Avigdor Lieberman: Peace talks could bring about government's collapse

You wrote: "Is every Palestinian man, woman, and child living today to be punished for what happened. From your comments it sounds like it." Actually, I didn't say anything like that.

"Who carried out the Hebron massace in 1929? Yes, it was the Arabs living in Hebron." You are correct. Mobs of Arab residents living in Hebron did kill 67 Jews. No one disputes this. While we're on the subject of massacres who kill over one hundred Arab residents in the village of Deir Yassin and razed over 400 Arab villages in what is now Israel? There's a good chance that where you are now was once the site of an Arab village.

"It was the Palestinian Arabs who fought in the first Arab Israeli war, as I stated." Is every Palestinian man, woman and child living today to be punished for what happened. From your comments it sounds like it.

Who carried out the Hebron massace in 1929? Yes, it was the Arabs living in Hebron. They murdered 67 Jews and forced the rest of the Jews to flee. This in spite of the fact that Jews had lived in Hebron for thousands of years. They were never compensated for the land and homes they lost. After 1967 war, Jews went to live in Hebron again.

It was the Palestinian Arabs who fought in the first Arab Israeli war, as I stated. Your post indicated you didn't know they had been involved in any wars with Israel.

"So, you see, the Palestinian Arabs were as implicated in this war, which they started, as the nations you mention in your post." Is that all Palestinian Arabs (including decendents of the original fighters, etc.) or just some of your choosing?

K: "Explain to me how millions of Jews of European blood, whose ancestor NEVER lived in the coastal area of Israel at any time before 1920`s - can come, and make millions of Arabs live in squalid refugee camps for LIFE! Its a crime against humanity." FYI, Research has shown that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. And that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women. These four "founder lineages" were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Near East in the first and second centuries CE. Jews were expelled from Jerusalem & Judea by Romans. Ashkenazis moved to Europe c. 800-1000 AD

"But Israel wasn't satisfied with defending itself and accepting the UN partition..." Nosirree. Israel DID accept the partition. But making it real in the face of absolute Arab rejectionism was not an option. And you're confusing the 1948 war - when the partition didn't happen, with the 1967 war, when the 'disputed' lands were conquered. Israel did NOT ask Nasser to start that war by blockading Israel and closing the straits of Tiran, which is an act of war. As for your second question, Daybreak answered it perfectly well in post#300. As for all Arabs being the same to me, you don't know me and obviously have not been following my posts. I would never confuse decent, honorable Arabs, like those who work peacefully with Jews, and serve in the IDF and Israeli police, with those whose only agenda is destroying all of Israel. I have nothing but praise for those Arabs (like Sheikh Abu Yusuf) who fought against the Arab "city effendis" to help Israel win the 1948 war.

I know that ability to comprehend is not of the list of things Texans are famous for. Just point to me where I said that it was O?K to claim the occupied land as spoil of the war. What I did say was that since you live on the ethnically cleansed land you should not claim higher moral ground. And yes since your country got away with what it did to Indians since there was no charter it is pretty modern idea. As for Israel using spoils of the war idea from the day one, may be you should read more and think less.

"When Jews begin to rationalize our social values based on German policies in the 1930`s, it`s truly time to worry." Sir, Sudetenland transfer was carried by Allies according to our humanitarian principles... ps. Sorry I almost missed your post

monster,is a frankenstein monster.Doing eye surgery is okay,but would be nicer if israel stopped fencing people in and bulldozing houses,shooting and killing and return land to their rightful owners.That would definitely be better.

Since the Prime Minister has no real mandate from the electorate and the police seem to feel there are good reasons to talk to him he should leave office.There are no partners for any peace talks now.The sides are miles apart and always will be.Should there be another period of rioting and disorder by the ASrab side it should be dealt with by a government willing to end this cycle of civilian violence.The present government constantly issues threats to retaliate against Hamas for rocketing towns in Israel,doing nothing and thereby encouraging further violence.The present government is a thorn in Israels side.

Since Peter in his usual ironic and sardonic manner referred to a female poster stating that Olmert giving a quote concrete response unquote and those were my words, I presume it was me. He can call me a freier all he wants. I've been called worse here by other posters of equal credibility. To tell you the truth, they all make me laugh. Shalom

I see now why Haaretz let me post, Alan. They want you to continue posting.

You wrote: "How many Palestinians living then or today had anything to do with those wars? Weren't they fought by Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq? Oh that's right they are all Arabs to people like you." Actually, let's take the first Arab-Israeli war. Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Iraq did invade Israel in this war. On that you are correct. That was the SECOND stage of the first Arab-Israeli war. But there were two stages. The first stage was a civil war, lasting from the end of November 1947 until mid-May 1948. The PALESTINIAN Arabs launched this first stage of the war against the Yishuv (Jewish settlement in Palestine). (Morris, Righteous Victims, Vintage, 2001, p. 191). The Yishuv initially DEFENDED themselves against the Palestinian Arabs' attack in this war (ibid., p. 196). So, you see, the Palestinian Arabs were as implicated in this war, which they started, as the nations you mention in your post.

Hey, there's a general call out here for original ideas I see. Where are yours? You leach onto posters quoting bits but not explaining what you find worth quoting about the quotations. You deny people legitimacy without convincing us. You make accusations without grounds. Hey little clickfool number three explain your positions or keep quiet

If Zionism were just a wish for the Jews to have a homeland, I would support it. However, the point you, and Margie and the other Zionists (christian or jewish) ignore - is the suffering caused by the creation of Israel in 1948 and the ongoing 59 years of suffering for milllions of innocent victims. If Jews were Buddhists, maybe they would have come to Palestine and talk to the muffahs and imans, and made their homeland via peaceful harmonious methods - rather than being the ones who introduced terrorism to the middle east, massacres of civilians, and hijacking of planes. If I aspire to own a home for my family thats a great dream. But that doesn't give me the right to kill a family and take their home. Thats the point that the world understands - but which Americans and Jews are in denial over.

Most of those who post here about Israel being criminal are freiers (suckers) taken in by the knee jerk media to whom Jews run the world. For them, Israel, the super-Jew must have ulterior motives in every aspect of their lives. Israel performs eye surgery on the disadvantaged and the cry is that it's for PR value. Are these people just stupid or are they fooled by ambient prejudice?

You're right - I have no respect for Zionism at all. Its ethnic cleansing disguised as payback for WWII. If you harbor any idea that Jewish blood is more valuable, more pure, or higher quality in any way that other human beings on this planet, then you are racist just like the skinheads - its just that you have a culture and better slogans to wrap around your racism. You could have peace in 1967 or 2007 - just give back the stolen land. But no, that conflicts with Zionist ideas! Please explain to me how Zionism is great. Explain to me how millions of Jews of European blood, whose ancestor NEVER lived in the coastal area of Israel at any time before 1920's - can come, and make millions of Arabs live in squalid refugee camps for LIFE! Its a crime against humanity. The thing you don't recognize is that Zionism discredits the good and noble history of the Jews and the Judaic religion.

Both are current.Playing harmless innocent is a bit passe in the face of documented reality. Firstly it is The Pals who refer to themselves as part of the Arab race.It says so clearly in their covenant.Secondly they have always claimed all of the mandate in the unrecanted covenant. To make sure everybody except the intelligencia get the message Hamas the elected govt of Palestine keep reiterating their charter.

Peter: "ata yachol likfotz li" Ha ha!!!! You really gave me a good laugh. Thanks!!!

Did you call it Israel's fascist policy when thousand Jewish residents were forcibly transferred from Gaza and parts of Samaria? Many of them havent even been relocated to homes and occupy "temporary caravans". What about the thousands of Jews who could be forcibly transferred from the rest of Judea and Samaria if there is a peace deal? In your eyes is it only ok to transfer Jews and not Arabs? Lieberman is referring to places such as Taibe (which I'm sure you've never heard of - an Arab town just outside of Samaria in Israel) to be handed over to the Palestinians to become a part of their state. In exchange, the same amount of land inhabited by Jews would become part of Israel. Not too hard to understand, I dont think and very reasonable.

Hamas may not be on their knees but th population o Gaza who will pay the butchers bill are. But as long as click gets o see a bloody conflict what the heck.

Arafat made the Fortune 500. Not bad for a "self sacrificing revolutionary" a fedayun. We need not bother to mention the other Arab despots who have used this as an excuse for their own repression. Now Iraq is doing the same.

there are two popularly elected governments but click sees Israel being led by a military junta and the PALS being led by the peace loving Hamas.

"/Margie/Can`t have both Zionism and Peace" Kevin, this remark shows how ignorant you are. Do you know what zionism means? Do you want me to explain it to you? It means "the belief in a homeland for Jews". Thats it. Simple. Not difficult for the brain to comprehend. There are millions of Christian zionists. Israeli zionists, that is, people who believe in a homeland for Jews would also like to have peace. This is not a contradiction.

Is Israel will let its citizens die at th hands of Islamofacists. I guess click. forgot about that small detail. But its not it not such s big deal for a guy thats not an antisemite.

now you complain. There is nothing to stop you setting the "right" example to Israelis is there? You could also complain about China and Tibet. Tibet never tried to destroy China did it but that is too profound for a progressive intellectual isn't it?

There are about 50 Muslim countries and one Jewish country in the UN. Dont you think the results would be a bit biased? Yhe United Nations cannot be trusted for impartiality.

"Our families could have liveed just fine in a smaller Israel, if it would have kept our loved ones alive and well." But Israel wasn't satisfied with defending itself and accepting the UN partition was it? From 50% of the land to 78% was apperently worth it in the minds of Israels leaders. "Unfortunately, the Arabs - for whom you`ve appointed yourself a cheerleader - didn`t give Israelis that choice before repeatedly attacking them." How many Palestinians living then or today had anything to do with those wars? Weren't they faught by Syria, Egypt, Jordan amd Iraq? Oh that's right they are all Arabs to people like you.

Preferring genocide that they openly stated as their goal when they attacked Israel. Arabs NOT Zionists restarted pogroms,in the 1920's.Till then there were no Israeli defence forces at all. Arabs not Zionists who said the 3 No's of Khartoum,no peace ,no negotiations,no recognition of Israel. It was Arafat the Egyptian who broke off the Clinton negotiations to start his prearranged terror attacks to break Israeli civillians. Nothing has changed how many Arab attacks are there on the Israeli army.? Shooting qassems at Israeli towns is pure genocide that fails but its not due to lack of trying. Glad to see another"well informed"Arabist.

