Arab MKs: Bid to bar trips to enemy states is 'racist'

Accusing someone as "anti-Semitic" for simply but politely disagreeing with your viewpoints is a personal affront, Mr Teich. You assume far too much about me to make your attacks even vaguely accurate. Still, you've been very instructive. I can now see the Palestinians are not entirely unjustified in their bitterness toward at least some Israelis. And I wonder at the fount of your own bitterness as well. You have my pity. MV

Or maybe its just that you're usually quiet and don't make a fool of yourself? One thing you should do is understand the concept of "ad hominem". It's not when I directly address what you say and show a label such as "anti-semite" fits and then you refuse to address the points I made that show it. Rather, it's when you claim I have "personal ill-will" against you without stating why it's personal. That's ad hominem. I don't have any personal issue with you, but do have a problem with anyone spouting antisemitic rhetoric.

Mr Teich: I've never encountered the personal ill-will directed toward me before such as you have. It's unfortunate you have to resort to ad hominem attacks. Please do us both a favour, and refrain from them in the future? You'll spare yourself and others a great deal of unnecessary communication. MV

An entire thread is deleted from a talkback. I guess it was just too much use of definitions, facts, urls and logic in defense of Israel, 'eh?

So it's no surprise to see you thinking that quoting you and showing your spoke nonsense is somehow a "personal attack." It's also noted you didn't address the points I made, that you made unsubstantiated and provably wrong claims, just whine that I pointed that out. As for my "unsupported accusations", you continue to support them by the evasions you use. Truth is always a defense to claims of libel. "particularly one of anti-Semitism". What I said was, and I quote, that you: "support an antisemitic view". I did't say you're antisemitic. You could just be a fool. "without even knowing whether I`m Jewish", not something to obviate antisemitism, as Pappe and others regularly show. Self-hate is still hate. "Israeli citizen", same thing. We have citizens openly supporting our enemies, since we have a democracy and free press. "Petach Tikva", ahh, that's why you're in LA? Poor Morris, your own statements & avoidance of discussion continue to show that the charge of antisemite runs t

David, Normally, I wouldn't respond to a personal attack, but I do want to say I'm sorry that is your best defence. You make a number of unsupported accusations - particularly one of anti-Semitism, without even knowing whether I'm Jewish, if I'm an Israeli citizen, or if I have a box full of Israel Bonds tucked under my bed in Petah Tikva. Others reading your post, if they are already disinclined to support Israel, will likely be further confirmed in their views by your readiness to shout "anti-Semite!" at anyone who disagrees with your views. But at least your ability to freely express your view proves Israel still is something of a democracy. I hope the Arab MKs continue sharing that freedom into the future. Boker Tov, v'Shalom.

Since he certainly can't think or see clearly. "it be much less likely the Israeli right wing would protest..." 1) Where would you get that idea? The Right wingers don't want any talks but want the Golan annexed yesterday. 2) An unapproved trip is just that, and even moderates here are capable of understanding that which you ignore. "The proposed prohibition singles them out". How? Where does it say it only applies to Arab MKs? You make specious claims to support an antisemitic view. Either that's your normal way of life, or those Socal fires have fogged your mind. Get some fresh air.

The law is absolutely not racist. It applies to all those who travel to an enemy state.-CJK And if a country were to pass a law saying that no one can wear a yamaka, that would not be racists either, as it applies to everyone. If a prohibition, like the law against travel, is aimed at, or primarily affects only the Arabs, then by definition it is racists. Obviously, the Arab MKs have trouble understanding that they are Israelis first.-CJK Can?t they claim Dual Loyalty as many Jews in America and other countries? Or is Dual loyalty only available to Jews? hypocrite

שבת שלום

Your tremendously brave support of the antiApartheid movement from the safety of the UK is obviously much more commendable than anything we SA Jews who were actually there did against the movement and I salute you.

You live very much in your imagination and allocate roles to others. This is truly breathtaking about me. "she believes she has a right to destroy another people to live in Israel." Where did you get it from? Why attach it to me? You are delusional or an idiot.

Hello, Cipora, I think we're playing at words now. Whether an MK visits "hostile" or "enemy" states, it really doesn't change the essential need for legislators to have freedom to travel abroad. And in other democracies, they do so, both singly and in delegations, with and without the blessings of their executive. The Basic Law of 1992 on Human Dignity and Liberty, passed by the 12th Knesset, clearly states, in section 6:: "(a) All persons are free to leave Israel." "(b) Every Israel national has the right of entry into Israel from abroad". I assume MKs are covered. Now, you may hide behind the argument that this question is an internal Israeli matter. But you surely must realise the world, including democracies which are Israel's allies, are closely watching this unfold. Every step Israel takes away from freedom and democratic behaviour weakens those bonds of friendship. It seems a great price to pay for fear of letting an MK visit another nation. Kind regards.

Deborah A Song just for you, Tell me if you understand the lyrics, It is a nice one, BoB Dylen wrote it! Called The Neighborhood Bully http://youtube.com/watch?v=WlHlXHimo_g

You don't understand why Olmert wants to meet with the Arab states? And then you say that the only way to peace is to meet with your enemies. So..wtf are you talking about..that's exactly what he wants to do(or says he does)..meet with his enemies.

As for Destroying another people to live in Israel, I disagree with you completely, but this is something that has to be seen from a different point of view not a biased as yours, for us Israelis it is a self-defense all the way (and I don?t mind if you say my judgment on this issue is also biased for it might as well be)!

Deborah Deborah I don?t know what kind of crooked Idea you have of Israel, But you have to change you Vocabulary towards Israel, Murder, Steal, Destroy As for Murder no one is murdering anyone, there is an armed conflict in the area, you support the Palestinians and I support Israel, to say that Israel?s response as much as you don?t like it is murder is not acceptable, it could have been if the other side was passive, such was the case in the year 1919 when the British brigade shoot into a crowd of peaceful demonstrators killing or as you prefer murdered 400 unarmed civilians in a single blow (look it up the British mandate in India a grate occupation for your Empire). As for Stealing No, some of us can trace are routs farther then any So-called Palestinian Arab, I have nothing to be sorry about when it comes to this issue, for I am a Palestinian Jew! continued #2

Now you are referring to them as "hostile states," not as enemy states. Israel is faced with enemy states. You should also keep in mind that parliamentarians from the US who make visits usually do so as part of their parties' delegations, and not as individuals who represent no one besides their domestic constituencies. No domestic minority has the right to engage in foreign affairs of their own. Ultimately, this is a domestic issue, not an international one.

