Germany and Israel fail to agree on submarine sale
Germany funded more than 80 percent of the cost of Israel's first three Dolphin submarines in the 1990s.
By ReutersGermany and Israel have failed to agree on a sale's deal of a German submarine to Israel, a Berlin source said on Friday.
"There is no financial commitment," government spokesman Ulrich Wilhelm said. "There are no concrete negotiations with Israel over a sixth submarine. As for whether there are informal talks -- because of the nature of the matter, I can make no statement on this."
The U.S. journal Defense News reported this week that Chancellor Angela Merkel's government had turned down Israel's request for a discount of up to one-third on the price of a $1.6 billion package including two other warships and torpedoes.
Germany funded more than 80 percent of the cost of Israel's first three Dolphin submarines in the 1990s, and is currently accounting for a third of the cost of two more submarines being manufactured in Germany.
The full cost of the diesel-powered Dolphin class submarine would be some $700 million. Others already in Israel's fleet were extensively underwritten by Germany, which is dedicated to Israel's security, founded in the aftermath of the Holocaust.
With Germany currently reining in public finances in the country's biggest post-war austerity drive, Berlin has made clear it can grant no additional military aid at the moment.
Wilhem's comments appear to confirm the end of a year of negotiations Israel had hoped would lead Berlin to grant large subsidies, as it has in previous sales.
Israel would find it extremely hard to buy the vessels without German subsidies, having decided last week to trim its defense budget by 5 pct in 2011 and in 2012.
It had hoped for similar aid on two Meko corvettes, built at ThyssenKrupp's Blohm+Voss shipyards in Hamburg, and Defense News reported that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu appealed to Merkel personally on the matter.
Wilhelm said the two leaders spoke on the phone over the past week but could not say whether naval aid was brought up.
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A dolphin submarine. |
| Photo by: Tomer Appelbaum |
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I hope the Germans put in a fail safe mechanism so that all Israel's German subs will implode if they decided on the 'Samson Option'. Oh, of course they did :-)
And the whole time the nuclear armed Israels whine about Iran. Germany and the USA should cut off all aid to this very dangerous rogue nation. They, not the Palestinians and Arabs, are the true world threat.
if Germany couldn't give the submarines to give some tanks such will be pleased both countries
why does israel NEED those vessels?who against and for what missions? assuming israel NEEDs those vessels-being imperative or necessary or even instrumental to its safety and security-don't you consider that under such conditions,any state-israel especially-would acquire the requisite craft subsidy notwithstanding.?
While Israel continues to ignore all outstanding U.N. resolutions and refuses to comply with international maritime law, it can not be trusted with ANY advanced weapons capability. It is also about time Germany refused to comply with Israel's extortion demands..
Israel was not breaking any international maritime marine laws when it boarded the Turkish boat. Under the Helsinki Principles boarding a ship in international waters is legal. Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable grounds to be stopped and captured. After prior warning, clearly resist capture the may be attacked. As for the subs Israel has 5 but would like 6 so it can be easier to operate from Israels borders at all times which is part of the countries future plans .. take the war to the enemies border rather than wait for them to come to you. Israel is looking to expand its navel capabilities and is no longer just giving the navy scraps whilst the air force and ground forces get 90% of the budget.If Germany doesn't sell the sub at a discount Israel will make do with 5. If it doesn't sell the ships at a discount Israel will either build its own or buy American. However you look at it the biggest loser is Germany becase they dont get 2 thirds of the $1.6 billion which would be coming from Israel in exchange for the 1 third discount.
With their Trillion dollar debt they could save US$3 Billion by cutting off all aid. Not that that will ever happen with the AIPAC owning Congress...
Israel gets $15 billion a year "from the American taxpayers, while people in my district are losing their pension benefits." "Israel will receive $2.775 billion in aid from the United States in the 2010 fiscal year." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBE2CWJx1_w
And save $ i billion a month by not propping up Muslim fascist dictators in Muslim lands ,Mubarak,Karzai,Gul etc. so how about it Hayduke it,s only fair in these tough economic times ?
