Canada unveils proposal to resolve conflict over Jerusalem
Plan was funded by Canadian government but initiated by University of Windsor, with former top Canadian and U.S. diplomats, the Montreal Gazette reports.
By Haaretz Service Tags: Israel news Middle East peaceCanada has formally unveiled a proposal to resolve the conflict over the future of Jerusalem's Old City, the Montreal Gazette reported on Saturday.
The proposal, which was released after seven years of research and planning, calls for a "special regime" comprising Israeli and Palestinian officials headed by "an effective and empowered third-party" commissioner to oversee a 0.9-square-kilometer district that contains the city's contested Jewish, Muslim and Christian holy sites.
The proposal was funded by the Canadian government but initiated by University of Windsor, with a number of former top Canadian and American diplomats, who helped craft the plan that is outlined in a 144-page report, the Gazette reported.
Governance and security arrangements are detailed in the report, which describes the Old City as "a microcosm" of the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict, saying that it encompasses "political, demographic, security, economic, social, religious, territorial and environmental elements."
The Gazette goes on to say that the proposal emphasizes the need for an alternative to the geographic division of Jerusalem or exclusive control by either Israel or the Palestinians, or the creation of a separate international authority to oversee the Old City.
The "special regime" concept was first published last year in a Foreign Affairs article co-authored by Michael Bell, Canada's former ambassador to Israel, Egypt and Jordan, and the former U.S. ambassador to Israel and Egypt, Daniel Kurtzer.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is scheduled to visit Canada at the end of the month to discuss the resumption of peace talks.
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Let's supplement Israeli water supplies with anti-psychotic medications, then maybe Zionists will understand that acting out on their self-absorbed obsession with their culture's past is the cause of their displeasure. Medication seems necessary as reason has failed.
the world can stick its nose as deep and as far as they want into the Jewish Tuches... but where G-ds chosen people live is the land they inherited from there forefathers, a rightful inheritance which every Jew is willing to lay down their lives to protect.
Tomorrow it's London and next week New York. When is this going to stop?
The annexation of East Jerusalem was declared ILLEGAL by UNSC Resolution 252 (1968)of 21 May 1968 UNSC Resolution 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969 UNSC Resolution 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, UNSC Resolution 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, UNSC Resolution 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, UNSC Resolution 476 (1980) of 30 June 1980 And yet, Israel defies the International Community.
The international community wasn't so assertive when Jews were thrown out of the Old City were they? No. The international community does not have to live here and has their own agenda. Besides the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank was only recognized by Pakistan and the UK. And you're suggesting we should split it with the Palestinian Authority? Or Hamas? Or Jordan?
If there could be a constructive plan for the old city of Jersualem where all the 3 religions could rule over their own parts together with an international party, I would personally accept that as a good solution of trying to find a peace agreement with the Palestinians. Whether our rightwinged government as well as our religious parties and the muslims would agree to such a plan, is very uncertain.
B''H! The UNDIVIDED Capitol of Israel, Jerusalem shall remain until the end of days, in the hearts and hands of the Israeli people.
In hearts and minds maybe, but an independent Palestine with East Jerusalem as its capital is inevitable. No amount of emotional rhetoric will change this inevitability.
Jerusalem belongs to Israel & who gives the right to any other country to divide it? The descendants of Ishmael were given other areas to live.
is an arabic / Muslim & Christian City. Go out
around your holy site and quit having delusions about our most important spiritual locationWhat planet are you from? Jerusalem is The City of David! Which pre-dates Islam by more then a thousand years! God gave you Ishmael and Ishmael gave you the desert! Go back to Mecca and start counting the grains of sand
If its all about the Temple Mount, then test the Arabs with this plan: 1) Jerusalem remains united as it is today without border posts. It's the border posts that will kill and plan dividing the city, including the Canadian plan. 2) Palestinians government will move to Abu Dis and use the buildings they have already built here to run their entity. 3) Special access arrangements are made for the Temple Mount. This means that on certain days of the week, access is given exclusively to Palestinians and visitors from the West Bank/Abu Dis. All gates to the Temple Mount are closed on these special access days, except one. Access to that gate on special access days can only be made from a point outside of Jerusalem. How you make ask? An underground rail system is developed with an access point close to this one single gate. At the end of the special access period, everyone on the Temple Mount leaves. Anyone on the mount would need to leave via the underground train to a Palestinian controlled point. This means that no contact is made between Israeli and Arab during this period and no border checks would be required. 4) Palestinians agree that everything below ground on the Temple Mount is sovereign to the Jewish people. No diggings whatsoever can be made as the tablets with the Ten Commandments may still be buried in the ground on top of which the mosques stand today. Breaking this commitment will have severse consequences. 5) On days when access to the mount is from Israel, Jews who wish to, can pray in agreed areas on the mount itself. I believe this is an original plan. I take credit for it and the only reward I want from it is to witness true peace between the nations. The Arab world must enter a new era of acceptance and enlightenment. The Jews have a long history and it is time the Muslim world accepted the Jewish version of it. Specifically, what is important for Jews and what is central to Judaism. The solution above will facilitate this. Sharing and security is the name of the game.