The difference is that I have never supported war in Iraq, I agree about the Falklands and Ireland, Australia and much, much more. Margie on the other hand excuses all the crimes committed by Israel because she believes she has a right to destroy another people to live in Israel. Of course you cannot understand that because more than likely you believe that Israel and Margie have the right to murder and steal for their own greed too.

Hello again, Cipora, 1. The proposed legislation certainly applies to all MKs; but Arab MKs would likely be most affected by it, and it is the right-wing (with not an Arab MK in the lot) backing it. Proposed legislation must be evaluated in part on the basis of whom it would most likely affect; if the effect is severely discriminatory, I would argue it is also undemocratic in nature. 2. Democracy can be very messy. Yes, the executive is empowered to conduct negociations and propose treaties with foreign powers; but members of the legislature in mature democracies are free to visit other nations -even hostile ones - to discuss matters of mutual interest with their officials. The executive often is unhappy with these activities, but such is the nature of democracy. Kind regards.

1 The proposed legislation is neutral, i.e., it applies to all MKs, and thus it does not single out any group in its intent. 2 I am quite certain that any MK who went to Syria, or had contacts with Hezbollah, without the sanction of the government, would also be in trouble. Just imagine if all members of the government and the Kneset decided to have their own foreign policy initiatives.

Deborah Learn your History Deborah, if you are from the UK you have nothing to be proud about What the hell is Iraq? Aren?t your forces occupying Iraq, or is it an just illusion? What the hell is the Falkland Islands in Argentina? How the hell did you get their to claim the Land so far away from your homeland Britain? What about Ireland have you forgot your history there too, the big cover up on Sunday, yes that Sunday the one called Sunday bloody Sunday! Do you really think you didn?t occupy them as well! What about the Atomic bomb tests in Australia? Till this day your bomb experiment in a foreign country is actually killing aborigines! Deborah stop being so arrogant, especially over Margie, Look Up Jews in South Africa you will see that those people had done more then you ever could do from your cozy site in the UK for breaking Apartheid rule in South Africa! What did you do boycott South Africa LOL!

Hadash Chairman MK Mohammed Barakeh said that "If we have to choose between loyalty to our people, or serving in the Knesset, then good luck to the Knesset. We don't want you." - And we need these people in our country? If they like Syria and Lebanon so much then they should move there, we'd only be too happy to see that happen!!

Cipora, Thank you for your kind response. I would offer the rebuttal that MKs indeed are part of the Government - the legislative branch. Whilst the executive may be empowered to negociate on behalf of the state, I can see no prohibition in Israeli basic law on MKs - Arab or Jew - from having discussions with members of other governments, friendly or hostile. Here is why I think your argument may be specious: if a Jewish MK wanted to travel to Damascus and have a direct discussion with a member of the Syrian parliament, would it be much less likely the Israeli right wing would protest, than if an Arab MK were to make exactly the same trip and speak with exactly the same Syrian? I think we both know. The Arab MKs, unfortunately, are correct. The proposed prohibition singles them out. That is not fair, nor just, nor democratic. Israel really needs to decide whether it wants to be a insular Jewish theocracy, or a democratic state with the attendant risks. Kind regard.

You should feel embarrased. She is right, you are a bigot. Even me, an 18 yo can see through you, how sad.

Just because they have Torah, they does not make them Jewish. Christians have Torah too(OLD TEST), though they have incorporated Brit HaChadasha (NEW TEST). Though they are great people, and very interesting, they are not Jews.

then why PM Olmert is so interested that the SAUDIS attend the coming ?? Peace Meeting at Annapolis, maryland? and why is he so interested to meet the ARAB STATES' LEADERS.? which I'm pretty sure are all enemy states. The Knesset Members(Extreme Right) seem to forget one make PEACE with its enemies, not their friends.Salaam

have been passed in the KENESSET since the creation of Israel by the UN.(League of Nations) Something- NO.of Laws PASSED =??? No. of RACISTS Laws Passed=??? Percentages of RACIST Laws to general Laws. =??? Wouldn't that make a nice reading???

Racists, nothing to do with Peace. What a thought -"stop ARAB MKs returning and then send their FAMILIES after them." how nice, what kind of a mentality is that? bear you forgot to add to your disgusting statement, then , "WE WILL G R A B their properties, as they are NOW absent from the DEMOCRATIC Israeli state.." Good thinking bear, you are certainly something.

Now I thought this talkback was about a proposed Israeli law. And I find that according to ChanahS I have to prove my credentials by denouncing Arab disctatorships. But, ChanahS, you yourself claim "There is absolutely no similarity between Israel and Arab dictatorships". Well, certainly Israel was set up to be something quite different. And it has tried - under very difficult circumstances - to live up to that. But for a long time now many of those who started off admiring and supporting Israel have seen her become more and more like those Arab dictatorships. And to see the "Israel, right or wrong" crowd claim that she has the right do anything that Syria does is frankly disgusting. You are happy that having visited an Arab country bars someone from Israeli public life when rapists, fraudsters, and corrupt politicians are welcomed? And spare me the BS about passing information to the Syrias: you really think one has to visit Syria to do that?

Read about the history of the Jews in South Africa and their contribution to the fight against Apartheid and you will know everything you need to know. It is this very assumption of yours that identifies people's attributes automatically with the name of their race, their country or their skin colour that our struggle attempted to combat and that you are perpetuating.

What more actually do you want from Israel? You have all far better life in Israel compare to Arab countries. And know you want to betray Israel? Shame on you thick face!!!! "Hadash Chairman MK Mohammed Barakeh said that "If we have to choose between loyalty to our people, or serving in the Knesset, then good luck to the Knesset. We don't want you." Who is our people MK Mohammed Barakeh referring to? Are they the terrorist? This blunt statement obviously should not come from the mouth our Israel representative in the KNESSET. On this statement he should already be sued for being a traitor. Hey.. Israeli.. Listen.. The Israeli Arab is trying to exploit the democratic system in Israel for reaching their goal. You should not allow this to happen. You should protest and abolish and ban all Israeli Arab to become your representative. They dont deserve that position. They are just a boomerang to you. What good has come from these people to your country? NONE.. BIG NILL. WOLVES IN SHEEP SKIN-

Give up Peter. Real history has caught up with the propaganda that was fed to us by invading colonizers... Israel is crying out for immigrants, just wondered why you are not obliging?