Israel gets just under $3 billion a year in military aid the bulk of which must be spent in the US so that means the money never leaves the country it just gets recycled. Military aid given to many countries is just an indirect government subsidy to the US arms industry and there are all kinds of string attached like the bulk of money Israel spends on importing weapons must be from the US. Israel is not free to take the US aid and them spend the rest of the military budget in other countries. There are all kinds of political conditions which is why the US has so much influence over Israel. Also if you can get a weapon system and you can get the American version free on aid why spend lots of money developing your own - thats means contracts to US companies and as Israel finds its note economical to develop- its own because its free from the US so it means that its wont be building anything which can later be exported and compete with the US equivilant on the international arms market so less competition. the US is the winner from military aid, the US will sometimes help Israel finance specific projects like Arrow but the amount of direct financial aid these days is very low. The palestinians have had more in cash handouts from the US since Obama came along than Israel. The whole purpose of an increase in military aid was in exchange for the slashing of direct financial. aid
Seems to work evrywhere else.
Social welfare is cut down in Germany because of international monetary crisis. Angela Merkel might be committing political suicide to explain german voters, german jobless people and german single mums with children that they will get much less support because of Israels desire to get two more submarines and, as I learnt here, two more corvettes, paid first of all by the population of Germany. Due to informations Israel will get 2,775 Billions of US-Dollars in 2010 just for military equipment - not enough??
I guess that Germans in their twenties feel no need to pay for the guilt of Germans in their eighties. I guess that just leaves the Americans to pay--as usual.
I don't think you can pin that episode on Germans in their twenties. It's Merkel and Germans in their fifties...
Don't sell them any more arms, it's clear to everyone now that they do not handle them like adults. Good for you for having the courage and integrity to stand up for what is right. DO NOT HELP ISRAEL START WORLD WAR THREE.
more evidence that germany still owns the jews.
I bet the Government of Israel is now calling the German government anti-semitic. Because of The Destruction of European Jews(Hilberg) any criticism of the Government of Israel is "anti-semitic !@*?
Germany's Angela has been trying to string a "saving package" that would bring drastic cuts for German taxpayers which depends on a broad consense in fall since she has lost her majority in the second chamber (Bundesrat). In this taught atmosphere the idea that Germany could afford a 530 m. Euro present to a foreign country for its canon boat diplomacy is adventuresome. Let's see how she will "govern"!
the German Bundeswehr faces cuts of 8 billion € until 2014 while also constantly fighting in Afghanistan, and its simply not possible to give presents to anyone at the moment. But additional Dolphin subs that the German Navy phases out (exactly for reasons of budget cuts) should come available soon. Maybe that is something for Israel.
Great, well may as well roll out the red carpet for the nwo running us from israel.
Germany is no longer willing to heavily subsidize Israel's submarine procurement. Is Germany running out of guilt? Or has Israel's image been so devastated by the last few governments that it is no longer viewed favorably. Could those fighter attack passes at German ships and UN troops trying to oversee the Lebanese cease fire have anything to do with it? Is it really wise to act like the school yard bully?
The Holocaust as horrendous as it was is Hisory with the main players dead or soon to be. If you were born in 1945 you will be 65 today. This is the problem Israel faces. Most of Europe didn't have anything whatsoever to do with the Holocaust. There is no guilt, couple that with the economic downturn where our defence forces are looking at cutbacks, in a time of war. Combine that with the behaviour of the current Israeli government it would be very difficult for any government to give a weapons platform such as a dolphin class submarine wiithout there being major political fallout. Beside's having a 6th Dolphin class submarine is not critical for Israel's defence, it's an extra shiny new toy which Israel does not need.
Let Israeli Defense live within it's budget - without foreign aid. The world will be a safer place
Chaim if you want another want and a nice small aircraft carrier I suggest you have a "whip 'round the settlements" you should come up with few shekels!! Pay your own way for a change!
If we can only get the US congress not to sell the F-35 to israel, the news will be much better.
It is very unlikely that the United Kingdom will allow Israel access to the engine technology for the STOL version of the F35. Cutting edge technology given to Israel has a tendency to end up in China
Palestinians have as much right to weapons as Israelis do. It takes some special sort of chutzpah to use tanks and Apache helicopters and F-15 fighter planes, not to mention illegal phosphorous bombs, against unarmed civilian women and children in Gaza, and then demand the other side can’t defend themselves. I think every People in the world should have the same rights as Israel and the US to have whatever weapons they want.
simple...
