Border Police unit kills PA police officer in bungled W. Bank action

Did those policemen kill him, or do you want all of them punished for the crimes of some of them? Do you think all Jews should be punished because other Jews commit crimes? If not, what's the difference?

Those particular policemen were doing what good police should do. Do you have any evidence that THEY were involved in any crimes against Jews? Or do you feel that when SOME Palestinians commit crimes, ALL of them should be punished?

BJ: "Try reading the second paragraph of this page--It`ll tell you who fired first and why--" Try reading the date on the byline of THIS article - 21:17 05/12/2007 - and then compare it to the date on the byline of THE OTHER ARTICLE - 03:01 06/12/2007 The information I used: "The Palestinians began following the Israeli officers` vehicle, when the Border Police officers opened fire." is (1) more up to date and (2) attributed to reporters While the information you trumpet: "During the operation, the Border Police troops fired at an unidentified group of Palestinians, "after being fired upon" It later emerged that the source of the fire had been a Palestinian police force on patrol" is (a) out of date and (b) written by the same authors. They (and you) were wrong, and they (and I) have corrected you.

Try reading the second paragraph of this page-- It'll tell you who fired first and why-- "During the operation, the Border Police troops fired at an unidentified group of Palestinians, "after being fired upon" It later emerged that the source of the fire had been a Palestinian police force on patrol"

If you have ANY problem at all checking out the facts about Muslim's in Bethlehem and what they've done to their Christian brothers, just ask, I'll send you a load of links--No charge to your credit cards--

AdK: "The pal police fire on the Isrealis first and miss, and the Isrealis return fire killing a PA police officer." http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/931658.html "The Palestinians began following the Israeli officers' vehicle, when the Border Police officers opened fire." AdK: "Perhaps the PA police need a course in target ID." Perhaps, Adrian, you might like to reflect on the fact that ALL such incidents happen the same way; the OTHER side spots the Israelis first, fire first, and then - golly gosh - completely miss. Then the Israelis are "forced" to "return fire" and - golly gosh - never, ever miss. Perhaps you might need to look up the word "gullible" in the dictionary, Adrian, if you really believe that is the way it happens.

FGS: "Pal Brit - I think it was Pals who opened fire" BZZZZT. Sorry, wrong answer. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/931658.html "The Palestinians began following the Israeli officers' vehicle, when the Border Police officers opened fire."

Unless most of the Christian shopkeepers have returned from where they fled, the bast majority of shopkeepers in Bethlehem are Muslim--All you have to do, as I said in my other letter, go to the link I supplied and read all about it--

I am enclosing part of a story published in a Christian Journal, including a link, so you can read it in it's entirety--I couldn't copy & paste the whole thing in one post---All you have to do for yourself is simply GOOGLE Muslim Persectuion of Bethelehem's Christians--The story speaks for itself, as do the many other stories-- "CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION IN BETHLEHEM This article is from a Christian source Link follows, read it in it?s entirety http://christiandreamsnvisions.blogspot.com/2007/01/bethlehem-christians-claim-persecution.html WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 2007 Bethlehem Christians Claim Persecution BETHLEHEM - A number of Christian families have finally decided to break their silence and talk openly about what they describe as Muslim persecution of the Christian minority in this city. The move comes as a result of increased attacks on Christians by Muslims over the past few months. The families said they wrote letters to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, the Vatican, Church leaders and European governments complaining about the attacks, but their appeals have fallen on deaf ears. According to the families, many Christians have long been afraid to complain in public about the campaign of "intimidation" for fear of retaliation by their Muslim neighbors and being branded "collaborators" with Israel. But following an increase in attacks on Christian-owned property in the city over the past few months, some Christians are no longer afraid to talk about the ultra-sensitive issue. And they are talking openly about leaving the city. "The situation is very dangerous," said Samir Qumsiyeh, owner of the Beit Sahur-based private Shepherd TV station. "I believe that 15 years from now there will be no Christians left in Bethlehem. Then you will need a torch to find a Christian here. This is a very sad situation." Qumsiyeh, one of the few Christians willing to speak about the harsh conditions of their community, has been the subject of numerous death threats. His house was recently attacked with fire-bombs, but no one was hurt. Qumsiyeh said he has documented more than 160 incidents of attacks on Christians in the area in recent years. He said a monk was recently roughed up for trying to prevent a group of Muslim men from seizing lands owned by Christians in Beit Sahur. Thieves have targeted the homes of many Christian families and a "land mafia" has succeeded in laying its hands on vast areas of land belonging to Christians, he added. Fuad and Georgette Lama woke up one morning last September to discover that Muslims from a nearby village had fenced off their family's six-dunam plot in the Karkafa suburb south of Bethlehem. "A lawyer and an official with the Palestinian Authority just came and took our land," said 69-year-old Georgette Lama. The couple was later approached by senior PA security officers who offered to help them kick out the intruders from the land. "We paid them $1,000 so they could help us regain our land," she said, almost in tears. "Instead of giving us back our land, they simply decided to keep it for themselves. They even destroyed all the olive trees and divided the land into small plots, apparently so that they could offer each for sale." When her 72-year-old husband, Fuad, went to the land to ask the intruders to leave, he was severely beaten and threatened with guns. "My husband is after heart surgery and they still beat him," Georgette Lama said. "These people have no heart. We're afraid to go to our land because they will shoot at us. Ever since the beating, my husband is in a state of trauma and has difficulties talking." The Lamas have since knocked on the doors of scores of PA officials in Bethlehem seeking their intervention, but to no avail. At one stage, they sent a letter to Abbas, who promised to launch an investigation.

