Barenboim: New Wagner staging would make Hitler 'turn in grave'

One of the great antifascists in the days of Hitler and Mussolini was Arturo Toscanini, who refused in 1933 to participate in the Wagner festival held at Bayreuth, Germany. In 1936, at his own expense, he journeyed to Tel Aviv to conduct the inaugural concerts of the Palestine Orchestra, precursor of the Israel Philharmonic. His programs in Palestine included Wagner's music because he considered it great music, though he despised Wagner's (and Hitler's) antisemitism. The orchetra had many Jews who fled Nazi Germany. Toscanini helped a number of Jewish musicians, among them Georg Solti (later conductor of the Chicago symphony) to enter the U.S. Toscanini was praised widely for his performances not only of Verdi and Beethoven but also of Wagner. He played it often during and after World War II with the NBC Symphony in New York and on tour. He received the 1937 American Hebrew Medal for the Promotion of Better Understanding between Christian and Jew in America.

So tell me. We sit here expressing our negative feelings towards Barenboim with angry words - only words - after all we are people of the book. However, when the palestinians get angry at their own for joining a Jew's orchestra, what do you think will happen to them? Threats? Violence? Death? How many of their most talented refused to join this orchestra out of hatred towards Jews - and many more out of fear of their fellow-muslims? You think they can be in a Jewish orchestra and then return safely to a hamas-controlled Gaza? I don't think so.

Dear Mr Cera: I find myself in perfect agreement with your well-considered statements. Wagner's anti-Semitism should not detract from his music. Other great composers have had their bouts of anti-Semitism as well: Robert Schumann, possibly the quintessential Romantic composer, sometimes made disparaging remarks, possibly due in part to his jealousy of Felix Mendelssohn's success. Even Beethoven, despite his "all-men-are-brothers" ideology, had odd notions, believing, among other things, that "the Jews cook badly" (but if he could have tried my mother's potato kugel or kreplach, he surely would have been much more positive!) If we were to silence the music of every composer who ever uttered anything illiberal, the concert halls would be very quiet, indeed. Kindest regards.

This AP story has an unfortunate headline and content that trivializes the main point of what's going on. It's irrelevant to speculate whether Wagner, or Hitler, would "spin in their graves". The writer perhaps overplays Barenboim's remarks on the implicit historical ironies, and underplays the significance of the musical and human element of the story. What matters is that an excellent orchestra of young Israeli and Arab musicians has been brought together by an inspired conductor who is a masterful interpreter of this composer, one of the supreme geniuses in the history of Western music. (Yes, he was a terrible anti-Semite, but this doesn't detract from the quality of his music). So these musicians will come together to rehearse and perform some sublime music in Berlin next summer. I wish I could be there to hear what promises to be a memorable concert.

One should not believe that Hitler was so much influenced by Wagner. When he came to Bayreuth he was interested in the publicity and used it for his propaganda, just as he turned international events like the Olympic Games in Berlin (1936) into Nazi shows. He visited the festival as a devote "friend" of Winifred Wagner. He didn't understand much Wagner's esthetic intentions and prefered Johann Strauss' music. As a young man, in Vienna, H. couldn't afford to attend representations of Wagner's operas. It was during that period that H. "cultivated" his hate on rich bourgeoisie and the poor in the streets. (Jews were among both, but mostly among the latter). By the way, I am a great admirer of Barenboim. I think very much that he would have merited the Nobel Peace Price for the foundation of the W-E-Divan-Orchestra. He is one of the greatest living musicians, no doubt.

israelis are digging their own graves by trying to appease their enemies. i think hitler would be tickled pink

Dear Dr Bixby: I wouldn't think I represented my admiration for Wagner's music as an indiscriminate worship of genius, evil or otherwise. There is nothing inherently evil in the music, or the manner in which Wagner intended it to be appreciated. The music only became controversial when, long after its composition, Hitler misappropriated it as a pillar of the Nazi's cultural temple, and made Wagner one of its gods. Before that brazen theft, many Jewish musicians and conductors admired Wagner's music; I am glad some, like Barenboim, still do, accepting the music on its own merits, and not confusing it with its later abuse. My kindest regards.

while Israel and Jews fret at the prospect of a nuclear Iarn boasting it will wipe Israel off the map, this Barenboim has his priorities in "getting Hitler to turn in his grave"with Wagner conducted by a "Jew" at a theatre built by Hitler.He is so vile and odious.

