad mistake but not talking to each other, achives nothing.
So, there is no reason to talk. Achieving nothing is better than achieving something bad.
for the way Israel never apologises for defending their own citizens at all costs.
If Israel not apologies the costs will very high for Israel...but good to know, that it is OK for Israel.
OBAMA first prevent a War, now he try normalize the situation..
The quoted statement is by D. Ben-Simon, a Labor MK, and I believe it is correct. That Barak has no real concern for the usual socialist bread and butter concerns is well known, and this should have disqualified him from Labor leadership, except that such was done before (and is a cause and indicator of Labor's decline). But what about rightwing diplomacy and politics? Barak effectively supports settlements and refrains from removing even ILLEGAL (according to Israeli definitions) ones, even after being ordered by the Supreme Court to do so. Barak also granted the Ariel college a status of University. Now we hear that he object to talking with Turkey. Is it a question of "national honor"? This is a typical rightwing attitude, established by Jabotinsky. The unusual friendship with Turkey, a major Muslim state, and a strategic achievement conceived by and worked on since the days of David Ben-Gurion is simply given up. Really amazing for a labor leader.
I was reading a bit today about Quantum Physics and Photons and I'm thinking about how this applies to the way people react hysterically to some things in the news. Well the book discussed how you can take the lenses off of a pair of Polaroid glasses and demonstrate how the lenses work if you just use both of them simultaneously on one eye if you keep the other eye closed. So the Photons, it says, vibrate at different angles. If you keep the lenses straight, you can still see clearly through both of them. However, if one lense is rotated enough, the view becomes totally black. Used properly, the lenses allow photons at the same angles to pass through. But used perpendicular to each other, no photons are allowed through, therefore black. So logically, we have problems with different parties if they are using different lenses to view the same events, than we are. The problem then becomes how to correct the lense for the other side so they will view things the same way we do.
I don't believe one needs to go too deeply into geo-political or human processes to understand what happened with Turkey. Erdogan is an active leader with ideas. He was chosen by Time magazine as the 17th most influential leader in the world in 2009. Among his activities he was trying to mediate between Israel (under Olmert) and Syria, which the rise of Netanyahu put an end to. Erdogan is a devout Muslim, and I take it that he really cares about the Gaza people under Israeli "siege", which Erdogan wanted to help in lifting. Nothing to do with supporting Hamas. In the Flotilla incident, Turkey enabled the protesters, but the Israeli clumsy response left 9 of them dead. QUESTION: What would have been a decent Israeli reaction? ANSWER: 1. Apologize to Turkey, 2. Offer to pay some compensation to the families, and 3. Introduce some partial lifting of the siege on Gaza (which serves no known purpose other than collective punishment). Actually, Netanyahu himself did such things when Mossad agents were caught in Jordan trying to assassinate Meshaal. But with the flotilla, Israel's response was: 1. Saying no apology was deserved, 2. Blaming the passengers and calling the ship a "terror ship", and 3. Stating that the present policies will continue because Israel needs security. (Later Netanyahu changed his mind and lifted part of the "siege".) Don't be surprised of the resulting freeze in relations.
Logios, your naivety is astounding. "Erdogan is a devout Muslim, and I take it that he really cares about the Gaza people". Erdogan is a populist rabble-rouser, a cheap demagogue who could not care less about his Muslim brethren. If he did, he would throw his political weight to improve the lot of REALLY oppressed Muslims in Uzbekistan or Uyghurs in Chinese Xinjiang province - all the more they are Turkic peoples. When Karimov murdered 700 people during the demonstration in Andizhan - where was the roar of this lion? Huh? Do not hear you... No, as his rating fell below the watermark at home he staged the provocation and then raised the nationalistic stink to the high heaven. Now he's surfing these dirty waves rallying Turkish populace to unholy Gaza cause.
he is a supporter of hamas, hezbollah and all manner of extremists regimes. he does his best to undermine israel. he is openly supporting the end the siege movement. hhe will never acknowledge that the turkish mavi marmara was infiltrated by ihh terrorists. nor does it bother him one bit. nor does it bother him that the nazi flag with a swastika was raised on turkish soil by ihh supporters.
we can 'pressure' Israel to talk to the Turks but we won't 'pressure' Israel to withdraw from Palestinian lands.