For a long time now Arab political leaders in Israel have shown a total inability to understand what it means to be a responsible and loyal part of the state. Identification with and providing aid to the enemy, even moral comfort clearly is treason. The reason they seem not to understand that is that the super-guilty for no- good- reason Jewish Left has condoned this behavior. It is time for Israel to act a bit like a normal state in demanding fundamental loyalty from its legislators.

So it's narrow minded to want peace for all, is it? Moving from one apartheid to another when Margie is clearly a racist should be tackled. This is the first time I raised the subject and her replies prove my point.

What is my name? Your point is somewhat lost Margie. Does that mean I don' think I should have human rights? Stop playing the victim, it's pathetic. 'People like you' means people who support the state terrorism of Israel because you think you have the right to do so. Your obsessed with race. You have to turn all criticism into a race issue because you cannot otherwise defend your stance. South Africans lived under apartheid and now you are living under a second apartheid and talking about the indigenous population like they are beneath you so it's hard to imagine you were against South African apartheid. I and my family campaigned for the end of the apartheid system. Did you and yours help bring about it's end?

I shall address only one of your points, regarding diplomacy. I believe very strongly in diplomacy, including ones that are back channel. Nevertheless, such diplomacy must be sanctioned by the government, and it cannot be conducted by defying the government. Indeed, visits of enemy states by parliamentarians undermines diplomatic efforts that might be taking place in secret. Furthermore, these MKs base their argument on their right as Arabs to visit any Arab country. That is not an acceptable position.

Just remember Jews have lived continuously in Israel long before the Arab invaders. They also immigrated to Israel peacefully for centuries and pourchased land. The Arabs tried to steal it by pogroms,war,terror and now by telling lies in English and telling their people the truth in Arabic. When are you moving to an Arab country as your loyalty to them far exceeds your praise of your so called own country which you can only criticise.

Why don't you ask what colour my skin is as well Deborah . When you say 'people like you' you mean Jews and that they therefore are less worthy than others. You say you support human rights but to you Jews or South Africans have no human rights because of who they are. Yes, I've seen people like you before making assumptions because of race or place of birth. They're called racists. Nobody has restricted the law to Arabs only. If a Jewish MK betrayed the voters using our tax money he'd be a traitor.

What a load of cr.p,calling these two Israeli Jewish MK's racists.tThey have Israel's national security at heart,and that is all that really matters. Those Arab MK's who are denigrating Israel at every oppurtunity should be given their marching orders,one thing that they all have in common(besides being seditious)they are all fat very very fat,in fact obese.This is what their good life in Israel did to them.Getting fat on the Israeli taxpayers expense.

to live in Australia, as opposed to living in Israel? No strong attachment to the land of Israel, Peter? And as for your comment, "The Arab countries you pimp for." Just remember Peter, British colonialism/Zionism/Americanism took war to the Middle East.

Well,you would make me laugh too,if you weren't so narrow minded..why do you feel it necessary to constantly bring up the fact that Margie used to live in South Africa? What does that have to do with anything? Your'e not the only one that mentions that,but if that's you're best shot,then you had better give it up.

It's what politicians do. But, I just found out a law regtarding the issue is already on the books.

Read post #82

How many Jewish Supreme court judges,members of Parliament,ministers and speakers of parliament are there in the"non racist" Arab countries you pimp for? How many black South Africans held positions like that in the old SA that spin doctors try to equate with Israel.?

It was not sanctioned.

:)

United States is not in war with Syria. Wake up

that Azmi Bishara passed data to Hizbollah? Obviously he was another persecuted Arab Knesset member in racist Israel.

Hello, Cipora, Your response to Axel is correct on its legal points. However, I believe Axel is questioning the proposed legislation on its ethics. I feel I must question it, too, but on more practical terms. I do recognise every decision the Government of Israel makes must consider Israel's existential needs, and that an MK visiting an enemy state may pose a security risk. However, the legislative bodies of both the US and UK, to the best of my knowledge, do not restrict its members from visiting enemy states. Such visits, it is recognised, have the potential to serve the cause of peace, as they provide a channel for constructive discussion between levels of opposing governments, where diplomacy can be better practiced out of the public eye and the glare of the media. Advancing peace requires taking risks and talking with your enemies (sometimes outside of formal channels). Stifling MKs stifles the chance for peace. Give peace a chance - let it breath freely.

You're the one who started talking about your taxes and my point is merely that it's also their taxes. You always talk like they (Arab Israelis and others) are second class citizens who don't deserve the same rights as people who often weren't even born in Israel. That's probably because that's how they are treated and seemingly how you like them to be treated. Any people who treat other people like they are second class or worse, whether for racial or gender reasons is a disgrace to humanity.

You make me laugh. Please do explain why you say I am a bigot? It will be interesting reading how you manage it. So you believe I am racist for wanting people like you to stop thinking they have a right to destroy a people because those people have what they want. I support human rights not arrogant people who believe they can take what they want no matter who pays for their greed. I've never occupied another people. I've never supported murder or stolen land or property. I live within international law as someone who believes in the human rights of all, not just some. Why did you leave South Africa and more importantly when?

They should allowed to go!! of course they should, just dont let them back in!!! HA HA HA HA!!!!!

They are investigated, put in prison and/or killed. One of them, an Iraqi Member of Parliament, had his two sons murdered by death squads upon returning to Baghdad because of that. Journalist Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury from Bangladesh was severely beaten, had his office and businesses ransacked and closed and he is in poor health in jail facing trial, all for visiting Israel. Another example is Prof. Fouad Ajami who cannot go back to visit his native country, Lebanon, because of death threats after he was in Israel. Even Egyptian personalities are chastised in public if they visit Israel the Zionist state, and Egypt supposedly has a Peace Treaty with Israel.

Some Arab MKs are disloyal, but not all of them. What about Raleb Majadele, Nadia Hilou, and Majalli Whbee? They represent Labour and Kadima factions. Do not taint all Arab MKs with the disloyalty brush. That said, Israel needs to elect a better crop of Arabs to Knesset so that we can have more loyal Arab MK's in power and less traitors.

You are typical coward idiot and pathological liar, hiding your name and residence.

