At least 10 killed as Hamas forces seize Fatah HQ in northern Gaza Strip

Your assumption isn't holding water. Look at the latest news.

In YOUR opinion Corrie's name was good. In mine, she was a nutjob. Though, to give here some merit, she's was a lot more sincere than Maureen Ann & Dutch, who volunteered to become Human Shields and are still hiding safely at home, in Australia & the U.S.

DON'T BE CHILDISH BY PUTTING OUT MY COMPLAINTS INSTEAD.OH!I GET IT,YOU ARE SNORRING AND ARE NOW ON AUTO-PILOT EH? WELL,BE GOOD ENOUGH TO PUT THE REQUESTED#464 Tosefta.

Yesterday I also sent one to our dear lady Marilyn.But I want the one I sent to Tosefta!!

Jebediah Let me in to a secret.Forstly you misspelled your name above.Okay not to worry. On another respone:Howare you "Clickfool", "Don't forget Stuff","Empathy" and now lastly "Jebediah Sprigfield"WOW What a cheek Clicky! You can fool the people some of the time,and some of the people all of the time,BUT YOU CANNOT FOOL THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME!!! P/S You shouldn't have mentioned Tony Blair! this gave the game away. HahHaha HAAAA********

"Maybe "watching the circus" is a lapsus that describes well your inherent attitude towards the tragic, complex conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.. Or is that posturing?" - Claudia Or maybe it is referring to the situation where both are suggestions are adopted, the Palestinians using Warsaw Ghetto terms and Israel using Shahid terminology? Or just to give four choices, how about (d) None of the above. Interesting last name, Claudia. Are you related to the Luria family? In any case, I will use the opportunity to greet you officially as a newcomer to these forums. We need more people who even heard of the Tosefta.

It was short but sweet. Dana, my inclination is not to resort to conspiracy theories if things can be explained in a natural way. Olmert has shown great incompetence in the recent crises (which he actually started), so one more mistake is not surprising. I left a message for TimR on the BB referendum forum. If you can call his attention to it, that will be fine. I prefer not to get into prolonged arguments in areas were I am a relative expert and the other side lacks basic information. Let him learn and discuss things with people who are at his level. Regards to you to and I hope we communicate more.

Honestly, Jasmine, there are days when I wouldnt mind, if my name would be printed a little bit less. Believe it or not, but some people still have to earn their living....:) By the way, was the YES (but...) vote on the Burston referendum 2 days ago a fake, or did you have an enlightenment overnight...??? Just to explain to you: A YES vote would mean no more expansion of your (once ??) beloved settlements....

Hi Danite, there would have been (diplomatic) ways for Israel to influence the situation on the ground in Gaza weeks ago. Unfortunately it's possibly too late by now. Welcome back !!!!

Philippe, the last days have shown us that Arafat was probably right with his fear of a civil war, should he confront Hamas. The problem is that 1992 he may still have had the strength to confront them, that's definitely no longer the case today. And with regard to what I had suggested as an alternative strategy to both Israel and the U.S., please read my # 238 to Michael. No guarantee that it would have worked, but quite sure that the end result wouldn't have been worse than todays.

Ben, that's exactly why I put them also on my "sinner" list, thanks to the courtesy of Gee. I admit, it was a bit late, but at last I did. And with regard to Swiss troops in NATO or the UN: There are none. One more reason to promote their mission...:) Well, actually there are some Swiss blue-helmets in Kosovo, so you see, we don't shy away from our responsibilities.... Call us and we are there.

Lynn, Unilateral withdrawal = Impression of Israel leaving under fire = Smiling face for Meshal Coordinated and negotiated withdrawal = Impression of Israel rewarding the moderates = Smiling face for Abbas That makes (almost) all the difference.

William, believe me, it was our mountains and nothing else, that kept the Germans out. We had hundreds of secret bunkers in there (bunkers not banks...!!!), they had the pontential to wear out the German Wehrmacht. Believe me, they were scared to death...:)

PH: "SO IF YOU HAVE A CUSTOMS UNION WITH ANOTHER COUNTRY IT SIGNIFIES OCCUPATION ??" No, but having the occupying power collect taxes means that she is exercising an authority expressly granted to her by the Hague Regulations 1907. There is no question that the Paris Protocol was an agreement between an occupying power and a local autonomous authority, not an agreement between two sovereign countries. So if Israel continues to collect those taxes under the Paris Protocol then she is still exercising the same authority that was granted her under Article 48. Which means she is still exercising authority under the laws of occupation which, of course, she *wouldn't* be able to if she had ceased to be the occupying power. QED, Paul, she remains the occupying power.

Good analysis.

You clearly have an agenda: and that's not one of belonging to a party or promoting a certain honest line. You enjoy having your name in print and waving your finger in Israel's face and being holier-than-thou. Now you're running quickly to gossip about Israel being responsible for the poor illiterate primitive Palestinians (in your view) who can't do a damned thing for themselves: they can't even have a civil war for themselves without it being Israel's fault. Believe me Swiss-rolypoly we have other interests to occupy us. We don't foment wars among our neighbours. We have every interest in seeing a quiet population on the other side of all our borders.

I am sure that there are many hundreds of thousands of decent and innocent Palestinians, men, women and children who are suffering, and have been for years. But where are they? All I see is teenage boys, posing, showing 32 different ways to hold a rifle

SO IF YOU HAVE A CUSTOMS UNION WITH ANOTHER COUNTRY IT SIGNIFIES OCCUPATION ?? MORE CRAP FROM JOHNBOY

THAT SHE JUMPED ON TO APILE OF SAND WHICH GAVE WAY UNDER HER AND SHE ROLLED UNDER THE D9. HIS EVIDENCE WAS THAT THEY REGULARLY PLAYED TAG WITH DPS AND THER WERE MANY NEAR MISSES

Am I glad that you are back, motek. Posting has been difficult with very irregular hours on Haaretz. Sometimes they would shut down for hours, then put out some forty posts at one time. At least, now you can help with that fool who thought he was in "heaven" because you were away; just imagine, "heaven" while Gaza is burning.

JN: ..."and because the Gaza Strip is not occupied by Israel." JN: "You have committed the logical falacy of assuming that which you are trying to prove"... And you don't see a little, ahem, hypocrisy evident in those two statements, Jeff? Under int'l law a "redeployment" does not end occupation, but a "withdrawal" can. Care to see which word Sharon used in his disengagement plan? A3.1(1) ...The State of Israel will evacuate the Gaza Strip, including all existing Israeli towns and villages, and will redeploy outside the Strip. A3.2(3) ...The State of Israel will evacuate an area in Northern Samaria (Ganim, Kadim, Sa-Nur and Homesh), and all military installations in this area, and will redeploy outside the vacated area. Gosh! Sharon said REDEPLOY, not WITHDRAW, even tho he was quite aware of the legal difference. So why say REDEPLOY? Look up articles B3.1(3) B3.2(2) and you'll find the answer. Go on, Jeff, and tell us what they say.

And, judging from a BBC World interview I saw last night (with a former Palestinian "Minister"), these lunatics still expect money from the West plus even greater Western efforts to solve their domestic problems. What nauseating clap-trap from the world's keenest and most demanding mendicants. They are totally responsible for their own predicament and deserve no more. Impossible I know, but the Gazans and the West Bankers would be materially better off under full Israeli control. As things are, whilst they wait for Hamastan and Fatahstan which are in the offing, they have Thugistan, Crookistan, Cheatistan and Alluselesstalkistan. Anyway, I hope they all enjoy themselves - but at their own dwindling expense - and that their mutual and chronic, bloody enmity lays the foundations for the peace and tolerance that their peculiar creed so often brags of but never actually achieves.

JN: "Art. 48 does not apply since it specifically states 'in the territory occupied' and there are no Israeli tax collectors in the Gaza Strip" Not necessary, Jeffie. Note the relevent article in Sharon's disengagement plan: "10 Economic arrangements" "In general, the economic arrangements currently in operation between Israel and the alestinians shall, in the meantime, remain in force." "These arrangements include, inter alia:" "10(iii) tax and customs envelope arrangements" What's that? Why, it's the Paris Protocol, Jeff: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3113987,00.html "According to them, Israel is bound by international law to uphold this Oslo-era agreement which keeps Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip under one customs envelope" So it doesn't matter that they are not PHYSICALLY inside the Gaza Strip, Jeff. Israel is still collecting taxes, and collecting them under its authority as the Occupying Power. Your argument is no argument at all.

Suppose ina few days (or hours?) Hamas smashes Fatah definitively, and installs its non-unity Hamas "government". Then what? Does it put Fatah people in prison? What does it live from? Does it seek a hudna with Israel while getting the funds to function? Does it impose Sharia? Does it invite the Syrians and Iranians to official visits? Does it appoint Meshaal as president in exile? Can anybody paint a picture of how Gazastan would look like?

JN: "Art. 48 does not apply since it specifically states 'in the territory occupied' " Riiiiight, Jeff, OK. Then care to explain how YOU can hold to the argument that Article 6 of the 4th GC defines the ending of occupation, when it contains within these words: ..."however, the Occupying Power shall be bound, for the duration of the occupation, to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory,".... That must mean (by your very own argument above)that this is telling us what happens *during* an existing state of occupation, not what needs to be done to bring an occupation to an *end*. To argue otherwise is to argue in a self-contradictory way i.e. it must presuppose that there still exists an "occupying power", even when that "state of occupation" has ceased.

If the Israelis would just leave us alone, we could finally achieve peace and tranquility. - Arafat, 2002

The power vacuum left when Israel scuttled out of Gaza is fast being filled by TaliQuaida.The fantasy of Israel re-entering Gaza is now fully exposed.The establishment of a fully fledged terrorist state in Gaza which will spread to the West Bank is now underway.Just who will Israel make peace with now.I suggest that Israel make peace with itself.That it re-establish its fundamental Zionist ethic and find pride in it.Thereafter a reunified Israel with a new set of leaders should proceed to militarily destroy the terrorist armies at its borders and give up the fantasy of a two state solution for the forseeable future.Neither Fatah nor Hamas offer a stable solution to the problems faced by Israel or the arabs in the territories.The leaders who forced through the Gaza evacuation should be sent to Gaza with white flags to explore the possibilities of peace whilst the rest of us live in the real world.

Thanks for the reply. But you know me - I see webs of conspiracies everywhere. Partly I suspect because I refuse to believe that incompetence is truly a bottomless pit. In a desperate search for a ray of reason among the debris, all I can come up with are conspiracies of hubris. Even when far fetched, it still beats complete absence of sense. Then again, there is sometimes smoke behind the fires. I'll post later a link to an interesting article I came across, tying lebanon with iran, gaza and iraq. No martians. I haven't really been absent, just lurking at one of my usual old BB boards (1967 one), where I think I may have finally beat the aipac issue to death (may almost be ready for Dershowitz..). Kept Cipora up a bit too, who has been anxious to sic my nemesis Tim R on you. He is looking for a few pounds of flesh on the RoR issue, which I'll be able to resist only so long. You can see where it'll go if you check his last post to you on BB's poll board (think it's #343). Regards.