It's funny, the Jew hating anti Zionists even hate anti-Israel Jews like Barenboim who was buddies with Edward Said. Just goes to show you. Now even Noam Chomsky is considered a dirty Jew by the far left because he said he didnt think 9-11 was an inside job.

hey shhhhhh, listen to the music baby. Even Berenboim has to find a way to meet young chicks, but that is reality and this forum is not about reality. Bringing together forty musicians to play some Wagner is wonderful. it will bring a smile to the face of the few who still attend classical concerts, and will hopefully put some money in the pockets of the kids, and look great on their resume, when they actually have to go out and make a buck in the notoriously back-stabbing world of fine art. As for this bringing peace, sure, just like those rediculous football matches between Israel-palestine against Barcelona, heck it brought an end to the intifada, right? If anything there is probably an angry Pal teenager who thought that he or she should have been chosen and is now thinking of creative ways to get back at the world for this aggreived humiliation. As for "fifth-rate musicians" your words, I never mentioned any, unless you beleive that Tom Waits is fifth rate?

I have many of Tom Waits cds and love them. The main difference is HE WRITES HIS OWN MUSIC AND CONDUCTORS DON'T. No one remembers the conductor, they only remember the writer of the music.( Thank G-d) Persoanlly, anything Hitler liked I feel is awful. Wagners music is dark and so was Hitler. He chose him for the anti semitism.

Hitler banned what he considered "Jewish music". So now Barenboim decides to serenade the late Fuehrer with his own favorite music. He would comment how Barenboim the Jew is grovelling to him. Hannah-Barenboims views of Israel are not far from yours so maybe you should forgive him for whatever neglect he inflicted on Jacqueline Dupre.

Such a great musician - such a very very small person! I presume, the programm will include the Horst Wessel Lied as well!

Barenboim was doing just fine career-wise before he came up with the East-West Divan orchestra project with Edward Said. He is long past needing a hook. To paraphrase your idiotic parallel with fifth-rate artists, Barenboim has been doing what any ardent peace-in-the-Middle-Eastniks with a career like his should be doing and devoting his (normally highly-paid) time to training at least the musicians in both camps to behave like the grand orchestra Israel and Palestine could be if only they learned how to bury the hatchet and get on with the music.

Actually, I'll go with Mark Twain's comment when asked his opinion of Wagner's music, he stated: "It's not as bad as it sounds!"

Tom Waits, for those who are not familiar, is a brilliant blues musician, singer and player, who leaves me needing a tetnus shot after listening to him. Great! He penned a tune entitled "The Piano has been drinking", in which he blamed some of what he was saying and playing on the piano, which he claimed had been drinking. Berenboim, like any decent musician in search of a career, needs a HOOK. Something to pull the folks in and fill the seats. Instead of plying the pavement handing out flyers plugging his act, he has hopped onto the choo-chooing "Peace in the middle east" train. Berenboim keeps his name in the press. The articles rarely discuss the music, nor does his ego allow for the musicians to be named. They are the unwashed players from Israel, Palestine and elsewhere in the middle east. Berenboim is selling tickets, he already has the wealth, now this guy needs the fame and chicks. Do it baby! This is the Music BIZ! & "the piano has been drinking", adie

An Air Pakistan plane is flying over the Indian ocean, when all of a sudden a man growns and hits the floor. The stewardess runs up to gentleman, she cannot touch him because he is a man, so she calls for a steward. The steward calls out, "Is their a doctor onboard!" Half of the plane rises, waving their arms, "Yes, I am a doctor" they all intone. "Come and help me with this man" exhorts the steward. "Sorry, I am doctor of post-Mongol studies" "Sorry, but I am a doctor of anthropology and psychokenetics, specializing in the need for women to fulfill their kitchen duties before bed." "I am a voodoo doctor." The third world is a system that puts great honor in the placing of the word doctor before, during and after one's name. Few of them could save a dog from drowning.

Dear sir, I find it interesting that you have found the time in your busy day to post to this forum. You wrote that you hail from Pakistan, oh my! Now that is a country that as a whole suffers from some rather deep totemic problems regarding God, sexuality, and self-identity. With all the church bombings, mosque bombings, several lost battles with India, the crime of eonocide, having wiped out over a million and half Bangladeshis,and the rape of Afghanistan, I would think that you would be a very busy man. As for your take on Mich, sounds rather facile. Any decent and professional psychotherapist would not come to such quick un-guided conclusions from a series of letters. But I realize it must be difficult for a Moslem nationalist to live with the cruel fact that he is practicing a jewish art, psychotherapy. Tell me sir, do you have a framed picture of Freud on your office wall, or would it be too disturbing to have a Jew gazing upon your actions.

