ADL: Katsav should address U.S. Reform leader Yoffie as 'rabbi'

I said it already, and I agree that Katzav should go along with the rabbi title, even if he knows that when Reform makes someone a "rabbi", it's pretty meaningless in terms of Judaism. I question the Jewish unity thing, however in this last post. I'd like us to be united, of course. But, when one "offshoot" stream changes so many rules and acts against our people, why be unified? Reform goes by patrilineal descent, performs interfaith weddings and gay weddings and commitment ceremonies, denies the need for kashrus and being shomer Shabbos, desecrates the liturgy, and does so many other things that defy traditional Judaism. If anyone is creating disunity it is them. Christianity also denies the need to follow Torah, but they aren't Jews and the Torah was not written for them. They at least tend to follow the seven Noachide laws as they should. Many Reform aren't even really Jewish. So, where's the need for unity?

Unity between jews in Israel and abroad is very important. We can have different opinions about everything ....but we must respect each others view. If the jews between themselves are not united, helping each other, respect each other faith no matter how religious or following all the mitsvot....We have ENOUGH ennemies with other religions , especially our neighbours who would be delighted to see us fight between ourselves. At that stage, Katsav should have private lessons to learn how to behave with jews abroad and other religions.

To paraphrase Dr. Richard Menkes, chair of Judaic Studies at the University of British Columbia (Canada), and a thoroughly secular individual himself, throughout history there have always been horizontal offshoots from normative Orthadox Judaism, but after a brief interval these have always disappeared. Dr. Menkes continued to say that the only group to survive laterally throughout our religion's history were the Orthadox...the other groups simply faded away. The meaning of the word Rabbi is teacher, specifically of Torah and other Sacred Writings. It is an oxymoron to ascribe that title to an individual whose teachings deny the validity of those writings. As Dr. Menkes might have concluded from his statement above, it could well be irrelevant whether or not we call Yoffie a "Rabbi", as his movement is simply the latest horizontal offshoot doomed to extinction. However, the tragedy for our people is the many Jews who will also be washed away in the ebbtide.

President Katsav`s refusal to use the title Rabbi was just plain rudeness. The casual hurling of insults at people`s religious beliefs is bigotry. Serious Jews should know better. We should begin behaving like a dignified cultured civilization not like the cast of a crumby soap opera

Generalization is a sin. Some Orthodox and some Reform leaders and their followers are good natured people while many others less. Moderation in the sense of the Enlightenment is a good path. The sharp rejection of a Reform rabbi is a mistake. Rabbis are coming in all shapes and knowledge. Some are openminded, others less. Even Christianity has had its problens. The concept of an invisible G-d and his son was offered to the Athenians by Paul and he was rejected. After the Enlightenment, Spinoza, and Kant - the supernatural G-d is very out of synch.

I once had a next-door neighbor who was a Reform clergyman and a very nice person. He used to wave "Shabbat Shalom!" to me from the window of his car as I walked to the synagogue, and he was driving to his congregation. I never once called him "rabbi," considering that to be offensive to real rabbis, and I felt the title "Doctor" (he was a Doctor of Divinity) would be contrived, and possibly offensive, so I always called him by his first name. Katsav was right.

Before the Sabbatical Year (Shemittah), people complained, "but what will we eat?" The Torah's response is a clear "I will command My blessing in the sixth year, and the land will produce for three years." This HAPPENED. What HUMAN leader in his right mind would ever dream of making such a promise, knowing that the first time it did not happen he'd be torn to pieces by an angry hungry mob?!! No, Torah (and the Jewish Law contained in it and the "lecture" of the Oral Law to which the Written Law is the "notes") is not the work of humans, one or many, but that of our Creator Who continues to daily run the Universe He created.

Hi Gretch, I don't feel superior. Not at all. I grew up in a Reform Shul. But I know what real Judaism is and driving on and violating the Sabbath, eating non-kosher food, having an organist playing during Sabbath prayers with a choir are completely forbidden in Judaism. This is mimicking Gentile culture. I was at a Bar Mitzvah reception once at a Reform Shul that served real Shrimp Cocktail! That's just the way it is. I hope that Reform Judaism continues to move back towards true Jewish tradition and law. After all, Reform Judaism in the 1880's used to have "Sabbath" prayers on Sundays in order to be "more like the Gentiles". Look into that if you didn't know.