The Jews made me do it. It's the best excuse. Why should they take responsibility for their own doings? Give it a few days and the revisionists will have you convinced that it was all Jews in the streets doing the fighting - ashamed to show their faces! I've never met such moral cowards When brother kills brother then shame what is left for infamy?

Would that the Islamic terrorists, who oppose peace with Israel, be killed off in these pre-civil war conflicts. Those who are fighting one another have killed more of their own kind than Jews. What lovely martyrdom. The Palestinian folks, who supported Hamas in the recent elections, will likely never see a Palestinian State. Hamas and other supporting folks are the 'Naqba'-(the original tragedy)-the albatross-the amputator of all desires to realize a Palestinian State. They have been stabbed in the back by Haniyeh and his ilk. By the entire Arab world for that matter who despise them, use and abuse them. If they think their state will ever we realized while Haniyeh and other like-minded zealonts are alive, then they are sadly mistaken.

Howdy Palestinian Prince; Unless Fatah does something soon, Hamas will be in charge of the Gaza Strip. Hamas has already taken over several small outposts in central Gaza and the HQ of the Fatah-loyal PA security forces in northern Gaza. In almost every clash between Hamas and Fatah for the past month, Hamas seems to be coming out slightly ahead with respect to body count. Abbas needs to make a decision: either fight Hamas all-out and try to restore order and the authority of the PA in the Gaza Strip or withdraw his troops to the West Bank and abandon the Gaza Strip to Hamas. Half-assed statements like "Advance, our forces! Confront the seekers of the coup. Defend your dignity and your military honour. Defend the security of your people" sound weak and defensive compared to Hamas', "Surrender or die, Zionist collaborators!" Fatah needs a real leader and not a wishy-washy whimp or the PA can kiss the Gaza Strip goodbye.

Now is the time for European and other governments to bow their heads in shame for wanting to support Hammas - a group of murderers who attack hospitals and butcher people inside in contradiction to all international and basic human law! The Dutch ministers who were in a hurry to recognize Hammas should think twice before they recognize a government that brutally kills their own people!

It is very sad to watch a civil war unraveling. But for me, as a jew, who lived in Israel and learned to love it, it is also very sad to see so many jews and Israelis yearning this civil war to develop completely. The lesson, for both Palestinians and Israelis, should be something like "everyone one has a place here and no one shall leave". A destroyed, poverty-ridden Palestinian territory does not benefit Israel in any way. For me it doesen't matter who is killing who, the fact so many people are being murdered is a tragedy in itself, and the whole world should feel responsible.

Just to pick up on a thread we were discussing, when you are with "yaakov" do you like to "sub" or "dom" Sorry I missed you response last week.Thanks and regards

So this is israels fault they couldnt even respect the academic year of their children? It seems that according to you the Pals are totaly incapable of controlling anything.You are making a very "good" argument for the two state solution.You wonder why israelis dont trust it? Well you and yours are the reason.

"Who loves ya baby" ? Yes I am BAACCKK!! HA HA HA

How should israel try to "calm the situation" LOL!! Hope you are well.

Maybe "watching the circus" is a lapsus that describes well your inherent attitude towards the tragic, complex conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, I have had a chance to follow you at. Can you be so detatched if you are learned in Talmud (Tosefta, Beraita, etc.) and if you live at the shores of lake Kinneret? Or is that posturing?

by those who place themselves on the "moral high ground". Why?

you believe Gaza is occupied, other than you believe it is? Or is it that you are upset that your heroes are really killers, criminals, thugs and bandits and you have to blame it on something, which would be on a non-existent occupation.

I presume you consider yourself civilized and me civilized(maybe!!) and all the other people you argue with civilized. Wold you consider doing your arguing with bombs or guns? Now look at the Arabs in that light. And you will realize why they are fighting. NO OCCUPATION, NO LAND THEFT, NO RACISM and NO APARTHEID.

You never fail to amaze me. You can talk for hours without saying anything and you also have a knack of saying the right things for the wrong reason. Your posts are just a soliloquy without any substance. Take for instance the fact that you blame Israel or the USA for the murderous predisposition of your friends the Arabs ,whether in Gaza or Iraq, you know that this is just a bold faced lie but yet you repeat it with such fervour as if it was anything close to resembling the truth. They were killing each other for a very long time and will continue for a long time. History is replete with examples. So how do Israelis fit into this? It would seem that to you this is normal behaviour and you would defend that behaviour to the last virgin. What makes you think that in view of historical precedent the Arabs per se can moderate or even shed their clan and family based behaviour and become modern day Human beings. I see no such progress for at least a few centuries. Why would you or Tosefta not want to help these people with your vast experience in social engineering that you hawk here on a daily basis. You may even become heroes in the Arab world but alas I fear more likely dead before attaining hero status

With the help Of Allah both Hamas and Fatah will come out victorious millions of virgins will dance for joy in Hell Inshallah. Whoever is victorious will have the IDF to contend with if they shoot Qassams. For once this Fatah -Hamas love fast ends Israel will be rid of Elmer and Peretz.

Howdy Ben; Insofar as I'm aware, the only troops committed abroad by Switzerland for the past three or four centuries are the Swiss Guards. I'm not sure of the exact number, but I think that it's about two companies (about 360 men) who are deployed to the Holy See (the Vatican) and are under the command of Pope Benedict XVI. Since they wear bright yellow and blue striped pantaloons and 17th-Century style helmets and carry halberds as weapons, they aren't good for much except ceremonial duties and to keep dumb American tourists (like me) from entering restricted areas of the Vatican. I'm afraid that Swiss troops would be a poor choice as peacekeepers for the Gaza Strip. They would be outclassed by Hamas and they would be viewed as Crusaders by the Gazans.

You never fail to amaze me. You can talk for hours without saying anything and you also have a knack of saying the right things for the wrong reason. Your posts are just a soliloquy without any substance. Take for instance the fact that you blame Israel or the USA for the murderous predisposition of your friends the Arabs ,whether in Gaza or Iraq, you know that this is just a bold faced lie but yet you repeat it with such fervour as if it was anything close to resembling the truth. They were killing each other for a very long time and will continue for a long time. History is replete with examples. So how do Israelis fit into this? It would seem that to you this is normal behaviour and you would defend that behaviour to the last virgin. What makes you think that in view of historical precedent the Arabs per se can moderate or even shed their clan and family based behaviour and become modern day Human beings. I see no such progress for at least a few centuries. Why would you or Tosefta not want to help these people with your vast experience in social engineering that you hawk here on a daily basis. You may even become heroes in the Arab world but alas I fear more likely dead before attaining hero status

"[Jeff] has been talking `flattening Gaza`.You talk about re taking Gaza.Why the mood swing ?Whatever happened to all the apologies and explanations about Hamas`s behviour which earned you the wrath of the posters?" - Lakshmi(?) I don't know if this is the real Lakshmi. For the record, unlike Jeff or many other posters here (I think the majority), when I venture to predict something it is not because I wish it to happen, but because I think circumstances are such that it will happen. Likewise, if I understand Hams it is not because I like them or "apologize" for them; I just prefer to understand the motives behind what is going on. Very basic. Do I want Israel to go into Gaza? NO. There will be many casualties, and Israel should have avoided the situation. But having Hamas unrestrained in Gaza, with nobody even trying to control rockets is not acceptable. Therefore, I expect Israel will have to move in and do some cleanup. Not difficult to see the need. The one way to avoid it is if Hamas will be smart and allow some Abbas force to remain in Gaza, at least as window dressing. The sad thing about most people here is that they are unable to think objectively, and this includes some people with a good amount of education.

Although it looks every bit like it (simply by inevitability of the result) & just may eventually materialize, I doubt it is separation of Gaza & WB just yet. By crashing Fatah, even if only in Gaza, Hamas simply will restore its forceful luster as the player that needs to be reckoned with no matter what. I can see all the world wide appeasers & blind `bad winds of the ME` storytelling idealists, that where already scared to death of all the radicalism even before all of this, after this is over doing `triple hoops` in bowing to Hamas & yelling to put more pressure everywhere on Israel to do the same. It is the actual resolve of Israel, US & the rest of the intelligent think tanks & decision making forces around the world, that clearly see & understand the evil & dangers of radical fanatics in full view, & will not be ever deceived or play their own opportunistic `games`, that will decide the course of the future.

I was wondering where is Egypt myself, but I guess they clearly have some kind of benefit or reservations into interfering. As the matter of fact where is everyone else? It is clearly understood that the whole thing is the Iranian ordered deal, where Hamas not only has multiple advantages in Gaza, but frankly IS the army, supplied & trained by the Iranian best, with the main purpose of `resisting Israel, whether Fatah is the hydra in itself with military offshoots who many times coordinated `resistance` with Hamas in the past, while political head talked. Everyone, especially Iranians had sensed lately that Hamas is loosing its `luster` big time, even becoming more & more irrelevant as an ace in their main capacity: unable to drug Israel into full scale Gaza offensive, providing Israeli temporary effective deterrent with no PR or any other benefits to itself or Iran.

Post #386 is by a fake.

Hello Dana, It has been a long time since we talked. I am getting some rest from the swarm, with two of them MIA and the Bird I ignore for now. I am in heaven, and in the meantime Gaza is going to the dogs. Supplying training and weapons to Abbas happened on a small scale a while ago. But Israel refused to pass on serious weapons for fear Hamas will win and get the loot. I think that events now might be the pressure having built up over time, somebody tried to kill Haniyeh, and a reaction. Just a natural progression, not that this was a specific plan. I think it is actually very worrisome for Israel. Olmert thinks the Europeans will be willing to come in now, with Fatah out of Gaza. I doubt it. Why should they do the fighting? It seems like an unexpected disaster (which should have been anticipated). Somebody has to wake up, but it wouldn't be Bush..

Hamas will not be victorious. Fatah has not even unleashed their superior forces, i.e. Force 17. The situation in the territories has went to hell ever since Hamas took over. Granted Fatah wasn't premium, but at least there was no civil war. HAMAS has to go.

What is your problem with Sussex?

"Me happy living in Sussex". And me in Darien!! (I used to live in Surrey, though....)

Your analysis is easy, not to say simplistic. In 1993 Arafat and the palestinian authority's accepted duty was to dismantle the terror infrastructure (mostly Hamas). They always refused to do so, arguing that it would trigger a civil war, but also indulged in using hamas terrorism when it fit the Arafat's agenda. Now Hamas has no hesitation to do to Fatah what fatah should have done to hamas long ago, and to take over the palestinians. Of course you blame the US and Israel, but what would you want them to do. it is, and especially Gaza, a nest of snakes for them. You might argue that Israel and the US give a bit of money and weapons to Abbas (read fatah), and yest we know it as they do it openly (they are both accountable to their respective parliaments and media). You see that as fostering the civil war, but maybe it is to counter the huge influx of money and weapons hamas receive, especially from Iran (it does not come to your mind to accuse Teheran of pushing for the Gaza war.

I have no idea.Really no idea. Why are they fighting? Do they fight the same as we argue? We all argue,you can hear it here all the time. They argue with their guns.We argue with our pens.