"Why do not you look around? Since your name is not Sitting Bull or Jose Ignacio you are living on the land that was claimed as a spoil of war..." How about trying for an original idea. So because one country did something 200+ years ago it's acceptable for Israel to do the same? Come to think of it that's the excuse Israel has used since day one. There's one thing you seem to be forgetting. The United Nations (which Israel is a member) Charter forbids the taking of land as a spoil of war. That's a pretty modern idea don't you think?

aBBAS CANNOT denand "everything" quickly, and offer ZERO in return. I don't see him doing a thing, frankly. This HAS to be a two way street-any negotiations do-you must admit Ibrihim.

The second one hasnt finished yet. The only reasons there are less suicide bombs are thanks to security barrier, Israeli intelligence and Palestinian collaborators who give tip-offs regarding imminent attacks, terror cells, etc.

Peter, I was looking for the poster you were referring to as a freier, and couldn't attribute this to anyone particular. Now do you really think that a freier would be reading and posting on Haaretz?

The Irish rubbernecker has great interest in attempting to discredit those who are looking for a solution....it wouldn't satisfy his bloodlust. As he continues to garble and gurgle about Israel, a country he knows nothing about, he consistantly refuses to engage on Irish history and details that explain his rabid anti-semitism and his moral bankruptcy. What we all call dirt is his pride and joy so he won't discuss his heros in Stalag 301 or Andrija Artukovic and Celestine Laine.

They thought they could break the will of the Israeli people. They got a fence for their trouble.

That's rich...threatening the arabs to choke on more sand and to have even less left on the table??? You have to give it to him for his incredible logic and to the arabist apologists who are leaping on his bandwagon. There is nothing more certain thatn these people continuing to repeat the exact same actions over and over and consistantly expecting different results despite falling into a deeper and deeper mess all the time. Qureia holds the gun to his own head and Threatens Israel to give him what he wants or he'll shoot. The correct response: ata yachol likfotz li

the story of the jewish people is closely bound up with the land of israel which they regard as their ancient homeland.the hebrew bible[the OT books of the christian bible]records their early history.under the leadership of joshua, the israelites settled in canaan[own by God of Israel]and made it successful. in the 11th century BC they elected saul as their first king.he was succeeded by david and founded jerusalem, and then by solomon.troubled times followed, ending with the roman occupation of the land to which they gave the name palestine.........

He was going to terrorise Israel into submission. He got nowhere. The Egyptian terrorist Arafat lives on and the Pals have learned nothing.

Anybody who can post that you can't have Zionism and Peace is not only a racist but they unwittingly go to the core issue of the conflict. Arabs and the arabist apologists are unable to swallow the concept of the Jewish State of Israel...in the Middle East. Unfortunately when dealing and discussing with such fantasy freeloaders there is no logic that one can use to explain and there is no negotiation to be had. The bottom line is that reality gets in the way of the neo-revisionists and they are unable to come to grips with the fact that there is one and only one reason why these people aren't celebrating anniversary's at the same time as us. They aren't a People, never were a People and never will be a People. They don't have the Right Stuff.

This whole conflict must go back tot he UN & Security Council as many people are purposing now. Israelis can't be trusted anymore the security services and the military are constantly undermining the government and threatening it like Lieberman is doing. They are terrrorists in their own way and Israelis need to dump overboard--politically speaking. Dutch

"sounds like qureia is doing his best for peace" How did you come up with that brilliant conclusion? He's threatening Israel with a 3rd intifada. You call that peaceful?

It is much better for this man to shut up. He is the one that negotiated Oslo as a security contract between Israel and the PLO in exchange for money. He, Arafat and Abbas who undermined the first non-violent Intifada. he and the late Arafat who mismanaged the second Intifada and he was the one who stole the cement, sold it to Israel to build the Wall not to mention making a killing on real estate in Abu-Dis and he was the one that corrupted SAMED Industries. He is the last one to speak out. He should be tried for his crimes against the people. What a stupid man.

David Samson quote " "Nice to hear the "new" palestinian negotiating tactic: "Let`s make a deal, but unless you give us what we demand we`ll commit more crimes against humanity by striking up a third, more vicious and ugly intifada." Labhras quote " The Issi State is the world,s leading perpetrator of such crimes,as evidenced by the more than 100 UN resolution passed against It." they were passed to appease arabs repeated war/aggression defeats , It cost a lot of arab money to bribe UN memmbers to pass such anti Israel resolutions, Arabs could have used that money to rise pals living standard in arabs states instead of arabs threatening pals to be refugees in arabs concentration low life camps or coercing pals to meet their 72 years old promised virgin . " In any case Labhras should try to change his prune juice in that trailer of his while not to wake up the neighbours." , for that Labhras will surely come back with "land stolen' arab propaganda .

Only minor concessions should be made by Israel while the Pals are still on the offense. They must not get the idea that their deliberate and constant attack of the Jewish nation has led Israel to the bargaining table. It's obvious why.

If you had a needle it would come in handy to pierce you know...where the sun don't shine. You are stuck on Margie for some reason,could it be LOVE? But! i am sure she'd give a kick in the BUTT and not a moment sooner. Now go and paddle your canoe...

There isn't a poster who writes Pals in a demeaning way - it's all in the mind of the beholder - you in this case. It's simply quicker and easier to write than spell out the entire wor each time. Your reactions are like those of an immature 12 year old. You quote endlessly in case someone does not get it - line explaining the punchline of a joke. You pounce on all newcomers that Margie responds to, "warning" about her "criminal" tendencies - you sure don't have much respect for others - allowing them to judge for yourself. By the way - I haven't seen anyone actually agreeing or thanking you for your "assistace". Probably think you're an idiot, which you are.

even pals never climed that. are you on drugs or what?

Thx Haaretz censor for knowing me better that I do myself and refusing to put on some posts from me in which I am taken by European guilt and start being soft and an asshole to Israeli stone hardcore supporters.

I fear Liebeman may be right. Jeff Northridge's analysis (90) is very good. But it doesn't go far enough. I've tried to follow this story closely, both here and through JPost and in the US press. This conference is about establishing some basis for a joint vision for the future. How can Israelis get an agreement for a joint vision for the future when the current Israeli government is dysfunctional on the entire issue of peace with the Palestinians. I have yet to see one single proposal of the Israeli side which the entire Israeli government seems to be able to agree on. Jerusalem - NO Israeli internal agreement Borders or principles for Borders - No Isreali nternal agreement Refugees - No Israeli internal agreement Security - No Israeli internal agreement Settlements - No Israeli internal agreement Prisoners - No Israeli internal agreement Purpose of the meeting - No internal Israeli agreement Maybe Israeli factions should have a pre-Annapolis Summit.

The Islamic Bloc in the UN controls the General Assembly, they could easily get 1000 UN resolutions against Israel, but it doesn't make the UN or their resolutions more ethical, moral or corrupt. Those who indiscriminantly target women, children and other non-combatants will reap the whirlwind.

Other than hard core radical maniacs, it had been widely understood the chance of that is big fat zero. Moderate (currently preferred & popularized version)- Israel has to be buttered & bruised, physically, mentally or in combinations of thereof to wash away substantial portions of past pride & honor humility & make it clearly visible that had been accomplished. Absolutely nothing less will do. It is simply as much dangerous to Islam as terror to Israel not to exercise revenge after all sworn promises. After that Israel may be smiled upon & allowed to coexist as the ME second class citizen, eventually demographically blended & melted. To build a bridge between the two, one of two things must happen. Either few more generations of Israelis be born who will allow to be freely `bruised & buttered`, or few Arab generations brainwashed with Israeli non hate. Anyone wants to try & accomplish that in one, three or six months?

Largely depends on what the goals & strategies are & how far they advance. If you are Israel/US looking to show the world that `yes, we care`, you may deem or at least trumpet it as the (limited) success. If you are the Arab league, sending Arafat like messenger with the list of `laundry` & looking for an answers to your demands or subjects YOU wanted to discuss & nothing else, Abbas will go home empty handed & like Arafat will `realize the resistance is the justified & inevitable way`. Anyone looking for a genuine peace to set in a month or three or six after conference-forget it. Those almost yearly attempts to bridge the two sides with totally contrast understanding of what needs to happen for the genuine peace to function are the failures in itself. Israel wants peace to begin today AS IS, period, or simply left alone. The Arab world has two versions: Radical- peace only possible with Israel completely gone (Arab on Arab hate is peaceful nuances).

Leave it to a nitwit to say that two kids drawing Swastika's are representative of Russian Jews---It would like my saying that you're what the English people consist of--- If there is a deal, it will have no bearing on the IslamoFacists that are terrorizing world wide--- I live in hope, that one day you'll write something rational---

arses? Arsecrack on the other thread and Labarse on here. You looking for some action?

(sorry if I missed anyone) would agree to the outstanding items such as the possibility of land exchange of 3- 5% of West Bank with regards to the borders, surely this is an item to be negotiated over a period of time. The parameters of an agreement are pretty well known to all who truly want a peaceful solution, but knesset members like Lieberman are playing political games which are not contributing to bringing stability to the region.

Ethnic separation has always been on Mr Lieberman's agenda! Poor deluded Israel will never be a democracy with such fascist ideology on the loose.

You wrote-------"Nice Pali Negotiating Tactic" Maybe it is a nice "Issi" negotiating tactic". You wrote ,---- "Nice to hear the "new" palestinian negotiating tactic: "Let`s make a deal, but unless you give us what we demand we`ll commit more crimes against humanity by striking up a third, more vicious and ugly intifada." You got a lot of "testikel" Talking about crimes against Humanity.The Issi State is the world,s leading perpetrator of such crimes,as evidenced by the more than 100 UN resolution passed against It.

Ibrahim, you wrote: ?A third intifaddeh would be a disaster. It would expose the aparthied wall as useless...many dead civillians...and God only knows what the Israelis will do to the civillian population this time around.... The Israelis are complete fools to force these draconian security measures endlessly without any effort to deal with the core issues? Sorry to disappoint you but the only fools in this case are the Pals. A third intifada would be a disaster, not for the Israelis but mostly for the Pals. Just remember the Pals casualties of Intifada 1 and 2 compared to those of the Israelis.

of calling oneself a 'jewish' state,and one without a Constitution that guarantees equal rights to all citizens,regardless of race,religion or gender etc.But the land,as you say,will go back to the Palestinians whether by law or force.