The Manchurian President will do ANYTHING to harm Israel. You know it's bad when even the like of Barak didn't like what the US was trying to do. Next time it should be coordinated so that Lieberman walks in, the US-requested stooge leaves, and Lieberman explains that you will deal with Israel's choices, not the US manipulation.
or,at best,a weak and poor country,amenable to drastic change of direction.similar to the british mandate's role in preserving and safe-guarding the emergent israel,contrary to the propaganda you've been fed.to sum-israel is an anglo-american creation,and has only once been pressured(sinai 1956).israel has more than a carte blanche.the u.s. is its partner and shares its objectives or fantasies-all palestine(like you),minimum or no non-jews(ditto).no peace in north,thus no open borders(golan is yours)thus israel in exclusion and seclusion.because open borders and no belligerncy is perceived as dangerous in the long run,conducive to integration and assimilation and counter to separation is preservation
Doubt if any U.S. pressure facilitated this impromptu meeting as the Americans have nothing to pressure Turkey with. Unless it feared another dressing down from their AIPAC mouth piece in the guise of a senior diplomat called Philip H. Gordon. But even that would only emit a good hee haw. Anyway the meeting served the purpose of humiliating Lieberman and giving Turkey an opportunity to strongly reiterate its demand for an apology with regard to the flotilla affair.
where are the leftist people in israel?
The left constituency was shattered to pieces by the brutal 2nd Intifada and the suicide bombings that preceded it. Israeli public that supported the peace solution as we know it today (2 states, east Jerusalem, no right of return into Israel) - made up more than 60% of the Jewish public. Years of Palestinian terror and of course many mistakes made by Israeli leaders - mainly the unilateral withdrawals from south Lebanon and Gaza left the Israeli public short of trust towards the other sides real intention and a general apathy towards the Palestinians and their fate
bring together antagonists.pity it does not exercise this power on israel's other "fronts".patently it is happy with the situation in palestine,syria and lebanon.
Now everybody knows that Lieberman stood behind in all chaos with US and peace. He is the one international politicians shake their head all time...useless selection by Israelis.
Maybe they decide not to infor Lieberman because of they are underpaid.
at least respected unlike the diplomats in Turkey whom Turkish PM Recep Bey shuns calling or mocking them "MONSERLER". Actually this is the reason behind Erdogan's undiplomatic foreign policy. He does not respect his own well trained experienced diplomats.
by insulting our ambassador, applause :)
At least in Israel people are free to talk / write against him without being afraid of being sent to Silivri Prison. You must have read Gideon Levy who has also been in Turkish TV lately, Akiva Eldar, Amira Hass. They are free to wrote against Israeli government. Look at Emin Colasan. He was fired from Hurriyet and still jobless. Some other journalists are in Silivri prison like Deniz Yildirim and Ufuk Akkaya.
This arguement, as some other Theses among these lines can always be brought up by some paranoid people! Turks can say the same thing! During the 1st WW. Turkey fought for its survival against Great Britain, France, Greece, Russia and some Armenian factiions! Well,-what now? Is it because of this reason that we will never be able to trust these parties anymore? Are we going to remain stuck in the past or move on and live in the present? Lets look at the Facts: -Turkey was one of the first countries in the World to recognize the State of Israel & certainly one of the first majoritarily Muslim Countries to do so! -The Ottoman empire invited jews from Spain during the inquisition,-where they were persecuted! -Turkey has had a long and close relationship with the state of Israel diplomatically, politically and militarily! Are these the actions and the attitude of an Enemy? But: If Israel expects a friend to say "Bless you and Amen" to all they do, then some have a very restricted and onesided view of a freindship! Turkey will always be a freind to Israel and will, regardless of what is happening today, never allow Jewish people to be persecuted for their faith again! Remaining silent to the plight of the palestinians is and can however not be an option for people that feel sympathy with anyone who is oppressed!
