Brzezinski: U.S. should forcibly stop IAF flying over Iraq to reach Iran

And again! Axelrod lays into Netanyahu's govt for 'intentionally' trying to derail indirect talks, and now Brezinski actually mentions the Liberty! I'm amazed. This is literally unheard of. It is a combined effort on the US admin's part to put ISrael in it's place!

Z is damn right, the war on Irak was a big mistake, strongly supported and planned by israeli's friend in Washington (who else's interests were served by this massacre), Now Israel wants to wipe out yet another country for the sake of its security? I hope Obama still have enough power to oppose that.

If you think the Govt of Israel has highest security clearance from the US, you are wrong. US does not give Govts security clearances. Israel is running espionage operations in the US. FBI spokesman, and Justice Dept recently announced Israel runs 2nd most aggressive intelligence operations in the US. According to Dept of Defence docs, the Israeli attack on USS Liberty was deliberate. Ship designation letters were painted 10 ft tall on each side of the bow. The ship was flying the oversized US holiday flag. The Israelis shot it to pieces. The Israelis jammed ship?s communications. Israeli recon plane flew 90 ft above the mast twice. Airmen and US crew waved at each other. Two waves of fighters arrived and strafed and rocketed the ship. The 3 torpedo boats arrived and circled firing 40mm shells at the bridge and waterline. Firing 5 torpedos, one killed 24 of the 39 killed. To abandon ship, life rafts were put over the side. The boats closed and machine gunned them sinking them all.

who are you kidding?

make it the property of the US (as Brzezinski claims). And according to the SOFA, the Iraqis, at least in name, have the final say. In any case, my post is to show that johnboy lied about the INTENT and the CONTENT of the SOFA re his reply to Kam. But THANKS for sharing your thoughts.

make it the property of the US (as Brzezinski claims). In any case, my post is to SHOW that johnboy LIES about the INTENT and the CONTENT of the SOFA re his reply to Kam. But THANKS for sharing your thoughts.

I now see that Iraqi airspace has become the issue, my how events get spun. Everybody who is propelling this bit of "reality" to the forefront is forgetting one element. That is, that the Iraqis may actually want to see Iran's nuclear capabilities destroyed, by whomever. Better it be the Israelis, thus taking the responsiblity for this from the hands of the Saudis and the Americans. It is important to remember that we are living in an area of the world where saving face, and taking revenge on your enemies is ingrained in the popular psyche. It was only two decades ago that Iran and Iraq went to war. You can feel assured that the Iraqis felt that their cause was just to this day. The image of Iranian nuclear facilities being blown up would be, how to put it, orgasmic for the Iraqi leadership and its volk. Thus if the Iraqis say sure go ahead, then this roadblock has been removed. spin away gang.

here's my scenario, josh. the IAF is engaged over iraq & the israeli planes seem to back off & disappear. the news get out to all main media outlets that the US has spoiled an israeli mission to bomb iran. everybody sighs w/relief & the iranian leadership is overjoyed beyond their dreams. meanwhile the israeli jets refuel on US hangars in the gulf & together w/the US they set out & successfully obliterate the key iranian installations. the russians participate, too. this is later referred to by historians as "the one moment when world powers knew how to act in time." the world goes silent. ban ki-moon doesn't dare to even give an announcement. most sunni arab regimes are tacitely happy. brzezinsky realizes his idea has helped make the operation work & has a nervous breakdown. nasrallah has one, too. ahmadinejad quitely disappears from the scene & later a more moderate regime gets to power in iran. the only voices kicking & screaming are from venezuela, sudan & gaza.

The US Military is providing Air Traffic Control for Iraqi airspace. They're doing it because Iraq Air Traffic Control barely exists. It will be interesting to see how Iraq can have 'effective' control over their airspace whilst not having a clue as to what is in their airspace.

Osama bin Laden was NEVER supported by the CIA or in any other way by the United States. That oft repeated parrot call has even made its way into a few books, unfortunately. Bin Laden himself started a boycott of all things American in 1982 and would not have accepted American help even if they wanted to help him. What little involvement the US had in Afghanistan was through the Pakistani ISI who had sole discretion of dispursing funds and equipment. It is apparent that they got a hold of stinger missiles through this indirect channel. Those with an unhealthy taste for the ironic have to stop spreading this falsehood.

It is precisely your type of American arrogance, Dave, that makes us despised around the world. And just to correct your skewed sense of history, the way it played out was that when Israel was caught off guard on Yom Kippur and the late Golda (whose balls were bigger than any US or ISraeli head of state after her) went to Nixon and asked for an emergency supply of weapons. Nixon hesitated, and Golda gave him a 24 hour ultimatum and told him basically, "Either you are going to give us conventional weapons NOW or we will have no survival option but to kick it up a notch." Nixon blinked, Golda got - and the rest, as they say, is history.....

"Imagine the U.S. air force taking down IAF planes over the blue skies of Iraq." Better yet, Swiss (Dino), imagine Russian S300 missiles taking down IAF planes over the blue skies of Iran!