How long did it take the allies in Europe before they allowed their enemies to 'go free' as you express it?

I'm puzzled by your description of me as narrowed by official Israeli propaganda. My sympathy is with the wasted lives of those in the camps - hardly an Israeli official position - and precisely my point is that there are no other refugees from other countries in camps throughout the world. Have you no fellow feeling for those in the camps? Have you never thought of their plight? Any leader who had the slightest amount of feeling for his people would never have let this situation develop.

I don't live in Jerusalem but I have discussed how to break it up into two cities with inhabitants of the city. Some feel that it not possible and some that it can be done only with tremendous good will on all sides and a great deal of delicacy and that it would take an administrator of talent to do so. I'm surprised by all the people here who so lightly dispose of this half and that half without considering how complex this is.

Abbas knows only to shout road blocks , and brainwash about safe passage between Gaza and West Bank so he could set up terror network (to be portrayed as civilians infrastructures) on both side of the safe passage , these terror network would of course serve as refuge to terrorists returning to their terror supporters with a kidnapped IDF soldier . if the safe passage runs underground , then no problem , they would digg tunnels ,

Madame, Thank you for the response. I would be curious to see your paintings. May be you have some on Internet? I empathize with your disappointment with some political elements of not your liking - but I guess, it's normal. ... Just came to my mind - peacemaking at Stalingrad, peacemaking as appeasement, etc When Chamberlain came to London after seeing Fuhrer, he sad" I brought you peace" Peace for a peace sake? Peace has to resolve problems, otherwise it is HUDNA.

Population Transfer based on Race or Religion. . If it is acceptable for Arabs and Muslims to be forcefully transferred from Israel, the West Bank and Gaza to Jordon and confiscate their possessions, Then is it arguably acceptable for any country to forcefully transfer a population from it's territory based on Race or Religion. (otherwise you espouse Hypocrisy) Then by corollary: It must be acceptable to forcefully transfer Israelis and Jews from the USA, UK, Russia, etc, etc. Obviously, this is totally unacceptable to a civilised population. Israelis, drop the Transfer argument. Otherwise, you sow the seeds of your own expulsion from the rest of the world. Or you are a hypocrite. . What are you? ? ? What will your children see? ?

This government cannot survive peace. It needs to change for peace to be achieved.

You really should ask Clickfool to let you have a little bit of the humour and perhaps you could root around somewhere for insight. You're back to using those pathetic tactics that everyone despises you for.

So I presume that you see nothing pathetic in sixty years of enforced idleness in the name of someone else's dream, or even your own, if it has become that Boycott? What a sad wasted life these people lead. I have infinite pity for them, but not for the people who manipulated them into this position.

This sacrifice has been played many times before, and always transgressed by those of a Semitic race who, in tradition, followed Ham. Words are meant to be empty towards those they consider their enemies (defined as one or more of the below: non-family, non-clan, non-tribe, non-national, non-Islamic). It is quite ok to say one thing and do another.

Hi the kevin. Read her post #11 where she states that the Palestinians have always destroyed peace efforts.No mention ever of any of Israel,s brutality or criminal treatment of the Palestinian People.This is the same fraud that has a peaceforum where Rabid zionists such as peter the rabbit are welcome and she has the chuztpah to state that no Arab Bashers allowed. The woman is a joke as are her peace efforts.Thank the good lord she is the insignificant non entity that she is.However her virulent propaganda is dangerous.She is of course a well trained activist in Apartheid Apologetics", having cut her teeth in the former SA regime. Regards

Cheering on anyone isn't my style. But your style is definitely concerned with cheering against 'Zionism' which is akin to satanism in your eyes isn't it? You can't criticise what you see with your limited vision as extremism by assuming that the mention of the camp opposed to yours is sufficient condemnation.

It much better to have Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, Kuwait, Yemen, Sudan, Chad and Libya be destination of poor Palestinians. Since Syria and Jordan do not want them and kept them locked into their camps for generations, let the trans-migration occur to these empty countries and have the rich Arabs pay for their diaspora. Dutch, you could open English language school and teech them to parley in the lingua franca of commerce.

...and the whore rulled saudia must show their true generosity towards the beasts. Only the whores of saudia must fit the bill in relocating and resettling the pal'n beasts in the farmost from Israel muslim/arabic/moronic lands or on the Moon. All existing Stans are acceptable as well as is the suicidal dog-state Iran. That where pal's must to go, not to any civilized country, as you moron suggested...

Dreaming is not a bad thing, but don't deny reality. You hope the Palestinians will suddenly accept Israel as a partner and neighbor, denying the last 25 years of their children being taught that Jews are less than human, or at least less than Arab. You continue a mis-fact: the Palestinians were forced from their homes. No way. They left at the behest of the neighboring Arab governments who said, "Please get out of the way because as soon as the British leave and Israel becomes a state, we will invade and crush it in a few hours. Leave so we won't hurt you, and when we finish killing the Jews or drive them into the sea, then you can come back and claim all of those jewish properties for your own." Unfortunately, the Pals believed them and followed instructions.

Dont forget your prune juice.

Your Pals or your neighbors are going to ask as much as they can get, you heard of pocker, from your side you can say if you dont sign we are going to grab all the land we can get as you have done.

Worry not, Chick (#128), for the eventual, but intermediate goal of the terrorists and Pan-Arab nations is to break off little pieces of Israel until the country ceases to function as a nation. Then pull all of the pieces together under one Dictatorial Fascisti, and make it a Greater Palestinian Nation. If they can make it happen, they'll take Lebanaon and Jordan, too. Thank you Mr. Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and certainly the Bushes, for their anti-Semitism and arrogance in working to undermine Israeli sovereignty.

What happened last time. The last time that it was close to a peace agreement, Israel dropped a one ton bomb in a tightly packed residential neighborhood in Gaza to kill a "Terrorist" leader. (falsely accused) Hamas and Fatah had agreed that they would enact a cease fire and were within 90 minutes (90 MINUTES) of announcing this to the world. Israel knew of the agreement. The "Terrorist" was actually a well known peace activist in Gaza and was a member of Fatah. Not the military wing. Israel killed about 20 people, including approx 9 children and wounded 130 others. This is defined as a war crime. This time. What will Israel do? Olmert has had the courage so far to push for peace. Has he got the strength to keep the IDF under control or will they do another illegal act to scupper Peace. If so, I expect that the world should push for prosecution of the IDF line of command at the Hauge. Or will it be a FALSE FLAG attack by Israel attributed to Fatah or Hamas. I watch with interest

fascism as a career option

I hope you are right Polybios and Margie. If I seem harsh on Israel you should read my (non-existing imaginitive) posts if I could put posts on an Arab/Pal Talkback about Pal/Arab behaviour. Alas there is not, I criticize Israel because the sanity has to come from Israel in this conflict, Pals/Arabs seem not capable to do that. And please remember the ME and the outcome of this conflict is crucial for the future of the whole world, I am not sitting in an easy armchair in Europe in Amsterdam-West where Mulsims are the majority in my neighbourhood and just posting to an Israeli newspaper because I am an European anti-Semite or freak.

Dear 17, When Jews begin to rationalize our social values based on German policies in the 1930's, it's truly time to worry. Ami

Persistence will by all nations involved will be necessary to ovecome the negativity generated by fear mongers and extremists.

What about terrorism and peace? Do you even know wat Zionism is (beside the garbage you are taught by your Imams/Israel bashers?

Nice to hear the "new" palestinian negotiating tactic: "Let's make a deal, but unless you give us what we demand we'll commit more crimes against humanity by striking up a third, more vicious and ugly intifada." Just the other day I tried that tactic when I was negotiating the purchase of a house. Told those pesky vendors that if they didn't agree to the price I demanded they should expect children strapped with bombs to pay them a visit. Worked wonders. Man, am I a shrewd negotiator.

In the US Departement of State's Eyes a Conference success wich is to relief the Arab plan wich US Condi endorsed same as Britain, wich means to lay the ground foundations of a terror pal state as a reward to arabs terror threats extortions , That is the meaning of the US Road Map , Global Jihad to set foot in the West Bank as it did in Gaza , Hell , even Egypt allow entry into Gaza of 80 terrorists returning from updated training a la Hezbollah-guerrilla-urban terror tactics style, That is the US Departemewnt of State consequences when it says 'diplomatic process' ,'created opportunity' , No wonder Cheney is pissed off at Condi about N.Korea-Syria late development exposed by the sep 6 IAF strike. Should the Jewish State object or refuse to Condi , the US Departement of State is ready to apply pressure , for example , as a cover to this mischief , Condi would say that Israel already committed itself to the 2000 Bush's speech outlining Road Map . to give the cold shoulder to Israel , to talk to Hamas , to freeze US-Israel weapons deal , ect...ect... Furthermore , the next step in that existential danger taken against the Jewish State would be the US department of State brandishing its often repeated States status quo maintenance to diplomatically bring an Israeli withdrawal from the west bank global jihad state , Abu Condi , Abu Blair , Abu Beilin , Abu D.Etkes , Abu G.Levy ,Mazzen A.Hass , Mahmoud Editorial , Abbas A. Eldar ,

it's true that abbas will expect goodwill gestures, but he is also offering them himself by offering peace and a potential end to bloodshed. he should be helped

Yeah Margie is a good case study on what is wrong with Israel. She claims to be a peace activist but then cheers on the IDF with its wanton destruction and murder. If she were a real peace activist she would fight for peace, fairness, and justice - not for Zionism. You can't have both Zionism and Peace.

From what I see the Israelis have been doing all the getting and the Palestinians all the receiving from the heavy machinery, nothing like turning things upside down, not a good try.