How ridiculous can your President get? Life is all about changes and adaptions. Not even our DNA duplicates an exact copy of us. Mutations are always occuring in the structure and make up. Indeed, who can look at a tree and not see it is always extending itslf with new branches and more fruit. So Mr. President why not simply get with it and embrace growth and reform and see it too as extending Judaism in the world! Thank you, Dutch

"...has rejected halacha which is the lifeblood of Judaism." This is a rabbinic lie. The lifeblood of Am Israel is the written Torah with the prophets and writings. Any other book like Talmud, Zohan, Hew Testament, Quran or the Book of Mormon are human creations and must be rejected as such.

Judaism isn't orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is part of Judaism as much as the Reform movement. A Rabbi is a Rabbi regardless of the Branch of Judaism. Katsav should show his respect for Judaism and Jewish values, not only Orthodox values. Katsav is creating a division in the house of Israel, Shame on Him!!!!!

Hi, It's clear that you feel superior to Reform Jews. But do you have any idea how deeply the contempt most Orthodox feel for you? You can cry "Halacha" and "Kosher" in their face until Moshiach returns but the Orthodox don't respect your beliefs, period! Sorry.

You ought to reread your post. Fairly dripping with Bostonian elitism. "Some slug from an unknown junior college," eh? Tell me, were you born to be ignorant or did they drill ignorance into you at Harvard or MIT?

My, aren't we hot stuff. I guess your laughing and your cringing at these foolish, deluded reform Jews make you a truly superior being,

Some time back there was a fellow called Jesus that wandered around Israel for a while. He was called Rabbi by those who knew him. I wonder how Katsav feels about that?

To Daniel of Chicago Orthodox young men are Avrechim, or arn't they? Whay Chutzpa allowed them to take the title that Pharoh gave to Yosef as a Prince of Egypt? And what about the bigger chutzpa that the orthodox Rabbis falsified the commands in the name of God, when they said "Ahser Kidshanu Bemitsvotav vatzivanu" when they asked 'Judaism' to accept that God asked the Jews to light Honuka candels, or read the Megila. Is it less chutzpa to falsify God's name than to be a reform Rabbi? "Mum shebach al tomar lechavrech" don't point out chutzpa to others when you use it in a much more arrogant way

Just as a doctor lawyer professor c.p.a doesn't earn the title without being knowledgeable and qualified.The title Rabbi isn't fitting unless the person has the expertise in Jewish law. Rav or Rabbi is conferred upon an individual that demonstrated before Scholarly law experts the requisite knowledge and ability to render decisions.I am not opposed to Reform rabbi since that would be the equivalent of UNQUALIFIED.

If someone introduces himself as "King Bananahead," then that is what you call him.

I am not authodox in daily life . But I attend an authodox shule headed by a very pious rabbi. when a reform Rabbi keeps the laws of kashrute as our custom teaches and when he keeps the shabbat properly as mainstream authodox Rabbonim do, that man will deserve the title RABBI. Until then, he's just another Jew.

When will the orthodox finally admit we need eachother. They are allowed to sit and pray while other Jews give their lives for them. I am not complainging about that. G-d made us all, He gave us minds to think with. We have a chice Hitler didnt care if we were orthodox, conservative , reformed. WE all marched into the ovens together. WE NEED EACH OTHER WAKE UP

Aloha Your Eminence. Thank you for explaining that "Reb" is an honorific, in Yiddish, much the same as Mr. is in English. Please be patient with us American's. We don't always have the complete picture. We really do care. As you may know, our lives are relatively sheltered. Thank you Johnny for the Wein pun. These chat rooms get so uptight. A little appropriate humor is always fun. Any relation to the talented Jerry Weintraub film producer?

Actually, I have done my fair share of "spiritual travel" within the Jewish community, away from the Conservative movement. I have gone to a number of shuls--Orthodox, Chabad--and have had my experiences with Orthodox rabbis and their teachings. Talk about convoluted logic, and bigotry, and the hatred starts right at the door of loving one's fellow Jew. Yes, there are Jews turning towards Orthodoxy, but there are even more who aren't. And for them, the confines and parochialism of Orthodoxy will never do. By the way, honey attracts more flies than the vinegar of bigotry; maybe if the Orthodox based their interactions with other Jews on this premise, they might ultimately be even more successful. Funny, but most Israelis I've met hate the Orthodox, and their experiences with the oppressive Orthodox rabbis in Israel have made them hate all religion, period.

"Better to be silent than to open your mouth and demonstrate your ignorance" Thank you for demonstrating the truth of this statement. Too bad you were unable to understand my post and had to write nonsense instead. The question is what title is appropriate for the leader of the largest single group of Jews and who should make that determination.

As it happens given the high divorce rate in America, It is a halachic advantage not to be really married. No aguna and Get problems, no worry about the status of the kids. But the real problems start with all the intermarriages that Yoffe and friends carry out, perform and sponsor. The biggest sponsor of intermarriage in the states happens to be the same Reform movement that wants to claim that its clergy are Rabbis. Who ever heard of Real Rabbis officiating at intermarriages?

