Bar-Ilan to order professor to explain research behind blood libel book

The Middle Ages were a time of all sorts of superstitions. Christians committed many vicious acts in the name of their religion and I am sure that Muslims did as well. So it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Jews did too (and they would be no more blameworthy than Christians if they did), although I don't know enough about the period to be able to take a view one way or the other.

This is quite bizarre. Usually, radical findings are debated in academe before being published. Why the heck did Professor Toaff not do this?

I imagine that the author should have his book published in Farsi and Arabic. I'm sure it will have great success.

You say "The reality is that historical "jewish blood libel" is not representative of Judaica as a whole (not like `chosen protocollism" for example) but it did EXIST..." Upon what evidence are you making that claim? The "confessions" of people who would say ANYTHING to stop being tortured? The "confessions" of people who would say ANYTHING to stop the pain? The "confessions" of people who would say ANYTHING to save their child's life? Ariel Toaff is out of touch with reality if he believes 1 word of those so-called "confessions", and so are you. Jews are no better or worse than any other group of people, as individuals. As a group they came up with a moral code that was unprecedented, and is the basis for the moral teachings of both Christianity and Islam. Some of the commenters here have said Ariel Toaff should have the right to write what he wants.(And some of you have think what he wrote is "the truth") Then the Danish newspapers had the right to publish those cartoons.

"I have just read the book and if you all ever bother to do so (which I doubt) you`ll be ashamed of yourselves." I'm not at all surprised. Probably one of those rather careful, not especially dramatic excursions through some aspect of the medieval world. Maybe some b/w photos of grimy old engravings. However, no fear about most of the posters ever feeling ashamed of themselves. They won't read the book in the first place, and if they do, they won't get past page twenty. It'd be nice if it ever comes out in English, though. It sounds mildly interesting.

Laughing out loud. So many people who are so sure of exactly what is actually in this book -- which so far has seen only one limited printing, and that in Italian. I'm jealous. So many readers of Italian on this site. So many that apparently were aware of this book a week ago, placed their order, and have already read it. Not to mention being intimately familiar with medieval Italian Jewish culture and so able to comment intelligently. Truly, I am in the company of scholars...

Thank you for calling me an idiot. Something about Israel-supporters -- so many of them feel entitled to lead off their posts with gratuitious insults. Is it intended to substitute for the lack of actual logical substance in their posts, or is it a reflection of their motives for supporting Israel in the first place? Anyway, speaking of idiots...First, the author of the 'accusation' (such as it is) happens to be Jewish, not gentile. Second, unless I missed something, no one accused anyone of drinking blood -- oh, except other Jews slandering Christians on this thread. Forgot about those. Finally, the man appears to be an expert on medieval Italian Jewry, and if he says a lot of their rituals involved dried blood and such, I'm inclined to believe him. Whatever you may do or believe is quite irrelevant. And thank you -- again -- for calling me an idiot. I would respond in kind, but sadly, I don't have any blanket derogatory beliefs concerning Jews. Just you.

At least the Inquisition carefully read books before condemning them. Certainly a more correct behavior than most of the preceding comments. I have just read the book and if you all ever bother to do so (which I doubt) you'll be ashamed of yourselves.

It is very possible that he is right.Everyone who remembers baruch goldstein crime done in the Purim celebration and the joy which it caused between certain settlers,easily can believe that these kind o rituals existed.It is just racism the believe that the jews are so "pure" that they are incapable to do it.A more realistic view on themselves could just help

PAGAN PRACTISES IN DRINKING THE BLOOD AND EATING THE FLESH OF CHRISTOS !! HIS RESEARCH CAN ONLY BE NONSENSE NO MATTER HOW WELL INTEMTIONED

How clever of you Simon...gee with all of the matzah that Jews eat not only during Passover but throughout the year you Christians better keep having children so we can keep baking matzah. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it Simon? Well just as stupid as your post.....you idiot.

You are a fool...show us proof of the vile statement you made and not some comment from some idiotic iman shouting hatefilled sermons on Fridays from some mosque.

Lutheran Church. They are always looking for idiots in blood libel.

It is obvious from all the posts that: 1. Most of the believers in this BS are westerners/Christians 2. Most of the Arabs/Moslems are horrified that such idiocy is believed. 3. We should no longer call those that believe this BS anti-semites but as suggested by a poster, plain old dumb goys would do.

"" The Talmud would be a good starting point, but then the Talmud states, non Jews-Goyim, do not have human souls."" When and where did you study the Talmud Maureen Ann? Is there an Yeshiva in Bathurst?

This toaf monster is a bit confused.Maybe it's the hashish he smoked...the count dracula wasn't Jewish,and didn't bake Matzot.He was a Romanian christian from the Transilvania,fighting against the moslem turks..The Bar-Ilam University should be more careful with the idiots they allow on campus to teach...He delivered a full plate of horsemanure for our enemies to wallow into...Now he is crying that he is being treated like the other monster igal amir...he deserves to be treated like igal amir's victim was...poor is the mother that spawns such beast!

Yigal Amir sacrificed his own reputation. - Toaff is sacrificing the reputation of the innocent people by his libels. From now Toaff is neither Jew, nor Israeli.

First, do not bring in Ben Gurion's name into this sordid, outraeous, libelous affair. Second, one need not be any kind of expert to understand that Toeff is losing it. He basis his theory on the death of a two year old child in north eastern Italy in 1475, whose body was found in a canal. The Church historian, Monseignor Iginio Rogger had the following to say regarding the confessions of several persons of the tiny Jewish community: "many scholars have concurred that the confessions were completely unreliable." "I would not want to be in (Toeff's) shoes, answering for this to historians who have seriously documented this case....The judges used horrible tortures , to the point where the accused pleaded: tell us what you want us to say." Every person who has studied history knows that medieval tortures were horrific and people confessed to being witches and the devil's servants to put an end to their misery. Toeff's own father, former chief rabbi of Rome, has repudiated him.

one more book that will become a best seller and justify all the hatred against jews. But seriously, have you ever witnessed how food is prepared by a jewish family? The meat is washed 7 times in salt to remove all trace of blood before cooking it. Dairy and meat foods are separated. Most jews don't eat meat outside if they follow the dietary rules, only fish. Jewish women are obsessive about it, and all matzot, tons that are eaten at Passover, are certified kosher, U, no blood, not a meat or meat by product in it, just wheat and water unleaved. No taste, no color. Millions eat them at passover and to think about this accusation to add christian or other blood in it, for what by the way? what is the desirable quality in their blood? Totally ridiculous accusation that goes against everything taught and practised every day by jews the world over.

We can't eat non kosher meat, we can't eat certain sea food, we can't eat the meat of pigs, we drain the blood of all meat by putting it in salty water for at least an hour because we can't drink blood and now we are being accused of drinking the blood of the goyim? Talk about eating taref. Wow. Of course you have to be an idiot to believe it. Not necessarily an anti-semite! Just an idiot.

"the Talmud states, non Jews-Goyim, do not have human souls". Maureen Ann If the Talmud does say so, which it does not, then it must be talking about your kind of goyim. You are certainly a poster child to your kind.

The Kahan Commission placed no direct responsibility on the shoulders of either the IDF or Sharon, nor did it accuse them of having any advance knowledge of the events. You simply got it wrong.

I think we're used to Ha'aretz backing antisemites and blood libels. But this is bias and debased journalism on their part. There is NO mention in Ha'aretz if course, that the so-called "confessions" of these Jews in Italy were obtained under the cruellest of torture, after which the Jews were hanged. It's very sad that Ha'aretz is continuing to propagate Jew hatred all over the world... sick people.

Kosher steak is drained of blood.

Really, Vipers are scrawling out of their stinky pit

Most of us normal people knew all the time that this was true. Today Jews are the only people in the world who have never, supposedly, done any wrong at all in all of their history. Remarkable, huh? Why were they expelled from all those countries? For merely being "different"? No. For events like this one.

If, God forbid, Israel is ever destroyed, it won't be the result of the inherent violence of Arab culture, the antisemitism of the Koran, or the Iranian nukes...it will be due to the nuts at Neturei Karta, the exteme leftist academic Jews, the bizarre self-hating Jew who writes a book finding truth in blood-libel. These are the people of baseless hatred with the power to destroy the Third Temple. We must find a way to more effectively ban these people from the community they seek to annihilate; by silence, by forbidding social contact, by not permitting them to enter any synagogue or Jewish institution, by not even selling them food or clothing. They can have their free speech, but we can have our right to not associate with their satanic evil in any fashion.