If you want to assuage the Muslim world, give them Toronto instead. Naomi Klein would applaud and gladly serve radical jihadists in any way possible
While you're planning internationalizing Jerusalem, internationalize Mecca/Makka too. Internationalize Mecca/Makka as a confidence building test.
S: "While you're planning internationalizing Jerusalem, internationalize Mecca/Makka too. " Why? Mecca is a city whose sovereign is universally recognized: Saudi Arabia. The Vatican City is a city whose sovereign is universally recognized: the Holy See. Jerusalem is a city that has two claimants, and NOBODY ELSE currently recognizes either claim. So out of those three holy cities it only makes sense to discuss internationalizing one of them i.e. the other two do not need internationalizing because there is no disputing who owns them.
Then we'll divide Montreal into six parts and Toronto into five parts and allow Egypt to govern them.
The Canadian proposal is enlightened particularly in view of what the locals have achieved to date. Mind you for anything to work the it's all ours pipedream must be put to rest.
) Jerusalem remains united as it is today without border posts. It's the border posts that would make the Canadian idea fail. 2) Special access arrangements are made for the Temple Mount. This means that on certain days of the week, access is given exclusively to Palestinians and visitors from the West Bank. All gates to the Temple Mount are closed on these special access days, except one. Access to that gate on special access days can only be made from a point outside of Jerusalem. How you make ask? An underground rail systems is developed with an access point close to this one single gate. At the end of the special access period, the Temple Mount is cleared. Anyone on the mount would need to leave via the underground train to a Palestinian controlled point. This means that no contact is made between Israeli and Arab during this period and no border checks would be required. 3) Palestinians agree that everything below ground on the Temple Mount is sovereign to the Jewish people. No diggings whatsoever can be made as the tablets with the Ten Commandments may still be buried in the ground on top of which the mosques stand today. 4) On days when access to the mount is from Israel, Jews who wish to, can pray in agreed areas on the mount itself. I believe this is an original plan. I take credit for it and the only reward I want from it is to witness true peace between the nations. The Arab world must enter a new era of acceptance and enlightenment. The Jews have a long history and it is time the Muslim world accepted the version of it. The solution presented above will facilitate this.
Stop the silliness, follow the money, it's not about ancient history, magical prophecy, or any of that flim flam which is purely to fool sheeple. Criminals always are ruthless enough to murder and steal. Wake Up!
Jerusalem is not negotiable so Canada is wasting our time with nonsensical proposals.
The Canadian proposl, that the Old City be administered for 25 years by an impartial third-party administrator -- chosen by the Israelis and the Palestinians together, makes perfect sense and would work in the context of a two state solution. It's principal advantage is that it would not be administered by self centered chauvinists. The ones who think a proposal like the Canadian one is "nonesensical" are the last people who should be in conrtol of the Old City. Peace will occur only if sooner or later there enough Jews, Palastinains and Obamas inside and outside of Israel and the West Bank who are willing to stare down the Chaim Ben Kahans and his Muslim kindred spirits and say, "Buddy, you are out of line. We're dead tired of you. Go stuff it, and if you don't like it, move to Tehran, Mecca or Brooklyn, whichever you prefer."
I wouldn't know whether to laugh or barf at the idea.
This sounds like a good idea, with a lot of thought and research behind it. It also sounds like this was started in a different time, when Canada had a lot more credibility with both sides in this conflict. Unfortunately, the present Canadian government has made Canada an unequivocal "supporter" of Israel while going out of its way to alienate and demonize the Arab world and Muslims in general.It is doubtful that the Canadian government will really support this plan. Also, I suspect that the Canadian plan, no matter how good, will be easy to dismiss by any rejectionist forces on the Arab side. At the least, the shift in Canadian government policy means that the plan will not get the hearing it might deserve. Since it depends upon a sharing of sovereignty, we can also expect that it will be rejected by the Israeli government. But, hopefully, some of its ideas will inspire further conversation and may be useful in the future as serious negotiations over J'lem begin (as they must, eventually).
Get it through your head, Shaun, that Canadians are shocked and in fear of Muslim attacks. The Mississauga 18 proved to the Canadian government that innocent citizens in Canada are indeed targets. Alienation? It's the Muslims who have alienated Canada. They murdered almost 200 Canadians on 9/11. They have murdered other Canadians in Israel and elsewhere for "jihad" and "resistance". Let the Muslims change their policies of murdering innocents, and Canadians may change their minds. If you want a shift in Canadian policy, let the Arabs and Muslims stop demonizing themselves. Canadians remember that Iranian Muslims shouted "Death to Canada" when they found out the Canadian embassy in Tehran had sheltered American embassy workers the Iranians were trying to kidnap and hold prisoner - against international law, of course. Not to mention the innocent Canadians they arrested and murdered in the past few years. Get with it Shaun, and stop swallowing Islamofascist propaganda.