You are turning full circle back to your post # 40, and that makes it boring.

"1 Every legislative body has the right to pass laws regulating its members. If the law applies to all members equally, it cannot be considered discriminatory. 2 Legislative bodies can decide that no members are allowed to visit enemy states. Such legislation is passed as a national security law, and is in no way racist or anti-democratic." Of course they have the right, and of course they can. I did not deny it, did I? But how what they can, and have the right to do, preserves the equilibrium of power between the parliament and government, is quite another question.

Perhaps legalise sending sending young Arabs to serve in the army of the enemy as an alternative to national service in Israel? Why muck around with half measures?

Perhaps legalise sending sending young Arabs to serve in the army of the enemy as an alternative to national service in Israel? Why muck around with half measures?

May a Jewish mk visit arab countries, excluding Morocco, Jordan and Egypt???

The fact an arab is more likley to wish to visit an enemy state doesnt mean that a jew wont. Its like saying that making honour killings illigal is racist because more muslims are likley to carry out an honour killing than a jew but that doesnt mean no jew will ever carry out an honour killing. Israel is also not the only democracy in the world where its illigal for a citizen to visit an enemy state without permision. What we dont want is Israelis going to enemy states having little chatsand showing solidarity for the leaders then coming to Israel being allowed to sit in the Knesset defend the enemy policies and influence goverrnment policy making. If an Israeli wants to go visit the enemy fine but just dont expect to be able to return hime and be put in a position of power. Its not an unreasonable policy especialy considering the way the arab MK Bishra behaved by siding with the enemy and given the chance would have retrurned to the Knesset.

All through history people that traveled to declared ennemy states were not only barred from serving in parliament but tried for treason. I believe that iranian or syrian lawmakers are forbidden to go to Israel without risking prison. But as usual Israel is held to different standards.

This law is not racist, but stupid. We don't need this kind of laws to expose the true face of the arabs.During the darkest days of the war of terror and the war in the north they never showed a iota of solidarity with the state and with they fellow citizens.

In the following countries who had and still have some Jewish citizen left name any Jewish Minister since 1920 (arbitrary starting point in modern history: Syria, how many and who? Iraq, How many and who? in Lebanon, how many and who? in Egypt, how many and who? in Libya,how many and who ? In Tunisia, how many and who? In Algeria, how many and who? In Moroco, how many and who? In Saudi Arabia, how many and who? in Yemen how many and who? in Aden cbefore merging with Yemen, how many and who? in United Arab Emirate, how many and who? Extend the list to Moslem States: in Iran, how many and who? in Pakistan, How many and who? in Bangladesh, how many and who? In Malaysia, how many and who? In Indonesia, how many and who? Don't avoid the question and answer

"Anyway, which arab country has 20 percent of its population belonging to the jewish faith?" And the reason for this state of affairs? Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, and all north african countries had flourishing Jewish communities until the governments and locals turned on them and kicked them out, confiscating all their property (less in north African countries). So what's your point?

1 Every legislative body has the right to pass laws regulating its members. If the law applies to all members equally, it cannot be considered discriminatory. 2 Legislative bodies can decide that no members are allowed to visit enemy states. Such legislation is passed as a national security law, and is in no way racist or anti-democratic.

Tareq thanks for the education. The reason there are so few Jews in arab countries is because they were kicked out, persecuted and made unwelcome. If you really want to be honest about it, as long as the Arabs, Hezbollah, Hamas etc wish to destroy Israel, and Arab MP's show support for Israel's enemies, it is hard for most Israeli's not to be suspicious of their motives. If peace were the order of the day, I have no doubt Arabs would be made to feel much more welcome.

What do you call my inability as a Jew to visit Saudi Arabia? You are a hypocrite.

Perhaps you are implying that being a friend to the country that your country's troops are fighting is somehow moral and offers a balance to their abilities. Very amusing and original. Giving aid and comfort to the enemy is a crime in most Western democracies. Cosying up to your country's enemy is a particularly heinous crime.

The US has not been at war with Syria. Nevertheless, those that went should have stayed home.

How is that possible ??? Arabs are caucasian and so are most Israelis......wheres the racism? That word has been bandied about more than "the war on terror"

The law is absolutely not racist. It applies to all those who travel to an enemy state. Obviously, the Arab MKs have trouble understanding that they are Israelis first.

Israel is somewhat democratic, but not totally. But even in a total democracy, laws can be passed that are not totally in line with freedom. Israel is not a totally free country. So ??? Also, keep in mind that extreme right winger Meir Kahane was forbidden from running for prime minister because of alleged racism.

It's obvious that uneducated people who want to hysterically smear people and countries with labels that have dastardly connotations have no idea what words really mean. That's why we're always hearing from the Arabs, Palestinians, Pops, Natallie, Clickfool, and other fools about "Palestinian genocide" or "Zionist Nazis." They obviously don't understand the meaning of these words, or if they do, they are just using them to demonize Israel so that other undeducated people who are easily misled into hatred will be fooled. What's racist about prohibiting a visit to the enemy? It's ridiculous!

All the leeches have hooked into Labarse's inane comments re the subject. Of course none of them know a sh*t about either SA or Israel.

What does Margie's argument have to do with South Africa? All Israel's citizens pay tax, and all should be subject to its laws - what's the connection. Government officials are paid with the people's taxes and are therefore subject to public scrutiny. Does being an Arab MK place him above the law? You probaly come from an Arab dictatorship where leaders can do what they want and screw the population - and it shows.

They only have to get a non-Muslim State to declare war on Israel, then it'll apply to them too. However, since: 1) Only Muslim States have done so 2) Islam isn't a race Then I'm not sure where the racism really is...

What about countries that declare war on Israel and keep threatening it with destruction?

Yes, Iranians are not arab, and no I was not thinking of the Iranian parliament. FYI, the Palestinian Authority includes a few seats for Jewish samaritans. Besides that, Morocco and Tunis are two of which I know, though it could be more. True, Jews are probably under represented in arab parliaments, I was just protesting the ignorant statement that there are LAWS prohibiting jews from joining arab parliaments. Aside from perhaps Saudi Arabia, that is simply not true! Anyway, which arab country has 20 percent of its population belonging to the jewish faith? Most of my compatriot Israeli Arabs vote for zionist parties and jewish MPs that have been systematically shafting us for decades!!! And the ignorants on this forum are calling us a 5th column!!!