That's why perfidy is outlawed under the rules of war. Israel want it both ways: Israeli apologists want to insist that these are police actions and, therefore, these "border police" were entitled to work undercover. Then the apologists also insist "there's a war on, you know" and, therefore, the "border police" and the regular IDF can use deadly force, and can carry out extra-judicial execution. Those two arguments are mutually exclusive i.e. either there is an "armed conflict" going on, or there isn't. And if there is an "armed conflict" going on then the rules of war apply - THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE FOR - and the rules of war prohibit troops from resorting to perfidy. Sending armed troops out on operations in civilian clothes is perfidy, and it does not matter if you call those troops "the IDF" or "the Border Police".

please go away.

The pal police fire on the Isrealis first and miss, and the Isrealis return fire killing a PA police officer. Perhaps the PA police need a course in target ID.

I couldn't care less what happens in the UK, I used to like my country, but now I despise it. It has become a liberal, PC-orientated, poor excuse for a democracy that has piss poor armed forces, a justice system that takes better care of the criminals than it does the victims, and a government who would rather suck up to the Muslims in Britain and take care of the immigrants rather than their own people.

It means dressing "local' - stealing a "local" car and trying to blend in. Obviously the PA thought they were suspicious and assumed they were Hamas as they didn't recognise them. Some would ask why the PA are cooperating with the Israeli's against Hamas and that might be the final undoing before the next internal round of clashes - spurred on by the IDF of course!

Most of the shopkeepers are Moslem eh? Selling olive wood statues of the Holy Family, Christmas decorations, modern all- revealing Western clothes, alcohol, etc. I don't think so - and I don't think you've strolled through Bethlehem recently! It is convenient for you to pass on tbe propaganda that Christians are leaving in fear of Moslems. The truth is that they are fed up with the Occupation and like anyone with a better opportunity, they have joined friends and relatives elsewhere. Many are also coming back though, so keep watching the statistics!

There is no reason for the IDF to be hiding in civilian clothes and riding in civilian trucks unless they were up to no good, like when the IDF were caught shooting civilians from a hijacked cab. I'm sure the IDF will conjure up some lame excuse for why they were out of uniform and sneaking around near occupied Bethlehem, but my guess is that they were there once again in order to frame the Palestinians for an act of terrorism in order to destroy the peace process.

The Palestinians will never be able to impose law and order without: 1. A complete cessation of Israeli Death Squadrons. 2. A comprehensive peace settlement. The Israelis are not interested in either...

its def an upseting ordeal/

respond that way the next time fatah and hamas have a shoot out or the next time terrorists attack civilans. dont simply say killing is bad when its done by IDF against someone that is shooting at them. what do you think those PALs wanted to do?? were those bullets with kisses on them or did the PALs try to kill IDF troops.

You might want to learn Hebrew because you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. The Commandment says 'Do not murder'. As for hell, we don't share you Christian views of the world or anything after death.

Friendly fire casualties occur in all wars, it's to be expected--Next time the PA won't wave and shoot their "Friendly" guns at the IDF--One consolation, it was between friends--Then again, with friends like these, who needs enemies--??