Is it true that an Israeli humam rights activist got arrested in last days?
That Jerusalem has now become the most controversial piece of real estate in the world (a city built upon its own heap as recorded by the Hebrew prophets of old and forewarned to the world as a burdensome stone for all nations), is a testament of the intensity of certain spiritual forces still very much at work in this strategic spot. That Israel has been reborn and rooted in its ancient homeland and has reclaimed the ancient City of Jerusalem as its beloved capital in our time is a clue as to which spirit is prevailing and what spiritual promises will actually come true. The best laid plans of Canadian mice & men will go astray in this area as they fail to see clearly and fathom the background battle waging in the higher spiritual dimensions of this conflict between Judaism and usurping Islam.
Canada and America need to realize that Jerusalem is the capital of the State of Israel. Israel will not give up one inch of Jerusalem voluntarily. So unless Canada is going to put their RCMP on a canoe and force Israel to give up one inch of jerusalem they should STFU and worry about the United States stealing their water from the Great Lakes.
Oh, nonsense. Unless Israel want's to live in eternal turmoil and dissaray with the Arabs, it'll have to give up a small sice of Jerusalem to serve as a capitial for te Palestinans. Big deal! For gosh sake ... do it!
- you are correct. Unfortunately the news article that appeared in this newspaper was a very water down summary of the original nws article that appeared in the Canadian newspaper. Canada never suggested that Israel give up Jerusalem. The article referred to to a dual Israeli and PA forces guarding over the Kotel and Temple Mount , respectively with a small foreign Peace force of some sort in the area to buffer any problems that might arise from these two very sensitive areas. You need to get your hands on the original article.
The only internationally-recognized capital of Israel is Tel Aviv where 100% of the embassies are located.
The Jews/Israelis already share the Kotel and Temple Mount - and by the way, pretty much anyone is allowed to visit the Kotel, not so the Mount! Look at history and tell me who shares better (hint: those who others call infidels, pigs, and monkeys)
Your emotions and your religious beliefs lead you to contend, “Jerusalem is the unified capital of Israel.” But your emotions and your religion have let you down. Israel is a state lacking any legal basis for sovereignty in Jerusalem. UN resolution 181, under which Israel declared statehood, declared Jerusalem to be an international city, “corpus separatum,” managed under UN auspices. For Israel to build there is a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention, and breaches of articles of the Convention can be considered a war crime. In 1980 the Knesset passed the “Basic Law” which declared Jerusalem, "complete and unified," the capital of Israel. UNSC 478 declared the Knesset "Basic Law" null and void and a violation of international law. This resolution also called upon member states to withdraw their diplomatic missions from the city. And there is not one foreign embassy in Jerusalem today. They are all in Tel Aviv, the legal capital of Israel. Israel annexation of Jerusalem is a violation of international law. And Jewish religious beliefs do not supersede international law. If international law had to conform to the beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism etc., there would be no international law.
Mr. Kraft the UN has become an undemocratic forum for the Muslim world and any other undemocratic country, so don't preach to us about international law. If the UN are even thinking of electing Quadafi to the human rights committe says it all. The UN has lost it's mandate long ago
I am not Mr. Kraft, but you meant me. You must surely realize that your statement, ‘the UN has become an undemocratic forum for the Muslim world and any other undemocratic country, so don't preach to us about international law,” is an absurd unlearned statement. As a Jew you resent the UN because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country in the world. In addition, Israel is in violation of 5 articles of the 4th Geneva Convention. Each breach of an article of the Geneva Convention is considered a war crime before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. So you believe that only Arab or undemocratic nations could reach those conclusions and register such votes. Do you believe that the US and the EU, for example, all democratic non-Arabic nations, should acquiesce to Israeli violations of almost 100 UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention, because they are democratic and non- Arab? Do you advocate that there be no international law? You, sir, make yourself look like an ignoramus.
I am not Mr. Kraft, but you meant me. You must surely realize that your statement, "the UN has become an undemocratic forum for the Muslim world and any other undemocratic country, so don't preach to us about international law,” is an absurd unlearned statement. As a Jew you resent the UN because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country in the world. In addition, Israel is in violation of 5 articles of the 4th Geneva Convention. Each breach of an article of the Geneva Convention is considered a war crime before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. So you believe that only Arab or undemocratic nations could reach those conclusions and register such votes. Do you believe that the US and the EU, for example, all democratic non-Arabic nations, should acquiesce to Israeli violations of almost 100 UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention, because they are democratic and non- Arab? Do you advocate that there be no international law? You, sir, make yourself look like an ignoramus.