By visiting enemy countries unchecked, Arab MK are criminalizing themselves. There is nothing untoward about this law, and it's one that most countries have.

But none of this pertains to Israel.

It would be even more magnificent if the obnoxious defenders of disloyal Arab MKs stopped bashing Israel and commented on the fact that Jews aren't even allowed to live in Jordan and own property there and that Israelis are not allowed to enter any Arab bountry with an Israeli passport. There is a huge difference between not allowing Arab MKs to visit ENEMY countries and barring entry to Jews. There is absolutely no similairy between Israel and Arab dictatorships - about which you are speciously silent.

Come on Tareq. So there is a token Jewish MP in Iran and one in Tunisia if I'm not mistaken. Jews are not allowed to live in Jordan or own property there. Why have I not heard from you that this is racist? Israelis are not allowed to enter any Arab country in the Mideast on an Israeli passport (so how did they let Israeli (Arab) Mks in? Is this not racist?

Next time I'm in Israel we'll have to arange a meeting, also with Chana.

I don?t usually reply to posts such this one but this is so ludicrous and unbelievable, it makes me wonder what the criteria are for the Haaretz moderators to filter posts out.

"You are imposing standards, I`m attempting to define the limits" Now we try to escape in pathetics, do we? First, I am NOT imposing standards. How could I? I cannot do more than OBSERVE, and I observe that you do not live up to the standards of western democracies. Second, the limits which you pretend to define are meant to distort the equilibrium of checks and balances between parliament and government.

Elections are Elections, but if Traitors were Expelled or Executed, they would not be electing these MKs anymore either.

Of course anyone can hate Israel and be the Enemy of the Jewish People and the Jewish People should really be more willing to kill those who are actively trying to kill us.

Only if they were dropping Bombs on them.

This article does not mention the very important fact that it is already illegal for an Israeli citizen to visit one of the countries that defines itself as being at war with Israel. That law applies equally to all Israeli citizens whether they are Jews, Arabs, members of the Knesset or not. Some racist politicians believe that as Arabs they are above the law. They are not. In no other country, however, is there so much democracy that it is necessary to pass a new law before you can enforce the old one.

Assuming these Childish Hypocrites can Find One! You join our enemies, you are our enemy, you come back, we have the Obligation To Shoot You Until You Are Dead as the Invading Jihadist You Are.

"Racist" has come to mean to the Israel bashig crowd,"I need to trump this discussion." Rather than "racist", I think the correct word is "treason" or perhaps "aiding, abetting and giving comfort to the enemy in a time of war." In the US , thats a capitol offense.

You are imposing standards, I'm attempting to define the limits

I sent you a howsit the other day but Haaretz didn't think it relevant.

I was raised in England and understand your humor. Others may not and may take you seriously. So be careful ...

Hi Margie, Seems as if us ex South Africans have a bit of a thing going here on Haaretz. Chanah S is also an ex SA

But where else will they earn such good money and get such good perks? Hopefully Meretz will be next :-) Fortunately Meretz is unlikely to be in the next Knesset because it won't reach the threshold! The pensioners party which is useless will be gone and Olmert will no longer be PM Prospects are improving!

"Can Lebanese members of parliament visit Israel?" What do you wish for in Israel? Democratic or Lebanese standards? Really curious, and not only in this case: One minute you feel oh so superior to your Arab neighbours; the next minute you ask why should WE behave better than them?

Kris, First use spell check for you cannot spell English to save your life. Second, Yes, it sounds like Austrian history and later Austria elected a former SS commando to be head of it's nation. Do you know the history of Achmed Tibi? Do you know he has met with Hizbollah and has publicly sided with them? Do you think that is unreasonable for Israel to ask it's MKS not to meet with those who are enemies of Israel. You speak from Ignorance but you are in land locked Austria so I will forgive you for the Alps must be blocking you from seeing the truth. 1) first criminalise opponents 2) denounce them publicly as anti-patriotical 3) clean every state and/or govermental institutions from opponents 4) collect them in ghettos 5) deport them 6) anihilate them.. Does this sound familiar? You propably read it in a history book.

will they expel Golda Meyer ? A lot of Israeli soldiers and spies operate in "enemy" countries as well. Barak should be expeled for commado operations.

Bishara convicted himself of being a traitor by publically calling upon Arab countries to intensify their conflict with the state of Israel. He referred to Hizbulla's success as 'the sweet taste of victory' thus associating himself with Hizbulla against the country (ie being a traitor)

break the law? Is it really "racist" to demand of all, Arab and Jew alike, to live by the law of the land in this democratic country that is ruled by law? Or, perhaps it is indeed a racist attitude on the part of some Arabs to demand that they receive special treatment just because they are Arabs!

I lived in South Africa long enough to be able to recognise racist attitudes on sight. You fit the bill. Which country and who are you talking about when you say 'their country'/'their taxes'? As far as I know all Israelis are Israelis and it is our country and you are distinguishing on a racial basis.

What does he mean by loyalty? Loyalty to Syria? They must be loyal to Israel, and to the Arab people in Israel... These people only want to destroy Israel, and the Knesset gives them a micro...It's very funny to see all these people here claiming that Israel is racist. Racist because it forbids people to destroy their country? Funny.

Your double standards are amazing. You will believe anything that the IDF claim, even when there is proof against them but Azmi Bishara must be guilty because he is an Arab.

They are the enemy within

Your taxes? Not their taxes eh? So they are only free to do what you tell them they can do? You forget it is their country. You lived in South Africa before, didn't you? It shows.

Tareq, I am not sure of my facts, but other than a token MP who sits in the Iranian gvt(I believe there is one), which other Jew sits as a MP in an Arab gvt. And Iranians might be Muslims, But the majority are not Arab.

What they would never exspect from their own country, or any other country for that mater. And this applies not only to this case, but to the most other cases.Only in this case it is too obvious, they a dead wrong.

Want to talk racism? No Israeli can visit Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia... Dare I go on? Anyone who collaborates with terrorists in enemy states to kill our civilians belongs in jail, period. You have a problem with it? Feel free to leave the country for good!