Of course we lament the fact that Olmert isn't offering anything "concrete" or that MI doesn't believe that the PA could control the situation. We want to see a commitment from Olmert and a response, yes he must give a response!!! Ok now who's the freier and who's pretending to be the freier? Olmert is expected to respond to Abbas and his maximalist demands- All land Israel won in '67, a right of return and E. Jerusalem as his capital. Ok, he can respond, empty Yesha of Arabs, the river to the sea are Israel's borders- also a maximalist position....and they can talk. Laying expectations of "gestures" on Olmert while expecting and getting NOTHING from Abbas is the sign of a freier...especially when the one demanding has an EMPTY HAND and everybody knows it.

When the Palestinians stop selling the fairy story to their people that Israel will eventually be theirs, when they stop preahing hate and start educating their kids toward a better future, using maps that show Israel with all its cities and villages in the 21st century, and preaching peace and cooperation - then there will be peace. Anything else is simply not worth spening a single moment on.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex, multi-faceted issue that goes back way before the settlements, indeed before the 6 Day War. Yet whatever is being discussed, whatever the subject of the article, you pop up here to refurgitate about the only catch-phase/buzzword that you Israel bashers seemed to have learnt by heart and swallowed whole without giving them much thought (the puniness of it is nauseating). "Illegal Settlement Expansion" is not THE deal breaker here - the Palestinians have been attacking Israel and Israelis and rejecting peace since long before there were any settlements. There will only be peace when the Palestinians internalize that Israel is here to stay, that peace is necessary for all, when they stop attacking and sit down to negotiate. The issue of the settlements is one of the issues to be negotiated - part of Israeli withdrawal, retaining large settlements on the border line and land swops. Tantrums and perpetual threatening won't get anyone anywhere.

In response to your question, I have painted watercolours like the botanical exhibition I've just seen and thought it would be enticing to join the organization to partake in workshops, exhibitions,etc. and enhance skills in painting which would encompass both scientific and aesthetic elements. A somewhat theraputic exercise painting and drawing is. Middle Eastern politics just doesn't cut it. It's really better to join at my retirement one day, but as I see the lack of seriousness and decisive peacemaking in the Middle East, and contributing to the Talkback forum day in and day out, one can understand the discouragement here with people like Lieberman and the right wing which wants to sabotage another opportunity in making a peaceful solution to the conflict. So we'll just have to wait and see how things develop... there's always next spring when the flowers bloom.

"What was once considered a racist, anti-democratic concept not fit for polite conversation has slowly gained a measure of legitimacy as a political option..." Sir, Really? How about transfer of Germans from Sudetenland? Please read the gentle way it was formulated by Allies... Exchange of population/land is racist? Population transfer from Gaza? Position of the Left is not a general humanistic position - not in the USA, not in Israel, not in UK, Not in France, not in .... BTW, how about racist transfer of Kashmir to Pakistan?

Success will prevail if there is a persistent will from all nations involved to overcome the negativity generated by fear mongers and exremists.

What has Abbas sacrificed? So far nothing. Seems to me that Israel has done all the sacrificing. So he thinks that if he threatens that he will make a bigger intifada if he doesn't get everything he demands that it will get him everything. He is acting like a spoiled child who throws a tantrum if his parents don't give him all. He deserves nothing and G-d willing I hope that is what he gets.

Howdy Danite; In addition to your two examples, Israel should also look at the Chinese annexation of Tibet, the three-way split of the former Principality of Kashmir & Jammu between India, Pakistan, and China, the occupation of the northeastern third of the Island of Cypress by Turkey, and the reunification of Vietnam. "...,or will it fight to the end and be forced out in disaster as the french." Probably fight to the end. The French had someplace to retreat to whereas the Israelis do not. Besides, Israel is a nuclear power and if her very life is seriously in peril, then half of the Middle East will go down with her and the other half will be taken care of by the U.S. "What many dont seem to understand that the two state solution if not negotiated will be imposed on israel." Imposed by whom? In order to externally "impose" a two-state solution would require that some idiot would be stupid enough to go to war with Israel again. I don't see too many volunteers for that.

You do know that Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the notorious Mufti of Jerusalem and arafat's alleged uncle and of whom arafat called 'my mentor'and 'our hreo' was an out and out Nazi right? Lived in Germany during WW II and made Nazi broadcasts into the Middle East in Arabic, raised a Muslim Bosnian army that took part in the Holocaust.According to documentation from the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials, the Nazi Germany SS helped finance al-Husseini's efforts in the 1936-39 revolt in Palestine. Adolf Eichmann actually visited Palestine and met with al-Husseini at that time and subsequently maintained regular contact with him later in Berlin. You do know that some members of Force 17 - arafat's personal guard named their children 'Eichmann' and 'Himmler'? You do know that arafat's supporters used to use the Nazi stiff arm salute to honor arafat? You do know that the PA publishes its own Mein Kampf translation? The Nazi-palestinian connection is real and disgusting.

Send Avigdor Lieberman back to his motherland Russia.

It is strange that somebody can still talk of population transfer in the 21st century, especially that he is talking about Israeli citizens who are supposed to have equal rights in any othr country.

This is the final solution other wise there won?t be any end to this conflict. You will live far away from us at your home and no harms comes from you to us and one day in future I hope we will achieve the peace.It did happed in the past between Turk and Greek

I agree with you. I do not like Arafat and not even because of his terrorist activities but mainly due to his dishonesty and poor leadership. However, I like him being compared to Hitler even less. That is totally ridiculous comparison. As far as solution is concerned my vision of two states is pretty close to yours.

...seeking mass scale asylum in Europe once peace summit will collapse. It will be a true nightmare for European countries to deal with millions of Palestinian refugees. Europe and the US gave away Palestinian land to European - and Russian Jews, so this means that Europe and the US should take care of the Palestinian refugees. The way Israel treats the Palestinians allows them to seek refugee under European Law. I am sure that Israel will be so kind to let El Al fly them to Amsterdam, Berlin, London and Paris. Day after day and week after week, let Israel bring millions of Palestinians to Europe. This nightmare scenario for European governments, will cause more European pressure on Tel Aviv. For Europe it will be more cost-effective to pressure Israel compared to dealing with millions of Palestinian refugees. So let me say it simple: as soon as the peace talks fail, due to Israel's agenda, the Palestinians should start flood Europe. Lets force the Jews out and let the Palestinians in?

Lebanese Israel does not need to grow up.What you should say is why haven't the Arabs taken a leaf out of the Jews by emulating them and thus grow up themselves instead of the same old puerile way they tend to behave. You as an Arab should know the problem and stop blaming Israel. I cannot cary a one way conversation with someone who thinks like you.Suffice it to say,after reading two lines I formed my opinion and reached the conclusion,of what you are trying to do,and that is putting the blame on Israel. Sorry Lebanese you have the wrong people in the book you are reading.

It is shameful that Blair listens to a racist and a hate monger like Lieberman. But what do you expect from a British like Balir? In my judgment, Britain to the Palestians is worse that Germany to the Jews. Britain is behind the Palestian suffering.

Lets kill off all the bloody terrorists mainly Hamas, and their allies to the north. Then we can talk peace. You guys must be the worlds biggest losers if you think their can be peace with terrorists. If that's the case, I have a bridge to sell you for 1 billion dollars.

Every one like & love the one who speaks the Truth. Jews admit the truth and live with it. Gentiles admit no lies and live with it too. Jews pray to speak their sins gentiles pray to bribe their Gods. Lieberman is a true Jew.

And insults the Palestinian People in the same breath. "People are in the third generation of their new homes now, they`re citizens who`ve almost forgotten where they came from originally: except the Palestinians."M in TA It is just that brand of arrogance that invites words such as "pathetic". So Palestinians refugees are supposed to dissappear, and forget who they are.But Jews have the right and obligation to never forget. You and your,e peace forum are a joke.

Chick You are a Man after my heart. Those who made so many hearts broken and tears from innocents eyes;let them see their savage hearts broken and the tears from their blind eyes. Our prayers as always to the IDF. The arm of G-d on this stupid earth. To Thank you I will read you Lord Byron in The Destruction of Sennacherib: The Assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold And his cohorts were gleaming in purple & gold And the sheen of their spears like stars on sea When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galile That is what our fathers (bless their souls) fought for this Land. Not those who send their children to fight for them.. Keep well dear friend.

Howdy Tosefta; You said, "Let us stick to facts, and only to facts, Sergeant." That would be fine with me if you played by the same rules too. Unfortunately, you have no difficulty in making predictions, conjectures, extrapolations, projections, wild flights of fancy, and highly dubious conclusions based on absolutely nothing except smoke and mirrors. Who authorized you to run amuck with your personal opinions while at the same time restricting those who disagree with you to "facts only"? Tosefta, your aristocentric arrogance and self-importance does not advance your cause (whatever that is).

you wrote-----"And please exclude the word `pathetic` or anything of that kind. You don`t show much respect for Jews." The term applies to some Jews.Particularily those who refuse to condemn the "Illegal Settlement Expansion",that robs the Palestinian People of their property and homes.Pathetic is really a mild term.I would have something a little closer to the point. What you know about peace Margie I could lodge on the tip of a needle.

You have to educate about peace and the future, not complain and say there will be violence if I dont get what I want. Thats like talking to a violent child or worse, animal. Here is some simple advice. Israel was here first. Israel will be here long after the Arabs are gone. All enemies of Israel have disappeared sooner or later while Israel survives. Those who work with Israel thrive. We are VERY patient people and have outlived all adversary through the millenia. Do the arabs want to thrive or disappear? Its their choice.

You are correct.

You are correct, there is alot of tension in israel between two different visions of the country.These underlying agendas are often the unspoken issue when the two camps argue about issues like a Palestinian state.Well said though.

Arab areas to palestine, jewish areas to israel, and some form of sharing in the old city, territorial exchange for say around 3-5% of the west bank.

David I don't want to rehash the whole episode,and you so properly siad all there is to be said, and pointless to argue.As I said above enough is enough.We Jews suffered for eons got up,dusted ourselves up and built a nation to be proud of without having to whine while "the never landers" so called palis just ask and have begged ever since,and at the behest of their Arab brothers put them in the position they find themselves in...

As aprecondition to any talks between the Palestinians and the Isras. I don't understand what a Russian citizen is doing here? Blair should call Putin and ask him to send someone to collect his boy..

I started a message and not sure if I sent it or not... I agree with your parameters for peace..unclear if the Israeli Gov. is on board yet..I think they are too beholden to the settlers and the far right elements like this Leiberman fellow. As for "gestopo" tactics...I apologize for the term...I never used it until I started seeing Jewish posters comparing Arafat to Hitler... Both comparisons are totally out of line.