"If Americans are too scary of striking Iran we can and will do it alone." Go ahead, Vitaly. Do it alone. And when all is said and done, and scrap Israel has been resusitated, Israel's second Holocaust set own in writing so the world will not forget, then maybe, just maybe, Germany will volunteer Nuremberg for the new war crimes trials. Heil Vitaly! In the meantime stop complaining that the USA won't fight Israel's battles for her. You have the best supplied armed forces in Asia. It really does sound stupid for you to whine for the USA to do your killing. Just don't forget what Ahmedinejad said: we will cut off the hands of anyone who attacks Iran. Better your plane be shot down by an S300 than you should stand trial before a Sharia Court of Justice.

Sure. And queen Victoria was my grandmother.

....censorship. Didn't you notice yet...??? There simply are some "black holes" from time to time, where posts get lost somewhere on the way to Tel Aviv.... Okay, one could also replace the term "from time to time" with "pretty often"....:) But that has nothing to do with the contents of the post....

And they are at least as accurate as the Israeli missles. The estimate is Iran has 6 times the number as Israel. Any military action on Israels part would be foolish. IF Iran wished A war with Israel they could fit their missles with biological and chemical warheads. Iran is radical but not stupid enough to commit national suicide. Niether Israel or Iran will do anything other than threaten each other.

Let's hope he will, for the benefit of all concerned including Israelis.

it would be foolish for israel to attempt crossing iraqi airspace without first seeking the cooperation(and nod), of the united states; which the united states would be obligated to refuse. should israel then presume to proceed regardless, its arrogance would essentially force the united states into a situation where it had no choice but to intercept and engage the israeli aircraft. anything less would have disastrous consequences for united states regional interests...AND it's reputation. let's just hope the israeli government doesn't put the u.s. to the test on this one; because it has a bumptious and defiant habit of assuming the u.s. will always turn a blind eye and protect it from consequences. but THIS time though, it would lead to direct consequences for the united states, which carry more importance than enabling another act of israeli aggression. p.s.-to those gung-ho "israeli-pilots-will-kick-ass" dreamers; you better hope it's not put the test because because you'll be eating your words. lol...and the head-to-head "training" dogfights some have mentioned don't mean much. for safety reasons, AA combat training always has parameters within which the participants must operate, and sometimes parameters are added to even the playing field when side has an edge over the other. real combat has NO parameters to limit tactics OR the advantage given by advanced avionics and computer software.

"... Israel forces have "to fly over our airspace in Iraq. Are we just going to sit there and watch?" Brzezinski: Point 1: The airspace over Iraq is not OURS; Point 2: Yes, we are going to sit there and watch. The sensible conclusion: is to encourage Russia to deliver as many S300 missile defense systems as they can produce to Iran. Maybe some to Iraq, as wall. If Israel's rightists wants to start WWIII, that is their business; but they shouldn't count on the USA to aid and abet.

President Carter took up the Afghan cause on the initiative of Brzezinski (Kepel, The War for Muslim Minds, Harvard U. Press, 2004, p. 51). Brzezinski, in his own words, deliberately sponsored an effort at giving the USSR its own Vietnam War, and he commented later on these efforts: "What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred-up Muslims or the end of the Cold War?" It is true that Reagan-era conservatives took up the cause, but Brzezinski laid the foundations and provided the blueprint for "stirred-up Muslims" giving the USSR its Vietnam, in his own self-damning words.

Why did Jimmy Carter chose Zbigniew as his Security advisor in 1976? For his fresh brain. Zbigs brain was never used. Yes, Brzzinski was standing on the Hills in Pakistans border with Afganistan and exalted the Arab Volunteers to fight the Godles Soviet invaders (Red Army) in Afganistan.It was 1979. The Mahajeen from Arab Countries helped to defeat the Soviet invaders. But thew, no home country were the volunteers came from wanted these trained fighters back.lest they turn on the dictatorial and corrupt rulers of the Arab states. So they stayed and among them was Bin Laden. Thats how Al Qaeda was born. Dejavu Zbig.I would say use your barin. Unfortunately,a brain transplant procedure is not developed yat.Thats what Brzezinski would need. BTW.Jimmy Carter had a brother Billy,an alcoholic and an antisemite who frequently Flew to Libya to meet his benefactor Quadafi.Yep, thats when Qadafi was at the hight of sponsoring terrorists against US of A. Pres. Jimmy Carter.Nor did Zbig!!

Israel would never have gotten into this Iran mess to begin with had IL obeyed the law, as Israel's top legal advisor made clear to his government in 1967: UN Charter, 4th Geneva Convention abolish land grab via war ?The evidence strongly suggests that Israel is determined to create facts on the ground amounting to de facto annexation. Annexation of this kind, known as conquest in international law, is prohibited by the Charter of the United Nations and the Fourth Geneva Convention,? he adds, calling for it to be condemned as unlawful annexation. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=8409&Cr=middle&Cr1=east See also "Defending the West" by James Gow, 2005, pg. 50 in Google books. Google "territorial expansion" with "United Nations".

Keeping Israel out of Iran is the smartest way of avoiding WWIII.

