Cluster bomb kills mine clearing expert in southern Lebanon

first used by german luftwaffe in 1940. copied by americans, who called it the m-83, used in korea and vietnam. variants into artillery. the italians and british also developed their own, etc.. as used by british in falklands war against airfields. they cost, excuse pun, a bomb. were they cost effective in lebanon? rough estimate, my own, about $10,000 a kill, (including various platform and other operational costs). arn't there better cost effective methods to wage war? (for which i have no conscientious objection), or doesn't that matter?

Its a good thing that they were not manufactured in China. If they were none would have exploded when dropped. Can't anyone manufacture anything that works anymore?

Johnboy carefully researches his facts and is wrong very seldom. He posts his sources also for others to check if they like. CKTan: I repeat - Israel-haters absolutely LOVE lies (his caps). Really, CK? And what about Palestinian-bashers? Are they really so lilly-white and pure? Somehow, it's really doubtful.

At the end of the war, AI, UN, other human rights groups accused WITHOUT PROOF that "...Israel..dropped...4 million cluster bombs on Lebanon." Note they explicitly said BOMBS, and NOT bomblets. The lie has largely remained intact. johnboy's assertion of "COLLECTING proof" means NOTHING of the above has been PROVEN. And he "name-drops" an anonymous MACC contact - who also CANNOT give a DEFINITE answer - to back his UNPROVEN figures. He quotes to Army MD scary technical details WITHOUT naming source, as if they are HIS authoritative data. Can he REVEAL anything ORIGINAL? NO GROUPS have CLEAR proof that Israel used 1800 MLRs to deliver the UNPROVEN load. Vague sources = estimates = absolutes = johnboy's logic! He slams Israel's lack of ethics when it is TOTALLY legit to use the bombs. I repeat - Israel-haters absolutely LOVE lies. Something to do with their superior selective reading and vague comprehension skills perhaps? (4th try)

Nice to see you back here! Regards, Silvienne

the failure rate of american made bomblets is known. question is: why doesn't israel buy israeli made cluster munitions which have a much much higher reliability? personally...i've begun to think that israel, for some twisted reason, LIKES the percentage offered by american made bomblets for the "terrorist" effect of the lingering and random deaths they bring. p.s.-i just wanted ask why it is that you don't go back home?

Please get the facts straight yourself. The islamists had launched a jihad on the Lebanese Christians and, at the same time, were attacking Israel. Maybe you have to update yourself. There was an inquiry in Israel about the responsibility of Sharon and it was proben he had had nothing to do. The Christian Phalanges said in several occasions that it had been them who killed the people at the camps. Those human beings, as you call them, were terrorists (but for a few. I told you figures of the Red Cross). And those "human beings" were torturing and slaughterin the Lebanese Christians in horrible manners. They also tortured and murdered some Muslims.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cluster.htm

bomblets! see link for number of bomblets per dispenser (note that anti-personnel bomblets are smaller, which means more can be carried in their dispensers). one fighter jet can carry up to 6 dispensers per sortie... so the question is how many israeli sorties carried cluster bombs? how many did each sortie carry? and what types did they carry? any way you look at it; your "1 per second" theory doesn't hold water.

who is hezbollah? is it the the women and children of lebanon? the farmers who work their fields? families trying heed israel's warnings by fleeing; only to die anyway? is hezbollah every single lebanese, man woman and child?; those who despise hezbollah and those who tacitly agree even though not actively? who is hezbollah, that distinct but powerful minority? is it the teams who come to clean up the mess which was left by israel? your comment makes you no better than they... oh no...but wait! it actually makes you worse than they... because they at least have a viable cause... but you Ejackal, have consistently shown that your only cause is a venomous hate; for just about everyone but your own. p.s.-your little comment, "they were probably planning to recycle the defective american munitions anyway", is very telling; don't you think? because even if they were, which they were not, they'd not have that opportunity if israel wasn't so cheap that it doesn't buy from its own weapons manufacturers who produce cluster bombs with failures rates that are a tiny fractionwhen compared to american made bomblets.