Hey Hanna, Crawl back under your own rock. You make me loath you. As for Haaretz letting your vile antisemitic words be printed.... Get a life woman or whatever you are and stay out of the Zionists papers! You have no right to even look at them.

Thank you Elie for saying what you did. There are no better words. It is only too bad that Barenboim sees things in such a warped way. He's forgotten who he is.

He pursued his career Hannah and his wife knew of his activities. Barenboim is not posing as a saint and, incidentally, nor was did his wife. There are obviously many aspects of life that are much too complicated for you.

Barenboim's enormously gifted first wife died of multiple sclerosis and would surely have had nothing against the East West Divan orchestra's musical activities. Although this is little-known, Wagner's music was and is appreciated by many Jews. It is sad that Israel cannot yet split the music from the man as this denies its music students a musical experience that should be part of their education. But it will come.

Or should I say Muhammad,you are one sick puppy,but still I love your posts,they are actually amusing, you provide comic relief. Your posts are so over the top,that they become comical.A farcical one show jackass. BTW,I'm a Diamond coated true blue ZIONIST. ZION FOREVER(AND EVER)AND WE ALL SHALL SAY INSHALLAH.

Barenboim tries to sell himself with cheap gimmicks. Not one of the great conductors-even the German ones-do not do what he does. He tries to be more anti semitically provocative than closet anti semites.

He is not a "humanist" When the intifada last few years happened, he was asked to play a concert in memory of Malki Roth a young flutist who was blown up at a Sbarro Pizza restaurant -for the benefit of terror victims. He declined. This "Israeli humanist" also refused to condemn suicide bombers when he presented a program on "music" for BBC worldwide last year. He just promoted his misguided political dirt.Barenboim is a ruined talent. A moral and intellectual Untermensch. "Humanist"? That is a joke.He does not even respect Holocaust survivors.Just a cheap publicist for himself.

for Ovadiah, but Israli's rules for immigration,and for the building of a jewish democracy are also rules for purification,aren't it?

Another Jewish jerk who sees himself as above the fray; he obviously revels in his fame and answers to the secular god-no need to be concerned with anything like his "people" and what they've suffered. Just because he waves the baton in good time and can play some white and black notes on a large wooden box makes him better than the common Israeli who has to suffer from terror and murder. But under adolf his kind of snob burned as readily as the common shop keeper or the yeshiva student with sidelocks.

Barenboim has and God willing, will continue to give joy and pleasure to millions. His talent, his moderate and humanist views seem to me to be the only way forward. His philosophy of peaceful co-existence through music can only bring us further along the road to peace. Good luck and thanks to you, Daniel for your wonderful music

His music may be good but he lacks minimal analytic intelligence. Below average OR Moron I am unsure

psychomatic illnesses based on few scribled posts to a forum (In Haaretz) were many authors appear to make very stupid and impulssive statements. How would you diagnose the hate filled paosts written by Hannah, or over critical postes by Natallie Durson. Forget about Clickfool. Thats a simple case. its inclooded in the last for letters of his "pen name"

Barenboim is ecstatic that "Hitler will turn in his grave."Actually, plaing the music of Wagner, the Nazi, will make a million children killed by the Nazis turn in their graves.

I am perplexed by your misplaced worship of genius. No one disputes the overwhelming genius of the Unibomber. However,would you let him have a key to your mother's house. To me, Wagner's music is more honored silenced than heard.

As a practicing clinical psychologist, I found your aggresion packed outburst to be the direct result of sexual conflict related to early development.Most typical cases can resove with prolonged therpy and possible psychotropic medications. Needless to say,failure to receive treatment can result in progressive psychosomatic illness.

This joint orchestra is more unique than at first sight. While European Jews have long been involved in orchestral music, the Arab world has tended to shun Western music.

He is helping humanity by teaching Palestinians that there is another way. Long may he prosper.