Just the real, unadulterated thing. Kris, of course, can't name one nation that ever allowed uncontrolled trips by citizens to enemy States. Kris can, of course, claim that's wrong only in the case of the single Jewish majority nation. As for Kris' list of 6 steps, of course it's familiar, it's why there are no longer Jews in most Arab countries. Of course, Israel has an 18% Arab minority that's stayed almost the exact same percentage as the nation's grown from 700,000 to 7,000,000 people. Gosh, such "annihilation"...

Don't you have anything to do but go around the net posting your anti-Israel tripe? Puting so much of your time into trying to delegitimize the Jewish state makes you look a little obsessed.

Israel lost her mind. In every normal countrie enemies of the countrie are prosecuted,in arab/moslem coutries they are hanged,in Israel they are in Knesset.What is wrong with our beloved country??? We realy have to look at ourself and reflect on the reality.

i.e only countries Israel has declared war on. Current bid has racist tendencies. US lawmakers also kept on visiting states considered enemy (belonging to the axis of evil) but that's a real democracy after all.

1) first criminalise opponents 2) denounce them publicly as anti-patriotical 3) clean every state and/or govermental institutions from opponents 4) collect them in ghettos 5) deport them 6) anihilate them.. Does this sound familiar? You propably read it in a history book.

"not one single Jew sits in their governments!" This is misinformation. You cannot simply make these statements without having a clue to the truth. Otherwise, people stop taking you seriously. So Avi, you said it... now PROVE IT !!!

To expand on ur point.I get the feelingfrom the actions of the Arab minorities in Israel that they learned a political trick, which it is time to put an end to--to make lots of noise in any dispute with Israeli authorities , to garner international notice and pressure, to which Israel submits in due time. I dont know the answer ,but probably expediting their departure should become law. Let them enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Can Lebanese members of parliament visit Israel?

Instead of visiting Syria & lebannon, Arab MKs needs to stay home and look after the interests of people who elected them. Moreover, I hope Israeli-Arab would wake up and stop voting for MKs like Tibi, who do harm more than help.

They will not turn into hostile enemy. Every Arab or Jew, who cooperate with an enemy state should be prosecuted according to the law. Serving in Knesset??? Are you nuts!!!!

If I were the editor of Haaretz, I would have headlined this story as follows. "Arab MK's show their anti Israeli colours by declaring that bid to bar trips to enemy states is racist".

This law is a good step in preventing the fifth column of Arab Israeli MKs from getting funds and orders from Israel's enemies. This way Israel will have less Arab traitors in the Knesset who may provide secret state information to Israel's enemies. I think any Israeli that visits an enemy state without permission should go to prison especially if they are friendly with Israel's enemies. All Israelis MK should be interested in the welfare of Israel and not actively involved in Israel's destruction and the Arab planned ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Israel. It is the Arab MKS that are the racist! How many Jewish representatives are there in Arab democracies? Oh wait, that is a contradiction of terms! Its about time!

Isn't that racist?

"Our taxes pay them: we decide where they can`t go" No, you don't. A member of parliament must not take orders from the government. Especially the minority (opposition) members of parliament must be independent of the government. That's what makes a system of 'checks and balances', if you ever heard of it. When government decrees decide where members of parliament travel or whom they talk to, you might as well dissolve the parliament and establish a dictatorship.

Jews did not die and scrounge to make Israel an Arab state. It necessarily reflects Jewish self interest .To that extent it is as racist as Spain is towards Mosllems . Spain would not allow its Moslems to deal with a Moslem state with which it is at war By accusing Israel instead the obvious chutzpa of the various Arab minorities in Israel , ur underlying assumption is that Jews have no rights to protect themselves.

Words of MK Ahmed Tibi: I am sure that a person who violates an unjustified law, or whose conscience is not completely clear, and is willing to pay the price and be imprisoned in order to raise public awareness regarding the injustice in the law, then that person is showing his respect to the most supreme values. No Mr. Tibi. Civilized people dont break laws in order to raise public awareness. Moreover Government officials need to set an example by working within the Law and not outside of it. This doesn't even touch upon the security considerations especially in the light of the incident with ex-MK Bashara who more than abused his governmental post in Israel. Mr. Tibi should be reminded that in Israel an Arab may be a part of the government but in Arab countries (where racism is #1) not one single Jew sits in their governments! Talk about racism

It's not racist because it's not based on ehnicity in any way. It's based on who is at war with the State or Israel or sponsoring terrorist activity against the state. Obviously war is bad, but it has its consequences. Arab Israelis should realize that the Arab world is at war with them. The Arab members who called this racist either do not understand the significance of being at war, or don't truly view these enemy countries as being at war with Israel and at war with them as Israelis. This law is not racist at all.

He admitted to selling information about troops and their disposition and their arms during war. These are the things that make them vulnerable to attack and slaughter. Capisce?

Nations are more than simply governments. The government is merely the way the members of the society are governed, preferably a system of self-governing. The culture, the society, is the meat of the nationm; the part that makes it more than simply lines of demarcation on a map. A society made up of opposing parts that are fundamentally different is as diseased as any schizophrenic in a mental ward. There is nothing "democratic" in allowing those in government cavort with those who wish to destroy the nation; that is a sign of cultural mental illness. This cannot be what the fathers of zionism had in mind and it doesn't even make sense. These people are traitors and enemies of the state and MK's MKs Zevulun Orlev and Esterina Tartman are correct.

Let's be realistic. Most Arab MKs are a dangerous 5th Column. Except they are smarter than Bishara who made it so obvious with his big mouth.

if it weren't sad, the proud defenders of everything Israel does who cite as their argument that the Arab states behave worse. So that makes it all right for Israel to behave like an Arab dictatorship? What low standards you have for your own country! And I enjoy even more the argument that "I don't regard the Palestinians as a race so anything done to them can't be racist".

"If we have to choose between loyalty to our people, or serving in the Knesset..." What?!? are Barakeh's subjects of loyalty living in Syria, Lebanon and Iran or in Israel?

#5 POP: So according to you only Jews / Israel are racists? Why did 0ne million Jews have to flee the Arab countries? Why are women, Christians, Bahais and gays persecuted in Islamic countries? The Arab / Islamic States are not at all racist? By the way at least have the guts to tell us where you live instead of hiding.

Allow them to go "one way." Like Beshara.

Do the Arab countries allow it? No. Then they should shutup. All they do is complain and complain.

"He was doubtless guilty of the deaths of Israeli soldiers because of his betrayal." When allegations are made against the IDF you always refuse to believe them without proof. So where is your proof for this libellous smear?