"Worse, you`re not the first person to produce this reversal of events. It appears to be a psychological necessity among Israel-backers." It reminds me all too much of Bush's own bit of history revision. He's been claiming for several years now that Iraq was responsible for 9/11.

S: "Instead of bawling about the cluster bombs dropped by Israel on the terrorist, try some of your persuasive comments on the Hez before they start the next war." When did they start the last one, Sam? Hezbollah STARTED a cross-border raid, resulting in the kidnapping of two soldiers. A serious provocation, yes, no question, but not a "war" (more properly, not an "armed attack" under Article 51 of the UN Charter). Such cross-border raids are a staple of Middle East tension, and that was no more a "war" than was, say, Israel's attack on Syrian water-diversion works at Banias in 1965, or Israel's attack on Samu in Jordan-occupied WB in 1966, or Israel's attack on Jordan's East Ghor Canal in 1969, or Israeli's attack on Iraq's Osiraq reactor in 1981. So why was Hezbollah's raid a "war", yet all of those Israeli "incursions" were not? Perhaps because there isn't any difference i.e. Hezbollah mounted a RAID, and it was Israel that used that as an excuse to start a WAR.

Please get you facts straight about Sabra and Shatila and obviously your were either too young to remember what happen, or too busy to find the facts about what happen. Yes the Christian phalange committed the massacres, but it happen under the watchful eyes of the IDF and their boss who is currently laying in a coma who was found indirectly responsible for the massacre by the Israeli Khan? commission that investigated the massacre. What Jihadist are you taking about? This Jihadist is really a new phenomenon and was not even in the dictionary back during the civil war in Lebanon between 1975 and 1990 and specifically at the time of the massacre in 1982. There were over 500 human beings that were killed along with a few kids that tried to defend their home against those bloodthirsty killers that were let loose under direct order from the Sharon. I would also add that there were some poor Lebanese who lived among the Palestinian in Sabra and Shatila that were killed as well during this orgy of killing. There are plenty of testimonials and pictures on the web ? Just Google it. Peace.

In all the claims and counterclaims nobody mentioned that the missiles shot by Hezbolah into Israel were all filled with cluster bomblets and they did fire first. Why would anyone deny Israel the right to fight back with weapons of similar destruction. The problem I have is that Israel used bomblets made in US which contained a 40% no explosion rate. This allows for people getting maimed and killed after the war is over. The Israelis manufacture cluster bombs with an explosive rate of 99% with the submunitions. This would mean two things. 1. A higher casualty rate among the terrorists and 2. A much lower unintended casualty rate among noncombatants. Such conmsiderations are moral by all past warefare events.

CKT: "Amnesty, HRW and the UN, etc, have NEVER provided ANY shred of PROOF of the ccluster bomb quantity." MAG are collecting the proof as we speak. I contacted the UN MACC liason office back in Feb 2007 asking if their estimates were holding up in the face of what was being collecting in the field, and their answer was, in short, "yes" i.e. the field data supported the initial estimate of up to 1 million unexploded bomblets. Contact them yourself, if you don't believe me: http://www.maccsl.org CKT: "Earlier this month, the UN has distanced itself from the 4-million LIE. Instead, it noted that 'UP TO A MILLION cluster BOMBLETS were...scattered by Israel...' " That's the number of UNEXPLODED bomblets, CK, left after the other 3 million exploded on impact. CKT: "AND Israel-haters absolutely LOVE it. No surprise that they are sticking to the lie." Must have something to do with their superior reading and comprehension skills.....

The Lebanese, as hosts of the Hezbollah, are ,of course, responsible and they reaped the whirlwind for their complicity.Besides the hez may also have been descendants of the peoples conquered by the Assyrian invaders. So what?Should the hez get even with the Iraqis or Syrians? That might be a better idea!

Israeli cluster bombs are much more reliable than the USA manufactured ones, but they are more expensive to manufacture.If there is going to be a next time,reliability will trump price.