First of all let me congratulate both Hamas and Fatah on a splendid job of supplying virgins with martyrs. May Allah grant both Hamas nd Fatah a great victory and martyrdom in their just fight between them. Jeff Northridge is a valuable contributor to Haaretz and even though I may not see eye to eye with him nevertheless I appreciate his reasonable and well though out posts. On the other hand I just dread even seeing your name and seldom read your posts as the are pure manure the type use in potato farming.

The last that I heard (yesterday) was that an Egyptian major general who has been trying to broker another ceasefire (# 11? 12? I've lost count) between Fatah and Hamas got really frustrated and called on the Gazans to protest the violence. Well, nothing happened except for some funeral processions for the dead on both sides with guns being fired in the air and the usual calls for revenge plus more gun battles. Both Abbas and Haniyeh called for "restaint" today, but nobody seems to be listening. Indeed, they got drowned out by Hamas' demand that the "Zionist collaborators" (Fatah) surrender and Fatah's statement to "Confront the seekers of the coup [Hamas]." Maybe by tommorow everybody will come to their senses, but I doubt it. It looks like Egypt too has given up trying at least for now anyway.

I say that those marvelous Swiss Guard should go in and clean house.Any other intervention is unacceptable.

This has nothing to do with making life better and nothing to do with the children. Life is worthless if you are on the opposite side. This is family against family, clan against clan for the privilege of wielding power and terrorizing your opponents associated with other families or clans. Shed your naivete as the Arab culture will not change in the foreseeable future. It is a culture of Death, Power and Humiliation.There is no Western interpretation of this. What do you think the fighting is all about in GAZA?

Contrary to what you may be puffing and huffing about, Hamas has no intention of relinquishing power to anyone and that power sharing is just a farce and nothing else. Ya Habibi we have the mirror image of the ayatollas of Iran on our door step and Al-Qaida is not far behind. But you were telling us all along that Hamas was moderating. Well Ya Habibi the opposite is what is actually happening. No amount of help to Abbas would make one iota worth of difference as he and his movement as one pea in a pod. He just smiles and lies more. You just lie and don’t even bother to smile. The solution, and I hope all of my so called Israel lovers and brethren are listening.: You let them bleed until there is a river and do pinpoint leader eliminations not to help Fatah but to show both that we are not patsies. Anyone that thinks of negotiations with the smiling guy in a suit is a demented idiot and nothing else.Anyone who thinks that land abandonments work better think again. Look at Gaza and Sderot and look at Fatah and Hamas. This is a clan based society whatever you call them and they just like Iraq will never become a Nation.

Jebediah is correct. Miss Livni,s pappa was a terrorist.He was a member of haganah or one of those terrorist groups who bombed hotels and murdered people in their sleep and did a little number in Deir Yassin to mention just a few. Get used to it yourstate was born out of a certain level of terrorism and most realists know it. By the way I am not from "Occupied Gaza or the West Bank so I am not whining. Just simply refusing to allow the war crimes that you support to continue.How do manage to get any sleep. Regards

Always killing...

When Fatah gunman greets his Hamas counterpart, new salutation is: Salam Aleikum BANG BANG BANG. Instead of the old "Come to ze Casbah", it's now come to the rooftop so I can throw you off.

He's Putin

You seem like an intelligent individual, please fill me in. How many troops has the Swiss placed in NATO? How many in the UN? Just curious on my part.

I check back in three times a day to see how many casualtis there are and the list just keeps climbing. When the Pals finally wake up from the long nightmare they are creating, along with other Islamists, I doubt if one head will be held proudly or if they will be able to look any other human being in the eye. They are shaming their own religion.

...and where is Hamas getting their weapons? From the weapons fairy? Wake up. They have been receiving weapons from Syria and Iran for years. When Hurricane Katrina hit our country, our government failed misirably. We didn't blame another country for our failures.

Gaza is rdominated by armed Lumpen for years now. The only thing that's happened is that now this armed Lumpen won't only dominate it, but "govern" it absolutely -whatever that means- Islamic Jihad is firing Qassams, and once the coup is over, both Hamas and Fatah will find their tearfully rediscovered brotherhood in firing them too. The international community will get tired of Palestinians as real people, and leave the mess to Israel to handle, like it has always been, but without counterbalance. So it will sharpen Israel versus global Jihad. Israel will win it because it has to. Global Jihad will have its terrorist tsunami, and will thereafter fade sooner than later. Barak is an interesting new ingredient to this unfolding chapter.

We have a similiar political situation here. We can either vote Republican or Democrat and both are corrupt. The difference is we have one government supervised by and accountable to the people. My advise is to spread the word to all those there who feel like you do is stock up on food and water and let them all kill each other. When it is all over...come out and make a new peaceful lives for yourselves. Bless You and take care. Be safe.

So, Pals wanted the Israelis out of Gaza, they left unilaterally. What's the problem? It should not mean there is a big empty hole.

Your name is much more likely Dave Rabinowitz... By the way: Muslims dont have faith in "The Prophet" but in God.

They are neutral enough to deal with it.

Howdy Jebediah; Art. 48 does not apply since it specifically states "in the territory occupied" and there are no Israeli tax collectors in the Gaza Strip and because the Gaza Strip is not occupied by Israel. Israel does collect some taxes for the PA as a result of the Oslo Accords, but she does so outside of the Gaza Strip and Areas A & B in the West Bank and those taxes are primarily customs duties at crossing points or taxes on wages earned by Palestinians working in Israel where the long arm of the PA cannot reach. You have committed the logical falacy of assuming that which you are trying to prove and I don't buy it. Israel has not confiscated the taxes--they are being held in escrow although some of them may be used to pay for water, electricity, and petrol that Israel provides to the Palestinians since the PA doesn't pay for it otherwise. An occupation cannot be continued "by other means". There is no such thing as an occupation by remote. You can call it an economic seige.

The Kingdom of Tottenham!

erroneous views? Pig headednes, I thought at first.But then,as he started to talk about 'flattening Gaza' I understood why.If he admits to Occupation,then israel cannot flatten Gaza.There it is.

I agree with your comments regarding the deliberate attempt by Israel to induce conditions that would lead to civil war. the siege, the provocations and the refusal to have a cease fire all play into that If anything, it all makes Hamas look like a success story, if only by resisting the temptation to do much worse. But I think that what's behind these recent clashes is an attempt to ratchet up the pressure on hamas (seeing that the previous tactics didn't work), by providing outright support - in this case by the US - for arming Fatah, sending militants into Gaza, and propping up Dahlan, who is generally considered to be in the employ of the US/israel - following the standard US model of picking a war lord. They are probably mad at Abbas for not declaring all out war with Hamas, and disappointed with fatah 's performance as we speak. The next moves are easy to guess. They will happen in the west bank. Surely you don't expect that either Bush or Olmert will do the right thing?

Yes i agree with you the Palestinians had a state called Palestine before the U.N Partition gave half to the minority"Jews from Europe" over the majority who were Palestinian and the asperations for self-determination. Good stats on your behalf again Ben,but the dream of Eretz Yisrael "Palestine for the Jews" go's back to the late 1800's with Theodor Herzl the founder of modern day Zionism. Check that dude out Ben,his dream makes the Hamas charter come in a close secound.

Meshaal sits in his penthouse in Damascus,sipping arak and watching Al Jazeera on his big screen TV,while his Palestinian robots kill each other. What a guy!A real leader! As Cipora said a while ago.."he'll support them right down to the last Palestinian child".

Thankyou for your response Kath I'll e-mail Tony Blair in the morning and let him know that I am to blame him for everything. Ms Livni is the daughter of Eitan Livni who as a member of Irgun bombed the King David Hotel. Therefore she is the daughter of a terrorist. You might not like it. I don't care. As for Gaza being a hell hole I fully agree. Although as Israel is the occupying power accoring to the United Nations, I know who to blame.

Nobody is beyond redemption, as your god Dionis or Bahus or Mithra can redim evrebody by in death. Keep posting and a redemption will be with you. Hail Dionis!

United Nations Resolution 242 [Nov. 11, 1967] states, “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” The UN edict does not condition the withdrawal on 1) whether or not the borders are final, or 2) which countries or international bodies recognize Palestine as a state, or 3) whether or not Israel and the PA agree upon the final borders. Again, UN 242 clearly states, and I repeat, “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict [1967]”. Just as Israel claims Jerusalem as their “eternal capital”, Israel also believe in “eternal provocations”, “eternal expansion” in the Occupied territories, and “eternal disinformation”. And unfortunately, attitudes towards the government of Israel spill over into Antisemitism.

"American"--Christians are not so blessed in there gentileness that they can pal around with gunmen, cheerfully burn American flags, then pal around some more with gunmen, posing with automatic rifles, run into a combat zone and place themselves before a tank, then be led away, then put themselves in direct risk again with some kind of divine Christian immunity against harm. Her end, as horrible as it must have been as a personal experience, was not the doing of the Jews or of Zionists or of other Americans. There is as yet no proof that the bulldozer driver in his cab saw here and the Gaza that ultimately resulted when Israel permitted itself to be bullied out of its forward positions in Gaza is precisely what you would expect from her truant, gun-toting heroes. Teenage wasteland.

Taxes Israel collects are from workers inside Israel. It does the Arab Terrorists a great favor by giving them a portion of the taxes paid by Arab workers in Israel. No other country in the world does this for anyone. Arab chairman Abu Baboon Mazen is not able/does not want to enforce collection of taxes from areas under his control therefore the contribution from workers there is close to zero. Israel as a humanitarian gesture agreed to this handout out of concern for Arab children. I wish it didn't. Before bashing anyone get your facts straight first. But of course you will not let facts get in your way of distorted thinking, why should you.

Arabs kill Arabs, and they blame the Jews - Menachem Begin

to your # 347, but it didn't show up yet. Just in case it won't get through: Your demands on the Palestinians are quite correct in principle. However, sometimes you have to "push" a process yourself, especially when the other side is either not able or not willing to make progress. Peace will not come to Israel served on a silver plate. You got to work ******* hard for it. Ask Tony Blair, how many times he had to try it in Northern Ireland. Without his pertinacious efforts, the IRA and the Protestants would still fight each other in Belfast today. You bet on that.

Even after the Hajj to the Muslim holy city of Mecca - where Hamas and Fatah vowed to end the bloodshed, after the formation of a "unity" government, and God knows how many declared "hudnas" (Muslim cease-fires), Hamas and Fatah just keep on butchering each other. 25 killed in one single day! Around 600 killed altogether! Mind-boggling...

When you spend a trillion, and have 14 trillion coming in from free world trade that's called cost of doing business. When you are spending 25 billion on nukes, terror, and only have a 50 billion coming in, 80% oil revs, and virtually no free world commerce, for apopulation of 68 million people, (less than 100 per capita), and getting worse from sanctions to country that in GDP barely makes it as a developed country, that's called squander, and ultimate abyss. Click the math isn't too complicated, but I understand it has to do with money, and economic reality, the understanding of which seems very challenging to you and your compatriots. You seem to think the "blitz" threat is some sort of solution for your people, however it just underscores the desperation of their agenda, and the need to plan just in case they decide to do something very foolish.