I am not Mr. Kraft, but you meant me. You must surely realize that your statement, ‘the UN has become an undemocratic forum for the Muslim world and any other undemocratic country, so don't preach to us about international law,” is an absurd unlearned statement. As a Jew you resent the UN because Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country in the world. In addition, Israel is in violation of 5 articles of the 4th Geneva Convention. Each breach of an article of the Geneva Convention is considered a war crime before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. So you believe that only Arab or undemocratic nations could reach those conclusions and register such votes. Do you believe that the US and the EU, for example, all democratic non-Arabic nations, should acquiesce to Israeli violations of almost 100 UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention, because they are democratic and non- Arab? Do you advocate that there be no international law? You, sir, make yourself look like an ignoramus.
of MY tax dollars! "The chief administrator would also establish and oversee an internationally staffed police force, which would function under a unified command structure, with the assistance of Israeli and Palestinian liaison officers. This force would be responsible for community policing, maintaining public order, counterterrorism, controlling access to the Old City, and enforcing civil and criminal laws. Finally, the chief administrator would establish a close working relationship with an advisory religious council and the existing custodians of the holy sites; there would be an independent legal system and a dispute-resolution mechanism; and the OCSR (Old City Special Regime) would cooperate with national and municipal governments at both the operational and the political levels." Yeah, just like great austere weapons control the UN is excercising in Lebanon! I don't know why this is deserving of "news" - this first appeared in April 2009 - Haaretz is one year out of date.
New ideas alas are old ideas. A two state solution refers to the original partition of the British Mandate into two states. Jerusalem was to be governed under an international trusteeship.
I appreciate the Canadian effort to establish peace in Jerusalem, but ithe proposal means to take East Jerusalem away from Israel. There are very seriuous disputes in EJ, that can only be solved by military force against Arab mobs: for example the issue of Pal building a third mosque in Solomon's stables. which the Pals keep hidden from the public, but is an affront to Israel, because the Pals use it for rewriting history. I would not trust the OCSR to be able to handle this one to the satisfaction of both sides.because of all the propaganda involved. That is a NO to this proposal
Jerusalem is such a special city that it is about time that it has received special, studied and balanced consideration. As an Israeli, I am fed up with the unfair smear that "so-and-so wants to divide up Jerusalem", as if it were a piece of cake. The usual reply is also repugnant, such as "Jerusalem is already divided." Both accusations lead us nowhere. All sides to the dispute seem to trust Canada so let us give their idea a fair hearing. Shlomo Sokol, Kibbutz Gadot
Why are Israelis thinking only of themselves? Today, a solution should be attained using reason instead of religion, mythology, ideology and ancient history. I, as a Canadian Christian, want to be free to visit and pray at the Christian sites in Jerusalem if I want to without being spat at, which is happening today. Palestinians and Jews also should feel free to pray at their holy sites. The only way this can be achieved is through a regulating international body. Otherwise, there will never ever be peace. I wonder if this will be posted.
What a bunch of horse---t. Christians worship freely in the Old City under Israel rule. Most of the trouble is between the many Catholic sects that want to control the Holy Sepulcher (not Jews). Did you care one bit when Jews could not go into the Old City from 1948-67; I'll bet you didn't.
I have taken many Christians to holy sites in Jerusalem. They obviously had access, prayed, etc. like any holy site without any issues. Where did you get this information?
He would realize Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel. Jesus will be returning there. #26 is Exactly right, and if you read Psalm 2 in the old testament you will understand. :) A Catholic
What are you talking about? You obviously are seriously misinformed if you say those kinds of things. I am also a Christian Canadian, and I've NEVER encountered what you're talking about while visiting Christian holy sites in Jerusalem.
Some religious Jews living in the Jewish quarter of the Old City - not all of them of course - do spit on people who are not dressed like them. They do not target Christians but anyone who's not part of their community. Maybe that's what the guy is referring to here.
The only time that Jerusalem was open to all faiths is when the Israelis controlled Jerusalem. This is present history and previous history.
You actually have no idea when, and under whom, Jerusalem was open to all faiths, because you have no idea how many years in the history of Jerusalem the city was actually under the reign of the Israelites. Abraham was welcomed by the Jebusite King and, probably their God, Melchizedek when he entered Canaan about 1900 to 2000 BC. Jerusalem was built by the Jebusites and they inhabited the city for over 100 years after the Israelites arrived in Canaan. It was also a Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Byzantine, Arab, Hellenic, Roman, European, Mamluk, Ottoman and British city. There is, of course, much said and written about history. But you will not find a single reference to, “present history,” whatever that means, and “previous history” is a bit redundant.
Israelis are waking up and realising that they will be forced to go back to the 67 borders soon and this is the first in a wave of 'suggestions' to keep some form of authority over Jerusalem. Well too bad, too little too late, you have had decades too choose peace but you didn't want it. Now it will be forced upon you, one way or another.