And they will justify it by saying, ?hey, this is an Israeli scholar, and the son of a rabbi, so it MUST be true?. And as that poster pointed out, when outraged Jewish communities around the world try to combat this he will become a ?truth-telling? martyr for the anti-Semites? cause, no matter how earnest his original intent was. And you don?t think every Arab world political cartoonist who ever drew pictures of hook-nosed Ariel Sharon drinking Arab babies? blood will sitting back and enjoying the show? Toaff is either an utterly na?ve fool or publicity-craving academic, and to do what he?s done in today?s world, with the convergence of far right/left wing/radical Islamist views on Jewish culpability in world affairs, is unforgiveable

You say to "cool down, it's just an article, this was just a fringe element". But it is a big deal because these notorious blood libels were used repeatedly for 900 years to justify the wanton slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Jews, who had to live in constant fear of their Christian neighbors (and, occasionally, Muslim ones). There was even a blood libel in Damascus in the mid 1800's, and one as recently as 1946 in Poland, AFTER most of Poland's 3 million Jews had been exterminated, in which 46 Jews in a village were massacred by local Poles accusing them of the same thing. As one earlier poster put it, it will be used by contemporary anti-Semites such as the David Dukes of the world (Duke regularly speak at places such as the notorious anti-Semitic university in the Ukraine) to further denigrate the Jewish people and, in their newfound alliance with radical Islamists, to promulgate and expand on the most disgusting anbd longest running hatred known to man. And they

"What you feel towards Jews, Israelis feel towards Palestinians (of course, in both cases, you`d deny it in public)..." You were addressing Maureen, but I'm pretty sure you'd lump me in the same bag. I don't know what to tell you that would convince you that none of this has anything to do with anti-semitism. That two of my best friends are Jewish? That both my first girlfriend and the one I had the longest relationship with before getting married were Jewish? That my business associates are Jewish? That I'm probably an eighth (or something) Jewish myself? What? What could possibly get it across to you that my admitted hatred of Israel has NOTHING to do with its religious or ethnic associations? How about if I convert to Judaism first? Can I hate what Israel does then? Really, it's a cheap cop-out -- and I'm talking about you, not me. 'We needn't look at what we've become -- all those critics are just anti-semites.' Well, they're not. The problem is you, not them.

... nor did they stamp on the hosts, or kill Jesus, or all the rest of the bullshit that was told about them. People just project their own vices on some scapegoat. The Jews were forced in that position because of the high quality of the religion. Judaism gives man his dignity and freedom. That is something those who have a sick desire for power, don't like.

"Please don`t wait until Toaff returns. He must retract his book from publication or be fired immediately. Try to minimize the harm this will do to the university and the Jewish People. Time is of the essence !" Time is of the essence? Why? Are his claims true? Why else would they need to be suppressed? Really, this makes the Carter book uproar look positively reasonable. An academic speculation has been made about some events that happened half a millenium ago and that imply nothing at all for the modern world -- but you're bent on changing that. Well, go for it. I can't see what purpose you think it will serve. 'Israeli University fires professor who speculated blood libel had basis in fact.' Yep -- good move. Certainly people will be impressed by the academic freedom prevailing at Bar-Ilan University after THAT.

The scoundrel Toaff has no place in Bar Ilan University. Toaff should be deprived of israel citizenship. Toaff should become "persona non grata" in any civilized country of Europe, America, Australia. Place of Toaff is Ahmadinejad stinky hole.

"Everything you say about Israel/Jews is negative." Actually, I only say negative things about Israel and its supporters -- not about Jews per se. If anything, I find the gentile supporters of Israel even more repellant than the Jewish ones. Anyway, this conflation of opposition to Israel and anti-semitism is one of the most exasperating traits of Israel supporters.

I don't see how this can be proved either way but historically all people have done some pretty odd and indeed barbaric things, justified by all manner of excuses. Who knows what the truth is? As long as it's not happening anywhere in the world today is my only real thought on this issue. Personally I don't think that the flesh of any animal or fish should be eaten either and I'm pretty sure there are people who deserve to be dinner before beautiful and gentle animals. ;-)

"The Talmud would be a good starting point, but then the Talmud states, non Jews-Goyim, do not have human souls. " Not even close. Nice try at piling on some libel in an article about ficticious libel. But, of course you are mistaken... or perhaps just jealous of Jews.

""Well, apparently, Abe, the claims aren`t so "baseless." This history wasn`t written by David Duke, David Irving, or Robert Faurisson, you know, but by the son of a very prominent rabbi, who himself holds Israeli citizenship. This is just too good!"" At last a Jew has revealed our horrible "secret". Jews drink Christian [and Muslim] "kosher" blood.Pasteurized and "kosher"-ized,packed in Longlife tetrapack 1 ltr containers.It is quite expensive-given short and unsecure supply- but very good for you. Want to try some hollingworth? It may cure your chronic prejudices and remove the pain and suffering associated with them.

When the news of the Phalangist massacres in Sabra & Shatilla first broke, it was claimed that IDF had made it possible for the Phalangists to carry out the massacres, the Israeli in Washington, DC placed a full page ad in the Washington Post denying the any IDF involvement. It was entitled, drum roll please, "Blood Libel." The Kahana Commission investigating Sabra and Shatilla did indeed confirm the IDF's role in the massacres and laid the responsibility on the sholders of then Defense Minister Ariel Sharon. Moral of the story? Bring the evidence forward, have competent investigators properly and thoroughly examaine it and accept the decision one way or the other.

Also william, I highly suspect that if you ever found yourself on the receiving end of Tali's candy you might also find yourself singing a different tune, and I assure you it won't be Halleluja!

Are they Christian bats or Muslim bats? Obviously, you're missing the point entirely.

Interesting reply.I think you've made a name for yourself here.After all some one has to be unemotional.Where would Kirk be without Spock? Problem is you are not unemotional.You are just unemotional when it comes to your own people, almost clinical. And that even when you say even when you comment that the arabs have enough emotion themselves. Human beings are emotional if they care. In this Cipora is right.Great doctors are driven by emotion as do great anything. You are greatly emotional when it comes to your own plan and vision. I just feel,oops sorry bad word,that you lean way to far on the other side.You may very well have good ideas but your comments are irresponsible in the face of what Israel has to deal with.

Hello Cipora Nevermind Tosefta(you must have seen my amusing one to him eh?) Not all that important.Wonder if you read about the News Flash? Well, here it is:First nighttime Arrow missiles defence test successfull. In face of Iran's effort to obtain nuclear weapons,the Israeli Air Force successfully conducted its 15th test of the Arrow missile defence system tonight--Sunday night. The officials said the Arrow was capable of intercepting Iranian nuclear missiles. The article is longer of course,but if you haven't read about it this is for starters...

"The claim only acquires importance if one subscribes to a Black/White view of the universe -- either for or against Jews. I don`t..." -But Colin, every single thing you say about Israel/Jews is negative. If you believe that most things are indeed gray (other than myself, I am perfect;)), why is that? I totally agree with you, about grayness. I was once very much in love with a settler who hated Arabs. We, human beings, are complex material. Outside of St. Marylin, and St. Maureen Ann, all of us have faults, even Palestinians...

"the Talmud states, non Jews-Goyim, do not have human souls." We also have the valley of the righteous among gentiles, with tens of thousands of trees in it. We are very grateful to the tiny few and brave souls who helped us in our hour of need. I agree with you that many Israelis hate Arabs; or not hate them, but see them as a lower race of human beings. I am not one to judge that. At the end of the day, most people are very hateful (this forum proves THAT if nothing else) - your hatred of everything Jewish, from the Talmud to the State of Israel is the same material, just clothed in leftist anti-American speak. There is always a justification to hate people ("they" are rich, "they" oppress, etc.) If you want to figure out, why it is that Israelis are so intolerant towards the Muslims, look at your own heart. What you feel towards Jews, Israelis feel towards Palestinians (of course, in both cases, you'd deny it in public)...

To tell Ariel Toiaf that he is a weird idiot...

"There are all types of fish in the ocean.. Just imagine, if all the Jews were paranoids and emotionalists, who would have guided the herd towards establishing a state and maintaining it?" - Tosefta (~_~) "But then we can rely on your good judgement and great knowledge can we not?" - Kath' "You are by no means the sheppard, nor even the herd." - Bird from Outerspace I hope both of you can see that the shepherd referred to in my post was non other than David Ben-Gurion z"l. In suggesting that "Haaretz is expecting non-experts on this forum to offer opinions on this matter", and that this was ridiculous, I did not count myself among the experts. I was hoping that such an article would be accompanied by some text of the alleged "liturgy" so that it would be possible for a reader to have a real sense of what "proof" is involved. At least you can thank me for taking the trouble to find more about this issue, such as the fact that Toaff seems to be retreating.

I'm amazed how you can react to an academic research on a hypothetical fringe social ritual that deserves no more than what Haaretz has put for it: An article. You take it out of context to claim "self-hate anti-semitism"(sic!) and jump to bash on others. Thanks for the laugh, but come on guys, don't try to justify or deny what is being investigated as a potential, (again) fringe, incident in history. I'll give you something else to chew on: Some Lebanese mums will wash female newborns in Bat blood to make sure they don't... grow hair. Now turn off the lights, get silent, and hear... BOOH!

To Bar Ilan - Please don't wait until Toaff returns. He must retract his book from publication or be fired immediately. Try to minimize the harm this will do to the university and the Jewish People. Time is of the essence !

Obviously confessions made under torture are highly suspect; people often confess to anything to stop the torture. However, this does not in and of itself prove that all confessions made under torture are invalid - just that they are suspect.

Can someone please comment on the ciucuimcision ritual called Masitse Ba Peh ? Could this not be where this all originated ?

KUDOS!

Joshua As I was saying on my headline:Why is it when I think of a response,I find some one else has already beaten me to it? But I am glad you did. Although I thought about it straight away,the fact remains coming from a Jew,much less from A Rabi? Disgusting..............................

My point is that I DON'T CARE even if it were true. It won't make me like or dislike Jews one bit if this was true or if they had indeed killed Jesus. Who cares? I care about what Zionists and Israel are doing TODAY.