"There is a serious and pervasive mindset problem with those that devour their own." (Your Post to Peter ) Lakshmi, Of course, you are right and we shouldn't have allowed these tribal people back into the Middle East. That's as clear as daylight -- today. They were better off being wondering Jews. At least, they weren't bullying or bashing their neighbors like they are today. And LOL they call the Arabs barbaric! I wish I was a stand up artist. I wouldn't have to create any script --I could get it all from the Talkback daily! Cheers and thanks, Dutch

I hate you and your imperialistic Muhammed religion with that fake love of yours

While Hamas feeds the babies it also has asked them to be martyrs.Its one thing to take a chance and die for your country but quite another to commit suicide for your country. For me I would like to see peace between Israel and the Palestinians,Ive said it a million times.Again I say Tosefta is not so much off the mark as he allows Israel the deterrent and retribution power to hit back but Israel is relative in a comfort zone (relatively)and why would they take this difficult chance that Tosefta has only tried in a lab or a thesis. I think really its for the arabs to make a move to assure Israel and follow through with security.They cant promise that though. They need to take control of Gaza to begin with,one of them and talk for all of the Palestinians.Then we will know who they are and what occupation really means.

With Hamas ruling Gaza, the world can no longer doubt the true intentions of the Palestinkians. As soon as Hamas wins their Civil war, its time for the IDF to crush them. Then maybe, there is a chance for peace. Amen.

Regretfully, some of the messages don't get aired because of Censorship by Ha'aretz. Some of their Editors are more suited to wash dishes in a restaurant, than work in a newspaper.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Swiss, but you guys screwed up royally in WWII....or did you? You may have been a small country ("we're so defenseless, please don't hurt us") but the Swiss personally bankrolled the Nazi govt and ensured the war would continue. It was only through Swiss banks did Hitler manage to get his hands on hard currency, which without would have ground his advances to a halt. He attacked every country in the region mercilessly, and didn't even sneeze towards Suisse. Why? It was partly Germanic. Do you think he left you alone simply because you said "Um, we're neutral. ok?" France had the eternal white flag up and they were sacked! Don't try to duck your own history while you lecture others on theirs. Suisse was a bigger player in the world than Israel could ever hope to be in the ME. You controlled Hitler's money, we can't even get an Arab to call us back.

"A civil war in Gaza is likely to lead to the destruction of the corrupt Fatah party and Hamas in even greater control." CF Swiftly followed by the demise of Hamas in the far more important West Bank! Careful what you wish for Clickfool.

I don't think anyone in Israel is rejoicing - it would be far preferable if there were peace in Gaza and if the Palestinians were rolling up their sleeves and spending their precious time and resources on state-building instead of on power-struggles of the violent variety, arms and destruction. We do however feel relief that the shooting of qassams seems to have ceased (for the meantime) and hope it remains that way. It's time for the Palestinians get their act together, for the same of the ordinary people who are suffering - and for what!

soon have Howdy Jeff on board.He has been talking 'flattening Gaza'.You talk about re taking Gaza.Why the mood swing ?Whatever happened to all the apologies and explanations about Hamas's behviour which earned you the wrath of the posters? Should Hamas take over Gaza and it is possible(though Haniyeh has been talking about a truce) israel will not retake Gaza.Too many risks.First, unless it flattens Gaza(which would delight Jeff) the Hamas militants are not a push over.A ground invasion with all its risks is something israel would not want.Not to mention the international community's outrage.That would be indeed war as another way of doing diplomacy,as as that 'outstanding' thinker on war said.

Fritz, Your analysis has a few major flaws. One, Abbas only has any substantial in the West Bank because Hamas refuses to allow him to have power in Gaza. Note that in the West Bank there is no civil war against Hamas. Two, the primary reason that Hamas has war with Fatah in Gaza is that they have systematically tried to eliminate all elements of the security forces loyal to Fatah in Gaza. Fatah in Gaza is fighting less against the elected government and more for their lives. Hamas has engaged in a series of actions not only against Fatah in Gaza but also against any liberal elements of commerce. They have attempted to insitute a dictatorial regime by violence and intimidation with burning, bombing and assassination. They are now reaping what they have sown. Peace. Steve

Before I tuned in to HaAretz today, I read the article on BBC's FRONT page. It was not invisible to me. Are you blind?

20 killed, 3.000.000 to go

Jebediah (what kind of a name is this), I see that you are arguing with Jeff Northridge (aka Jeff Slapstick) on the Gaza occupation. Jeff has heard it all, knows the arguments, but continues to deny reality and uses FALSE facts to maintain his position. (Don't know why.) I prefer not to argue with him. But keep him busy and he will spread fewer falsehoods. Let me help you with some points: 1. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, BEFORE the Hamas elections. Why did the airspace, territorial water takeover continue? Slapstick says that Hamas declared war (Jihad). But in 2005 Hamas was quiet. 2. Upon withdrawl, Israel REFRAINED from declaring the occupation as over. Moreover, it reserved the right to enter Gaza AT WILL. You don't do that to an independent area. 3. Israel DOES control the Gaza/Egypt border from the GAZA side (thru the EU observers who agreed to follow the Israeli regulations). When Israel wants the border closed, it closes, even for weeks at a time. Nothing to do with Egypt. 4. Jeff Slapstick will quote Hague treaty to claim that there must be boots on the ground. False. Not said anywhere and not even true. You can surround a ghetto and this way occupy/control it. Happaened in Warsaw ghetto. (Germans afraid to enter because of diseases.) 5. Funny thing, Israel continues to control the PA population registry. Gazans must register with Israel as Gaza residents in order to get in and out of Gaza.

At least, as a news reporting agency, BBC does try to avoid taking sides on a news issue. that is simply good journalism. If she calls a Hamas gunman activist instead of your favorite term, terrorist, so what? At the very least it assures readers that they are receiving as unbiased a report as is humanly possible.

I find your analysis very childish and amateurist. Hamas never had any intention of sharing or giving up power to anyone just as the Ayatollas of Iran will never give up power. In that they have the Balestinian street backing them up.You can pontificate and blame Israel all you want but we are heading for a Hamas(Muslim Brotherhood) rule in anything that Israel relinquishes whether you or the Leftists or the Humanists like it or not. But you are neither a Leftist or a Humanist just a freakish demented Arab. A pisher with an attitude.

Jebediah First stop calling Ms.Livni a doughter of a terrorist.It is not an appropriate way for you to apportion this appelation. The second point is this:There is no such place as a Palestinian state as yet established. Just look what they are doing to each other. Thirdly,there is Abass who is supposed to be their president and there are the many factions fighting.Like the "clans" the "tribes",Islamic Jihad,the Al-Aksa M.Brigade and on and on. Jebediah,they are killing each other,children,women and averyone.Hospitals Mosques and the damn dirty business Muslim seem to be doing all over the place.Notonly in Gaza etc.And now additionally you have Al-Qaida as well.it is just a hell hole thanks to Hamas. Look just stop your whining,I,and many here know where you are coming from and no good blaming other people for your deficiencies. Stop blaming Israel for all your woes.Blame your leaders who are jossling for power,who are incapable to govern themselves normally..

Swiss (Dino) Neither the US nor the Arab neighbors are honest brokers, And spare me this bolls shit innocence about how played a positive role in this conflict, When Palestinians grow up then lets talk, around the table with out no brokers!!! Until than spare me this talks of peace!!! I think you forgot what the hell is going on in Gaza; they are killing each other! So what are you talking about peace, in this state when you have thugs roaming around how can do peace, these people are in power in Gaza, face it!!!

This is a demonstration of how Democracy works when things go wrong in the Arab World,. Democracy and Law and Order are buried together in the same coffin.Unfortunately the great experiment to take people out of the dark ages has failed. Tax Payers Money has been worked hard for,and no nNation has the right to throw money down the drain.It is therefore time now not to inject any more arms or give more economic aid to a People who want Statehood but cannot administe the little that they have..... ..JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE.!

Simply by its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip Art. 48. If, in the territory occupied, the occupant collects the taxes, dues, and tolls imposed for the benefit of the State, he shall do so, as far as is possible, in accordance with the rules of assessment and incidence in force, and shall in consequence be bound to defray the expenses of the administration of the occupied territory to the same extent as the legitimate Government was so bound. Israel by confiscating the taxes of the legitimate government of Gaza (whether you like it or not the elections were deemed free and fair) is continuing the occupation of Gaza by other means. Personally the EU shoul withraw favoured trading status until Israel restitutes all taxes witheld from Gaza, as this is an illegal act. You might not like it, but as a commited Zionist living in the United States I don't care.

Hi Jebediah, Mind if I give you a heads up on J Northridge. It does not matter what international Law /Treaty/agreement/convention/Resolution or otherwise, if it in anyway inteferes with Jeff,s view of Israel,s pristine Behaviour, he will reject it. Dont waste you valuable time. To suggest that he is beyond redemption would be kind. Suffice it to say he has no time for facts.Keep posting Regards

Before you go off half-cocked and slam BBC for being quiet on this issue, try reading: BBC news, International Version, 12 June 2007: Hamas launches new Gaza Attack. Regards

Gil, your demands are fully justified. However, I see a certain tendency in Israel to expect everything to be presented on a silver tablet, means everything has to be "perfect", and only then Israel can act. Unfortunately sometimes you have to "kick on" a process by yourself, especially if you see that the other side is neither able nor willing to make real progress. If Tony Blair would have had this passive attitude, the IRA and the Protestants would still fight themselves today in the streets of Belfast. Not the slightest doubt about that.

If it would have been the Israelis as the second party fighting either one of them, cries of Massacre would be doing the rounds of the international press right about now.......

i feel a shamed and embarressed while living in canada ,and seeing my own people killing eachother.the evil is not in the religion,its in the human minds ,cause i dont think that relegions came to make us hate and kill ,people are using islam to justify the evilness in their hearts which might have been caused by the atrosities of the occupation which is demeening to humanity in order to commit evil acts in iraq and palestine and r spreading to lebanon and god knows were else.

when it admitted israel in 1948?

It would then still have been hard enough to prevent them from "messing" things up, but the perspective for both people would definitely have been much, much better. .... and with Israel out of the west bank and not controlling palestinian lives, the restraints on hamas will be gone, giving it a chance to build up its power and stockpile more powerful missiles to target a million Israelis. This time with no place for them to flee. The Israeli casualties will be many times more than '96. far too risky. duncan

Of course it isn't Israel's fault! It wasn't France's fault when she set up a government in Saigon. It wasn't Red China's fault that N. Vietnamese didn't like that govt. It wasn't the U.S's fault that she backed the losing side. War's aren't anybody's fault. they just condense out of the blue. So keep preaching your PR, Hastaroth. Maybe someday someone will believe you. Haniyeh, perhaps? Abbas? Olmert? All revolutionaries choose to solve their problems through violence. You think the Palestinians are any different? They have problems that they alone must solve. Ask a Russian oldtimer about it. But I agree with you that this is no time to rejoice. I just hope Bush doesn't get ambitious again and try to solve their problems for them.