(retry) "According to the Status of Force agreement, yeah, the USAF controls the military airspace over Iraq, and will continue to do so for quite some time." Absolute RUBBISH. The agreement CLEARLY states that Iraq EXERCISES "sovereignty over its territory, waters, and airspace" (preamble). And art 9 CLEARLY spells out that "Surveillance and CONTROL over Iraqi airspace shall transfer to Iraqi authority immediately upon entry into force of this Agreement." (my EMPHASIS). As two wrongs do NOT make a right, so two MUDDLEHEADS do NOT make a COGENT case.

What changed? Those early posts I made did not challenge Haaretz or Israel's censors. What was wrong with mild attempts to point out how Israel would put the US in an intolerable position were it to attack Iran by violating Iraqi airspace? Why was it necessary to use strong language to finally get Haaretz to post my observation about the consequences of the Status of Forces Agreement? Was it one daffy and irresponsible individual? Did the IDF censor change from a fool to an intelligent person? What was it?

who invented and designed US war planes.But the USA got all the credit.Yeah right!

There will be no dogfights anymore. They will not even see each other!

This scenario is not remote at all. In addition to the USS Liberty incident, there were numerous incidents in Lebannon where guns were drawn and/or shots fired between US and Israelis. Even Bush did not give Israel the IFF (identify friend/foe) codes to prevent Israel from sending jets during the gulf war. Furthermore, Israel flies only US planes, which are the best because of their technology. However, certain modes are disabled for export planes - and only US planes have full capabilities. Israel has no choice but to buy American becuase of US financial support. Bottom line is Israeli arrogance and bravado need to be reigned in.

I cannot believe what I read, Israeliss threaten the United States of America. Believe me guys, Israel would seize to exist the minute America removes its protective shield on Israel. This scenario will undoubtedly occur if IAF shoots down an American pilot over Iraq. My advice to those delusional Israelis, don't go there.

The scenario of the US and Israel engaged in an aerial confrontation while Israeli planes are enroute to Iraq is unlikely. I am not sure if the Obama administration has the political will to confront Iran but I know there is major deal making going on. The "settlement freeze" was an attempt to foster an Arab "green light" for Israel to attack Iran just as the termination of the Polish missile shield is an attempt to secure Russian backing against Iran. Brzezinski is not relevant and his views are often in sync with Jimmy Carter's dovish views. Iran blurs the lines between state and terror group by it's sponsorship of Hezbollah and Hamas. This bluring gives Iran bases in Gaza, Syria and Lebanon. Most opinion is in favour of stopping Iran's nuclear program. Yet an attack by Israel or the US would not have international or UN backing. Allied naval and air supremecy means that a blockade is the only way to confront Iran, however this may end in a major regional war as well.

Ahhhhh, the arrogance of power. Last time I checked, the U.S. neither "owns" nor has ever claimed to "own" the airspace over Iraq. And let's not forget that U.S. control of Iraqi airspace comes on the heels of an American military campaign that has led to the deaths of more Iraqis than all Israelis & Palestinians, combined, in all Arab-Israeli wars, combined. Whether Israel should attack Iran is one question.... I believe such a decision would be disastrous. But it pisses me off to hear Z.B. rationalize American opposition in such terms, in addition to the *moronic* Liberty reference.

Do you really think Censoring any mention of the treaty obligations the USA bears under it's Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq will make it go away? Do you think refusing to admit it exists changes anything? Can the Haaretz censors not see the threat to ISRAEL posed by making an act to war against a nation we have sworn to defend? One of the characteristics that endeared Israel and Israelis to me 40 years ago was their strong sense of reality and the need to cope with it. Now, it seems, the outstanding characteristic of Israel and Israelis is that they believe they may wish away reality, and if that is not possible, simply deny it exist. The USA is treaty bound to protect the airspace of Iraq. That is reality. If we shoot down the IAF we will have clobbered an ally. If we don't, we will have blown ourselves out of the mideast. That is the reality your censors try to deny by not allowing discussion of the Agreement on the Status of Forces that exists between Iraq and the USA.

I remember very well how poor the carter administration handled US foreign policy with over throwing the Shah of Iran and how they did nothing about the hostages in US embassy ....and everything else with US economy during their term and all weren't they kicked out by the Reagan's because of all that? how dare they make any comments about US foreign policy again? best is those losers should keep quiet.

US cannot take down IAF planes . US is aware of consequences of messing with ISRAEL ! we can remove US existance in the region if this happens

They have unlimited resources compared to the IAF and they are battle hardened. Careful what you wish for.

are u trying to trigger ww3 ! israelis should use their mind or must be stopped

Can you say the same about the other side? You really should read up the US judicial review on the Liberty incident if you want to more than sloganeer.

when it comes to bombing civilians in Lebanon and Gaza. I think Israel should be careful about bragging its airforce is superior to that of the US.

I have been Realist for 5 years. Stop using my name.