Bitter pill you ought to read the label on pills before you hand them out. The old Zionist Joke about "assimilation is simply curing a headache by commiting Suicide" applies equally to your bitter pill. It smells of bitter almonds and kills Judaism on contact.

The golem jumps to confusions. Orthodox Rabbis do not "assume " anything. They undergo a rigorous training to analyse situations in the light of fixed texts. They are trained to use analytic tools that work and can be applied to any field of knowledge. Any Orthodox Jew has the oportunity to question all he believes in, and believe me most of us do. That makes our belief system work and our beliefs the result of logic , not presumption. As to whom you claim to have learnt from, it is obvious that the product reveals the teachers for just what we said they are: People keeping Jews away from Real Jewish Knowledge. By selling you fake Judaism as if it were the real thing, they have kept you both ignorant and intolerant of those who actually might just know something.

Strange how your opinion is not in touch with reality. Thousands of secular Israelis have been attracted back to Judaism By orthodox and chareidi Rabbis. Tens of thousands of North American Jews are assimilating and disapearing as Jews thanks to MR yoffe and his ignorant friends. I would rather be accused of not tolerating fraud than of trying to sell a broken uselessCar to a fellow Jew. We who call you intolerant notice that you and a few others posting here obviously have never spoken to ANY Orthodox Rabbi who spoke your language. So much for shunning those you disagree with.

Strange how your opinion is not in touch with reality. Thousands of secular Israelis have been attracted back to Judaism By orthodox and chareidi Rabbis. Tens of thousands of North American Jews are assimilating and disapearing as Jews thanks to MR yoffe and his ignorant friends. I would rather be accused of not tolerating fraud than of trying to sell a broken uselessCar to a fellow Jew. We who call you intolerant notice that you and a few others posting here obviously have never spoken to ANY Orthodox Rabbi who spoke your language. So much for shunning those you disagree with.

Thanks Moshino for putting your views in perspective. Strange how familiar your arguments are to anyone who ever listened to why Jew- haters claim they hate us. I would rather be called a "smelly Jew(ess)" than be counted among those who hate Jews any day

Strange how those who hate, and cannot tolerate anyone who is more commited to Judaism than themselves tend to use the words "intolerant" "bigoted" and "Hatred" an awful lot. The Ancient Rabbis who set the standards for whom gets called a Rabbi used to say that often the one who accuses others is suffering from that issue. Makes one wonder about the tolerance and Love for other Jews of those who wish to label Fake Jews as The real thing, Fake rabbis as genuine but will not accept those who are commited to real authentic Jewish scholarship

whoever posted the absurdity that jews for another religion would ever be accepted as part of the Jewish people is fudging the issue. Fakes and frauds are NOT acceptable in modern, polite society. Fake degrees may or may not be a local industry, but no- one sane accepts their validity. Even the old jewish Marxists accepted somethings as beyond the pale. Seeems those who quote them are just another anachronism

A golem cannot speak. whoever posted using this name is a good example why. The argument is whether Reform rabbis are qualified, not over whether or not any individual is in fact Jewish. Better to be silent than to open your mouth and demonstrate your ignorance, thanks to those who claim to "teach reform Jews"

|Try calling yourself a lawyer when the law association claim you are an unqualified fraud. Try forcing yourself into an operating theatre without credentials. Then tell us that any graduate of a "Rabbinic" school whose teachers cannot qualify to be a Rabbi here in Israel,for sheer lack of knowledge, Deserve any title they claim. The only title they have earned is "Irelevant"

evenj the ayatolahs of iran are more modern than the fools who still believe in "higher biblical critisism". I suggest that Mr Yonatan learn a little about Jewish texts before he spouts his eighteenth cencurry theories so long disproved. As to its relevance to this debate, that might be questionable, but then it was the original basis for the Reform denominations attempt to rewrite Judaism. The result was all too obvious. their children voted to not be Jewish in any shape or form.

This was obviously directed at my post "Now what`s the problem again with Reform Judaism, gay weddings and new age? Let`s hear it from a yeshivanik, or an orthodoxnik who completely ignore compassion, ahavat Am Israel (Love for Jewish nation) and are more worried about judging than engaging in constructive dialogues." This is the same old tired and boring left wing secular justification for any deviant behavior or total re-interpretation of religion. We need to have "compassion", and avoid "judging". With this attitude anything is okay, and nothing has any intrinsic meaning because someone can come along and change the meaning and no-one can object. Sorry, Judaism is Judaism, and has been since Sinai, admittedly subject to new halachas as technology has changed, but not because people have changed, because they really don't.