THE PALESTINIAN BRIT FORGETS TO TELL US THAT IF YOU SEND A TALKBACK TO THE ENGLISH PALESTINIAN WEB SITE FROM RAMALLAH,THEY DON'T ACCEPT ANY COMMENTS THAT RESEMBLES A ISRAELI POINT OF VIEW.BIG SURPRISE, HE FAILS TO TELL US THAT THOUSANDS OF HIS COUSINS JUMPED IN JOY AND GAVE CANDIES OUT THE DAY HIS ARAB COUSINS BLEW UP THE WORLD TRADE CENTER,IF THE ARABS WANTED REAL PEACE THEY WOULD STOP THE ONSLAGHT BARRAGE OF ROCKETS THAT COME FROM THE GAZA AND THE GANGS OF SUICIDE BOMBERS THAT CONTINUE FROM THE WEST BANK.IF THE PALESTINIANS WANTED REAL PEACE THEY WOULD HAVE IT FROM ISRAEL BUT WITH PARTNERS LIKE HAMAS,ISLAMIC JIHAD AND HEZBULAH THEY WILL NEVER ACHIEVE THEIR GOAL

You are blaming the palestinian police for shooting at unidentified gunmen on YOUR border? The IDF messed up what was supposed to be a covert operation and now a palestinian died trying to fight YOUR enemy as a result. PLEASE be reasonable, you just can not keep blaming everything on the palestinians.

Do you believe in G-d, my friend? Do you know His Ten Commandments that he gave to us several thousands years ago? Do you know that G-d said "Thou shallt NOT KILL"? Thus, how can you be glad of someone being killed? You will end up in hell, my friend.

"Witnesses said a GMC van refused to stop at a Palestinian customs checkpoint in the village of Al-Kadr, south of Bethlehem. The security forces chased the vehicle into Bethlehem, where it was stopped by another group of Palestinian security officers. A plainclothes Israeli officer then stepped out of the van and opened fire. An Israeli army spokesperson claimed that the undercover troops came under fire before shooting, and that the military is investigating the incident. The injured officer was taken to the government hospital in nearby Beit Jala, where he died of gunshot wounds to the foot and stomach. The dead Palestinian officer was identified as thirty-six-year-old Muhammad Salah, from the village of Dar Salah, east of Bethlehem. He is survived by a wife and four children.

the PAL 'security forces' have terrorists as members. you honestly think IDF should coordinate operations?? think about it. there should be no cooperation with any PAL since they are all tainted with terror. if their family members, friends, relatives or anyone connected to them is a member of hamas or al aksa or any other group, then you assume that they are all enemys and should be treated the same. back to the real question, WHY DID PALs FIRE ON IDF?? maybe now, they learned their lesson since IDF doesnt miss when returning fire.

The land of bungled operations, cock-ups, failed wars and incompetent, crooked politicians. The only thing they're good for is beating up the weak and the helpless, and then telling themselves what fine, clever people they are.

Can you tell us where the PA Police co-ordinated with the IDF when they shot the Israeli civilian last week--Now, the have the nerve to insist that they want armored cars for patrolling--

Don't think too much, it's a strain on your limited capacity--Police arrest criminals, the IDF and security services go after terrorists-- Now, don't try your corrupt stunt of adding to what I've written and claiming that your distorted version is what I really intended to say---The U.S. has local police forces and the FBI and simililar agencies to go after spies, traitors, kidnappers, etc.--

Wish away, that ain't gonna happen--IDF enters arab areas when they're in hot pursuit after a terrorist or a rocket launching crew--Last time, they went hunting for the gang that shot up an innocent civilian father while he was driving his car--

Israel has caused the Tsunami in Indonesia, the rise of the sea/ocean level, the melting of the polar ice, the ozone hole, etc. What does your list have to do with the subject at hand? N O T H I N G !! maybe an orgasm from seeing your name in print