Thank you for your kind words. I too am very troubled by the recent rift between our countries and hope we can make a mends very soon. We in Israel appreciate your support. I too feel for the plight of the Palestinians as many Israeli's do. But Israel can not allow uninspected items to enter Hamas ruled Gaza. You must understand this. Would you allow uninspected cargo be sent directly to Kurdish factions who want to hurt turkish citizends? Send aid theough the various channels rpovided where inspections can be made. IS this so crazy?!
however, W/ Erdogen he purposefully made it an 'inccident' when he first publicly insulted ISrael via Peres. He also funded and helped sneak mercenaries onto the ship that was filmed as the "Turks" brutally beat the ISraeli troops. You're a Turk you talk to your 'leader." He's lost another fight in the PR war and no one trusts him as he's allied w/ those who wish to destroy Israel. Turkey was outstanding when she separated herself from the radical clergy. Now, Turkey is condemned by her back sliding into the violent 7th century mentality. watch her decline as this was more than foolish, it's dangerous. Erdogen and his allies hope to start WW111. Are you turks in agreement w/ that? is it a war w/ Israel that you want?
To Concerned Israeli: The ships had been inspected at every port, they could also have been inspected at sea and then allowed into Gaza. The Israeli government will use any excuse to commit crimes against humanity against the population of Gaza. Hamas already gets weapons and cement in through the tunnels as they have admitted, they don't need the ships for this.
What's crazy is that ISrael supports a recognized terrorist organization, the PKK, which is responsible for repeated attacks on Turkish soldiers and citizens, then calls a Turkish humanitarian organization like the IHH terrorists, and an aid ship a 'hate boat'.
The friendship between Israel and Turkey was never one sided. I don't know how old you are but I am 60. I remember the 1970ies after the Cyprus invasion of Turkey The US embargo crippling the Turkish economy. Then sharing PM minister position with Ecevit, Erbakan was begging his Arab friends for a drop of oil and kicked out of Khaddafis tent in Tripoli. It is thanks to Israel that this embargo was removed. It is thanks to Israel's efforts that the Armenian genocide bill is blocked every year. When USA, Germany refused to modernize Turkish Tanks and aircraft Israel did. To this very day there are Turkish military staff being trained in Israel. Iyi gunler dostum.
Israel has never been the real or sincere friend or ally for Turkey. Even if the USA gives up recognizing the so called genocide, Turkey will go deeper with the Muslim states, bot the Islamic ones. What about the Jews fleeing from Madrid or Berlin and sheltering to Turkey. We did enough for Israelis or Jews. However, we share nothing with Israel except for the blue sku. Iyı gunler dostum... Do you what does that mean .....???
I agree with you David and I remember the 1970ies, It is true that the friendship between Israel and Turkey was newer one sided, especially when Turkey needed real friends in 1970ies. Yes, Israel did all the good things you had mentioned and I am sure many Turks appreciates this. In the same time according to my knowledge, Turks are one nation in the Middle East and Europe who newer had any Jewish blood on their hands and they have always being friendly and protective to the persecuted Jewish people of Europe all through the History (Since the inqusitions) I am sure some Israelies will also appreciate these facts also. What ever happened in the Mavi Marmara unfortunately has happened and as a result , Israel got Turkish blood on their hands. One could argue for ever "who was wright? who was wrong?) newer mind all that ! I am sure we both agree that it would be on the best interest of the both countries to make up with each other. When we used to fight between friends as kids there was one rule to make up friends again, which was: who draw the first blood should apoligise to the other one and shake his hand without considering who was wright? who was wrong? in a specific insident. Appoligy and giving your hand out should not be a very hard thing to do, between friends.
Unfortunately I have to correct you in one matter. Turks do have Jewish blood in their hand and there were never apology for them. In 1972 Israeli Ambassador to Turkey Efraim Elrom was kidnapped and killed. My friend's son in law dentist Yasef Yahya was killed in his office in Istanbul. Industrialist Uzeyir Garih was killed In Istanbul. The Neve Sahalom Synagogue attack was done by Turkish members of the Al Kaida. I wil also remond you of 1936 Kirklareli incidents when Jews were brutally attacked, the 1941Varlik Vergisi and 20 draft military service only to Jews, 1955 September 6-7 incidents when Jews as well as other none Muslims (I guess nowadays I am suppoesed to say divers belief groups) were attacked in Istanbul and Izmir. We Jews know the strengths and weaknesses of Israel and we are free to raise these issues as you read in This Haaretz site. Brave writers like Amira Hass, Gieon Levy, Akiva Eldar write about these things and they continue to live free unlike in Turkey, journalist who criticize the AKP government at bast get fined or sent to Silivri prison with no charges against them and stay there indefinitely. This is why I thought it would be a good idea to remind you that either still in Turkey the dark side if the history is not being tough or you must have forgotten. My family was a victim of the Varlik Vergisi and lost a lot of property including a big business building at bankalar caddesi in Istanbul. Some of my relatives lost their health at Askale labor camp. I never asked for an apology and I will never get back the properties lost. I just wanted to remind these to you in a friendly way. Saglicakla kal dostum.
was where the martyr wannabees attacked the boarding Israeli commnados
You really should come back to reality. It was an armed assault in the dead of night. The IDF had the firearms.
