'Israel's part in UN flotilla probe eliminates need for other inquires'

And the Maggies of the world can go and look for trouble elsewhere.....

Religions are the cause of ills: All the "Sacred Texts" were written by people with agendas and an ax to grind. They can be interpreted to justify any action, anywhere ,anytime. Clerics and wannabes, and their adherents and followers must be understood to be criminally insane before any progress in Human Affairs occurs Who said that the Taliban and Mullahs are restricted to Islam? They are embedded in all religions and, eventually, will take control, be it Islam, Judaism or Christianity.

Cipora, please come help get rid of the moth in my apartment that has been terrorizing me. And I see now that you believe that not just the U.N. is biased but all of "international law." You really have some mental, umm, "challenges." BTW, the spelling is "abysmal"

..... to remove the present antagonism between Turkey and Israel. Showing that one side is guilty, and the other not , is NOT what is intended. At least that is what transpires for the time being. Shavua tov.

Come on "Mark from Georgia" ...you know this kind of policy that can make a scapegoat (6th ship) to get a legitimacy to your behavoir...Come on, you know it...

people on the left also loathed the bush administration and did not trust it to tell the truth. it's the same here. i'm predisposed to trust B'Tselem, so how am I anti-semitic? this immediate resort to calling people anti-semitic is obnoxious not because it hurts, but because it's so stupid and self-serving

Kuzeyli, were talking about this incident, NOT, other behavior. Sorry Josh, I call them as I see them. I'm not familiar with B'tselem stand on the issue, but I saw all the video's, seems pretty clear cut to me who started it. If I'm wrong show me proof.

at least in my opinion. This UN probe is toothless and that is why Netanyahu doesn't care. This probe doesn't have sufficient subpoena power to question the activists, IDF soldiers, or IDF commanders. I also assume it doesn't have the power to make the Israeli government hand over all of the uncensored and unedited footage and recordings they confiscated from the activists nor all of the uncensored footage and recordings the IDF has in its possession. These pictures, footage, and recordings would give the key context necessary to find out what precisely happened. Shouldn't everyone want such a probe?

The confiscated videos have not been released. All we have is the very few pieces smuggled by the activists, and a 2-minute clip released by the IDF.

other people might start the sequence of events at a different point in time. And here is an example: Turkey may prefer to start viewing the flotilla situation from Cast Lead. They would see a remarkable Israeli brutality, involving possible crimes against humanity (according to Goldstone who spells them out). The Turkish government, run by MODERATE Islamists, becomes outraged and allows an Islamic HUMANITARIAN organization to try and break the still going closure of Gaza which has reduced Gazans to destitution. Knowing that they are dealing with CIVILIANS, the IDF nevertheless uses strong-arm technique when more benign options are available (like disabling the motors), and this end up with 9 Turks being dead. Incidentally, Israelis know that the tactic was a mistake, and this may still be the point which Israel will be chided for by the UN. Better leave yourself some room to wiggle out of your assertions or you will end up being sorry like many paranoids who objected to a UN inquiry.

other people might start the sequence of events at a different point in time. And here is an example: Turkey may prefer to start viewing the flotilla situation from Cast Lead. They would see a remarkable Israeli brutality, involving possible crimes against humanity (according to Goldstone who spells them out). The Turkish government, run by MODERATE Islamists, becomes outraged and allows an Islamic HUMANITARIAN organization to try and break the still going closure of Gaza which has reduced Gazans to destitution. Knowing that they are dealing with CIVILIANS, the IDF nevertheless uses strong-arm technique when more benign options are available (like disabling the motors), and this end up with 9 Turks being dead. Incidentally, Israelis know that the tactic was a mistake, and this may still be the point which Israel will be chided for by the UN. Better leave yourself some room to wiggle out of your assertions or you will end up being sorry like many paranoids who objected to a UN inquiry.

Second, his report has been proven completely bias. Let me help. There TWO sides to every story. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/Goldstone1.html Above is the response to Goldstone report.