It is sad for me to read these many unreasonable TalkBacks. Before the Enlightenment the New Testament was the Torah of the Christian Europe, and the Jews had a tough time. Enligtenment gave the Jewish people a second chance on life. The Enlightenment can be a new Torah for all humanity. Even the Muslim people would gain from this change. Pres Katzav - Please Enligten yourself.

President Katsav is right. Those who want to be recognized as Rabbis must first recongnize authority of the Torah and Halacha. You can't have it both- not to follow entire Torah and complain that others don't view as a Rabbi.

I appreciate your open mindedness, Johnny. But let me clarify to you what the East European custom (orthodox) was. When a simple (non rabbi) person was called up, they would call him "Moreinu Reb X" (our teacher Reb X). He could have been a butcher, but they would use that honorific. If a rabbi would be called up, they would refer to him as "Moreinu v'Rabeinu, HaRav Rabbi X" (our teacher and rabbi, the rav rabbi X). Special honor was given to rabbis in any case. It is just that the simple crowd also got something. Rabbi Yoffie should be honored at the standard he is accustomed to.

You make a lot of assumptions on very flimsy evidence. You assume that our liberal leaders somehow keep us from learning. Not in my experience. You assume that the Orthodox have the correct understanding of Torah, the Mitsvot, Tradition the Sages and everything else. You assume that all we have to do is be exposed to an Orthodox Rabbi and we will be convinced that you are right. My three years of study in an Orthodox Yeshiva demonstrated poor thinking, racism, sexism, intolerance and spiritual emptiness. But I would never generalize as you have done. For me the paths to learning and observing have come from HUC and the University of Judaism, as well as wandering scholars, not from the Yeshiva world. Look, every Jew, every ben Adam, has his or her own unique path to Torah and to Ha-Shem. Since Rabbi Yoffi represents that path for many, he is entitled to be called Rabbi, even if his path is not yours.

So when Rabbi Eric Yoffee is called up to the Torah for an alyiah as "Reb Eric", the caller can add a "B" to Reb, and thus he becomes "Rebbe Eric." That is Yiddish for "rabbi", and that will be good enough for me.

In your post, you spell my surname as "Weinrab". The article in HAARETZ mentions HaRav Tzvi Hersch "Weinreb." The correct spelling of my surname is "Weintraub." Unfortunately, no relation, but Jewish people must consume a lot of wine for us to have surnames that start with "Wein."

I wasn't "resorting to name calling," I was speaking a simple truth. It is when the intolerance of the Orthodox who try to run everything and shun other Jews, that Jews get turned off of Judaism. Plain and simple. And approving of the decision of Katsav to deny the rabbinical position of Rabbi Yoffie is tantamount to the same, in my book. We can agree to disagree, but when it comes to the consequences to the Jewish community--i.e. more infighting and more fractionalism--then we all lose. If that's what you want, then so be it.

I don't go around saying that orthodox Jews who hop on the bus with me stink like hell under those heavy black clothes or heavy black coats without taking regular showers while in yeshiva all day long. Although they do offend my sensitive nostrils, I respect them for their ideals and their faith. Now what's the problem again with Reform Judaism, gay weddings and new age? Let's hear it from a yeshivanik, or an orthodoxnik who completely ignore compassion, ahavat Am Israel (Love for Jewish nation) and are more worried about judging than engaging in constructive dialogues. Help us Boreh Ha-Olam. Don't let us kill ourselves. And they say they are ready for the Temple... I see...

Is there a single Israeli who lacks to acknowledge Mr. Katsav as President? Nope Just as not a single Israeli I know lacks to acknowledge his lack of skills, and balls to be where he is. He`s done. Do we really need to talk about him? Now, rabbi, as far as my Hebrew is concerned is a word for a teacher, a leader. And RABBI Yoffie is a teacher and a leader of a large portion of Jews no matter what the Orthodox movement may have to say about it. Ultimately the Judge is Boreh Ha-Olam and not an orthodox Jew or an orthodoxnik, or a presidentnik. when will we learn to resolve our disagreements by talking rather than impulsive actions and reactions? But that`s a question for the NEXT president. And may he be wise!

Perhaps in Israel they can't perform weddings, but I would suspect most of the marriages here in the US are performed by Reform and Conservative rabbis (which is why I asked)

Is that what you do when you run out of rational arguments? Start the name calling? I can tolerate reform Jews and leaders, but I will not compromise something that my Torah asks me to keep intact. G-d did not tolerate giving the Torah to a nation that would only accept 612 out of the 613 commandments. That is not legitimate Judaism. The intolerant ones are the reform and conservative leaders who keep their congregants ignorant of Jewish scholarship and stop them from exploring the traditional transmission of Judaism. As a matter of fact, Jews are inspired when given the proper opportunity to hear what an "intolerant" orthodox Rabbi has to say about the true meaning of Judaism.

right on!