Well, armies that oversees blockades are generally armed..And those that were on board the ships were well aware of what the dangers were, and that they were heading to penetrate a blockade of a country that is currently at war...The thing that is not the Mythy was that the ones attacking IDF soldiers were Jihadists who were gathered there to fight...I recommend you to read the diary of the 19 year old boy who died, and also watch the latest video of IHH leader..
A navy can declare a blockade zone in int'l waters, true, but having made that declaration that navy is not entitled to then move that blockade zone unannounced. It is indisputable that Israel declared its blockade zone *HERE*, and then "enforced" that blockade over *THERE*. That is a violation of the Sanremo Manual, precisely because that amounts to an unannounced change in a previously-declared blockade zone i.e. that is a blatant violation of section 101 of the manual.
No weapons in the ship. And that ship could be stopped with a bigger boat just stopping in front of it. That would all stop the problem at that time. Even Israel could attack to the ship in inland waters. So why are you blind? Why did you kill your Turkish friends who gave you homes in 1492 by opening lands to 50.000 jews that were thrown out from Spain.
Re dead of night: Prior to the first commando dropping: * Helicopters about * Other 5 ships intercepted * Decks full of IHH terorists * Decks locked down by IHH terrorists preventing peace activists in 'their' area * Clips showing martyr intentions. * Captain of ship ordering the disposal of 'some' weaponary made by IHH If the Commandos where there to aggresively take over the ship, they would not have paintguns, stun guns and side- arms but have sub-machine guns and high explosive Grenades amongst other things. I guess as the Israel boats came alongside the Ship, the IHH where throwing flowers and rice in a ritual peace dance move to welcome these commandos on board. The reality was chains, and clubs at the ready. The Israeli Intelligence got it wrong in how to plan to take on the specific group of IHH who hijacked the peace activists intentions. It is Turkey who needs to apologise to Israel for allowing the IHH on board.
Could you quote the Israeli gazetted announcement that you claim.
Had they known that, AFTER ALL THE WARNINGS GIVEN TO THE FLOTILLAS, they will be attacked with deadly force, as they actually were, in full view of your eyes, without immediately using their firearms? (had they had them in their hands). Wouldn't you, if attacked like that? Would you really let yourself thrown out from the ship, after getting beaten, without using your firearm? Well, they did NOT have firearms in their hands.
and I wonder your opinion re: the sinking of the navy vessel by N. Korea? Or, are you paid to slam Israel only?
our soldiers only had paintball guns and sidearems... we came aboard unarmed and where ambused by thugs. the rachel corrie which had PEACEFUL protestors all sat on deck quietly. A bigot like you must be happy that israeli jews where beaten stabbed and thrown down stairs.
To S : Where are THOSE videos. We know Israel is hiding the evidence.
Check the MFA website Peter. There is a map!
A naval blockade without a clearly defined blockade zone violates Section 94 of the Sanremo Manual, PETER SM. Nonetheless, your statement is untrue, because Israel did officially declare the blockade zone to be 20 miles off the Gaza coast, and the flotilla was intercepted well outside that declared zone.
There is a video there that clearly shows one of your "paintball and sidearm" soldiers working a pump-action shotgun.
Peter, Before clearing all legal obstacles you should ask yourself: If things are so obvious, why did Israel establish a commission of inquiry to check on the LEGALITY of the raid? (Legality is the only topic, and the commission is made up entirely of legal experts.) But there are legal questions to clarify: 1. Was the blockade itself legal? Was it necessitated because of some "armed conflict" going on? Where? 2. If no armed conflict, then the blockade could not extend beyond the territorial waters. 3. Was the reaction of the passengers expected? In such a case perhaps other means of controlling the ship were called for. You can probably come up with a few more questions.
I have mentioned before in a reply to another post that Israel; also helped Turkey in many issues from lifting the US embargo to the capture of Ocalan. Do they still teach Omer Seyfettin's books in Turkish literature classes? When I rad comments like yours I am coming to the point of doing the act in his famous story DIYET.