There was no reason to make such juvenile remarks. The US and Israel and not going to shoot at each other. The only reason he brought it up is to generate controversy and to denigrate Israel and paint her as a possible enemy of the US. This is from the man who gave Iran away to the Mullahs with the dire consequences that we are all facing due to his unmitigated stupidity.

Your memory of the sequence of events is fascinating. I always thought the Soviets invaded Afghanistan during carter's first term and that Charlie Wilson didn't get Reagan and the Saudis and Egyptians and Israelis to work against the Soviets until Reagan was in office. Was bin Laden involved in Afghanistan before Reagan or was that carter's second or third term? You can hate Carter all you want. But he didn't give the Shah cancer. And he didn't ship Israeli captured arms into Afghanistan with the Saudis cooperation and financing.

A deliberate attempt to silence a monitor of ongoing war crimes, versus being run over by a freighter? All Israelis please read the reports from the Liberty's crew debriefing.

Last I looked Iraq was not part of the US? so the air space in question is none of the US of A's business but an affair between Israel, Iraq and Iran. Tell Brzezninski to stay quiet.

"Israeli sub Dakar - USS Liberty fascinating connection" - Jay Chamberlin Now there is a really silly conspiracy theory. The wreckage of the Dakar has been found. Extensive photography show that the submarine's loss was operational, not an act of war.

MMM wrote: "Israeli forces can be trusted when it comes to real war.It`s in their blood to be smart" Silvienne replied: "Just like in Operation Cast Lead, right??" How many rockets were fired from Gaza in the first 8 months of 2008 compared to 2009? The goal was to stop the rockets. With regard to Brzezinski's comment, the man is over 80. At 40 he was an embarrassment to the US, and he has not improved with age.

Brzezinski is right on the money. Israel is a free agent but that doesn't mean it deserves a free pass from the US, whose interests are wholly different from the State of Israel as a number of US Congressmen and Senators are slowly but surely learning.

Israel has missiles too. Very accurate. Mr. Brezhinski need not worry although he may miss an opportunity to drag the United States into a war with the Jewish State that he detests to his theological (not "realist") roots.

"Why is bringing up the IDF attack on the U.S.S. Liberty?" - jimmy Yes, why? "That was an unprovoked attack against the United States." - Jimmy True, but it was also an incredible screw up. I had my doubts for decades. I sympathized with the intercept specialists who had to be monitoring the attack that drowned them. The NSA released transcripts of the intercepts of attacking IAF pilots. The attack was more than a mistake, it was a monumental fugg-up. "And why does Israel spy on the U. S.?" - Jimmy Why do we spy on our friends? "Is this country our friend?" - Jimmy Would a 'friend' threaten to destroy America's entire foreign polity in the mideast by forcing the USA to either abrogate our Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq or fire on Israeli aircraft crossing Iraq? Either way the USA loses, and either way, Israel would do egregious harm to the United States.

that the IAF will be destroyed when it tries to fly BACK from Iran. just how dumb are you people ? Israel wants to con America into a war with Iran ? They may be a bit slow now and then, but America has got the message and it wants Israel to sucker itself into a war with Iran. America has no obligation whatsoever to assist or defend Israel where Israel is the aggressor. You bet your life on it.

"Yes folks it was Breszhinski and his president buddy Jimmy (I`m lusting in my heart) Carter who teamed up to give us that crowd pleaser Al Qeda." Yes folks its the one eyed FOX giving his own version of airbrushed anti history for fellow amnesiacs. Al Qaeda was founded in 1988. Guess when Carter and Brzezinski [whose name FOX can't even spell]left town? January 1981. 7 years before al Queda even existed !!! Groan. Carter commenced aid to various mujaheddin only late in his term during 1979. In the first years after the Reagan administration inherited the Carter program, the covert Afghan war "tended to be handled out of [CIA director William] Casey?s back pocket," said Ronald Spiers, a former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan. Reagan's man at Langley who also negotiated the release of the hostages with the Ayatollah in return for arms. A busy man! Aid was only really stepped up in the second half of the 80's. Reagan's 2nd term. Indirect dealings with Bin laden did not occur until 1989. Yet Brzezinski did it! So a conservative Republican administration was 100% responsible for nurturing al Queda and Bin Laden. FOX, 17 and some others never bother to counter their own prejudices before posting. They must enjoy appearing stupid?

Brzezinski is a prick, that's obvious from his comment, especially for presenting a US shootdown of Israeli air force jets as payback for a case of friendly fire (i.e. the Liberty incident, which was shown time and again to be an accident, for which Israel paid compensation to the victims). However, he has no idea what Israel and the U.S. are planning or not planning. I doubt Israel would fly over Iraqi airspace if they thought they would be engaged by the USAF. Given that the Israeli and US armies are jointly drilling for missile attacks from Iran, my feeling is that the US will not try to stop Israel if it decides to go it alone. Sane people are well aware of the existential threat that a nuclear-armed Iran would pose to Israel, and I can't imagine any American President acting in a way that would facilitate another Holocaust.

"The us airforce would have an interesting time fighting israeli pilots.in training during dogfights the us airforce has never won.they were beaten every time." I guess that's because the Israeli pilots had so much practice bombing civilians in Gaza.