Michael, unfortunately my first response didn't make it through, therefore just quickly: If the U.S. really wants to play a significant role in solving this conflict, then the Ameri- cans will have no choice but to start acting as a fair broker between both parties. Because trust is the key word here. And a big player who is not willing to listen to both sides of the conflict and accept the role of a fair, balanced mediator, doesn't deserve any trust. Believe me, as a Swiss I know what I'm talking about.

This isn't just a power struggle. Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, to financial support has been cut off to the Pals. Fatah wants something better than a stalemate, where Hamas stubbornly refuses to change, and nothing improves. Unfortunately, this strife was inevitable. It is caused by Hamas' refusal to soften its stance. Let's recognize the true cause, rather than blame Israel or the US. I sympathize with moderate Pals. This is like watching a train wreck, only worse. Harry

It looks like they are rejoicing today, I wonder what will come next.

Bill, maybe you read my # 304 to Gee and you will see that I do not acquit the Arab neigh- bours. However, everybody who follows the ME conflict knows exactly, that one of the main reasons (apart from the Palestinian rejection to stop using violence as a means of resistance, and Israels countless political blunders) is the continuing U.S. refusal to serve as an honest broker in the ME conflict. So everything that happens on the ground must be seen in that wider context. And in that context neither the Arab regimes nor the U.S. governements of the past (with a few exceptions, f.e. Bill Clinton/Bush sen.) played a positive role in this conflict. And while Fatah and Hamas are still the first ones to blame, Israel, the U.S. and the Arab regimes deserve very well to be also put on the "sinner" list. Unfortunately.

to drag the EVER GOOD NAME OF RACHEL CORRIE in thisBS talk of yours.

Yes it looks like the uncorrpted Hamas will be victorious,and that later they may direct their fire power in different directions, that's when we've got to be careful, those who are so HAPPY today may be so UNHAPPY later on. Nobody should laugh of other people's misfortunes.

"Trillions spent on Iraq? About as accurate as all the other Wikopedia BS you spout" What's your estimate of the money that the USA has squandered on the unwinnable Iraq War, Peter? At an annual interest rateof, say, 5%, how much does the US taxpayer have to pay to the Chinese and Japanese forever after?

Swiss (Dino) When Palestinians start to behave like civilized people Stop bombing Israeli cities, Get a grip on things, And disarm their thugs, and they are by all means thugs Only then, a peace offer could be submitted, and have some chance!!! Kip the UK, Arab Nations, US, EU and all the shit heads out when it happens And let the once in conflict resolve a solution!!!

You are right on,buddy. Everybody has this wait and see attitude,maybe it'll get better,"have you loved an Arab today" attitude and they can't wait to chop our heads off.Pathetic..you're right,if something doesn't happen with the world's thinking,we're all going down the drain.

I think Sharon foresaw this: one state in Gaza (Hamas), one state in Israel and one state in West Bank = Palestine (Fatah). Within a year I think the IDF will be launching a major ground incursion in Gaza to deal with Hamas rockets that by this time will reach Ashkelon and perhaps beyond. Within 3 years Egypt will become the major player in Gaza; but only if Israel & USA can nullify Iranian involvement. Otherwise, Lebanon c.1975 awaits. As for Fatah-land - they'll be doing secret deals with Israel to cleanse themselves from Hamas and taking Saudi money. They will be the new darlings of the left: ostensibly a national movement, relgious rhetoric toned down. All very messy.

Anti-Clickfool Is to rufffle his feathers,and put a stop to his meanderings. Last week he was supposed to be having a so-called vacation in Palestina giving his address, not in Sussex,buy London U.K.If I am wrong Clickfool,then I suggest you challenge my interpretation. He also appeared on Rosner's Domain under the guise of "Don't Forget Stuff".Then he came over to one of these forums on another guise as "Empathy".He is obsessed with Israel in a very nasty way,and partial to the Palis. What I would like him to tell us is why did he not stay a bit longer than a few days in Palestina? Why only a couple of days at most?

Now, I'm afraid it has unfortunately come to that " A CIVIL WAR IN PROGRESS". NOW is the time for YOU to show leadership, get all YOUR SPECIAL FORCE to get into the GAZA STRIP and disarmed everybody that is carrying ARMS ESTABLISH LAW and ORDER,( MARTIAL LAW), then in six months do have a GENERAL ELECTION for all the territories.DO NOT Be chiken up. MR ABBASS this is your last chance to show your METAL, Have no FEAR.DO WHAT is BEST for the PALESTINIANS.GoodLuck

Smadar, Israel was pushing for a civil war. It was watching with delight as the Saudis unfortunately spoiled the party and brokered a national unity government. Israel's reaction: Boycott not only the Hamas ministers but every member of the government including Fatah and independents. The economic siege continued as before. Fatah wanted to come back to power. The siege gave Abbas an excuse. He claimed that Hamas cannot run the PA and wanted new elections soon. Hamas called it a coup attempt. The attempts to control Hamas militarily continued up to now. It so happens that Hamas appears to be stronger in Gaza and may throw Abbas forces out. As I suggest in #289, Israel will find itself in a situation it was trying to avoid: Go back into Gaza to clean up the place. The US finds itself in a similar situation in Iraq. It has to fight a civil war on one side or the other. Olmert and Bush, dumb and dumber. Perhaps they will wake up at the last second and lift the siege. Who knows.

Today they are fighting each other until one group wins, and later it could spill,so let us not be too happy of what is going on,as they are only battle hardened themselves so let us pray that it will soon stop for all sake,as we are all human beings.

It looks like Hamas will win these deadly rounds of violence. Eventually Fatah will disappear as an affective force in Gaza. The question is what will happen next? I predict an attempt at a government in exile situated in Ramallah held by Fatah and the ethnic cleansing of Fatah supporters in Gaza. Israel, still in the West Bank will be in the middle of future Hamas and Fatah fighting there. Where is the the UN? without them the bloodshed will spill over and touch all in the area, including Israeli troops. Israel should keep out of the fight and leave any intervention to the UN.

Howdy Jebediah; Hague Regulations (1907): "Art. 42. Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised." What goes on in the West Bank has nothing to do with whether or not the Gaza Strip is occupied. The fact that China, India, and Pakistan all occupy about a third each of the Principality of Kasmir does not imply that any one of them occupies more than where their respective armies have a physical presence on the ground. "If not why does Israel control Gazan airspace etc?" Navies and air forces can impose blockades, but they cannot occupy enemy territory while they are floating around in ships or buzzing around in aircraft. Occupations necessarily require "boots on the ground". You know--infantry--those guys and not swabbies and flyboys. Border control has nothing to do with occupations on the other side of it.

"It looks like the moment of truth for Israel is approaching, although I doubt Olmert will agree to talks even under the divided conditions." - Tosefta #222 "what`s to prevent Israel from pretending there is no peace partner,even after the hypothetical return of Abbas that you have projected?" - Lakshmi I don't know what will prevent it, other than public opinion in Israel and the world at large. I believe Olmert does not want a partner. Maybe he will have no choice or perhaps will find a new excuse. We will have to see. (Chances are, Olmert will not be PM then, so we will never need to find out.) "Apart from that,a retaking of Gaza will simply not happen." - Lakshmi Lakshmi, we are not dealing with religious or ideological beliefs. If Hamas rules Gaza alone, Israel will have to move in even if it tries to avoid the unhappy chore. Safety uber alles.

When Gaza was occupied by Israelis I could understand "refugee camp" but since 2005 how come they still refer to refugee camps in Gaza ?

The more the Palestinians suffer the more they will embrace a "Jihadi Mickey Mouse." There is plenty of religious support for Hamas in the Koran. Jews are not displayed well in its texts at all. This is the problem. According to true Islam, a non Islamic rule state like Israel in the Middle East should not exist.

Michael, there was an alternative for Israel: - Accept the outcome of the Palestinian elections. - Submit a bold Israeli peace offer (along the Geneva plan) to president Abbas. - Let the Palestinians have a referendum on it. There is a good chance that the moderates had won such a vote, and Hamas would be again at the 25 % of support they had 10 years ago. It would then still have been hard enough to prevent them from "messing" things up, but the perspective for both people would definitely have been much, much better.

When Mr. Abbas sent thousands of PA troops to Gaza few weeks ago without coordinating with Hamas, was he suffering from what my children would call "brain fart"?

Swiss (Dino) If Iran is helping terror organizations like Hisboola, and governments like Lebanon and Syria Iran is therefore in the Arab-Israeli conflict, For your information Syria isn?t some country you can dismiss from being an existential threat, And not the union of Arab countries surrounding Israel, Israel is all the time in a stage of an existential threat. Face it! And this is no exaggeration taking into consideration that war strikes you when you least expect it, and the war of 1973 is a good example! Israel can?t get into any state of Euphoria! Sorry!!!

Mazen didn't try to stop attacks on Israel before he lost power and Fatah attacked Israel before Hamas came to power. The fact that one side are religious fanatics and the other side are lazy fanatics is neither her nor there. A Hamas win may be to Israel's benefit as far as funding and international recognition is concerned and that's about it. The world also has a chance to witness AGAIN that the Palestinians are unable to govern themselves

Israel and the US have no role in this internal civil war in Gaza. Don't be ridiculous. This is purely Palestinian fight and the only ones to blame are the Palestinians. Also I notice how you are quick to blame the Israelis but leave out the other Arab and Muslim nations who are more capable and culpable in this situation.

I suggest a high level peace conference in Gaza City among Assad,Hamas, Fatah, Jihad, Al Akhsa Brigade, Al Qaida's bin Laden and of course Shimon the Great Dreamer, whose dreams have turned into nightmares. He is the only one who can solve this problem. Stop the butchery Shimon!

They're taking on the enemies of the west and of civilisation. Hamas is a force for the loss of law and order.

Duncan, I got your point. But when it comes to military strength, the number of soldiers doesn't play that significant of a role anymore nowadays. So even if Israel is outnumbered by a margin of 50 to 1, the only thing that counts is Israels overwhelming strategical advantage. And with regard to Iran, I think Israel and the West would be well adviced to exhaust all diplomatic means in order to prevent the Iranians from getting the bomb. Because I am sure the Iranians have learned their lesson well from the Iraqi experience almost 3 decades ago. Such an exhaustion of diplomatic means would most probably have to include a non-attack guarantee by the Americans.

Howdy Tosefta; You said, "For other readers I would mention that Gaza is already overcrowded and cannot be a viable state of its own." Why not? Both Singapore (an independent state)and Gibralter (an overseas territory of the U.K.) both have higher population densities than the Gaza Strip and GDPs/capita of about $24,000/yr. (similar to Israel). Singapore has more land area than the Gaza Strip and Gibralter less, but they are comparable in size. Plus, the Gaza Strip has access to the sea (like Singapore and Gibralter) and has an excellent location at the eastern end of the Mediterranian. Furthermore, there are natural gas deposits offshore and which would be within the Gaza Strip's territorial limits if she declared statehood. The only thing that is preventing the Gaza Strip from becoming a going concern is this stupid fascination with violence. As long as the Gazans keep shooting at Israel or at themselves, nobody wants to invest a dime in the place.

withdrawal(UN 2005).Interesting to see how you tackle Jeff N.Both Tosefta and Johnboy tried,so did others.Not sure what the psychological reason is,since he has been shown to be wrong by the logic of the arguments.Possibly because he has often talked about 'flattening Gaza' and if you are in Occupation you obviously cannot do that.So,by Jeff's logic you can attack Gaza with impunity.