Who is Goldstein??? Do you mean Goldstone?? The Jewish Anti Israeli South African judge that went into the probe with a clear bias against Israel?? He conducted a one sided investigation without questioning Israeli soldiers and Officers?? Why would Israel co-operate when the end result is always the same in the ANTI ISRAEL General Assembly???

He was not given permission to question the IDF, similar to this 'probe' into the flotilla massacre.

Yes, Goldstone. Your opinion about him is just that - your opinion with no facts supporting it. The fact is IDF pretty much agreed with several heavy hitters in that report that SIrael initially said could never be true. So the report was not anti-semitic. it is an easy and empty slogan.

You call Goldstone "The jewish Anti Israeli Sauth African. If he was not Jewish you would call the same man " Anti-Semite Sauth .African.. This explains your mentality and unsolvable problem.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/Goldstone1.html Hope you don't mind two sides to the story. Proof that Goldstone was all wet.

While NO politician is squeaky-clean, he's managed to bring Columbia out from under the dark and dismal cloud which once held it in the grip of fear. He saw to the disbanding of the paramilitaries, by the way, and his consistently high approval rating is a testament to his achievements in Columbia.

the un is largely populated by human rights abusers, including western powers. so how naive can you be?

Uribe was long suspected of narco connections. By the US Gov. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB131/index.htm Bribery: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2948031320080429 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/16/AR2009051602301.html The guy is a mobster. He is popular you say? So was Al Capone and then again so was Hitler and of course so is Chavez, but that matters not one jot.

i'll admit to being naive if you admit to being a credulous apologist for all things Israel? "I never criticise Israel on here" CJK various times on talk back...

1° International inquiry In progress 2° Apologies After inquiry completed 3° Indemnities After inquiry completed 4° Opening of Gaza borders In progress

When its a kangaroo court, its absurd to participate. Rak Yisrael Ayn Zachoot Lagan. Where is the inquiry for Dafur, Chechniya, Tibet? Key madam Hayehudi

Israel is agreeing to a UN investigation. How long before you find the reason why the investigation is only legitimate if it ends up criticizing Israel?

Hmmmm, let's see. Plenty of video is freely available on YouTube and all of it shows IHH's thugs attacking the Israeli soldiers as they decended onto the deck. It was all broadcast in real time so there's no mystery as to what happened. You're obvious glee at israeli soldiers "getting beaten and left crying like children" is beyond rediculous. Either boarded the ship and opened fire indiscrimenantly on "peaceful peace activists" or they were beaten and left crying like babies. Now I know it's tough when your joy at seeing Israelis attacked contradicts your desire to demanize Israel by calling these thugs "peace activists" but even you should recognize the conundrum you've put yourself in. But the last bit of your post is the most absurd... you seem to be saying that first the Turks beat the Israelis "till they cried like children" then the Turks were generous and out of the goodness of their hearts allowed the Israelis to live but those satanic Israelis went and killed the IHH thugs anyway???? Do you really beleive the garbage you're spewing? Here's a more realistic scenario: Israeli soldieres decend expecting merely passive resistance (as was the case on all of the other ships in the flotilla and all previous and subsequent flotillas). In fact, Israel was so worried about the PR consequences of armed troops injuring "peace activists" that the soldiers were armed with paint guns (whihc Israel uses as a non-lethal means of dispercing rioters). To their surpirse, the Israeli troops are immediately attacked by an overwhelming number of IHH thugs wearing gas masks and ceramic bullet proof vests and at the least armed with knives, clubs and axes (yes we've all seen the pictures before and during the raid and we've seen the pictures of our soldiers being stabbed). The soldiers, they are after all highly trained, elite naval commondos, quickly realize what's going on, start fighting back and yes unfortantely in 9 cases actually kill the people who are trying to kill/kidnap them. Eventually, the commandos land sufficient forces on the ship to defeat the mob trying to kill them and take control of the ship. The Israeli navy then provides medical treatment to all of the thugs who attacked them. Seems a bit more realistic than your rantings.