First: An "enemy State" is an anemy state, they shouldn't want to go there unless they are traitors or on an assigned mission, Second: Which one of those states allows Jews to own anything? They are the racists. These MKs are crazy!

How typical. Members of the Knesset introduce a piece of legislation and the choir chime in that this somehow makes Israel something less than a democracy. I was under the impression that allowing a variety of views and, yes, even the introduction of legislation based on these views is what democracy is all about. Or am I missing something, and only legislation with which Chris Linthwaite and "POP" agree may be introduced for a vote in a democracy.? In the meantime, these two jokers have passed judgement on legislation that they have not read and with whose content they are unfamiliar. More important, this legislation has only passed a first reading and has not even been to committee, let alone passed into law. I would say that is their interpretation of democracy that is unique! Just to point out, Israel currently only has two criteria for banning people from becoming MKs: if they have been convicted of a serious crime or if they run as a member of a political party that has been judged by the election committee to be racist. With respect to the second, only one party has ever been declared as such, and that was an ultra-right Jewish party.

have a point. If you ban them from traveling to states at war with Israel and prevent them in passing security related information which will help those staes to attack Isral and its defence forces you are "Racist". They demand the right to aid those like Syria, Hezbollah and Iran which openly declared their aims to Eradicate Israel from the Map Of ME, then you infringe on the MK's freedom of choice!!! You also limit their right to free expression!!!

If some Arab MKs think it is racist to forbid Knesset members to go to enemy countries, how do they define all the Arab countries that forbid any contact with Israelis or - Heaven forbid! - visits to the "Zionist entity"?

BAHAREIN,OMAN,MAROCCO,IRAQ,SYRIA,UNITED ARAB EMIRATES,SAUDI ARABIA,ALGERIA IF YOU DON'T LIKE ISRAEL AND HER LAWS!

I was amazed with your post # 26, I ask myself are you the same Lynn that used to post here? There is no comparison to do with the US, Israel and Syria still are at war.

ther transfer of all arab muslims to arab countries !

or as an unofficial Representative that the state is sending to feel out potential business deals or political deals. If you go of your own accord, your motives are circumspect whether you are jewish, muslim, christain or druze Israeli. You could pass on sensitive information, willingly or under duress, for ideology or cash, you could be held captive. Israel has a lot of connections via EU, US, Egypt and Jordan to feel out peace/business prospects, it doesn't need untamed Keneset Reps wandering around without permission. Other countries don't tolerate it, why should Israel Zehava Gal-On?

This was the MK who took his duties about visiting enemy states so seriously that he sold information about our forces and their location to Hizbullah last summer. He was doubtless guilty of the deaths of Israeli soldiers because of his betrayal. When the police wanted to investigate his behaviour he ran off, left the country and hasn't returned yet.

I don't recall Syria repeatedly claiming that it's objective was to destroy the USA and nor any hint that Ms Pelosi transferred sttate secrets to Syria. Her trip was obviously sanctioned by the US government.

If indeed all are equal under Israeli law, then why cant Israeli Arab citizens have family unification with their relatives that became refugees in 1948 or 67 while any Jew in the world has the right to become a citizen - including many non-jewish spouses as well!! Also, which law bans jews from citizenship in either palestine or jordan? Perhaps you are right, but please enlighten us with details! Regarding the temple mount/haram el sharif, so Muslims going to pray in the mosque automatically means your holiest site is desecrated? Dont get me worng, I dont deny the strong jewish links to the temple remnants, I am just not fully sure that it is really under the mosque. I seem to remember that Israeli archaeologists also dont know, and some think its in Siloan, no?

What a surprise? Jackal is an idiot? Do you even understand the issue?

Ahmed Tibi was acting as an advisor to Arafat while he was an MK in Israel. How stupin can you get.

Israel bashers are trying to use the words racism and apartheid wrongly in every occasion weather it is pertinent to the subject or not just to criticize Israel. I believe the international readers of Haaretz are well educated and well informed not to take these unfounded claims seriously. Israel unlike Saudi Arabia is a multicultural, multi ethnic, multi religious society where Israeli Arabs are free to worship Islam openly in their many mosques. Ask yourself how many Synagogues and Jews are in Saudi Arabia and you will find out who is the real racist and apartheid.

See posts # 6, 7 and 8 to understand the issue. It's no different in any democracy. Were British MPs allowed to travel to the USSR other than on official government-sanctioned mission?

This is exactly how it should be and is in any democracy.

If the Arab MK's go. They don't come back. Unless the visit is approved by the Israeli government the MK's that give comfort to enemy states do not deserve to be in the Knesset and should live in the "democratic" Arab states of their choosing.

I love people who shout "racism! racism!!" when race is not involved. this is strictly politics. if you want to see racism, ask arab countries about their laws regarding jews.

They are paid with the taxes from our hard work: they have no right to betray us by visiting our enemies. If they don't like it, they can leave the Knesset or leave the country. They're free to do what they like, but not in our names.

While USA categorizes Syria as a Terrorist state, there is no state of war between the two countries. USA has some diplomatic relations with Syria and Rice has been in touch with the Syrian authorities. Pelosi trip was approved. If Pelosi had visited Al Kaida leaders Bin Ladin or Zawahiri that would be a problem.

The Arab MK's do not represent the Israeli Arabs, they represent foreign leaders that seek to harm Israel and the Jewish people, like Assad and Hezboallah. To them, everything is racist- except for what they do. They should not serve in the Knesset if they can't abide by the laws. The Israeli Arabs must stand up and elect those who will assert their rights as loyal Israeli Citizens. Israeli Arabs cannot have it both ways. Otherwise, Israeli Jews should wake up and see the writing on the wall.

Please choose your people instead of the Knesset....we dont want fifth columnists that travel to enemy states....what do you think they are discussing with them, how to better trade with Israel? No, how they can help them destroy us....if you are in the government, and you travel to our sworn enemies with out explcit permission, you should not be let back in the Country, or at the very least, not be allowed to serve as MK.....stand strong Israel...and lets get a new leader while you`re at it.....

There is nothing racist about this proposed legislation.It is just stupid and futile.The response from the Arab MK,s is also stupid as they are acting in unison, once again sowing the seeds of suspicion that they might not be serving the interests of Israel in a correct fashion.They should all protest the constant war mongering from Iran.They should protest the stupid statements coming from Damascus.They should protest the agression from Gaza and Hezbollah.The silence on those matters from our Arab MK,s is positively deafening !