Israel will never go back to those borders. It will keep Jerusalem, and I can assure you any peace deal made Abbas and his cronies will back out of and try to blame Israel. No one can force a country to do anything
We're fortunate to have former diplomats researching and proposing suggestions in resolving this most contentious core issue within the ME peace process, and they're at one of my former Universities, in Windsor, and hometown where I grew up! How ironic that it's also at a border region between Canada and U.S. Back to the ME though. The 0.9 sq. km. area could very well be managed by Israeli, Palestinian and an international authority, but there are a number of critics to this arrangement and they say: " Since when is Jerusalem become an international issue?" The Orthodox Jewish community especially argues Jerusalem is Israel and that it's the basis of Judaism (and later Christianity) and of course the religious Muslims would argue in a similar tone. If then indeed it's a territorial and religious site which is disputed by Israel and the Palestinians, the managing authoritative council should consist of both Israelis and Palestinians. The issue of sovereignty of the Temple Mount site, which entails the jurisprudence of the site could be lower property to Israel and upper property to Palestine - kind of duplex arrangement which is supplemented by the archaeological evidence and historical writings including the Torah. Just an opinion from a layperson.
Cut the nonsense.Jerusalem is the UNDIVIDED capital of Israel.PERIOD!!
Canada should first solve the Quebec and Alberta separatist issue before advising other counties....eh?
UN Resolution 181 addressing this issue is NOT new. NO cigar on that bright Idea. By Roman design, this idea was first proposed and paterned by the Vatican city idea.. No place for the Pope in this situation.
Three mandates over one piece of land means only troubles. A great example is the actual "mandate" of the Jordanians/waqf over temple mount. They only make troubles, they let pals throw rocks to jewish ppl on the Western Wall and most of all, build illegaly structures while taking no care about all the archeological pieces they bring to light with such activities. As an example its free to see all the artifacts the Israel Archeology Authority already discovered in the earth the pals took out from the temple mount to build new mosques. (And of course, if they build on the temple mount there is no "threat" to the status quo... but if jews rebuild the "Hurba" synagogue it is). West Jerusalem with temple mount for the jews with free access for everyone while east jerusalem for the pals.
but if jews rebuild the "Hurba" synagogue it is Israeli Jews in non Israeli territory actually.
Daniel likely lives in a world which has a Federal, State, County and Municipal jurisdictions, all who concerntrate their powers over different areas which sometimes overlap. He isn't even aware of them. There's intercommunity disputes in Jerusalem, but that doesn't at all mean that multiple mandates can't work, and work very well.
You fail to grasp that all four jurisdictions are united under federal rule as one nation and the other three operate under rules not claimed by it. As to the multiple mandates being able to work, look to history and the rights of various communities under Moslem rule.
I am a Canadian, and the government can not even settle the native Indian rights claims, so stay out of other peoples conflicts, you have your own conflict right in Canada.
What it does as a Sovreignty within it's own boundaries, is no one else's business according to the UN Charter. Israel is a Sovereignty what it does within it's own boundaries is no one else's business. What it does OUTSIDE of it boundaries, i.e., in "territories occupied" IS every UN Member state's business.
There are no recognised boundaries, that's the object of negotiations. The 1948 aka 1967 green line is a cease fire line not a boundarie.
Jerusalem belongs to all three montheistic faiths: christians, Jews and Muslims. Therefore this conflict is everyone's conflict.
let these canadians solve their own french english problems. They are not from here, they just do not and never have... no third party and no christian party should think they have anything to say over our jerusalem. time of the crusaders and the peacefull christians who during centuries are responsible for pogroms and killing jews and muslems in israel and europe. jerusalem is the holiest city for our jews, and with muslems living together is no problem and never has been a problem. The whole problem started with the european killings of jews and arabs in israel, and till today western (christians) are responsible for the situation in the ME.
That's your oppinion? Than solve the situation in Iran alone... Israel and the Western World are partners and friends! Europeans and Americans did many thing wrong, but we've learned the consequences!
because Brzesinsky, Gates, Cindy Sheehan, Walt, Mearsheimer, are all Ahmadinejad allies
A good idea which will, probably, not work. Why should Israel freely give up its "crown jewel" to the Palestinians? What will they give up in return?
Jerusalem's old city is too important to too many different people to be 'owned' by any one people. The proposal isn't for Israel to give up the old city to the Pals, rather it should be cared for by an international body with Jews, Arabs and Christians all on the council.
If it is "cared for" by an international body... how is Israel not giving it up!!????
Israel give up the old city period.... uh huh right.... oh because YOU think it is too important for Israel to rule... Start 'internationalizing the Vatican first... ok then you can call on Israel to do the same. Good luck with this latest "scheme".
Visit it first and see if it is under any danger more than the pals themselves...
It has always been controlled by someone. Now it is Israel, and to change that, the Palestinians will have to change. The U of W's is not a new or unique idea. It is better done in a different form. The Palestinians will have to pay a substantial price for any form of influence there. It is a simple reality like it or not
It is simple, Israel controls it now, and it is not a complicated or unusual idea. Did the US give NY to the UN?
i have, it is unlikely to happen that's all.
The Palestinians have nothing more to give; Israel has taken most of what they had.
Internationalize Mecca.. allow Jews and Christians into Mecca..
Actually, that honor goes to the other Arab states going back to WW1
Really there is no reason for Israel to give up its sovereignty over Jerusalem
Jerusalem is a Holy site for ALL 3 MAJOR RELIGIONS!!! Mecca is only Holy to Muslims so if Jews and Christians were allowed to go there, why would you want to? If all comes down to that fact that all religions are the root of all evils and think that anybody with a different religion is going to hell! SAME GOD diffferent name!