I don't know why we don't label the opposition. It's Islam. It's the religion. It's bringing all of us down and we won't put a name to it. It's the bloody religion of Mohammad that going to kill us all. Make no mistake, take no prisoners, these people are out to destroy Western civilization. Let's put a name to it. It's ISLAM. There is no peace in it. There is no quarter. It's take no prisoner time. It's ISLAM. Stupid, stupid, stupid leaders. Wake up. You are fighting a religion. Get busy. Draw the lines. Make the preparations. It's coming to you soon. ISLAM. Embrace it or fight it. No other choice. d.dor

You need help!

Well looks like Hamas will kick Fatah out pretty shortly. They certainly look like they have Hezbollah like fighting skills. I see Olmert is now whinging that a Hamas takeover will bring instability to the region. Next act the West bank

Where did Hamas get this weaponry from? From Egypt maybe? Through the Philadelphi Corridor? And what are you doing to stop it?

no peace partner,even after the hypothetical return of Abbas that you have projected? Apart from that,a retaking of Gaza will simply not happen.

Just exactly where is Springfield? Homer

The ‘1967’ war began in November of 1966 with Israel’s “Operation Shredder. On November, 25, 1996, the UN Security Council Resolution 228 censured “Israel for this large-scale military action in violation of the United Nations Charter and of the General Armistice Agreement between Israel and Jordan” It was only after this attack on Jordan that King Hussein ordered a nationwide mobilization. Later, Israeli’s Defense Minister, Moshe Dayan, said "Along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps —only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land and they dreamed about it. They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land. We would send a tractor to plow some area in the demilitarized area, and knew that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was."

When pals will start to behave they will get some freedom, As every other country facing the same situation, I don?t think that when rockets are flying towards Israel, the one retaliating (Pals) should live a peaceful life, Plane and simple, Miss Jebeiah Springfield, Farther more, once we withdrew from Gaza we have nothing to do with them! If they want to kill them self?s, I say let them!

What next?

'Still, I don`t think we ever agreed on so much, did we...???' There is a first time for everything. Will miracles never cease. I am waiting for the first time an Arab keeps an agreement that they have made. Me thinks I have a long wait.

I'm sorry Dino, but we cannot accept a government whose goal is our destruction. As proven by the post-Gaza Withdrawal rocket barrage, appeasement has only proven to backfire on us.

Your people refer to "victory" as anything that involves the process of breathing. Trillions spent on Iraq? About as accurate as all the other Wikopedia BS you spout. As for iran economics, Russia does not like to hear "check is in the mail...probably" Without dwelling on heavy economics, law of conservation says lots of money going out, nothing coming in called spiraling down to the abyss. And don't even utter comparison of economies of US, Israel, with Iran and buddies. As far as nukes in Iran, safer bet is on the abyss!

Israel kill one hamas terrorist = crime against the humanity Hamas kills women and Palestinian children = small domestic incidents it is very curious

Gil, you should read my post to Duncan again, I was talking about an EXISTENTIAL threat to Israel, not just a threat. That is a big difference. Of course Israel is threatened by suicide bom- bers and Quassams, but those threats do not endanger Israels existence, as painful they may be. It is also clear that Israel would keep many of the strategic important settlements along the Green line, that was pretty much agreed on in Taba. The Iranian nuclear threat could be indeed an existential one, but I was talking in my post to Duncan about the Arabs, and the Iranians are no Arabs. The Israel-Iran problem is there- fore not directly related to the Israeli-Arab conflict.

In the past, arabs had already faced unsolved clans clashes ! Hashemites and Saudis dispute, as an example, forced the creation of a new brand country ! What better solution to bring peace for palestinians than the creation of a Jordanian/Palestinian federation and Gaza as a independent caliphate ! Abdullah had already suggested that after the creation of a Palestinian State they might seek the for Federation between Jordan and Palestine! Taking into account the present civil war, King of Jordan might be convinced to rush a little bit ! That might do the trick !

Israel is first people of the Book. Christians and Muslims are Israel's younger sisters and brothers. All who attack Israel are infidels, traitors to the Book, traitors to G-d. Officially athiest China wants division among people of the Book, plans to eat them up. Join with our sisters and brothers, true Muslims, or be eaten by China and face hell.

You do not need a peace treaty to end occupation. You need a peace treaty to end hostilities.

ou can't have it both ways. If Hamas was "free" enough to smuggle in all those weapons, it was free enough to create jobs, improve educational medical services and generally do everything necessary to initiate and implement state building activities for the benefit of its people. Instaed its leaders took all the money that sympathetic governments poured into Gaza and spent every cent on arms, bodyguards and luxury cars, villas and clothes for those close to the plate in order to make it more comfortable for them to attack Israel. The only education they invested in was how to kill Israelis and why it's important. Had they taken the initiative and started being productive, Israel would have been the first to help and cooperating, gradually releasing the rope, helping with imports and exports until they had their own facilites, etc. They failed miserably - not becasue they can't, but because they won't - their true goal being war with Israel until all of Palestine ( Israel) is Judenrein

would prevent further undemocratic policies, horrendous anarchy and bloodshed, and Israel should finally announce what the boundaries of a two-state solution would entail. Why else is Hamas in this power struggle with Fatah over security forces of PA? All the peace proposals have agreed that a Palestinian state will be a demilitarized state. In Danny Rubinstein's article my post states: If Hamas is indicating interest in peaceful resolution (of latest proposed last week), then it's seems imperative for Israel to seize this opportunity for the chance of peace and calm in the region. The internationally imposed embargo of over a year now, after Hamas's election victory, has consequently produced the socioeconomical and emotional turmoil unto the Palestinian people, escalation of factional fighting and the firing of Qassams into Israel. Neglecting to respond to this type of chaos is a disservice to everyone. We can't be complacent witnessing this deteroriation.

I remember back in '73 when I was in Suez that we surrounded the Egyptian 3rd Army. They had 40,000 troops to our 20,000 and we had them surrounded and if President Nixon hadn't saved them they would have been forced to surrender. Now we have 500 Fatah surrounded by 200 Hamas and Fatah surrenders after losing 9 to 10 men. Hell of a lot fight in them Ragheads.

Howdy Double Click; The United Nations, International Law, the European Union and the United States do not recognize Palestine as a state yet and with borders yet to be determined. The recognition of Israel up to the 1949 armistice line in the West Bank and the 1950 armistice line around the Gaza Strip is a minimum but not a maximum of where Israel is. This is because those boundaries in 1967 were temporary ceasefire lines and not borders. No third party has the authority to change the status of a temporary armistice line to that of a permanent border. That can only be done by a bilateral agreement between Israel and the PA.

Gee, I hate to admit it, but you are CORRECT, indeed. Egypt should clearly be part of the shame-list, together with the Arab regimes who are abusing the excuse of the "little Satan" Israel, in order to avoid democratic reforms in their countries. Fully d'accord with you. However, I don't agree when it comes to both the EU and the UN, they may also have made mistakes, but in comparison to the other "sinners" rather minor ones. Note, we Swiss are not part of the EU, so there is no reason for me to "whitewash" them... Still, I don't think we ever agreed on so much, did we...???

An interesting idea. BUT, do you think that an IDF operation will look like a "martyr operation"? The name will be confusing, but the reality will not. On the Palestinian part, any memory of the Warsaw ghetto may fit somewhat and may attain the intended goal. In any case, I don't mind watching the circus. Will be exciting.

Neither you nor the UN would know an international law if it bit you. Blockades are not occupation. As for a UN force, yes according to the UN Charter any nation can object to having a hostile force on their border. And yes the UN is a racist, terrorist supporting organization. So you are still wrong.

Amply illustrated in this latest round of internecine Gaza murder, as well as that of the entire ME problem (e.g. Iraq Sunni vs. Shiite murder), it is worth remembering a fundamental reality. The problems faced are really impossible to solve diplomatically because the issues are not political but medical. The mental derangement of those killing each other and the innoncents among their own as well as attempting to do the same to us, stems from a severe psychosis egged on by a feudal Moslem culture. Only the unlikely arrival of an army of many thousands, tens or hundreds of thousands of pschyatrists, psychoanalysts and mental therapists together with their psycho "couches" can possibly solve such a collective mental illness in so dire need of repair. An aid program providing many doses of mind altering drugs like prozac would also help. In the absense of such a cure, these "patients" will in all likelihood kill themselves and many unfortunate innocents.

Jebediah we've all tried our darnedest about the question of Occupation with Jeff N.Goodluck.I agree with the point about Israel not having a Treaty. Howdy Jeff,Gaza will most likely come under Hamas control.Possibly WB also.The real issue is that the Palestinians are going to accepted a truncated state.So the Arab Initiative is the only way to go for Israel. Claudia, this sueing business is a double edged sword.Forget it.There are other problems to be worked on,question of borders, the return of refugees etc.

Isn't it nice to read what Clickfool has to say! Hardly a day goes by without this man using the generous media services of Haaretz to spread poison about everything concerned with the state of Israel. He wants nothing better than to see the Palestinians overrun Israel and simply wipe the country off the map. At least he is consistently anti-Israeli and anti-semitic. Clickfool, you are a proud heir to your Aryan ancestors. Seig Heil Clickfool!

You're agreeing with Tosefta? have you completely lost your mind? What is this some sort of bloggers love fest? Get a grip man -better start filtering your tap water. Looks to me like Hamas is gonna win in both Gaza and WB. We have all been screaming for years about the endemic corruption of Fatah and its new alliance with USA/Israel(aka - the devil, great Satan, evil empire - choose one) seems to be pushing even more Pals into the warm embrace of Hamas. Here's an idea - lets convince Hamas to built their own "separation barrier" to keep the Israelis out of Gaza - in effect they would be walling themselves in!(just don't tell 'em).

If I was one of these fellows, I wouldn't stand around doing Rambo poses for the photographers from Reuters, unless that was the only way I could feed the kids.

Until Israel withdraws from the West Bank, Israel has only partially withdrawn from the Occupied territories. Therefore Israel is responsible for Gaza. That is not me making it up. It is what the UN said in 2005. If not why does Israel control Gazan airspace etc? Why did the daughter of the Terrorist Livni refuse to allow a UN force into Gaza, if Israel has nothing to do with Gaza?

Where he belongs. What's he ruling from Rahmallah for? It's about time we learn that Muslims are dangerous, period. And that profiling is an absolute. It's too late. We are going into hell with Islam pushing us all the way. There is no liberal Islamist, they are all radical. Learn and prepare. They HATE us all. d.dor

...we should respect life and love truth since no human being like you and me may handle truth. If it were so instantly fighting would start about religious truth as we see it know even among Muslims. See the denominations in every religion today and the confusion. Religion has something to do how people organize themselves in a society by growing numbers. It works well as long as there is no contact between societies following different religions. Since people have seen by every religion that it worked well till now they think their religion to be superior to the other and not to lose the thread cling full of fear to "God". This is the Gordian knot we have to cut. To say we got the truth and you are following a lie is like telling people that my mother is a fine lady and your's a prostitute. Here we are.