His irrefutable truth are cartoons. Also a number of Iranian TV Shows for kids. Like the Hansel and Gretel story.

Yeah, irrefutable cartoons. LMAO!!

How does an Israeli University accept a "professor"without screening him first for mental disease?...This toaf character(?)is harming not only the State,but all the Jews abroad...giving to our enemies a full plate of horsemanure,for them to spread around...He should be hanged,together with the ones that printed his masterpiece

Myth, legend or fact. I am sure Professor Ariel Toaff will have many documented incidents, spanning the centuries, to back his argument/explanation of his research into Jewish ritual, human sacrifice. The Talmud would be a good starting point, but then the Talmud states, non Jews-Goyim, do not have human souls. Those calling for war today, have no trouble spilling the blood of the innocent onto the ground-mass murder, extrajudicial execution, assassination...while assuming it is their God given right to do so!!

You are by no means the sheppard, nor even the herd. You are most certainly not a truth teller. Truth tellers are skeptics and know that their ability to seek the truth is limited. You confuse morality and emotionalism. Without empathy there can be no morality; and without morality there is no basis for truth. That is the difference between a doctor who practices medicine according to moral principles and one who practices medicine for his own selfish ends.

Hey Mexi! You took the words out of my mouth. I hope this foolish man does not validate this trashy book/piece,because we have enough problems and no further ones necessary. It is almost like opening "pandora's box"... The minute I read this article I said WOW,now just wait and watch how the "Protocols"will resurface again.The fool,A Rabi? not in any ones imagination...

So well put Walid. Every group of people has its own skeletons. If the Jews have theirs, it makes them no more sinful than ALL.

The essence of this argument is that killing is NOT in the Jewish culture.We dont bring up children, like others do and did that you have to kill others. It is abhorent to any Jew, makes me shudder at the thought of it. If it was true it would have filtered down in some way, in literature or otherwise.

Dear Tosefta (****) (* _ *) HI,HI! The above is myself,though much more beautiful. What do you expect from the puny brained lot you see here.(yours truly included)? You are quite right in assuming it is beyond our comprehension;not having the expertise to understand the subject,so arcane for mere mortals like us? But then we can rely on your good judgement and great knowledge can we not? You are here to educate us,and with much appreciation I bow to your wisdom. What is more, I am not being facetious,really. I only wanted to thank you and emulate what you sent me a several forums ago when I called you A "Man"?And you drew something resembling my above effort,in order to guess regarding your gender. Your memory is not as sharp as mine,but then it is such trivial matter it doesn't merit giving it any special thought.Especially to the "brilliant" Tosefta. Devotedly Yours

Perhaps you should in fact read the full post, with a sober mind this time, to actually catch what the point is re: IT ALL could be true.

So what is needed is for someone to propose a theory which debunks Toaff. I am not a Jewish scholar so I wouldn't know where to start. However, surely there are some teachings somewhere not allowing sacrifice etc. Then say that at the moment of the sacrifice which we are not sure happened the people who did it, if they did, by doing so have renounced their religion. Surely there is something about it religious law, Or something like that. So if someone starts waving this ridiculous book about, someone else can then wave another book about and say yes but. One thing for sure I don't believe that crap, just for those of you sharpening your knives don't get the wrong idea.

"....but stressed that according to the Torah and tradition, the consumption of animal blood was strictly prohibited, not to mention that of humans. " or does it have to be well-done? What a pity.

I doubt if I'll ever read the actual book. I don't read Italian, and if it ever does get translated, either I won't notice or I'll have lost interest. So given that the author appears to have solid academic credentials, and given that he makes the claim about what is his area of expertise, it's probably a reasonable speculation. I doubt if he would have made it if that hadn't been the case. Now, I might disagree with it if I had a chance to read it: I rarely get all the way through a book agreeing with EVERYTHING an author thinks. However, it seems unlikely I'll have the opportunity to do this in this case. So matters will just have to rest there. A few incidents of Jews sacrificing Christian children could well have happened in the Middle Ages. Why not? As I said, the conclusions to be drawn from that are nil. The claim only acquires importance if one subscribes to a Black/White view of the universe -- either for or against Jews. I don't, so no problem there.

Why exactly does it bother you? As a christian, I care about what you are doing TODAY, not what you might have done 2000 years ago. Why does it bother you that your history may have some dark moments? Which culture is entirely free of blemishes? Why don't you focus on the evils of your current actions instead of ancient history?

"while its critical to document the truth it also is important to speak up. Its a shame you can be counted on the first but not on the second." - Ronnie W Let me tell you how it works in reality. People who tend to search and find out what the truth is do not tend to be overly emotional. If you are emotional, you get caught up in your own system and the truth is the one which suffers. There are all types of fish in the ocean. The world needs many types for survival. Just imagine, if all the Jews were paranoids and emotionalists, who would have guided the herd towards establishing a state and maintaining it? Look at our friends the Arabs and understand what over-emotionalism can do to a people.

Look, many of the arguments raise against this research and conclusion is that Judaism doesn't permit Jews to drink blood, etc. BUT, this argument (though with some validity) cannot be accepted upfront, for the simple reason that Jews do not necessarily abide by Biblical precepts, for example: 1. Assumption is that Jews have a relationship with YHWH. WRONG- there are many who are atheists and call the Tanakh a collection of myths, ect. 2.Assumption that Jews await the Messiah...WRONG again- many are not. 3. Assumption that they are separate from Islam..WRONG again- some profess to worship te moon god of Islam. 4. Judaism rejects homosexuality...WRONG again- some are openly gay and accepted. What I am getting at is that posts to the effect drinking blood is NOT Jewish cannot on their own prove that Jews did not drink or use Christian blood. Just a thought...

There is a noticable pathology among supporters of Israel that Jews in general, and Israel in particular, are always right, always good, and always virtuous. Their opponents, on the other hand, are always loathsome, always bestial animals who only practice evil. See for example the almost absurd insistence on the invariably upright conduct of the IDF. Such an outlook is hardly confined to Jewish supporters of Israel -- but it is pretty marked among them. So it's hardly surprising that we would get this uproar if something that so definitely muddies the picture as a suggestion that sacrifice of Christian children actually occurred comes along. Wrecks the whole parade.

"1. "In an interview with the Italian newspaper La Stampa, Toaff responded angrily to his critics, saying, "My research shows...responses, among them ritual murder of Christian children." 2. "In an interview Friday with The Associated Press, Toaff said, `There is no proof that Jews committed such an act.`" " The two statements aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Presumably, any such acts would have been both isolated and committed in complete secrecy. So there wouldn't be proof. At the same time, Professor Toaff may have concluded that such things quite likely did happen. In medieval history, this sort of uncertainty goes with the territory. A lot of the time, one just doesn't know -- and probably never will. It's often a field of more or less well-founded speculation -- not of fact. How palatable the speculations are to the modern reader isn't really the litmus test, though.

Now look. The more important facts can be established. Sacrificing Christian children certainly wasn't normal Jewish practice. Else the hard evidence so many would dearly have liked to have found would have been found. Conversely, no group is exempt from extremist cults which do unfortunate things. Jonestown and Branch Davidian come to mind for Christians, there's al-Qaeda for Muslims, and of course there're some real loonies running around the West Bank these days. So back in the Middle Ages, some deviant Jewish group might well have sacrificed a child. That this could have happened isn't inconceivable -- but it's also not terribly significant. At the moment, some Canadain pig-farmer is on trial for killing and dismembering fifty women. Are we supposed to draw conclusions about all Canadians based on this? Conversely, should we hysterically deny that it happened because of some sort of imagined implication for all Canadians?

"the book sold out in less then a day, every one in Italy bought the book" They'll probably be disappointed -- unless they actaully want to read about medieval Jewish relgious responses to persecution. It doesn't sound like the author's primary concern is either proving or disproving that Christian children were ever sacrificed. It's a possibility. Perhaps at least as signficant as the possibility itself is the almost hysterical reaction of so many to it even being raised. Really, everyone would be better off if it was shown that yes, in 1224 in Sienna, seventeen Jews did indeed sacrifice a Christian child in the aftermath of a particularly ferocious pogrom. So what? The conclusions to be drawn from such a fact would be stunningly insignificant. Then we could all go home.

It's quite possible we'll never know. Vast areas in the Middle Ages are virtually undocumented. For example, we only know about a peasant revolt that apparently swept all of Normandy in the eleventh century or something because of one chance reference in a chronicle. Now set that against the lust to demonize Jewry that possessed much of Christianity in that era. Could some group of Jews or some quasi-Jewish cult have sacrificed a Christian child? Sure -- but what actually happened and what we can find out are two very different things. The event might have occurred, and there would be no evidence, or it might not have occurred but there would be what appeared to be fairly convincing evidence that it had. It's possible that what we come to believe could coincide with the truth -- but it's also quite likely we'll just never find out.

We can't prove that such an incident never occurred. By the same token, we can't prove that it ever did. It is exactly the same as saying 'we can not prove that the Iranian president is or isn't the antichrist, or an alien from space. It is absolutely pointless conjecture. The only possible motivation is to lend creedence to an age-old hateful myth.

I reccommend the reading of the Corriere della Sera , on todays edition, a very inteligent note made by 2 Italian Historians Seems very odd that the blood libel can be revamped ton the XXI Century....but...