The estimate (Israel refuses to hand over any firing tables) is this: 1,800 MLRS launches, each with 12 rockets, each with 644 submunitions = 1,159,200 rocket-delivered cluster bomblets. At an estimate of 20% cluster rounds to HE (the high end of the range, I admit) the artillery-delivered cluster munitions is this: 20% of 160,000 = 32,000 shells, each with 88 submunitions = 2,816,000 artillery-delivered cluster bomblets. The artillery estimate is probably too high, but you have to set that against the fact that there isn't even a ball-park estimate for the number of air-dropped cluster bomblets, as Israel refuses to release any information at all regarding them But it would be considerable, and would tend to counterbalance any downward estimate on the artillery-delivered numbers. So, yeah, an impressive technical achievement by the IDF. Doesn't say much for their ethics, though, nor for their unwillingness to be forthcoming after the war is over.....

Hezbollah is a resistance group, based on the jihad belief that if your land is attacked, you must defend it, with your life if you have to. The Palestinians are not Lebanese and are not entitled to own the land. As a result they cannot resist the Israelis in South Lebanon, by trying to defend land that they do not own, and fighting a jihad that is smeared by the fact that they are foreigners. Only Southern Lebanese Villagers can join Hezbollah. The Palestinians will return to Israel, and when they are back among the rest of their Israeli citizens, they can decide how to deal with secularism and the Zionist State.

...If an arsonist was to start a blaze, and the fireman that went in to put out the fire was killed in the process. The arsonist would be charged with murder... Very good example, Bernie. Hezbollah was the arsonist that is killing the `firemen`. Interestingly, continues to be the potential arsoninst, just in case for your future references.

It should be pointed out that the unexploded bombs are not made by Israel but by the U.S. Israeli cluster bombs have a 99% chance of completely exploding.The headline is therefore misleading by calling such bombs Israeli.People should be made aware that Israeli products are more reliable and demand that the IDF use the best weapons available.

'...There would not have been a single bullet; let alone cluster bombs, from Israel, if HizbAllah had not, FIRST, killed and kidnapped Israeli soldiers and sent thousands of Katyushas and Grad missiles at Israeli population centers.' It never ceases to amaze indeed. Never mind what the sequence of events was; when Israel began her bombardment of Lebanon, she was 'retaliating' for the Katyusha and Grad missiles. Worse, you're not the first person to produce this reversal of events. It appears to be a psychological necessity among Israel-backers.

Who would celebrate? Stupid logic. Israel has a right to defend. Attacks came against Israel from Lebanon. Hezbollah is to blame. She and her hosts are reaping what they have sown.

Time to stop mourning, and get rid of cluster weapons. Do you really want to live in the sewer morals of a bunch of drug-dealers? Neither side won the war. We can't bring back the dead. We can save others.

Amnesty, HRW and the UN, etc, have NEVER provided ANY shred of PROOF of the ccluster bomb quantity. Earlier this month, the UN has distanced itself from the 4-million LIE. Instead, it noted that "UP TO A MILLION cluster BOMBLETS were...scattered by Israel..." Then again, we are talking about Associated Press here. "4 million" is so much more dramatic than "up to a million". AND Israel-haters absolutely LOVE it. No surprise that they are sticking to the lie.

After you play, you should clean up your mess. Innocent people die. Not the pro-war shrills. Do you really want to get into the mud with Hezbullah?

Bernie, Instead of bawling about the cluster bombs dropped by Israel on the terrorist, try some of your persuasive comments on the Hez before they start the next war. Is the Hez sorry about the death of this man? No, they rejoice in it hoping they will gain propaganda points the world over. Unfortunately most in the U.S. fault the Hez.

Hizbolah and Hamas are extremists that could not be controlled by the local legal authorities (Lebanese government and the Palestinian Authority) without proper help from West – that never came. And when the state of Israel retaliated with such ferocity, the end did not justify the means since the Lebanese government was greatly weakened by such a reaction, Hizbolah and the pro Hizbolah camp had gained in sympathy inside Lebanon and in the entire world. Sure that Hizbolah should not have attacked Israel, but the immoral retaliations toward civilians; more specifically the usage of cluster bombs in civilian zones (most of them were lunched after the cease fire agreement!) was an irresponsible reaction that resulted in additional hatred from the Arab nations and other nations toward the Jewish state. One should at least recognise that this disproportional retaliation was one of the worst actions taken by the State of Israel over its entire existence.