Intolerant religious Jews only turn other Jews off from Judaism, period. If you want to make the infighting and hatred conrinue, then you're doing an excellent job.

To be honest, I am not as much bothered by calling Reform clergy "rabbi" as by referring to Reform as "Judaism", which it really isn't. It is really confusing to the outside world when a Reform rabbi's opinion, or Yoffee's opinion, is solicited on some issue for the "Jewish" point of view, like gay marriage, for instance, which they love. Then it makes the rest of us Jews, to those outside the Jewish community, look like some New Age nut cases by association. And gentiles convert through Reform and think they have really adopted a Jewish lifestyle, which they haven't. This is the really sad part. They should take a different name entirely, like "new-age-ism", or something.

"By your reasoning, Jews for Jesus could begin giving people the title Rabbi and we should all them as Rabbis." - David You are complicating the issue by introducing new elements. The Jews for Jesus want the Jewish community to recognize them as Jews. The Jewish community refuses. Suppose they address each other as Reb Yid; should Jews refer to them this way? I don't think so, because it is meant to achieve the recognition they are seeking. If some African tribe would call its chief "rabbi", without any sense that this is related to Jewish practice, I will have no problem with calling the chief "rabbi". (I will be holding back a big smile, though.) The Israeli president should not get involved in inter-denominational disputes. His job requires quiet the opposite. P.S. If, years from now, the Jews for Jesus are accepted as a Jewish denomination, I would call their leader by whatever term they use.

Seems like a pretty simple question to me. It is a slap in the face not to call a reform Rabbi "Rabbi" and I can't see the counter-argument. Our leaders shake hands with PA murderers, l'havdil elef paamin (a thousand fold worse). Certainly a minimal sign of recognition for better relations is justified.

Why "should we", accept them before they are within the guidelines of halacha? I don't know which reform you refer to. They do not observe halcha. period. It is a great thing that they are doing more, but it hardly makes them eligible of the hard earned term Rabbi. A Rabbi is one who embodies and believes in Halacha. Someone who does not cannot be termed as such. We are so careful to make sure that a doctor is fully licensed and trained. If he isn't then he is not a doctor. period. The fact that he makes attempts to resemble a real doctor does not a doctor make.

Based on the way that most of them behave, the title "rabbi" carries very little honor. So who cares who is or is not called rabbi.

"Reb" is an honorific, in Yiddish, much the same as Mr. is in English.

By your reasoning, Jews for Jesus could begin giving people the title Rabbi and we should all them as Rabbis.

The whole debate who is a Rabbi and who is not, reminds of one of my old aunt, who used to say: Yiches ligt on the mist! Loose translation = Celebrities are garbage!

I would like to be addressed as "Your Eminence". does that mean i am entitled to it?

"As a Reform Jew I do not need one more reason to think of Israel as a country I may visit but which will never respect who I am." As a Conservative Jew and graduate of a Reform graduate school, I can only commiserate. Our congregation has gone through various struggles with the Orthodox establishment in this town, and has even been vandalized, more than once, and even on Yom Kippur Night. That's the Orthopox for you.

In my less lucid moments, after some particularly annoying matter of religious coercion enrages me, I tend to use the words "Orthopox" for "Orthodox" and "rabbit" for "rabbi", and sometimes the Talkback censor lets these words slip through. A Freudian slip, I imagine.

"If the clergymen referred to aren`t rabbis, doesn`t it follow that marriages they perform are invalid, and the children of those marriages illegitimate? Just asking." They aren't allowed to perform weddings, conversions, or anything else regarding personal status. Moreover, the definition of "illegitimate child" is different in Judaism from that in Christianity. The child of an unmarried woman, whether to a married or unmarried man, is legitimate. The child of a married woman to any man is a mamzer - he cannot marry any Jewish woman, except a convert. Primitive, but that's the way fundamentalist Judaism works.

Over what does "President" Katsav preside? Does he hold some sort of Presidential smicha or degree? Mr Katsav skates on very thin water when he takes it upon himself to decide who is and who isn't a Rabbi. As a Reform Jew I do not need one more reason to think of Israel as a country I may visit but which will never respect who I am.

If the clergymen referred to aren't rabbis, doesn't it follow that marriages they perform are invalid, and the children of those marriages illegitimate? Just asking.