The story of Drinking the Blood is used in rehtoric but not necessarily as an actual event to take place. It has a linguistic meaning of squeezing a person to death. Yes Jews hated Christians for the obvious persecution by the later. In cultural Alepo/Syria Ottoman period documents there is a mention of blood libel, and Christian Syrians used to over protect / hide there kids during the passover times. Many kids disappeared in Aleppo - Syaria during passovers and these events were blamed on Jews / blood libel.

Well, well. U just proved A point, I made many moons ago about u. U r an antisemite Ato Z.

chris linthwaite i agree with you that the jews are guilty of all the things the world blames them for.keep up the good work.where would we be without agha linthwaite?

We have always known the truth of this. RAHOWA!

I wish people would be so scared of Jews that they'd leave us alone!

The writer does not quote his book, but only quotes two purported interviews, as follows: 1. "In an interview with the Italian newspaper La Stampa, Toaff responded angrily to his critics, saying, "My research shows that in the Middle Ages, a group of fundamentalist Jews ... came a passion for revenge that in some cases led to responses, among them ritual murder of Christian children." 2. "In an interview Friday with The Associated Press, Toaff said, 'There is no proof that Jews committed such an act.'" Either he is giving inconsistent stories about what he wrote - knowing that anyone who wanted to could check it out and expose him and his career would be ruined - or one of these interviewers (maybe both) is lying about what he said to them. I will go with the latter and assume that the interviwer was lying, unless some Italian-speaker here has actually read his book (not articles about it, but the book itself) and can quote passages to the rest of us.

Intelligent Jews should appreciate what this author is exposing. Those that are against him are the very ones validating ugly myths about Jews and helping stoke the fires against Jews. Books have been written by American authors about Charles Manson and what he did in the States. Americans did not come out in a rage as the Jews are doing here, that whoever wrote these books was an American-hater that was creating a link between all Americans and Manson's helter-skelter groupie. What Manson did was an act by a small obscure group that has nothing to do with Americans. By the same token, something similar could have happened at one point in time by a small group of sicko Jews and if so, it is unfair to be smearing all the Jewish people with this ugly story. Personally, I don't believe the Jews as a people would do such a thing. When you try to snuff out this story, as you are all trying to do here, you are only helping the cause of those that would want it to be true.

I'm still shivering at the tought of what will come to us after Toaff book is published in many lenguages, speciaslly in Farsy, come on, Toaff, will your next book will say that the Procotols are the true?

The problem with certain groups, they don't like to ADMIT they ever did anything wrong. They masquerade behind self-righteous saintly victimhood all the time and the mere thought, much less suggestion, a Jew for instance could ever do such horrible things when historically and in modern times we see humanity is not short of outrages coming from all sectors of societies and religions--and to pretend Jewish history wasn't part of the dark ages in medieval times is a distortion of historical truth and reality. The "chosen people" are human after all. We live in a age of Dahmers and Mansons and God forbid the thought there is a Jew in prison somewhere but we are told to believe the truth will set us free. I don't believe in censorship and Abe Foxman is up to his old tricks again, as we recall with the "Passion of Christ" fiasco. It's best not to protest too much or too loudly.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel //www.google.com/search?hl=en&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org&q=blood+libel&btnG=Search&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org //www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1173&letter=B

Zmogus is not looking to maintain accuracy in his commentaries. He cannot even quote people correctly. His activity on here is evidence of endless fabrication and distortion to fit his fantasylife. I guess in Paris/Vilnius, or Paris or Vilnius, or Paris and Vilnius, life is quite dull and one has to waste the time of day complicating matters through endless weaves of fiction. Otherwise, he would be stumped over the question of which cities he's actually living in and writing from, which seems to be his biggest dilemma.

Considering you're not even sure which city you're in, I guess confusion is a way of life for you. There are many cases of complex, multidimensional reality out there in the world. But there are also times when a simple straight line is the quickest connection. As the old addage goes, Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Then again, I guess it's easy to make things complex when you fictionalize my actual quote, adding language to it that fits your preference. That's called INTERPRETATION and not QUOTING. Sounds like the fool in France needs a writing class.

A group of Rabbis kidnap a Christian child, kill him in a ritual sacrifice, use his blood to bake matzos, and then dump his body in a canal outside a Jewish home. Tell this story to any homicide investigator and he will immediately suspect a member of the child's own family.

All you worried ones, do you seriously think that Toaff's book will lead to racist attacks against Jews worldwide?

You're right, we Jooz really should apologize already. It's time for us to finally 'fess up, so I'll go first: I admit it, we slaughter Christian children every year before Passover to bake our matzos. In our spare time, we like to poison wells, and use our evil genius to invent deadly diseases like AIDS. And yes, we secretly carried out the 9/11 attacks, and then blamed it on that schlemazel, Bin Laden. I'd write more, but I'm late for my weekly chapter meeting of the Global Jewish Conspiracy to Control the World, and I'm supposed to bring the fruit salad. Bwahahahaha!

the book sold out in less then a day, every one in italy bought the book

I believe the Frankists were also a sexual cult. As for the anti-Semites having a field day with this, you can just bet thst they are also having a field day wth President Katsav's indictement for rape. Does that mean that he should not have indicted or that the indictment should have somehow been kept secret?

History not biology or other science dictates that the jews be a little paranoid about these issues. Its not often what they are but the fact that they have been USED as truth against the jewish people in most instances,pogroms,holocaust and now the media. Hate against Israel have been lit with the illusion of the Jewish conspiracy forever and while its critical to document the truth it also is important to speak up. Its a shame you can be counted on the first but not on the second. Whatever it is you have a critical eye on the jewish people.

From what I have read from the article he has simply tried to explain how the blood libel came about. It doesn't matter if you agree what he publishes, in a democracy you can say and publish what you like. What you need to do is come up with some evidence that refutes his research, Screaming that Toaf is a self hating jew bla blah blah doesn't alter the fact that he has published the fact that the Blood libels have a resonance of truth about them. Will someone disprove that this did not happen please? Or is what he published the truth?

Of course, the Jews drank Christian blood, Muhammed was a prophet, father Christmas lives in Lapland and Saudi Arabia is a feminist paradise... You want more fairy tales?

One for being an a self-hating Jew, the other for being an irrespoinsible idiot.

anything for money or celebrity status. shame on him!

As a rule you should always follow the money what better way to make your book a best seller than coming up with such an outrageas subject. Just witness Jimmy Carter with his latest book the money trail leads all the way to the middle east petro Dollars.

Anat, I did not call for a debate but for a discussion to disprove the story if you don't believe it or to prove it if you do. I personally don't believe such a thing could have happened with the knowledge of learned religious people. What I find appalling is not this story being put under the spotlight but the Jewish habit and show of ignorance by hiding one's head in the sand and ridiculing a Jewish myth or whoever tries to shed light on it instead of facing it with facts and disproving it. It has something to do with intellectual maturity.

Walid- Well stated Walid. As you might also note, I have not seen many posts in support of Mr. Teich's perspective. His comments are patently offensive and sophomoric. respectfully, Dov

What is at least as repellant as the use various anti-semitic groups will make of this is the lynch mob chorus rising from most of the respondents here. It's a book by a respected academic, it makes a claim that is presumably well-documented -- and most are condemning the work -- and the author -- without even having read it. If we are to find in any of this a blanket condemnation of Jews, what is being produced on this talk-back column is far more telling than anything that could be in that book.

Shocking, shocking! and coming from an "expert", must have had bad dreams...

Certainly I hope that Toaff is convinced what he claims happened actually did happen; this is going to add fuel to various fires, and it would be a shame if it wasn't even true to begin with. Even if it is true, the question of whether it should have been published is an interesting one. It WILL be used by anti-semitic groups, and it will lend energy to their hate. On the other hand, there is the fairy tale that the Jews, having been victims, are somehow thereby virtuous. Perhaps more people can draw the more appropriate moral: that no group has a monopoly on either good or evil. Finally, there is the claim of truth -- the notion that facts aren't good or bad, but simply facts, and should be exposed. Personally, I hope to have the opportunity to read the book.

Haaretz is expecting non-experts on this forum to offer opinions on this matter. Haaretz, you are ridiculous. In the meantime, Toaff seems to be retracting his allegations. Perhaps it will all end up in his claiming that Jews composed liturgies that expressed desire for revenge, but did not act on them. Well, this will be normal. In fact, even this claim may be not sufficiently founded because it is also possible that the "liturgies" were composed by Jewish converts involved in the libels. Here is an interview Toaff just gave to Associated Press: "In an interview Friday with The Associated Press, Toaff claimed that his work had been partly misunderstood. He said he did not intend to imply that ritual murders had really occurred. "I believe that ritual murders never happened," he said. "There is no proof that Jews committed such an act." But Toaff said the confessions do hold some truth ? as when the accused recount anti-Christian liturgies that were mainly used on Passover, when the celebration of the Israelites' liberation from ancient Egypt became a metaphor for Judaism's hope for redemption from its suffering at the hands of Christians. "These liturgical formulas in Hebrew with a strong anti-Christian tone cannot be projections of the judges who could not know these prayers, which didn't even belong to Italian rites but to the Ashkenazi tradition," he said. Toaff said in the interview that he believes Jewish converts to Christianity spoke about these liturgies and helped spark the "blood libel" accusations."