All those apologists to radical Islamists should realize one important fact: The world at large does not care if Muslims who are hostile to Israel are killed. Time and time again, Muslims fighting Israel are killed, as well as innocent Muslims killed as by- products of the conflict, AND the world does not care. The U.S. population does not care, UK as a whole does not care, Russians don't care, Japan doesn't care, etc. Why is that so? It's because Islamic extremism is known the world over for what it is - a violent death cult. When bad things happen to them or collateral damage to their citizens, Ho Hum, another few members of the violent cult have met their maker. No one cares.

If 31 innocent people were killed in Lebanon from previously unexploded cluster bombs dropped in the Israel-Hizbollah war. I am sad. It is horrible. I do not believe that the goal of Israel was to prevent Lebanese civilians from returning to their home. I also must admit that I am not an expert. I do know that Hizbollah launched missles with the intent to kill civilians. Population centers were targeted. That was the defined goal, the modus operandi. If Israel reacted quid pro quo, they would have bombed civilians. Purposely, and publically for the world to know; tit for tat. With Israel's superior weapons, hundreds of thousands of Arabs would have been blowned to smithereens. And if you respond Israel must show restraint for American aid, then Israel always apologizing for civilian deaths are therefore sincere. How about peace? 2 countries-Israel and Palestine negotiated fairly. But Hizbollah/Iran bombing Israel from Lebanon is a clear act of war. And they hide in civilian areas.

Then, since the Hizbollah and whatever other terrorists use to sheltering among civilians, Israel shouldn?t defend its citizens. Is that what you mean? And by saying that, you guys are encouraging those people to continue to shelter among civilians. The killings at Sabra and Shatila were the job of the Christian Lebanese Phalanges, who were fed up with the jihad and the slaughter the jihadists were committing on them. But for 25 children and 15 women (figures of the Red Cross), all of the other dead were terrorists, pals and from different Muslim countries. It was sad they killed those children but they must have been fed up with the rape and the slaughter of their own children and must have lost their heads because of it.

and used with the intention of sustained killing long after the delivery date. Pre meditated, random murder!

and used with the intention of sustained killing long after the delivery date. Pre meditated random murder!

Good for that hizbollah terrorist who tried to dismantle the bomb. At least, he did something good in his life. Maybe he can be an example for his comrades. I suppose peace-loving Jews don?t criticise it (neither will I) because of the double standard of some people who don?t recognize them the right to defend themselves. People criticising the cluster bombs never criticise the attacks on Israel or the murder of Jews. They always find justifications for these actions.

when the bbc showed an unexploded bomb (NOT a "bomblet") in a lebanese living room, their hezbollah guides pushed a young boy (about 10 years old) forward to have his picture taken with it. only idiots would blame israel for a war they didn't start, or for injuries to civilians that they didn't cause.

Dublya, you wrote " Sabra and Shatila massacres committed possibly by, and certainly with, the full cooperation of the IDF." got any proof?

I?m surprised at so many callus comments on the death of someone trying to clean up unexploded bombs.

Finally words that make sense.

Tell me, What happened to Manahatta, the grate Indian chief when the New Yorkers throw him and his people out from their land? Mike, Its well recorded...

Did you sit in the war room of IDF on that day? Were you awake? Or it is all in your dreams

But unlike most of the savages trying to defend the death of this civilian, at least you are willing to not celebrate at his demise. We disagree however, on the rest of what happened. Perhaps Hezbollah could go in and disarm them (one of the militants died trying to disarm one last week), but the real problem is that there was absolutely no adantage to dropping the 4 million cluster bombs at the end of the war, except to continue the cycle of hatred. All peaceloving Jews should be speaking out against this war crime, and hold the commander responsible for this decision. Trying to deny civilians the right to return to their homes, is the source of most Islamic Extremism, and AntiSemitism, and humane semites should be speaking out now.

Moses was a humanist, a fair man. He did not approve to let haters and sadists have their way.

You are correct in this, the most practical way to deal with explosives is usually to isolate and demolish them, unless you are a terrorist attempting to somehow salvage them.