"Doesn`t the term "Reb" refer to "Rabbi?" To me, it would translate as a learned, righteous man. In that sense, aren`t we all "rabbis"?" - J. Weintraub Johnny, the honorific "Reb", although derived from the word "rabbi", does not mean anything like that. It was used as "Mr." in the traditional European world. They also used to call people for an Aliya with "Moreinu Reb X..", where the word "Moreinu" means "our teacher". It was used indiscriminately, and was even a subject of jokes. Nowadays, to be a "rabbi", you need to be ordained and have some formal certificate from some religious academy. In Talmudic times, when there was also "semikha" (laying on of hands), those ordained with semikha were called "rabbi". Those ordained but without semikha were called "rav". The Babylonian Talmud is full of ravs because there was no semikha outside of Eretz Israel.

I have to admit that as a Conservative Jew, I have not felt comfortable in many classical Reform temples for the very reason you noted in your post. It is true that when Reform began, it was a marriage of Enlightenment ideals with a genuine desire of Jews to fit in with the mainstream society. Hence, the use of "reverend" and "doctor," questioning the wearing of kippot in shul, holding services on Sundays and even challenging circumcision and the use of Hebrew. I could go on. Reform began as a means of Jews to wipe out their Jewishness in order to beg acceptance from non-Jews. Still, I admire how Reform Jews spearhead progressive causes and also see that the Reform movement is changing. It is incorporating more and more of Halakha and Judaism, in general. It is becoming more "Jewishly minded." I think that we should welcome that return by showing their leaders respect. It's to the benefit of the Jewish community overall.

A Rabbi is an individual who has been ordained to preserve and transmit Halacha. He doesn't fit the bill. "Rabbi" Schindler long ago declared that the reform movement has rejected halacha which is the lifeblood of Judaism. Jews don't define Judaism, Judaism defines Judaism. When the reform movement began, they used to call their leaders reverend or doctor. Why not do that? Don't invent a new meaning for something and then demand that others accept it? That is chutzpah! That is the attitude of these people. You have to accept me. Nonsense!

On the Yartzheit plaques in Texas synagogues, the name in Hebrew of the deceased will reflect something like "Reb Moshe ben Reb Menachem Mendel." Doesn't the term "Reb" refer to "Rabbi?" To me, it would translate as a learned, righteous man. In that sense, aren't we all "rabbis"?

Israel is religiously dominated by the Orthodox. This is unfortunate since this group is the least able to cope with modernity in a "timely" fashion. (It can take them centuries to change a ruling.) Of course the President should address Rabbi Yoffie with his professional title. Let this be a lesson to all in the need for religious diversity and open-mindedness. It should help Pres. Katsav to know that today's title "rabbi" is essentially an honorific which does not endow the bearer with any particular privileges. Every religious function that a rabbi can perform can also be done by an untitled individual who knows how to do it. In mishnaic and Talmudic times (in Eretz Israel), semikha (laying on of hands) was believed to have come down uninterruptedly all the way from Our Rabbi Moses. Semikha entitled the ordained to issue rulings which unordained people could not do. This institution is gone. The title "rabbi" can be used by any graduate of any rabbinic academy of any type.

among most of the posters to this Talkback. Comparison to fundamentalist Islam is so obvious so as not to require further evidence.

I have to admit that it makes me cringe to call a Reform rabbi by the title "Rabbi", especially a woman "rabbi", but, actually that is the title he or she has been given in some wierd formal way. As #28 says, it means "my teacher", and if the Reform consider what Yoffee teaches worth learning, then he is a "rabbi". We who really respect learned rabbis are used to thinking of the term as special, but President Katzav should go along with the title for Yoffee, especially as a ceremonial issue. I mean, we would call a Nobel laureate from Princeton "Professor", and some slug from an unknown junior college with no credentials "Professor", if the college gives him that title, even though we don't put him in the same category. As far as semicha goes, I learn from many "rabbis" who are learned but do not actually have semicha, and that doesn't bother me, because they are learned and have the right (in my eyes) perspective on what Judaism is.

Does the Israeeli president demand to see school transcripts before using the honorarium "Doctor"? Does he exclude graduates of some universities ?

The term "rabbi" means "my teacher" a reform clergyman cannot be a teacher to an orthodox person - quite simple! Reform denies "authentic judaism"

"Judaism as defined by Jewish Law (and nothing else!) is nothing so mundane or "trendy" as a "lifestyle," Rather it is a way of life that has kept our People alive throughout the ages " Kindly demonstrate that the halakhah has existed throughout the ages. If you wish, I can demonstrate that the Torah was not written by Moses but by many people at much later periods, and that the halakhah began to develop only in Late Second Temple times. The halakhah was developed by human beings, flesh and blood, according to the circumstances of the times, and can be changed - or discarded. Rabbis are, and always have been, rabbis by their own definition. Therefore, Reform and Conservative rabbis can define themselves as rabbis, by their own lights. They don't need any Orthodox rabbi to tell them whether they are or aren't. And they certainly don't need President Katzav to tell them they are rabbis. If he were a mentsxh, he would address them as rabbis.