I think you need to look up the definitions of 'plausible' and convincing.' Since you choose to label me an anti-semite, let me illustrate my point this way. I find it plausible that you might well be a pederast. However, I have to grant that the available evidence is less than convincing. In any case, the third of my points is certainly getting borne out. Intelligent discussion of this claim is going to be impossible.

the jews are guilty of everyting.

antisemitic sites have picked up the story and are having a feast.thanks ratbag.

So what's the big deal. In the first place, in Every possible ethnic/national/cultural grouping ever known to humans, there are excesive types. Consider the Jewish Donmeh (?) of Turkey who practiced every conceivable sexual 'sin' known to humans, including incest. And one would think, wouldn't one, that after what Christians have done to Jews, aren't they entitled to a little blood...just a touch? I'll bet if you search Torah hard enough, you will find a justifying text beneath the surface.

You have used this reference incorrectly. The commandment "you shall not kill" is a loose variation and a mistranslation of the actual thing "Thou shall not murder". The difference is self-defence. If I remember correctly, the famous movie "Ten Commandments" with Charles Heston as Moses, used "you shall not kill" version. Most people seem to be unaware of this fact having learned their history from popular versions. But there is a huge philosophical devide betweeent the two concepts. Think about it.

What's next a rabbi writing an expose that the shoah was a big fat hoax? Why are there so many jerks in the world today? So few Jews stand out to help israel, so many assist our enemies under some disingenuous pretense. I wish self-hating Jews would just convert to some other religion.

the book appears to be against the ashkenazim and not against the italkim or sefaradim - but I fear that all of Jewry will suffer negatively because of Ariel Toaff's expounding this thesis of his in a book

There is no way of proving what any human being(s) did or did not do in the past, until someone invents a time machine. But I have to say that this suggestion strikes me as very unlikely. True, there must have been crazies in the past, for there are crazies today and there is no reason to think that humans have become more evil in recent years. True, the crazies could have included some Jews, for even today some of the crazies are Jews (or at least, claim to be Jews). But none of that makes this story plausible. This article shows clearly the gap between reality and theory in civil rights. Free speech is vital, and no progress can be made in civilization unless the unthinkable can be explored and discussed. Remember Galileo. But when we leave the laboratory, we encounter the real world: this article may or may not be "scholarly", but anti-Semites will love it.

Let's face it, the only way leftwing renegade Jews can gain notoriety and make money is to write sensational lies. The media eats it up and puts them in the limelight, and they sell tons of books. That is why there are so many useless renegade "Jews" running around in Israel and America, making good money smearing Jews, and hanging their own mothers, if necessary, to make a shekel, or better yet, a buck.

i wouldnt give him a job working in any teaching field-he's giving our enemies an excuse to continue the hate-maybe even cause others that were not anti-semetic before to become thus.i would give him a life time job of shovelling manure in a sewage field-definetly not teaching-he has disbarred himself from that profession.

The last of the devine religions is Islam, thus it either cancels the previous revelations or keep them in force.

FOr manmy centuries in Christian Europe Jews were persecuted, forced to live in crowded ghettos, often expelled from their homes in England, France, GErmany, RUssia, Austria, etc and rioted against whther in Crusades, blood libels or pogroms or the Black Plague. YEt they persevered to stay Jewish despite all the pressure, "Jew or Die!" Now he lends credence to the vile anti-semites that rioted against us by saying some did indeed eat blood, something clearly not Kosher at all and forbidden, and also forbidden for "peace with our neighbors" (darkai shalom)

There's a reason tortured confessions are not evidence, people will say anything the torturers want. If we took testimony on the rack as historical evidence we would be forced to conclude that hundreds of thousands of European women in the Middle Ages consorted with the devil, put hexes on children and undermined the church with their witchery.

So possibily there could be a small group Jews who centuries ago took part in some form of human sacrifice. Nothing controversial here. Every group in society in it's history has had fringe minorities that take part in acts that do not represent the rest of their people or culture. If this group did exist they would have nothing to do with main stream Judiasm therefore if they did use blood it was their own ritual and not related to the rest of Judiasm. Secondly acts against human beings that today we consider torture and murder were committed on regular basis for public entertainment through out most of human history. Therefore the author is not saying anything against Jews, even if blood libel type acts were committed by a fringe group centuries ago.

Apparently, if Hollingsworth didn't exist, you would have to invent him. Go ahead and torture yourselves if you want. Some Jews don't give a click about the rest. Actually, this sort of thing sells well in Europe and the ME where Anti-Semitism is alive and well. Stoning would be too good for this greedy bastard.

Your response is little more than saying "well, it could have happened. ANYTHING is possible". Is that really so helpful? Just your mention of that negates your claims that "this is not representative of Judaism" and is no different than claiming the Holocaust is a myth through a purely academic prism. Asking you for proof is futile. The only reason people try to bring up subjects of this nature, under academia, is to build it into a larger hypothesis covering ALL Jews...and is the basis of ALL racism in history. Perhaps you should deal with the present more so than the past. Unless you're unwilling to take on the brutalities of the world that need our attention now.

I am not Jewish, but I agree that the book is worthless from a substance point of view and Anti-Semitic as well. I support speaking out against the book, but some of the responses I have read here have been dissapointing. Especially this one: Title: To the "palestinian" Name: Tali City: Jerusalem State: Israel "irrefutable proofs"...my a... if settlers in Hebron had been doing drinking your blood, we wouldn`t have you on our backs right now -- you would have been a thing of the past. So shut up and spare us your "Palestinian" idiocies. No wonder your society is the most screwed up on the planet. Keep at it and you`ll solve our problem.

How you try to just dismiss the "blood libels" by stating that it's against the bible, not kosher or if this is not enough, the all standby "he's anti-semetic". Is killing innocent Palestinian children in the bible? Are the deaths of pregant women at check points in the bible? Are the confesions under torture that the IDF gets reliable? Yourself serving defense and denials does not fool anyone but yourselves. The ugly deeds that you carry out today are much worse then what happened centuries ago, but then you do deny the current evil acts that you're carrying out today.

Well, I don't know, but I think Tali called Palestinian to task for the baseless accussations he presented here. Is that so wrong? You expect candy and sunshine for a poster who repeatly condemns Israel's right to exist, in ANY part of the region, who supports suicide bombers, and now adds an unsupported blood-libel which Arabs worldwide truly believe (along with other doozies that are too long to mention here). If you think that Palestinian should NOT be responded to with atleast some frustration and assertion, then you might as well support him. I wonder if your ilk in London would have talked as cheery with the 7/7 bombers - perhaps even invited them for a spot of tea to talk over differences. No wonder why East London is breeding Islamic militants faster than rabbits.

Watching Neutrei Karta members hugging Ahmandinejad was bad enough now we have to read this? We are lucky Mel Brooks made Blazing Saddles instead of the Life of Brian otherwise we would really be in shtook (trouble).

Your insult against communion is worse than any 'blood libel'. Christians do not practice cannabilism... We do not drink blood nor eat flesh of Jesus...He is risen and ascended. There is nothing Christian about cannabalism.

It is remarkable how you reacted to my post, as opposed to the post I was reacting to. Presumably you would agree with the "palestinian's" statement that settlers in Hebron drink his children's blood. Well, what can I say. Skandar, actually I'm rooting for you because you're helping our enemies' endless quest to self-destruction by dysfunctionalism and bottomless national stupidity. Keep it up, yourself! Edithmann, are you angry because someone is 'forcing' you to read Ha'aretz? Those evil Israeli bullies conspiring to force silly Israeli articles down the throat of innocent readers and "activists"?

Untill now I thought you are just anti-Israeli, now I know you are an antisemite. The way you reacted so happily about this piece of news shows you are a pure old fashioned antisemite. I can compare your reaction with Colin Wright's low-keyed reaction. He is also an Israel criticizer but here the comparison between you two ends! Your motives seem to be much darker!!!

The book is unnecessary and it adds nothing to the debate. The substance of the book and the way it was done amounts to Anti-Semitism, sadly. What reason could he possibly have for doing what he is doing? Is his work benefitting history? No. Is his work advancing knowledge? Not really; the allegation is, at best, wild, inflamatory and pointless speculation that has turned this book into a fiction book that makes up stories to villify Jews.

Whether true or not, the research holds no good omen... It is bound to make even the most ardent Christian supporter of Israel (and Jews in general) hesitate some. But, no true Christian will attack Jews. It has made me pause somewhat. Nonetheless, no matter how long the pause, this remains true: JESUS (Yeshua) is still a Jew. It's a pity that Jews have never rallied around this figure (even to passionately acknowledge HIM as theirs)- for the JESUS connection is, I believe, greater than any 'blood ritual', real or not.

- Either HAARETZ supports TOAFF's libel (and should share the responsibility), - or HAARETZ condemns it (and should apologize for ambigous attitude). BE CLEAR IN THIS CASE, HAARETZ. In the Toaff's case silence is SHAMEFUL.

"To return to the point, I find the blood libel story plausible, the evidence as offered in the article less than convincing, and the odds that all this will ever get looked at fairly nil." If the evidence is less than convincing, why do you then find the story "plausible"? Is it because, well, you never liked Jews too much. Your posts suggest an aversion to Jews; which is quite alright, since we have an aversion to antisemites. So no harm.