Cluster bombs have killed 31 civilians. These bombs were dropped in the last weekend of the war for the sole reason of not allowing civilians to return to their homes (a repeat of the strategy in 1948) and to kill people if they did. How can you defend Israel, when the Israelis refuse to question and hold accountable the Air Force commander that ordered the dropping of 4 million cluster bombs onto civilian areas. I believe that everytime a clusterbomb goes off it is a violation of 1701, and a proper response would be a UN attack against Israel. Do you agree?

They were designed to detonate on impact, they didn't because America sold Israel defective equipment. It doesn't matter, Israel was attacked and had the right to retaliate without all that stupid warning of terrorists so they would have time to move or put their children in harm's way. Israel had no obligation to leave even a single Lebanese Personal Alive. The whole place could have been Dresden and Israel would have acted within its rights.

If an arsonist was to start a blaze, and the fireman that went in to put out the fire was killed in the process. The arsonist would be charged with murder. The fact that you racists have no problem condemning the 31 civilians killed by illegal cluster bombs since the war ended last year just proves you are simply a bunch of antigentiles with no concern for humanity. There are caring and kind followers of Judaism, then there are the racists, like yourselves, that dare call themselves Jews, sullying the name for the rest. And you wonder why extremist Islamic groups form, and you wonder why it becomes impossible to negotiate with Israel. It is because in the 20th century, racism will be opposed, and antiGentiles will not be tolerated.

"If only men could kill just the perverted superstition called Islam and not the people who believe in that shit". Awesome! Could not agree more, it is a perfect summary of what is needed.

They were probably planning to recycle the defective American Munitions anyway.

Israel waged a defensive war against the hateful initiators. Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers on israeli territory, killed soldiers on israeli territory and sent thousands of rockets aimed at israeli civilians. Hezbollah, and everyone around the globe defending hezbollah in any way are responsible for the death of the mine expert. Wherever you live, if you in your heart defend hezbollah, or even are apologetic towards hezbollah - you have a personal responsibility for this death.

It is generally understood that the war with Lebanon last year was started by Hezbollah. But it is reprehensible for Israel to have held the entire Lebanese population accountable. We must remember that while the Hezbollah occupies portions of southern Lebanese, they were by and large Palestinian refugees from the 1948 and 1967 wars with Israel. Perhaps instead of always crying antisemitism, we should be more concerned about the antiArabism in Israel and the United States. And while I in no way condone Hezbollah's actions in 2006, their leadership may very well have been the be descendants of the Sabra and Shatila massacres committed possibly by, and certainly with, the full cooperation of the IDF. They may have simply intended to "get even", a common character flaw of many Middle East nations.

1 per second...hard to believe

During 1999 bombing of Serbia US/NATO USED CLUSTER MANLY ON CIVILIAN TARGETS when they bombed downtow city of Nis(also bombs with unrichment uranium) and they use in Iraq and Afganistan as well !Nobady is takin responsability for those actions,there is no justice in this World!

yes, israel is evil for using clusterbombs. israel's heard it all before. lest we forget the thousands of misguided Kaytusha rockets that rained over israel? or the kidnapped soldiers that started the war? how keen some are to use selective memory to recant times of war.

America has cut Israel off of all cluster bomb shipments.

That way, we'll get rid of two problems at one time.

An expert would know that you do not touch a cluster bomb. You blow it up. But maybe this expert, and the killed before him were trying to salvage the bomb so they could use it against us? When will it end?

Cluster munitions can be for instantaneous detonation, or they can be made to create instant mine fields. Which did Israel use? If the weapons were to have detonated as they hit the ground, then Israel had better find a far more competent manufacturer. If they littered populated areas with munitions designed to deny the population the ability to return to their homes and fields, then perhaps there is need for a war crimes investigation.

As far as you are concerned, it is against human rights that the Israelis defend themselves, whereas to attack Israel, to kidnap and murder Israelis is in accordance to human rights. Such twisted people.

The entity is a war crimes perpetrator of global proportions. Its sick and pathetic defenders are deluded - Israel is a state of terror. I call for all Americans to cut aid to the entity right away.

Since Hizbollah people are so ?brave? and looking forward to becoming ?martyrs?, why arent they sent to clear the bombs? Besides, the responsibility for the war is on them.