What "RACE" are you people talking about???? The Syrian Race? We Israelis are the same "Race" as the Syrians or the Jordanians or anyone else in this region for that matter. You CAN call this law a STUPID LAW however. Lord knows there are plenty of STUPID MK's (some of whom may even be racists) but Israel IS NOT a Racist country.

it is big difference, you have embassy there, we have not.

It makes me sick to hear people calling Israel racist. Israel has so many ethnic groups it would make some EU countries seem racist. They are all equal under the law. However, Jordan Palestine has a law banning Jews from citizenship. Thats racist. Please get your facts right. Individuals can do what they want, but Israel as a country is about as free as possible. Worst, if anything is bans Jews from the Temple Mount now, our holy of holies. Reverse descrimination. how can Israel allow Muslims to desecrate our holiest site on a daily basis? Ban Muslims from the Temple Mt. In fact ban everyone from it. End the desecration.

Some of these Arabs MKs make me sick. To visit an enemy country against the government is to be a traitor and they should be treated accordingly. There is NOTHING racist about that. IF a Jew, Arab, or whomever does it, its wrong.

PLEASE KEEP GOING WITH THIS KIND OF LAWS! EVENTUALLY THE ARAB MK'S CAN ALSO WORK IN SYRIA AND IRAN KENESSET.

How many attacks has Syria made against the US? Is it a crime for a Syrian to visit the US? Does Syria have a DECLARED state of war with the US? Answer those and maybe you might begin to understand the difference. What a moron.

Hello, I am a Finn who is interested in the Jewish people. I just read a text about the Six-Day War in 1967 and the events before it. Especially the Egyptian dictator Gamal Abdel Nasser expressed very racist views of Jews indicating that all the Jews of Israel must be exterminated. Syrians, Iraqis, Saudis etc. shared Nasser's views. Fortunately the IDF did a good job and beat the armies that tried to perform another holocaust. Today, there are a lot of indications that Arabs are a racist lot.

Pelosi and a few others went to Syria. She is still the Speaker of the House. No one fired her. And, Syria is clearly no friend of the US.

There's nothing wrong with saying that the central government has the power to control policy regarding war and peace, and specifically as relates to negotiating with countries who are in a declared war with us. Whether you agree or not, it's a legally legitimate policy. Calling everything Israel does "racist" all the time has had the effect of emptying the word of its meaning and force. When true racism happens here (and it certainly does) who will believe it, when the accusation is used so frequently and inaccurately?

sadly you're post is only meaningful to you .. perhaps a deep breath and then try again? Mike

"Our people"...as far as I know, Israeli Arabs are still Israelis...so, if they don't consider Israelis their people, then they have no business in Israel. They talk so much about integration and racial justice, but then choose visits to leaders who want Israel's destruction over being part of the political process. Pure and disgusting hipocrisy

DURING LEBANON WAR!AND HES NOT THE ONLY ONE!WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!THE REST OF THEM WILL BE PUNISHED VERY SOON!!!!I RECOMMEND RUNNING AWAY FROM ISRAEL LIKE BISHARA BEFORE WE FIND OUT WHO YOU ARE!THERE WILL BE NO SAFETY FOR TRAITORS AMONG US!ARAB OR NOT!!

Israeli Arabs are putting themselves in an ugly position. Any citizen, Jewish, Muslim, or Chritian, that decides to visit an enemy territory for the porpuse of smooching with them should not be allowed to return. Keep them out. This people are going nuts.

Collaborating with an enemy at any time let alone at times of war means the death penalty in many countries that have it and long term prison sentences in probably ALL others. It is high time that Israel enacted a law like this! Who wouldn't approve of the law! Only potential collaborators of course! Who else would object!?

What country lets its citizens visit enemy states? Pretty silly of Israel to let these Arab "citizens" get away with it. Can Saudis visit Israel? How about Syrians? Get real!

Governments that condone liars like Tartman, should not be trusted. Perhaps a better plan for Israel is to expel parties like Beitenu from the government.

Very simple, let the genocidal maniacs live with their friends.

There is no racism in the past 50 years as organized and accepted as that of General Arab Muslims and their countries, against Jews and the State of Israel. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Can you imagine if an elected US american muslim rep. went to Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, to collaborate with US enemies at the expense of US security and to share confidential material? And then the rep. complains that this is racism? US media would have a field day with the clown.

I do not know any democracy that allows its citizens to consort with an enemy state. To characterise that as racism is absurd but it is the usual kind of unsubstantiated and unjustified rhetoric employed by anti-semites

Don't like it? Leave

Those who accuse Israel of racism are most likely guilty of holding double standards. Would the US or France (etc.) allow elected members to go to countries supporting their destruction, in order to provide security information and aid and abet in the destruction. The citizens would be outraged, and properly so, so why should Israel not also clamp down on those elected members whose paycheques they sign who are guilty of treason and the incitement of violence.

You can't eat the pie and have the pie at the same time. You are an Israeli (arb or Jew) or you are not an Israeli. As a MK you are a loyal citizen of Israel, what hell you are doing with the ennemy of Israel. In an other democratic country you will be trwn out of the parliment.

Any lebanese talking to an Israeli is subject to being tossed in jail in lebanon. No Israeli or person with their passport stamped at Ben-Gurion airport is allowed into lebanon, syria or a host of arab countries. The arabist apologists are ever-so-silent about this shhhaaaa...it's only normal, there's no moral outrage to display. Yet sanctioned TREASON is a claimed "right" Barakeh could go choke in syria or any other arab country, we don't need slime like him.

That's the only conclusion that can be drawn from Tibi's words.

To serve in the knesset you should be made to make a pledge of allegiance to the state. If you are loyal to the state you would not visit enemy states unless on official (sanctioned) government business. If you are not then you are a traitor. It is that simple.

Not surprised at all. Israel has always had racist laws.

The same MK who was caught lying about her academic qualifications? What she doing still in the Knesset? If she lied about that did she lie about having Jewish grandparents?

Don't make me laugh.

In what way can that ever be considered racist? These traitors scream racism all the time and they are the racists.

Let the arab MK's visit enemy states, Just don't let them back in to Israel when they're ready to return and then send their families after them. one way to get rid of trouble makers.