"The U.S. was acting against Israel by using the ship to monitor Israeli communications and troop movements and sending the information to the arab armies, so the Israelis decided to knock it out." And here I thought the whole attack was supposed to be an accident! Apparently, it's a lot better to be Israel's enemy than its ally. At least then you know where you stand--and the results are about the same.

this shnook wants to be loved by carter because everybody else hates him. zbigbrzez means alzheimer in polish.

"The only people in America that are fixated on the hazy details of the good ship Liberty are wearing hoods and calling themselves Thor on "Stormfront". Oh, yeah! Thor and a couple of hundred sailors that managed to survive Israel's "accidental" attack on the Liberty. Some U.S. and Israeli government people still pretend to believe the official version because the truth would be a little awkward.

Two trivial posts made it to the forum. Repeated attempts to point out that the USA has a treaty obligation to defend Iraqi airspace under the Status of Forces Agreement have been censored. I would bet that Mark of Lewiston is sharing my frustration right now. Harretz, or more probably the IDF, has deemed it necessary to not allow REALITY to intrude upon this discussion. An airstrike crossing Iraqi airspace would not be approved by the Iraqi government and thus would require the US to shoot or see our entire national policy in the mideast collapse as we are told to leave Iraq. Due to treaty obligations, an IAF airstrike crossing Iraq would in effect be an attack upon the United States. That would be an insane act for Israel. But it is a point that seems doomed by censors. Which shows just how nuts Israel is becoming.

Mr Brzezinski has always been anti-israel. He would not care if Israel was destroyed by Iran tomorrow morning, in fact he probably would be pleased!!!!! I really do not understand why your newspaper is giving this man a forum where he can display his hatred. Haaretz will never stop to suprise me and that not always in a positive manner.

That says it all.

The US no longer has authority over Iraqi airspace. George Bush handed authority back to Iraq right before he left office. Now even the US Airforce flies over Iraq only on the invitation of Iraq. And one of the conditions of that invitation is that the US protects Iraqi airspace from foreign warplanes. The instant Israel flew over Iraq, the US would be forced into a position of deciding to honor the Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq and use our planes to defend Iraqi airspace, or violate that agreement and put every single US soldier in grave danger. Why would Israel put the United States, and US soldiers in this position? The US would have no choice but to force the IAF warplanes to retreat, or be shot down. If Israel wants to choose that battle, don't come crying about IAF airmen lost and/or captured and held by the Iraqi's when they are shot down over Iraq.

He served under Jimmy Carter the weakest president that I can recall.

it takes one idiot to recognise another silvienne !

My oh my. When the student tries to insult the master. Its brings to my memory the 1973 Yom Kippur War. You know, when Israel "let its guard down" and Egypt threw the kitchen sink at it? That's right, it was an emergency shipment of American weaponry that saved ISRAEL'S EXISTENCE. You keep telling yourself Israel's smarter than the U.S. In actuality, you owe your existence to us, but then again, you don't think like that when you think the world owes you everything for the travesties of history. I can honestly see why the Palestinians lose it with you folks.

re should Israel/America attack Iran. Televised yesterday, did you hear it? Then there's China...

This jerk worked for Carter. Nuff said.

do yourself a favor and don`t evn speculate of such a dog fights.Israel will never,i hope, be the reason for u.s fatalities.if that day will arrive it will be a very sad day for Israel.so stop this proud notion israeli`s are better then american pilots it is a stupid to think this way ,was not proved and will not be proved,what is sure is that if god forbid this happens there will be dead pilot on both sides and neither Israel nor the u.s has any pilots to spare.

Brezhinski and other Israel-haters pretend that the Liberty was pre-planned attack and that America was an ally of Israel at the time of the Liberty when the "realist" U.S. State Department policy was to avoid challenging Nasser and his Arab allies directly and to passively enable what was viewed as an imminent Arab sweep of Israel into the sea. Didn't work out that way and the Liberty got caught in the cross-fire. Israel has strategic means to target Iranian nuclear weapon sites without requiring them to mount complex air operations and should consider these.

You would not be indifferent (although being indifferent when you see Sunni and Shia extremists going after and killing each other is bad enough for someone who claims to be a humanist) because if you were indifferent you would not be spending your time here at Haaretz talk-backs instead of enjoying your life in the beautiful Swiss Alps. This is why I can imagine the smile in your face if such a trouble would arise between USA and Israel - Unfortunately.

Mr. Brzezinski has already forgotten all his (American) lies to its allies of then. He still think the USA can do what it wants but has forgotten that the opresent Administration is run out of Beijing (finances) and Saudi Arabia (oil) and the rest is hot air! Conclusion: Iran scares the Saudis more then Israel!

If, as Jimmy Carter states, that criticisms of US Prez Obama are racist, does that apply equally to his and fellow failure, Brzezinski?

"He is a perfect example of the person who boldly moves from failure to failure without ever having to pay the price" There's a lot of them about these day...."Bibi" is another shining example..