The UN are not respected in this part of the world, take southern Lebanon or Iraq for example, no force stopped just because the shiny blue helmet UN "troops" are about. These people certainly wouldn't stop katyusha missles being fired at Ben Yehuda St. It's not a viable secure option for Israel to give away the majority of Jerusalem.
And on what planet have you spent the last 62 yrs ???
Christians are catholics, lutherians, calvinists, evangelists, Syriacs, Copts, Orthoxox... why single out the Vatican which is for Catholics only? Meanwhile, Jerusalem is the sacred city of all Christian faiths, and of the Jews and the Muslims.
NY is entirely American, while only West Jerusalem is in Israel. East Jerusalem is in Palestine.
Mecca is sacred to the Muslims only, while Jerusalem is sacred to Christians, Jews and Muslims. Christians and Jews have no reason to go to Mecca.
Under international law, Israel has sovereignty on West Jerusalem only, and no one asks the Israelis to give up West Jerusalem!
Oh the hypocrisy of the generalized world makes me laugh. Especially because this comes from Montreal. If Montreal law enforcement invested as much time and money on cracking down anti semitic hate crimes going on in their streets every month, maybe the time and money they spent to write a homework assignment on how other nations should manage their territories might get taken a bit more seriously... The irony...
what planet are you from ...last time i looked \Montreal's on going problem is a language issue between french and English oi Montreal has better bagels than those in Israel
This article is a synopsis from a study headed by, among others, a scholar (Michael Bell - former Cdn ambassador to Israel, Jordan and Egypt) from the University of Windsor (Ontario). It was recently picked up by the Montreal Gazette. Since the article was produced in April 2009, I'm uncertain why the Gazette only recently picked it up. They were not the authors. Your point about anti-Semitism in Montreal, however, is well taken.
Well since you mention it, the solution IS kind of like the Vatican. An extra-sovereign enclave inside a broader city, run by a different authority, with de facto control of security and infrastructure by the surrounding polity. Of course there would be added national and multi-tradition issues, but a good starting point. Thanks!
The only thing on this board that rises to absolute truth is that Montreal's bagels are better than Israel's. We even dream about them in New York.
The only thing on this board that rises to absolute truth is that Montreal's bagels are better than Israel's. We even dream about them in New York.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/64900/michael-d-bell-daniel-c-kurtzer-and-prem-g-kumar/the-missing-peaces
"...A peace agreement would bring recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and the new Palestinian state: embassies would relocate there, new institutions would appear, and tourism would surge. The influx of international specialists knowledgeable about the OCSR's areas of responsibility would directly and indirectly create a significant number of new jobs."... -why not keep the less than 1 square km holy city holy from all that jazz and let the specialists, the OCSR, the tourists and the worshippers, do their mondane business outside the perimeters of the holy city in whatever state they chose: palestine, israel or both.
An excellent idea. Why not a UN body rule Jerusalem- it important for too many people to be left in the hands of this fickle sheister politicians
And who makes up the UN? Intellectual giants and angels of altruism? Here's a question: Why should Israel or anyone else trust this organization? Has the UN ever defended the basic rights of Jews as people and as a people? Has the UN ever defended anyone effectively?
Why should Israel or anyone else trust this organization?" Er it is Israel who has dissed the UN. for 60 years. Why should anyone trust Israel? " Has the UN ever defended the basic rights of Jews as people and as a people?" Yes. UNGA res 181, enshrined in the Declaration of a Jewish State. ALL UN conventions apply equally to all people, even if they're Jewish. " Has the UN ever defended anyone effectively? " Yes. In your need to justify Israel's illegal behaviour you have to diss the UN. I understand your need...best kick the habit...
the real problem of 'the middle east' is that other states stick their noses in a 'local' problem! they act not as mediators but as impossers! usually Israel gets the short end! there will never be peace if Palestinian propganda and actions harm Israelis! there will be no real peace in the region for some time to come...or ever!
If Jerusalem was a local problem, Israel wouldn't have been created to start withi. The Christians, the Moslems and the Jews are all over the world, and the city is important to all of them.
And now tell under who the city gave free access and development such as it enjoys now? You are free to look pictures and documents of how the holy city was treated with previous rulers. The thing is, do you have free access to visit de vatican? Yes, To visit Jerusalem? Yes, to visit Mecca? No.
The annexation of East Jerusalem was declared ILLEGAL by UNSC Resolution 252 (1968)of 21 May 1968 UNSC Resolution 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969 UNSC Resolution 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, UNSC Resolution 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, UNSC Resolution 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980, UNSC Resolution 476 (1980) of 30 June 1980 And yet, Israel defies the International Community.
This rejection started the ball rolling. Many Israeli's have died and have been injured since. What about Arab responsibility for this rejection? What about this Mr Silver?
Jerusalem is sacred for Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. Mecca is sacred to Muslims only. Jews and Christians have no reason to go there.