Gotta raise an eyebrow at your use of the name "Sephardi". I assume you're trying to convey that you're a Jew of middle eastern or Sephardic origin. Why would you think that lends any legitimacy or authority to your rantings? From Neturai Karta's participation in Ahmedijad's festivals of holocaust denial and Jew hatred to Meir Vilna and Ilan Papo's support for the destruction of Israel, there've always been a few misguided Jews who side with those who would exterminate the Jews of Israel if given half a chance, you're nothing new nor special. The bottom line is that you're all marginal to the Jewish people the overwhelming majority of whom utterly reject your hatred of Israel and are revolted by your joy at the attempts to kill our soldiers.

Where do you get the idea that these were peaceful activists? if they were really peaceful they would not have died. As for international waters that does not matter. Israel is at war with Hamas. The naval blockade is part of a war and anyone even in international waters that tries to break a naval blockade is fair game. By the way, any other country would probably have blown the boat out of the water for trying to braek a legal naval blockade. Also, everyone is against us because of the control muslims have on many countries. If countries would not be threatened for speaking the truth there would be a different tune sung around the world.

What about the videos of the IDF soldiers attacked by clubs and knivrs of the "peaceful activists". And what's the status of that UN inquiry of the Hariri assasination by the way?

You don't think it is odd that no Israeli soldiers were killed? The activists clearly had every opportunity to kill them if they'd wanted; the pictures from the scene make that clear. Instead, nine Turkish activists were killed; no Israelis.

doesn't seem like a humanitairan life-saving measure. But hey, since you only care about numbers and not people, so what?

I care about the dead of either side. And there weren't any dead Israelis, only Turks and a Turkish-American. Remember that if you can.

This not the same world, it used to be, not any more. We are here to bring peace to the region and to ensure justice!

We want ISrarel to be disarmed first and to roll over to hamas, Hizbullah, Turkish extremists, and others. Thats not justice you want, you want Just-us. Your type of pieace is destructive as it bolsters extremists, I would have uyou live for a few months in SIrael perhaps near where rockets fall and then come talk to us about justice.

Israel and The u.s.? NOT turkey, it may not be around as you know it?

Do you have any idea what kind of war is ongoing for 30 years in south-east Anatolia with the PKK? And that this war has cost 40.000 lives and hundred billions of TL? So, stop crying.

Because the hour-long footage the activists uploaded to Youtube clearly shows them preparing to attack the Israeli troops and planning to throw them overboard, hours before the Israelis were even in sight.

that the activists did not kill the Israeli soldiers when they clearly had the chance to and in fact nine Turkish activists were killed by the Israeli soldiers? No, I didn't think you would, somehow....

Several soldiers were stabbed some seriously, the fact they did not die makes you sad I am sure. Prompt medical attention saved them. The nine dead came at the soldiers with firebombs, stun grenades, metal rods, heavy axe handles, a shotgun and a speargun. All which could have killed. They got the fight they weanted, they got the martyrs they wanted. Now lets see them explain to teh Un how and why they did what they did. lets interview every peace activist on board. Lets also watch teh raw video footage which clearly shows teh extremists agitating for a fight. Well they got it, just did not turn out the way they wanted it to

How do you know only those who attacked were the ones killed? Were you there? I didn't realize there was footage capturing all of their deaths? Also, if they wanted a fight why give it to them? These few activists did not pose a threat to Israel's national security with knives and clubs. Also, if the IDF saw they were brandishing knives why deploy the soldiers in such a way that would put them in immediate danger? The only way to get to the bottom of this for Israel to release all the unedited IDF footage and recordings that provide context for this event (the before, during, and after) as well as all of the footage and recordings they confiscated from the activists. Witnesses, IDF soldiers, and IDF commanders should all be questioned. Of course, we won't get any of this yet you are so quick to take a position. Also, why board in international waters when the legality of Israel's blockade is murky to say the least.

And who provided it? A Turkish doctor, wasn't it? I know, that proves the bad intentions of the Turks...

Were you on Mavi Marmara? How come you know so much about it?