"Once he gets his smicha from an orthodox, established institution or the Israeli Rabbinut, the president should call him "rabbi", until then, the president is 100% correct in NOT calling him "rabbi"." If I understand you correctly, then none of the Orthodox rabbis outside of Israel, including those ordained by the Lakewood Yeshiva, Yeshivas Torah va'Daas, Yeshivas Tomchei T'mimim (the Lubavitchers in Crown Heights, and the Satmars in Williamsburg are rabbis. Right?

President Katzav does not reject Dr. Yoffees Jewishness, since Yoffee has a Jewish mother. President Katzav does not address him as President Yoffee, nor Prime Minister Yoffe, nor "Rabbi" Yoffee, since those titles would be misleading. There is no such thing as reform "judaism" anymore than "messianic (jews for a mazer) judaism, nor athiestic judaism, even though some, or many of their practitioners are jews. Unfortunately, in america, where the majority of the reform movement used to be reform "jews", now their majority are reform NON-JEWS, due to phony conversion, "patrellinear" descent (i.e. not having a jewish mother) etc.

President Katsav is not a private individual, and therfore his personnel opinion of whether Yoffe shoud be addressed as ''Rabbi"" is irrelevant, he is not the reprsentative of the Orthodox Israeli Rabbinate, but of the state. Adressing Yoffe as Rabbi is a pure matter of courtesy, and respect. I am sorry to say that as an observant Jew there are a number of Rabbis whom I might hesitate to call ''Rabbis'' based on their opinions or behavior, namely on advising Soldiers when and when not executing orders,thus making an abuse of their functions while being paid by the State. Henry Weil Jerusalem

Numbers have never impressed me. It is about time someone stood up to people who wish to make nothing of our religion. There are no "Streams or Branches of Judaism. A Jew is Jew. We all know what are responsibilities are to full our commitment to the Almighty. There is NO pick & choose, or How "I" feel way to observance. Man made or Women made ways to observe Judaism is such a mockery. Why do you people even bother. You live totally a Gentile life, but seem the need to identify with Judaism, so you made up Styles, Branches to achieve this bogus way of observance. You grow up, and live like a JEW. Try it sometimes. This weeks Torah reading also speaks of Rebels, challenging God appointed Servant, Moses. Think about it, it is in Black & White.

As President of the State of Israel, Mr Katsav meets Christian dignitaries, too. As a Jew, he may not feel that a pope is particularly holy, or that a priest his spiritual father, but as a statesman, if not simply as a person who respects his fellow man, he addresses a pope as Your Holiness and a priest as Father. Likewise, he may not think that Ambassador X is any great shakes, but he calls him Your Excellency. It is not for the President to accredit or discredit everyone in his orbit.

When I compared a Chief Rabbi and a Pope, the point was not this or that individual, but the office-holder within the organization. I'm no expert on Pope Benedict, but he was 18 years old when the war ended and I've heard no complaints that he put Rabbi Lau or anyone else into a concentration camp. Jeff seems to be completely ignorant of or insensitive to the reality of life in the Third Reich for non-Jewish Germans. It's not like little Benedict's parents could enroll him in Bnei Akiva instead. "Rabbi" is a title of office, not a certificate of wisdom. Only too obviously!

What would you call a man who takes a magnificent tapestry and starts destroying it stitch by stitch, an artist or a vandal? The President has got it absolutely right.

To Jofie he is a rabbi, to Foxman he is a rabbi but believe me as a rabbi he is no rabbi.

Judaism as defined by Jewish Law (and nothing else!) is nothing so mundane or "trendy" as a "lifestyle," Rather it is a way of life that has kept our People alive throughout the ages while mightier nations who sought to eliminate us disappeared. Katsav is right.

I love the Orthodox, as much as I love my own Conservative chaverim, but to have a "stranglehold" on "Israeli society" is too horribly similar to the Ayatollahs of Iran.

Yoffie is NOT a Rabbi. It's that simple. Once he gets his smicha from an orthodox, established institution or the Israeli Rabbinut, the president should call him "rabbi", until then, the president is 100% correct in NOT calling him "rabbi".

Jewish Law is STILL the ONLY thing that defines Judaism.