You don't have to be in love with the goose to love pâté de foie gras. And you don't have to be in love with Wagner's anti-Semitism to love his music. Very few of us are made of unalloyed good or evil -- in different proportions, we all have a bit of both G-d and the devil in each of us. So it was with Wagner. Let us enjoy the genius of his music, whilst rejecting the bitterness of his words.

Do you feel the same loathing for other people or nations when their behavior goes against your sense of morals or is this revulsion of yours exclusively directed to the greedy, thieving, murdering Zionist squatters? I'm certainly not preaching to you and please don't be offended but my thing is you sometime show a lack of moderation and restraint and sound more like a hateful bigot and a bit of a bully with a bad case of PMS attempting at all costs to humiliate her perceived foes on the talkback threads. Less is more! With love, Michel

For his considerable talents and illustrious musical career he deserves admiration (though he is hardly unique in that regard). For his Divan Orchestra and his efforts to bring music to Palestinian children he deserves an award. For his insistence on promoting the music of a mediocre antisemitic composer in Israel he deserves nothing but contempt, but that's between him and his conscience. And for his using his world renown and his questionable status as an Israeli to rehash and spread the politics and revisionist history of his old buddy Edward Said, he deserves a slap in the face. As to this latest pronouncement about Hitler and Wagner, he deserves to have his head examined. It's simply bizzare.

Barenboim is no intellectual. If he had really studied Wagner, both his writings and his music, he would know that Wagner's music theory, and its implementation in his musical compositions, is that the "ersatz Jewish infection of German arts must be exorcised" by music that has stirring volkish themes and libretos comprising Norse mythology. (The swastika was known as "Thor's Hammer" in German circles). The *performance* of Wagner's music is itself one of the ultimate cultural anti-semitic acts that there can be, as defined theoretically by Wagner himself. Read "Music and the Jews" a 40-page essay by Wagner. Barenboim is riding a cheap, un-considered sensationalist wave. No thinker, and no leader he.

it is unfair to 'zionists' to call barnboim one of them..only your beloved left would claim him as theirs....another'useful idiot'!

Mr. Barenboim seems to think that, when the objects of Hitler's greatest contempt pay homage to Hitler's most admired composer, they are somehow sticking it to Hitler. He is wrong. He is simply confirming the Nazis' belief that even the smallest bugs must surely agree with them and confirm their views. But, at this point in time, there is little surprise in Mr. Barenboim's actions. He has by now proven himself a simpleton -- and the most delightfully infuriating kind, the arrogant simpleton who will talk about everything except to consider his own actions. No, what is truly offensive is those who now wish to censor those who dare criticize Mr. Barenboim. Sorry, Daniel #10 -- that just won't fly.

Since this orchestra was founded to promote peace between the Jews and Arabs of Palestine I find it very strange to choose the music of a Jewish hater to play. Furthermore I would have expected the Arab members of this orchestra to refuse playing Wagner more then the Jewish members. There are many Jews who still live with the pain of the holocaust and find it hurtful to hear Wagner and if it is played by Arabs that would be counter productive for peace building with these Jews.

Do you feel the same loathing for other peoples or nations when their behavior goes against your sense of morals or is this obsession of yours exclusively directed to the greedy, thieving, murdering Zionist squatters? I'm certainly not preaching to you and please don't be offended but my thing is you sometime show a lack of moderation and restraint and sound more like a hateful bigot and a bit of a bully with real bad PMS attempting at all costs to humiliate her perceived foes on the talkback threads. With love, Michel

For expressing in an almost Haiku poetic form,(in five verses), the unfortunate Hannah.

Hannah firstly, look up a dictionary, (it's a book of definitions)and check the word loathing.You'll find the word hate in there. Also, and I quote,"Contrary to assertions by self -seeking members of her family in the film Hilary and Jackie, he (Barenboim) provided exemplary care for his wife until her death in 1987". Jacqueline Du Pre gave up perforforming in 1973 after contracting Multiple Sclerosis. No doubt you think this is some form of disease contracted by touching a Jew. Hannah you know little about Jews, less about life since you never seem to work.Your mission along with the other usual suspects is surely to destroy a blog primarily aimed at the Jewish point of view. In this your success rate is high. You're not dangerous, you're sneaky and your knowledge is limited to the place where you conjure up your nightmare scenarios of a world run by Jews. Next time you turn over the rock, look closer. It's your own reflection.

I read there is a nightclub in Lebanon that was built over what used to be a Palestinian refugee camp and the tables look like coffins. Playing Wagner over the coffins of the Jews killed in the concentration camps. What a way not to have fun.