David Bey, are you of Turkish Jew origin? We still read Ömer Seyrettin, Kaşağı, Beyaz Lale, Aliço, etc. at school.
And now you understand that if you keep on reminding all the good things Turks have done in the past to Jews I am getting to cut my arm and give it to you figuratively in the form of reminding you all the good thins that Jews and the state of Israel did for Turkey. But one little difference. Israel did not abandon Turkey when she had no benefits coming from Turkey. Continued to help. Turkey on the other hand today finds that Arab and Iranian friendship may be more beneficial (I doubt it but...) and cut its friendship with Israel at her hardest time. You know the Turkish saying KARA GUN DOSTU (dark days friend) Well my friend now we know that Turkey is not one. It seems to be that Turkey is only a MENFAAT DOSTU (a friend only for benefits)
David, another Turkish saying "Besle Kargayi Oysun gozunu" Translation: look after the crow, will pook your eye out as to show his appreciation. david don't pook our eyes, remember the old good days.
This meeting may really be planned by obama. Both sides claimed that the other side asked for the meeting. (probably they were agree on this) Turkish side allegedly did not inform some ministers in the cabinet either. (turkish government is not a coalition, this move is a gesture to Israeli side to give an excuse for preventing Lieberman's fury.) On the other hand, Ben Eliezer is an antidote for lieberman. He treats like a real stateman. since the first days of the crisis he has been defending the commercial ties and calling for dialog. so he protects strategic and economic interests of his country.
What exactly should Israel be apologizing for??? It seems to me that any rational person would think that the Turkish govt might apologize for not stopping the IHH srom boarding the flotilla and then using this incident to setup Israel and make Erdogan look good in front of the Arab world.
It's amazing how some people are oblivious to crime. If you murder a hooker, you're still a murderer.
expect consequences.Self defence is NOT murder.Nobody got killed on the other ships,ever wondered why?? What did the martyrdom seeking heroes attacking 4:1 a commando rapelling and beating him with iron bars and knives expect? How did the Israeli commados get blood pouring everywhere? Just happen to fall over the side of the ship?? Whats this got to do with sex workers?
And if anyone - and I mean ANYONE - sends armed men to force their way onto a ship while it is in int'l waters then the crew of the ship that is being assaulted have the right to "self-defence", and the armed soldiers who are assaulting it do not. That was definitively settled after the hijacking of the Achille Lauro and the killing of Leon Klinghoffer.
The illegality of assaulting a vessel in int'l waters is defined in the "Rome Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation" which was enacted after the Achille Lauro episode. It clearly says that when armed men are storming a ship in int'l waters that the men storming that ship have NO RIGHT to claim "self-defence" if the ships crew or passengers resist that assault.
Israel took the ships into its port from Int. Waters, this gave Israel more legal control over ships and people on board, by then using its custom laws. Is it legal for the Somali pirates to do this in Int. Waters if they declare a blockade zone of their coast?
Untrue, a suspected pirate ship may be boarded in international waters. In fact it took place this past year.
Please name the exact statute that prevented Israel from boarding the ships ?
do you understand that the IHH is an extremist and violent organization that had planned to attack the Israeli naval personnel before they boarded? Has that occurred to you?
Trukish government is coward, they said IHH not to go. But, IHH is not coward and they refused the government's offer and they resisted in the ship to save 1.5 million people in Gaza from the siege. After all things happened, the government helped IHH.
What exactly should Israel be apologizing for??? It seems to me that any rational person would think that the Turkish govt might apologize for not stopping the IHH srom boarding the flotilla and then using this incident to setup Israel and make Erdogan look good in front of the Arab world.
Israel should apologize for the unlawful boarding of a vessel in international waters. Israel should apologize for its unlawful use of disproportionate force. Israel should apologize for the killing of nine Turkish citizens.
That is EXACTLY Israel should do. Good job.
Name the statute please that states Israel could not board that vessel. In terms of force; you havent seen the video or you would realize the Israeli naval personnel were attacked first. Many of those "civilians" were in the midst of attacking the Israeli naval personnel when they were killed.