Throughout the ages there have been many streams of Judaism, changing to fit the times. Some of them might have been pretty strange to Pres. Katsav. He is only a little party functionary despite his pretentious title and he has no right to make decisions of this nature. He should at least have displayed good manners and addressed the man as he wanted to be addressed.

Well said Mr president. A Rabbi is only someone who lives his life in accordance with principles not someone who sells out principles to claim titles he never qualified for. The ADL would do well to stop discriminating against Jews who take Judaism seriously

how sad that the president of Israel has more regard for the sanctity of the title Rabbi than a "representative" of the so- called modern orthodox.

President KAtzav chose to show respect for Judaiom. HIs respect for jewish values is not for sale. What could be a greater act of respect ?

Mr Katsav should be aware of the consequences of his deeds. As a President, how dare he says that he considers rabbis only those in accordance with his lifestyle. Does he consider Israel as his private courtyard ? I agree that such a statement should be a reason for a warning for the Jewish community as a whole. If tomorrow, rabbi Lau becomes president. What will happen ? Othodox Judaism doesn't want to recognize and to speak to non Orthodox Jews. We in diaspora suffer enough from this Orthodox monopoly, therefore I think Israelis, as a nation, should fight for pluralism because today the rabbinate refuses to bury Jews that it does not recognize as such. What will happen tomorrow. Will they refuse to let "other" Jews be teachers because they might difuse unholy thoughts. This is maybe exagerated but when groups make pulsa denura whenever a politician (ndlr Sharon) makes different choices, who can know what they'll do next. I leave it to your reflection.

Strange how the intolerant always muddle those they wish to sling mud at. President Katzav is not Rabbi Lau. Yet he too is unwilling to give a man a title that man is not entitled to. When and if there is a single proffessor at HUC who can pass a standard Rabbinic exam, I am sure that both the president and the rabbis will be willing to acknowledge kinowledge. But to insist on acknowlewging ignorance as wisdom is foolish. AS to the hatred of comparing a Rabbi to the Pope, suffice it to see who was in a concentration camp when the present pope was in the HJ, to see the ranpant dishonesty and virulent intolerance within the odious comparison

I think it must genuinely be strange for an Orthodox Jew to call a man who doesn't observe the Sabbath "Rabbi". I grew up in a reform synagogue in the US. It was great because my father refused to go to the orthodox or conservative synagogue with my mother, so she opted to sign the family up in the Reform Synagogue. This way at least we got something which was better than nothing. I definitely acknowledge that. Now when I go there, and the Rabbi drives to the synagogue on Saturday morning, doesn't cover his head and sings along with the organist and bad-choir, I have to keep myself from laughing at the spectacle. I still call the Rabbi there "Rabbi", but I cringe. I sort of wonder sometimes why study Judaism and become a Rabbi if you aren't really going to follow it?

Which Reform Jews in Israel? the total number of Reform jews in Israel , together with the conservatives number less than one tenth of a percent of the Israeli population. Or do you count all those who attend cultural events asnd tours as active members too?

President Katsav's job is to represent Israel--not himself. Therefore, he should set an example for the country and especially our youth--he should respect all fellow Jews. SHAME on President Katsav.

I'm afraid this is a foretaste of the conflict we'll witness if Rabbi Lau is elected president. Abroad, Orthodox rabbis have already made scandals by refusing to participate in public events with Christians who were born Jewish. In this case I don't mean to impugn Rabbi Lau's good name, but he is part of a system, the rabbinical establishment ("the mansion of the Lord has many rooms"), just as the Pope is part of the Church establishment.

"he was brought up to address as "rabbi" only those ordained in accordance with the lifestyle he maintains, and that the president is not obligated to recognize Reform rabbis until the State of Israel does so." But the president IS obligated to represent the entire State of Israel and work for unity with and support from World Jewry in all its forms. In refusing to address Reform rabbis by their proper title, he is proving that he unfit to serve in his present capactiy. Either he "grows up" or he must be replaced.

I think Katsav's rejection of Rabbi Yoffee is truly offensive...the Reform movement has done wonderful things in Israel and should not receive a 'slap in the face' for the wrong reasons. we have enough to argue about with outsiders, it would be nice if we could show respect for our fello Jews.

Israel is always insistent that Diaspora Jews make aliyah. Still, President Katsav has no problem insulting the Jewishness of a leading rabbi in the Reform movement, when even a leading US Orthodox rabbi says he should refer to Yoffe as "rabbi." When do we Jews stop shunning and insulting each other? This is a perfect example of the stranglehold Orthodoxy has over Israeli society, and how its bigotry poisons everything between the different groups of Jews. Our infighting will ultimately be our own doing.