Zbiggy helped bring the Shah down and worse prevented real American resistance to the coming to power of the Ayatollahs. He has been snidely attacking Israel for years. This is another little jab in the back from the spiritual mentor, if it can be called that, of Walt and Mearsheimer. He is a perfect example of the person who boldly moves from failure to failure without ever having to pay the price.

What democratic forces were in Iran? The Shah? He was a dictator and ruthless - hence the people rose up against him. To say that there was democracy during the time of the Shah is just plain silly.

"in training during dogfights the us airforce has never won" Without taking that statement to the test - you don't dogfight heavily loaded with bombs. Bombs have to go ...

"Israeli forces are tested" Tested against a first-rate opponent - when?

"Israeli forces can be trusted when it comes to real war.It`s in their blood to be smart" Just like in Operation Cast Lead, right??

the issue doesn't even arise. So why is everyone getting so excited?

The Israeli sub Dakar? That's interesting. Got any more info on it?

What he thinks France should do if England decides to recover Aquitaine. That's not going to happen either, so his answer would be of equal interest.

Meet you at the circle at the wawa for coffee, or Ongs Hat for a beer?

Do you?

Bin Laden was not recruited, trained and equipped by the CIA until long after Carter left office.

"Israeli forces are more intelligent than US forces" - MMM Really? I don't recall a fiasco like the Great Greengrocer Grab or the Fabulous Lumber Load Boarding.

Why is bringing up the IDF attack on the U.S.S. Liberty? That was an unprovoked attack against the United States. And why does Israel spy on the U. S.? Is this country our friend?

Hi Silvienne, did you see, another example of "uncle" Ahmadinejad today...:)

....in such a case would be better described with "indifferent". About as "indifferent" as when I see Sunni extremists going after Shia extremists in Iraq. Or the other way around....

no such luck swissman. american support for israel remains at 68%.that has not changed.obama is not fond of israel.that will change in the next election.obama will be out.

during his last visit in Israel, that the US will defend US interests in the gulf from any attack.

The real reason they are good is because of US equipment and training. But the Israelis who know, wouldn't want to fly against their trainers, it would not even be a match.

However if it happened I can only imagine the big simele and happiness in your face. Unfortunately.

it is not blessed to tell others how good we are.so in the spirit of recounting history a reminder of israeli pilots performance against russian pilots in 1970.five migs were shot down to no israeli losses.the soviets were stunned by the performance.they thought the dogfight would be a piece of cake. a whole array of soviet air force generals came to inquire the reason for their humiliation. the leader of the israeli pilots was a specially good iaf man.he was unfortunately involved in a spying incident in the interest of israel and ended his career rather early.an israeli patriot.

Always the same solution: attack. Israel has a terrible history or aggression and racism. The IDF commits atrocities and Israel cries out, "Unfair." Oh yes, remember the Holocaust. That justifies everything. Why should Israel have nuclear weapons then demand that no other country in the Middle East be allowed to even have nuclear power?

Nice of you guys to be so worried about respecting Iraqi airspace. Just to point out the obvious, which is that the present Iraqi government would not in a million years give Israel permission to fly across its airspace to attack Iran, and I'm sure they would be 100 per cent delighted to mandate the USAF to prevent an Israeli incursion.

Well we all like to think we can do better than the 'experts'. What foreign policy advisors don't do though is get dewy eyed about their 'allies'. 'Reliable', 'close', are not epithets that any American administration will get hung up on. The US has interests and as long as these are seen as best served by supporting Israel, that is what the US will do. However, a raid on Iran resulting in massive loss of life and radiation poisoning in Iran will set the region on course for much greater conflict. That means in both Afghanistan and Pakistan and most probably Lebanon and Saudi Arabia too. That may not be a price that the US is willing to pay. Once 'reliable' allies have a habit of becoming liabilities. If you read up a little more on post war US foreign affairs you'd understand that better than you do right now.

America does not need to become involved in another war in Iran. Iraq is more than enough and it isn't over yet...

the pool for selection is the whole nation.the idf picks the best to serve in the air force from a larger pool. the usaf is an all volunteer force.the best do not want to serve.

we talk friendship, we talk about protecting each other, we do not talk about stupid things like hurting each other..... brzezinski is a bad man

They don't necessarily have to fly over Iraq. They could fly either over Saudi Arabia or Turkey or around Saudi Arabia and then hit Iran from the coast. There are ways around it, in which case, the US would not be able to prevent unless they took control over these airspaces as well.

...Iran has told the Americans that, since they arm, fund and enable the Israelis, They will be held responsible for Israel's actions. Since Iran has the means of making America absolutely miserable in Iraq...and Afghanistan...The American's take the threat very seriously. And the only thing they can do is stop Israel. Remember Jordan and Black September? Well, Iran is now Israel, America is Jordan and Israel is...well, you guys can figure it out.

So you are really contemplating a successful military engagement by Israel against its only remaining ally of substance? If I were you, I would take a deep breath and reconsider. If a single US soldier (or even piece of equipment) is harmed by the IAF in such an event, I shudder to think of the repercussions against Israel. In fact your line of thinking probably corresponds EXACTLY to Ahmadinejad's. Be careful what you wish for.