The fact that Turkey is improving the long-ignored relations with Russia and other its Eastern neighbours does not mean that it is becoming fundamentalist. It is a pragmatic approach and actually makes a lot of sense. For instance; the number of tourists from ME countries has increased dramatically this year. Other than that; EU accession reforms remains to be the #1 foreign policy objective of Turkey. Look for Gabi Ashkenazi's statement the other week; even the military coordination with Israel is still intact. I can confidently tell you that the great majority in my country certainly does not want an Islamic state. I know it's hard to see from the news you get in your papers; but the same goes for our government as well.

The predictable consequences of what IDF did would be loss of life. The fact that some people were ready to die for their cause alone does not mean much. All activists aboard the ship (including those from 36 other countries) confirm that IDF started firing from the boats and from the helicopters before they came down. Autopsy reports confirm that people were either shot from above, or in the head from close range. If Israel's intention was only to stop the boats, they could have easily done so.

The footage clearly shows the soldiers being attacked as they board the boats so think, think, think, gotta come up with some lame excuse to blame Israel......GOT IT, they were shooting BEFORE THE EVEN BOARDED. So how come there was no shooting before Israel boarded any of the OTHER ships in the convey?? or any of the prior or subsequent attempts to send ships to Gaza.....HMMMM, you don't have any response to that??? Yes Israel was shooting from above, while sending commandos down with PAINTBALL GUNS. Gee that's real logical. Not to mention the fact that Had Israel opened fire before boarding at minimum you'd have seen the IHH gang dispercing to get away from the fire rather than converging on the site where the soldiers were landing. As to the autopsies, I'd be very interesting in checking whether they really say what you think they do and even IF they do, gotta get an independent autopsy not one sponsored by Erdogen's govrenment since they are clearly a party to this fiasco, no way you can say that they're objective. One fact that's not in dispute, the Israeli soldiers were outnumbered and were attacked with knives, clubs and axes immediately upon their landing. The were in immediate risk of being killed or taken captive, in those circumstances they were absolutely justified in using their weapons to defend themselves. You folks better prepare yourselves for the possibility that Turkey and Erdogan may come out of this worse than Israel and Bibi.

As a secular Turk with no sympathy to current government, has absolute loyalty to Republic of Turkey, I want to know what really has happened. Granted, IHH is giving an impression of a dubious organization with questionable ties, but attacking a civillian ship and killing nine people, in the middle of international waters seems to fit a text book definition of piracy-if not a war crime. I hope both Turkish and Israeli governments grant a full of access for this international commission and hopefully we will know what has happened, how has happened and why it has happened.

In contrary, Bibi was bluffing the whole time. He now sees that he has no other way out. Erdogan never bluffs. He brought the Turkish Armed Forces generals to their knees in a quit short time (8 years) after he came to power. Nobody in Turkey would ever imagine that any of the generals would be brought in front of the court. The change in Democracy in Turkey has been vaste in the last decade. If Israel has to fear someone than it is definitely Erdogan, not Ahmadinejad or any other leader, even not Obama. Israel definetely has to change its attitude towards its neighbours, otherwise it will be in trouble with Turkey. Erdogan has a great support in Turkey and he will be ruling for at least another 4 years. Then he will become the president for at least 5 years. Another hard decade for Israel. Sorry guys.

israel has never yet one a legal battle. the entire purpose of these law wars is to continue warfare by other means. the "moderate" muslims have learned not to wage war directly, but rather through misuse of law, boycotts, propaganda, the universities, and now j-street. it is highly unlikely that israel will be allowed to win in this case. the demand for the "probe," supported by the entire west, including the us, is already a loss. by the way, the burden of proof is on those claiming murder. shavua tov, cipora

Pulling tail of a Tiger, also goes for Israel. I agree time will show!

There is a Turkish saying which goes "Turk doesn't have a friend but another Turk". It kind of became a self-fulfilling prophecy in the long run. Likewise; an antisemit used to be someone who hated Jews, but it has now became a label for someone a Jewish person hates. If you continue to treat every criticism directed towards your government's policies as a sign of antisemitism, you will be the ones to lose in the long run. And on't forget that UN is the very reason Israel could finally be founded.