For several years, we've been watching the gradual, creeping legitimization of the principle of involuntary land/population transfers from the Triangle region as part of a future settlement with the Palestinians. What was once considered a racist, anti-democratic concept not fit for polite conversation has slowly gained a measure of legitimacy as a political option, spurred by the appointment of Avigdor Lieberman as Minister of Strategic Affairs in the current government. Even today, there are those that claim such proposals represent mere political posturing, and should not be taken seriously. Today, Ha'aretz reports that Lieberman told Mideast Envoy Tony Blair that "any solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 'must include Israel's Arab citizens as well, when the basis for an agreement should be a land swap and a population transfer'." Israeli democracy is on a very slippery slope, and I'm afraid that some day we may find that it is too late to regain our footing. SAY NO TO TRANSFER NOW, before it's too late.

"Hundreds of millions of displaced people found themselves new homes at the end of WW2 and there are none left: except the Palestinians. People are in the third generation of their new homes now, they`re citizens who`ve almost forgotten where they came from originally: except the Palestinians." How terribly unaccommodating of them! What you admire in the Jews, you condemn in the Palestinians. Pathetic.

I couldn't believe when I read an article at Ynet a couple of days ago and read what they are calling him. They are calling him Beilin number two. I could not understand the sudden change in the man.Funny business politics...

Hi Jacob, the tensions are very high now Jacob.The present palestinian leadership is on trial for their political lives, their is ALOT riding on this.Of course their comments are not the best, however we should take it as a warning.This doesnt mean that israel has to accept all their demands as is "or else" of course not, nor does anybody in the moderate arab world or international community expect that.What is needed is for Abbas to go home with some real gains.Hamas sits like hyennas waiting for the carnage to feed on.This really is a very crucial crossroads, and israel must do all it can logically, to make headway.Regards always a pleasure.

Has the second one come suddenly to an end?

Sorry Margaret, I should tremendous respect for the Jewish people. Because you are Jewish does not give you the honor of my unflinching support for your inability to put forth productive ideas for peace. Exactly what aspects am I talking about? Well, for starters, let's talk about borders and the status of Jerusalem, particularly the Old City and East Jerusalem. BTW, a large number of Palestinian refugees found homes and made residence in their host countries. Unfortunately, your worldview is narrowed by official Israeli propaganda. You can't seem to think outside the box defined by the official Israeli narrative.

The Arrow system and Sderot

I couldnt agree more with you.There are also two examples for israel to look at.One is the French in algeria or the british in ireland.Will israel leave after negotiating like the british in ireland, or will it fight to the end and be forced out in disaster as the french.What many dont seem to understand that the two state solution if not negotiated will be imposed on israel.There is no way all the big intrests of all the big players is just going to be put on hold as israel fights its eternal war to keep Tekoa and ariel in israel for ever.I am glad to see there will be internal israeli pressure on the govt, it has often worked in the past, we need to breakthrough.Bless all your very good work Tzfonit regards.

Guido So you think the settlers would not want to be living with the palis.You have this backward Guido(whoever you are)The fact of the matter for you to concider is that in the Arab countries there are no Jews.They are Judenrein, and the same would be in the(neverland yet to be stablished if ever)Palestine. Think about it before you use your key board..

"Hamas....is on its knees trying to survive in any condition." Er...unless something extraordinary has happened in the last hour or so, Kipperraes, I believe Hamas are still in undisputed control of Gaza, strengthening their grip on the place, receiving supplies of armaments for the coming IDF invasion, preparing their defences. I see no sign that they are "on their knees". This is pure wishful thinking on your part.

Israel's paralysis on peace talks is not a dilemma of land for security. It resides in its inability to grow beyond a religious identity and into a secular one. Where it could lead the ME by example and set the most democratic, most advanced, and most tolerant nation in the region, it is digging itself into an intolerant and racist ghetto that only mirrors the worst of its neighbours. Land will ultimately get back into Pals hands. By Law or by Force. Neither its settlements nor its ethnic displacement of Arab population outside of its future recognized borders will ensure the safety of Israel. That safety will come from within, when it will be able to accept an Israeli identity based on a pluralistic society and treat all its constituents equally. Only then can it differentiate from its neighbors, be the light of the ME and achieve a true Eretz Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates.

S Nobody and I mean no body has had a good word to say on the upcoming Annapolis gathering that will cucceed.I read it at Washington Post a couple of days ago,and it does not come as a surprise to anyone of what it outcome will be. And it is yet to begin anyway....

Vladimir, You forgot Ariel Sharon.

jews should reject Arab plan and Road Map for fear to become refugees as Gaza forcefully transfered evacuees , Assyrians , Babylonians , Romans send into exile only the jews that formed the elite of Israel , WQhether elite or not , Kadima in 2005 has forcefully transferred all ,

The next gang of fools cant be any worse!?

A.Sweden They are not asking much poor things are they? ROr,and the rest of the demands.Will they ever learn that Israel wasn't born yesterday and the audacity of announcingof the coming of the intifada.Oh I am shivering in my shoes. What mentality and the reference of bloodshed, A blood shed?when did the blood shed expired? I think I'll go dream like Esther And wake up with a BUMP!

Why do not you look around? Since your name is not Sitting Bull or Jose Ignacio you are living on the land that was claimed as a spoil of war (which your country didn`t start of course). Do not you think that for a guy living on the land that was ethnically cleansed for him by his father your speaking down from the higher moral ground attitude is ridiculous? By the way, if I substitute Israel for the US in your sentence it will still make perfect sense. Here it goes:" It`s lucky those wars came along or US would be a lot smaller in land area today."

I said: "There have been an awful lot of generals in the Israeli government in the last 60 years." I wasn't counting only the PMs.

'Everyone in the world' was busy finding somewhere to settle for themselves. They weren't worrying about the Arabs from Israel. Hundreds of millions of displaced people found themselves new homes at the end of WW2 and there are none left: except the Palestinians. People are in the third generation of their new homes now, they're citizens who've almost forgotten where they came from originally: except the Palestinians. I've discussed peace at length with my friends, Ibrahim. Exactly what aspect are you asking about? And please exclude the word 'pathetic' or anything of that kind. You don't show much respect for Jews.

then they must be prepared to make concessions. Jews have been ethnically cleansed from the vast Arab lands, area in which the Jews live prior to the Arab conquest. Now, Jews have been expelled from those lands and cornered in tiny Israel. But this was not enough for the Arabs who have waged continuous war and terrorism against the Jews for over 100 years. The Arabs lost those wars. Now, if they wish peace it is the Arabs who must concede strategic land so that the Jews can live in peace and security in their tiny country. Anything else will lead to war, not peace. Of course, the Arabs have no desire for peace, the so called "peace process" is a weapon being used against Israel, just as the so called "palestinians" are a make believe nation. The world is growing tired of Arabs and Muslims, and their endless violence, terrorism, angry demands and lies. Clearly it is impossible to live in peace with Arabs in any state except an oppressive dictatorship.

"It's lucky those wars came along or Israel would be a lot smaller now." Is that supposed to be sarcasm? There's a wall at Latrun with thousands of names on it. Every one the names of another dead Israeli, killed in those wars they didn't want. Our families could have liveed just fine in a smaller Israel, if it would have kept our loved ones alive and well. Unfortunately, the Arabs - for whom you've appointed yourself a cheerleader - didn't give Israelis that choice before repeatedly attacking them.

I've missed quite a bit in the last few days! I understand the difficulties on the Palestinian population but 'Gestapo Tactics'. No Palestinians are being shipped off to death camps. The term just makes us dig in our heels more and is distracting from real issues where discussion is needed. I hope this summit can be useful. I am concerned at the threat of a thrid infitada if the summit fails. What defines failure? I also would like to see the Jewish refugees of Arab lands compensated. They were forced from their homes without due process circa 1948-1960. But, mostly, I hope that reasonale people can compromise. Peace benefits all more than war. Borders, closely resembling '67 agreed upon. Compensation for (all) refugees and a sharing of Jerusalem that God would be happy with. (Let's not forget our Christian friends). A safe and secure Israel with a willing Palestinian partner could do many great things together. Watch out Asia.

how many generals were israei PM`s? only two, rabin and barak.

Margie is advocating the idea that the settlers become citizens in the Palestinian state. Since the settlers will never agree to this I don't think it is worth one's time thinking about it.

of what you want and develop your economy for your people so they can live well?

Jeff, when you gain just a tiny little bit of political understanding, it might begin to be useful to discuss such matters with you. Otherwise, it remains extremely painful; every exchange becomes an enormous ordeal, trying to explain to the deaf and color blind how colors differ from each other. Let us stick to facts, and only to facts, Sergeant.

I agree with you that I wouldn't expect the Palestinians to remain passive players leading up to the negotiations, and given the public commentaries today from Quiera and yesterday from Abu Mazen show just that. That said, IMHO, today's comments threating a third intifada, unless Israel accedes to the Palestinian's maximalist demands was counter-productive to the entire process. While my 0-2 comment was slightly tongue in cheek, the reality is, that after seven years of fighting, a new war initiated by the Palestinians will be that much worse for them. If Intifada III is going to show an additional escalation, there's only one way to go, and with the anticipated increase in violence, could readily mean the Palestinians facing a real war on their hands, something that will result in real disruption to their lives. IF, the goal is an independent Palestinian state living in peace with Israel as a neighbor, than the threat of a third war, when the second is still smoldering...

It's SOOO easy for people to say "I am not sure Israel wants peace even if the Pals can refrain from terrorism." But, praytell, will the Pals ever actually do it, so that you'd know for sure? On the other hand, I know the Israeli people well enough to be damn sure. The minute it becomes clear that the Pals are done with terrorism, peace will quickly follow.

Anyone with any inteligence can see that there is not the slightest chance for success. Abas can not offer anything at all to Israel. For Israel to retreat constantly without getting anything in return is madness.

Whats your answer?

We all want peace. All of Israel wants peace. There is so much more we could do without the burden of this weighty self defence albatross around our neck. I genuinely believe that most of the people who don't seem to you to want peace are those who are not sure of how it will work and if we won't be getting into an even more worrying security problem. We can't guarantee the outcome.