It isn't your land, never was, you are interlopers--Here's an article that should be of extreme interest to you--All I ask is that you read it, and furnish the information I appended to the article, to prove your claim to the land-- THE HISTORY http://www.vibrani.com/Palestinians.htm PALESTINE ? HISTORY OF "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not." --- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946. You can't rely on the accounts for history in most Arab nations, because they never accurately teach it, and have this amazing habit of reinventing it on the spot. This whole notion of there being a Palestine is a recent invention - 1967 to be exact. The homeland of the so-called Palestinians is not Israel. The historical homelands of these nomadic Arabs (Ottomans and Turks) are Jordan, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia, and approximately 80% of the Jordanian population is made up of Palestinians. They were exiled from these nations, and others, because they were always trouble makers and no one wanted them. To this day Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other nations finance Arafat and his terrorists in order to keep them out of their countries. "From the end of the Jewish state in antiquity to the beginning of British rule, the area now designated by the name Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries . . . . " -- Professor Bernard Lewis, Commentary Magazine, January 1975. Let's backtrack into history a bit and show how this developed: The holiest place for Islam is Mecca, not Jerusalem. Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the Koran. Jerusalem IS mentioned over 700 times in the Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. The Jews were only continuous and stable population in the region from time immemorial - they did not abandon Jerusalem, even after the Roman conquest in A.D. 70. Israel has been the homeland of the Hebrews for almost six thousand years. Muhammad (who started Islam) was born in the year 570. Islam is the only religion that defiles other religions, churches, temples, shrines, and graves HERE?S THE LINK ? FEEL FREE TO READ IT IN IT?S ENTIRETY http://www.vibrani.com/Palestinians.htm P.S. FROM Ben Jabo--Even though I have requested it many times, nobody seems to know where I can locate any of the following: 1- Palestinian TEL (that?s not a telephone booth) 2- Ancient Palestinian coinage (Roman era or prior) NOT Mandate coins 3- Palestinian Artifacts (Roman era or prior) Note: Ancient camel & donkey dung are not acceptable-- "

it is a war crime.

are mainly Muslim--Most of the Christian shop owners were either chased out or extorted to such an extent by Fatah that they couldn't survive--The following indicates that in all probability most Christian Arabs won't be in the area after the next 15 years-- "December 4, 2007 Christian population in Palestinian-controlled areas could disappear in 15 years "The systematic persecution of Christian Arabs living in Palestinian areas is being met with nearly total silence by the international community, human rights activists, the media and NGOs." Islamic Tolerance Alert. "'Christian groups in PA to disappear'," by Etgar Lefkovits for the Jerusalem Post: The ever-dwindling Christian communities living in Palestinian-run territories in the West Bank and Gaza are likely to dissipate completely within the next 15 years as a result of increasing Muslim persecution and maltreatment, an Israeli scholar said Monday. "The systematic persecution of Christian Arabs living in Palestinian areas is being met with nearly total silence by the international community, human rights activists, the media and NGOs," said Justus Reid Weiner, an international human rights lawyer in an address at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, where he serves as a scholar in residence. He cited Muslim harassment and persecution as the main cause of the "acute human rights crisis" facing Christian Arabs, and predicted that unless governments or institutions step in to remedy the situation - such as with job opportunities - there will be no more Christian communities living in the Palestinians territories within 15 years, with only a few Western Christians and top clergymen left in the area. "Christian leaders are being forced to abandon their followers to the forces of radical Islam," Weiner said. Facing a pernicious mixture of persecution and economic hardships as a result of years of Palestinian violence and Israeli counter-terrorism measures, tens of thousands of Christian Arabs have left the Palestinian territories for a better life in the West, in a continuing exodus which has led some Christian leaders to warn that the faith could be virtually extinct in its birthplace in a matter of decades. The Palestinian Christian population has dipped to 1.5 percent of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, down from at least 15% a half century ago, according to some estimates. No one city in the Holy Land is more indicative of the great exodus of Christians than Bethlehem, which fell under full Palestinian control last decade as part of the Oslo Accords. The town of 30,000 is now less than 20% Christian, after decades when Christians were the majority. Elsewhere in the Palestinian territories, only about 3,000 Christians, mostly Greek Orthodox, live in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip, out of a strongly conservative Muslim population of 1.4 million. "In a society where Arab Christians have no voice and no protection it is no surprise that they are leaving," he said. [...] Weiner argued there was a "180 degree difference" between the public statements coming out of the mainstream Christian leadership in the Holy Land - who "sing the PA's tune" and blame Israel for all the Christian Arabs' ills - and people's experience on the ground. "The truth is beginning to come out," he said. "The question is what is being done with the truth."

these apologising IDF honchos. Perhaps they should have sent "Peace Now" with flowers to make arrests?