Freedom of research and looking further into the past for possible information is legitimate, B U T research should be directed by specific goal. ? WHAT WAS THE GOAL?! Prof. Rabbi Ariel Toaff is declared as a historian, international expert on Italian Jewry whose research took place within with Bar Ilan University. Whatever research including his direction/ goal, etc are usually agreed upon prior to the beginning and later also discussed by a by University panel and considered prior to possible publication. ? How could such a booklet been prepared/ published without knowledge/ guidance and acceptance by his University Bar Ilan. ? Why was this publication "Pasque di Sangue" not published by Toaff?s alma mater? - Had this normal procedure been used it most probably would have prevented the acclamation of a ?scientific publication,? which by the author?s own words to Associated Press, "There is no proof that Jews committed such an act?." Without going into the relevancy to Toaff?s allegation prior researches in a specific case brought to light that non of the so called documentary scripts / testimonies from the time of happening is to be considered authentic and true owing to ?confessions extracted under torture? as acknowldged up to now by Christian and Jewish researches. Why was this ?n o n n e w s? published on the front page and quie bonner from it! - Bar Ilan University together with a non Israeli University should establish a panel to judge the contents of Prof. Toaff?s publication and consider any reaction needed as per their independent conclusion to prevent this publication becoming an eventual document.!

As a convert to Judaism over 8 years ago, reading that a Rabbi's son is printing this trafe is just ridiculous. Honestly, I have met many sons of Rabbis and most of them seemed to hate being a Jew. I'm also a historian and it ticks me off when anyone that writes something shocking can get a book published.

"howfun the jews are alarmed". YOU should be alarmed, it wasn't Jewish blood that was allegedly used in these rituals, for once....

The ability of man to justify the evil he does is infinite. Read your Bible! in Leviticus 19:34: "But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God." Also in 24:22 "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well as for the stranger, as for one of your own country." See how much some Israelis love the Pals, and how Israel applies the law in Judea and Samaria. Of course our minds provide ample justification to keep our conscious clear.

This kind of generalization, is what, quite frankly is referred to as antisemitism. What is the typical Arab reaction? Or the typical Christian reaction? Whoever you are, get a life. Antisemites are a dated commodity, no more in fashion. Buy a new suit, yours is 60 years old.

We should always remember how people can behave under extreme circumstances: Masada, Jonestown, Japanese suicide pilots. Also during the First Crusade many Rhineland Jews killed their children and then committed suicide to avoid death at the hands of the Crusaders.

"Two-dimensional label sometimes fits multidimensional reality"??? Only its two-dimensional projections and the adequate states-of-mind. Bravo, CHGODMK.

The famous passage in Pirkei Avot says "chachamim, hizaharu bedivreichem," and finishes "venimtza shem shamayim mitchallel". Supposedly wise men, be very careful what you say publicly, because people can misunderstand and distort and jump to wrong conclusions, with the end result being disastrous for the Jewish people. How absolutely totally stupid at this time in our history for this so-called scholar to be so divorced from reality in his public behaviour - whatever he might privately think.

Red lines can be crossed if the circumstances are right. There was a sad case of a rabbi in NJ convicted of murdering his wife because of another woman.

Exactly my point. They were miscreants and should be seen as such.

In my last talkback, I meant it for # 96, not # 92. My apologies.

I once met a beautiful girl for whom I had no feelings. But I was so tormented by her beauty that in a moment of extreme sexual torture I confessed that I loved her. My 'confession' had the desired results, but even she was not so stupid as to beleive them.

A fact can be used for ant-semetic purposes. See the neo-nazi rantings and ravings about Andy Fastow's involvement in the Enron scandal.

This is not journalism; this is the resurgence of Nazi propeganda. We might as well be discussing the merits of UFO stories.

I agree but we should bear in mind how many clergymen of different faiths have been caught stealing, molesting children, and committing adultery.

I hope Toaff's Israeli visa is revoked and he is stopped at the airport and sent back to Italy. What would the professor confess under torture? He has abused his authority. His claim that the judges could not have known Ashkenazi rites sounds as though he is claiming that Catholics never to this point tortured Ashkenazi Jews, and had no such records from which to borrow. Fundamentalist Jews would NEVER do such a thing as claimed. It is a sick attempt to make fundamentalism in Judaism look worse than in Islam!!!

So what's new? Toaff and Haaretz must love each other. Pity the innocent Jews who will suffer from this nonsense.

Iranian Hitler says this is one Jewish book for his archives along with Jimmy Carter, and David Irving bestsellers. Delegitimizing Judaism is very profitable. Judaism is not allowed to produce any miscreants, unlike the millions produced by other traditions that claim to replace Judaism. This italian writer is fool trying to justify the pogroms and blood libels that murdered and oppressed millions of Jews. What some people will do for money and fame.

In recent years, there have been several instances in which settlers have poisoned Palestinian wells. Such incidents in the Middle Ages might also have happened and given rise to that other famous libel, that Jews poison community wells. Why should not similar blood incidents have established the blood libel?

A more direct example of what you are talking about is the experience many Westerners had when interned under very unpleasant conditions by the Japanese in World War Two. People often find their moral convictions aren't nearly as steadfast as they would have liked them to have been. To return to the point, I find the blood libel story plausible, the evidence as offered in the article less than convincing, and the odds that all this will ever get looked at fairly nil.

"Of course, some of us week-end historians and history-buffs have always known of the existence of such events," No historian would state "of course...[we've] always known" without offering some support. You know, some citation, primary resource, validated quote. You got something like that?

I do know, though not from direct personal experience, that trauma can lead individuals and communities to depraved behavior. I may be comfy, but I am far from insulated. I rather agree with your general premise. But I do still think that the behavior characterized in these stories would have to cross an extraordinary number of red lines. Jewish teachings are quite set against: kidnapping children, murder, drinking any kind of blood, putting foreign ingredients into food that will be eaten by many. If such atrocities were carried out by members of a religious Jewish community, it seems that they would occur outside the structured ritualistic behavior ascociated with organized worship and festivals. You know, Crazy Yidden drinking blood at secret possum worshipers meeting or something; this, as opposed to baking it in to the community's Matzoh.

Then is it an anti-Semitic myth or is it based on fact? If fact, how can it be anti-Semitic?

More of the same by some members of Bar-Ilan University.Aything to crave notoriety,what a cretin! Throw this dusgusting man out,and save the reputation(if you have any)of this august establishment.

Are you angry because you were 'forced' to steal Palestinian land? Or are you angry that they're still holding on?

Yes, I know, the Pals psyche has been a topic of reseach and conferences, but the violence is real! This is where psychology gets ridiculous. Maybe the jewish psyche is interesting as well? Good luck!

That means the Bush Administration is not in its right mind. But that was obvious from day one.

NOBODY cares about this detail in the middle-age, what matters more is the policy of the state of Israel today. Btw, Israel and jews are not the same, helas, like Islam and fundamentalists are different. Jews and some practices many centuries ago, whether they did happen or not, will not have been the same either. That such practices did not justify massacres is selfexplaining, but see what is happening today, innocent Iraqis etc are killed every day, maybe not yet 6 millions but not far away.

Even if a few so-called Jews did commit a few murders in Europe's backward age, that is no excuse for the thousands of murders committed by so-called Christians of the time. 'So-called' because no one following Jewish or Christian law properly would murder at all.

Maybe. My own immediate reaction to this was that (a ) the claim sounds dubious, (b ) it would be of limited significance, and (c ) it's going to be hard ever to find out for sure. The howling and screeching will make any serious examination of the issue almost impossible. It's going to be reminiscent of what goes on with genetic differences bwtween Blacks and Whites.

someone told me he tried to sell some Books coming from the library of the jewish roman comunity to soterbye's, is it true?

for Palestinian #28: I remember a couple of years ago an Israeli patrol got lost and Palestinian mob attacked a police station where those guys were held.I don't remember if it was in Gaza or WBT but I remember a Palestinian guy leaning from window and showing his bloody hands to the mob with a huge smile.The mob was cheering, dancing and happy that they had so prized Israeli blood and the party could begin.That is an irrefutable proof that Palestinians have their own bloody line using Israeli blood, stupid...

THE PROFESSOR SHOULD HAVE CAST HIS RESEARCH NET WIDER!! NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS USUES CONFESSIONS EXTRACTED UNDER TORTURE

If the two-dimensional label fits, and sometimes they do, then it's a perfect match. If the university defends this two-bit peddler of self-hating ideology (ah! another two-dimensional label for you!), then they are as guilty as he for helping to validate an anti-semitic myth.