Jerusalem is sacred for Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. Mecca is sacred to Muslims only. Jews and Christians have no reason to go there.
This is a really bad idea. The conflict is not religious; it is political foremost as well as a tribal issue. In addition, there is already a sovereign body in charge of Moslem and Christian holy sites in the old city of Jerusalem. Finally such a proposal actually undermines Israeli sovereignty of Jerusalem... (Btw I am an agnostic- so I am talking political and geographic here)...
"Finally such a proposal actually undermines Israeli sovereignty of Jerusalem..." On what date was it legally annexed to Israel?
Then we liberated it from Jordan. whether some guy 6,000 kilometers away from here thinks it's not nice or not, is rather irrelevant to us.
Great, resign yourselves and your fellow countrymen to the everlasting hostility, war, and enmity, of your neighbors and 1 billion Muslims, and everyone who wants a peaceful solution in the ME. That you don't care is the scary part. Do you really think Israel will survive if left alone in the world?
Jeursalem holy city is for Israel (jews)which God has given them. I don't know why the world is more conerned and now propose that a separate international authority to oversee the old city which I believe the UN and Vatican.This is fulfillment of Bible prophecy .
Just prove this 'god' exists first, OK? Didn't think so.
I expect tou to take an ad out in Haaretz and humble yourself. Direct your apology to Jerusalem then I will expect your visit and together will will pray for others with same stubborness. OK!
You said "God has given them". He did not tell me that? Where is the contract?
Israel must withdraw from all of the Palestinian territory, including the old city, that it occupied in 1967. If the Canadians want to place Jerusalem under a special regime then perhaps we should go back to the UN partition plan which provided for just such a situation, and Israel can also withdraw from the territory over and above that it was allocated in the partition plan but occupied during the Nakba.
Pretty sure the plan you just spoke of has as much a chance as me scoring 60 on the Golf Course tomorrow, it aint gonna happen! Israel is fully within it's jurisdiction to be right where it is, and that inlcudes the West Bank as well. How about Jordan extend it's sovereignty up to a demarcated border agreed to by Israel and Jordan and become the real Palestine, since it already is? Riddle me that Batman
East Jerusalem was captured in 1948 by the Arab Legion (Jordan) in 1948 from the Jews. In the period between 1948 and 1967 the Jordanians tried to remove all signs of Jewish presence in East Jerusalem. In 1967 Israel re-captured Jerusalem. I'm not debating here the West Bank, but Jerusalem was Jewish before 1948.What the world is saying is that any Jewish territory captured by Arabs stays Arab, any territory captured by Jews from Arabs in a defensive war initiated by the Arabs , whether owned by Jews prior to 1948 or not must be equally returne to Arabs. Sounds like double standard to me
Just a reminder: West Bank was under Jordanian Rule as well as the old city before the six day war. Also, Nakba means: We arabs did a big mistake doing war to the israelis.
And destroyed the biggest Synagogue in the Old City "The Hurba".
"Israel is fully within it's jurisdiction to be right where it is, and that inlcudes the West Bank as well. " As the occupying power only. "How about Jordan extend it's sovereignty up to a demarcated border agreed to by Israel and Jordan" Why? Jordan is Jordan, a sovereign independent. Has been since before Israel existed. "...become the real Palestine, since it already is? " It's Jordan. Only the people living in the region that became Jordan had a right to be citizens. Those Palestinians who did not live in the region that became Jordan in 1946, did not. Palestine is what is left of the non-state entity of Palestine after Jordan and Israel were declared. It's name and status have not legally changed. Palestine includes ALL of Jerusalem/West Bank, Gaza, including territories Israel illegally claims to the South bordering Egypt and to the North bordering Lebanon. Israel has NEVER had ANY territory legally annexed to it.
Jerusalem is just a part of the plan for causing the international community to condemn Israel. That has always been the case. The resolution is pathetically simple. Recognize Israel's right to exist, be real partners for peace, and you will see how much can be accomplished... in a VERY short time.
forget the UN.. lets go to the original promise to the Jews...
You are the first one to respond correctly to this. Jerusalem was Jewish and must remain so! Jerusalem can never be put out on the negotiating table.
Jerusalem is as much Christian. Face it, the city should be made an international city belonging to Judaic, Christian, and Muslim peaceful entities. Keep zionism out of the city.
" It's Jordan. Only the people living in the region that became Jordan had a right to be citizens. Those Palestinians who did not live in the region that became Jordan in 1946, did not." False, Palestinian refugees of the 1948 wave were granted option of Jordanian citizenship in 1950, which most took. This is not a position on moc's post, just a (futile) attempt to call out the vast amount of eager comment on Israel-Palestine by people who don't study it that much.
a home, not a nation?
Jerusalem was a city long before the Hebrew arrived. Oh, right. You only want to go far enough into history to where you THINK you have some sort of claim. Jerusalem WAS not a Jewish city, it was a multi-ethnic city. Do you learn history from Israeli school texts or Texan?