Actually they completely agree on the submarine SALE - where they disagree is the submarine DONATION.
Do the Israelis never tire of asking for other people's money?
germany believes that it urgently needs to keep an eye on its spending, so who is to say different ?. for this and other reasons israel needs to start to become selfsufficient, paying its own bills and growing into a independent nation in the future.
We're Israel!
Holocoust exploited by the victims grand-children.
we do need the ships, so lets do a miracle. if we take the money we spend on the *eshivot* for one year qith Gods help we pay for the ship. ahamen.
Israel, with the most formidable military in the Middle East, is expanding its armaments, while at the same time raising protests about the arms being purchased by Arab regimes.
We only arm ourselves for self defense. All of our wars were in self defense, and for our survival. Now we have to condend with the likes of Hiz and Hamas. If these militant groups would be disarmed, we wouldn't have to spend so much on defense.
Israel's flotilla of submarines is quite modest in size Mark and well tailored to perform the variety of missions assigned. For practical reasons a sixth Dolphin class boat is required to ensure a constant number of boats be available despite the need to perform overhauls. To deem Israel as 'armed to the teeth' with submarines is laughable. The IDF is dominated by land and air force types, with the naval forces restricted to the minimal forces necessary to control access to Israel from the sea.
What do you know of the balance of powers in the ME dear Mark? Sadly and ironically, a stronger Israel helps maintain ME stability. Cliche as it sounds, the Arabs understand and respect only power; not reason or reaching out. Israel has only ever waged war on its Arab neighbours as an act of defence. And Israel has never used its full force, even when it had every moral right to.
You can keep three submarines at a constant state of readiness with a four submarine fleet. France's and Britain's nuclear deterrent being a prime example. Israel wanted a 6th submarine because it thought it would get it for free. If it is critical for Israel's defence, then Israel will find the money to purchase it It's the analogy of a child in a toy shop. If you tell a child they can have whatever they want they woill grab armfuls of toys. If you tell the child they have to pay for what they want they can only take what they can afford.
if you study your own history you will find your "israel" began in blood and terrorism and unless their is a mass change in character and behaviour, you'll unfortunately (for the just souls)end the same way.
Diesel subs are great, thanks Germany,. but for Israel's long time strategic interests, Israel needs to have nuclear subs in it's arsenal. One small Aircraft carrier would be nice as well.
But the key word is "buy", and not "begging".
Just pay for it!
fuel cells will be the next standart for subs, not nuclear plants
Nuclear subs are not what Israel needs. Nuclear subs are designed for deep water combat and navies that travel the world. Israel is generally only interested in the littoral waters around the Middle East & Medditteranian it doesn't have the many power or the money to be some kind of international peace keeping force. Also a carrier needs need a whole fleet of other ships to protect it and thousands of sailors and Israel only has a small navy and once again carriers are deep water platforms so they are not the kind of ships Israel needs. It needs large and stealthy corvettes for surface ships and whilst the Dolphins serve Israels needs the more of them it has the further israel is able to operate from its shores and if it could find a friendly country which would allow it to open a submarine base such a as Greece then Israel can operate its subs much further out and for longer making a small fleet be more capable.
If Israel need niclear subs, than Israel has to pay for it. Very simple
In population, Israel ranks between Togo and Honduras. How many aircraft carriers does Honduras have?
The welfare is beginning to dwindle.
Controlling all of the Middle East as well as North Africa and Eastern Europe? How about being a dynamic culture at peace with its neighbors instead of trying to bully them.
The submarines constructed by HDW Kiel have launch bases prepared for nuclear rockets.
because it would be American tax money loaned to a begging Israel with which to buy arms. Oh, that's right. Our Congress and Senate are bought off, so no begging necessary. Never mind.
How can something that Israel wants for nothing be call a sale.
...We asked for a discount, not to receive for free. Don't you know us Jews like to negotiate? We never pay retail! :-)
without the brad israel nobody would give a $ for the "bloom und voss" produkts at all. the german shipjards are in japerdy. do you think abramovitsh and other "super rich guys" are buying there ships there without such havy brands like used by IDF?
I was going to start that thread. Seems like all countries are subsidizing Israel, militarily and economically. Can we name one that has actually refused?
It is not a sale ,it is called extorsion.