Referencing a saying that has to do with battles, you accept that Mavi Marmara was a battle ship disguised by IHH, then you say flotilla incident was no war..Have fun with your contradictions !!!

As you said in may battlefields Turkey came as the winner but at the negotiation table lost.Cyprus is one of these. But Turkey did win at Lausanne as you may remember. At that time the legal adviser to the Turkish delegation was a Jewish lawyer (My mother's uncle) a famous law professor who paid his travel expenses from his own pocket and was also PM Saracoglu's teacher. He was rewarded by being sent to Askale and his property confiscated from him in 1941. About the flotilla probe: President Obama who is a Harvard trained lawyer had told PM Erdogan not to pursue a UN investigation. He knows what he is talking about and yes Turkey might end up loosing more then Israel in that. In Turkish media Semih Idiz and Ozdemir Ince wrote on this subject (Ozdemir ince archive in Hurriyet - Isin Asli Ve Astari) I know for a fact that many Turkish Diplomats also are not very happy about this but as you know PM erdogan does not listen to them.

bravo to your mother's uncle and God bless his soul. Obviously he appreciated the fact that one does not bite the hand feeds him. What happened to you David?

Just to let you know, Turks and Arabs are two very different nationalities. If you read a little bit of history you can discover the difference yourself , or just as Winston Churchill, he learned at Gallipoli.

i still dont understand as a turkish person. when i seach who are semitic people they say arabs,jews etc. also arabs have population in your area how can u deal with that?

Brazen, you sound very bitter. Don't you think it's best to get it all out in the open, even though there will be no winner? BTW - Turks are not Arabs, they're Turks...

and I lump the turks and the arabs as the same, I need no lessons from you thank you. Its time the jewish people FIGHT back against ignorance.

learn the speak arabi. masalami

the arabs think if they lie long enough then there lies would become truth. I LOVE my G-d and my G-d introduced himself to the world through the hebrew people, and the disrespect sickens me, as that moque with the blue roof SITTING ON TOP OF A JEWISH TEMPLE. So yes I am BITTER wanna help?

I bet they will find grounds to pin the entire event on Israel.

"I bet they will find grounds to pin the entire event on Israel." And I am certain that you'll win that bet!

Iara Lee a Korean-Brazilian film maker was able to get memory cards out and show the footage at the UN in NYC

So first the Israel bashers were demanding an international inquiry assuming that Israel would never agree. Now that Israel has had the audicity of agreeing to an inquiry your now whining about it. Of course if the panel comes back and critizes Israel that'll of course be fine with you but if, god forbid, it actually finds that Israel acted within the norms of International law your already setting up your fallback position. Seems rather pathetic to me.

There were hundreds aboard the ship, hundreds messed up the crime scene, this is not CSI Miami. The real evidence is, who were the activists and their past history.? Israel will have enough evidence, otherwise they would not participate. Stay tuned.

Original Footage - especially that of the ship's upper deck security camera should be most revealing and I suspect will vindicate Israel's actions.

it took so long? It would have been so much better to agree immediately. Then the decision would be trustful, but now...

I hope so. I now many Turks who follow Ataturk's path of modernity , science and democracy are not enemy of Israel. What I am not sure is what is the percentage of those compared to ultra religious plus the ultra nationalists. I guess we will find out on September 13 the day after the referendum for the new constitution.

Hi, I agree with much of what you wrote. I've been to Turkey and found the people to be friendly and pragmatic. My sense is that Erdogan an the AKP launched Turkey's anti-Israel policy in part due to its Islamist ideology but more importantly they felt that they could leverage Israel as a "wedge issue" to weaken the secular opposition and the Army. The unfortunate Mavi Marmara shows just how dangerous Erdogan's policy is, he's literally playing with fire. Israel definately could have handled the preperations for boarding the ship better, but I've no doubt that once the soldiers were on the ship they were attacked by fanatical IHH terrorists. Personally I beleive their goal was to kidnap or kill an Israeli soldier and they failed at that only because the commandos are increadibly well trained soldiers. As it is they managed to cause a lot of PR damage to Israel.