Toaff is another product of European debauchery trying to get his 14 minutes of fame. Too bad he has to compete with Anna Nicole Smith, a true luminary. Perhaps Toaff can get married to Gilad Atzmon, who recently supported burning of synagogues. Think of the vile offspring they could create

WHAT SOME PEOPLE WILL DO FOR ATTENTION

There is always a grain of truth that fouls the waters of 'political correctness', in this case, the stereotype of "Jewish blood libel". Of course, some of us week-end historians and history-buffs have always known of the existence of such events, but given the sensibility of the issue to judaica the subject has always been marginalized and a taboo' even to bring it up as an issue to be scrutinized under the scholar microscope without one being labeled and anti-semite. In fact the bear mentioning of the the issue of "jewish blood libel" is one of the criteria for labeling someone an anti-semite. The reality is that historical "jewish blood libel" is not representative of Judaica as a whole (not like 'chosen protocollism" for example) but it did EXIST in the extremist jewish fringe and, until such time comes when such matters are allowed to be scrutinized in a most transparent way, what is a local historical aberration will a

bbl, sorry if I'll be guessing now, but all your life you've been living in a comparably well-off circumstances and have no inkling of the circumstances that I (for one) lived in until dissolution of Soviet empire (no judgement: I can only guess what people go through in Africa). The point is that I was astonished to find out that people from the prosperous countries think the atrocities in the "third-world" are related to those peoples rather than the circumstances they find themselves in. To gauge a bit how close you, bbl, a white average Westerner, are from these attrocities, I would suggest you the famous "Prison experiment" staged a while by social anthropologists and psychologists. Now think how much do you know of the circumstances in medieval times. Sorry for taking you as an "average" example. If you're not (and you surely aren't) it wont alter my point though.

It blows my mind that the so-called Jewish University in Israel, Bar-Ilan can keep Prof. Ariel Toaff on its staff.The university cannot attempt to project an image throughout the world that they are a Jewish university, and then allow this putrid anti-semitic diatribe to flow from their academicians. Shame on Bar Ilan. Clean up your ivory tower.

David Irving was not charged with any criminal offense in Britain. Britain has no anti Holocaust Denial laws. In his stupidity and arrogance, Irving sued Deborah Lipstadt for libel and the court quite rightly handed his head back to him. Dr. Toaff needs to make his evidence open to public review, perhaps, by a commission of prominent historians.

"Let`s pass a new law" Making laws as you go (a.k.a on-demand) is very easy; especially if they are directed at one group of people - usually a minority. The USA passed laws that forbade Jews & Blacks from entering some establishments. It was an easy task & had the support of the ruling majority. The question should always be: Do we make laws for the sake of making laws or do we want to employ laws as a way to ensure justice? What goes around comes around, so always stay on the side of justice if you ever want to be judged fairly. You'll never know when you'll be the target of such abusive laws!

"Bar Ilan University should remove this `historian` from its faculty. Toaf should be prosecuted for spreading false accusations that could lead to murder." It is disturbing, to say the least, to see people who live in supposedly modern/western countries promote this type of academic facism as tool to suppress other dissenting opinions. Are you people looking for a bunch of YES men that would be terrified at the notion of "telling the king that he's naked" ??? Where would science be today if it was ruled by this MacArthism mentality? Has freedom of speech and freedom of thought lost their meaning in your world? Nothing like verifiable facts to dispute any claim. Does the famous saying "The only thing we should fear is fear itself" mean anything to you?

"I wanted to see, how the Jews felt in this climate of hatred" motivated historian Toaff to research, how a small persecuted Jewish community in Italy in the Middle Ages "turned insane" and mixed Christian blood in their Pesach-matzos as some kind of a revenge. Psychologically this kind of behaviour is fully possible, when mentally and physically tormented and abused persons crack up and have to live in endless abnormality. This takes place in marriages, where the spouse is a psychopath or an alcoholic for example. Toaff's book is a good wake-up-call to the Israelis and the rest of the world of what just may currently be "cooking" in Gaza/the WB among the Pals, whose behaviour is far from rational. Maybe we should adopt a new approach to them; that of dealing with mentally deranged people as a result of excessive violence amidst them. I think they need psychological help more urgently than any politics. Their mental health is in tatters and we need to see that! HELLO!

It is truely amazing the venom that you can barely manage to conceil towards the palestinians. You may not care but the way you speak to the Palestinians doesn't appear to be far off the mark on to how your soldiers treat them. This post is one more point of proof that it is Israeli society that is degenerating from the inside out. Israelis are starting to take any life boat off the broken ship even ones belonging to your foes. At least the Pals have you to blame, you can only blame yourselves. There are many palestinians rooting for people like you to be heard, if only because you cannot help but expose your deep seeded hate, and in the process getting the world closer to where truth lies. Keep it up Tali, as far as the Palestinians are concerned, you are their inadvertant friend.

Gory history? Brigitte,perhaps you can explain how you arrived at the conclusion that this blood libel is fact. I'd venture a guess that it has something to do with your stated belief that Jews think they're better than everyone else. That point of view is common to all virulently anti-semitic groups throughout history. Could it be that your historical references include "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? That czarist forgery is the book most responsible for propagating blood libel in the 20th century, and is now being printed by the Iranian government press. Is that the kind of company you want to keep?

Why should the state of israel lag behind Austria nd other European countries? Perhaps the Kenesset would consider passing a law forbidding the promotion of blodd libels. That way Professor Toad could be arrested and present his evidence in court, and perhaps suffer the same ignominity as David Irving.

Your self important lectures make you the laughing stock of this talkback.

Bar Ilan University should remove this 'historian' from its faculty. Toaf should be prosecuted for spreading false accusations that could lead to murder.

I don't think so. We in Europe were burning so called "witches" in the Middle Ages. Should one throw with stones if one is sitting in a glass-house...??

Scientific fraud has been around since time immemorial. Ariel Toaff's upcoming challenge is to demonstrate that his methodology is correct (at this point in time). Should his "scientific" process not meet the Test of Refutability he will join other "Burnt out Cases", doing cold fusion research on their kitchen tables. Maybe he should quit now and achieve the fame that he so desperately seeks with a best seller titled "Scabs I have known".

They say that TRUTH is the first victim of wars! Now we are witnessing the slow death of academic research through the name calling, economic and academic boycots, harassment, fear and even incarseration of researchers who DARE TO QUESTION the "accepted" line of thought! Just over 1 year ago, Hwang Woo Suk, the disgraced South Korean stem cell scientist, offered an apology after his claims of major research breakthroughs in the past two years were discredited. Just imagine the scientific loss had the research of this scientist gone unchallenged - through hard core scientific evidence! All historical facts, discoveries or scientific theories should stand on their own and be open to challenge by anyone using agreed upon scientific methods. Galileo almost paid with his own life for challenging the flat-Earth theory. The Church had an interest in eliminating any type of "disobedience". It seems that we haven't learned anything since!

History must display always Jews as the victims, otherwise it is antisemitism or racism. Let historians propose their theories. If they are wrong, let the experts prove they are wrong. There are scientific methods to do it. On the other hand, if there was blood libel by a small extremist Jewish group in the past, let the Bar-Ilan historian prove it. History will not change because it causes outrage in modern times. Curiously, the Jews do not stop to remind the world about the historical proofs of a Holocaust, but by all means try to discredit any possibility of blood libel.

And by that remark you do reveal your antisemitism. Are your eyes rolling already? Read on. Even if this Rabbi's book were true (and it is not), it is a horrible story. Your dancing on this fictitious blood with glee (in your assumption that it is real), is the most unabashed and disgusting sub-human display I've seen in some time. Anything, anything at all that discredits the Jews, and you are dancing and singing "This is just too good"! What is good about it, either way? "Foxman had a cat" you say? As in he is a Jewish satanist? You've been reading the Protocols of Zion way too much. You are the worst type of antisemite -- dark, very dark.

"Now, how many those, arguing that by no means such rituals could have taken place on account on strict religious prohibitions, have transgressed the leviticus Laws and mitzvas fifteen times since they opened their eyes this morning?" I agree that very few, if any, folks are 100% on target with what their religion requires in terms of behavior. As with civil law, there are even situations where one must choose from two competeing directives. However, capturing, killing, and drinking the blood of abother human, in concert with other co-conspiritors is no small slip, oversight, or question of priority. I can't imagine anyone being able to use the standard rationalizations to justify the direct violation of so many major commandments.

There is a big problem in a jewish character. We know well that some Jews, who wanted to be seen by non-lews as very objective persons and who have a high ego to be seen by everybody as a best group of Jews, can take enormous responsibility to act like "professor" Ariel Toaff. Obviously he had no problems to publish such a book outside of Israel. He must be called persona non-grata and never be allowed to come to Israel. I believe he does not understand what it was published under his name. He is a mad man!

and in so doing to lend legitimacy to the "debating" parties, including to those wishing us Jews to be eliminated. Are you, Walid, a debater as well?

I second every word of yours, Tali!!!

"Then, Bar-Ilan University can also claim that they are at the "cutting edge" of academic theory by virtue of their collective self-hatred." Collective self-hatred? Bar-Ilan is a really strange place, first of all because one can't stick the two-dimentional labels like yours. Serious schoolars like Y.Katz hold academic positions there together with total nuts: there's a team of "experts" examining the possibility of Hallakhic State instead of Israel. One would think it's plain Iran or something. If one can find a general assessmant, Bar-Ilan University is a haven for nationalist-religious agenda ridden schoolarship. Thus A.Toaff is rather exception there.

a few madman did do that stuff.does the learned professor not realise that he is opening a pandoras box for the jews? are we going to blame the whole jewish people for crimes that may have been perpetrared by those who belong in prison? what is the point of the book?is it going to win a nobel prize for literature?

In Britain on CNN in the report on "The enemy within". On a Pal video by a homicide bomber

He no doubt stands to make a fortune from the many translation rights. Why publish in Italian when he works in Israel? Before you know it there will be English, Arabic, Farsi and many other translations, filling his pockets and endangering the lives of Jews worldwide. Italy has had some weird rabbis, now they can boast a rabbi's weird son.