Is he mad enough to walk. I'd hope so. Will he take his marbles home too? Is he going to break relations with the USA? Does he have that power? Does he want eternal conflict with Turkey that much?
ehud barak was also opposed to the meeting. barak has access to intelligence reports. he knows that erdogan is not amenable. obama should have tried to stop the flotilla before it left turkey. however, the pattern of behaviour is clear. he only talked to mcchrystal twice before firing him. he let the oil spill continue without accepting help. there will be no war with turkey. however, the united states is unraveling.
Far-right nationalist demagogue gets cut out of the policy process, throws toys from pram.
Mr. Obama will either bring the 3rd in Israel or in own White House.
the nightclub bouncer on his way out.of the coalition.
is angry at Netanyahu, he is not mad enough to leave the coalition. I suppose tomorrow we will be told that the nightclub bouncer was informed but the arrangements for the meeting was made that fast that he hadn't read the memo from the Prime Minister's office until after the event.
I don't think there is any doubt that he was deliberately ignored. I have to say Chris that I think there is very little we will ever agree on but with regards to Lieberman leaving his post of FM and indeed his presence in the coalition we have might have some common ground.
so concerned about this foreign minister ....r u concerned about any other foreign ministers on planet earth or just jewish ones ?
yes , i am ! german FM is a total failure - still no danger for world peace - but an absolutly reason to be concerned. and im not the once
Hear me oh Israel: The Western world is both blind and stupid and much too engrossed in its own web of Political Correctness, application. All this while Israel’s neighbours Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and now Turnkey as well, gather is secrecy. There’s no doubt that they have in fact signed a secret pact to simultaneously attack Israel from as many sides as possible. Western Europe is run by short sighted politicians who much like Chamberlain in 1939 trusted Hitler. We all know the outcome of that. We in England are going through the same scenario. The threat to our own British security may well be beyond repair for we now are in the tranquil part of things before the big storm hits and spreads its devastation. America is no different. Those of us who see and read between the lines are advising you, Oh Israel to remain vigilant and not to lose focus of those who are at your doorsteps, for I can assure you that they don’t come with a friendly offering.
Your right on the money.
Wake up! We, the non-Jew residents of the planet, are not occupied 24 hrs, preparing plans to destroy Israel. You are not occupying %0.0001 of our intellectual affairs. Stop stressing and harming yourself and the other people. You are a small nice country. Try to be happy. Don't bully with th rest of the world. Everybody is tired of your conspiracy theories.
Most people in the world are like a mob following a 'leader' One just has to open his eyes to see & read the pages of history to agree with the above conclusion. Few people take the time to think & try to understand the underlying forces at play. It is easier to simply 'follow the leader'. Liberman is one of the few people in this vast government that takes time to analyze a complicated,tricky & difficult situation. So what if he's alone in thinking in a certain way ? The masses only follow. They don't think. Even here in these talkbacks,one can clearly see all those same figuers bringing out their drums in the open & making a caophony of noises !
That was funny. Keep smokin crack
its just everybody! or do u know anybody says blockade is legal ? sayin massaker (on 9 turks 0r 1400pals) ware legal? sayin occupying is legal ? and israel hit the friends it has
Can Turkey attack Israel with weapons bought from USA and Israel? Very bad idea! The government will punish Israel by isolation.
faster than Lieberman bounced drunks out of Moldovan nightclubs.
Or just upset that Israel didn't make the same mistake we did voting for Obama and his merry band of morons and ISrael bashers?
I think Lieberman should move out of palestine, back into israel, and then shut his mouth forever. He is a disgrace to Jews everywhere.
Please let there be a coalition crisis so we can get rid of thei government and get something normal. A government whos agenda will top: 2 peoples- 2 states, Gilad Shalit home, peace n the Middle East with a better life for all. The settlements expansions , house demolitions, should not be on that agenda at all and please Lieberman go home, the normal Israelies do not want you in any government.
Short, clear and to the point! Well said "Mother"
there is no way another coalition in Israel will cooperate with a peace plan. The majority of israelian citizins (especially the ultra-orthodox) will not accept this, since they don't want to stop the settlements, don't want to give up East Jerusalem and don't want a 2-state solution.
What is it they want? Ueber-Zionists that get cheap labor?
its this what lets me hope.... thx mother
You see Amother reaction of Neo-Nazi Axel? He is pleased. Did you want it? Hah! 15% of voting citizens raised their hand for Yisrael Beiteinu. Do you want all of them go home? Do you really want anarchy in residential construction? No permits, no sanitation? structuraly