I am a long time Hagel supporter - draft the Chuckster!!! I don't know if you saw my earlier response to your "you're a Republican?" cry of astonishment - but briefly, I am a true conservative a la Hagel, Goldwater etc. None of this evangelical social activism for me. I like to say "I didn't leave the Republican party, the party left me". Keep fighting the good fight - blog on brother!

Hamas captureing US made armoured carriers and weapons by Olmert Rice and Bush what did you think would happen. Ho Hum I hate to say I told you so. Will someone organize a National Strike in Israel to force new elections please and put a strong goverment in charge please.

VHow about this as a possible scenario? In Gaza, Hamas wins and Fatah is destroyed. No chance of a unity government there. In Judea and Samaria, Fatah wins and Hamas is destroyed. No chance of a unity government there either. So ? what has happened to the idea of ?Palestine?? It will simply have disappeared. From now on, the inhabitants of Gaza will be just Gazans, and the inhabitants of Judea and Samaria just West Jordanians. No more ?Palestine?! No more ?Palestinians?!

Which is why the daughter of a terrorist Livni refused an Italien request for a UN force in Gaza. Why oes Israel not allow Gazans to fish? Why has Israel refused permission for a port to be built? Why don't the Gazans have responsibility for their own airspace? If Israel is truly out of Gaza why does Israel insist on an economic blockade of Gaza? Who is in government in Gaza is nothing to do with Israel. If Gaza are on their own, what business is the daughter of a terrorist Livni if there is a UN force or not in Gaza. Disinformation may work with some Gee but not with me. Israel is still responsible for Gaza under International Law. Go check the UN website.

In post #222 I looked at the implications from the point of view of the West Bank being free of Hamas (by Fatah revenge). But will Israel be able to tolerate a separate Gaza under Hamas? This is unlikely. Hamas will have the weapons to fire at Israeli cities, including Ashkelon. It may simply be necessary for Israel to retake Gaza and clean it up from Hamas and the other groups. Will then bring back Abbas and its security forces. As in my conclusion in #222, the new situation will present Israel with the unhappy need to finally stop pretending that there is "no partner".

What do mean it doesn't count? Did they or did they not solo? Did they or did they not land? Sounds like flying to me. As for wishing more to follow. I really have a very hard time no wishing ALL TERRORISTS in the entire world following those 2 examples. You aren't in favor of terrorists being killed? You support genocide? You are a sick individual. Me I could care less. If they are killing each that is their choice. Abraham Lincoln put it best. A young wife seeing her husband fighting with a bear. Kept hollaring 'Go husband!, go Bear!' Just to be on the safe side. Works for me, 'Go gittem boys!'

Howdy Jebediah; There is no requirement in international law for a peace treaty to be agreed to in order for an occupation to terminate. For example, there is no peace treaty between North and South Korea, but to say that either the North or the South is still occupying the other is absurd. An occupation ceases when either 1) the hostile army physically withdraws its ground forces from the territory in question so that it no longer has an established authority there or 2) the occupying power ceases to exercise the functions of government there. The Gaza Strip is currently under the administration, authority, and laws of the PA and its security forces and is not under Israeli martial law. Israel is only morally responsible for allowing humanitarian aid (like water, food, medicine, etc.) to reach the Gazans across her sovereign territory, but other than that, the welfare of the Gazans is the responsibilty of the PA. Furthermore, a peace treaty or lack thereof has nothing to do w

putting its foot down. Abu Mazen should leave the unity Government and opt for new elections, maybe Israel can help him win this time around, but the US will never allow for early elections. They feel they have been conned by Israel once and isn't going to opt for any elections soon. The Hamas have had enough from the Fatah and the story is that the Palestine National Council want Abu Mazen ousted as its Chairman. Abbas has absolutely NOTHING to show for appeasing the occupiers and the PLO knows that it is hardly "the sole representative of the Palestinian people" anymore. To bring Hamas into the PLO will take Abbas' head. The US should have put some kind of pressure on Israel to support this moderate, instead they let the Zionists carry on as usual, but this time they painted themselves into a corner. "Hide the brush Olmert".

Maybe the Israelis and the Pals need to find themselves a nice King Chaim to administrate the Gaza ghetto.

Swiss (Dino) "NO threat for Israel coming from the Arabs today, and definitely not from the Palestinians!" Be real for once, are you living in a bubble? I guess Iran is working on a time clock I guess Palestinians are throwing flowers on Sderoot City I guess Hisboola in Lebanon are playing with sticks and matches I guess they really teach the Koran in Moslem mosques I guess we Israelis have to change our hearing aid when we are threatened on daily bases by Arab propaganda for the distraction of Israel, by fanatic organizations

The 1967 invasion???

Are they sleeping????

is not happy for the killings, Just I think when terrorists are killing each other, the world is a better place for everybody.Ond this is what is going on in Gaza.

"It is extremely paranoiac to believe that everyone who condemns the Occupation, also supports Hamas` position on Israel." irrespective of what abbas says it is also the fatah position on Israel, just read the fatah constitution. Since abbas is to weak to change the fatah constitution,this makes rather futile any future israeli talks with abbas. duncan

Why isn't Egypt on the list? They have allowed tons of munitions into Gaza and they do control the border. I have a slightly different list of those responsible. 1). Hamas and Fatah are the most accountable. 2). The 'Palestinian' people for supporting terrorists. 3). Egypt for allowing tons of munitions and violating the peace treaty with Israel. 4). UN for the hypocracy and supporting terrorism. 5). The EU for funding terrorism and never condeming it. 6). The US for their support of terrorist governments like the PNA, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. 7). Israel for not standing up from the very first demanding the PNA fulfill their obligations.

"no Israeli governement will accept a deal that would threaten Israels security, " .... Israel did just that with oslo, when it let in arafat and his terror gang, leading to many more deaths from terror than it had ever had before. " here is simply no existential threat for Israel coming from the Arabs today, " It is outnumbered 50 to 1 in numbers and strategic depth by the arabs, It has been told many times by the arabs, we can afford to lose many times. You cannot even lose once. "this position of tremendous military strength that should allow Israel to send more positive diplomatic signals to her neighbours. " ... (1)Israel's army is not much use when Iran becomes nuclearised, to fulfill their stated ambission of destroying Isrel. If israel cannot prevent Iran getting the bomb by diplomacy or conventional means it will have to laubch pre-emptive nuclear strike on Iran, to ensure its survival. duncan

"honest broker" yeah right. The US has always had more in common with Israel than Arab countries especially during cold war. (Do you recall what country was flying Soviet Migs or what country was using S.C.U.D.s - soviet crap underdeveloped.) Oil is the only commodity from Arab nations the US is interested in. What honest brokers among Arab or European nations have lifted the Pals? Was it in september 1970 when King Hussien threw out the PLO? You be an honest broker to a people that hate you, that are willing to kill all innocent infidels by all means...The violence among Pals now has nothing to do with anyone but the Pals. Their violence and destruction has taken on a life of it's own. And unfortunately there are no real martyrs involved who can help put an end to this bloodshed..Jihad needs to be destroyed. Best hope is it implodes and many wonderful muslims root it out of their culture over the long term.

'Although there may not be Israeli troops in Gaza, under International Law as there was no Peace treaty signed with the belligerents (ie Palestinians) Israel still is the occupying power.' Not a requirement. We still don't occupy the PNA. They rule as the please so you are wrong. ' I suppose if Israel does not want to sign a treaty with the Palestinians they could sign a treaty with the Egyptians' I guess that you have never heard of the 1976 Camp David Peace Accord? We did so 31 years ago. 'Either way until there is a treaty Israel is still responsible for the Gaza Strip.' No you are wrong. They are and have been on their own.

Don't worry Fritz, we will take him. With open arms. He likes Davos, by the way.

They were given everything. Money money per capita than anyone else in the world. Hot houses for economy. Opportunity for commerce. What do they do? Kill anyone they can. Sick people. I dont feel any pity for them, but nor do I gloat. This is what happens when you appease evil. The Hamas/IJ/Fatah cancer spreads. When will the arabs stop struggling against peace and prosperity? They have been given so much opportunity, more than anyone else. Germany picked up the pieces, not once but twice after WWs. Japan did so after WWII. What is wrong with the Arab world? They are given so much and produce so little.

My Beloved Muslim Brothers, I urge you with all the strength of my deep devotion in the Great Prophet that do not stop! Victory is in sight! Honor is waiting for you all in Paradise! Allah Akhbar!

Can somebody explain to me; are the victims of the current fights in Gaza all martyrs? Will the Hamas and Fatah martyrs meet each other in paradise? Do both sides fight in the name of Allah? If the answers are 'yes', then the Pals are beyond help!

Jeff, you may have noticed that in #222 I also expect: "The question of a link WB-Gaza will of course come up, and a solution will be found, but implementation will have to wait." In other words, I don't believe the Palestinians will agree to a permanent split between WB and Gaza. But this is a matter of understanding reality, and I can't argue with you about it. You know why. For other readers I would mention that Gaza is already overcrowded and cannot be a viable state of its own. They need their hinterland for jobs, agriculture, and even clients for tourism.

How's my favourite liberal-cum-colonialist, middle-class, repressed racist? And more importantly how is the wonderfully non- eventful county of Sussex. Still oozing with losers I see.

What exactly are you missing here? Hamas doesn't even accept 1948 boundaries and vows to fight RELIGOUSLY for Tel Aviv until the end of time. They have no intention of budging on 'right of return' AT ALL, and the chances of Israel accepting 'right of return' are as nil as the U.K. trading coutries with India. There is no future for Hamas and they have NOTHING to offer the Palestinians except more war and suffering. If you despise the Palestinians that much that you are willing to sacrifice their civillians for your armchair opinions, then you are far FAR more evil than the majority of Israelis whom you villify.

the only flight experience the pals are getting is being tosed off high rise buildings. And you wish for thousands more to follow? You guys want to talk about genocide....Thats what Hamas is trying to do with any enemy. Death to Isreal, death to America, now it death to Fatah. They killed the guys 14 year old son and 3 woman in the houe for no reason. Thats right, Hamas now pratices genocide on Fatah. These people are such scum and have to be stopped. If there is gonna be killing let all the Hamas Scum die. Better yet, teach them to fly.

The US/Israel is arming fatah to take over hamas. Gaza will come under 'one gun' that will belong to US/Israel/Fatah.

If Gazans take your advice, I will advice Israeli women to yell and weep in high pitch for the cameras in Sderot, to call the IDF operations, "Martyr Operations", and every fallen, wounded IDF soldier will be a "shaheed". Furthermore, I will advice Israeli spokesmen and spokeswomen like Mark Regev and Miri Eisen to whine and rant for the cameras, just as Saeb Erakat and Hanan Ashrawi do, with no trace of shame. Ramallah will therupon be named "Occupied Bet El" and Halhoul will be called "Occupied Hebron", and will advice Israelis to sue Palestinians for compensation for all the terror attacks of the last 100 years. Perhaps Gazans will win the whining contest. The global media is already with their pathetic mythology. But they'd get a hell of a surprise!