Lets have your evidence for ritual murder and use of blood. You know like screaming Allaaaaaaah Akbar while blowing themselves up. You know like homicide bombers who announce they drink blood.

I detect someone 'on the make' about to become rich with his revisionism, attacking Ashkenazim, i.e. non-Italian Jews, helping fuel the tidal wave of anti-Israel sentiment, given succor to Arbs who are reprinting the Protocals of the Elders of Zion and other 19th Century hate fabrications.

Is this the latest round in Ashkenazi-Sephardi sparring in Israel? Evidence given under torture is by definiation not reliable. If he says Jews responded to pressure, why didn't Jews kill German non-Jews at random during the Holocaust? The concept of drinking blood is at the heart of communion when Christians drink the blood and eat the flesh of their saviour. There is nothing Jewish about it.

ONE MORE EXTRA MESHGNER IN ISRAEL. GOD HELP US WITH THESE FOOLS AROUND.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha whoaaaoooooo beside knowledgeable isn't suppose a prof to be also wise hah pkhei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei , trick rating sales book a la carter , spice 'it up hollywood style with some controversy , pkha kha ha ha ha ha ha ha Toaff must love Dracula movies khei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha whoaaaoooooo, to sale his book according to Toaff , jews are now vampires hah khei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei hei ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, i'll check movie on demand if they have blade series with the new vampire species , Toaff cheeky joke was a good one , my cheeks and jaws are hurting

This topic is not worth one sentence.

Let's leave for a second the credibility of his conclusion leaving aside. Now, how many those, arguing that by no means such rituals could have taken place on account on strict religious prohibitions, have transgressed the leviticus Laws and mitzvas fifteen times since they opened their eyes this morning? Religious laws and tabus are violated just like the civil ones, with a general difference that biblical "don't kill" is mostly violated by the zealots in the name of their religion.

"put the world judaism in danger" ????? the catholic church is in danger because of the PROVEN crimes she comitted during for instance the inquisitia ? the german nation is in "danger" because of the PROVEN crimes of the holocaust ? why have the jews to be people better than others, why they cannot commit crimes like EVERYBODY else ? why is it if some jews are crimials then all the antisemitism and its crimes during the centuries are justified ? beside that, i think that to invent a story like "using blood to make food" can only come from terrific hatred, in other words from the christians.

http://www.petitiononline.com/silv56yh/petition.html

ANYONE WHO COMMENTS ON CONFESSIONS UNDER TIRTURE IS ACLASS ONE IDIOT

Dear Sirs, It's a shame that a religious israeli university has been still defending this pseudo Professor who, with his last book, puts and will put the worldwide judaism in danger!!!! I expected Bar Ilan to fire him on the spot!!!If Bar Ilan does not take action, it will find itself in a big trouble in terms of reputation and drop of prospect students in the next future. As an italian jew I feel very outraged by this person and so far all the italian jewish community as well....for not talking about the former Chief Rabbi of Rome, his father Elio Toaff who so far did not want to meet him ... Lelaido Chaim Lopez

David Teich, stop acting the pompous fool and look at the positive side of having had this story out in the open. Ignorant people are showing us here that they have nothing else to say other than that the author is a Jew-hater and other such idiocies while intelligent people here are saying that according to your religion, the concept of blood goes against its principles and as such, it has to be simply discarded. It is with such reporting on certain accusations against Jews, that these can be openly vented and proven wrong. The ways of the ignorant that you have chosen to follow, is to criticize the author and keep everyone's head in the sand. It is because of such ignorant attitudes that negative myths about Jews continue to survive instead of being debated and put to rest once and for all. But, you probably have no clue as to what I'm talking about.

Let him take the consequences of a libel suit.

When one considers the history of Israeli "questioning" and remembers that people have died from being "questioned", it becomes a little iffy to ascribe all torture to Arabs.

Great scholar or great arse? That is the question.

What is stopping you. More Taqiyya and kitman or'holy hypocrisy'for the kuffars eh? Lets have your proof! Do not hide behind endless aliases be man enough to back up your "allegations"

What Toaf has done here will result in two things: 1. He will and should be treated as persona non grata by the rest of the Jewish Community...the way that the community now rejects the Neturei Karta sect. 2. Anti-Semites, Jew Haters and their creed will now embrace this man as if he is the one Jew who will admit the "truth" that Jews use Christian blood for ceremonial purposes and for making Matzot. It amazes me and saddens me how a person, in order to gain personal fame and fortune, will even libel his own people and put them in physical danger in order to achieve his goals.

I confess: the Church is right. I was wrong. Please accept my humblest apologies.

Better than Cambell's soup

"irrefutable proofs"...my a... if settlers in Hebron had been doing drinking your blood, we wouldn't have you on our backs right now -- you would have been a thing of the past. So shut up and spare us your "Palestinian" idiocies. No wonder your society is the most screwed up on the planet. Keep at it and you'll solve our problem.

One year ago Haaretz printed a interesting article about what SOME ultra orthodox Jews do on Christmas, namely all kind of profane jobs such as cutting the toilet paper that was going to be used on Sabbath for the rest of the year. Furthermore, they believe that Christmas Eve is an evil night, thus they don't study the Torah. If some small groups still have that hateful, offensive view of Christmas, I think it could be true that some misguided Jews did horrible things centuries ago. I'd read the book before passing judgment.

But why are the Jews so afraid to face up to a piece of gory history? There have been such blood cults in just about every society from deep in history to the present. Underlying these cults is the belief that the blood of virgins, enemies, children, has power to produce what the people themselves couldn't bring about. Today's sex beliefs aren't that far away in their alleged "miracle producing" capacity. No need for Jews to get all worked up. Every nation and epoch has some ugly realities. Look at it with an open mind. Nobody asks you to reenact it. Nor are Jews better than anybody else. Apparently, there lies the crux of the criticism of Professor Toaff. Jews want to believe that from all peoples of this earth, they are the best and purest. What if that myth isn't so true? Surely, the Palestinian occupation is a rather dirty spot on the Israeli page. What if future generations hate you for it?

You must mean the Bush Administration.

Just add him to the Neturah Karta - Adam Shapiro - Gush Shalom - mix... And the rest of the self hating Jews who seek the end of our people... PATHETIC!

The author of the fiction book has decided to use confessions derived from torture, by the inquisition and other sources. Considering the Arab world's regular use of torture, I'd look further into the background of this supposed Jew.

In your mind, apparently it does. If some connection to a rabbi or Israel is made, the assertions by any individual must be true. Isn't this why Ahminejad invited the very small sect of Jews to his Holocaust denial conference? Again, they're Jews, so it must be true. In that same breath, I wonder if you will extend the same "credibility" to those members of Arabs for Israel and anti-Pal terrorism activist, Shohat, who actively support the Jew's right to self-determination and governance over their biblical homeland. I mean, after all, they ARE Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians...how can you argue with that??

Who funded the 'research'?

This is no justification for pogroms or violence. If one Jew is a lech, are all Jews lechs? If one Jew is a crook, are all Jews crooks? Of course not, but the problem is one bad Jew is seen as all Jews. Remeber, if a NASA asronaut cracks up and tries to murder another astronaut, are all astronauts that way? No one with a grain of sense in his or her head would think that but with Jews, alas, it's the opposite.

Every hate group will be screaming how the evil Jews are attacking their own who is speaking the"truth". Every hate group will scream how the Zionist controlled world is going against his revelation.

now we dont have to feel so bad! In yekaterinburg 5 people drove a metal cross through a young jewish man and killed him!

The Middle Ages were a very dark time. People daily saw torture, and hangings were happening all the time. All kinds of sects and witchcraft were around, understably, as life was short, brutal, and painful. It is possible that a few Jews engaged in ritualistic murder. I cannot fathom the relevance of that today, and why some people on this forum find this "too good to be true". Some people did terrible things during WWII: it doesn't mean anything about Germans, Romanians, etc. And if it is true, that Jews ate blood, than it is a good thing for us to research it: human beings have a dark side, Jews have a dark side. We Jews are capable of evil as much as everyone else; after all the Holocaust itself was performed, on its daily basis, by Jews themselves - Primo Levi describes this phenomenon very well in his "Survival in Auschwitz".

Hebron. There are irrefutable proofs to corroborate this...

.....something that happened hundred years ago (maybe) .I'm a Christian and I don't feel any need to comment this so don't waste your time with Did we or did we not think.I won't turn a suicide bomber to avenge my predecessors. I promise :-)) Let's work together for better future for all of us, Muslim included....

the moron is bored and wanted to get his name out but he will burn

What is he doing in Bar Ilan? Fire this scoundrel ASAP. The idiot just decided to earn a fame from BS. Does he understand that other idiots (Jew-Haters) now will start to refer his stinky revelation?

I am sure that no Jew would ever use human blood. It is against Judaism. However, I do know of Muslims who dipped their hands in Jewish blood. Quite recent, in Judea and Samaria.

What kind of historian supposedly an educated intelligent individual would write such uncredible and illogical nonsense? You can't make matza out of blood ! What foolishness! I don't know if there is anything worse than a Jew and an Israeli actually discussing and considering anti-Jewish notions that are purely myths. He is only stroking the fires!