My condolences to the family and friends of Abbas Jaber. My thoughts and prayers go out to them. May G-d bless you all.

from Hizballh rockets?

When Nasrallah feels like ruining his country again in an absurd war, I fear that it won't be bomblets that are dropped on empty fields to prevent katiusha launches. Next time, Zahal may take off the "jewish morality" gloves and carpet bomb everything south of Beirut without regard for civilian life. That won't probably teach the Muslims a lesson because they never learn nothing: that's what subjugation to and in denial of a psychotic cult is all about. If only men could kill just the perverted superstition called Islam and not the people who believe in that shit ...

In short, do any of you trendy pro Palestinian/pro Iranian, biased, anti-Israel, anti-American, and probably anti-semetic jerkoffs advocate a fair 2 State solution between J

First off, I am indeed sad to hear that Lebanese civilians are getting killed from previously unexploded Israeli cluster bombs. But the response of the jackals on this forum is sick. What a hatred of the Jewish State of Israel. Does anyone of you jokers agree that a Jewish State of Israel should exist next to an

.......for each death caused by their cowardly act of dumping millions of cluster bombs over Lebanon in the final hours of war.

More painfull Israel makes it for Arabs to attack her, maybe Arab will think twice before doing it. Oh well, that is if they have the organ to think. I guess it has been replaced by hate. You get what you sow.

July 12, 2006 - Hizbullah attacked Israel, crossed the UN-confirmed border, fired rockets at a Jewish community, killed Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two more. Hizbullah also fired hundreds of rockets on a daily basis on Israel's population centers. 1 million Israeli citizens were forced to leave their homes due to the daily katyusha barrages. Yet some people here accuse Israel of commiting war crimes. George Orwell could not have imagined such a thing.

Deaths from leftover ordnance after wars is a horrid after-effect of war and while it's an Israeli bomblet responsible for this tragic death, the blame lies only with HizbAllah and their Lebanese hosts. Blaming Israel, the retaliator, is that same old moronic nonsense from the "it all started when they hit me back" school of apologia. There would not have been a single bullet; let alone cluster bombs, from Israel, if HizbAllah had not, FIRST, killed and kidnapped Israeli soldiers and sent thousands of Katyushas and Grad missiles at Israeli population centers. To see this any other way, is ludicrous and to bleat about "Israeli crimes" and such is pathetic. Find the Israeli retaliation toostrong,or "disproportionate"? Tough luck. Don't start wars you can't finish.

the fruits of their aggression against Israel. Hope they remember the lesson when waking from wet dreams about again attacking Israel.

It's also the sound of cowardice.

My dear Moise (Moshe), your name is an insult to our most illustrious prophet. How can you blame Israel for anything? Do you prefer another 6 million Jews including you to die before we react? It's great idealistic, but not stupid. Regards from South Africa

The person killed was a mine clearing expert, they were working a dangerous job and knew the risks. This is not an example of war crimes, this is just a reality of war. I don't see you accusing the Jordanians of war crimes because of any IDF engineers getting blown up when they de-mined the border. In fact to my recolection innocent civilians dying because of coming into contact with Unexploded Ordinance doesn't count as war crimes either, they are casualties of wars gone bye. People die in war, its a fact, the differance is who was meant to die. Thats what seperates the IDF from Hizbollah.

Ha'aretz' reports says, "The United Nations and human rights groups accuse Israel of dropping about 4 million cluster bomblets during the summer fighting." Israel and the United States are "terrorists" by any definition, and no better than the Palestinians who use suicide bombers and rockets against Israeli civilian populations. How come very few Israelis condemn the use of these bombs, while criticizing the Palestinians who use more primitive weapons? And the "body counts" prove that the Arabs are far more "terrorized" than the Israel's. When will they ever learn?

I'm not impressed.

Another poisoned gift from the Israelis. It will take years to reap the mess they have sown.

A day will come when Israel and the IDF will pay for its War Crimes, it may be years from now but it will come. Everything is documented there will be a time when all will answer for the crimes they have committed

What kind of experts are they if it blows up in their face?

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