Kam: "I didnt now the US owned the Iraqi airspace, talk about respecting Iraqi independence and freedom...." According to the Status of Force agreement, yeah, the USAF controls the military airspace over Iraq, and will continue to do so for quite some time. That SOF agreement does, however, have a provision where the Iraqis can request that the USAF defend Iraqi airspace. On my reading of that agreement the Americans aren't OBLIGED to agree to that request, but politically it'd be very hard for them to allow (say) the Israelis to mount a second-strike if the IAF bungles the first one.

Carter and his Security adviser, Brzezinski, armed and supported mujahadin in Afghanistan and now our sons and daughters have to die fighting the Taliban and al Qaeda; Carter and Brzezinski had stabbed the Shah of Iran in the back and now the world lives in fear of mad mullahs of Iran armed with nuclear weapons. And yet that dangerous moron, Brzezinski, has more advice to offer -- shoot down Israeli planes? There are two constants about Brzezinski: his bad judgment and his Jew-hatred.

....around. But I would still insist that there might be only very few people in Israel, who would regard a military confrontation with the U.S. to be in Israels best strategical interest...:) By the way, how much must the U.S.-Israel relations have "soured" that we are even having a discussion on that matter...???

statements like that make arab;s and others go crazy as it appears that america still rules iraq - as a 'former' diplomat' he should chose his word more wisely - but then again he's not the smartest guy in the world

Israeli forces are tested,US forces,nah.Israeli forces can be trusted when it comes to real war.It's in their blood to be smart.

Another voice from the failed Carter administration heard from. How many times do they have to be proven wrong before they finally shut up.

will start a war with Russia over Poland...NATO member or not.

I am very afraid that we go fighting far from home with few references and against a serious client. There will be POWs more assimilated to hostages whose most of them will be AF pilots. I really don't like the scenario. Iran has shot in its foot by denying the holocaust and calling for the destruction of Israel. Let the big ones do the job !

Unlike us, the Americans speak with care. Brzezinski is not in the government, but he may be delivering a subtle message that it is time to stop fooling around with the Americans. Obama is no fool; he knows we've been jerking around the Americans for a very long time.The time is up to stop games and to get down to business. In the final analysis, the Americans control us. Not the other way around. They may not shoot down our planes, but they can certainly cut us off financially and diplomatically. Indeed, from their point of view that might be all to the good!

tragedy. what we in israel must understand is that people are not free of banality no matter their high and exalted positions. the liberty comment is a little bit of spite mouthed by brzezinski.we know him.it is not surprising.

Jimmy Carter was hands down the worst President of the 20th century, perhaps even in our history. Zbig was knee deep in that horrific chapter in US history. Who can forget 20% interest rates, Iran hostages, on and on and on. These incompetents were supposed to disappear 30 years ago, when their power ended. Who really cares what Zbig and Jemmeh Cahter think. THEY ARE IRRELEVANT, in the dustbin of history. Their views are the same failed ideas of 30 years ago. Thank G-d Ronald Reagan rescued us from this black chapter of these two clowns. Disappear, "Dr." Zbig, and take yur clueless daughter with you.

fighting israeli pilots.in training during dogfights the us airforce has never won.they were beaten every time.

It is Iraqi airspace but US defended under the terms of the joint forces agreement. If Israeli fighters tried to overfly and the Iraqis requested it the US would be bound under the treaty to stop them by all means. It is not actually US airspace but it is US controlled airspace. It is only by this treaty that the US is able to conduct operations in Iraq legally so they are unlikely to breach it.

I may be wrong but I believe that the Status of Foreces Agreement with Iraq obligates America to defend Iraqi airspace. I do know that it may not grant permission to any country to violate Iraqi airspace.

Has Brzezinski come around to supporting Bush's decision to remove Saddam Hussein?

if you cant beat them, join them.

M. Brzezinski?s comments should not be taken lightly? His comments reflect the deep-seated view that Israel is not a strategic ally, not even an asset, but rather a liability preventing fruitful partnership with the Arab world, and appeasement with the Muslim world at large. A view shared by Jimmy Carter and James Baker. Although it goes across the political divide, it is prominent amongst the ?ultra-liberal? democrats and the Afro-American population. Obama?s initial moves could make us suspect he shares this view. By making this extreme statement, M. Brzezinski wants to encourage him in this path. Demanding a freeze on settlements sounds like nothing compared to a full-blown military confrontation over what the US might perceive as their national interests. It is time for Israel and the Jews to re-assess the situation and waken up to the dangers presented by this powerful lobby which will have a strong influence on the current administration. This is not about M. Brzezinski?s orig

it's doubtful, though, that obama would follow this piece of advice. it's true, S, that all the macho talk on iran stands in stark contrast to what preceded the bombing of osiris in iraq in -81. maybe israel should've stuck to that way of doing things. but i'm not sure what is worse, all the talk /an actual strike. the fact is, the talking has kept the pressure up to do something about iran, & the way the iranians talk.. difficult to imagine how israelis could've kept silent. in a way, the way the iranians act & talk, they're really asking for it - for something. they're bringing it down on their heads.