The death toll, both military and civilian, of The entire al-Aska intifada conflict from 2000-2007 is estimated to be over 4,200 Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis. That is for palestinians less than one month's dead in Iraq. Palestinians have no idea what war is. Israel does. Egypt does. Syria does. Jordan does. When palestinian casulties start to be 3,000 PER WEEK that is war. Palestinians like to make threats because they do not know what war is. In a real war there would be no rifle firing funerals through the street of Jenin or Nablus because those parades would be targets and be turned into funerals themselves. A real war would find them on the East Bank on the outside looking in. But at least they would finally be in Palestine. G-D willing.

The sooner the government gets rid of the liability of Lieberman and cohorts, the better.

"The settlers are in place. I never supported `settlement` but since they are there already we need to deal with the situation. " Margie, Israelis like you said the same about the Gaza settlers... No, the refugee camps were not a good idea, but the in the aftermath of the 1948 war, everyone in the world demanded they be allowed to return...and Israel refused. I take it from your message that you have no constructive ideas for peace except allowing the settlers to remain where they are... Pathetic.

Howdy Tosefta; You place too much emphasis on the identity of the officeholder and not on the office. Who cares that Olmert is the PM of Israel or that Abbas is the Chairman of the PA? Other than some minor personal influence, they cannot betray the fundamental duties of their office. In the long run, it makes no difference who the officeholder is. Olmert could lose a vote of no confidence in the Knesset and be replaced or Abbas assassinated and replaced by somebody else, but that would not alter the basic negotiating positions of either Israel or the PA to any significant degree. Contrary to popular opinion, the captain of the ship-of-state cannot reverse its course on a dime although he/she might be able to adjust the course two points to starboard or to leeward and change the speed. When you have a 45,000-ton battleship steaming at 30 knots, its awfully hard to get it to turn about no matter who the captain is.

"Why do they not regard us as equals, but rather as those who should be the exclusive compromisers?" Only Israelis and their cheerleaders would think that returning something which was stolen is having to compromise. I think we've all had enough of Israel's claim that land was not stolen it was claimed as a spoil of war (which it didn't start of course). It's lucky those wars came along or Israel would be a lot smaller in land area today.

Imposing draconian security measures while refusing to deal with the political issues is the problem. I understand Israel's need for security, but can not accept their complete refusal to deal seriously for a final solution that is a just comprimise for both parties. It is that simple.

all arabs are in dreams. i remember going to international fair in 82 in nashville tennecy where biggest pavillion was of saudy arabia with goals to reach by 1995: modern industry, supér military industry with production of most modern jets and missiles, to change to highest level of education and research in science and tech. etc. and believe me there were idiots that bought that crap. where all goals are today 12 years after the date?

Britain endorsement of Arab plan is part of Saudi pressure to blow up Brit-Saudia weapons deal in wich Brits officials were bribed by Saudia . the State Departement under Condi endorsement of Arab plan led to the late US-Arabs-Saudia weapons deals , Arabs always threatens US to buy Russian weapons . "the collapse of the coalition and the government in Israel" may be prevented should the arab plan with US Road Map is officially rejected .These plans are anyway the twisted arab version of UN 242 . Only the increase of Jewish Settlements are the obstacle to war . such move is the correct response against the Gaza disengagement desasters , Blessed be the jewish settlers and jewish settlements with success and from success to success .

Your friend Mr Lincoln told you, 'Mission Accomplished' & 'Too late '. Or are you both nuts ? All that happend, Abbas said what we have all heared before. Lincoln said it is a Victory for Al-Qaeda. He is right if things will go that way.But,How the House of Saude will accept that? Search Mark ? However, for all my money the Wheels of Truth just start rolling. The entire situation was diverted by this Intifatha and that Intifatha.. Intifath is where Children play. Now the time for Men to enter the fray. It is WAR this time Children must go indoor. And those who won many Wars will win the last War.

It is a sad time. Palestine can not find the right people to build up a coherent, respectable and peaceful government. The foundation of such an institution is a must. The Chamber of Commerce, the Red Crescent, and later political organizations were not successful to crystallize a believable government. The will is there, the luck is missing. All Palestinians must hear this message, and must respond to it. Have a coherent functioning government! The Israeli presence is making it more difficult, but the task is fully in the court of all Palestinians.

Failure to offer an opportunity for a negotiated settlement will indeed make Hamas stronger, but success in doing so will not only strengthen Abbas, it will completely undermine Hamas' reason for existence. I envision Hamas losing a lot of ground in the Palestinian street if there is an option for fostering additional negotiations. Much better than escalating the situation in Gaza which will lead us nowhere. It is definitely time to make a move, as I don't know if we will get a chance at the negotiating table again. One Million Voices to End the Conglict - Simultaneous demonstrations in Tel Aviv and Jericho October 18th www.onemillionvoices.org

It is never brought up by any Israeli government. The numbers debated are between 800,000 to 900,000+ Jewish refugees expelled across North Africa - Egypt,Syria,Yemen, Iraq, etc., where they had been living before the idea of Islam sparkeled on mohammed's sword. No one discusses it. No one mentions it. Possibly because the Jewish refugees were welcomed and integrated into Israel by Israel without any fanfare, speeches, demonstrations or assistance from the UN or anyone else. Interestingly, Israel got the last laugh- as usual- when these Moroccoan, Tunisian, Yemenite, Iraqi, etc. Jews joined the IDF and helped defend Israel. The majority of the Jewish population in Israel today stems from these refugees and not from European Jews. Now ,both you and the punk president of Iran learned something.

My point is it take two to dance. Abu Mazen and his Pals are not the only dancer. Israel is a dancer too and I am not sure Israel wants peace, even if the Pals can refrain from terrorism. I think from your posts you want peace if Pals stop terrorism and grant them a state of their own but powerfull forces in Israel think otherwise, in particular settlets and other religious zionists, (parts of) IDF and security/intelligence community.

Which poison pill do you think is more pallatable : The one offered by Abb(ass) or Haniya. Does a suit an a smile count? The fact is that until and unless the Arabs learn Governance and disarm all the (clan) militias, give up on ROR and have a leader who can deliver an end to conflict there is nothing to even talk about. Settlements are just an excuse to do nothing by the Arabs. Danite is either naive or demented but in any case has no clue, other than hatred for the Orthodox and Nationalists and maybe all Israelis who are not Leftists.

with the weapons that US gave them , with the weapons that Jordan and Egypt transferred to them with Israeli accord under US pressure , And pals would also help themselves with the prisoners that Israel released under what it is portrayed as "Israeli goodwill gesture" wich is a cover for violation of counter terrorism policies . We should also keep in mind the 80 arabs terrorists that Egypt lately let into Gaza , The Israel' right to self defense and consideration of public order and safety will surely be twisted again by Human rights groups and be portayed as 'Disproportional' compare to these upcoming pals 'firework show' . arab network of terror and arab terror supporters will again be described as "civilians' , 'civilians infrastructures' , Arabs will again shouts for Int'l intervention ect... ect... Arabs kids will again be encouraged to participate so arabised G.Levy could demonize Israel ect... ect... Whether 3rd of 4th arab insurrections , or arabs threats of violence and arabs violations of public orders and safety , Whether Arabs plan or US Road Map , is all part war/peace circle , peace being understood by arabs as a time to rest , rearm , train just so to wage war again , Consequently Arab plan ans US Road Map are just drugg to drowse names as a cover to arabs lust for blood , Lefties are jealous of arabs mentality , arabs dictatorships , lefties envy arab culture and resources , lefties exploit your democracy to undermine your democracy . lefties are pawns of Al Qaida school of thought , Lefties sing Hatikva the Israel national anthem thru the arabs perspective , An eye watches towards Zion , with next year in Jerusalem ( as a reference to a pal capital in Jerusalem ) .

Chris, if the west needs to defeat Islamic fundamentalism - and I agree it does - the question is 'what kind of deal?' Obviously not a deal that permits Islamic fundamentalism to persist in the PA. If Abbas is not willing to really shut down those terrorists associated with his own Fatah, much less Hamas, then any paper deal with him will be negated by subsequent events, ie terrorist acts. Another question: is this summit really about a deal to reduce Islamic fundamentalism, or just to create the illusion that the Bush, Olmert, and Abbas governments are making progress towards peace?

In 1937, the British government appointed a Royal Commission, directed by Earl Peel, the secretary of state for India, which concluded the Mandate for Palestine was unworkable and recommended partition. The Palestinian Arabs "rejected partition out of hand." (Gelvin, The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, Cambridge U. Press, 2005, p. 117). "Under the [1937] Peel Commission, the Palestinians would have received 80% of the territory between the river and the sea; under the 1947 UN partition Plan, 45%; under Camp David, around 20%." (Halevi, Pattern of Palestinian Rejectionism, July 12, 2004, Jewish World Review). What do you reckon they'll get after a third intifada?

"Mission Accomplished" Mark Lincoln. Those who laugh last are the winners Mr Lincoln. The enimies of Israel can only make damage. They can't win Wars. How you are ignorant of History Mr Lincoln. Read Napoleaon. Study Hitler. Remember Nasser. Ponder about Stalin. And think..think well about the Jews one step from the Oven. You miss G-d in all of your calculations and that is why you are always wrong. Keep using your small brain and keep sending signals;this tells us where the enemy in.

pals will have many more intifadas. and liberman is right, permanent borders but with almost full transfer of arabs to pal. state and jews to israel there is no other way or transfer all arabs to jordan which is my preference. we cannot live together with vermin like pals and they consider us vermin and murderers. let'separate and live everyone in his/her state. and i would like to see pa after 20 years or 50? total slams and misery for 95%.

But it is true. The claims of Jewry against most Arab states is staggering. U guys r so busy reciting Israeli "sins" because u dont wasnt to face ur own.

have not heard anyone say this. But it sounds rational. Question: Was it a by-product of another policy or a core policy?

It's closer to the truth than the wild stories 600 000 arab refugees from Israel and of 500 villages erased when most of them still exist when the list is compared with the current map. It's just that the Jews don't WHINE so much. The greasy wheel gets the most oil, but it also gets kicked a lot.