Dear Pal Brit, Since you live in Beit Jalla, you'll know that there has been a serious problem with Palestinians in your town shooting Israeli civilians in their homes in Jerusalem across the wadi. Yes, it's been quiet for a while, but that's because the IDF was forced to go into Bethlehem/Beit Jalla, not from the Palestinian police asserting law and order. Due to the breakdown from the last intifada, the cooperation between the security forces of the two sides simply stopped. It's only recently that they're talking again - and I personally think that it's a good thing (although somebody's ass should be dragged through the ringer if they omitted the communication on this operation). But why did the security cooperation stop? You might recall that when your last intifada started, a Palestinian police officer on a joint patrol suddenly turned his AK-47 on his Israeli partner and shot him dead. It's been pretty much downhill since then.

Everyone knows that peace with Hamas is impossible. Gaza is just a hell hole and going to stay that way for a long time. Incorporate Ramallah PA with IDF. Then treat Ramallah PA Palestinians the same as Jews. They'll be just as many rotten Arabs as rotten Jews. It won't make a difference. Security should incorporate both sides. Then Israel will be able to reach out to the majority of people who call themselves Palestinian including the ones in Jordan and perhaps even Lebanon and Syria. The conflict will be nearly at an end. I'm right.

IDF did nothing wrong. the real question is for the PALs to expalin why they opened fired on IDF. Also i would like the PAL to provide any documentation showing when they ever opened fire on hamas. I really doubt fatah has ever done that. This brings us back to why did fatah open fire on IDF??

You forgot the word 'Bungled". The IDF went in and did a botched job which drew attention to themselves. Incidentally, I believe they are supposed to coordinate with the PA - says a lot for the future.

with nails.On dec. 3,2007,2 Palestinians were killed by banned flechette shells that propel metal fragements on detonation for maximum destructive effect against human targets.In Feb.2001,israel used chemical weapons in Gaza,and 180 civilians were hospitalised with convulsions(BBCReport).Last year an israeli retired air force officer admitted they used DIME(Dense Inert Metal) in Gaza.It destroys limbs and impacts internal organs.No property damage! The international community must now move to have the UN General Assembly bring israel for war crimes to the International Criminal Tribunal.

Sad story to read today.

cos if it does, well I always thought it was the job of the police to arrest armed gunmen ...

It was the sweets in the streets, the shahids, the naming summer camps after murderers that made us have to police you. It was the hiding explosives in ambulances and sending in children, grandmothers, pregnant women with bombs on their persons that caused the checkpoints. You brought it on yourselves. You don't cry for our dead and wounded but for your own discomfort.

I guess Israel let's Palestinian security forces enter Israel at will to look for Israeli's they'd like to arrest.

to avoid such incidents.

AND THE INCIDENT WAS HUSHED UP BY OLMERT BEFORE THE ANNAPOLIS FIASCO.

sorrow for voting the SOBs into office, sorrow for letting them ruin your life, sorrow for them lobbing Kassams onto my town, sorrow, sorrow, sorrow

arresting terrorist suspects. That is what reallly happened.

Your articles are twisted enough without completely inverting the truth. Time to end the Arab Occupation of Bethlehem!

.....but keep them out of ours. We don't like them and we certainly don't want them. You keep them - for as long as you like!

Would you feel the same if it happened in your town in the good ol' UK?

we did not have to wait long before the knee-jerk reaction "It was really THEIR fault"came. Standard reaction to everything bad that happens in the territories. Israel is NEVER to blame or so it seems to some of their die-hard supporters!! I got news for you, Israel is far from perfect!

Bethlehem is looking festive these days. The shopkeepers were dressing their windows, churches adorned with lights.... and suddenly shots ring out, everyone stops and looks at each other. 5 IDF jeeps, returning from a murderous trip, screech along the road, searing the peaceful evening atmosphere. Tourists look alarmed and stop their carols. They have been warned that it is dangerous to travel to the West Bank. At least they see for themselves who they should be afraid of....and it isn't the Palestinians.

It was just a search of the town, they weren't after killing anyone specifically. The PA opened fire first, its their fault their officer is dead.

How many times must Jews be murdered by them before you stop trusting them? ONLY the IDF can and should deal with security here in OUR land.