Hi Tadchase, if everything else fails, it's good to still have a buddy over there in the beauti- ful Bay area. You know, I really hate to play here the devils advocate for Hamas (they couldn't be further away from my political position), but as a Swiss I get always slightly uneasy, if I see that a free and fair elected governement is going to be toppled (by whomever...). Keep busy with thinking over your Republican primaries...or maybe you would give a Bloomberg/ Hagel ticket a shot...?? Cheers.

pd:good for you

It is very cynical to accuse Israel, USA or the EU to be the origin of the internal Palestinian conflict; the problem of the Palestinian are the Palestinian! They are incapable to dialog within their own people. The solution? a State called Gaza Palestine and another State named West Palestine, which built a confederation with Jordanian.

Post #231 writes, "What do you mean by "the Occupation of Palestine"? You wouldn`t be including Israel in that like Hamas does now would you? Hmm?" By "the Occupation of Palestine" I refer to what the United Nations, International Law, the European Union and the United States recognizes as Palestine. They also recognize Israel's boundaries prior to the 1967 Israeli invasion. It is extremely paranoiac to believe that everyone who condemns the Occupation, also supports Hamas' position on Israel.

Brilliant comment Ben.

I wonder who Palestinians will blame for their latest act of self-destruction. They've cut out a niche for themselves as professional victims. Someone else is always responsible for all their woes. I'm sure they'll find some way to pin the blame on Jews. I wonder what the International Solidarity Movement has to say about this. Or have they all run back to their comfortable middle class lives in the West?

Trying to predict this Palestinian savagery will become another habitual blow against Israel is your wishful thinking, Clickfool, -scabrous hands rubbing included-. You may be right, it may well end up badly for Israel. But certainly you are writing with your guts, not providing evidence for your wishes coming true.

Duncan, don't worry, no Israeli governement will accept a deal that would threaten Israels security, you can rest assured on that. And again, I totally understand, that for histo- rical reasons you may see things a bit differ- ently, but from an outside point of view, there is simply no existential threat for Israel coming from the Arabs today, and defi- nitely not from the Palestinians. And it is exactly this position of tremendous military strength that should allow Israel to send more positive diplomatic signals to her neighbours.

Hitler was democratically elected too and look what that lead to. Hamas was essentially a "Hate Vote!" Israel, go ask Abbas and Dahlan what they need to defeat Hamas.

Although there may not be Israeli troops in Gaza, under International Law as there was no Peace treaty signed with the belligerents (ie Palestinians) Israel still is the occupying power. I suppose if Israel does not want to sign a treaty with the Palestinians they could sign a treaty with the Egyptians, who were the ones occupying Gaza in 1967. Either way until there is a treaty Israel is still responsible for the Gaza Strip.

Howdy Tosefta; You said, "Essentially, the PA will then be divided into two independent areas, WB and Gaza." More than that. The Gaza Strip will break away from the West Bank entirely and become a separate political entity independent of the PA. It's only a matter of time. I'm not sure if it will happen this time, but it will eventually. See my post # 221. In that case, there would be nothing to prevent the Gaza Strip from declaring independence and seeking international recognition. It would be good for Israel too since she could negotiate or deal with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip separately instead of as a single unified beast. Divide and conquer--that's the ticket.

Hi Ahmad, thanks very much for your kind words. And don't worry, I have seen enough storms in my life, so the extremists here on Haaretz Talkack feel more like a light afternoon breeze..... I very much hope for you that at least in Ramallah the situation will remain calm.

Take it easy, Lynn, I think with my # 63 I made it clear that I don't regard all 3 "sinners" as the same guilty. Of course, nobody told the Palestinian factions to start this bloody war for power, therefore the first blame will have to go to them. However, I assume you will understand why the U.S. and Israel are sharing the third "sinner" place and not Iceland or Paraguay: It is simply a fact that if the U.S. would not for decades have refused to play the role of an honest broker in the ME conflict, we would not be, where we are today. And it is also a fact, that if Israel over the past few years had not made everything possible to strengthen the exremists and weaken the moderates on the other side (shunning of Abbas, unilateral Gaza withdrawal f.e.), we would (most probably) not be, where we are today. So I think my analysis was quite accurate.

For Decades Israel has suffered at the hands of violent Palestinians while the world has stood by and blamed Israel the victim. Now the world sees the true colors of the Palestinians by how they treat each other which is with utter disregard for humanity and decency. Hamas and Fatah kill Palestinian women and children for kicks just like they killed Jews. Now the Palestinian people know whats its like to fight against immoral Palestinians and we see their "true colors".

Perhaps if only we could get the English Academics to go to Gaza to speak with Hamas, then the fighting between Hamas and Fatah could be stopped. Certainly the hamas Academics and the English Academics are natural allies and they could have many rational and fruitful discussions. Perhaps the hamas academics could present a paper on the ethical justifications for throwing Palestinians off of hi rise buildings, and the British academics could discuss Italian painting during the in the 15th Century.

As that nation split from Pakistan after a civil war, its a likely scenario over the long-term.

Only the 'Palestinians' could establish a successful flight school with a 100% solo rate without aircraft or airport. This might the single greatest Arab accomplishment in history. Two students managed to solo on their 1st attempt and even managed prefect landing. Dang now that is a true feat worthy of the entire Arab world. I can only hope that hundreds of thousands more 'Palestinians' have the same experience very shortly. They have earned their wings, time to fly.

Israel must stay out of this completely. It doesn't matter who wins. General Dayton is a fool if he believes that Fatah represents the forces of moderation, and Hamas are "radicals". They're all radicals. Israel must resist American demands to transfer weapons to Fatah. After they finish killing each other, they'll turn their shiny new guns on Jews.

"Palestine is an emerging democracy going through the birthpangs of a nation.It must be respected especially as it struggled for its life under terrible circumstances.What we are seeing now is robust affirmative action that will settle down once the people are empowered and confident in excercising their new democracy. Good luck to our dear Palestinians. We pray for you." -Meg Meg, are you crazy? Do you really think that Hamas will allow elections once they are in control? Actually, what is going to happen here is that we are going to end up with Hanastan in Gaza and Fatahstan in the West Bank. After most of the Pals leave Hamastan, only the radicals will be left, and this entity will be seen by Egypt as a dire Moslem Brother threat. Gaza will then be depopulated by both Egypt and Israel until it will not pose a threat to the region. Meg, groups like Hamas have no use for democracy once they attain power. Democracy must be part of the political platform, with Hamas its NOT!

"The Iraq war was the biggest disaster in Israeli history" I wouldnt be too sure about that. Many alliances have been created ---several of which would have never happenned.

Dear "Rush", did I hit a nerve with my earlier post...??? Don't worry, I never said that the U.S. would not have been a staunch "friend" and ally of Israel over the past decades. Honestly, I just think it would have been better for all parties (Israel included), if the U.S. would have been a friend instead of a "friend". The difference: A friend will tell his buddy if he gets the feeling that the partner has lost the right path to peace. A "friend" will just say yes and amen to every- thing the buddy does, regardless of the possible consequences. Believe me, there is nothing I wish more, than that the U.S. would become a true friend of Israel. P.S. I think the Yom Kippur war was 1973 and not 1972..... But I really don't wanna be faint-hearted...:)

I tought Gaza was a closed area. How is it possible that so many weapons are there. On some photos I even saw fighters with modern M-4 rifles. Can all these weapons come from Egypt alone? And who allows them to come in, surely somebody must be looking the other way at the border?

You need to open your eyes and read Leon R's work carefully to fully appreciate the commentary. His wit is very dry, and you should take that perspective before pounding the table about his supposed 'revolutionary' aspirations.

He made the mistake not to protect his gouvernement, the elected gouvernement of Palestine, against the "civilised world" aka EU, Israel and USA. Instead he misused his power by not stopping Fatah from attacking Hamas. He lost every credibility, sad, but he must go. Exile in Switzerland, if necessary. He is a part of the problem and not of the solution.

Well, from me you only got the "pragmatist", didn't you...??? So you got a taste now how it feels to get the heat from all sides.... Don't worry, you can live with it, in the end it will only thicken your skin. Just don't overact, otherwise you might end up as Elephant-man II.... Okay, London might not be the worst place for that...:)

I hope that Europe will accept some Palestinian refugees, and get a taste of what Israel is living through.

With pleasure...:)

Michael, good to hear more moderate Israeli voices. Look, I conceed that from an Israeli perspective it makes sense to support the more "moderate" people on the other side. However, it seems to me a bit short-sighted. On the long term, Israel might have been better off by accepting the outcome of the Palestinian elections (as painful they may have been for Israel) and try a (diplomatic) strategy of strengthening Abbas and the more moderate elements in the PA. Because Fatah would have urgently needed a process of purification. And both the U.S. and Israel are not allowing that to happen with their involvement. So if it goes according to the will of the U.S. and Israeli administrations, the same corrupt Fatah will get into power again by a "Coup d'Etat." That doesn't change a bit the fact that Hamas also deserves the blame for stubbornly refusing to accept Israels right to exist.

Hamas are better fighters and will survive like the Taliban. The question is when will they start going to the gorilla method against Fatah (yes just like Iraq and AFTN. you will see a lot of civilians casualties) The only way to prevent this is for both parties agreing to elections fast like yesterday. History is our lesson, and it only indicates a bad, realy bad omen. I must say its not fair, its barbaric; and its sad. I'm sure that Ah-MAD-in-jihad got what he wants: Destabilize the ME so he can build his bomb.

Isn't that what Hamas are doing? I'm sure you recall the stories of Fatahs corruption - Arafats stolen millions, the graft and incompetence, etc. At the same time Hamas was the organization that fed the people, provided the schools,teachers etc., which is where it derives its popular support. Indeed Hamas is evocative of American Republicans - both are faith based organizations who believe their actions both moral and ethical. It would be great if adults were to put the interests of innocent children first - but human nature seems to dictate a different set of priorities. regards

"you claim a "weakened" US and Israel" How else would you describe an America that has squandered trillions in Iraq (all on borrowed money that will burden it for generations to come) and that is now looking desperately for ways to wriggle out of the unwinnable morass without losing face? How else would you describe Israel that faces a future of a nuclear-armed Iran and hostile Islamic extremist forces on every border? The Iraq war was the biggest disaster in Israeli history.

Muslims are killing each other and you look for someone to blame.. Scape-goating Jews and Israeli iss crap. Do you really think that the one who is going out to pull the trigger on another Muslim is thinking anything but my "enemy is attacking us"? Many Muslims have much hate and direct much violence to one another, in addition to all infidels. Jews are just an excuse as is the great satan. Too bad, these pals can't get any milage from their superordinate goal of hating jews, westerners, and anything that isn't their brand of Islam. Too bad innocent paelstinian children are murdered by their own "holy" people.

"pity you no living in Israel" Me happy living in Sussex.

Haaretz editorial might experiment with the sanity of its readers , or give us all those Palestinian causes --do you really think you will ever have peace with nomads called palestinians . Problem is nobody wants to say as it is ---3 STATE SOLUTION : JORDAN, EGYPT , ISRAEL , should devide it all and finish the story once and for all.