"Report: Qureia warns failed Mideast summit may spark third intifada" ed. Never, No more intifadas. This time WAR. Itifada was for your Children. War is for our IDF. You treated Israel like mugs. This time Israel will treat you for what you are. Have more children to have more shields. Have more burgas so you will hide like women. You are grown up now and you legitimize War. As for Blair : Time you read your history: And re-read your Churchill White Paper 1922. You carved the land to make room for your stoge. The Emir of Hujaz and make him a client garisson that you called Transjordan. That is the Land of the Palestinians. Time you confess for the truth Mr Blair if you are a true Catholic. You have your lies. We have our G-d.

hello jeff, if this fails and makes abbas look bad, he wont have a leg to stand on and the last man standing will be hamas.Time to make a move.

We cannot expect the palestinians just to sit there and take whatever olmert wants to do,this occupation must end, we all know the shape of the end game, either Israel gets real or hamas will triumph in the Palestinian mind and abbas will lose.I dont need to tell you the consequnces.Regards

You have misunderstood what I said. The generals to whom I referred were people like Dayan, Rabin, Barak and many, many more. They had made their reputation in the IDF and had then become politicians. Civilians now, but still with very intimate military connections. BTW, I know Olmert is an exception to this and that may be a reason why he is not trusted by the army and is so unpopular.

The palestinians ahve two voices calling them, one is abbas who is saying "be patient negotiations are the best way" and hamas who is saying "only violence and islam can work" Israel must face the two following facts.Not giving the palestinians a chance for a negotiated settlement is going to make the voice of hamas stronger and probably totaly discredit abbas.While Israel adopt realistic end games and make real progress at the talks,if not the consequnces will be far reaching.

"Close to 1,000,000 expelled from Arab nations with all property and wealth taken as punishment for Israel`s success of survival." This is such a wild exageration and twisting of the facts that it's just not true. I suppose it's what is called 'hasbara'.

The whole purpose of the intifada was to reverse the slow and peaceful integration of palestinian economy and society with isreali economy and society (remember the long-lost days when Jerico was a major tourist destination for isrealis, when tens of thousands of palestinians worked every day in Israel, and palestinian local councils cooperated with israeli security forces?). The intifadas did as its leaders intended and never have palestinians been so isolated from israeli economy and society. Another intifada may kill a few people (mostly palestinians) but it cannot produce much more separation that already exists.

A simple Question. Why does Israel NEVER threaten the Palestinians? It may be that Israel does harrass the Palestinians but dont they deserve it when the least chance they get they will send their suicide-bombers to murder hundreds of Jewish people. So that the Jewish people are in their rights to defend their country and their people from terror.

close the arc with tears in our eye. "Avigdor Lieberman:Peace talks could bring about government's collapse" Ed Only that can bring back the smile And made the arc, open and shine. This Government touches the Jewish conscience The way Hitler did it before. An immorale government through and through. What about the President ? Silent like the sphinx. The architect of doom. He never gave Israel Only days of gloom.

Close to 1,000,000 expelled from Arab nations with all property and wealth taken as punishment for Israel's success of survival. But might as well put everything on the table. When it is seen in its full complexity, idiots like Abbas and Olmert and hopefully the EU and the US will realize the absurdity of creating another Palestine when one exists already-Jordan. And let''s not forget Palestine III- Gaza under the Islamo-fascist Hamas.

According to your Arabist ZSA viewpoint, you will stay where you are and ruled by the Muslims as a DHIMMI. But that is your wish and not mine. You are not a Zionist and never were. But I do suggest that "YOUR" PISS loving Arabs will throw you our PASSPORT or Not. Maybe you will join your "Arab" paramour and sperm donor in one of the Arab villages in Israel OOPS I meant Tel Aviv-Arab Republic of Palestine

"....generals are in charge of the government most of the time" is utter nonsense! The generals have an advisory role to the government, just like any other Western democracy. The IDF charter specifically orders all soldiers to uphold democracy; the only situation where the IDF may challenge the executive, would be if a dictator where to take control of the Knesset - very unlikely... BTW: Olmert was not a military man per se.

Ibrahim, missiles are missiles. They're meant to kill. The settlers are in place. I never supported 'settlement' but since they are there already we need to deal with the situation. Do you think it was a good idea to have refugee camps keeping people deliberately in limbo for sixty years?

"bring me closer to joining the Botanical Artists of Canada..." Smadar Madame, Could you please expand on the subject?

Howdy Ibrahim; "A third intifaddeh would be a disaster." For the Palestinians. "It would expose the aparthied wall as useless..." The security barrier has proven to be quite effective in preventing terrorist incursions into Israel. I may have to reappraise my assessment of it after you have counted the number of bullet-ridden, martyred, Palestinian Jihadists extracted from the barbed wire. "...many dead civillians..." About 10 times more Palestinian civilians than Israeli civilians. "...and God only knows what the Israelis will do to the civillian population this time around..." The usual which is about 1 civilian for every combatant which is a very good ratio especially when the enemy is imbedded in the civilian population. "The Israelis are complete fools to force these draconian security measures endlessly without any effort to deal with the core issues..." The Israelis would be even bigger fools if they relaxed their security measures during a conflict

If the rest of the world ie the Quartet agree that whatever is the best way forward to achieve peace in the region. Then Israelis and Palestinians will be required to do it. Liebermann can be ignored his authority is made up of Russian Jews who appear to spend their spare time drawing Swastikas on any flat surface they can find. If he walked out of the coalition it wouldn't collapse those who follow Israeli politics know that his party hasn't recovered from the scandal of made up degrees last year. We can speculate over what can be achieved next month, but at the end of the day if the Quartet place on the table what is required both sides will sign up. They literally cannot afford not to. Israel and Palestine need foreign money to survive Israel needs favoured trading status with the EU It will be relatively easy to persuade Israel or Palestine to comply. Remember the west needs a deal to defeat Islamic Fundamentalism, this is what this is all about.

There have been an awful lot of generals in the Israeli government in the last 60 years. I know how you explain it - universal military service, defence such an important sector, etc., - but the fact remains that the generals are in charge of the government most of the time. Maybe that's why Olmert's so unpopular.

"Protecting the Pals` egos is less important than our lives and the possible repercussions of a terror attack from an independant Pal state." If you were honest, let's face it, you personally would never be able to trust the Palestinians. If you disagree with that judgement, tell me how long it would take for you before a Palestinan state could be allowed to go free. BTW, I think that the Palestinian negotiators have greater concerns than their own egos.

lost generatioin

What's your point? that it's pointless to make agreements with Israel? Are you advising the Palestinians to abandon the attempt?

...a statement saying: Any pal'n cought with any kind of weapon in his hands(stone is a weapon also) will risk to be send to alla imidiately. That is not a threat, but a worning only. And I would love Israel to strictly follow that statement. In short pal's are free to start any intifadas in the farmost from Israel muslim/arabic/moronic lands or on the Moon. Regards...

The Lieberman factor explains much of Olmert's behavior. Lieberman is an extreme rightwinger who would not agree to anything even approaching the "wall" as border, to say nothing of anything close to the 67 borders. This is why the Lieberman party joined the coalition only after the Lebanon war which rendered Olmert's original plan of the "wall" as border inoperative. Olmert needs Lieberman in order to deter Labor from leaving the coalition while expecting new elections. It raises the possibility that the government will survive without Labor. At the same time, as long as Lieberman is needed, Olmert can make no realistic promises to the Palestinians and needs to speak in imprecise and vague language. Olmert is no Barak; he will not risk his political survival just to attain a peace agreement. Not worth it for him. The result is a guaranteed failure for the present peace process. It is unfortunate for Israel that this incompetent is out Prime Minister.

As usual Mr Doom and Gloom posts again. Clickfool who told us Hamas will come out the winner is on its knees trying to survive in any condition. Every time something happens his posts with Indrajaya and others are usually 100% wrong. The only time we ever saw Click on the side of reason was when the British soldiers were kidnapped by Iran.

By discounting the rockets that Palestinians shoot at Israelis in violation of the international laws that Guido undoubtedly counts himself a supporter of, Guido demonstrates that he places little value on the lives of Israelis and still less on their right to reside in peace with the undisputed borders of Israel. Guido, please try to understand if Israelis aren't swayed by your "argument".

Intifadas have been sold to the world as spontaneous uprisings compelled by an irresistable upswelling of rage from the vaunted Arab street (which can never seem to be found engaging in any such spontenaity in opposition to actual totalitarian rule in e.g. Syria). We can see from this warning, if anyone could not see it before, that the terrorist activities called 'intifadas' are noting of the sort, and instead are acts of organized terrorism and war by the Palestinian leadership, such as it is.

If Abu MAzen can control the terrorists this time and refrain them from attacks after a "peace agreement", I am sure Israeli special opps will start assasinating Pal leaders, in order to get a response and then they will put the blame on the Pals again. This happened before.

...in Sderot: "...toy rockets do zero damage and have zero impact on dayly life in Israel." Report back to us after, say, 2 weeks visiting kindergartens & houses in the Western part of town; maybe take along Clickfool the ignorant for the ride. Actually, I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to your ridiculous post.

MK Avigdor Lieberman proves clearly that he's out of touch with reality, anti-reconciliation with the Arab world, and not a man of peace for the region or the Jewish people. If he doesn't want to commit to the Washington summit with announcing the decision on the core issues and recognize the beginning of negotiations between the Israel and the Palestinians, then resign from Cabinet. This man wants to prolong conflict and perpetuate the status quo which is unacceptable for Israel's security as well as Jewish Diaspora security. It's very frustrating that this member of Knesset has a platform and dictates a failed path for us. PS. Such failure will definitely bring me closer to joining the Botanical Artists of Canada instead of lobbying for peace in the ME. Why waste anymore time if we listen to extremist like Lieberman?

Simple the Arabs will not comprise on any issue, they haven't yet. Second they won't fulfill their obligations, again they never have.

Poor Click, Durson, et al. The inability of the usual suspects who rant daily to deplore IDF violence, even when directed against people shooting rockets at civilians, to speak a word in opposiion to threats of terrorism that make a mockery of the concept of "peaceful" negotiations undermines what credibility any such people may have had left.