The position of the Liberty was publicly denied in the UN by the US ambassador to prevent the Arabs accusing the US of helping Israel in their humiliation of the Arabs and their Soviet weapons. False flags are legitimate in Naval warfare as long as the true flags are hoisted just before going into battle.

Brezinsky: "to fly over our airspace in Iraq. Are we just going to sit there and watch?" I didnt now the US owned the Iraqi airspace, talk about respecting Iraqi independence and freedom....

"What do you guys suppose would happen politically over here if the Russians misinterpreted this gesture and decided to gently roll their tanks back into Poland" You are completely nuts to paint a scenario as if non-deployment of a few missiles should be understood as an invitation to Russia to start a war with NATO.

was payback for the USS Liberty.

from what i heard, the U.S. was acting against Israel by using the ship to monitor Israeli communications and troop movements and sending the information to the arab armies, so the Israelis decided to knock it out. Is Brezinski trying to remind Israel not to trust the U.S. at all because that is how it treats its friends? I guess Israel will have another obstacle to knock out first if it decides to go that route.

Imagine the best pilots in the world engaging the Americans. Hope that will never happen because like the Russians learned when their pilots got shot down in dogfights in 1980 over Galilee, they got more than they bargained for. Dino go back to your Alphorn and dont cause your own nightmares.

he's spent the past 30 years being bankrolled by the royal sultans. his brazen suggestion that America somehow defend Iran from an Israeli attack raises questions about his patriotism and loyalty, he should be investigated for treason

Time to retire, Big.

....over the blue skies of Iraq. LOL Ahmadinejad would surely have a ball..... ....and Brzezinski surely has some "balls" to only suggest something like that on the other side of the Atlantic...:)

If Americans are too scary of striking Iran we can and will do it alone. Senile Brzezinski can say whatever he wants.

and now is attempting to protect shia entity in Tehran. Unfortunate Choice of the presidential adviser.

There was Mr.B. Then came Mr.K. Both with strange English accents. Both with the same ideas. Mr.K. supported Pinochet. Mr.B. supported the failed policies of some real nutty past presidents. Who cares what B says. He simply has repeated the standard concerns of all oil importers. With the exception of Russia. for a rise in oil prices may be a bonus, however, having the Iranian pressure factor taken off the table, it would place Russian Foreign policy in shambles. Then came Mr.O with Ms.C. Deja vu.

Thats right Sir, get your prayer mat ready find out which way is Mecca and CAPITULATE. There goes the Amreican dream of freedom. Don't ask Israel to do bail you out this time. Its each country for themselves.

Yes folks it was Breszhinski and his president buddy Jimmy (I'm lusting in my heart) Carter who teamed up to give us that crowd pleaser Al Qeda. Under B and C, America's foreign policy became a mess. The two brought the forces of Fanatical Fundamentalist Islam together to beat the Russians and appease their oil bloated friends the Saudis. They fumbled the ball on Iran and now are back as the dynamic dual spreading Far Right doctrines. Shall I call B an anti-semite? Sure, the only people in America that are fixated on the hazy details of the good ship Liberty are wearing hoods and calling themselves Thor on "Stormfront" (a white supremacist site, whose anemic members call themselves by Viking and nordic god names, pathetic). Both Carter and his shadow, B. have shown their true colors as of late. And many would have us think that such racists do not exist on the left. Absurd.

...talking incessantly, loudly and UNNECESSARYLY of bombing Iran...(even if this crazy idea would be seriously considered)... Frankly, I couldn't believe this terribly cheap behavior, fit for Hamas or Hezbollah, but not for an educated country... shared by, not only Netanyahu and Lieberman, but also, by unbelievably, Barak!

The fact that he can rant like that about a reliable close ally like Israel demonstrates to me that he is a has been and out of the loop when it comes to foreign security matters. If I were close to Obama right now which he isn't, I wouldn't be scratching my ass in the media over whether or not Israel plans to bomb Iran. I would be advising Obama to watch what the Russians are doing about Poland. With Obama publically withdrawing support for missile systems in Poland, Obama is... Do I have to spell it out? What do you guys suppose would happen politically over here if the Russians misinterpreted this gesture and decided to gently roll their tanks back into Poland or even something that borders on that? Think about that Mr. Brzezinski.

So let me get this straight, Mr.B is advocating the use of force, but it should be directed against Israel if it chooses to fight terrorists that are trying to build a nuke and stating that they will wipe Israel off the map. wow...can u say crazy,absurd and immoral in one word...yep, its called obama's foreign policy!

Brzezinski has form when it comes to Iran, and not very good form at that. Carter?s hand-wringing procrastination and Brzezinski?s hollow promises completely failed the democratic forces in Iran at the time.

.. and to protect itself? Only the US has the right to nake its own choices? Isn't that a new round of fascism?

I am just wondering why Zbigniew Brzezinski brought out the "Liberty" rabbit out of the hat at this moment in time? Time to settle old scores? May be!