That would be great! :)

In a few years it will be hard to see whether they live in Turkey or Iran. The first to be attacked will be the liberal naive people, with good intentions. With such a majority of fundamentalists, the process is irreversible. It is usually also very swift. They should leave as soon as they can.

ultra religious plus the ultra nationalists.

First of all i have to say that i am no extremist or fundamentalist, i am just a person who believes and hopes peace ion earth. but it must be also said before erdogan turkey were puppet of USA and other european countries. with Erdogan we became one of the powerful countries in the world. Unlike you feel ( ı used 'feel' because you have little information about him but speech on flotilla incident) ERdogan is a pragmatist and moderate poltician. Yesterday el kaide said erdogan is very dangeorus for islam and islamic countries like iran. They said that Erdogan is capitalist and western oriented leader. See brothers, Erdogan has no problem with Israel or USA. He believes peace all over the world. Please dont make unhealty comments on him without getting any information.

wil this investigatgion bring back the innocent victims? anyhow let us wait and see how serious this investigation will be.

buy products from Israel and pay the debt, just as Israel continues doing business in Turkey with no diminution at this point. An Israeli bank may purchase another Turkish bank soon. Business relationships continue as smarter heads prevail. Turkey and Iran are historic enemies

What has the Korean thing got to the with the May 31 flotilla incident? Your reasoning is so ill... You have no shame...

No. The world is not going to let you sweep 9 dead bodies under the rug. North Korea will be dealt with in due course. The comparison is apt tho, as both North Korea and Israel are rogue nuclear powers who ignore the international community to their detriment.

It has plenty Ahmet or is the irony beyond your intellect ,where,s the Turkish IHH humanitari an aid flotilla to Pakistan ,as it doesn,t seem to have docked in Karachi yet?

If talk is silver silence is golden. At the end of this investigation Turkey will have a lot of regrets and yo will be very angry because from a pure legal point of view Israel did not break any laws. Israel acted by the law and the 1992 treaty that gives her the total control of Gaza shores. The most agaisnt Israel will be that they used somehow excessive force that's all. On the other hand this investigation will bring out a lot of issues about Turkey, the IHH and the government's involvement in this provocative mission. This is why President Obama had warned PM Erdogan not to insist on a UN investigation. He is lawyer, he knows.

Maybe 1992 terayt can give control over Gaza to Israel but Israel attacked to the ships in international waters not in Gaza's or Isreal's territorial waters so Isreal must to prove hers good intentions, and must let the probe.

Isn't that enough? There are nine dead people here. Also Israel attacked the boat in international waters. But I suppose that doesn't matter either.

Dear david Lan orospu fIrlatmasI, the stone started rolling, this is only one of many UN investigations to bring the truth in light until now Israel was allowed to me myself and I standards but the world had enough of it, no body stands above the low, certainly not Israel, when I travel around in the West Bank and see the Palestinian communities living behind barriers, high concrete walls or enclaves with in the separation (Qalqiliah) yet the Palestinians have the hospitality to invite every body to be their guest. As to the israelis living in fortified settlements guarded with weapons up to their teeth ready to shoot any traveler who passes by. As One Bedouin put it we have nothing to hide we did not steal any thing from any body but they (Israelis) came and stole our land being afraid that we will go and take it back, that is why they live in fortified settlements that is why they use roads (road 443 one example) only for apartheid blue Israeli ID's only. If Obama is a Lawyer he should knows what is Apartheid I would say.

I have to agree with your intro. Good post.

I've read the "Israel Project" 86-page manual on how to communicate with Americans. At one point it says, "When you are stuck and don't have an answer, change the subject." Good luck to you.

And what about the numerous incidents that have never received any sort of attention from the UN, such as Turkey's Genocide of Armenians, The Sri Lankan Conflict, Turkey's conflict with the Kurds, and many more... Anyway John, I'll stop now lest I too am accused of 'changing the subject'...

was used by the very Israel govt against Turkey. Each year Israeli lobby "make pression" to US senate and president not to pronounce the genocide word and ask load of "services" in return from Turkey. Is there is any double face bahaviour in this issue Israel is part of this this long lasting party