I suppose anything is possible. But, WW3 won't happen over a failure at Annopolis. The expectations are pretty low all around. I do expect a spike in violence. I do not expect the Israeli response will be as tepid as it was a few years back. The arab outcry will spew but hamas and fatah don't command much respect or admiration even in the arab world. At least not enough respect or admiration for any outside nations to go to war for them.

Sir, Most of the posters do not post under their real names/addresses. Tosefta is a savant of Tora and Commentaries and undoubtly operates within Jewish cultural traditions and as such deserves all respect. As you can see he is also part of the Left and generally shares in their ideological blindness and keeps their standard positions. He does have an issue with Jews - I consider this to be an extension of Oedipus Reb complex. Let wish him well

Howdy Ivar; You said, "Failure at this juncture will forever close the doors to peace with the Israelis, leading to escalation of every conflict in the Middle East, and World War Three." That's what the Arabs have been saying for the past 60 years, and yet, the threats have never materialized (above the usual level of violence in the Middle East). I think that you and the Arabs are bluffing again. OK, let's call your bluff. I'm sick and tired of the capitulate-to-our-demands-or-else diplomacy of the Arabs. Let's see what the "or else" is, but I think that it is nothing more than a lot of hot air. The only thing that a third intifada would accomplish would be one-hell-of-a-lot of dead Palestinians plus a few dead Israelis to no purpose.

How can the coference succeed, when bi-lateral issues are mixed with multi-lateral ones.ie borders, refugees, and water rights.realistically,the international community should put its money where its mouth is,and spend a fraction of what it spends on war,spend on peace.A confederation between Jordan and the PNA,will allow Jordan to re-settle its Palestinian refugees on the west bank with adequate finacial assistance and investment from the international community to itself, PNA, and the refugees themselves.As for the rest of the Palestinian refugees, their problem can be solved with similar finaccial and investments arrangements,but by expanding Jordan's borders to the Anbar in Iraq,and settleing the Palestinian refugees into that developed region with Intarnational help.There is no harm also,in paying for the running costs, with a portion of the Iraqi oil returns.Israel can in turn, take back a limited number of refugees among the elderly Palestinians.

Jeff, you're 100% correct. if palestinians are not willing to give in a little bit, this "negotiation" will not be in israels favor and therefore status quo will prevail. i hope palestinians are smart enough to realize its their children's future at stake

These toy rockets do zero damage and have zero impact on dayly life in Israel. Don't present them as WMD's. I think firing these toy rockets is stupid but I can understand the frustration of the Gazans. They are completely locked up and are used by the IDF/IAF as live targets for their video game style training sessions. If you were truly honest you could understand this too. Do you condemn the actions of the inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto against their tormenters? I am sure you will claim the IDF/IAF provocations would stop if there would be no rockets but this is false as can be seen in the West Bank (to remind you again: there are supposedly peace negotiations going on).

Margie does not understand that the Palestinians cannot supprress militancy while Israel continues colonizing their territory. She wants the Palestinians to police the militants so that Israel can continue expanding settlements without trouble. Pathetic.

intifadas are certainly getting old. they should be acompanied by a song or a dance.. perhaps children wearing masks and dragging weapons around... wait, they already have that!

Suggest you look up "missile" in dictionary.....

Last I checked, the second one was still up and running. You would think that after and 0-2 record in intifada's that Ahmed Qureia would try for something other than the old "give Abu Mazen everything he asks for or we will commit to more violence'. Definately not a way to secure the idea that the Palestinians are ready to live in peace with Israel.

That's a bit strong, isn't it? Ivar, I thought you were an optimist! Reality check: WW3 ain't about to break out - neither is ME peace. Intafada 3? Sounds like the pals have a death wish. More qassams, more suicide bomb attempts, more killing, more economic embargoes by Israel. This will of course affect Israel, but not nearly as badly as the pals. They should be careful what they threaten....

The last time I asked, you suggested we go back to the Iron Fist Israeli Occupation of the 1980s. Please, for once, tell us your ideas for a realistic peace deal. You spend so much time defending Israel, the settlers...very little time producing any ideas. I for one condemn the qassams (which by the way, are NOT "missiles")...but they pale in comparison to the gestop tactics of the Israelis, imposed on an entire civillian population.

and Stalin and all other "horrible???" nationalists who protected their national interests first and formost .... THERE is no other way to live.....

and Stalin and all other "horrible???" nationalists who protected their national interests first and formost .... THERE is no other way to live.....

A third intifaddeh would be a disaster. It would expose the aparthied wall as useless...many dead civillians...and God only knows what the Israelis will do to the civillian population this time around.... The Israelis are complete fools to force these draconian security measures endlessly without any effort to deal with the core issues... The Isareli Occupied Territories are a pressure cooker....

is to threaten Israel with a THIRD INTAFADA!

what they whine for. Either you give us all we want or we mutilate your children in your city buses, and pizzerias, butcher to pieces your women in markets and your youth on cafes and discotheques, your elderly in Passover dinners. What a unique display of democracy is Erakat giving, what an example of how differnt from hamas he really is ! I am so marveled !

The Annapolis Summit can't "fail" or "succeed" because its purpose is just to find some common ground that everybody can agree on as a basis for future negotiations. People who expect a final peace agreement to come out of the Summit within 6 mo. after it is over are going to be disappointed and call it a failure whereas those who only expect that an agreement to continue negotiations based on "general principles" will call it a success. The problem is that both sides will have to be convinced that they would be better off with a peace agreement than with just continuing the status quo instead. Certainly, the Palestinians would be better off with a state of their own no matter where the border winds up being, but if the Palestinians demand too much, then Israel would be better off with the situation as it is until those demands are modified and the Palestinians are willing to make some concessions of their own too.

If there are missiles being launched into Israel daily along with mortar fire -- as there are daily and have been for YEARS -- I would expect you to condemn this action as much as you condemn any actions by Israel if you are sincere in your claim to be on the side of justice.

Israel should not go to a summit "under duresse",under threats of a third "intifada" if the summit fails...Off course if the islamofacists don't have everything they demand,that's to say: the moon and the stars,for them the summit w'll be a failure,and the war w'll go on...They don't want an agreement.They don't want a State of Israel,period...Let's give them the East Bank,or HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I must say I admire your optimism! Sadly, I fear facts on the ground, including 3 lame ducks and a hornets nest of jihad, will present an insurmountable problem. I hope I'm wrong....

As you say, it's us voters who are being let down. The funny games go on because no-one ever intended the conference to be anything else but a photo-op. Anyone laying bets yet that it won't take place at all?

if olmert and co are serious about peace, a single biggest willful gesture they can make to abbas is a good ground sweep of gaza from the filth that has been ruling it for over a year. without gaza's ground operation, there is no chance for peace

palestinians are demanding many things these days... 67 borders, route connecting wb and gaza, right of return, jerusalem, release of murderers from jails and tax revenues however in return they haven't even mentioned peace! so far, all i hear is blackmail calls for new intifada in case this summit fails. at this point i think its in israel's favor for this summit to fail simply because palestinian expectations are way too high. if they want peace they should start with cleaning up their own society from the garbage that runs around in the streets with ak47's and teach kids peace in schools. unfortunately this is the only way real peace will happen. why is it that all of israel haters on this site never ever mention a single word about palestinian responsibility for their own actions? after all, it is only their actions that undermine peace in the first place!

it will happen anyway.

What threats are Israel making in an attempt for intimidate the Palestinians? Becasue all I've seen on the other side are continued demands and threats which if not ahered to are punishable by death (new intifada). Does this seem to be coming from anyone interested in peace? All they interested is in radiating a tough image to their fellow Arabs - doesn't do much good in Palestinian Israeli relations. Why do they not regard us as equals, but rather as those who should be the exclusive compromisers?

Ron, your pedestrian thinking leads in the proverbial circle of those lost in the woods. There is an existential urgency to the present situation, which demands resolution. Failure at this juncture will forever close the doors to peace with the Israelis, leading to escalation of every conflict in the Middle East, and World War Three.

"Senior Fatah official and former Palestinian prime minister Ahmed Qureia warned Thursday that if the upcoming regional peace summit does not yield results, Palestinians are likely to respond with a third, more intensified uprising, Army Radio reported." Are communications of this kind supposed to make Israel tremble with fear? Do declarations like this that carry inherent threats the only things Arabs are capable of? Is this the way of Islam - either you do what I say or I'll kill you? Are Abbas' demads commensurate with the goals of a peace conference? My questions are what right do the Palestinians have to threaten Israel at all- and why doesn't Israel make a few threats of its own? Seems to me that

See how different Israel is compared to Canada. Here there are no splinter groups. There are talks but there is no hope for indigenous people. All the agreements signed and verbal are constantly violated by the government. Look how nice Canada is when compared even to SA: "...only 0.4 per cent of Canadian land is set aside for Indians to live on, while 13.7 per cent of South African territory forms its reserves for 74 per cent of the population." "Although many Indians believe that reserves are legally their property, the Indian Act states that the title to reserves is vested in the Crown. This legal relationship with the federal government concerns Indians, who believe that the status of Indian lands is in jeopardy as long as legal title remains outside Indian control. The Indian Act forbids the "surrender" and sale of reserve land by an Indian or a band to anyone other than the Crown."

What they don't like to do is engage in any activity that actually would promote a positive view of them by Israel. What has the plaestinian 'or else' negotiations amounted to except more dead people on both sides. Abbas say he wants to retire. Do it now and spare everyone more grief. It lokks like israel will have to wait more generations for a palestinian to emerge who doesn't call for 'Death to the Zionists'.

Peace does not exist with Islamist-Jihadists. As Islamist-Jihadist scholar Omar Abdel Rahman points out, "there is a whole surah called 'Spoils of War.' There is no surah called 'Peace.' Jihad and killing are the head of Islam. If you take them out, you cut off the head of Islam." Cowing to external pressures and manipulations and giving in to the usurpation demands of the Islamist-Jihadists will not generate peace. It only provides a logistical enhancement to the Islamist-Jihadists to get close to the heart of Israel for their missiles and terrorisms to bombard and terrorize Israel in fulfillment of their Manifesto of destroying Israel. In turn, this will spark a War of Survival for Israel which will entail the reliberation of its usurped biblical and historic territories. Not satisfying the demanad of the ravenous wolves may also make them incite violence. However, between a major War of Survival and quelling Islamist-Jihadist violence, the latter is the lesser evil.