Every few years some hochmologue comes along and insists on showing everyone how enlightened we all are by play Wagner. If anything, the SOB Hitler would be laughing right now

Change the words in the Opera. Like turn DIE NIBERLUNGEN into DIE NEBBISHZUNGEN. Give all the characters names like Moishe, Abdul, and Karim. Now that would make even Wagner 'turn in his grave.' Even I would pay to see that!

As usual, your opinions are 180 degrees from the truth. Daniel Barenboim has behaved as a complete asshol- in his life, and his music is no saving grace for his lost soul! Why should I be surprised that lost-soul zionists claim him as their own?

I'm not hateful. When I speak of so-called Israel, hate is the furthest thing from my heart or mind. I feel a sort of loathing, as one does when turning over a rock and seeing many vile creatures below. That is not hate. That is loathing. When I read various zionist posters here, I don't feel hate. Disgust and comtempt are more appropriate adverbs. However, back to Barenboim: it seems clear to me that you know nothing about how he deserted his talented wife suffering and dying of MS in London while he pursued both his pecker and ego in the zionist-sponsored concert halls of the world? Why not try some research before displaying your ignorance on these threads?

Hitler was the extremely aggressive reckless sick guy. He took a lesson from previous tyrants. The regime played with the intellectual weakness of the almost modern German man. The German people resisted, but at the end they were overwhelmed by the propaganda and secret oppression. The Jewish people and the other victims of WWII paid a heavy price. It is a past. All Jewish people must resist the new chauvinist propaganda, which pitted the French and Germans against each other in 1914, or the Russians and Germans in 1942. We have no justification to continue the hostility against all Palestinians. Unfortunately an inept leadership on both sides can not allow the people to get out of the wars. The major responsibility lies on the conscience of the barbarian Palestinian, Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah,Syrian, Iranian and Russian leaders who have been and are preventing the Palestinians from entering a compromise with Israel.

You may discuss his political views, you may challenge his desire to play Wagner. But no one has the right to stultify his achievement by bringing young Arabs and Jews together to play music. An orchestra is a highly sensitive organism, if people are not really working together it cannot function. And Barenboim proved that it can, that Jews and Arabs can work together to produce wonderful music. No one can take this accomplishment away from him.

Hannah, you are an opiniated but very dumb bitch. Why the hate? Shut up just for once and start to show us some humanity. With love, Michel

He is an idiot. Seems like having a talent in one area restricts talent in others.

Dearest Hannah, Please tell us your story. Was your family hurt? Have you suffered personal losses? Where do you live now, and before? Are you Muslim, Christian, Atheist? Are you young, old? Do you want to be calm or angry for the rest of your life? Best wishes, Empathy for Palestinian PS The real healing can come only from a few decent Palestinian leaders.

things like that are kind of funny. What about a big Synagoge on top of the "Wolfsschanze" or the "Obersalzberg" or whereever the little Gröfaz-asshole used to spend his time. But better than symbols like this would be a much bigger jewish community in Germany. Complete with dreadlocks and this black thing on the heads. (sorry, I do not know to much about the jewish world. Just saw it ) That would not only "turn him in his grave" - that would make him really lose.

I think in the name of Art and so called peace Barenboim should maybe make a concert in Auschwitz with a kind of Opera with the musique of Wagner and words from Hitlers mein Kampf. I think frankly that some artist shouldn't go so far as Wagner was the revelator of Hitler and that we jews havn't finished with this terrible ideology. Slowly at the tunes of Barenboims friend Wagner the extrem right wings are waking up all over the world.

He could not turn in his grave as he never had one.

I repeat: Barenboim is so talented. Why can't he do things to help the Jews and Jewish culture? Europe could use a proud Jew in the public sphere, who works to represent the Jews' interests. This project is pallatable to a European audience, but does nothing to help the Jews. It shows that the Jews want peace, but nobody cares about this in the German government. This is why they release cold-blooded terrorists from their jails and allow business to flourish between the new Hitlerian state (Iran) and New Germany.

Every ego-aggrandizing Boinbaum event might also make his prematurely dead and cello-playing wife turn in her grave. Oh, such riff-raff you zionists call as your own.

I'm not sure if Wagner would be as dismayed as all of the Jews who were marched to their deaths with Wagner's works ringing in their ears.