Does anybody know if the final proposal - report is somewhere in the internet?
I, too, would like to read this report and proposal.
Canada ? interesting idea and inappropriate as if persons in Israel both Palestinian and Israeli are not smart enough to come up with an intelligent olution that works .So you think you can dance Windsor ? Montreal, Quebec / Zichron Yaakov , Ba'aretz
What is inappropriate is not having allowed consultation from a neutral third-party long ago.
Why is this so inappropriate? I don't doubt the intelligence of Israelis or Palestinians, however it has been 60 years and there has yet to be any kind of fair and just settlement for the Palestinians. Israelis don't want to hear a suggestion from anyone unless it is 100% Pro Israel and further punishes the Arab population. It is amazing that Israel has the right to exist and Palestinians have the right to shut up and suffer with it.
Why is this so inappropriate? I don't doubt the intelligence of Israelis or Palestinians, however it has been 60 years and there has yet to be any kind of fair and just settlement for the Palestinians. Israelis don't want to hear a suggestion from anyone unless it is 100% Pro Israel and further punishes the Arab population. It is amazing that Israel has the right to exist and Palestinians have the right to shut up and suffer with it.
Truth is wherever you find it. It is arrogence to think that only a limited class of people have ownership of it. It is not at all "iinapproriate" for people who are neither Palastinian or Israeli to analyze a difficult problem and try to determine reasonable solutions. Participants in a dispute with so many international ramifications are poorly positioned to tell the rest of the world, "Mind your own business". Participants in the dispute would be foolish not to look and see what the study has to say. There is presently a major dispute going on between Guadelcanal natives and those from nearby islands who have settled on Guadelcanal. Should they be integrated into Guadalcanal or should they return from where they or their parents came from? It's participants can tell the Canadians to buzz off because the Guadelcanal dispute will not be a factor in terrorist attacks, women's rights in Muslim countries, Turkish integration into Europe, Iranian imperialism, Lebanese intercommunity relations and on and on all of which in some way can affect Canada.
Your damn right Israel has a right to exist and Palestinians have the right to shut up and deal with it. "Further punishes the arab population"?? Are you kidding? There are 358 million arabs in the world and only 5.3 million jews in Israel. There have been plenty of attempts to fair and just settlements most of which have been refused. Both sides are open to suggestions by any other country but only we (Israelis and Palestinians) will decide the terms of peace.
Interesting idea, but I fear that any plans that come out of Canada will be viewed with deep suspicion by many Arab countries owing to their perceived pro-Israel slant.
As a Canadian I can say that the political slant isn't perceived, it is. Harper figures Israel can do no wrong.
or we could stick to the international consensus of the 1967 borders, including withdrawing from East jerusalem. the canadian paper was a waste of trees,
...1967 proposal is a waste of stupidity.
Alex, who started something back in 1967 for anything to change in the first place? And whomever started something in 1967, why did they? Why don't we just go back even earlier to Ottoman Empire borders, would that work too? Lastly, when it was called "British Mandate Palestine" was anyone freedom fighting the "occupation" of the British? Yeah, that's what I thought... Thanks for playing...
in explaining the situation to someone that sees the history selectively and chooses to start the history in 48, 67 or some other date. waste of time. i have friends like these. and chose not to open the subject anymore cause it is useless. better talk about the weather. under any circumstances we will retain the kotel and the holy basin. rest is barking under moonlight
any proposal to israel is a waste, because they are too selfish
1947 UNGA. It's the only document that (still) defines the borders of Israel.
selfish? gave back the sinai,gave back the west bank and got in return?Homicide bombers and rockets aimed specifically at killing innocent civilians..So tell me sfb,who is the selfish party here?
In this particular case we are talking about the israeli occupation, so all other borders references (Ottoman empire, British Mandate, ...) are not relevant. Otherwise one could go back 3900 years, i.e. the borders from before the exodus... The clock starts ticking as soon as there is a legal stand to it: the UN resolutions condemning the post 1967 occupations. That is the entire world's position. Not only the Arab's. And international laws MUST prevail.
It might be good to start with those. Then Israel can talk her way into getting the 1949 ceasefire line. Or not.
You can't 'give back' something that was ever yours. The UN partition plan is the legal deed to the state of Israel. Anything outside of those borders is NOT part of Israel.
idiotic and tautological (look it up) term coined by fox news .. As all bombs are designed to kill, all bombs are instruments of homicide
after penning Palestinians into an open air prison. Why do Israelis keep ignoring the facts?
The way people so easily dismiss the Israeli loss of life and struggle to just BE, and conveniently forget that it was the Arab refusal to accept the partition plan that has led the "Palestinians" to the position they now find themselves in. That, and of course, their refusal to accept anything less than what they want. This is not what you call a negotiation. Another amazing thing is the way a supposedly downtrodden, occupied, destitute people DEMAND concessions and preconditions for negotiation. Something just doesn't add up here. Oh and all you supporters of Palestinians, you have Jewish blood on your hands. But I suppose that's nothing new.